View source for Talk:Apostrophe

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== ' with figures: ' = foot and 2' = inch ==

' combined with figures: Now I see in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inch

For length indications ' is foot and 2' this is inch. 

And as I know, for degree indications on the globe ' is minute and 2' is second.

And as I use it for time indications also ' is minute and 2' is second.

Michael Palomino, history - sociology - natural medicine --[[Special:Contributions/2A02:1210:4EC1:B900:ECAB:4BE1:2948:4128|2A02:1210:4EC1:B900:ECAB:4BE1:2948:4128]] ([[User talk:2A02:1210:4EC1:B900:ECAB:4BE1:2948:4128|talk]]) 14:22, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
:No. {{char|′}} ([[prime symbol|prime]]) is [[Foot (unit)|foot]] or [[minute]] and {{char|″}} ([[double prime]]) is [[inch]] or [[second]]. See the linked articles. Where are you getting your alternatives from?

:[[User:Peter M. Brown|Peter Brown]] ([[User talk:Peter M. Brown|talk]]) 17:17, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

== Dester13 ==

Hi there Peter M. Brown. Why are you trying to revert Apostrophe edits while i’m putting a single quote reference and lessly a quotation mark. I just needed because i definitely heard “Single Quote” in Google Translate and i can saw a [‘] lessly differ from a quotation mark. Please reply to me now. [[User:Dester13|Dester13]] ([[User talk:Dester13|talk]]) 15:15, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
:Dester13: please clarify.  "Lessly" isn't an English word. By "i can saw", do you mean "I can see"?  What are you asking [[Google Translate]] to translate?
:What's this about a reference?  You didn't introduce a reference into the lead sentence.
:As I noted in my edit summary, context determines whether {{Big|{{char|'}}}} or {{Big|{{char|’}}}} is an apostrophe or a single quote.  I don't know of any satisfactory account, in Wikipedia or elsewhere, as to just ''how'' context does this.
:Per [[MOS:STRAIGHT]], "Curly quotation marks and apostrophes are deprecated on the English Wikipedia."  Please don't use them, though you may mention them.
:[[User:Peter M. Brown|Peter Brown]] ([[User talk:Peter M. Brown|talk]]) 17:35, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
::Okay then. I know, but in Google Translate, i type [‘] and it heard “Single Quote” rather than apostrophe. So that’s why I have to add it sure Peter Brown. Answer? [[User:Dester13|Dester13]] ([[User talk:Dester13|talk]]) 00:25, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
:::That's a peculiarity of [[Google Translate]]. According to Wikipedia, [[Translation]] "is the communication of the meaning of a source-language text by means of an equivalent target-language text." Words and sentences have meaning; punctuation marks have functions, not meanings, and the output of a translation algorithm when the input is meaningless is therefore unpredictable. Another translation website might respond "apostrophe". Yet another might respond "Zimbabwe".
:::You're still using curly quotes, as in {{font color|red|“Single Quote”}}. So long as you're contributing to Wikipedia, don't.
:::[[User:Peter M. Brown|Peter Brown]] ([[User talk:Peter M. Brown|talk]]) 02:51, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
:::Dester13, the symbol has (at least) two uses: apostrophe ''and'' single quote. So which one is "correct" depends entirely on context. On computer systems, it has at least two [[code point]]s, one for the curved form (used in most books) and another for the straight form (as seen on computer keyboards and typewriters). Wikipedia uses the straight form because it is easier to type. (See also [[prime symbol]], which looks fairly similar but is not the same.) --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 11:59, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
::::I swear sure both Peter Brown and JMF. I just heard "Single Quote" in Google Translate when i typed ['] so that's why is a term for apostrophe. See, i went to Google Translate and i typed ['], and then i listen and it just heard "Single Quote". That's why i have to put the term on Wikipedia. For examples like other punctuation marks: Quotation Marks ["] is also known Quotes after hearing it on Google Translate.
::::So that's why we're here to discuss. Reply? [[User:Dester13|Dester13]] ([[User talk:Dester13|talk]]) 13:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
:::::Google translate is misleading you. You need to use a source that is actually [[WP:RS|reliable]], like a book on English grammar. [[User:MrOllie|MrOllie]] ([[User talk:MrOllie|talk]]) 13:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
:::::Google Translate is not wrong but it has only given you one of the two correct answers. Translate is too simple for a case like this, it prefers full sentences where it can work out the context to give to most likely answer. What you is need is a "AI" bit, something like Google's [[Bard (chatbot)]] at bard.google.com. Give it this request: {{code|What is the name of the symbol '}} the ''observe that it offers you three answers''. The first says that it is an apostrophe, the second says single quote and the third agrees with the first. [[User:John Maynard Friedman|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 13:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
:Getting back to the point, {{Big|{{char|'}}}} can represent various things, including the apostrophe and the single quote. But this article isn't about the {{Big|{{char|'}}}} character, it is about one of its uses, namely the apostrophe. There's [[Quotation mark|another article]] about its other main use as a single quote. [[User:Rosbif73|Rosbif73]] ([[User talk:Rosbif73|talk]]) 14:09, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
::I suspect that the issue may be that [[']] redirects to [[Apostrophe]], not to [[' (disambiguation)]]. Because that is its most common use, especially in en-us. And the article does have a hat note saying that other uses exist. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 14:53, 16 June 2023 (UTC) {{small|clarfied --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 14:55, 16 June 2023 (UTC)}}
:::I agree with [[User:Rosbif73|Rosbif73]] and [[User:MrOllie|MrOllie]].  [[Google Translate]] and [[Bard (chatbot)]] are beside the point as they are not reliable sources and anyhow are irrelevant to the wording of the lead sentence of the article.
:::I have altered the redirect target of [[']]. [[User:Peter M. Brown|Peter Brown]] ([[User talk:Peter M. Brown|talk]]) 15:58, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
::::Okay then all users. So here the first answer of ['] is commonly Apostrophe which we all name it, and second answer is Single Quote that i just recently heard it from Google Translate and it's a term. So four of users you should heard it too by enter it's website, type ['], then listen to it to see if you're right. And then we will think about putting a term on the Apostrophe article. Clear sure? 
[[User:Dester13|Dester13]] ([[User talk:Dester13|talk]]) 16:29, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
::No. Your use of [[Google Translate]] is [[WP:NOR|original research]], which cannot be used in Wikipedia. The same goes for 𝕁𝕄𝔽's use of [[Bard (chatbot)]]. This remains true even if the rest of us get the same result. [[User:Peter M. Brown|Peter Brown]] ([[User talk:Peter M. Brown|talk]]) 16:56, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
:::I agree with Peter's analysis and conclusion. I mentioned Bard only to help Dester13 understand that the symbol has two meanings in English. This article is about apostrophe as a concept, it is not about the symbol. --[[User:John Maynard Friedman|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 17:29, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
::::Got it then both. Apostrophe was the main term of [‘], but when i typed [‘] in Google Translate, suddenly it just heard “Single Quote” and that’s another term for Apostrophe in Wikipedia. That’s not a problem. I swear and agrees to me. [[User:Dester13|Dester13]] ([[User talk:Dester13|talk]]) 22:03, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
:No! "Single quote" is {{Big|NOT}} "another term for Apostrophe in Wikipedia" or elsewhere. Stop referring to Google Translate, which ''cannot'' assign a determinate meaning to an isolated symbol that is used in various ways. (It's unfortunate that it even tries.) As 𝕁𝕄𝔽 noted, this article is about the apostrophe as a concept, not about the symbol.  You have no basis for claiming that "single quote" is a name for the apostrophe. [[User:Peter M. Brown|Peter Brown]] ([[User talk:Peter M. Brown|talk]]) 23:23, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
*For those of us still anchored here on planet earth, can someone explain what in tarnation you bunch are talking about? [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]] 00:42, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
*:Okay then EEng. I will stop thinking about that. [[User:Dester13|Dester13]] ([[User talk:Dester13|talk]]) 01:14, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
*:@[[User:EEng|EEng]]: Dester13 keeps changing the lead of various articles in an attempt to clarify other terms ''supposedly'' meaning the main subject of an article. It ends up usually being inaccurate or incorrect. [[User:Fork99|Fork99]] ([[User talk:Fork99|talk]]) 01:33, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
*::We know that already sure Fork99. [[User:Dester13|Dester13]] ([[User talk:Dester13|talk]]) 01:34, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
*:::No, but we don’t know why you keep relying on Google Translate. Language translation is a very very very complex process. Before the rise of artificial intelligence, it was almost impossible for a machine to accurately translate an English word like ‘ball’ into other languages. It could mean a ‘formal dance party’ or ‘a physical object that is usually round-shaped that is used in playing various sports’. With this in mind, please stop relying on Google Translate, and instead either learn the language or ask a native English speaker whether a particular term actually means something or not. In fact, you could use this very talk page to ask something like “I’m not a native speaker of English, but does the term X mean Y? If I’m correct, could someone please clarify this for me in the article?” [[User:Fork99|Fork99]] ([[User talk:Fork99|talk]]) 02:05, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
*::::Okay then. [[User:Dester13|Dester13]] ([[User talk:Dester13|talk]]) 02:24, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

== Possesive decades ==

"Droughts and floods will be 2020's lasting memory" refers only to the one year 2020?

"Droughts and floods will be 2020s' lasting memory" refers to the whole decade?
[[Special:Contributions/2001:8A0:5E59:9801:DC2F:AD61:7A73:67AF|2001:8A0:5E59:9801:DC2F:AD61:7A73:67AF]] ([[User talk:2001:8A0:5E59:9801:DC2F:AD61:7A73:67AF|talk]]) 16:14, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

:Put the word "the" before the decade to indicate a decade. "2020's floods" are the floods during the year 2020. "The 2020's floods" are the floods during the decade 2020-2029. [[User:Spitzak|Spitzak]] ([[User talk:Spitzak|talk]]) 16:21, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

== Pronunciation of ''Loch'' ==

The explanation of Breton ''{{lang|br|c'h}}'' has recently been changed from {{tq|like ''ch'' in ''Loch Ness''}} to {{tq|like ''ch'' in [[Scots language|Scots]] ''Loch Ness''}}, and again to {{tq|like ''ch'' in English and [[Scots language|Scots]] ''Loch Ness''}} with an edit summary "Properly pronounced that way in English, too". Indeed it is, but how many non-Scots are aware of that? In my experience, the majority of English speakers outside Scotland pronounce ''Loch'' as if it were ''Lock''. I propose changing back to just mentioning Scots... Thoughts? [[User:Rosbif73|Rosbif73]] ([[User talk:Rosbif73|talk]]) 06:47, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
:Lots and lots of non-Scots are aware of that, just perhaps not that many of them in America. I oppose to changing back to just mentioning Scots, since obviously far, far fewer English speakers have any idea at all of how anything in Scots is pronounced, and finding out is harder than finding out from any English-language dictionary how to pronounce (the preferred, first-listed way) ''loch'' in English. We could perhaps also mention the ''ch'' in German {{lang|de|achtung}}, but you're right back where you started: most Americans are apt to say "aktung". <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 08:48, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
::The current version that uses the term [[Scottish English]] seems to me to be the best compromise. Most English people at least recognise that they are gutterally challenged and are aware that "loch" and "lock", as the Scots say it, are not the same. The fact that few can reproduce it (any more than they can a French R) is neither here nor there. For Americans, again the fact that we have taken the time and space to make a distinction is enough. After all, we all just speak British anyway. --[[User:JMF|𝕁𝕄𝔽]] ([[User talk:JMF|talk]]) 10:00, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
:::I'm not convinced of the level of awareness of the Scottish pronunciation of ''ch'' in the general population of England (and have no idea of the level of awareness in other non-Scots), but I agree that using the term [[Scottish English]] is a good compromise. [[User:Rosbif73|Rosbif73]] ([[User talk:Rosbif73|talk]]) 10:15, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
:::Works for me. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 15:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)