Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ilmater: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Latest revision as of 09:36, 24 May 2022

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There is clearly no consensus to delete this article. Discussion indicates a lot of quite interesting back-and-forth about keeping the article as a standalone, vs. merging to List of Forgotten Realms deities. ("Deities" looks misspelled no matter how you spell it....). That is a discussion beyond the jurisdiction of WP:AfD, so I invite all interested users to the Talk pages of the articles. NOTE: This "No Consensus" close is not mandating or even endorsing an as-is "Keep" of the article. We simply do not have a consensus to delete the material. Joyous! | Talk 01:23, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ilmater

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This article fails to establish notability. TTN (talk) 23:48, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. TTN (talk) 23:48, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. TTN (talk) 23:48, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep mostly an IAR !vote I'll admit, but there are dozens of books and tons of references to this fictional god. Not much in the way of 3rd party sources that I can find however. Hobit (talk) 02:49, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Hobit, or merge to List of Forgotten Realms deities. BOZ (talk) 04:51, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep like Hobit, I agree this is a substantially-covered fictional deity, although since based on an historic mythological deity of essentially the same name, the RS coverage is quite conflated. If there IS to be a merge, however, I think Ilmatar is a more appropriate target, and this then becoming an IPC section. Jclemens (talk) 18:44, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to List of Forgotten Realms deities. I disagree that this fictional deity is well documented, as every single source available was published by TSR/Wizards of the Coast, making them completely first party sources. I've done a rather extensive search, and I can find zero reliable third party sources that talk about the fictional deity in question in any sort of detail, rather than the actual, real life one that has no relation. Ilmatar is not an appropriate target for a merge, because the Forgotten Realms deity is not really based on the real-life Finnish one at all. Their functions, stories, and even genders are completely different from one another, making this a case of the two just happening to have very similar names, not that one was based on the other in any way, shape, or form. 75.82.28.71 (talk) 20:31, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, I couldn't find a relationship either. Hobit (talk) 08:46, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to List of Forgotten Realms deities. I am not convinced that Hobit's arguments are grounded in policy; we determine whether fictional characters are notable based on third party coverage, not the number of primary sources we can find. Concerning Jclemens's suggestion that this should be merged to Ilmatar, I would want to see a decent source confirming that there is a relationship between the two, not least because of the worries raised by 75.82.28.71. Josh Milburn (talk) 03:53, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- The only policy I'm claiming is IAR. Which I'm pretty sure this is grounded in. :-) Hobit (talk) 08:46, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, that's fair, my apologies. Let me rephrase: "I am not convinced that Hobit's arguments are well-grounded in our notability guidelines, and I am not seeing a compelling case to ignore our guidelines in this case; we determine whether fictional characters are notable based on third party coverage, not the number of primary sources we can find." Josh Milburn (talk) 20:31, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect as we've established numerous times here at AfD as it is, and anyone familiar with these in the past will know that they're not inherited notability from the series itself, hence only known for said series. SwisterTwister talk 20:43, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to List of Forgotten Realms deities per above comments. Lack of third-party sources to support that this is notable enough for its own article, and I believe a more clear connection would have to be made with Ilmatar to support a merge with that page. Aoba47 (talk) 20:36, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Jclemens. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:35, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+<div class="boilerplate afd vfd xfd-closed" style="background-color: #F3F9FF; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
+:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).  No further edits should be made to this page.''
+<!--Template:Afd top
+Note:  If you are seeing this page as a result of an attempt to re-nominate an article for deletion, you must manually edit the AfD nomination links to create a new discussion page using the name format of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PAGENAME (2nd nomination)]].  When you create the new discussion page, please provide a link to this old discussion in your nomination. -->
+The result was '''no consensus'''. There is clearly no consensus to delete this article. Discussion indicates a lot of quite interesting back-and-forth about keeping the article as a standalone, vs. merging to [[List of Forgotten Realms deities]]. ("Deities" looks misspelled no matter how you spell it....). That is a discussion beyond the jurisdiction of [[WP:AfD]], so I invite all interested users to the Talk pages of the articles. '''NOTE:''' This "No Consensus" close is not mandating or even endorsing an as-is "Keep" of the article. We simply do not have a consensus to delete the material. [[User:Joyous!|Joyous!]] | [[User_talk:Joyous%21|Talk]] 01:23, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
 ===[[:Ilmater]]===
-{{REMOVE THIS TEMPLATE WHEN CLOSING THIS AfD|F}}
 :{{la|Ilmater}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ilmater|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2016 December 2#{{anchorencode:Ilmater}}|View log]]</noinclude>{{int:dot-separator}} <span class="plainlinks">[https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ilmater Stats]</span>)
@@ Line 11: / Line 18: @@
 *'''Keep''' like Hobit, I agree this is a substantially-covered fictional deity, although since based on an [http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/finnish-mythology.php?deity=ILMATAR historic mythological deity] of essentially the same name, the RS coverage is quite conflated.  If there IS to be a merge, however, I think [[Ilmatar]] is a more appropriate target, and this then becoming an IPC section. [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 18:44, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
 *'''Merge''' to [[List of Forgotten Realms deities]].  I disagree that this fictional deity is well documented, as every single source available was published by TSR/Wizards of the Coast, making them completely first party sources.  I've done a rather extensive search, and I can find zero reliable third party sources that talk about the fictional deity in question in any sort of detail, rather than the actual, real life one that has no relation.  [[Ilmatar]] is not an appropriate target for a merge, because the Forgotten Realms deity is not ''really'' based on the real-life Finnish one at all.  Their functions, stories, and even genders are completely different from one another, making this a case of the two just happening to have very similar names, not that one was based on the other in any way, shape, or form.  [[Special:Contributions/75.82.28.71|75.82.28.71]] ([[User talk:75.82.28.71|talk]]) 20:31, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
+**Yeah, I couldn't find a relationship either. [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 08:46, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
+*'''Merge''' to [[List of Forgotten Realms deities]]. I am not convinced that Hobit's arguments are grounded in policy; we determine whether fictional characters are notable based on third party coverage, not the number of primary sources we can find. Concerning Jclemens's suggestion that this should be merged to [[Ilmatar]], I would want to see a decent source confirming that there is a relationship between the two, not least because of the worries raised by 75.82.28.71. [[User:J Milburn|Josh Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 03:53, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
+**The only policy I'm claiming is IAR.  Which I'm pretty sure this is grounded in. :-)  [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 08:46, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
+***Yes, that's fair, my apologies. Let me rephrase: "I am not convinced that Hobit's arguments are well-grounded in our notability guidelines, and I am not seeing a compelling case to ignore our guidelines in this case; we determine whether fictional characters are notable based on third party coverage, not the number of primary sources we can find." [[User:J Milburn|Josh Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 20:31, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
+*'''Redirect''' as we've established numerous times here at AfD as it is, and anyone familiar with these in the past will know that they're not inherited notability from the series itself, hence only known for said series. [[User:SwisterTwister|<span style="color:green;">'''S'''wister'''T'''wister</span>]] [[User talk:SwisterTwister|<span style="color:green;">talk</span>]] 20:43, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
+*'''Merge''' to [[List of Forgotten Realms deities]] per above comments. Lack of third-party sources to support that this is notable enough for its own article, and I believe a more clear connection would have to be made with [[Ilmatar]] to support a merge with that page. [[User:Aoba47|Aoba47]] ([[User talk:Aoba47|talk]]) 20:36, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
+*'''Keep''' per Jclemens. [[User:FreeKnowledgeCreator|FreeKnowledgeCreator]] ([[User talk:FreeKnowledgeCreator|talk]]) 23:35, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
+{{clear}}
+:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>