User talk:Pioneer-12

Previous discussions can be found here:

User talk:Pioneer-12/Archive0000001

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I may take up to several days to respond to messages, as Wikipedia is just one of many things that I do in my free time.

patterns of semantic heuristics in conglomerate milieus

The patterns are everywhere.... you know this. Why? Have you fancied an idea to gravitate them into globular clusters, or just search the endless galexy for inteligent life? Then what? TTLightningRod 21:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wow, 6 projects! Scattered across wikipedia or scattered across the net? Drawing them together sounds like a great idea. Even if the different projects want to retain their independence, there's no good reason for them not to want to coordinate with each other. - Pioneer-12 20:39, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I like that signature, you should use it more often. Nice selections too. TTLightningRod

A touch overwhelming, but that's why I'm here.

Your input has been fantastic. TTLightningRod

Editing other people's comments is not proper. However, you have the right to edit your own comments. The good thing about wikis is: if you make a mistake, you can go back and change it. The bad thing about wikis is: your mistakes usually persist in the edit history.

And I consider that site to be more of an "idea bakery" then "half baked". :-)

- Pioneer-12 19:23, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Advantages... or abilites

I have implemented your Advantages... or abilites suggestion just for categories. A synergy section has also been started. I am requesting your participation in the conversion of the categories sections to an abilities format. As well as helping to develop the synergy section. I am referring to the blue box at Wikipedia talk:Categories, lists, and series boxes. -- John Gohde 04:25, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's a good start, but, for fairness and consistency, the perspective of abilities needs to be applied to all three tools simultaneously. I adjusted the section titles, but the entire box needs to be revaluated using the perspective of abilities. Maybe we need a new box. - Pioneer-12 20:36, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Fair Use on the Commons

Hi - I added a comment to commons:Commons_talk:Licensing#Fair_Use - have a look, I hope I was able to clarify this. -- G. Gearloose (?!) 21:09, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Are you Duesentrieb on the commons? Yes, the feedback has been very helpful. Now if we could just update the software to make integration bewteen the commons image archives and wikipedia image archives seamless. Currently, image linking is seamless, but uploading and searching for images on two seperate archives is a pain in the a**. - Pioneer-12 22:03, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Re: Theft

That's pretty funny. In fact, when I registered I was surprised that it wasn't already taken. You should have gotten here five months ago. It describes me perfectly. Although "Pioneer-12" is a great idea for a name too. Well, I'm sure I'll be seeing you around again. Happy editing! — Knowledge Seeker দ 07:59, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I was here on occasion five months ago; I just didn't bother to log in till recently. Rats! I should have reserved the name in case I needed it later. That's ok. You deserve it.

And happy editing to you too. - Pioneer-12 08:09, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bloopers ; references

Please do go ahead and re-add those that have references back in. Be careful to explicitly tie a list member to a reference (like on the movie page) and we'll get this page kept (albeit with different name and content, but its the thought that counts) yet despite all those trigger-happy deleters. Pcb21| Pete 23:16, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I want to donate photos

If you have a few moments, might you help me bring some photos into an article. I shot some quick images of Sible Edmonds this morning at the DC federal court house. Her articale is only a single line or two, but it will be growing quite a bit this summer. Thought I might be able to prime the pump. Let me know... TTLightningRod 05:46, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'll try to help. What sort of help do you need? - Pioneer-12 01:05, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

AIW

Not that I know of. What is the page? I will read it and vote. --Merovingian (t) (c) 03:37, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

Never mind; I've voted. --Merovingian (t) (c) 04:14, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

The commentary

To me your commentary is absolutely right and, to an extent, I think what you are saying should be quite clear to everyone who has any workable definition of NPOV. There are so many new users though that it is really hard to indoctrinate them all! What I find odd is why VfD is so popular. Much of the stuff on there is such obvious crap that goodness why people bother to vote on it. Other stuff people spend much more time and energy trying to force a topic deleted rather than patching it up! Odd way to spend your free time on Wikipedia. I will try to find some more examples of where a page move solved apparent "inherently POV" problems. Pcb21| Pete 10:52, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought it was pretty obvious once you read the NPOV policy. Maybe people don't read it? It seems ridiculous to claim something is "POV" without knowing the policy on such things. But then again, people are ridiculous. Maybe users should have to pass a "policy knowledge test" before they are allowed to vote on Vfd. That would at least make sure the voters are educated. (Hey, folks. Become a "licensed deleter" today!) I'll bet many people would take the quiz just so they achieve some sort of "rank" on Wikipedia. If we give them a badge graphic to put on their home pages then people will be falling over each other to take the test.

And, you're right; people do spend way too much time on Vfd. I want to scream "Stop wasting your time trying to delete this and go do something useful!" Of all the various ways to make Wikipedia better, deleting articles is not high on the priority list. Is the encyclopedia or reader really hurt by having a few obscure "unencyclopedic" articles floating around? Oh, look, I found some extra information on Wikipedia. How dare Wikipedia have too much information! - Pioneer-12 15:31, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Working Dog Photo

Thanks for your kind comments on my 'working dog' photo. I have to say I was pretty disappointed with the general reception of it, so thanks. --Fir0002 00:55, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of the Great Boners of all time

Do not, under any circumstances, remove other people's votes. RickK 06:17, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your concern. No votes were removed, nor was there any intention of removing votes. But there needs to be a revote, as the article has been renamed and completely rewritten. I have no intention of deleting votes, but want to indicate when votes are referring to the old version of the article. Can I put a mark through obsolete votes until they are revoted? - Pioneer-12 06:23, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No. It's the same as a normal rewrite — each voter should do that him/herself (that's what happens on most "saves" after rewrites). If it weren't that way, anyone could keep an article from being deleted by simply declaring it had been rewritten. --cesarb 14:01, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK. Thanks for the information. - Pioneer-12 14:11, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've just spotted your message on user talk:GRider. Just so you're aware, GRider is currently banned from editing deletion related pages by an Abritration committee injunction. Thryduulf 10:29, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How odd. I guess he is a controversial figure. - Pioneer-12 23:24, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

roadgeek

It's a pretty common word (has appeared in newspaper articles profiling specific roadgeeks, etc). There's a short article at roadgeek. --SPUI (talk) 20:22, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I guess it would depend. If you collect them for the collecting, it makes you a collector. If you collect them to see how roads used to go, you're a roadgeek. --SPUI (talk) 20:35, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Very annoyed at the "re-vote" nonsense

I'm guessing that Master Thief Garrett is an innocent victim, and that Wikipedia:Revotes_on_Vfd was intended to be a good-faith effort to create policy, but between the two of you, you went way out of line.

In my opinion, anyway.

I strongly suggest that you just accept whatever the community opinion both on the article (even though I personally think it's keepable in present form) and on the "re-vote" concept. Just let it sting, shake it off, and go on to something else. Win a few, lose a few.

Just try to stay cool. The deletion of the "list of blunders" may be an unfair, but it's not worth fussing about. You made your case about as clearly as you could; you've convinced anyone who's going to be convinced; all you can do at this point is annoy people.

If you concede graciously nobody's going to hold anything about the incident against you. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:26, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It was all a big misunderstanding. I've done my "concession speech", if you can call it that. - Pioneer-12 23:20, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Re: speedy deletions

Dude, you were my roommate? And all this time I never knew...we should have hung out more... — Knowledge Seeker দ 10:39, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Online misunderstandings

Yep, it is amazingly easy for misunderstandings to occur in real life.

And, for reasons that I don't completely understand, it is even easier for them to occur online. It is necessary to be extremely careful about phrasing anything online. I've been doing it since CompuServe days (the 1980s) and I still haven't got it down.

The audience is huge. People don't read all your remarks carefully. You have the illusion that you're in a group of friends when in fact you're in a huge group of people many of whom you don't know.

You have to be really careful about jokes, especially irony, double meanings, and kidding. My guess is that your crack about "pesky deletionists" was probably intended to be good-humored. My own rule is that when I'm tempted to make a joke I always add in so many words "that's a joke." And then, when I see myself typing the words 'that's a joke,' I usually go back and decide the easiest thing is just not to say it.

Unfortunately, with the Wikipedia "history" mechanism,

The moving finger writes, and having writ

Moves on; nor all they piety and wit

Can lure it back to cancel half a line

Nor all thy tears wash out of word of it.

To an amazing extent, this is true of everything on line. Google, and before it Deja News, preserves everything in USENET forums, even though participants always think of it as short-term conversation. archive.org attempts to preserve the entire Web. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:10, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry

I'm sorry for assuming bad faith on your part. Looks like Dpbsmith was right after all, and it was all just a big misunderstanding. --cesarb 21:33, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the message.

I'm certainly in favor of keeping the blunders article, and it looks like there's currently more than 1/3 support for it. Nickptar 00:31, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Deletionism redir

See my argument at WP:RFD, but there are essentially two reasons. First of all, it doesn't work--if you click on the link, you aren't taken to the meta page. Second of all, it's self-referential and inappropriate to have a redirect for a wikipedia-specific term in the main namespace. Please direct further comments to wp:rfd. Best, Meelar (talk) 01:02, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

Great blunders

I'm abstaining on that vote; I think that sort of list would be very difficult to make encyclopedic, but I'm not strongly against it. I don't see how to make it good, but I'm willing to accept that someone else does. Since I can't put my money where my mouth is there, I abstain. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 01:22, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Clover Park High School vote

Thank you for voting and commenting on Clover Park High School. I think it's a very important case, because it's obviously not specially "notable" for a school, but it's still extremely important to cover this kind of thing. As you may know school articles are often very hotly contested on Vfd, I'm hoping we can persuade enough people to stop voting on notability and switch to article quality, then perhaps we can get consensus to "merge/unmerge" schools. Kappa 22:20, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thryduulf's subpage

Yes, he nominated it himself. I didn't see any reason not to carry it out, since no one else objected. No, one person is not a consensus, but since it was in his userspace and no one else saw fit to comment on why it shouldn't be deleted, I applied my best administrative judgment and nuked it. Note that the link to the VfD is in the deletion log as the reason for deleting the page, as well. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 04:42, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Usually, yes, you can put your own pages up for speedy, but Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Thryduulf/Internet/Self-destructive subcultures (proposed) states the reason why he didn't, as quoted from Wikipedia:User_page#How_do_I_delete_my_user_subpages: "Pages which have formerly been in a different namespace and moved to a subpage of the user namespace may not be deleted in this way. These must be listed at Votes for deletion." In many cases this is a formality, but it is useful for more contentious pages in case anyone has objections. In this case no one did. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 04:54, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Makes sense. Ah there's the Vfd... having that link makes everything clear. Thanks. - Pioneer-12 04:56, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hi, "roomie". I think the reason for that rule (about not speeding moved pages) is that if it were allowed, you could take an article you didn't like, move it to a subpage of yours, and then ask for it to be speedied. Especially if you blanked the content. In fact, a user recently tricked an administrator this way; he didn't check the history but tried to delete the article—only to be stopped by the compression bug since the article was so old. Regarding your comment that the First Amendment "freedom of opinion"/"freedom of expression" should apply, I disagree. The First Amendment states: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press..." It does not prohibit state governments from making such laws, it does not prohibit schools from barring offensive clothing, and it does not force web sites run by private organizations to post all text that anyone desires. Wikipedia is quite liberal, but it is not constitutionally mandated to do so. Try telling CNN.com that they are violating your First Amendment rights by not posting a story or idea of yours. I don't intend to sound patronizing or harsh, just wanted to clarify—it bothers me when people take advantage of Wikipedia's openness and demand more, as it is their right.— Knowledge Seeker দ 05:12, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Organizations always have the right to set certain rules of conduct. However, these rights are not absolute. For example, an organization cannot, under current law, deny entrance to people based on the color of their skin. Now, most likely Wikipedia COULD censor personal pages if it choose to, but it would be highly hypocritical to do so. If Wikipedia advocates censorship / suppression of opinion then I advocate taking the GFDL content, building a counter project based on honest values and openness, and blowing Wikipedia to hell. - Pioneer-12 05:25, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

p.s. I think Wikipedia as a whole does not advocate censorship. The NPOV policy, for example, is nost impressive. So I have no plans to blow Wikipedia to hell.

Well, the only reason I commented was to object to the notion that Wikipedia was obligated to allow something as mandated by the First Amendment. I actually don't think that it would be hypocritical to censor pages (actually, there are limits to what can go on user pages—there's one (and subpages) we're discussing on AN that will likely be deleted soon); in fact, I think it's a bonus that they even offer personal pages. However, as this is all hypothetical, I should probably stop talking now. =) — Knowledge Seeker দ 05:52, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wikilocal

Hi there! In responding to Kappa's talk page I found your comments about a 'LocalWiki' project. I think this is a very good idea, and would be happy to lend my support to creating it. Radiant_* 07:51, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

A Ford or a Chevy - CHOOSE NOW!

I absolutely agree! Nader for life! You know, I bet I'm the only registered Green in Arizona (yuck). Your comment made me happy; I couldn't in good conscience register and vote Democrat, but I am getting tired of others dismissing me as some young idealist who'll "come around" after a while. Not only IRV is needed, but also abolition of the electoral college. How is it that Clinton in '92 failed to get even half of the popular vote and Perot got 20%, and yet Clinton gets 70% of the electoral college vote and Perot gets 0? The electoral college and popular vote almost never correspond, and in some cases (2000!), even the winners don't correspond. It only serves to distort the will of the people and exclude third-parties and independents. As you can see I get worked up about this, so thanks for caring. (I'd been searching around for a good quote when I found that in the book I'm reading, Thompson's Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail of '72, hilarious and insightful). --Dmcdevit 22:40, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Pandeism vfd

You, sir, are my hero. -- 8^D BDAbramson^gab 16:20, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

• I think it's about right. Problem is, the meaning of pandeism has evolved since then, and the modern meaning (although only used by a handful of people, as indicated by the low google count) is the one the vfd'ers won't accept. The key difference between Toland's use and Higgins' use seems not to be with the theism vs. deism, but with Toland using Pan- to mean all and -theism to mean God, while Higgins flips it and uses Pan- to refer to this family of gods, and deism as a sort of tag on the end to let you know it's an "ism". Now I wish I'd said exactly that in the article! -- 8^D BDAbramson^gab 16:42, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

Good edit

Hi Pioneer, I liked your edit to Wikipedia:No original research: it's an important point and you expressed it very clearly. Best, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:55, May 1, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! - Pioneer-12 19:26, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Blunders resurrected

Hi, Pioneer. I have been away for nearly two weeks due to a bad back. Congrats on the efforts on the blunders page. Sorry I haven't been able to help. Things still look iffy on the Vfd page. I added a bit on the Ford Edsel, which got publicity in its time comparable to the New Coke. --Blainster 05:14, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Goddess of Democracy

Well, "rant" may have been a poor choice of words, but I still find the whole thing irrelevant. Adam Bishop 04:23, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

*Shrugs* One can't please everybody. I do think it's ironic how people don't appreciate a commentary about appreciating freedom.

- Pioneer-12 04:29, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

== Question on VfD policy ==

Hi, I just asked Adraeus this, but haven't heard back from him yet: Isn't there some policy on discounting votes cast before a complete rewrite? The Pandeism article was rewritten as of 13:28, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC). By my count, there have been 8 votes to Delete and 9 votes to Keep since then (including votes cast before that date and later reaffirmed). Holistically, there have been 20 votes to Delete (12 cast before the rewrite) and 11 to Keep (2 cast before the rewrite). -- BDAbramson ^thimk 04:50, 2005 May 3 (UTC)

• Well, thanks for the info. On that note, I'm off for the next eight hours or so. Cheers. -- BDAbramson ^thimk 05:21, 2005 May 3 (UTC)

Intellectual Property

• • Ah, you've caught me up well past my bedtime. Well, since I'm up... frankly, I don't know how to answer your question, because no GFDL or Creative Commons type license has yet been challenged in court, so no one yet knows what effect they would really be given as to anything posted on this site. In theory, I could write a tract of text and post it on the internet (including on Wikipedia) under any "license" you can imagine, or even run around in the streets handing out free copies and declaring that it's in the public domain, and then turn around and sue the first person who copies it. There is a strong presumption of copyright for all original work under American law, and even if you license your work to someone else, it springs back to you after 35 years (or to your heirs if you die before the renewal period). Furthermore, short of contractually licensing your work in exchange for something received in return, no "gift" of your work to the public domain (or for others to use under any kind of license) can be enforced. I'm sure the people who came up with GFDL had good legal advice - it's well written and covers all the bases - it just might be lacking in any legal effect, and we won't know until a judge bangs a gavel on it. However, if you want to be sure that a particular piece of work on your part is, in fact copyrighted, a © will do it. -- BDAbramson ^thimk 07:03, 2005 May 3 (UTC)

Nader

I absolutely agree with you. In fact, I'm already on the OpenDebates email newsletter even. I'm inclined to believe the system would be better if there weren't any parties at all, and we all just voted for whoever's best, not voting based on some kind of strategy. I remember during the last Democratic primaries I supported Kucinich and Al Sharpton. So many times people who had essentially the same views as me were baffled that I didn't support Kerry or even Dean because they were the only "electable" ones. But her's the thing: if voters en masse decide not to vote for a candidate because that candidate can't win, then they have just fulfilled their own prophecy. There was a little-known poll done on the eve of the 2004 election that still makes me frustrated with the voters in general. It went somethng like this (paraphrasing): If Nader had the same chance of winning as either of the major candidates, would you vote for him? And 30% said yes, they would. If only they had, then maybe we wouldn't still be stuck in the same two-party, no-change mess we are now. Political parties exist only for self-preservation, not ideals, and I wish the so many party sheep would see that, just as Washington did. Some day, maybe... (when the system collapses in on itself) --Dmcdevit 22:33, 3 May 2005 (UTC) (Geez, I'm depressing)

Blunders VfD

Yep, that would be my opinion. --Merovingian (t) (c) 00:35, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Keep. --Merovingian (t) (c) 17:50, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

The reason I didn't vote was twofold: first, the vote is a complete mess, having turned around halfway (these things almost never get consensus then, so there's no need for me to add more to it), and second, I commented only on the talk page to say the article was (and still is) duplicating the lists in flop. Obviously such lists are already in the encyclopedia, so it's a bit pointless to go vote on a separate article on blunders (whatever the subtle difference between a flop and a blunder may be). I hope you realize by now, incidentally, that Wikipedia has no sense of humor. Starting it off as "List of the Great Boners of all time" was, shall we say, not very prudent. :-) JRM · Talk 20:03, 2005 May 5 (UTC)

I'm everywhere. :-) And shiny metal derrières or not, we're still a tad more serious than creating articles with titles based on comic book jokes. "I think my main mistake was expecting a higher level of maturity, open-mindedness, and understanding on Wikipedia then exists." No, your main mistake was assuming a greater amount of patience than exists. Mind you, you would have gotten away with this easily in the early days; someone would have just moved the page at a convenient time, we'd all have a good laugh, drinks all around. These days everything you create that smacks of dubiousness is tagged for VfD, because there are many more eyeballs around, and people have less time to give every entry its due. Wikipedia has become more curt and businesslike as it has grown, for good or for bad.
Finally, the flop vs. blunder discussion I haven't seen, possibly because I didn't wade through the whole VfD to find out. The comment you added to the talk page clears things up ("every blunder is a flop, not all flops are blunders") and the list has criteria, so it seems to be on its way. JRM · Talk 20:55, 2005 May 5 (UTC)

Re:

Loved the questions, thanks! My reply is here.

Cheers!

Sam Spade 17:59, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

If I've assumed correctly

There is no spork, either. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 00:41, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Copyright

Ah, that's the beauty of copyright - all you have to do is append the symbol, and boom!, you have the presumption of the law on your side (that will over-ride any considerations based on where you post things as well). Technically you don't even need the symbol, but it operates to notify others that they can't copy your work, so that saves you from having to prove that they were not mistaken. Bear in mind, of course, that even copyrighted work is subject to fair use, so what you write can be quoted in part, so long as the quote is attributed. But that would apply to something you published in a book as well. -- BDAbramson ^thimk 22:32, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

Hi, Pioneer-12, BD. Pardon my butting in to the conversation. :)

I was just wondering, what specific aims are you hoping to achieve with the copyright notice on your user page? Are you concerned that someone will edit your comments and misrepresent you, or is there something else? --TenOfAllTrades (talk/contrib) 00:41, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

• In reality, it's kind of a mixed bag. A copyright logo will secure your rights, but what exactly will you do if someone does cut, splice, and mangle your words? Sue them? It's hard enough to track down people you only know via an internet site (who may not even be in the U.S.). -- BDAbramson ^thimk 02:21, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, any edits, including to non-article pages, are released under the GFDL. --SPUI (talk) 02:48, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:User page#Ownership and editing of pages in the user space - "Contributions must be licensed under the GFDL, just as articles are." --SPUI (talk) 02:54, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's just wrong. It's totally illogical. So that means anyone go around to talk pages and edit *your* comments to whatever they feel like and pretend that you said them. It just makes no sense.

I object. I refuse. I deny. I shall not, will not GFDL my comments. And I've got copyright law on my side. Anyone who disagrees can eat a law book.

Now if you want to get technical, you could say that people have author's rights to their comments, but the document they add them to has GFDL attributes (version history and such). I'll go for that, as long as my rights are protected. My words are my own. And no one, no matter what the license says, can come in and magically claim control of my words and thoughts against my will.

- Pioneer-12 04:04, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Whoa...I don't think anyone wants to try to put words in your mouth. Although the GFDL doesn't provide you with a lot of formal protection there, Wikipedia policy certainly does. It is considered extremely bad form for editors to modify user pages that are not their own, and even worse to modify other editors' signed comments. Any editor who did such a thing would be censured, usually swiftly, and probably quite sharply. Their changes can and would be reverted--you're even welcome to do so yourself. Editors who ignore policy on this point can and will be blocked or banned from Wikipedia.

With respect to editors misrepresenting what you've said, it's very straightforward to check the edit history of a page to verify that the signed comments haven't been created or altered by any but their owner. In practice, I have seen very few inappropriate edits to signed user comments. When they do take place, they're usually the work of (almost immediately blocked) vandals or technical hiccups in the database.

I guess what I'm saying is that even though all the pages on Wikipedia are GFDL licensed, contributors are bound by further restrictions on how and what they may edit. There are terms and conditions by which editors of Wikipedia must abide.

It would help if you could outline some specific concerns that you have about how your words might be misused or altered; perhaps its possible to set your mind at ease without trying to unlicense your contributions...? --TenOfAllTrades (talk/contrib) 04:42, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I think what I'm doing is making explicit what is the fundamental law. People automatically own their creative works unless they willfully give them away. I am very happy to give away my contributions to the encyclopedia and to any collaborative documents on Wikimedia. But my signed comments are my own, under both U.S. and international law, and no license can change that. Licenses can set alot of restrictions, but they can't break the law. The whole idea of applying the GFDL to talk pages is idiotic anyway.

- Pioneer-12 05:57, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The idea is that by posting them here, you are licensing them under the GFDL. They remain your "property" in that others must credit you as the GFDL requires. --SPUI (talk) 07:58, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

To elaborate a bit further on what SPUI has written, you do indeed retain copyright on all of the text that you add to Wikipedia. You may further license that text however you see fit, or not at all. However, in contributing it to Wikipedia, you are consenting to license the material under the GFDL as well. It says so right under the edit box. Per BDAbramson's concerns about a lack of consideration being exchanged, it can be argued that Wikipedia is providing a venue in which to publish your remarks. The value of the server space and bandwidth which Wikipedia gives you, though small, is certainly non-zero. Even in the absence of consideration, the clear conditions regarding GFDL licensing that appear under the edit window would likely lend Wikipedia (and subsequent users of the apparently GFDL-licensed material) a defence based on promissory estoppel.

Of course, I am not a lawyer, and the above should not be construed as legal advice.

I'm still not entirely clear on the specific nature of your concerns, though. Are you worried that you will be misquoted outside of Wikipedia, or that your remarks will be misrepresented on this site? It may not even be necessary to drag copyright and licensing issues into the matter. --TenOfAllTrades (talk/contrib) 09:37, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I am worried about being misquoted, and also about someone reproducing or modifying my signed comments without my authorization. (If someone wants to quote me that's fine; I love fair use.)

The GFDL can't override my copyright if I don't agree to it. You seem to be saying basically the same thing with "you do indeed retain copyright on all of the text that you add to Wikipedia". So it's just a matter of what the licensing says people can do with my text (and your text). If someone takes the wiki encyclopedia content that I've added and reproduces it and makes money off it, more power to them, more power to the encyclopedia. But if someone wants to publish a collection of original writings that I've posted in the Wikipedia talk space and try to make money of it, that's not gonna fly. They can claim GFDL, but I'll take them to court to protect what's mine. Who will win? We don't know--as BDAbramson said above, the law hasn't officially ruled on this issue--but I'm betting that they'll rule in favor of the Author(s), and the copyright notice on my user page is there to help ensure that that happens.

- Pioneer-12 13:26, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

You have agreed to the GFDL

Open an edit page. Look down.

• All contributions to Wikipedia are released under the GNU Free Documentation License (see Project:Copyrights for details).

Now, if you can read Project:Copyrights and tell me that it says that your talk page comments are excluded from the GFDL, I'll side with you. But it doesn't. All your contributions have been released under the GFDL, assuming they were yours to release, upon your implicit agreement upon their submission. If your contents were NOT allowed to be licensed under the GFDL you'd be in violation of our copyright policies and you'd need to be blocked. As a matter of fact, I'd ask that you please remove that copyright notice from your userpage posthaste, lest you be blocked for gross license violations. -Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 14:42, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

It says at the bottom of the edit screen that I'm looking at right now: "All contributions to Wikipedia are released under the GNU Free Documentation License (see Project:Copyrights for details)". By hitting "Save page" you agreed to license your contributions to Wikipedia -- regardless of name space -- under that license. Under the terms of the license you've set forth on your user page, it is illegal for Wikimedia to publish your contributions outside of article space. Of course, by submitting them you gave them an implicit license to publish them (license implied by author's conduct). So what you've really done is made contradictory licensing statements. I would imagine that a court, when faced with such incomprehensible behavior, would rule in favor of whoever you are trying to confuse. But that's just my impression as a former law student -- I obviously know nothing about the law. Kelly Martin 14:34, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

Right, and since he already has demonstrated that he understands that contributions are released under the GFDL by the site's submission agreement, that's another strike against his case. Seriously, if you have read the submission agreement for a site, you don't get to say "I'm submitting this material, except the submission agreement does not apply". If you do, it's either a) if it's your own content then your submission, particularly since you've invoked the agreement, is implicitly under the rules of the agreement whether you say it is or not, or b) if it's someone else's copyrighted content, the agreement doesn't apply and you're doing something illegal. -Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 14:47, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

And from another perspective: People aren't going to mangle your comments! You're being a little paranoid here. We're not out to get you. And if someone does mangle your comments to misrepresent you, and that is found out, they will lose all the credibility that they may or may not have had, and may additionally be committing slander. Use that to deal with people mangling your comments; don't invoke copyright laws. -Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 14:59, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

"All contributions to Wikipedia are released under the GNU Free Documentation License". But is a talk page Wikipedia? I don't think it is. It's part of the foundation servers, but it's not Wikipedia. It's treated fundamentally different. And even trying to apply the GFDL to it seems ridiculous.

As it is now, the statement I made changes nothing. All my talk contributions are meant to follow policy.... but, at the same time, all creative endeavors are automatically copyright by the authors. I am trying to make this fact clear to avoid trouble down the road. (And trust me, there will be trouble from alot more people then me if people start stretching the GFDL regarding talk pages. No one's tried exploiting the talk pages yet, but it's a ticking time bomb.) I have the notice, not just for me, but for every talk poster who's comments are potentially open to exploitation against their will. It comes down to this: Wikipedia pages are one thing; talk pages are something else. Just because I know my rights doesn't mean that you have to give me a hard time about it. Now, before we go any further, I want to know who's idea it was to try to apply the GFDL on talk pages. What were they thinking? What's the point? It seems totally counterproductive to me and just a BAD idea, but it is necessary to hear what reasoning there was. Perhaps there was no good reason and it just happened because people didn't know any better. Lets find out. I think it's time to take this discussion to the village pump.

And lets try to be polite and remember that everyone here has good intentions. We can figure this out peacefully.

- Pioneer-12 15:32, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

← moving back to left margin ← Okay; with respect to (mis)quotation, the GFDL doesn't hurt you. If someone edits your remarks and republishes them, they have to say that the text has been modified from its original form. (Heck, the GFDL requires that complete and accurate authorship information be maintained.) If someone maliciously alters your words and misrepresents them as your own, then the fact that the text is GFDL licensed doesn't affect your legal right to redress. If they try to do it here on Wikipedia, the admins will...I believe the correct term is "lay the smack down on them".

With respect to republication of your contributions to Wikipedia's talk space, I would first ask from a practical standpoint—is there really anything in the Talk and User pages that you expect someone would want to sell? For most Wikipedians, the Talk pages are just discussion about article or policy content.

If you're planning on posting a lot of personal poetry, original writing, a new screenplay, or what have you in your User space, you might want to consider carefully. For one thing, the Wikipedia servers are here for encyclopedia building; they're not meant as personal web hosting. For another, there's still the notice that shows up every time you edit a page, informing you that your contributions are released under GFDL. If you'd like to refer to personal writings from User or Talk spaces without licensing the contents under GFDL, I'd suggest posting them using a free hosting service somewhere and linking them from Wikipedia.

Does that help? I hope it doesn't seem like I trying to pick on you; I just don't want to see an avoidable legal mess arise a few years down the road. --TenOfAllTrades (talk/contrib) 15:49, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

You couldn't pick on me if you tried. You could just try to hassle me. The problem is that I post alot of things which amount to mini essays, and they are mine first, and Wikipedia's second. They are appropriate here, but at the same time I may wish to reproduce them elsewhere if I choose to.... and I don't want to be handcuffed by the GFDL. It seems I will have to take additional steps to ensure that there is no chance of me being robbed of my rights. I guess I must make sure that any significant posts to talk pages are published elsewhere online and merely quoted here.

Trying to push the GFDL onto talk pages ultimately stifles contributions. Will someone try to steal my writings from me? The mailing lists don't have that; the IRC channels don't have that; no other forums have that. Thus it is natural to believe that the talk pages do not by nature have that... and should not have that. Lets get rid of the claim now, before a court tosses it out.

- Pioneer-12 16:08, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Brandenn Bremmer

Thanks for the kind comment Pioneer! Not that I expect what I wrote to make any difference to the vote. ;-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:25, May 12, 2005 (UTC)