Talk:Creationism/Archive 1

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I've tried to adhere to the Wiki nature in this morning's edit of Creationism. I accept that the dominant view is anti-Creationist and content myself merely with labeling the critique as such. I have restored much of the original points (as well as memory serves) and pointed out that objections to Creationism are mainly against Sudden Creationism. The argument against ID seems (here, at least) to be only that it's a religious tenet rather than a scientific hypothesis.

My aim is to summarize and highlight the various arguments, rather than to put forth my own view as right. This is my best effort at achieving NPOV, and I'm sure that any unconscious bias which has slipped through will be boldly corrected by others. --User:Ed Poor

2

What's the ? It is not mainstream Christian theology; I'm sure that the Catholic and the majority of Presbyterian denominations, for example, do not accept Creationism. Acceptance of Creationism is highly related to biblical literalism; many conservative (as opposed to fundamentalist) Christians do not believe in biblical literalism. GregLindahl

Source of claim: Gallup poll.

What makes you think it's not mainstream theology? Very few of the religious leaders I've talked to reject Creationism. And the only survey I've seen (reference quoted far below) says 85% of Americans believe it, either as Sudden Creationism or Intelligent Design.

Oops! I thought I put that reference here. Maybe it's on a different Talk page, unless it got accidentally deleted. User:Ed Poor

It's at Evolution Poll

I gave 2 examples of why I suspect it isn't a view held by a majority of Christians. You did read my entire paragraph, right? As for your %, I don't consider Intelligent Design to be Creationism: it is not falsifiable. You should realize that defining the terms is a very important part of any disagreement, and NPOV applies to that too. GregLindahl

I'm confused: how is falsifiability related to which school of thought is included in Creationism? ID is the branch of creationism that accepts the fossil record. Creationism is rejected by most scientists, because (they say) it is not falsifiable. Am I missing something? User:Ed Poor

I think you're confusing Christian theology with theology in general, and U.S. Christian theology with general Christian theology. Most other world theologies accept evolution, and most Christian theologies outside the U.S. do, as well. --User:Dmerrill

3

If you want the Creationism page to be an argument that Creationism in all its forms is wrong or unscientific, why not say so and be done with it? Otherwise, let's make an Evolution Debate page.

I think when presenting a theory, we should explain why its adherents believe it.

Also, I think there's an attempt to identify Sudden Creationism with Creationism. It's not the clear majority view, according to the only survey I ever heard of. Surely the omission of Intelligent Design is not a deliberate attempt to deceive.

Come on, gentlemen. Where's that NPOV you're always talking about?

4

The number of people who believe something has not historically had much correlation with whether that thing was true.

Even something so easily falsifiable as Aristotle's theory of motion was once believed by the vast majority of authorities. The trouble is, no one before Galileo ever bothered to check it.

(It turned out that sufficiently dense bodies fall with a speed that is proportional to how long they've been falling -- not how heavy they are. So a five-pound cannonball and a ten-pound cannonball hit the ground at the same time, while other objects such as a feather reach will have already reached their terminal velocities.)

Sorry to butt in, especially since I don't have anything to say on the topic of creationism per se, but the trouble with the above stated "fact" of Aristotle's theory of motion is that no one ever bothers to check it. I'm afraid I'm at work, not my home, so I don't have access to the materials, but I think you'll find that Aristotle himself wrote that in a "vacuum," all objects would fall at the same rate... but since Aristotle thought the idea of a "vacuum" was ludicrous, he didn't really include this in his work. For most every-day experience, when we're dealing with things with a density much less than lead, it is in fact true that lighter materials fall slower. Of course, we couldn't make planes, etc., if we didn't understand the "real" way things worked, but then Aristotle was never trying to make planes... he was trying to describe the observed world with regular laws.

Many people seem to like to believe that there have been a great number of truly stupid people in the past, who believed truly stupid things for truly stupid reasons. It's more the case, in my opinion, that people have always done the best they could with the information they had until raw chance enabled them to see a little more clearly than their predecessors. So, it's not a very wise idea to take a high-horse view with respect to how stupid everyone is.

Sorry, I meant no disrepect to Aristotle. No doubt the intellectuals in the Roman Catholic Church misunderstood him. It was really the medieval interpretation of Aristotle's views that I meant. I should have mentioned Galileo's foray into church politics -- how a committee not under the pope's direct control hassled Galileo for reporting some of his astronomical discoveries. I'm no longer sure what any of this has to do with creationism. We need a topic called the quest for truth or something like that. --User:Ed Poor

Well, Ed, since you put it like that, feel free to read some Pierre Duhem on medieval physics. They were a tad smarter than you're giving them credit for, Catholic Church and all. Stanley Jaki is a nice introduction. --MichaelTinkler

5

"Neologisms like "scientific creationism" and "intelligent design theory" are regarded by the vast majority of practising scientists, theologians and philosophers of science as meaningless.

The names of the theories aren't what are regarded as meaningless, are they? Perhaps crucial elements of the theories are regarded as meaningless. (E.g., perhaps no good sense can be given to the notion of creation ex nihilo.) In any case, probably the more important thing to mention is that the theories, insofar as they do seem to be meaningful at all, seem to be unsupported and unverifiable. (I can maintain that the theories are unverifiable but, disagreeing with verificationism, believe them to be more-or-less meaningful--just false. Far from all scientists, theologians, and philosophers of science are verificationists.)

How about: "A very large ['vast' pours salt in the wound] majority of practising scientists, theologians and philosophers of science believe scientific creationism and intelligent design theory [identifying these as 'neologisms' in this context is to dismiss them]--terms many of them cannot use without shuddering--to be untenable, either because they are scientifically unsupportable and unverifiable, or because they are outright nonsense." --User:LMS

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In reference to the following:

[We need a way to sum up the situation that does not make it seem as though Wikipedia officially endorses evolutionary science, as the above does. (Whoever gets the last word seems the victor, eh?) Yes, that sounds ridiculous, but that's an illustration of lack of bias.]

One can carry the "lack of bias" mantra too far. If Wikipedia didn't officially endorse evolutionary science, it would be derelict in its duty to educate. Its only obligation to non-bias is to accurately report that some people choose not to believe in evolution. It should also not call those people idiots, or otherwise make derogatory comments about them (the word "nonsense" is probably a bit strong, though I happen to believe that, and I like the rest of LMS's phrasing). But it most definitely should report accurately that evolution, as endorsed with near unanimity among educated biologists, accurate describes the biological world, and that creationism does not. The article on Numerology is a good example: it clearly shows why it doesn't make sense, accurately identifies it as nonscientific, and merely reports that some people believe it. --LDC

I'd like to make a distinction between

(a) reporting the findings of science, e.g., "science has found..." or "it's the univeral opinion of scientists that..." or "Biologists unanimously agree that..." or "according to science..."

and

(b) requiring students to voice agreement with something their religion teaches against. Nearly half of American adults disagree with evolution altogether. Almost as many disagree with the Theory of Evolution per se and want the creationist view taught -- if not labelled "science", at least as not denigrated as "wrong" or "contrary to fact". --User:Ed Poor

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Ed: The creationist view isn't science -- its religion. Religion has no place in a science class -- religion belongs in the religion class (if the school has one.)

I beg to differ. Intelligent Design seems scientific to me. Questions about falsifiability certainly are relevant in a science class. I'd hate to see a student marked down or punished for saying, "You're teaching that God had nothing to do with the creation of human beings, and I just cannot accept that." This would constitute at worst, a religious comment on science, which is protected in America by the First Amendment (free speech, freedom of religion). --User:Ed Poor

Action by God is not a scientific explanation. It may be a perfectly valid religious explanation, but it is not a scientific explanation. Scientific explanations do not involve supernatural entities such as divine beings. Anything with God in it is not science. A student who wrote on a science exam claiming God created humans should get zero for the question -- its a science exam, not a piece of paper to write your own religious opinions on. -- User:SJK

• I don't see why action by God should automatically be considered unscientific. Infection caused by an invisible substance was considered unscientific in the 1800s, although in retrospect we might say that the refusal then to even consider the matter then was itself unscientific.

• I see nothing in the scientific method specifically excluding supernatural forces as being in the domain of science.

• I have heard that there is a body of learning known as the scientific study of religion.

• A student who wrote that God created humans, while acknowledging the accepted scientific theory should get extra credit, not a zero, provided they dealt with the issue of falsifiability.

--User:Ed Poor

And besides, suppose the majority of students believed that the Earth was a flat disk, and said that believing that the earth was semi-spherical was against there religion. Should we teach flat-earthism as equally valid as round-earthism? Or suppose they thought the theory of relativity was a lie (something which, by the way, a lot of Nazis did) or that it was against their religion -- does it follow that we should teach the view that the theory of relativity, and not denigrate it as false? Suppose they thought that mechanistic physics (as in Gallileo, Descartes, Newton, etc.) was the work of the devil, and that the universe was really teleological (as in Aristotle) -- should we teach this also?

If a majority believed such outlandish views, it would behoove a science teacher to be polite, saying rather "science has found..." than "You are wrong." or "Sit down and shut up." Then, turn the discussion into an examination of the scientific method, falsifiability, et al. A student has the right to reject science's standards of falsifiability. Do they lose that right upon entering a science classroom? --User:Ed Poor

Well, if they reject science's standards of falsifiability, what are they doing studying science? If you wish to study a field, you must accept the field's basic presuppotions, at least for the purposes of studying it. (What one believes in one's own time is one's own business.) -- User:SJK

There are valid reasons for studying a field without accepting its basic presuppositions. Curiousity is one, desire to challenge a premise is another. The decision to exclude supernatural causes may one day prove to have been arbitrary. Suppose, for example that life after death is proven, or the efficacy of prayer. I believe discussions on the limits of science are germane to the study of science, which is modern man's primary means of extending the body of knowledge. --User:Ed Poor

The fact is that creationism is rejected by almost all persons in the relevant scientific fields. Evolution, on the contrary, is accepted by almost all persons in these fields as scientific facts. Schools should teach the scientific facts according to expert opinion. If some students disapprove of science on religious grounds -- that is there problem. -- User:SJK

8

I don't think that what I asked carries the lack of bias policy too far. I very strongly disagree with your stated view that Wikipedia would be derelict in its duty to educate by not officially endorsing evolutionary science. In fact, I really wonder why you say this. Insofar as education includes the teaching of values, as it does and should (I think), I don't think that Wikipedia should engage in education; it should engage, rather, in reporting. Compare these two claims of yours:

1. But it most definitely should report accurately that evolution, as endorsed with near unanimity among educated biologists, accurate describes the biological world, and that creationism does not.
2. The article on Numerology is a good example: it clearly shows why it doesn't make sense, accurately identifies it as nonscientific, and merely reports that some people believe it.

The Numerology example doesn't illustrate what you want it to illustrate. The Numerology article does not state that Numerology is false. It states that it is nonscientific, which (I am supposing) is uncontroversial. In precisely the same way, I think we should not claim that evolution accurately describes the biological world and creationism does not. There are many good reasons, that we can review if you wish, that it is far preferable to say, instead: most scientists embrace evolutionary theory and reject creationism. This gets the idea across.

I don't think encyclopedias should be in the business of doing anything other than stating facts that sane, thinking people--among whom I would include, yes, creationists--can agree upon. If not on the subject matter itself, then they can usually agree on how competing views are characterized; or at least they can agree to allow each side to be permitted to characterize its own view sympathetically and to criticize other views. When an article becomes contentious, I think we should "go meta."

Please don't forget to distinguish between the two main currents of Creationism: Intelligent Design, which accepts the authenticity of the fossil record and the mechanism of natural selection; and Sudden Creationism. --Ed Poor

Why should there be any resistance to this? I'm very curious to know. Do you want to have a (another) debate about this on neutral point of view? --User:Larry Sanger

P.S. I find your resistance to the word "nonsense" puzzling, and it indicates that, perhaps, you aren't entirely understanding the nonbias policy the way I understand it. I think it is all-important that the claim of nonsense is attributed to someone, rather than asserted to be the case by the author of the article itself. When it is attributed to someone, it immediately becomes uncontroversial and straightforwardly fact-stating (no matter how irritating to creationists). --User:LMS

9

Sorry, but strong disagreement with the above. Neutrality is about stating facts rather than opinions, and the existence of evolution is as close to a fact as we are ever going to get. Certainly it is going to be taken as such on virtually every biology page written, because the phylogeny of organisms is important, and it would be an unbelievable headache to have to qualify it in every case to avoid offending a minority of people who are wrong. I say giving fair treatment to anything so unanimously decreed as false by workers in the field is silly and makes a mockery of the concept of objectivity. Or should we also make allowances for the flat earth hypothesis on our geography and astronomy pages?

As for creationists still being thinking and sane people, well - yes, they probably are. But that doesn't mean that the hypothesis is any less ridiculous. Aristotle believed in physics that can be disproved with a bowl and some water. And what will we do with the views of historical revisionists? --JG

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Perhaps--consider the possibility a moment--it is possible, in most articles that elaborate evolutionary theory and processes, simply to use a few words that imply that the claims in question are the views and the results of work by scientists. Then creationists will have nothing to do complain about.

You say "neutrality is about stating facts rather than opinions." Well, that's a quick-and-easy way to put it. It is more accurate to say that, where there is significant disagreement on a point, then neutrality demands that the disagreement be fairly characterized. Be careful to understand what this does and does not imply. It does imply that evolutionary science not be stated as fact and creation science as obviously false (rather, it implies that these views be described as being held by certain groups of people, and then the public can draw their own conclusions; you don't mind that they draw their own conclusions, do you?). It does not imply that, whenever you mention anything about evolutionary theory, you say something to the effect that creationists disagree. It does not imply that you outright assert, "Evolution is just a hypothesis." This too would be hugely controversial. You would be fully in your rights to say that most scientists fully believe evolution to be a very well-substantiated theory, as well-substantiated as many less controversial theories.

In general, and most importantly, this principle does not imply that our articles have to look like we think that evolutionary theory and creationism are equally weighted, and we (Wikipedia article authors) can't make up our minds. If you think that's what it implies, you don't understand the principle. Don't you think it's possible not to take an official stand, and yet still very strongly be in favor of one of the views? Of course it is. Why would you resist doing this, then, when you can (after all) say that most respected scientists reject creationism? It seems you want to cow creationists and people whose minds are not made up--as silly as they might seem to you and me--into believing what you believe. That's never the right way to go about it. Is there something wrong with letting people draw their own conclusions?

The Wikipedia articles on controversial subjects are not likely to change any minds. The kooks will go on believing kooky things, the rational people will go on being rational, and we can take enormous pride in reporting accurately on the situation.

As to historical revisionists, sometimes they're right, eh? And even when they're not, sometimes their views need to be reported--if only as a fascinating sociological phenomenon. --User:LMS

11

The problem is that evolution is not controversial, not among anyone except the misinformed and those with an agenda. I honestly think that continual treatment of evolution as if it is the consensus of an extreme majority of scientists, rather than fact, is misleading. Do you think that it is a good idea to prefix every page with such a statement? "Most scientists now believe that Calcium has an atomic weight of 40.078..." It's silly, but if not, then topics like evolution are going to appear strongly singled out as questionable.

Historical revisionists are probably more important even. Yes, they can be interesting, but statement of their opinions as anything even resembling potential fact isn't just wrong, it is potentially offensive. To take the extreme example, even if it invokes Godwin's law against myself, what do you suppose would be the response if we said the holocaust was something widely considered to have occured by most historians, rather than something that occured? I'd consider that an awful legitamization of some of the worst opinions available. Or would you throw out such claims and keep those of other revisionists, less offensive but certainly no more valid? I say the best ground for decision is on merit; meritless arguments should not need consideration, unless we want to pretend all of reality is an opinion. And those probably include young earth creationism.

--User:Josh Grosse

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I'm with Josh here. Evolution is not controversial within the scientific community. As someone who has spent the best part of ten years researching creationism, I can attest that Creationists are not crazies or ignorant (far from it in many cases). However, in accordance with the views of 99% of theologians, scientists and philosophers, they are wrong. We should state so emphatically. To do otherwise is to be spineless. Evolution has traditionally been singled out among scientific areas and people are more likely to use accomodationist language so as to placate a vocal minority. This, I assure you, is contrary to the aims of any good project (particularly if it is haunted by the shades of the original Encyclopediestes). Evolution is a fact, natural selection is currently one of the few scientific mechanisms by which evolution can occur. Move on.

--User:Jmlynch

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Hear! Hear! I personally admire philosophers a great deal, study philosophy, and enjoy throwing the monkey wrench of doubt into common beliefs as much as anyone. But when philosophers and others go beyond rational skepticism to justify what are simply and clearly mistakes, one should throw at them what one personally believes to be a brick, and assuage one's conscience with the assurance that they are free to believe otherwise. --LDC

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I'll reply later, but I would like to see someone reply, dispassionately, to my arguments. I had some, if you didn't notice. You're all rational people; you should be able to appreciate my efforts. --User:LMS

I think we all agree with your arguments, and even with your value judgement that Wikipedia articles should be fact-stating and unbiased (two very independent goals). I think our disagreements here are with (1) the standard by which we decide that something is a fact, and (2) the extent of implied bias in fact-stating prose. There is no such thing as a fact without a standard by which it is judged to be a fact--even simple observational statements like "Fred claims that grass is green" imply that someone at some point judged this to be a fact because he observed Fred saying it (thus "direct observation" being the standard), and might be argued by someone. I happen to think "agreed upon with near unanimity by persons educated in the field" is a sufficient criterion for factualness. Sure, that will occasionally require us to change when some new discovery upsets an established fact, but so what? Any standard will require change--so why not choose one that's useful. Even your stricter standard of "totally uncontroversial" is no guarantee against future change.

Further, one can easily propagandize by stating only facts. A full page of "Creationists believe that...because..." with no reference to contradictory evidence or any other claim is clearly a propaganda piece, even though it happens to be fact-stating. The goal of eliminating bias requires more than merely being fact-stating. It also requires us to judge the rhetorical effect of an article, and to add rebutting facts where needed. I also believe that it is fundamentally impossible to eliminate all bias, and the all readers of any purportedly-factual article should understand that all authors have biases, and read in that context.

I hold the additional value judgments that Wikipedia should be lucid and useful. I believe that being overly afraid of bias sometimes compromises those goals, by cluttering articles with reportage on clearly useless beliefs held by a few minorities. This latter is certainly open to argument. Yes, an article specifically about Creationism (which is by its very nature a controversial belief) should probably stick to making claims about who said what, how many believe what, and how such beliefs compare to other scientific and theological beliefs. Reporting on a controversy as a controversy is a worthwhile thing for an encyclopedia to do. The articles should also point out arguments on both sides, but we should further report what are actual arguments and what are simply unsupported claims, because that is useful. Even the article on evolution should probably mention that there are a few people who choose to dispute it, and point to the article on Creationism, though it should otherwise be written simply and clearly by treating it as a the ordinary uncontroversial fact it is.

General articles on biology, on the other hand, should simply treat evolution as uncontroversial, because no serious biologist disagrees, and failure to do so compromises understanding of the subject. Articles about radiocarbon dating or tree rings should not be cluttered with an unnecessary reference to the fact that a few folks happen to believe that God placed all of the old rocks and trees here 6000 years ago, and is just trying to confuse us. --LDC

15

Can someone tell me where the matter involved in the Big Bang came from? If not, you will have to cut creationism in one stripe or color or another, some slack. All creationism is not biblical literalism. It is, however, in every case, an effort to arrive at a rational answer which science has so far not been able to provide ie, where everything came from. This is not Evolution/Talk, but Creationism/Talk. As something better than half the world populace embraces some kind of creationist explanation for the beginning of things, then we are not talking about appeasing a vocal minority here. We are talking about acknowledging what we don't know - the first step to finding out...

The simple belief that the world as it exists was created by a supernatural being is not what we are talking about here. The word "creationist" is never used to mean that; the word means denial of biological evolution, and that's what we're talking about. What you describe is merely Theism. --LDC

16

Let's get this straight once and for all (I have to do this with students every semester). Firstly, the Big Bang or any other theory of cosmogenesis has nothing to do with evolutionary thinking. Cosmologists could theorize about the universe and it would not dent the theory of evolution one bit. Secondly, and almost most importantly, creationists don't really care about cosmology - it's the proposition that humans evolved that creates problems for them (a proposition that is indepndant of cosmology). Lastly, theories of abiogenesis also have nothing to do with evolution. Evolutionary theory explains how the diversity of life on Earth came to it's present state, not how life got here and not how the universe got here.

Creationism is not an 'effort to arrive at a rational answer'. Rationality has nothing to do with it. As any theologian will tell you, the project of rationalizing the existence of a creator has fallen into disrepute for various reasons. Creationists can believe whatever they like about the history of life, but that does not mean they make scientific statements.

--User:Jmlynch Jim I am talking about creationism, not about evolution (pro or con). Did you notice that? Humans arrive at answers through reason. Use of reason = 'effort to arrive at a rational answer.' Let's get this straight once and for all - creationism, as a holding, is not necesarily either pro- or anti-evolution. That is the area where we see the most frequent fireworks and high-profile clashes, but please quit cofusing the two. Again - this is creationism/Talk.

'effort to arrive at a rational answer' = "I can see what caused z; y caused it. I can see what caused y; x caused it. I have investigated until I am blue in the face, and cannot tease out of the universe what caused a. Maybe whatever caused it is not natural, but super-natural. Maybe that's why I can't get at it." This may not be scientific method, but it is how people rationalize. Ie, it is an effort to arrive at rational answer.

This is where creationism as a subject comes from. Then we later on down the road get into such things as oral tradition, legends, myths, scriptures, and other means of passing down the stories about the supernatural. Never proved nor disproved, neither provable nor disprovable by scientific means, they are, by definition, unscientific. Now there are some parts of this tradition which seem to run afoul of scientific evidence. The most notable of these in recent time involves timescale of this planet and origin of species. When the scientist points this out to the dyed-in-the-wool hardline fundamental biblical literalist, the irresistible force meets the immoveable object. At the same time, bits and pieces of biblical history are verfied by archaeology daily. So, "See! The Bible is the infallible word of God!" and the scientist cringes.

BUT it is not necessarily the case that unscientific = wrong, any more that it is the case that proof of bible history a = proof of the whole bible.

To say that creationists believe that someone created things in the beginning is not to say that they beleive, 1-for-1, that SCIENCE in its infinite wisdom, ultimate arbiter of all human knowledge, is wrong. It is to say - "we believe these extra-scientific facts to be true." And who is to gainsay them?

When writing about evolution, that other topic, explain what theories it encompasses.

When writing about creationism, explain what theories it encompasses.

When writing about cosmologies, mention creationism. It happens to be one such.

Why is it necessary to flay the creationist? Has someone here disproven that a supreme influence, possibly an intelligent one, created the universe? Has someone read the report of a researcher who has? I think not. It's unfalsifiable. So it's unscientific. That does not make it wrong, or even irrational. "The geologic record does not support a literal biblical version of planetary time scale and origin of species." So how does that invalidate creationism as an overall subject?

17

LMS - I am with you 100%

and...

Blatantly stealing from Webster:

Main Entry: cre·a·tion·ism Pronunciation: -sh&-"ni-z&m Function: noun Date: 1880

a doctrine or theory holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing and usually in the way described in Genesis -- compare EVOLUTION

Hey LDC - how do mean creationism is "never" used to mean that the world as it exists was created by a supernatual being?

OK, then, describe that as another sense of the word. The most common meaning of the word is as your definition above describes it: that various forms of life were created, as opposed to the belief that they evolved from a single earlier form. This is what a newspaper or magazine would generally mean when they describe someone as a "creationist writer" or something. If you choose to also use the word to mean mere theist, or to think of creationism as cosmology rather than biology, I suppose you're free to do so, but that's a second sense of the word, and perhaps separate articles should treat them as such. --LDC

If webster and I are wrong as to what the word means, then we'd better re-write the wikipedia article to reflect that creationism is only anti-evolutionism and nothing else. The defense rests. You guys divvy up creationism into different articles however you want. maybe there should be an article biology/creationism (how's that for an oxymoron?) and another (which is the branch under which I created this one) cosmology/creationism arrows pointed to see each other, see theism, etc. I don't have the time right now. Damn - I just realized my cookies have somehow been cleared. This has been AyeSpy raving on above. Did not mean to hide my light under a bushel...

Then the article is misleading: the very first sentence says that creationism is the belief that a supreme being "created the physical universe and all life contained therein." Make up your mind: if you are a calling it a cosmology, then you can't include life, because life evolved long after the birth of the universe. If you want to include life, then call it a biology and take your lumps from the evolutionists. --LDC

Larry's Big Reply

Before I reply, let me just say that if we can agree that creationism as it stands, apart perhaps from the fact that the evolutionist insists on having the last word, is adequately unbiased, then our dispute is probably academic. So--on with the academic dispute!

I totally agree with your guys' attitude toward creationism. I think it's silly nonsense, too. Let's get that straight--we don't need to debate the merits of the theory (unless Bruce wants to do so). Moreover, I am probably the biggest commonsense realist and defender of rationality here. If you think my position is rooted in anything like relativism, that is excellent evidence that you don't understand my position and that you need to re-read what I've written more carefully. Jimbo, too, is a realist and defender of rationality, and he shares my view (in generalities, at least), as you can see on neutral point of view. Gee, how can that be? Read on.

Why on earth would I wanna do that, Larry? It's not like I advocate Creationism as such or anything. I only tried to point out that beating on the creationists is counter-productive. - AyeSpy (aka BrucieBaby)

1. Is evolution controversial? Yes--to the public at large, which will be reading Wikipedia. No--to scientists. For whom are we writing? The public at large--and scientists. (Perhaps that's what causes our problem here.) Lee says: "General articles on biology, on the other hand, should simply treat evolution as uncontroversial, because no serious biologist disagrees, and failure to do so compromises understanding of the subject." I think this is wrong on two counts. First, while evolution is uncontroversial among serious biologists, it is controversial among an alarmingly large portion of the general public; you do them and yourselves no favors by ignoring this controversy. Second, I see no reason to believe that recognizing that nonbiologists do not accept evolution as fact in any way "undermines understanding" of evolution. It doesn't even undermine your real goal, of course, which is to get people to accept evolution instead of getting caught up in idiotic creationist nonsense. In fact, the opposite is true: by failing to recognize the controversy, you essentially alienate the people you most want to teach. You would prefer indoctrination, it seems.

I think you may overestimate the controversy over evolution in the general public, but I agree with your point wholeheatedly - AyeSpy

2. Will we have to qualify every statement, or even every page, with a statement to the effect that it is the view of scientists? No, of course not. Why not? Because it's not controversial to anyone. Will we have to highlight discredited minority views as prominently as scientific fact? Of course not.

3. If we do describe scientific fact as what is accepted by all or nearly all scientists, then how are we misleading anyone? The question, again, is how? Have we encouraged anyone to believe anything other than what you want them to believe? Where's the downside you all fear?

4. Josh writes: "Historical revisionists are probably more important even. Yes, they can be interesting, but statement of their opinions as anything even resembling potential fact isn't just wrong, it is potentially offensive." Josh, I am not saying that historical revisionism should be presented as "anything even resembling potential fact." I am saying that the view should be described and appropriately attributed. How does that imply that the opinions will be presented as "anything even resembling potential fact"? Please bear in mind that we can reserve plenty of room for attributed explanations of why mainstream historians regard various kinds of historical revisionism as so much hokum. Our including such explanations is absolutely essential to having an unbiased encyclopedia, by the way.

5. Josh again: "To take the extreme example, even if it invokes Godwin's law against myself, what do you suppose would be the response if we said the holocaust was something widely considered to have occured by most historians, rather than something that occured? I'd consider that an awful legitamization of some of the worst opinions available." I would say that this is a very poor illustration (i.e., a "straw man") of my position. I imagine we should first clearly present what is generally believed about the Holocaust; then, perhaps quite far down in the article, we should have a paragraph or two that says something to the effect that the above is accepted (in generalities anyway) by all but a very small handful of trained historians, called Holocaust deniers and revisionists, blah blah blah, and explain the facts of that. This then attributes the claims about the Holocaust in a perfectly appropriate way and also mentions the fact that there is another (very minority) view. At the same time, we can state that most historians (most people) find such revisionism not only obviously false, but extremely morally repugnant. I hope I am making my position clearer now.

6. Is my position "spineless"? Jmlynch thinks so: "in accordance with the views of 99% of theologians, scientists and philosophers, they are wrong. We should state so emphatically. To do otherwise is to be spineless. ... This, I assure you, is contrary to the aims of any good project (particularly if it is haunted by the shades of the original Encyclopediestes)." Well, as a modern-day encyclopedist who has thought for many, many hours about this stuff (even before I started working on an encyclopedia), I can "assure you" that our doing what I ask is not in the slightest "spineless." Well, so much for mutual assurances; now to arguments. I think I can understand your reason for thinking so. Your assumption appears to be that, if we do not explicitly declare something to be true, then the reader can draw certain inferences about us--such as that we wish to placate creationists, or that we think creationism might be scientifically respectable, or that we might be creationists ourselves, etc., etc. Well, no. Reasonable people do not draw such inferences when presented with unbiased texts. You yourself, Jim, would not typically draw such inferences--you know better, of course. Suppose that a history text adopted a policy of failing to identify Nazi scum as the murdering bastards they were--but simply reported the facts about what they did. Would it be reasonable to assume that the text's author(s) might just be willing to admit the possibility that the Nazis were upstanding citizens doing a service to Europe?

Factually, I have read some very dry and "non-judgemental" accounts, practically devoid of adjectives. They still gave me the heebeejeebees and I never thought for a moment the author favored the Nazis. - AyeSpy

-- The facts about what they did, simply reported, permit most readers to judge for themselves that the Nazis were in fact "murdering bastard scum". Readers who make the judgement that the Nazis were in fact "upstanding citizens doing a service to Europe" would probably not be influenced by the editor's stating his/her personal opinion to the contrary. Arguably, we are insulting the reader by assuming he/she needs to be "pushed" to see things our way. -- 27 Septenber 2001.

7. Are being fact-stating and unbiased independent goals? No: in order to be unbiased, you must be fact-stating. In particular, you must be very clear about how you word the facts about what various majority and minority positions are. I contrast (in the present context--not when I'm talking metaphysics & philosophy of language, where 'fact' is a technical term) fact with opinion; opinions can be correct (and thus fact-stating), but one identifies something as a fact to emphasize that it is not under dispute, and one identifies something as an opinion in order to emphasize that it is under dispute. If, in our evolution article, we say that evolution is a "proven fact," while this is no doubt true (i.e., evolutionary theory has met ordinary standards of scientific evidence), the force of saying it is that evolution is simply not under dispute. Well, it is under dispute by your readers, guys. And (damnably) that's a fact. You aren't going to change their minds, or make the world otherwise any safer for rationality and science (which I love at least as much as you do), by explicitly averring that evolution is a fact and creationism is false. Actually, what you do is close off the avenues of discourse by doing so, setting up the less-rational folk in an antagonistic stance toward you, and make it harder to help them see the light. (Think of this as intellectual diplomacy.)

8. "Further, one can easily propagandize by stating only facts." Very true; that's why we shouldn't refer to my position as merely that articles should be fact-stating. They should be unbiased. I've explained what I mean by this in many different places many different times. "A full page of 'Creationists believe that...because...' with no reference to contradictory evidence or any other claim is clearly a propaganda piece, even though it happens to be fact-stating." I totally agree, and I will thank you for not setting up further caricatures of my view.

9. "I also believe that it is fundamentally impossible to eliminate all bias, and the all readers of any purportedly-factual article should understand that all authors have biases, and read in that context." But whenever we can identify bias, we can eliminate it--one way or another, and usually by going "meta." Give yourself some credit; people are creative; we can think of ways to eliminate bias when we spot it. (If you're still not convince, I suspect this is because you have a useless, impossibly-restrictive concept of bias. Personally, I prefer my concepts to be useful.)

10. "I believe that being overly afraid of bias sometimes compromises those goals, by cluttering articles with reportage on clearly useless beliefs held by a few minorities." Why think that articles will be cluttered with views held by minorities? If they are minority views, they will not be highlighted and ubiquitous in the same way that the majority views will be. That's as it should be. No one can reasonably complain.

My conclusion:

We should not impose our values on other thinking people. You are all liberal-minded people, I trust--not liberal politically, necessarily, but liberal in the sense that you want to free minds. I enjoin you to think carefully about the best way to achieve this. By failing to take stands on controversial issues, we aren't demonstrating weakness--in fact, we are demonstrating the strength of our faith in the minds of our fellow human beings. We should let them arrive at their own conclusions. We should trust them to use their own minds--just as you want to be trusted. More benighted souls than our enlightened selves will appreciate our stance and be more apt to listen when we hand down the truth.

I don't know if I can make my case any more completely...

No need to... - AyeSpy

Larry

19

Yes, well said. Perhaps my initial reaction comes from a different mindset about the "audience" of our work, since I generally think of encyclopedias as things used by schoolchildren, or adults looking for quick explanations of things outside their fields of expertise. Your view seems more appropriate to a collaboratively built growing record of facts, usable as a resource even for those with expertise. I certainly cannot argue with that vision, or your method for achieving it.

I would like to expand upon something you mentioned in passing that I think is important: you mentioned that an article might written largely as though uncontroversial, followed by a mention that the text above is believed by a majority, but controversial in that others believe something else (which is then linked to). I think this is a great method of doing it, and if using this technique meets with your approval I wholeheartedly endorse it as a way to write both lucidly and without bias. This seems appropriate for the article on the majority view, while the article on the minority view might be written more from the minority's own viewpoint (though careful to remain fact-stating).

Finally, I have encountered some places where I think minor amounts of open bias in an otherwise factual article is useful and not very controversial, so some simple method of doing those appropriately is needed. The specific example I have in mind is my pages on poker, which are full of opinions like "X makes a more interesting game than Y", or "game X is best played with betting structure Y", or "clay chips are easier to use than thin plastic ones", and so on. I originally wrote most of this text as a potential book which was full of my personal opinions. In the process of Wikifying it have removed opinions that were more significant and might be more controversial ("many casinos have rule X, which is stupid and counterproductive"), but those other little tidbits are the kind of thing I think someone learning the game of poker from a text such as this will want to know, and I think it's a waste of time to reword them all into "many poker players believe..." form. Of course if someone does object at some point (perhaps a manufacturer of plastic chips?), then rewording and pointing to other opinions might be necessary, but until then, I think they are clean and useful as they are. --LDC

20

Scientists believing in evolution as part of their work (basically all geologists and a good chunk of biologists) have made themselves easy targets for the religious loonies.

Evolution as taught and published in research papers, up to about 1980 was almost always a crock of unscientific shit, based more on bizarre ethical and religious ideas that hardly anyone belived, than on any observational basis, or any relationship with other well-founded scientific theories. That it took a bunch of loonies with no interest in science to put these failings on the agenda is very sad.

Since then evolutionary scientists have started to put their house in order. They still have a way to go, but some of the leading biologists and geologists are now researching evolution in a scientific way, and a genuine scientific theory of evolution is starting to emerge.

In teaching, especially at high school level, evolution is still stuck firmly in the 17th century. I really mean that. Although the name of Darwin is always mentioned, his ideas hardly ever are, and are never taken seriously, let alone some of the more modern ideas.

Maybe some of this should make it into the article (or maybe a different article about history of theory of evolution). Obviously it is not encyclopedia material as is, someone would have to do a complete rewrite from scratch.

21

I'm a big Steven Jay Gould fan. It's not so much because he's a brilliant geologist/biologist. Too be honest, I don't know whether he's brilliant, sort of good at it, or just plain incompetant. I like him more because he's the sort of person to write half a book about .400 hitters in baseball and essays on the Defenstration of Prague, and do a very fine job of it. I don't unswervingly trust everything he says, though, because I have no background and little comparable research to base it on. But the only mention I've ever heard him make of creationism is interesting, and I think it should be brought up here.

According to him, in The Panda's Thumb, I think it was, Creationism is an almost entirely American phenonmenon. He claims that most Europeans, even the most stringently religious, entirely embrace Evolution. John Paul II very nearly ( though not quite ) called evolution incontrovertible awhile ago. Since the only time I've ever been to Europe was a very bitter and unhappy one month stay in Oxford, with not much theological conversation, I was wondering whether or not this could be confirmed by someone who knows more about what they're talking about than myself. As for the rest of the world, I'd imagine that East Asia and India isn't very fertile creationist ground, and I've got no clue how Islam treats the issue.

Yes it is true that evolution is not controversial in Europe. I grew up in Ireland, one of the most conservatively Catholic countries in Europe (though much less so now) and in my religion class we were thought that people did in fact evolve from apes, and that at some point God decided they were far enough along and gave them a soul. --User:Eob

I'd imagine that if the world view is significantly different than the American view, that probably would affect Wikipedia's policy in some way. The way I look at the matter, is that Darwinism, Natural Selection, or whatever you want to call it ( Evolution, which I've been unfortunately using so far, is a gross misnomer ) is a scientific law. Plain and simple. What goes up, must come down. The sun rises in the east. E equals MC squared, and species diversify according to rules of competition, climatic changes, genetics, and other such things that are well known. Those very few biologists who are strict creationist set out in the field of biology with the express intent of disproving evolution, and still have no basis for the 7 days nonsense. As for the original amino acids and divinely inspired puddles of goo, I just personally don't care whether or not god or anyone else got involved. But that's just me. User:Seckstu

Hear, hear. Creationism is a crackpot theory and should be presented as such as long as no shred of evidence can be presented. --Pinkunicorn

The latter is entirely the wrong approach. Yes, creationism is a crackpot theory. No, it should not be presented as such, precisely because there are many people, some of them quite intelligent people who would like to make up their own minds for themselves, thank you very much, who disagree that it's a crackpot theory. It is not our job to convince the world of the truth. It is our job to present the facts about what the theory says, about what evidence there is (or is not) for the theory, about who promulgates it and their arguments and who opposes it and their arguments--and do all this in an unbiased fashion--and let people make up their own minds for themselves. If we do this, we will gain the respect of everyone, including the vast majority of those who think that creationism is a crackpot theory. --User:LMS

22

I think this article should be clearly about (so-called) "scientific creationism". If I hear the word creationism, that is what pops into my mind. At present the article begins with a statement which many people who believe in evolution might agree with:

Creationism is a philosophical or religious position grounded in the idea that a supreme being or ultimate mover literally created the physical universe and all life contained therein. Within the Judeo-Christian tradition, this creation is taken to be ex nihilo (out of nothing), but some Biblical scholars have argued that this comes from a mistranslation of Genesis.

Also, I agree it is primarily an American phenomena, but it has spread to other parts of the world, e.g. Australia. I once had a substitute English teacher a few years ago (back when I was in high school) who was a "scientific" creationist. I also not so long ago saw ads posted up around Macquarie University (my uni) advertising lectures run by Answers-in-Genesis, an American creationist organization. But I'd still say it has a lot less support in Australia than in the US. -- User:Simon J Kissane

23

Moved this to /Talk 1 October 2001:

"[We need a way to sum up the situation that does not make it seem as though Wikipedia officially endorses evolutionary science, as the above does. (Whoever gets the last word seems the victor, eh?) Yes, that sounds ridiculous, but that's an illustration of lack of bias.]" Moved from talk:Main_Page:

Don't know where this goes, since James Ussher doesn't have a page yet.... does anyone know if he's the guy that argue that God, when he created the Earth & all its animals and plants, etc., also created fossils of animals that no longer existed--created them *as* fossils, which had never been actual alive animals? Anyone know what that school of thought was called?

You're thinking of Philip Henry Gosse, who wrote a book called Omphalos: An Attempt to Untie The Geological Knot that expounded this idea. It crashed and burned in such a firestorm of criticism from both scientists and biblical literalists that I don't think it ever gained a groovy name a la uniformitarianism or catastrophism. Gosse called it "prochronism", but I don't think that got into the language. It's generally referred to as "Omphalos" after the book, or sometimes "in situ creation" -- User:Paul Drye

24

I'd like to pose a brief, very honest question concerning falsifiability as it relates to creationism and evolution. Based on the falsifiability article, I can easily agree that Creationism is about as falsifiable as the very existence of God, for about the same reasons. But how is evolution falsifiable? The experiment itself would have to last those same billions of years, wouldn't it? --Wesley, a Christian who has wondered about this for a while......

Lots of potential observations would falsify evolution: for example, finding reverse-dated fossils (i.e., finding a fossil of a species dated older than the species from which it apparently descended); finding colorful sexual-selection markings on a species without vision (like blind fish and moles); finding a species so bizarre and different from all others that it has no plausible ancestor (say, finding one that doesn't use DNA/RNA); finding a species with a new complex major body organ or apparatus that is totally absent from its closest ancestors. That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but there are probably others. --LDC

I think the issue is more delicate than that: Darwinism is ultimately a probabilistic theory. Things that increase fitness are more likely to happen, but they don't have to happen, nor are things that decrease fitness impossible to happen. There are virtually no rules in biology without exception, there are just some things that are vastly more likely than others, and for good reasons. Not all species are well-adapted: in fact, all species die out after a short while, so observing a particularly mis-adapted species could just mean that it is in the last phase of its life cycle.

Supporting or falsifying probabilistic theories is a difficult matter. If I show you a die, and claim it is loaded, how can you test this hypothesis without cutting the die in pieces? You have to roll it repeatedly, but what counts as a falsification? Statisticians come up with criteria of course, but they are not as hard and fast as one would like, and they are difficult to apply to biology, because Darwinism is not advanced enough predict the answer to a question like "How likely is it that a species living exclusively in water would have lungs as opposed to gills". If Darwinism could compute a probability, then the statistician could attempt to check it against the evidence. Darwinism is a qualitative, not even a quantitative, probabilistic theory at this point, and it is truly tough to falsify those. --AxelBoldt

The mistake you're making here is assuming that evolution is one theory. It is not. It is literally thousands of theories, each one falsifiable. Formally, the set of such theories is known as the "evolutionary mechanism theories," or EMTs. You cannot falsify the set of EMTs all at once, but you can falsify any one of them. And, in fact, this happens all the time. The consequence is that either the theory is dropped as unsound, adjusted to become more sound, or evaluated in its interaction with other theories, and then perhaps several theories are modified.

I agree with you that the EMT's can be falsified. But I diagree when you say "there's no theory of evolution, just a set of EMTs". There most definitely is an accepted theory that claims to explain how life evolves, in general. It's called the modern evolutionary synthesis, bringing together Darwinism and molecular biology. Any book by Mayr explains it very well. And it is a qualitative probabilistic theory. --AxelBoldt

So I if I had to summarize the above, it sounds like an individual, very specific "evolution mechanism theory" is falsifiable, but the set of all such theories is not. It sounds like even if they were all shown individually to be false, scientists would wait for someone to put forth a new EMT before looking outside of that framework for an explanation. Or to take AxelBoldt's explanation, the general modern evolutionary synthesis is not falsifiable until the exact probability of certain things can be determined in advance. If anyone did come up with such testable probability figures, it would surely be by means of a specific EMT, so if those figures were then shown to not match real world data, then only that one EMT is disproven, and we're right back where we started. So it still seems to be that evolution in the broader sense of the word is no more falsifiable then creationism. Have I missed something?

Thanks for your patience, --Wesley

25

The following was added to the main page, but is clearly commentary, so it belongs here. I think he's right that some mention should be made of the different schools of thought, including "intelligent design" (though it would be incorrect to call it a scientific hypothesis as he does, because it's clearly not falsifiable). ---LDC

I don't see how Intelligent Design is any less falsifiable than random genetic mutation. Tell me more, please.

Don't forget that there are two major kinds of Creationism: Sudden Creationism and Intelligent Design.

Sudden Creationism is the religious doctrine that God created everything in a very short period of time (one week) a relatively short time ago (six thousand years). What He created includes the artifacts known as fossils, which would in this view not comprise a 'record' of any sort.

Intelligent Design is the scientific hypotheses that evolution, i.e, the appearance of new species over time, really did happen. Its cause was not random genetic mutation but intervention by a divine force.

Sudden Creationism is not a scientific theory because it interprets the only evidence available (fossils) according to pre-conceived doctrine. Intelligent design is a viable hypothesis because it fits the facts rather than interpreting them away.

The difference between Intelligent Design and Darwinism is the change agent. While Darwinists regard God as not being involved in evolution (often because of His presumed non-existence), advocates of Intelligent Design regard God as being involved.

-- Ed Poor

Further, in the highly controversial aspect of the evolution of humanity itself, which is where the big hangup is in the minds of creationists, I added a blurb for creationism. I mean, what's the harm. See Homo sapiens, which itself needs some work.  :) --User:Chuck Kincy

This was indented, so it looks like it was intended to be discussion:

Many proponents of Darwin's theory claim that it's compatible with Christianity, but a substantial number of Creationists disagree, disbelieving that random forces could create new species at all, although ID adherents agree that once created, the species would be subject to natural selection.

If it wasn't discussion, it still didn't really fit into the article, and doesn't say anything that isn't already well covered here.

26

WRT the comment on US/not-US views on creationism, there's more to it than that. The comment probably applies in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and most of Western Europe (first-world nominally majority-Christian countries), but beyond I simply don't know (for example, the mostly Catholic areas of South America), suspect that the debate, if any, between evolution and religious creation views is framed in entirely different terms (Japan, for instance), or suspect that much of the general public simply isn't aware of evolutionary theory because of a lack of education (large parts of rural Africa, perhaps). --User:Robert Merkel

It would probably be difficult to find hard data supporting the idea that creationism is less strong outside of the US, but here's my evidence:

• US is the most religious country, creationism is correlated with religion.
• I lived for 25 years in Germany; the word "creationism" has no translation, because the notion doesn't exist there. People would be laughed at.
• Catholic countries don't espouse creationism, since the pope has made his peace with evolutionary science a while ago.

I don't know about islamic countries though. --AxelBoldt

27

There's much more Creationism/Talk than Creationism. I'd like to find a way to extract the arguments for and against Creationism and put them in a Wikipedia article to stand for all time. The threads here are too hard to follow.

How about a structure like I. Define the term II. Explain why (some) people believe it. III. Give a critique of those reasons.

I'm well aware that Darwin's theory is dominant. I have no problem with it getting the lion's share of Wiki space, even on non-Darwinist articles! Just let the other views get heard and understood is all I ask. After that, critique all you want. If the ideas are any good, they'll stand the test. If not, the opposing ideas will be clear winners.

Just have a fair contest. User:Ed Poor

I deleted the comment that "People outside USA accept darwinism" - I want numbers and reference sources. Actually although I am obviously an evolutionist, I would dispute that "darwin's view" is dominant. It certainly is among the "educated" classes of the world, but how many people are "educated" to the point where they can discern the distincrtions of Darwinism? I'm not supportive on any claim regarding "who and how many believe what" until we have HARD DATA with well-defined methodologies for the collection of that data. - User:MMGB

I found some better data to put on the Evolution poll page; it should be folded into the Creationism article eventually. Unfortunately, the best data is Gallup's phone poll of 1000 Americans (which isn't very good); the only European data was an internet poll, which is even worse. --LDC

28

If "commonly-accepted scientific model" means the model commonly accepted by scientists, than it sure isn't ID or any other stripe of Creationism. But if you meant to indicate that the non-Creationist model was commonly accepted by the general public, your own link proves you wrong.

Now, don't get me wrong. I respect you, and I love science. And I'm not going to insist that everyone slap labels of approval on all my pet ideas. But can't you let me describe Creationism is it is, without sticking in your critique before I even get up to speed? --User:Ed Poor

29

Revised this sentence, which glosses over ID's areas of agreement.

Although creationism is not part of the commonly-accepted scientific model of the history of life on Earth, many persons prefer the creationist to the evolutionary model.

---

Article said Papal acceptance of evolution had ended debate in Catholic countries for "those who hold to Papal infallibility". I deleted the reference to papal infalliability, because evolution is not ex cathedra, so papal infalliability does not apply to it. And besides, most Catholics who accept the Pope's views on evolution don't do so because they believe him to be infalliable on the issue -- rather they believe the scientists, especially since the Pope does not oppose what they say. So I replaced that bit with "for most people." -- User:SJK

30

How can I put in an HTML link to non-wiki information, such as http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/sides.html ?

I put it at the bottom of Creationism. LMS has asked us to label such as "external links". There is a prettier way to format these, which I can never remember. I'm sure someone will enlighten us on this shortly.  :-)

Also, Jonathan Wells writes:

We are frequently told that "evolution is a fact," as undeniable as gravity or the shape of the earth. Anyone who challenges it, at least in an academic setting, is likely to be regarded (in the words of Darwin popularizer Richard Dawkins) as ignorant, stupid, insane, or wicked. (1) In the United States, religious people who question evolution are often likened to the caricature of creationists promoted by the 1960 movie "Inherit the Wind," Hollywood's version of the 1925 Scopes trial.

(1) Richard Dawkins, review of Donald Johanson & Maitland Edey's Blueprint in The New York Times, April 9, 1989, sec. VII, p. 34.

-- User:Ed Poor Moved from main page:

In the United States, whehter most people prefer creationist or evolutionary models depends on how one interprets the evidence. . . . However, this cannot be taken to mean that the 40% who believe God guided evolution believe in Intelligent Design theory -- they may merely believe that God guided evolution as a religious view, while accepting Darwinian evolution. (Or, even more likely, they may not have sufficently understood or thought through the issue to understand the distinction at stake here.)

31

Ed Poor: You removed 'fundamentalist' from the following, saying most Americans believe in creationism and aren't fundamentalists:

The United States fundamentalist Christian community has no real parallels (in terms of numbers, prominence, and political influence) elsewhere in the Western world, and because most vocal creationists are from the United States, it is generally assumed that creationist views are not as common elsewhere.

Firstly, I disagree that most Americans are creationists -- 49% of Americans believe in evolution vs. 47% believe in creation, according to the Gallup Poll. (That 40% believe God has some role in it only makes them creationists if they believe this is a scientific theory.) Secondly, the point is that American support for creationism is because of the influence of Christian Fundamentalism in the US, even if many Christians who support believe in creationism are not fundamentalists. -- User:SJK

No, you're mixed up on the poll numbers. Give me 10 minutes, and I'll lay it all out for you. This war is senseless. Can you be patient? --User:Ed Poor

I mixed up the poll numbers before, but the point was completely correct, and had nothing to do with the poll numbers -- the 40% who support theistic evolution cannot necessarily be counted as creationists -- in fact, many of them would not even identify as creationists. -- User:SJK

Okay, but we were discussing your characterization of evolution-rejecters as 'fundamentalists'? Can it really be that 47% of Americans are fundamentalists? And is this relevant to an article on creationism? --User:Ed Poor

No, I'm not saying that 47% of Americans are fundamentalists. I'm saying that if it was not for the influence of fundamentalism in American society, it is unlikely that so many Americans would be creationists. Certaintly the power of American fundamentalism is an important factor in the frequency of creationism in the US compared to its relative absence in Australia and Europe. Even though not all American creationists are fundamentalists, fundamentalism is a reason why many are creationists.

Secondly, what is a fundamentalist? A fundamentalist, in the Christian context, is defined as someone who believes in biblical literalism and rejects the theory of evolution. (That was the original definition given by the founders of the fundamentalist movement in the US.) Now, a significant proportion (though not all) of the 47% would be fundamentalists under this definition. -- User:SJK

Poll numbers, quoted verbatim from <http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr010214c.asp>

Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings

• 40% Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process.

• 9% Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process.

• 47% God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so.

Ed: And, the poll, by my interpretation says 49% of Americans believe in evolution, 47% in creationism. I think very few of the 40% who believe in God-guided evolution believe this to be a scientific theory as opposed to religious belief. -- User:SJK SJK: And my interpretation is that 9% of Americans believe in unguided evolution, 40% in God-guided evolution, and 47% reject evolution altogether. --User:Ed Poor

But you are saying that the 40% who believe in God-guided evolution believe in what you call Intelligent Design Theory, as opposed to having a mere religious belief completely compatible with Darwinian evolution. -- User:SJK

Gosh, no. I have no idea whether any of the 40% who believe in God-guided evolution are even aware of Intelligent Design (ID). Also, I'm not sure how compatible ID is with Darwinian evolution. Doesn't the latter specifically exclude any supernatural causes? If so, this would seem to differentiate from ID, to say the least. --User:Ed Poor

It's entirely "compatible" in the sense that it's entirely irrelevant to it, as are all non-falsifiable theories. --LDC

This discussion is going too fast. I wrote this three or four Edit Conflicts ago:

Perhaps you deem the term 'creationism' to exclude God-guided evolution (see Intelligent Design). If so, we need to decide which usage of 'creationism' the wikipedia will retain. For example, should the articles on Creationism and Intelligent Design be separate, with Creationism held not to include ID? Or will we stick with my proposal that Creationism includes both Sudden Creationism (what you call simply 'creationism') and ID?

I will support whatever best accords with the Wiki Nature. I am really not trying to garner support for my biases, and I am open to constructive criticism.

--User:Ed Poor I think there are two theories of God-guided evolution, one of which is compatible with Darwinian evolution, the other is not. The one which is incompatible, the one you are putting forward, is that speciation occurs by direct divine action (which is what the Intelligent Design article says). This theory is certaintly a form of creationism (indeed, I would question whether it deserves the title 'evolution', but that is another issue.) The other one, which is compatible with Darwinian evolution, holds that God guided evolution, but puts this forward as a purely religious view, not as a scientific theory. This second theory of God-guided evolution is compatible with Darwinian evolution, and is not a form of creationism.

Now the Gallup Poll you provide does not distinguish these two theories, so the 40% who believe in God-guided evolution could be believing in either. However, I think it is more likely than not they believe in the second theory; most of these respondents probably identified as evolutionists, not creationists, and thought they were agreeing with science, just expressing a religious view on top. However, the Gallup poll itself really can't answer this question. -- User:SJK

I don't think either of your proposed definitions is adequate. As the term is generally used in the press and by most Americans, a "creationist" is someone who rejects evolution, and believes that God created man. This would exclude most ID proponents, but it would include far more people than the small minority which you describe as "sudden" creationists (your term--I've never heard that term anywhere else). I personally know quite a few people who accept, for example, that the Earth is 4 billion years old and that the fossil record is accurate, but maintain that mankind in its present form was created (or instilled with "souls", or whatever) by God. The spectrum of belief is complex and interwoven. It simply cannot be reduced to a few categories. --LDC

I also repaired two sentences that claimed scientists reject ID because it is a religious idea (which is false--they reject it because it is nonfalsifiable), and removed the word "proof" from the next sentence, since no scientist would ever use that word. --LDC

---

LDC: Just in case there is a misunderstanding here, 'Sudden Creationism' and 'Intelligent Design' are Ed's terms, not mine. (Sudden Creationism occurs only once on Google: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/GCCCREA.TXT). I think that although there are a broad variety of God-guided evolution viewpoints, they can be divided into two classes -- those compatible with the modern Neo-Darwinian theory of evolution, and those incompatible with it. I think that those who believe in theories involving God incompatible with Neo-Darwinian evolution belong in the creationist camp, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise :) -- User:SJK

I'm willing to own up to making up 'sudden creationism' out of my own head, but 'intelligent design' is something I cannot take credit for. See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/cosmo.html --User:Ed Poor

I'm not confused, SJK; I was replying to Ed, not you--it just looks that way because the damned edit conflicts make it impossible to have a thoughtful discussion here since we're posting every 5 minutes. And Ed's right--"Intelligent design" is a well-known mainstream term, and deserves coverage. --LDC

Perhaps the thing to do is write up the worthy viewpoints that disagree with the modern Neo-Darwinian theory of evolution. That done, we can decide whether to call them 'creationist' or what. I really don't care what terms we wind up using; I just want to see the ideas included somehow. --User:Ed Poor

I've been lobbying for that all along, Ed: go to it. There's a lot about the ID school that should be covered on that page. Who created the term? Who were its early proponents? What are the major books in the field? What are their specific claims? How has the field developed? What are its specific disagreements with other beliefs? I don't know these things--I've studied science. But you claim to be an adherent of the field, so do some basic research and write a good article on that. Then we can decide how to link it in with the rest of these. --LDC Not sure of the relevance to this. Did the writer intend to link fundamentalism with the rejection of evolution? (If so, it's not clear and should be expanded on.) I vote for taking it out. --Ed Poor

The United States fundamentalist Christian community has no real parallels (in terms of numbers, prominence, and political influence) elsewhere in the Western world, and because most vocal creationists are from the United States, it is generally assumed that creationist views are not as common elsewhere.

The Newsweek article makes a claim that 700 scientists take creation science seriously, which is a reasonable statistic. It is then claimed that the remainder therefore believe in "the scientific theory"; which theory is not stated, and at any rate this cannot be assumed, so I removed that assumption.

I also removed:

but since it makes no claims of direct divine intervention, it is also consistent with Darwinism.

from the discussion of process theology, because it is confusing: it says that PT is consistent because it makes no claims of divine intervention, which implies that Darwinism denies divine intervention (which is false, though certainly many Darwinists themselves do). And at any rate, every non-scientific theory is compatible with any scientific theory--that's why they're not scientific, so this statement doesn't say anything. --LDC

I tried to rephrase the statement before I saw the explanation here for why you took it out. I will take it back out with the new rephrasing, but my point in making that statement was to compare PT with Deism--note that the article in the parapraph above states that Deism is compatible with Darwinism. So if we remove the comment that says that PT is compatible with Darwinism, then we should also remove the statement that says that Deism is compatible with Darwinism. And I thought the point here was that Creationism is not compatible with it, while Deism is. So I was putting PT in the Deism camp as far as Darwinism goes--in other words, PT accepts Darwinism.

However, this cannot be taken to mean that the 40% who believe God guided evolution believe in Intelligent Design Theory -- they may merely believe that God guided evolution as a religious view (Intelligent design), while accepting Darwinian evolution. (Or, even more likely, they may not have sufficently understood or thought through the issue to understand the distinction at stake here.) Creationism refers to more than just the belief that God created the universe; it refers to the belief that He did so in such a way that evolution did not occur, as accepted by science.

This statement ignores the 4 out of 9 creationists who believe in God-guided evolution. --User:Ed Poor

The following looks like commentary, and I'd like to take it out (or rephrase it) --Ed Poor:

Rather than using the term "species", they use the term "created kinds" to describe the boundaries they believe evolution does not cross, but they offer no rigorous (or operational) definition of what a "created kind" is, just as the term "species" was not rigorously defined for many years.

From what I know, it's basically true, so it shouldn't be deleted. In order to be npov, though, it probably should be reworded. Can anyone actually come up with a rigorous definition? It is a "creation science" term, so it should be in scientific terms, i.e., testable in any given case. Some examples would be good, too. --User:Dmerrill You guys have been so darn nice and accommodating that now I'm being to doubt some stuff that I fought keep in:

It is also possible to believe that God created the universe and still accept Darwin's theory of evolution; although very few religious believers hold to this view.

I'm no longer sure about the "very few" part. It could be anywhere from 10% to 50%, I guess. Anyone got any hard numbers on this? --User:Ed Poor

Since the statement about process theology being compatible with darwinism was removed, I also removed the following statement:

Deism, while in no way required by the theory of evolution, is not incompatible with it.

Personally, I think that the point that both process theology and deism accept Darwinism, while creationism doesn't, is a point worth making, but we have to be consistent here if we are going to describe which theologies accept Darwinism, so for now I took out the statement regarding Deism. -- Egern.

If a particular named school of thought (ID, PT) explicitly accepts Darwinism, that should certainly be mentioned (though perhaps more appropriately on a page devoted to that school of thought). But if it is merely compatible (or entirely orthogonal) to it, that's not something worth mentioning, since lots of things are. And particularly "deism" is a broad school of thought about much more than human origins, and there are likely deists with varying views, so one cannot describe "the" deist view. --LDC

Yes, but ID explicitly rejects Darwinism. The questions are: (1) What religious beliefs accept Darwinism? (2) What religious beliefs reject Darwinism yet accept some kind of evolution? (3) What do you call the belief that evolution didn't happen, so as not to confuse it with #2? I am somewhat taken aback to realize that I don't have a handle on any of this :-( User:Ed Poor

I agree with Ed on this. The whole point of this article has a lot to do with how specific religious theologies relate to Darwinism. So it seems completely appropriate and consistent with the point of this article to highlight various classifications of theologies (where those classifications directly impinge on how they view the process at work in the universe), and to show how they view Darwinism. -- Egern

On the other hand (after further thought), perhaps a comparison of the way various religions view creation belongs in a different article than the creationism one. But I feel that they do belong in an article somewhere. -- Egern

"Sudden Creationism is generally considered an expression of religious literalism. Sudden Creationists oppose evolution on the grounds that it conflicts with the account of creation . . ."

The above needs revision, because someone deleted the Sudden Creationsim page on the (apparently correct) grounds that I simply made up the term. How about, "One current in creationism" has roots in religious literalism (or 'Biblical fundamentalism'), opposing evolution on the grounds . . ." . User:Ed Poor

You could replace it with "Young Earth" creationism, which probably should have a page of its own. -LDC User:Ed Poor suggests some questions the article should address:

• Does creationism conflict with the Darwinian theory of evolution? (All variants? Only some? Be specific.)
• What versions of creationism accept evolution, and with what reservations?
• What are all the various ideas called? Creationism, young or old earth creation science, intelligent design, etc.?

Some answers: by definition, creationism conflicts with Darwinian evolution as accepted by science. If it is compatible with it, then it is not creationism, as the term is normally used.

It is possible for a creationist to accept some form of evolution, so long as they do not accept the full Darwinian theory. (Otherwise, if they fully accepted Darwinian evolution, they wouldn't be a creationist.) --User:SJK SJK's formulation would seem to divide ideas on evolution into three broad categories:

• Accept Darwinian evolution fully
• Accept God-guided evolution
• Reject evolution altogether

1. Do all agree? 2. If so, may I revise Creationism to reflect this "clarification"? --User:Ed Poor The following needs revision to conform with SJK's definition of creationism (one I'm happy to accept):

"Many creationists believe in some form of evolution, but they deny certain key parts of the Darwinian theory. Others believe God had some role in the process, but do not put this forward as a scientific explanation, and fully accept Darwinian evolution . . ."

or

"Others believe God had some role in the process, but do not put this forward as a scientific explanation, and fully accept Darwinian evolution -- these people are not creationists, since their beliefs are in no way incompatible with Darwinian evolution. "

This second (overlapping) quote seems self-contradictory. -- User:Ed Poor

The "Others" should not be understood as "Other creationists", but rather as "Other people". Sorry if my text was less than clear. -- User:SJK

The creationism talk page has become so long we clearly need to archive older discussions (in lieu of someone boldly deleting discussion that is no longer relevant to anything). So, see Talk:Creationism (archive) for the creationism talk page archive.

I would be happier with the article if it became so clear that the following sentence would be untrue (and thus have to be omitted):

Due to imprecise and shifting use of the terms evolution and creationism it is difficult to say definitively whether "creationists" believe in "evolution" or not.

I think we have won half the battle already, assuming SJK's definition of creationism holds.

It should also be possible to resolve any remaining ambiguity over the use of evolution into (a) the accepted Darwinian theory in particular and (b) evolution in general (any theory even the Darwinian one). Then I can die happy :-) Ed Poor The article is sometimes unclear when mentioning evolution and creationism. Perhaps their meaning is shifting

Maybe we need a chart with categories such as:

• believes God was involved in creation of the various species
• believes in some sort of evolution
• accepts the Darwinian theory of evolution completely
• believes that God created/initiated life on earth

These would be overlapping categories, and the various terms could be defined in reference to them. --Ed Poor According to the Catholic Church[1]:

" . . . the Encyclical Humani generis considered the doctrine of "evolutionism" a serious hypothesis, worthy of investigation and in-depth study equal to that of the opposing hypothesis.

"Pius XII stressed this essential point: if the human body takes its origin from pre-existent living matter the spiritual soul is immediately created by God ("animal enim a Deo immediate creari catholica fides nos retinere inhet"; Encyclical Humani generic, AAS 42 [1950], p. 575). Consequently, theories of evolution which, in accordance with the philosophies inspiring them, consider the mind as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about man."

Okay, folks, I took another stab at creationism. I hope this version makes it quite clear that scientists (a) don't accept it and (b) have very good scientific reasons for not accepting it.

My aim was to present creationism as creationists see it, while giving science its due. There are a dozen scientific articles supporting evolution, and only a couple of creationism articles. Try not to feel that every article must repudiate creationism lest science fail in its educational goals. I really doubt the creationism article (as I revised it) will sway anyone away from the scientific camp.

The goal of NPOV on controversial issues is to make clear what the various positions are, and that's all I'm trying to do here. --Ed Poor

As contentious as the debate has been at times, as have to say that the article as it now stands is pretty good article. I'd like to see a few more specific references to important works of specific creationists (this is, after all, an encyclopedia article, and should have a bibliography); but other than that, I think it does a good job covering the field. --LDC

From a recent addition to the article:

The stories of the fall of humankind from that divinely-created state of grace, the sacrificial crucifixion, the resurrection and imminent return of the Messiah, all rely for their power on acceptance, by faith, of literal creationism, and an outright rejection of evolution.

This needs to be qualified, since for instance the pope and most other christians are not creationists yet believe in all those stories. AxelBoldt

I am not sure this makes sense:

Current creationist thinking embraces natural selection and small changes in species

"Natural Selection" is a major mechanism of speciation, which I thought creationists deny. User:Slrubenstein

Are there any numbers known for supporters over the WORLD? It's kind of unnecessary to focus on the USA only, and read a whole paragraph with all kinds of different polls conducted only there. Jeronimo

The stories of the fall of humankind from that divinely-created state of grace, the sacrificial crucifixion, the resurrection and imminent return of the Messiah, all rely for their power on acceptance, by faith, of literal creationism, and an outright rejection of evolution.

If a claim so sweeping is going to be made, it would be nice if it were accompanied by something like a coherent argument. The conclusion has no obvious relationship to the issue. Mkmcconn

I think that it might be helpful to point out the difference between specific kinds of creationism, which have more reliable and stable definitions - and organize the article according to those more stable definitions. The reason is, creationism is just too big of a word for what the article is targetting. The entry complains that the meaning is shifting. That's not really true, IMO. The meaning is growing, because opinions (which have always been diverse) are multiplying. Does anyone agree with me? Mkmcconn 02:13 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC)

Young Earth creationists who interpret the Bible literally believe that the Earth is somewhere around 6,000 years old (according to Bishop James Ussher's dating) and usually reject the Big Bang theory (which is related to creation of the universe). They claim that scientific findings contradict an old Earth and therefore evolution itself, a view that most mainstream scientists regard as absurd.

I would have to disagree with this statement. A 6,000 year old earth is not absurd to "most mainstream scientists", it is absurd to ALL scientists. If you believe the earth is 6,000 years old, you do so in the face of overwhelming science to the contrary, and with no science to support you. I would change it to "a view which is at odds with archaeology, biology, geology, climatology, and quantum physics", or at the very least "a view which scientists regard as absurd". Cardsharque

This article still needs to do a better job of defining the various kinds of creationism. For the most part, it seems to concentrate on scientific creationism and a scientifically literally interpretation of Genesis. This leaves the majority of creationists under-described. Mkmcconn 17:10 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I hope I helped in this regard. I also removed what I thought was a shameless assumption that scientific evidence on this topic is conclusive. Scientists are unanimous in granting evolution the status of theory due to the fact that none of the various evidence discovered has been strictly conclusive. Until now this article lacked that important detail. Science will not be rushed to a conclusion in this matter. I ask you all to stop proselytizing. Jtocci 20:51 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I'm going to have to put something back in the article, because the objection was not based, as you falsely claim, on evolution, rather on a "6000 year old earth". The scientific evidence for a billions year old earth IS conclusive, and all attempts to ignore the facts by so-called "scientific creationists" are laughable at best, and downright deception and distortion of provable facts at worst. A 6000 year old earth is at odds with many different scientific disciplines and has no basis whatsoever in fact.

Paleoclimatologists, for instance, have actually drilled into glaciers and found over 100,000 layers of ice. Each layer represents one year of growth. Carbon dating, while not accurate down to the minute, is at least accurate enough to prove that some fossils are tens of thousands of years old. Certain types of sediment take millions of years to form. Uranium dating proves that some types of rocks are billions of years old. Astrophysics prove that the universe is at the very least several billions of years old.

I'm glad you have an open mind about this. I find it interesting and I hope you do to. Specifically, let's cover the layers of ice first. First, one has to have faith that the layers were formed yearly, then that they were all formed in a row, and then that the scientists didn't drill down through the core and into layers heading 'back to the future' so to speak. I agree that they've got a great many details that point to something that meets their criteria, but scientifically they'd have to repeat the process of forming the rings to be certain--to prove--that they have something factual. Now until scientists--or creationists for that matter--have time travel to get some actual facts, there is only 'beyond a reasonable doubt' and that's not science, that's a judgment requiring a leap of faith. Now, just to be thorough, carbon dating, fossils, sediment formation, uranium dating, and astrophysics all require faith as well, no less than Dr. Carl Sagan has pointed out the concept. Now gravity, that's science--repeatable, same thing every time, but this stuff you talk about all requires a faith I don't possess, so it's easy for me to point out.Jtocci 06:28 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

That is sheer nonsense. You obviously are totally ignorant of science, and are trying to push a fundamentalist religious point of view. Your claims are not only wrong, but they demonstrate that you are using words whose definitions you do not even understand. Please refrain from editing articles on such subjects until you posesses the necessary skills. To claim that those sciences are merely beliefs is so incorrect and offensive, that I can hardly find words for this. RK

One hundred percent ad hominem. Scientists are the worst kind of believer.Jtocci 02:57 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

None of this has anything to do with evolution, but my statement: "a view which is at odds with archaeology, biology, geology, climatology, astronomy, and quantum physics", was quite correct. If you would care to offer any sort of scientific evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears.

Well, in addition to my remarks above, I could point out that philosophically, whether we like it or not, there is no way to prove something in the past with absolute certainty. There is only the present for that. An example would be that a police officer can kill a person shooting a gun at him, but if the gun runs out of bullets before the officer can shoot the alleged attempted murderer, there is only an arrest, because there is only alleged at that point.Jtocci 06:28 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Jtocci, you are making a serious (and common) logical fallacy. You are using the common religious fundamentalist position of denying the relevance and weight of all evidence about what happened in the past, merely because we don't have God-like omniscience, yet you accept religious fundamentalist beliefs about the past which have no support whatsoever. RK 20:44 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Don't type when you're disturbed. I give equal weight--zero--to religious and scientific views on the past, yet you claim I accept religious beliefs. Brother, you've clearly lost your NPOV. Take it easy.Jtocci 02:57 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Creationism is not considered a part of salvation theology for most Christians, and all major Christian denominations accept evolution theory.

I'm pretty sure there are a few denominations which do not (Southern Baptists? Mormons?). -- stewacide

Key tenets of creationism were disproven in the early 19th century with the Rev. Adam Sedgwick's and Charles Lyell's publication of falsification of flood geology, and Louis Agassiz's promulgation of glacier geology and ice ages. Remaining tenets of creationism in biology were disproven by Alfred Russel Wallace, Darwin, and the spectacular dinosaur finds of Richard Owen, Barnum Brown, and other dinosaur hunters.

I'm removing the above sentences because they assume the reliablity of evidence and procedures that as yet can only be accepted on faith. Also, dinosaurs becoming extinct no more disproves creation than any recent animal extinction, so 'key tenent' is not really NPOV.Jtocci 22:00 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Creationism is not considered a part of salvation theology for most Christians, and all major Christian denominations accept evolution theory.

I tried to reword these statements into something true and couldn't do so satisfactorily so I cut them. Roman Catholicism has always had creation as a doctrine, recent statements by the pope saying evolution is worthy of study doesn't change that. And how many ministers preach creation? When they do are people groaning? I think you merely have to look at the poll results in the article to know that most aren't. I welcome anyone to try to reword this.Jtocci 22:11 8 Jul 2003 (UTC) I feel that RK is removing NPOV statements that should be left in. For example, "the only form of evolution admitted in pure creationism is microevolution" and "there are legitimate gaps, hence the debate on this point". Angela 21:00 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Huh? I never removed any of these topics. I did some rewriting, because the current form of this article is poorly written and needs clarification. But rewriting an article for clarity is not the same as deletion. Please carefully and slowly re-read what I have added. If you have objections, fine, please state them very specifically, explain what precisely you think is problematic. But at the moment you are arguing against a position that I do not hold, and thus it seems clear you have misread my text. RK

For example, you removed "creationism is seen as contradicting the Darwinian theory of evolution which is at this time the most popular theory presented by mainstream science." There is now no mention of Darwinism or of the fact that this is currently the most popular theory. You also removed "it is accepted among philosophers that neither theory is provable nor falsifiable but there is some debate on the matter among physical scientists and creationists" and replaced it with "creationism describes events in the past which by definition are untestable". By doing this, you suggest that creationism is untestable but that other theories of evolution are testable. Why not leave in the original comment which reflects the debate over this point? Replacing the term literalism with fundamentalism is also POV. Angela

Thank you very much for clarifying! I did take out the one word "Darwinism", because this article was very mistaken on that point. Scientists do not accept Darwinism. Terminology is very important. if we want to be accurate, we can write that "scientists accept that biological evolution occurs", or we can also state that scientists accept neo-Darwinism, which is the extension of Darwinism to include what we have learned about genes and genetics since Darwin's time. The name "Darwinism" by itself should not be used, because (a) in a scientific sense it is used to describe a set of beliefs which are no longer fully accepted as valid, or (b) it is used by religious fundamentalists as a way of denigrating what they imagine to be the beliefs of scientists. RK

Also, it is not I who suggests that religious beliefs about creationism are scientifically untestable. (1) Most religions make this claim themselves! Classical forms of Judaism, Christianity and Islam quite often deny that one can use scientific measurements to prove their beliefs. In your effort to "equalize" the religious view with the scientific view, you are misrepresenting the beliefs of many religious believers. (2) Even for those religious believers who claim that their theology is somehow testable, we can only remark that this itself is a religious claim! And for the small subset of religious belief they hold that are subject to measurement (i.e. the age of the world being only 6000 years old) science has studied these claims, and disproven them. So we are left merely with the claim that "Some religious believers hold that science can prove some of their religious beliefs, despite the fact that all current scientific research totally refutes all of their claims." RK 22:46 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

To address your last point, I did delete one sentence that may contain the germ of a new idea; however, it really wasn't a topic I deleted - it was one vague sentence. We certainly can restore it, and we can have a section on this third party (philosophers, as you mention), as some of them apparently believe that scientific findings are no more or less falsifiable than religious claims. But this would need some specific examples and positions. The statement you want restored is vague, and needs elaboration. RK 22:46 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Ok, but just to clarify, I wasn't saying religious beliefs are testable, I was saying that some people feel that other theories of evolution are not testable. It just seemed more NPOV to leave in the comment that some think that neither are testable rather than say this about either one of them. I don't have any "specific examples and positions" that you request and I didn't originally write the passage in question. Hopefully the person who did can fill in these details. Thanks for the explanations above RK. I don't want to get involved in an edit war so I won't make any changes to the article now, but I have put in a boilerplate text about the article being in dispute so that people know to look up this talk page and the history if they want to. Angela 00:07 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I think that material concerning who or what the Creator is, is more relevant to the issue of Creationism generally speaking, than is the material concerning proof and the relationship of science to Creationism. Although the latter is certainly a hot topic and plenty interesting, it isn't fundamental to the issue, as the former is. Just voicing out loud my disapproval that a strait-jacket has been put on this article, which in my opinion is the main reason that the patient appears to be deranged ... Mkmcconn 04:40 13 Jul 2003 (UTC) There are three main views on "creation" and human origins, although they surely don't have equal numbers of adherents. In chronological order of appearance, they are:

1. creationism - the view that God created everything and everybody
2. materialism - the view that everything and everyone came into existence without divine intervention
3. intelligent design - the view that various aspects of the universe and living beings show signs of having been designed

Regardless of the degree to which individual Wikipedians adhere to these 3 views, I think they make a pretty good framework for defining and discussing the various schools of thought.

We might, for example, discuss the creationism inherent in various theologies. Also, several of the currents of thought regarding evolution may be defined in terms of "God created" vs. "no divine intervention".

I think so too, Uncle. How would you feel, if I reverted the deleted material about "creationism inherent in various theologies"? This page is a little hot, right now; and while I want to be bold, I don't want to be provocative. But, in my opinion, the entire discussion of proof, science and young-earth creation science should be put on ice until the article's treatment of what creationism is is improved; then a more solid foundation will be provided for discussing the objections to various implications of creationism, more meaningfully and informatively. Mkmcconn 05:40 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Most interesting for me is the conversation between various scientists on the one hand, religious believers on the other hand, and a host of thinkers in between -- on the issue of what the fossil record and other evidence brings to bear on the issues. --Uncle Ed 05:07 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

And it's obviously what most editors want more to hear about, as well. I dare say, it seems that there is more interest in the implications of Creationism, than in describing what Creationism is. However, I think that we need to put the cart behind the horse, of course. Mkmcconn 05:40 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes, let's stop fighting over what the Wikipedian position on creationism ought to be. It ought to go without saying that the Wikipedia cannot take a position -- on anything.

I think editors are afraid that if they let the article describe creationist views without a sufficiently strong rebuttal, it might mislead readers into becoming Creationists! --Uncle Ed

A few edits back Angela made a good point that seem worth emphasizing. There are two theories to explain speciation. The Theory of Evolution and the The Theory of Creationism. Creationism is as much a theory as evolution. As a scientist I have no problem with accepting and considering both theories. There is apparantly considerable evidence to support both theories. Ping 09:15 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< There are two theories to explain speciation. The Theory of Evolution and the The Theory of Creationism. Creationism is as much a theory as evolution. . . . There is apparantly considerable evidence to support both theories. >>

No doubt there are some scientists who feel that Creationism is a valid scientific theory, but the vast majority of scientists reject Creationism as being something other than science. Moreover, there is a general antipathy among scientists for the forensic tactics of Creationists. -- NetEsq 14:43 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The creationists that I know, who are biological scientists, treat evolution as though it were the mechanism of speciation, on the tentative assumption that the results of creation will appear evolutionary. For the present, it is the reliable framework within which to treat data. One of them, in fact, believes on the basis of the Bible that the earth is very young, and that there was a global flood. His views of Scripture have the effect of constraining his activity as a scientist within his local neighborhood of time, making him more present-focused and practical (he regards these as virtues, in a scientist). However, being practical, and a scientist, he finds nothing of value in creation scientism, which he distinguishes sharply from creationism. Mkmcconn \

A similar attitude was adopted by Aquinas, mentioned in the article. Thomas argued at length against the views of his contemporaries that the universe can be proven to be of finite age. As far as "science" (or rather, metaphysics), the "light of nature" was concerned, Thomas proved that the universe gives all appearance of being eternal. However, Scripture reveals what cannot be discovered otherwise: that there is a beginning of time. If it were not for this, Thomas argued, there should not be an argument concerning the eternality of time, space, matter/energy. Therefore, Christian philosophers following him, considered created things as though they had no beginning, but knew (because of what the Scriptures say) that appearances were misleading for some purposes, while they must be relied upon for others. Clearly, Aquinas was a creationist, and yet, was not a creation scientist (since by that is meant, the expectation that what the Bible says concerning the origin of things, is provable). Mkmcconn \

If the article does not make such basic distinctions as these clear, it is quite simply worthless. And, I would like to have a vote on whether it was an improvement to the article to remove the material on LDS and Hindu creationism. I want it back. Mkmcconn 15:44 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The comments above by Mkmcconn inspired me to look up "Creation science," a Wikipedia article that redirects to Scientific creationism. IMHO, the disputes over the current article's POV on Creationism have already been resolved in the context of the article on Scientific creationism, and the present article should be reformatted to address the more broad philosophical issues which Mkmcconn seeks to address. -- NetEsq 18:04 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

NetEsq makes an interesting point, the vast majority of scientists reject creationism True, but when did popular vote become a method for establishing scientific facts? The point I was making is that Creationism is, and always will be, only a theory. As such it does not threaten the Theory of Evolution. There is never going to be a vote upon the subject, not least because no one would pay any attention to the outcome anyway. Ping 07:58 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< [W]hen did popular vote become a method for establishing scientific facts?>>

This is a straw man argument. No one has asserted that popular vote is the method for establishing scientific facts. Rather, scientific theories are subject to peer review, and when a theory that purports to be scientific has been rejected as unscientific by the vast majority of scientists who have reviewed that theory, it is our job as Wikipedians to note that fact.

In the talk sections of various other Wikipedia articles, I have commented that it is not our job as Wikipedians to resolve factual disputes. Rather, if a noteworthy person group of people makes a factual assertion, it is our job to report that factual assertion and the factual assertions made by other noteworthy persons or groups, taking great care to note who said what and leaving the reader to determine the credibility of competing authorities. For instance, we can report that the former Iraqi Information Minister asserted that Saddam Hussein was still in control of Baghdad while noting the contrary reports of embedded reporters. Moreover, we can report that a significant group of people believe that the Earth is flat, even though the vast majority of scientists and laypersons reject this viewpoint. -- NetEsq 15:02 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree with Netesq here: ALL noteworthy views/counterviews should be presented. Some wikipedians are propogandizing that this is too burdensome, will lend equal validity to less normative views, and/or non-normative views detract from wiki articles. These arguments are specious. Only ungenerous and uncreative minds would cynically conclude that there is not a NPOV way to handle non-normative views on wikipedia. B 21:46 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree as well. As a reader/editor who holds several views that are non-normative, I only want to see an accurate representation of the norms upon which that judgment is made - accurate, as sometimes opposed to fair, since it never feels fair when one's views are described as being "ridiculous to the scholars". If it plays without distortion, to rewind it and mentally insert, "these proofs offered by scholars advocating my view are considered ridiculous by the majority of scholars", then I am content that NPOV has been satisfied. We need to be concerned with reporting, not argumentation and proof. Mkmcconn 22:47 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Well said about the accurate/fair distinction. B 01:37 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

A valid point and well put. Ping 07:21 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There has been a great deal of talk on the Talk page for the Evolution article about merging the Scientific Creationism article into the article on Creationism. I think this would be a huge mistake. The creationism article should cover the philosophy of creationism, and the scientific creationism article should cover the pseudo-science which is the classic adversary of the Theory of Evolution. Beyond a certain amount of ambiguity in the terms creationism and creation science, the two topics have very little in common with each other. -- NetEsq 04:30 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I can't understand it either, but the goal might be to remove from Wikipedia the what's been called the oxymoron of "scientific creationism", altogether, by burying it in a religion article. Regrettably, I'm unable to see the sense of this, for the reasons you mention. Some heavy-hitting Wikipedians support this, but it is clearly a mistake. Mkmcconn 04:46 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Actually, it would make the oxymoron of "scientific creationism" more visible :-). Look, can we agree that "scientific creationism" is an emotionally loaded term? If so, then even if you want to treat philosophical and (pseudo-)scientific arguments in different articles, the one about (pseudo-)science should have a reasonably neutral title. Neither "Scientific creationism" nor "Creationism (science)" nor "Creationism (pseudoscience)" are such neutral terms. This is the main reason why I don't want them to be separate, because "creationism" is reasonably neutral and descriptive for both concepts, and the title under which most people would expect to find the controversies, both scientific and philosophical, discussed. --Eloquence 04:52 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The bottom line is that what is commonly known as "creation science" has *nothing* whatsoever to do with creationism. Creationism is a philosophical topic, subject to the scrutiny of logicians, and creation science is an invention of Christian Fundamentalism. The two topics should not be conflated into one. -- NetEsq 05:09 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I hate to say it, but on this issue at least, I agree with NetEsq. Creationism and creation science are two separate things: not all creationists are creation scientists (quite the contrary!). Placing everything we have on creation science into this article would be like placing everything on the Unitarian church in our article on Christianity. --mav 05:22 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Well, all the creationists I have met so far have tried to make some kind of rational, pseudo-scientific argument for creationism. But that may have something to do with living in Europe. Anyway, as I said, if you want to keep things separate, I want to see a neutral title, and the present redundancy should be eliminated. --Eloquence 05:24 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Creationism as a philosophical topic antedates the Theory of Evolution by several hundred, if not several thousand, years. Creation science, OTOH, is a modern construct of Fundamentalist Christians in the United States who see the Theory of Evolution as a challenge to their world view.

The bottom line is that whatever hole Wikipedians want to stuff creation science into, they should do it without bastardizing a truly legitimate topic. -- NetEsq 05:50 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

My understanding is that the word "creationism" carries heavy connotations of religious fundamentalism and specific fundamentalist views today, whereas the broader philosophical concepts you describe are commonly referred to as creation myths (which are already discussed in that article). This understanding is validated, for example, by the American Heritage Dictionary entry about creationism, which simply states that creationism is the "belief in the literal interpretation of the account of the creation of the universe and of all living things related in the Bible." A similar definition is given by Princeton University's WordNet. Generally, we try to describe concepts under the article titles our readers expect, and not in whatever hole Wikipedians want to stuff them into. That means discussing the concept of creationism in its modern form separately from the broader philosophical topic of creation myths, instead of bastardizing that truly legitimate topic. --Eloquence 05:59 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I just opened up the Third College Edition of Webster's New World Dictionary (ISBN 013-949298-4) and found the following definitions for creationism and creation science, right next to each other:

crea*tion*ism - n. Theol. 1. the doctrine that God creates a new soul for every human being born; opposed to TRADUCIANISM 2. the doctrine that ascribes the origin of matter, species, etc. to acts of creation by God.

creation science - a theory, concerning the origin of the universe, which states that the literal biblical account of creation can be scientifically verified: essentially rejects Darwinism and much of modern scientific thought, esp. in biology and geology.

Note that the theological doctrine in re the genesis of souls -- i.e, creationism -- is a philosophical topic that has *NOTHING* whatsoever to do with the Theory of Evolution, much less creation myths such as the biblical account of Genesis, whereas the second term is a highly specific one that has entered the official lexicon of the English Language (as set forth by Webster).

In other words, put creation science anywhere you want, as long as you don't put in the creationism article. -- NetEsq 06:35 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

You seem to be focusing on definition 1. and completely ignoring definition 2. Definition 2. -- ascribing the origin of species to acts of creatio by God -- is quite related to the Theory of Evolution. --Delirium 06:40 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Although many here clearly disagree, theology isn't about some alternative universe, but this one. So, sure, there is a relationship between theology and the theory of evolution, and of course it has to do with the Bible - it is a religious view of things. The purpose of theology is to relate the knowledge of God to life. But that doesn't mean that it's concerned with proofs in a naturalistic sense. What we're now calling more uniformly, "creationists", have an interesting but (speaking for myself) an invalid idea of how the knowledge of God relates to things, and particularly to the task of science. In holding the view that this is an invalid approach, I'm in line with a very old and yet quite living tradition of thinking. In the name of accuracy and completeness, the two ideas can't be blended into one - they are oil and water - putting them together just makes a mess. Please let the article on Creationism (theology) expand, with this in mind, and I think that what I mean will become obvious. May I do this, without provoking an edit war? Mkmcconn 09:08 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Correct. The predominant, modern use of the term is the one in definition 2, as any cursory search in media sources will reveal. Therefore the older theological use should be discussed at creationism (theology). As for Webster's definition of "creation science", their advantage is that they don't have to follow a strict NPOV policy -- we do. Furthermore, we have a Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) policy. There are twice as many hits for Google searches on "'creationism' 'fossil record'" as for "'creation science' 'fossil record'"; the same ratio applies for "missing links", "moon dust", and it is even higher for "complexity" -- creationism is clearly the preferred term. (Oh, and "scientific creationism" is even less common than "creation science".) --Eloquence 06:48 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

And you seem to be ignoring the clear and concise definition in re creation science.

The bottom line is that creationists and creation scientists have nothing in common. The former are theologians/philosophers, and the latter are pseudo-scientists. Pursuant to your specious line of reasoning, we might as well put the content for creation science under Existentialism, a philosophical discipline which is the foundation of the modern religious dogma of Biblical inerrancy.

I don't think that really makes sense. The vast majority of English speakers understand "God created the world" or "God created species" or something similar when you use the term Creationism, so a discussion of that viewpoint should appear here. If you wish to write an article about an unrelated topic that also goes under the name "Creationism," given that it's a less-common usage of the term, it should go under "Creationism (theology)" or something of that sort, with a disambiguating note at the top of the article on Creationism in the sense most people mean it. --Delirium 06:51 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< [T]he older theological use should be discussed at creationism (theology). >>

Now *that* makes sense! Bravo! -- NetEsq 06:53 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

From the article:

The debate on creationism entails a debate on what constitutes scientific evidence, and what kinds of facts are acceptable as proof. Ultimately, the discussion rages with unverifiable assertions on both sides.

The reason for passionate debate on the matter is known however. Believers on both sides begin by accepting something on faith and build from there. Creationists believe in a creator and scientists believe in various dating techniques. For those who hold that faith is not admissible as evidence, there is no evidence to begin a debate.

This is totally non-NPOV. Scientists do most surely not accept that their arguments are based on faith. The two paragraphs make the article worse rather than better in their present form. --Robert Merkel 06:13 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

100% correct. The whole article might be better off if it was rewritten from scratch. --Eloquence 06:24 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

OK, I'll try to rewrite/merge the two articles in a way that hopefully makes sense. Please give me a few minutes and then look over the result, but let's try to avoid edit conflicts. --Eloquence 07:11 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

My interest in the creationism article was ancillary to my interest in anthropology and the theory of evolution, and the creation of the creationism (theology) article has addressed my concerns. I think we are now both on the same page. -- NetEsq 07:22 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I'll be happy with this, if the wide theological issues can be moved to Creationism (theology), and manage to remain substantially separate from discussion of that form of Creationism which claims to be science rather than theology. If that can be done, then please consider moving the entire section under "Absolute creation" (retitled however seems best, if you wish). Mkmcconn 08:26 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

OK, I'm mostly finished. I considered moving all the theological stuff over, but since it's currently relatively brief, that may not be necessary. Please tell me what you think. --Eloquence 09:14 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

My frustration, E., is that while it's perfectly legitimate to speak theologically of creationism as a view of where the soul comes from, where do we put the views of creationists who are theologically interested in the creation of the world? I know that this sounds like the same thing as a scientific discussion of the proof of the existence of a creator: but, that is so much at the periphery of the theological issue that very many sincerely wonder whether it belongs there at all. In the meantime, the subtopics have taken over, and the supertopic has nowhere to go. Please make a suggestion. Mkmcconn 09:22 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I believe, M., that I have not removed any substantial part of the previous theological discussion, although I moved it around a lot. My suggestion would be to start adding such discussions to the relevant sections (or to add new ones), and to move most of this material to creationism (theology) if it becomes too dominant. Could you explain what you mean with "the subtopics have taken over, and the supertopic has nowhere to go"? --Eloquence 09:32 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Rats. My modem disconnected, and I lost everything... But, I understand you to be saying that the article on creationism v traduscianism is an appropriate place for the material I have in mind. Mkmcconn \

As for what I meant, maybe I can illustrate it by an analogy to the Evolution article. If the discussion of Evolution can only proceed by fits and starts, interrupted along the way by the comments of anti-evolutionists, then the article will have ceased to be informative. It will have become a subtopic ([Creationism v Evolution]) masquerading as a supertopic. First, any reader should want to know what evolution is all about. It's only after knowing this, that discussion of proof should enter. And it's only after that, that controversies regarding whether it is proven are even relevant. It may be hard for some people to read through all of that, without grinding their teeth waiting for the rebuttal to come in, but that's where their opinions are starting to show up - and what article on Evolution would be worth its salt, if it didn't raise the issues that raise opinions? Mkmcconn \

It's likewise with a theological issue. If nothing can be said theologically, without interruptions by philosophical naturalism, or "creation science", then the main article will not be about what it purports to be about. It is a subtopic, pretending to be the main article. What the theology is can't be learned that way, and the article becomes sidetracked by a discussion of implications. Mkmcconn \

Although it's certainly a legitimate theological issue, to discuss creationism v traduscianism, this is a subissue concerning how God grants being to persons. The main issue is that God does grant being to persons, as well as to everything else. After this idea is described, it's appropriate to discuss theological proofs and the theological controversies regarding those proofs (because there is no such thing as a theological proof without controversy). Then it's appropriate to talk about the implications for science, and all the very interesting noise that is raised over that. But in the main, the issue is a theological one; and I can't presently see a place for that discussion (unless it is, after all, Creation (theology) or Creationism (theology), certainly not in this article, which is mostly about Creationism v Evolution. Mkmcconn 10:25 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Mkmcconn: I would urge you to forge ahead and create a high quality article at Creationism (theology), taking whatever material from the article on Creationism that you feel is appropriate for a theological discussion, and if any creation scientists attempt to interject material in the theological discussion that you feel is inappropriate, direct them to the creationism article and let them deal with Eloquence, et al. -- NetEsq 15:31 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I've raised my expectations so much, that it's not going to be easy for me, anymore. I'll take a couple days. Mkmcconn 17:05 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Well, if you want the theology completely separate from rationality, as it usually tends to be, then Wikipedia is not the place for such presentations. You will have to live with "interruptions" by people having different views, unless you are dealing with very specific theological questions. I think the current article does a reasonably good job at this, and defines creationism in more ways than most readers will probably care to know before going into the controversy. But if you think that the theological formulations need to be further refined, just go ahead and do it, we'll see where it goes. Just don't expect me to write about angels on pinheads, or something like that, I'll leave these questions to the experts. --Eloquence 10:45 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Interruptions are part of every controversial article, and theology separated from rationality is entirely meaningless theologically. Anyway, the article will look different to me tomorrow, when the plan in my head fades away and I can see read it more objectively. Thanks for the work you did. Mkmcconn 10:57 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I moved a substantial amount of content to Creationism (theology) because it seemed to be better suited to that article, but please feel free to mercilessly revert that edit if anyone thinks the move was inappropriate. -- NetEsq 17:36 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I suspect that this move is wrong because I look at it and I say inside, "Good one. That scores ten points for my side."

But hey! The game here is not scoring points. Rather, we should be doing something like describing the "system" of our modern world.

How can you split part of creationism out as theology! Practically speaking creationism is all theology. That is, the split of creationism into 1) God individual creation, 2) traducianism, and 3) pre-existence are merely variations on creationism in regard to the soul. You could also generate another humorous page on creationism (evolution) in which you could classify the various conjectures on the "means" by which God influenced the evolution of species.

By my thinking, as soon as you introduce God as some element in your hypothesis, you have a theology from which likely you oould remove God by Occam's razor to get a simpler testable hypothesis in the real world. Hence, practically all of creationism is theology. I leave as an exercise what part of creationism that would NOT be theology. To work that exercise maybe I could draw up a hypothesis that some entirely natural space alien "created" something on earth, but again it seems to me that Occam's razor would remove that space alien from every useful hypothesis--except possibly for something like those hypothetical crop circles that are signed by "Space Alien" in a metal alloy that could not possibly have earthly origin.

Hence, I propose as a feasibility study that I rewrite the combination page of creationism and creationism (theology) in a new set of pages with practical disambiguation where advantageous, starting from the link User:Rednblu/Development/Creationism which will of course have its own Talk page. After I and whoever wants to help has a working draft that we think is an improvement over what is already there--if we can do that--we will move it to replace creationism with a redirect from creationism (theology).

Maybe the split is the best solution. I don't have a real idea until I try it. Rednblu 21:07 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

You can split them, and ought to, because practically speaking they are not the same thing. The theologians are usually not scientists, and the scientists are not theologians (although the way that they do science, certainly has to do with their theology). Rhetorically speaking, they are not the same thing at all (because creation scientists say that they are not doing theology, they are doing science). Mkmcconn \

I would urge you to develop these topic separately, and after they have reached a more or less finished state, only then move to merge the two. Mkmcconn 22:03 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Simply put, the article "creationism" should give a history of creationist thought and an account of the controversy, while detailed discussions of various variants of creationism, some of which can be united with science and some of which cannot, should be discussed in creationism (theology). Ultimately, we may also want to merge creation myth into creationism (theology) as these two are somewhat redundant, and creationism (theology) is currently extremely Christian-centric. --Eloquence 01:29 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Alright. But in taking this approach, definitions suffer. There is a well-known doctrine of creation, and another of creationism, in Christian theology. But wikipedia is about nothing, if it isn't about the exercise of patience. Mkmcconn 01:53 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Wikipedia is also not just about Christian theology. If we want to discuss different "doctrines of creation", creationism (theology) or creation myth seems to be the right place to do so. Right now there's some redundancy here. Seeing that some Christians may object to the label "myth", whereas most non-Christians probably won't object to "theology", having the two in creationism (theology) may make the most sense. --Eloquence 02:00 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I can accept that being Christian-centric is as much of a handicap, as being anything-else-centric. But we write best about what we know best. For what it's worth, I originally posted a general description of various views of creation, which someone cut out, apparently under the impression that different views of the Creator are irrelevant to the issues of creation. And you are right that, just as the label "scientific creationism" sounds as though it's designed to provoke scientists, so the name "creation myth" sounds malicious against belief; and yet, it has now found its way into this article. Mkmcconn

OK, I've moved this stuff around. The Bible part in creation beliefs now contains some redundancy, could you fix that? --Eloquence 02:43 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

You have an quick talent for organization. I'm being pulled away right now, but if no one fixes the redundancy, I'll give it a try later. Mkmcconn 02:47 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The source I used for the statistics I quoted was the following:

• http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/religion/revolution/1980.html

A more primary source would be good, I'll see if the companion book to the series provides a direct source for the claim. --Robert Merkel 02:06 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Eloquence, in classical theology, a theory is a construct of systematic abstract reasoning, as opposed to a fact. Creationism in its old sense is not properly, a theory. But neither does it "refer to a belief". It is a doctrine, whether anyone believes it or not. In any case, the purpose of editing that sentence was to remove the clumsy phrase, "refers to the belief", not to insert the word "theory" (which I used only because not all accept it as doctrine). I would prefer the sentence to read "traditionally, creationism is", rather than "creationism refers to". Are you opposed to my intention, here? Mkmcconn 05:05 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I think perhaps the word you are searching for is Conjecture. Which is perhaps the weakest form of a theory. Conjecture is considered to be true because it cannot be proven to be false but does not sustain a full chain of evidence to support a scientific proof. It is certainly the correct word to descibe the "God directs evolution" form of Creationism. I think that Hypothesis acceptable because of the proof vs belief issue. User:MartinSpamer.

I would say that Conjecture or Hypothesis would accurately label "God directs evolution." And I think the conjecture "God directs evolution" is 1) unwarranted by the data and 2) destructive in the society. However, what I think does not need to cripple my ability to recognize the unnecessary materialist POV bias in the Evolution and Creationism pages--just to name two of the POV-sick pages in Wikipedia. Rednblu 14:03 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I don't know much about theology, so I trust you that the word "theory" is in fact used in that way. Please do expand the article theory accordingly when you find the time. However, given that large parts of this article refer to scientific arguments, Eloquence 05:36 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Pardon me, please for interrupting, but it is ridiculously prejudiced and biased that there are so many scientific arguments on the Creationism page. How would you like it if half of the Evolution page were refutations, line-by-line of the Evolution argument--so that no coherent picture of "Evolution" would be possible. Surely every one would be better off if the evolutionists could present Evolution so that we could consider it.

And likewise, supposedly, everyone would be better off if the creationists could present Creationism so that we could see what this mythical creature actually is.

There is a place for line-by-line blood-letting and that is on the Creationism versus evolution page. Rednblu 08:17 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Since the primary goal of the modern creationist movement is to substitute or complement the teaching of evolution in schools, Eloquence 08:23 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree. I am on your side. But you are not playing fair in this medium. Rednblu 10:15 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

their arguments have to be presented in the article about said movement, just like the arguments of the Flat Earthers are presented in Flat Earth, and not in Flat vs. Spherical Earth controvery, or even in Geology.

I have no problem with Creationism being presented like that--except the creationists complain that it is not fair. And it is not fair.

Evolutionary biology is the mainstream,

So? Is this just another case of the majority vandalizing the rights of the minority?

and the arguments by creationists are, for the most part, irrelevant from a scientific point of view,

No disagreement with you in substance. But the creationist argument is not a scientific argument. You said that already yourself. Hence, scientific argument has little relevance to a page on Creationism.

If you want to play Creationism versus evolution, then you should do that on the Creationism versus evolution page.

It seems to me that the small section of creationism on the Evolution page is about the right proportion. And a similar proportion of scientific argument would be appropriate for the creationism page, in my opinion.

so there is nothing biased about largely ignoring them in the article about evolution and linking to creationism instead, just as there is nothing biased

It would be biased to do it the way you suggest, but nobody would mind because nobody has the guts to defend the Flat Earth wrong answer. Rednblu 10:15 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

about ignoring the Flat Earth arguments in articles about geology. --Eloquence 08:23 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea to avoid this usage of the term, since a theory by the scientific definition has to be testable, which theological "theories" certainly are not. Doctrine, dogma, belief would all be fine with me. As for the "refers to" phrase, I did not find it clumsy, as "creationism" was explicitly put in quotation marks, so it could be read as "the term 'creationism' refers to ..". But some people seem to have an aversion to this particular phrase, so I have no strong objections to replacing it. --Eloquence 05:36 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Rednblu, as long as this article is about the scientific views of believers in creation, who try in various ways to prove the truth of their position, then this page is the right place for writers about science to test the merit of their claims. In fact, this is what "scientific creationists" want. They desire to have their claim tested on its scientific merit, rather than prejudicially dismissed as a religious view. If this is the scientific creationism article, then this page is the Creationism v Evolution page. It is on this page that the debate is allowed to appear undecided, so that the debate can be understood. Mkmcconn \

The Evolution article is different. It is a science page, where the finding of fact is reported: like reporting on the present understanding of how electricity works. It doesn't make much sense for a description of the present state of understanding to be interrupted with questions that have been answered in the past. The problem is clutter, redundancy, and confusion. Mkmcconn \

The answer is scope. Here, the scope of the topic touches on religion and science. It is not a theology page, but it invites theological debate; and the scientists say that it isn't science, but it invites interaction with science on its own terms. Each article is scoped, to allow in one place what is excluded somewhere else. Here, creation and design are treated as testable scientific issues; on a theology page they are not, and on the Evolution page they are not. In my opinion, that's an accurate report of the present state of these issues, with regard to Creationism. Mkmcconn 15:18 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Some duplication here because of contention for the edit privilege on the page.

Rednblu, as long as this article is about the scientific views of believers in creation, who try in various ways to prove the truth of their position, then this page is the right place for writers about science to test the merit of their claims. In fact, this is what "scientific creationists" want. They desire to have their claims tested on its scientific merit, rather prejudicially dismissed as a religious view. If this is the scientific creationism article, then this page is the Creationism v Evolution page. It is on this page that the debate is allowed to appear undecided, so that the debate can be understood. Mkmcconn \

I suggest that Creationism is much more than scientific creationism whatever that might be. ''Scientific'' creationism, logically, is something like a red-hot snowball. While it is true that a red-hot snowball is a variety of snowball, snowball is much more than red-hot snowball--whatever that might be. Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The Evolution article is different.

Now you are scoffing at the creationists. They contend that are proposing the best scientific explanation for the data. You and I may disagree with prejudice but we should express that prejudice on the Creationism versus evolution page. Why not let the creationists express their view on the Creationism page--just like we let the evolutionists express their view on the Evolution page? Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It is a science page, where the finding of fact is reported: like reporting on the present understanding of how electricity works.

Surely the finding of fact is very different from establishing the probable cause for the fact!! By your standard, creationism would be fact up until at least 1809!! Not a very useful standard, I suggest. Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It doesn't make much sense for a description of the present state of understanding to be interrupted with questions that have been answered in the past. The problem is clutter, redundancy, and confusion. Mkmcconn \

Sorry. Your argument here makes no sense to me. You seem to contradict yourself. Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree with you to this extent. It doesn't make sense for a description of alchemy to be interrupted, as it is now, with questions about chemistry that have already been answered many times in the past. Hence, I would find the current page on alchemy to be totally NON-useful for finding out what alchemy was--because the alchemy page currently does not treat alchemy. Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Now I have no interest in straightening up the alchemy page--because there are few alchemists complaining. Some things are more interesting than others. And I would rather work an area where there is controversy--so that I can learn something. Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The answer is scope. Here, the scope of the topic touches on religion and science. It is not a theology page,

Amazing! How could creationism be anything other than theology? Creationism contorts observable fact to conform to a certain view about God. Accordingly, if you remove each and every part of creationism that contorts observable fact to conform to a certain view about God, there is nothing left on the page--as I just observed here in my own laboratory in three separate experiments. Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Can you give me an example of a creationist assertion that is NOT theology, please? Just for my own edification? Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

but it invites theological debate; and the scientists say that it isn't science, but it invites interaction with science on its own terms.

It does? Surely you jest! What creationist assertion invites interaction with science on its own terms? Can you name one? Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Each article is scoped, to allow in one place what is excluded somewhere else. Here, creation and design are treated as testable scientific issues;

Let us try your two suggestions: creation and design. Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Creation is all theology because it concerns itself with the role of the Creator in initiating the universe. It would seem to me that Occam's razor would slice the Creator from any testable scientific hypothesis--unless the data contained a huge footprint of a Creator. Hence creation is about something other than what science deals with. Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Wouldn't Occam's razor also slice all elements of "design" from any testable scientific issue? Can you name for me what Occam's razor would leave as residue from a "design" hypothesis? Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

on a theology page they are not, and on the Evolution page they are not. In my opinion, that's an accurate report of the present state of these issues, with regard to Creationism. Mkmcconn 15:18 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

?? Hardly. By "creationism" you must mean creation science, which has little to do with creationism, which is about God's role in creating the

1. universe
2. soul
3. evolution
4. War in Iraq
5. miracles at Jericho
6. atheists challenging the Pledge of allegiance.

I guarantee you that there is zero data about God's non-null role in any of the above, so the "science" part of creation science will have nothing to analyze except their own benighted imaginings. Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

So very little of the creation science view on creationism should be on the Creationism page since they have nothing to say about creationism. Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Creationism was around probably as long as people have had a language. The evidence for that is the lack of languages without a Creation myth.

What do you see?
What is REALLY there!

So likely creationism is a genetic defect of men--something akin to color blindness. That is, it would be inappropriate to keep interrupting each paragraph of the color blindness page with an irrelevant statement of how vision works in healthy people. Nevertheless, it may be appropriate to have a small section on the color blindness page that explicitly states how healthy people see--just for completeness--and to make sure that the color blind do not get the idea that their vision is perfect just because the page describes exactly what they see when they look at the color blindness test pattern. Rednblu 17:12 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Rednblu, please try to express yourself in a somewhat coherent manner, and please do not break up paragraphs to insert your comment or duplicate signatures. Instead write a reply on the next indentation level. See Wikipedia:Talk page for details. Please do not expect me to read through this mess. --Eloquence 18:58 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Ok. Rednblu 19:16 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Rednblu, there's a lot of answering going on, but I'm not sure what you are saying. One thing I can say is, tell me what you think should be on this article's page, in terms of information rather than arguments. Then I think that we'll be getting somewhere, in negotiating what the content should be. Mkmcconn 23:32 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Mkm, Thanks for helping me think through this problem (puzzle). I am consulting with activists who are tackling this area in the real world. So this Talk page has been a very valuable worksheet for me in the last few days. What goes onto the Creationism page is up to you. I don't disagree with any of the content on the Creationism page.

A couple of days ago I did start a redraft of the Creationism page at Rednblu/Development/Creationism based on the conversations with you and Eloquence as part of my analysis, a "feasibility study" if you will allow me, but I got only far enough to see a fair way to structure the page and did not 1) fold in all the current Creationism page content and 2) split out the irrelevant scientific rebuttals to a Creationism versus evolution page.

However, the structure of the Evolution page seems about right to me, with the "foreign" thought process mentioned in the short section "Creationism versus Evolution." A similar brief section "Creationism versus Evolution" would be fair in the Creationism page, in my opinion.

But again, I value most what I have learned from my brief conversations with you and Eloquence and care little about what you put on the Creationism page. However, if any creationist starts arguing that the Creationism page is not fair, I will likely join in--because the current Creationism page is NOT fair to the title subject of the page. The current Creationism page is a blatant vandalism of the history of Creationism in the name of ____. I am not sure what to put into the blank because I have not figured out the pattern yet.

Thanks for your patience. Rednblu 01:42 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There are three main views on "creation" and human origins, although they surely don't have equal numbers of adherents. In chronological order of appearance, they are:

1. creationism - the view that God created everything and everybody
2. materialism - the view that everything and everyone came into existence without divine intervention
3. intelligent design - the view that various aspects of the universe and living beings show signs of having been designed

Regardless of the degree to which individual Wikipedians adhere to these 3 views, I think they make a pretty good framework for defining and discussing the various schools of thought.

We might, for example, discuss the creationism inherent in various theologies. Also, several of the currents of thought regarding evolution may be defined in terms of "God created" vs. "no divine intervention".

Most interesting for me is the conversation between various scientists on the one hand, religious believers on the other hand, and a host of thinkers in between -- on the issue of what the fossil record and other evidence brings to bear on the issues. --Uncle Ed 13:08 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Why is intelligent design required as a separate category? That is, is there any element of intelligent design that is not also a part of creationism? Rednblu 13:31 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes. The Bible is not part of intelligent design. Intelligent design is natural theology, pure and simple. Mkmcconn 13:58 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It would seem to me that the neutral empirical evidence suggests that Creationism and intelligent design pre-existed the Bible.

That is, each element of intelligent design seems to be a member of the set creationism. And apparently there are Bible and Non-Bible subsets of intelligent design. Am I wrong? Rednblu 14:30 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

We have needed to negotiate our terminology, for the sake of making progress on these articles. There is a difference in approach and conclusion, between those who take a revealed religion approach to the issues, and those who argue that reason leads to certain conclusions. It is a separate issue, from whether revelation is necessary to religion. Mkmcconn 14:55 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It seems to me that both the evolutionists and the creationists are unwilling to negotiate a terminology. So if NPOV is to mean anything real, it might be best to negotiate an approach--such as a neutral template that both evolutionists and creationists generally think is fair.

I also agree with you that the evolutionists and the creationists have diametrically opposed approaches and conclusions--which is part of the etiology of the pathological process that generally has produced POV-sick pages biased toward the evolutionists when the creationists attempted to fairly represent history. Rednblu 15:11 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

How old is the creationism argument?

Generally, it takes time to work out these disagreements. The hotter the topic, the more courtesies are required. We are working with people, rather than mathematical entities. Everyone understands that there is much more at stake than what goes into a Wikipedia article. Mkmcconn 15:27 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes. But, this creationism versus evolution argument is at least as old as Lucretius and his On the Nature of Things and that was around 58 BC. Time? How much time would you like? Why won't the evolutionists work on the Creationism page to get it to state clearly the creationists' views, while the creationists work on the Evolution page to get it to state clearly the evolutionists' views? Rednblu 15:40 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

-> I'm growing too reflective in my responses, and I'm sorry. But please bear with just a moment's more reflection. If creationism is identical to what I would rather call The doctrine of creation, then it must be noted (for example) that the Roman Catholic church, like most other traditions, has never made a final pronouncement on either the truth or the falsity of evolution, but is dogmatic concerning belief that everything is the creation of God. Evolution is a peripheral issue. That evidently is not what this article is dealing with Mkmcconn \

Yes. I agree. This page Creationism has nothing to do with evolution. Just as mathematics and architecture have nothing to do with each other--except when they accidentally intersect. That they intersect has nothing to do with either discipline intrinsically. This article should be dealing with, for example, the creationism that the Catholic Church spends its time on--NOT with the evolution that the Catholic Church does NOT spend its time on. Rednblu 22:11 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

If any theological perspective is peripheral to what we are calling creationism, but religion is essential, then it may be possible that what appears under creation beliefs (a redirect from creation myth), creator god, and a few other places, is suitable here. Mkmcconn \

It would seem to me that the theology that deals with creationism should be here. Maybe on creationism there should be some links to theology where the link would explain something about the structure of creationism. Rednblu 22:11 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

But the state of present debate is one of our guides for categories. And at the present, "creationism" is almost precisely equivalent to biblical creationism or scientific creationism. These are are various religious critiques of the atheistic theory of evolution, usually based on or referring to the Bible. In that case, this article concerns the use of scientific arguments to disprove atheism in particular (especially Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and Intelligent Design - which differ significantly between themselves). Evolution is narrowed to its aspect as an expression of atheism. This is the reason that an atheist is more likely to complain of POV in this article, than the creationists are, when defining terms key to the debate, such as "creationism", "science", "evidence", "proof", etc. Mkmcconn 17:08 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Ok. So it seems to me that the fundamental problem is how to let the creation scientists say what they see as true on this page without misleading the evolutionists into thinking that a mere scientific proof would convince the creation scientist. A mere scientific proof will not convince the creation scientist that he is wrong. Rednblu 22:11 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There are problems under "Microevolution vs. Macroevolution". The article speaks of small critters, but microevolution concerns small changes in a population. Does the author referred to, accept the macroevolution of simple organisms, but not of complex organisms? Mkmcconn 15:14 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Why is the article so US-centric? Tannin

I'm sure that it's only a reflection of what people here know best, rather than a desire to exclude anything. Mkmcconn 15:36 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Because, at least amongst nominally christian countries, outside the US Creationism is not a live issue. IIRC, Even the Vatican has accepted evolution. Something about what fundamentalist moslems/sikhs/hindus/zoroastrians think of it would be useful, though Malcolm Farmer 16:06 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It's interesting to go back through the history of this article, and see the revisions of the first paragraph. In its present form, the opening paragraph puts focus on faith in God (or anything called a god) on the one hand, and the recognition of design on the other (which, I would suppose, does not stipulate a single intelligence, nor the existence of a transcendent being of any kind, nor that design is pervasive in all things). In other words, the only alternative to atheism is creationism; and intelligent design may be atheistic, or it may be creationist. Mkmcconn 16:17 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Theoretically you may be right that intelligent design could be atheistic. But whenever has there existed an atheist that argued for intelligent design. Could you name one? Rednblu 16:28 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I'm not familiar enough with the personal beliefs of the proponents of ID, to know whether they are atheists, theists, or biblical theists, or whatever. Just thinking about their argument, however, I don't see any reason why it couldn't be adapted to the belief that existing things are the product of other evolved beings, who were themselves a product of others, ad infinitum: which is atheism. They do not argue for what the intelligence is, but only that it is evidenced. Mkmcconn 17:08 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I am mainly interested in how we could come to a NPOV statement for a Wikipedia page on whether there are atheists that argue for intelligent design. Supposedly we would have to find some atheist who actually argued something like looking at all the order among living creatures I conclude that there must have been some intelligent designer who at least designed what we see.

Historically, it does not make sense to me to 1) be an atheist and also 2) conclude that there must have been an intelligent designer. On the other hand, there have been many intelligent people throughout history who looked at the order in the universe and concluded that 1) any actual gods that you find will be composed of atoms and 2) there was NOT an intelligent designer. I cite to you Epicureanism just for starters--and those people started writing down their cogitations around 300 BC. And they evidently got the idea from some people much earlier.

So what process could we employ to actually manifest NPOV on this question in a Wikipedia page? Rednblu 17:44 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< [W]henever has there existed an atheist that argued for intelligent design. Could you name one? >>

Richard Milton. See Darwin Doesn't Work Here Anymore: Shattering the myths of Darwinism.

Please note that I do *NOT* endorse the work of this author. -- NetEsq 18:13 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

A useful example, but Richard Milton does not seem to be an atheist. Now maybe he is an atheist who is out to make a buck off the theists. The problem is: he argues basically for time sequences that cater to the market of Americans who believe the Bible. And look at the titles of his chapters: "Rock of Ages," "Tales from Before the Flood," "Fashioned from Clay." That book is not an atheist book. It may not pass the offering plate, but it is a religious exercise.

Ok, look. I will score you one point if I can refashion my question. Can you name a book, writing, or poem that expresses an atheist viewpoint and argues for intelligent design? Rednblu 19:29 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I wasn't personally aware of whether there are any advocates of ID, per se, who are convinced atheists. On the other hand, what I was describing before isn't as fake as it appears at first. There are important religions that worship highly exalted beings, but which believe these beings were in turn created by other exalted beings, and deny the existence of a transcendent being. If this is not what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches, then it is at least a common misunderstanding of their doctrine, even among their own adherents. While it would be uncharitable to call this philosophical atheism, at least it can be more fairly described as agnosticism concerning the existence of a transcendent being. You might remember Jeremy Rifkin, and his book Algeny, which did not advocate theism in the usual sense either. So, I don't really know how to answer Rednblu's question. Mkmcconn 18:51 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< A useful example, but Richard Milton does not seem to be an atheist.>>

Richard Milton is, in fact, very well known among evolutionary biologists for his categorical rejection of Biblical creationism as well as his criticism of Post-Darwinism. To wit:

"I accept that there is persuasive circumstantial evidence for evolution, but I do not accept that there is any significant evidence that the mechanism driving that evolution is the neo-Darwinian mechanism of chance mutation coupled with natural selection. Second, I do not believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old. I present evidence that currently accepted methods of dating are seriously flawed and are supported by Darwinists only because they provide the billions of years required by Darwinist theories. Because radioactive dating methods are scientifically unreliable, it is at present impossible to say with any confidence how old the Earth is."

(Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, Preface.)

I am an anthropologist by training, and I accept the Theory of Evolution at face value -- i.e., as the most reasonable and scientific explanation for the genesis of life on Earth and the origin of the human species. However, I have always found a great deal of controversy among evolutionary biologists as to the reliability of the claims made by their peers. In fact, the only thing that most evolutionary biologists seem to agree upon is that anyone who questions the scientific validity of the Theory of Evolution should be labeled a Creationist before they are promptly tarred, feathered, and then run out of town on a rail, not unlike the Cold War persecution of accused communists in the United States.

As I stated previously, I do not endorse the work of Richard Milton: His criticism of Post-Darwinism is weak at best. At the same time, he is clearly not someone who is trying to advance a religious agenda. -- NetEsq 21:18 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I find what you write very interesting. But I still see no evidence in what you write that Richard Milton is an atheist.

Or did you want to discuss whether the evolutionists are religious zealots? Rednblu 21:27 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The question here is whether there are people who question the validity of the Theory of Evolution without falling back on the explanation that some deity is responsible for creating life on Earth. There are many such people, and Richard Milton is one of the most well known. By comparison, consider the fact that there are many noteworthy scientists who question mainstream theories about the evolution of humans and think that the aquatic ape hypothesis is a much more satisfactory explanation. -- NetEsq 01:33 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Actually, the question of whether there are people who promote an openly atheistic POV and also question evolutionary theory is a lot more interesting. As Rednblue pointed out, critics of evolution seem to cater primarly toward a religious audience. It's simply good marketing to assert that you question evolutionary thought but are not religiously influenced -- "look, even scientists are coming around to our point of view" -- but it is bad marketing to openly promote a POV that will not resonate with your target audience.

Furthermore, I find your assertion that critics of evolutionary thought are "labeled a Creationist before they are promptly tarred, feathered, and then run out of town on a rail, not unlike the Cold War persecution of accused communists in the United States" highly questionable. First, persecution of accused communists in the US was openly promoted by the government and organized and coordinated by the FBI (domestic) and CIA (abroad). If the current US administration voices any opinion on the evolution vs. creationism debate, it seems more likely that they would endorse creationism, or acknowledge that there is a "legitimate controversy."

Scientists, on the other hand, are reacting to a very real and present threat that regional school policies will be successfully influenced by the heavily funded lobbyists of the religious right. Modern creationism is not a "grass-roots movement", it is an integral part of the fundamentalist agenda. I'm not aware of any legitimate criticisms that have fallen victim to this ongoing battle, but if there are any, it is the creationists who are to blame -- they have made the attempt to bring religion into the classroom and to erode the separation of church and state, the responses by biologists and cosmologists are merely a reaction to that threat of irrationalism and theocracy. There is no such parallel in the persecution of communists. --Eloquence 02:58 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< I find your assertion that critics of evolutionary thought are "labeled a Creationist before they are promptly tarred, feathered, and then run out of town on a rail, not unlike the Cold War persecution of accused communists in the United States" highly questionable. >>

Point of order: There is no love lost between me and the Fundamentalist Christians who seek to promote their religious values by impeaching the legitimacy of the Theory of Evolution, and careful reading of my post will reveal that I have no pity for such people. However, I do not think that Richard Milton falls into this category, and -- wrong as Milton may be -- I do not think that he deserves the same contempt that one might reserve for a modern day William Jennings Bryan.

On this note, leading the charge against Milton is none other than Richard Dawkins, author of The Selfish Gene, one of the most controversial books ever to be published on the subject of the Theory of Evolution. To wit, it has been apparent since at least the 1970s that genes are not evolutionary units, at least not in any functional sense, no matter how one defines genes. And if there is such a thing as a "selfish gene," it would be synonymous with an oncogene.

Rather than respond to the criticism of anti-evolutionists such as Milton, Dawkins sees fit to poison the well by labeling Milton a creationist with a religous agenda, and he ain't. He just ain't. -- NetEsq 05:30 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Do you mean that the evolutionists should argue their facts rather than attack their critics personally? I would agree. However, I must admit that, if I were Dawkins, I would find it very hard to ignore how Biblical the chapter titles of Milton's book sound. "Rock of Ages"? Come on. I know that the only time I personally use that phrase is to evoke the Bible or the hymn. In fact, I would never use that phrase in polite society--because I would know that everybody would feel the presence of the Big Bad God of the Creationists breathing down their backs. Thanks for bringing Milton's book to my attention again. I enjoyed looking it over again.

Your story reminds me of William Jennings Bryan who, on some break in the Scopes trial said to a reporter, "I am more interested in the Rock of Ages than I am in the age of rocks." Well, when Milton gives the title "Rock of Ages" to the chapter that criticizes the evolutionists radiocarbon dating methods, that sounds very suspicious to me. Maybe I am jumping to a verdict of guilty by association, but I would bet that Milton is as much of a creationist as Billy Graham or Elmer Gantry. I'm not sure either of them actually believe those fairytales either, but they make it sound convincing. I haven't heard Elmer Gantry in a while; is he still around? Thanks for having fun with me in all these arguments. ;)) Rednblu 06:42 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I suppose I'm just being obnoxious pointing it out but, "Rocks of Ages" was, of course, an interesting little book by Stephen Jay Gould, in which he seeks to point out a principled course toward avoiding conflict between theologians and scientists, through mutual respect. Although he provides his own reasons for doubting that he is a believer, he provides no reason to doubt his sincerity. Mkmcconn 07:14 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Stephen Jay Gould, God rest his soul, was one of the most principled opponents of creation science. In one interview I saw on PBS, Gould expressed great personal frustration with the tactics employed by anti-evolutionists with a religious agenda, but never did he resort to poisoning the well or other ad hominem rants when disproving specious arguments. In fact, my deep respect for Stephen Jay Gould is based upon his book The Mismeasure of Man, in which he takes on the advocates of scientific racism with the same academic poise.

The bottom line is that there are many laypersons -- and scientists -- who just don't get it when it comes to topics like evolutionary biology, but dismissing all critics of the Theory of Evolution as religious zealots when they are not in fact religious zealots only gives greater credence to the religious zealots. -- NetEsq 14:31 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. I agree. In regard to Mkm's comment, personally, I guess I put too much weight on the "realistic content" of the argument. I guess I just read too quickly by the "Rock of Ages" part of Gould's title and fall upon the "Science and Religion" part of the title. I guess I am not fair when I read Milton's text that I feel like the important part of the evolutionist argument is ignored. Milton's text feels like tearing down something that seems to me to have a lot of validity without providing me with some enticing alternative. I am supposed to jump to my own alternative explanation just by the context somehow. I too easily imagine myself looking around at all the other readers of Milton's text and I can too easily see them nodding. I too easily imagine that they are nodding becuase they are jumping to the alternative explanation of--creationism.

Am I being unfair? It seems to me that Milton spends the whole book finding fault with the evolutionists' methods, like rock dating methods. But I can't find Milton's alternative methods for interpreting the data. Does he give the alternative explanations for explaining

I give you an example of Milton's words: "Because radioactive dating methods are scientifically unreliable, it is at present impossible to say with any confidence how old the Earth is." [2] That kind of reasoning triggers my mechanisms of suspicion which are not very fair, but I would have preferred if Dawkins had been a little more polite and artistic in expressing his outrage. I would have suggested that Dawkins would have read Cyrano de Bergerac to see how Cyrano expressed artfully his outrage verbally before he sliced the insulter to ribbons with his sword.

In contrast, I think that you and I, sir, could write a book that would get the reader to tangle with the problem--figuring out where we came from--not just jump to their favorite myth that avoids the problem. Rednblu 15:10 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Thanks to all, for toning down the conversation to a decent level of civility and politeness. It's much easier to follow the thread(s) when there's a dearth of invective.

Now, how about the "creationism vs. evolution" issue, in regards to government-run public schools in America? Should that issue be in the creationism article -- or what?

Somewhere in the Wikipedia, there should be an article outlining the viewpoints of the various groups who want:

• children to be indoctrinated with the belief that God created all people, animals, etc.
• children to be indoctrinated with the beleif that people, animals, etc. simply "came into being" without God -- or without God needing to intervene, which is slightly different but actually a major legal point
• children to make up their own minds on the issue, based on scientific evidence alone (or scientific evidence combined with their religious beliefs).

You can all probably guess where I personally stand on the creationism vs. evolution controversy. Yet the issue of what I (or you) want the US government and state governments to encourage children to believe is another, separate matter. I don't actually want the goverment to indoctrinate children with my own church's views (that possibly violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment). On the other hand, I don't want goverments indoctrinating children to reject religious views (that certainly violates the Free Speech and Freedom of Religion clauses).

So, where do we go from here, fellows? --Uncle Ed 14:47 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Do you think we could some up with an organization of the pages that would allow the creationists to make their statement without being interrupted in each sentence by the evolutionists' rebuttal? It seems to me that the structure of the Evolution page does it pretty well--by keeping the rebuttal to one or two short paragraphs. There is a lot of invective that should be shunted to some other page, such as the Creationism versus Evolutionism page into which the scientific rebuttals on the current Creationism page could be moved. And maybe the invective would follow to that page. Rednblu 15:17 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Being "interrupted" is part of NPOV, writing one-sided articles is not. Ed, the teaching of evolution is not "indoctrination" -- it is exactly option 3 you propose, based on scientific evidence alone. The creationists have no scientific evidence to support their case, so instead they constantly repeat long-refuted pseudoscientific arguments. This has no place in the classroom. If a religion is incompatible with scientific thought, then so much worse for that religion. To argue that it is unconstitutional to only present scientific arguments on a subject that has nothing to do with religion is preposterous -- by the same logic you could argue that the theory of gravity should be balanced with "alternative views" because these guys think they can fly in the air if they concentrate hard enough. --Eloquence 15:31 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

*applause* :-) -- Tarquin 17:32 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Being "interrupted" is part of NPOV? I suggest that even you do not find that to be true. If you peruse /Archive 3, you can can see what continual interruption does to the statements that you made. If the "rebuttal" is made to every line, it is difficult to see what point-of-view is being rebutted. And I suggest that the current Evolution page provides a workable template. There are still a few creationist rebuttals in the Evolution page that should be moved somewhere else--just so the reader can get what the evolutionists are saying. Rednblu 15:50 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

This is an entirely different matter and purely related to article writing style. Of course every statement does not need to be answered in the same sentence, but it should be answered in the same article. As I have already explained, the evolution article reflects the current state of scientific thought -- this can be quite easily formally defined; as the statistics presented in this article demonstrate, virtually nobody in the actual relevant scientific fields questions evolutionary biology. The article here is about political pressure groups who present themselves as scientific, but are actually not part of the scientific establishment. From a scientific POV, they are a fringe group, just like the Flat Earthers. However, you have already made quite clear that you find it non-neutral to discuss all Flat Earth arguments in Flat Earth. I don't believe anybody but yourself subscribes to that interpretation of NPOV. By your logic, we will soon have:

Flat vs. Spherical Earth controversy

Gravity vs. Yogic Flying controversy

Laws of thermodynamics vs. perpetual motion machine controversy

Unicorn existence controversy. --Eloquence 15:59 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Ok. Now that you have had your tantrum, shall we discuss how we shall proceed in developing an actual NPOV approach to significant controversies? Rednblu 16:05 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

You think that was a tantrum? You have much to learn, young padawan. As I have explained several times, the article is NPOV. What it lacks is a larger section devoted to the scientific issues with more and better presented arguments. If you want to help to improve this article, summarize some of the most important FAQs from the talk.origins site. Should the section get too long eventually, we can talk again about separating it from the main article. Right now, this is not an option. --Eloquence 16:14 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Ok. Rednblu 16:20 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< So, where do we go from here, fellows? >>

Given my druthers, I'd leave this article to the tender mercies of Eloquence, as I agree in spirit with the assertion that creation science/creationism is the bane of public education and legitimate scientific inquiry. Moreover, without the context of the Theory of Evolution, there would not be an article on creation science/creationism. The same thing cannot be said about the Theory of Evolution: It stands on its own two feet.

During my college days, I encountered quite a few religious zealots who were anthropology majors, and it was rather intriguing to see them write long, drawn out, technical expositions of the mechanisms of biological evolution, then finish their essays with, "Of course, I only wrote this paper because I want a good grade. Everyone knows that the Theory of Evolution is just a bunch of crap. The true story of creation is found in the Book of Genesis in the King James Version of the Bible."

In other words, if parents want their children to learn creation science/creationism in lieu of and/or in addition to the Theory of Evolution, there is no shortage of parochial schools in the United States that will be happy to accomodate them, and these schools will do a very good job of insulating impressionable young minds from the dangers, be they real or imagined, of secular science. -- NetEsq 16:08 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree with the content of what you say. But when you operate a public arena from your strongly-held opinions, you do nothing better than fifteenth century church censorship. You are ignoring that there are valid views quite different from what you call "legitimate scientific inquiry." Rednblu 16:18 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Interruptions: It takes imagination to write these interruptions into a flowing narrative. I worry about seeming to flatter Eloquence, but I think he did a good job of organizing the material into an encyclopedic treatment of the debate, instead of a transcript of the argument. That pattern should be upheld. Mkmcconn \

Education: just to review the obvious (but it will not directly help this article). Within the creationst communities themselves, the priority of issues is in this order 1) Belief in God through 2) belief in the word of God for the sake of 3) training their children to escape the insanity of the world, to 4) make their children useful to the kingdom of God and a benefit to the world. In order to put these goals to work, they need 5) knowledge of the world. Education that consists of of the lowest 1/5 of their priorities, is useless to their purposes. They cannot all afford private education, and they do not all feel competent to educate their children on their own. They turn to the redemption of public education to the Evangelical cause, because they are tax-payers, and feel that the collection of their taxes for education, implies the privilege of control of education. Finally, these are essentially the same priorities that the Catholics have; and the fact the majority accept evolution does not change the fact that 4/5 of what they think is important, cannot be mentioned in a public school classroom. The difference is, that Catholics, due to their more stable institution, have a greater range of educational choices. And now, conservative Muslims and Sikhs are entering the picture. We are facing a situation in which public schools do not teach, even in the most general terms, what most people think is most important in education. And this would not be so bad, except that a growing number feel that the schools are, in fact, indoctrinating their children to be hostile to their parental influences. Mkmcconn 16:21 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree completely that the evolutionists are not fair in how they treat those whose highest priority is "Belief in God." Rednblu 16:35 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< You are ignoring that there are valid views quite different from what you call "legitimate scientific inquiry." >>

I'm not ignoring it, although that is a valid concern. Rather, I am expressing my own viewpoint in re the consequences of appeasing creation scientists/creationists. (I.e., "Given my druthers . . .") Ultimately, I defer to Wikipedia's NPOV policy, and I think that creation science/creationism should be discussed with the same sort of dispassionate academic demeanor observed by scholars such as Stephen Jay Gould. And for all his clear, obvious -- and eminently *rational* -- bias against creation science/creationism, I think that Eloquence has repeatedly demonstrated a keen understanding of Wikipedia's NPOV policy.

That may or may not be. We shall see. But if what you say is true, then Wikipedia's NPOV policy is NOT NPOV, as is manifested by the current Creationism page vandalism of what creationism is. Rednblu 17:02 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< [Members of creationist communities] cannot all afford private education, and they do not all feel competent to educate their children on their own. They turn to the redemption of public education to the Evangelical cause, because they are tax-payers, and feel that the collection of their taxes for education, implies the privilege of control of education. >>

You are preaching to the choir, but this is an issue that is ancillary to this article. One solution that has been proposed is funding parochial schools with tuition vouchers, a solution that is almost as controversial as the subject currently being debated. -- NetEsq 16:50 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

But it may not be a tangent from the issue, to refer to the conflation of naturalism with evolution, as an important factor in understanding this debate. Creationists have resorted to arguments of subterfuge, because they percieve that in education, evolution is a subterfuge: an insidious purpose in a respectable disguise. I don't know if this helps the article, but I think it's not off-topic. Mkmcconn 16:59 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Not necessarily off-topic, but an ancillary issue, and probably better suited for the Creationism vs. Evolution controversy article. -- NetEsq 17:15 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree that the struggle over American public school education is at the heart of the phenomenon of creationism in America. I think that is a good insight. In fact, I would say that the struggle over American public school education is just another replay with modern scientific weapons the struggle between Epicureanism and creationism back in the days before any of the speciations of the Catholic Church or progeny. So what would be a NPOV presentation of that struggle that has taken on many what you call "disguises." Rednblu 17:13 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<<[I]f what you say is true, then Wikipedia's NPOV policy is NOT NPOV. >>

True enough. Wikipedia's NPOV policy is not aptly named. In fact, Wikipedia's NPOV policy requires a balanced presentation of noteworthy biased viewpoints. To wit, "The vast majority of scientists reject creation science as pseudo science, and this is why. . . ." -- NetEsq 17:15 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

And I have no personal interest in turning the Wikipedia NPOV policy into an actual NPOV policy. I am fascinated by the vehement evangelism hiding under that Wikipedia "NPOV" policy. So, in the spirit of discovering what is under that vehemnt evangelism, I propose that the Creationism page should take on at least the actual NPOV of the Evolution page. That is, the rebuttal in the Creationism page should be confined to one paragraph containing a summary of the main rebuttal points, with a link to another page of the detailed line-by-line blood letting between the barbarians' views and what the majority of ___s say. Rednblu 17:37 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

What has happened here is that the evolutionists have established an official censorship over the content of the Creationism page to prevent the development of a NPOV page that explains what creationism is.

So I propose the development of a NPOV page on creationism away from the current powers of the evolutionist censors. For example, we could start a NPOV page on creationism at User:Rednblu/Creationism. Alternatively, you might start a NPOV page on creationism under your own LogonId. We will maintain a link at the top of this page to where the actual NPOV development is occurring.

I am curious to see what an actual NPOV page on creationism would say.

Before you participate in such a revolutionary act, I suggest that you consider what participation in this project will cost you when the evolutionist censors come after you. Rednblu 12:16 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Anybody who throws around terms like "evolutionist censors" does not really appear to be interested in NPOV. And any links on this page to the user namespace will be deleted. This isn't censorship but standard Wikipedia protocol that separates the user from the article namespace. Let's all concentrate our best efforts on this article instead of forking things. --mav 19:40 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Interesting and symptomatic response.

Clearly this page, being Talk:Creationism, is a talk page, and, like most talk pages is hardly ever NPOV.

Furthermore, this page, being Talk:Creationism, is a talk page, and, like most talk pages will accept any links to the user namespace, as in, for example, if you hadn't noticed, the link to User:Maveric149 that the system inserts in place of the 4~s that you put at the end of your "interesting" response above. Rednblu 04:31 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I think what mav said was unintentionally ambiguous, but if I read him correctly, I think when he said "this" page, he was referring to the actual article Creationism and not the current page, i.e. not Talk:Creationism. Let's all keep cool and not jump to conclusions, we can all work together. --Lexor 05:00 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

What Lexor said. -- NetEsq 05:44 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Stop it, Rednblu; please, just stop it. You are driving me crazy with your rants about NPOV, and calling Maveric "diseased" (via your Bartleby link) is the last straw.

We don't need seven different articles on creationism. All we need is one article, explaining what creationists believe and why. How much opposition should be in the article, and how that opposition should be organized, is all we should be discussing here.

Of course, I disagree with Eloquence and Tarquin on the issue itself, but the reason they trust me (and miss me when I take vacations!) is that I consistently try to approach every topic neutrally and treat each contributor with respect.

I beg you to join me in placing civility #1 on your list, as well as to come to a better understanding of what "neutral" means in terms of Wikipedia articles. --Uncle Ed 14:17 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I understand. However, it seems to me that creationists should get as much chance to explain creationism without interruption from the "scientific point of view" as the evolutionists get to explain evolution without interruption from the "creationist point of view" on the Evolution page.

Personally, I put my all my bets on Evolution. So my only interest here is to assist you in getting to express your point of view with no more interruption from the "scientific point of view" on Creationism than creationism is allowed to interrupt the very lucid presentation of the Evolution page.

I think Mkm's comment about the unfair "conflation of naturalism with evolution" is key to fixing what is wrong with the Creationism page.

What are your thoughts? Rednblu 15:11 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

My thoughts are that I don't see any major problems with the creationism article. If I did, I would fix it! ^_^ Of course, I did think about the "interruption issue" over the weekend: so if the flow of the article becomes too choppy, then we can always re-organize it into sections: "What creationists believe" & "Arguments in favor of creationism", followed by "Arguments against creationism" -- which could potentially isolate (or separate) the pro- from the con- a bit more. But, honestly, does anyone think that's really necessary at this point? --Uncle Ed 18:56 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Don't you think a format more like the Evolution page would be clearer? The Evolution page has only a couple of paragraphs of rebuttal. I think it is fair that the evolutionists shunted most of the counter-argument somewhere else, because if I look at the Evolution page, I want to get a clear picture of what Evolution is. I have no criticism of what is now on the Creationism page, but it isn't much about Creationism has to say without the kickback of the "scientific point-of-view."

But you answered my question. You think the Creationism page is allright.

Sorry about the shouting I did. But I thought you and Mkm were working on an important idea that the Creationism versus Evolution was about the unfairness of the Evolutionists indoctrinating children to a godless view on life. I agree that is unfair. Rednblu 19:16 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Assuming, arguendo, that Evolutionists are indoctrinating impressionable young children to a Godless view on life, it is unfair. As it stands, that loaded assertion is hardly a given, but it is a legitimate concern for religious parents whose children are subject to compulsory education, a concern that goes far beyond the controversy surrounding creationism/creation science. It reaches into many other controversial topics, most notably sex education. However, there is no pseudo-scientific quasi-religious parallel for sex education, so conservative religious forces simply do their best to censor the lesson plan in public schools when it comes to courses that offer "too much information." -- NetEsq 20:15 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

From a systems point-of-view, I would say there is something wrong in the sense of dysfunctional about the Creationism versus evolution controversy in America. And Uncle Ed and Mkm got me to thinking that, perhaps, the systemic reaction is not about whether the creationists or the evolutionists are right, but about how unfair it is that the public schools are anti-religious.

I would guess that, judging from the reaction of the creationist part of the system, the creationists feel more pain about, what they cognize as, the religious indoctrination in evolution than they do about the sinfulness of sex education. Just a hypothesis. After all, there is no visible campaign to remove the Nineteenth chapter of the Book of Judges from the Holy Bible!

Several people here have dug at this: The Creationism versus evolution debate is not about science. It is about ____. You fill in the blank. Creation science is a disguise for something else that American creationists are buzzed about. Rednblu 20:34 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Concerns about creationism and evolutionism in public schools

<< Judging from the reaction of the creationist part of the system, the creationists feel more pain about, what they cognize as, the religious indoctrination in evolution than they do about the sinfulness of sex education. >>

That has not been my experience. As a whole, religious conservatives are *VERY* concerned that their children are being taught *ANYTHING* about sex in the public school system, much more so than they are about whether Creationism is being given equal time alongside the Theory of Evolution. In fact, a common assertion that is made by religious conservatives is that their "children don't need to learn about sex until after they're married!" In the rare instances where I've been able to point out that the Bible is full of all sorts of salacious material -- e.g., Lot and his daughters; the Song of Songs -- and that it is highly advisable for adolescent girls to start visiting a gynecologist regularly before the onset of menarche, I am quickly labeled a Godless heathen. -- NetEsq 21:04 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Generalizing, religious conservatives talk much more openly about sex than you seem to think; but, they don't trust the internet, George Carlin, their public school health officer, or you (apparently) to be the one to teach their children about it. They typically believe that the public schools are outside of their competence, and the proof of it is that they treat issues of sexuality as though they were religiously neutral. There are analogies here, to the creation/evolution debate. Mkmcconn 21:18 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Ahh. I can see that that could be so--if the parent's religion expressed strong views that ran counter to early teaching about sex. So maybe we could produce a generalized page that would capture the "systemic structure" of the debate. Maybe the name of the page is Religion versus anti-religion (America). And sex education would be one section and evolution would be another section. Rednblu 21:37 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

This makes sense to me. Creationists aren't so much against evolution specifically, as they are against their children being taught things that they don't agree with in general, and evolution is an easy target. Quux 21:38 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

So shall we design a new page on part of that topic? Rednblu 21:48 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I'm convinced that this sort of general view of things would best be derived by readers for themselves, from reading various articles that illustrate the issues. The clash, or perceived culture-war, between religion and anti-religion in the US, is illustrated for some people everywhere. I can't imagine one article that would presume to sum all of that up (NPOV): especially since it is part of the culture-war, according to some who think they are fighting one, that the other side denies that such a culture-war is taking place. Mkmcconn 21:53 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Maybe. Just for an experiment with NPOV on that issue, I drew up a page on atomism. That is the evolutionist side. Similarly, there must be a fair and NPOV way to talk about the creationist side of the culture war. What do you think? Rednblu 22:07 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

<< Generalizing, religious conservatives talk much more openly about sex than you seem to think; but, they don't trust the internet, George Carlin, their public school health officer, or you (apparently) to be the one to teach their children about it. >>

Actually, I have a great deal of sympathy for conservative parents who wish to shield their children from agendas which the parents find objectionable, be they religious agendas, secular agendas, humanistic agendas, or simply libertine agendas, and -- in the instances where I have had the opportunity to do so -- I have been more than willing to intercede on behalf of the religious conservatives who want nothing more than the opportunity to raise their own children as they see fit. At the same time, I think it is somewhat disingenuous to say that most religious conservatives speak openly about sex, even amongst themselves. I am very familiar with such people, given that I have a first cousin who teaches Greek and Hebrew at a seminary, and his grandfather (no blood relation to me) donated an entire gymnasium to Pepperdine University. My cousin, his parents, and the benefactors of my cousin's grandfather would be the first to admit that their values are puritanical, and that they see a great deal of danger inherent in the frank and open discussion of the taboo topic of sexuality. God only knows why they tolerate my frequent challenges to their world view. -- NetEsq 22:52 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

This is rather off-topic here -- please move it elsewhere before it turns into an interesting, insightful discussion.—Eloquence 22:59 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

(To NetEsq discussing the format of an article that gets at the real problem underlying the Creationism versus evolution debate.)

Why, you must have the gift that promotes toleration!

I am not sure that I agree with you that parents should decide how a child should be raised. From my own experience as a child, I learned at least as much from opposing my parents, both of them, singly and together, as I did from allowing them to control what I heard in school, did in my life, or learned about sex.

So underlying this issue of creationism is a huge problem about whether parents should be allowed to determine even the school to which children go--or the curriculum in the classroom. It is a question. And we could write a gorgeous article on the issue. The easiest format might be a historical thread that we could follow--maybe in a narrow geographical region--presumably in the United States, because every other civilized country has come up with untroubling solutions for educating children, whether on evolution, creationism, or sex. Rednblu 23:13 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)