Talk:Boxer Rebellion

Peaceful Chinese Intention?

Declaring war and surrounding a diplomatic quarter clearly constitutes as an act of war by every possible measure. How could it possibly be based upon a peaceful intention? --YKatakura (talk) 22:49, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Prince Ronglu and Prince Qing invited the foriegners to take shelter inside the zongli yamen but the foreigners were paranoid and refused, instead, they shot at all chinese that passed by the legations, which led to them being blockaded. Its natural that a government would be concerned about keeping the trigger happy marines under control before they shot even more people and cause more resentment, which would have led to more support for the Boxers.Дунгане (talk) 20:49, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Whether it is "natural" or not is your opinion. Can you actually provide any verifiable source stating that the Chinese government tried to actively fight against the boxers to stop their belligerency for the purpose of respecting the obvious diplomatic protocol i.e. non-violation of diplomatic missions? Can you prove, against nearly every serious historian, that the Imperial Chinese Army surrounded to protect the diplomatic quarter from the boxers? What some Princes did personally does not automatically warrant any official policy of the government. --YKatakura (talk) 15:19, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

You saying "surrounding a diplomatic quarter clearly constitutes.... war... based on peaceful intention" is equally your own personal opinion, and per sources already in the article, we already know that forces (the Boxers and Kansu Braves) were already attacking the foreigners in the legations, they received no orders from the government to proceed in such an attack. These two sources say Prince Qing sent his bannermen to protect the foreigners and invited them to the zongli yamen, even sending his own bannermen to attack the boxers and kansu braves.[1][2]ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 20:28, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Your references not withstanding, YKatakura's statement that "surrounding a diplomatic quarter clearly constitutes as an act of war" is not a matter of opinion. It was already a longstanding diplomatic and political agreement, well before the events being discussed here. Such agreements were on paper as early as 1709. China, in the person of the Empress Dowager Cixi, had already agreed to the Vienna Convention previous to 1900, most likely on the very day of her ascension. I would suggest a refresher in international political history before further errors are presented in rebuttal to members in this discussion.--ADWNSW (talk) 04:24, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

The diplomatic quarter was "surrounded" by imperial army forces to clear out Boxer insurgents hiding in the legations area, and "diplomatic protocol", had been violated numerous times by foreign powers before any such actions in the legations took place, including the murder of a Chinese civilian unconnected to the Boxers by German Baron von Ketteler, the illegal invasion of chinese territory without notification of the chinese government by foreign forces- the Seymour expedition was clearly without chinese authorization.

Thats not even mentioning the Battle of Dagu Forts (1900), which even the american commander refused to participate in becaues it was an illegal act of war against China without any such declaration.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 17:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

This is irrelevant to my point. Please stay within the immediate topic. Thank you.--ADWNSW (talk) 19:38, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

"Abundance of Rain" is NOT a WP:Reliable source

Its a Book written by an author with zero academic credentials, as a source, despite the fact that the book claims war crimes are the result of a "generational sin pattern", and that christianity is the one true religion and everything else is essentially lies.

the only thing about him when i googled him that stated his credentials were- Esther C. Stanley is a published author. A published credit of Esther C. Stanley is Abundance of Rain.

Absolutely NO Phd, degrees, MB, or anything in General history at all, let along chinese history.

Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29- "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media—whether books"

Wikipedia:SPS#Self-published_sources

Talk:Boxer_Rebellion#According_to_you_then.2C_everything_is_unprovable

Abundance of Rain is NOT a reliable source. A book that says- "We can see in chinese history how broken covenants and violations of god's laws, judgements, and bitter root expectations have sown curses and reaped violence, revenge, and murder" does NOT qualify as a reliable source.

"it was her own sin and generational judgements and bitter root expectations which barred her from experiencing the blessing and love of god"

Mr. Stanley is a christian, and writes from a christian POV. Now, being a christian is not an impediment to reliability, but having no academic credentials and writing from a religious christian POV is. The aim of his book is to glorify christianity and claim all other religions are false. He has no academic credentials whatsover, let alone credentials in China or history.

I might as well quote "lord of the rings" or "harry potter", and claim wizards really exist here on wikipedia.

Now, suppose I give John Smith some leeway, and allow that Esther C. Stanley, despite the fact that his entire book is about how christianity is the one true religion and all non christians are damned to torture and suffering, and claims atrocities are the result of a "generational sin pattern" that he did use some citations, like Forsychth and "The boxer rising" (not neutral by the way, since they were made by the American Bible Society), that did state how many Chinese christians were murdered. However, at the last sentence regarding rape , torture, and mutilation, he provides no source!-[3]ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 23:17, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Confirmed at the noticeboard- Abundance of Rain is unreliable

at the noticeboard its been confirm that "abundance of rain" is an unreliable sourceΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 13:49, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Atrocities section

This needs some expanding on what Chinese/Boxers did. There's one line on this and then the rest is devoted to the conduct of Alliance troops. This is not neutral. John Smith's (talk) 10:19, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Real Life isn't neutral. The Allies were the ones who were out of their home countries, and invading another country which never attacked them in all their history. When we write an article on a terrorist attack or a bank robbery here on Wikipedia, we don't pretend that we have to give equal time to the perpetrator and find some dirt on the victims, we report the facts, which is neutral- the perpetrator committed the XXX atrocity and the victim is the victim. We don't invent atrocities by the victim to make it appear neutral.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 15:57, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Dr. Dillon stated that Chinese women committed suicide to avoid rape, and said that he witnessed corpses of raped and bayoneted women by alliance troops.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 16:20, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Erm, sorry, but we know that the Chinese carried out atrocities. Otherwise, what is the section "Massacre of missionaries and Chinese Christians" about? Was this imagined atrocities? Most of the atrocities section is commentary on the Alliance forces' actions. Are you trying to tell me that there is no commentary on what Chinese did or that no atrocities were committed? John Smith's (talk) 20:04, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

so you, Mr. Smith, is complaining about the article being "not neutral", yet there is already an entire section (to which I added information about Boxers roasting Christians alive by the way), that already states chinese atrocities, yet you complain chinese atrocities are not represented well enough. Whats your logic here? That there isn't "enough" atrocities?

Mr. Smith, the article's sections are in chronological order. Do you know what that means? That means, the sections are placed in the sequence that they happened, not "whereever I want to put it". the reason why only western atrocities are in the atrocities section is because it itself is under the Aftermath section, AFTER the western forces finally seized beijing and ended the war.

The reason "Massacre of missionaries and Chinese Christians" is NOT in the atrocities section, is because they happened earlier, BEFORE the siege even began, which is when most chinese atrocities occured.

Boxer_Rebellion#Aftermath

The fact is- western atrocities did occuer AFTER the war was finished, which is why its in the Aftermath section.

Therefore, the majority of Chinese atrocities ARE described in the article, in the right section-"Massacre of missionaries and Chinese Christians", placed before sections on the siege.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 21:50, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

And I was the one who added the fact that Boxers burned Chinese christians in that section, this was my citation- [4]ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 22:01, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Then I think the organisation of the article is poor. I would have a single section (stand-alone section, not a sub-section) on all atrocities committed by all parties during the rebellion. Separate it from the "aftermath". If not, "atrocities" needs to be changed to "Alliance forces atrocities" or something similar to flag up that it is just talking about Alliance atrocities.

And please don't call me "Mr Smith". Call me John or use my full user name, thanks. John Smith's (talk) 14:46, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Done.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 16:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

That's better. However, I think that we need to discuss whether a joint section on atrocities is desirable. Furthermore, in talking about atrocities against Christians, are we forgetting ordinary Chinese who were killed by other Chinese, either because they were suspected of being foreign agents/were "too close" to foreigners, or simply to settle old scores? You see this is why I'm reluctant to leave the page layout as it is. John Smith's (talk) 16:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

"Western"

I don't think this term should be used, unless it's in a citation. It's lazy and vague. "Western" can cover a vast arrange of countries not involved in the conflict. I would use "Alliance" to refer to troops, "foreign" or state specific nationalities. John Smith's (talk) 10:25, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Then the tolstoy one stays since his citation specificlly mentioned westerners.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 16:16, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

"he praised the Chinese for their heroic patience. When he learned about the "orgy of murder, raping, and looting" committed by the Western powers in quelling the Boxer rebellion, he raged against the brutality of the Christians"ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 16:18, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Did you read my comment? I said "I don't think this term should be used, unless it's in a citation". John Smith's (talk) 20:08, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Conflicting attitudes within the Imperial Court section

I cannot see how the citation at the end of the first paragraph supports all of that text. Page 88 of the book does not seem to refer to anything discussed in that paragraph. John Smith's (talk) 10:31, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Scroll down to page 89 and 90 to see the rest of the text.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 15:52, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

You should not have a single citation per paragraph. You need to interspace them a bit more and refer to all the relevant pages. John Smith's (talk) 20:11, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Another source which said alliance forces raped but chinese did not

"Lost souls"

An eight-nation allied relief force, including a British contingent, made its way from the coast, with much bickering between the rival commanders. When it lifted the siege on August 14, it proceeded to loot, kill and rape with as much ferocity as the Boxers had shown (with the difference that the Boxers looted and killed, but did not rape).ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 16:06, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

A fact is a fact. When someone commits a crime, and its notable, we write it out clearly. We don't try to make up crimes that the victim committed in order to make the article "neutral".ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 16:06, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

• You should note the following reference, p. 148, which states that Chinese Christians were killed, mutilated, and raped by the Boxers. http://books.google.com/books?id=o80WueMVIeQC&pg=PA148&dq=rape+boxer+rebellion&hl=en&ei=cqC1TZnJCdDUgAeTpL3GCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=rape%20boxer%20rebellion&f=false

To me your insistence that Chinese did not rape women is unprovable. Nobody witnessed the death of most of those killed by the Boxers. We don't know whether or not the Boxers raped women, including Western women. We don't know of any women who survived to allege that the Boxers or Chinese soldiers raped them. That may be because they were all killed. To insist that the Boxers did not rape women is to insist on the unknowable.

There were plenty of atrocities on both sides. The Boxers beheaded children. I don't know of any source that says the Western or Japanese soldiers did. Therefore, should we put a line in the article saying that the Boxers beheaded children, but there were no reports of Western soldiers beheading children?

Your objective is, of course, to portray the Boxers and the Chinese government in the most favorable light possible and to paint the sins of the West in the darkest colors. That's not NPOV. Smallchief (talk) 16:47, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

According to you then, everything is unprovable

First of all, the majority of reference I used were from books written by proffessors with PHD in the area (i checked the authors of the books for credentials), like Diana Preston who has degress in history, and she the author of one source i quoted for the western committed rapes. this book "abundance of Rain" does not appear to have been written by someone with a PHD or degree, but by a christian evangelical bent on portraying christianity as the one true religion and everything else as lies

Robert R. Mathisen, the author of " Critical issues in American religious history", which i gave as one of the cites that Chinese did not rape, has full academic credentials-

(M.A. Ball State University) is Professor of History and Political Science at Corban College, Oregon

Luella Miner remarked that for all the Boxer atrocities there had been no incident of Chinese rape

And as for westerners killing children-

"An American correspondent was appalled when he saw a Russian soldier crush the skull of a four-year-old Chinese boy for no reason, and Cossacks sometimes killed children just as casually."

"At least one Western observer reported witnessing Cossacks killing Chinese children for no apparent reason"

Now as for unprovable- as per policy, Wikipedia is based on verifiable sources, not the truth. If everyone knows the sky is blue, but all academics wrote the sky is red in their books and articles, then we have to write the sky is red in wikipedia, not our own observation.

Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth Wikipedia:Verifiability

Unprovability extends to real life itself. How do you know we aren't locked up in some kind of Matrix like machine where all reality is a lie like the The Matrix (franchise)? I'm not bringing this up as a red herring or to hijack off topic, but in reality you can't prove anything is real or really happened, thats why lawyers use the phrase "beyond all reasonable doubt" that my client is innocent, not "my client is definetly innocent".

Therefore, according to sources I presented (with authors that have academic credentials in the form of degrees, the concenses is that western forces committed rapes and killing, and the boxers committed killings but the sources e xplicitly mention the absence of rape.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 19:20, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

• • Wrong. You didn't present "sources." You presented a source. Your academic source quoted a missionary. Luella Miner, who said there was no rape by Boxers. Your academic source didn't opine whether Ms. Miner was accurate in her statement or not. You've based your whole theory on a one-sentence statement from a missionary who was in the Legations during the siege and had no idea what was going on outside the walls of Beijing. Flimsy. Misleading. Smallchief (talk) 20:05, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

you're the one whose wrong. I also provided a guardian article which explicitly says europeans raped and chinese did not

John gittings, the author of the article, has the proper credentials to be used as a cite-"John Gittings worked for many years as the Guardian's foreign leader-writer and China specialist. He has also written extensively on cold war politics and is a research associate at SOAS Centre for Chinese Studies."ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 21:10, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Even if there were no citations for saying no Chinese rape occured, the fact is, I looked, and could not find any instances of Chinese rape, but I found tons of reliable sources saying western forces committed rape, the article would therefore contain information about westerners committing rape and not say anything about Chinese and rape since there are no reliable sources which says such events occurred. Then I doubt John would leave it like that, he would most likely have come into the talk page regardless and challenged the neutrality of the article, saying "how come it says westerners raped but chinese didn't, it isn't neutral". Then I would have to show him the Gittings article anyway, regardless of whether it was in the wiki article or not.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 21:10, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Tolstoy

Why are you unhappy with my edit to make it clear that he wasn't a witness? The text as you reverted it to says "He accused them of engaging in slaughter when he heard repoorts about the lootings, rapes, and murders, in what he saw as Christian brutality."

If he was a witness, why did he criticise what happened when he heard reports about them? Clearly the meaning is that he heard reports of what happened and criticised them - ergo he was not a witness. John Smith's (talk) 14:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Then why did you have to delete massive parts of what he heard and just replace it with "he was a witness"? what he heard reports of, the exact things he accused the troops of doing should stay.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 15:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Eh? I didn't replace it with "he was a witness". I made it more clear that he wasn't a witness but referred to the fact he was highly critical of what he heard happened. If he was not a witness then his comments should not be given undue weight.

Whilst I am not suggesting everything regarding Tolstoy be removed, if he was not there and he is not bringing anything new regarding facts to the table, what is the point of referring to him? He is in purely because he is a notable historical figure passing comment. I think that is a reason for having him in, but not a good reason for saying much more than the fact he was critical of what happened (with clarification that he was not a witness). If the article already reports rape, murder and looting committed by Alliance troops, there is no need to repeat that when discussing Tolstoy's reaction. John Smith's (talk) 16:43, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to reduce the Tolstoy reference per my last edit on that, unless I hear a good reason to play down the fact he wasn't a witness. John Smith's (talk) 10:04, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Lead section

This is much too long - I would cut this down by at least a paragraph. A large amount of the text should be moved into the main body of the article or deleted if it repeats what is said later in too much detail. Things like the Twain quote and references to Guizi are prime candidates to be moved. John Smith's (talk) 14:49, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Done.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 16:02, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it's still too long. I think it's trying to cram information in there that we don't need. Let CWH have a stab at it. John Smith's (talk) 16:25, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

The lead section now reads like a straight copy from standard Chinese high school text book, all these anti-imperialism rant. Arilang ^talk 15:21, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Could you be more specific about which words and phrases you consider "rant[ing]"? Quigley (talk) 22:15, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Correction to the massive errors in Arilang1234's comment, "The lead section now looks like it was copied straight from a standard Chinese high school text book, all of this anti-imperialism ranting.

quite strange that arilang1234 claimed I was speaking pidgin english and I couldn't write proper english when he can't get one sentence without major grammar/spelling errors.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 22:30, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

anyone interested in seeing Arilang1234's history with this article- with what he added, calling manchus "Barbarians", and claiming boxers were "anti-civilization and anti-humanity evil doing.Boxer members ...The Boxers were complete salvages and barbarians,were stupid to the extreme", can just take a look at the place where I stored links to his comments- User:ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ/edits.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 22:32, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

One might also wonder why he thinks he should have the credentials to criticize my english and insult me, when his english is riddled with errors.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 22:32, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Dr. Sun yatsen also said the Boxers were anti western heroes, and praised them as courageous. I didn't know Dr. Sun wrote high school textbooks for the CCP.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 22:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

The Kuomintang was as anti imperialist as the CCP. the KMT seized British concessions in Hankou with military force, accused Britain of "imperialism" in tibet during the Sino-Tibetan War, Bai Chongxi, a prominent KMT member, lashed out at British imperialists in Tibet, in Guangxi, the KMT attacked foreign missionaires and chinese christians, and all foreigners, in vietnam, the KMT backed up the anti French Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang with weapons encouraging them to attack the french, and KMT hakka general Zhang Fakui declared his intention to liberate indo china from "french imperialism". the KMT accused the american CIA of plotting a coup with Sun Liren.

In short, anti imperialims is not the exlcusive domain of the CCP or mainland china,ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 22:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. Due and undue weight

If we read Marxism, Leninism and anti-imperialism, we know that people who advocate "Anti-imperialism" are mostly Marxists, and Marxist revolutionary theory is not mainstream political ideology in the year 2011. Marxism had been a popular ideology for a while during the 60s and 70s, especially the anti-Vietnam war era, see Black Panther Party . According to Due and undue weight, Marxism is "the views of tiny minorities".

My remark towards user ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ: editors should only discuss ways to improve this article on this talkpage, any discussion of Sun Yetsen's attitude towards the Boxers or whether Kuomintang is more "Anti-imperialism" than CCP is completely irrelevant. Any criticism of my grammar please use my talkpage. Arilang ^talk 01:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Funny that, the textbooks here in Australia that I was prescribed when I did my high school history course also gives the whole "anti-Imperialism" shebang. I guess that makes Australia a communist dicThis template is placed here to prevent triggering China's "firewall". - User:Benlisquaretatorship as well, right Arilang? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:19, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

In case you have forgotten, Australia was, and is, a socialist country, and many Aussie politicians, especially the Labor party politicians, are leftists, see Australian Labor Party#Early ideology. Arilang ^talk 04:46, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

In case Arilang1234 has forgotten, the Kuomintang was founded as a socialist party by Dr. Sun Yat-sen, who proudly admitted that he himself was socialist. Chiang Kai-shek also followed socialist ideology, promoting nationalization of industries and corporations.

and equating the Boxers with Marxists is laughable. The entire Boxer society was based on religious beliefs, see Chinese spirit possession, while Karl Marx criticized religion, saying Religion is the opium of the people. Also see Marxist–Leninist atheism, the entire doctrine of Marxist Leninism is the ultimate abolition of all religion

Religions is seen as a negative aspect of human society by Marxist Leninists, who pursued anti religious campaigns, such as the Cultural Revolution in China which involved the destruction of chinese religious practices which the Boxers folloed.- Marxism and religion

During the Cultural Revolution, mao and the communist party attacked religion. the boxers believed in spirits, gods, and were entirely based on religion. Arilang1234 is concocting highly queer and strange original research, WP:OR/Wikipedia:No original research and synthesis WP:SYNTHESIS, by suggesting that this article resembles a Chinese high school textbook and that the Boxers are supported by marxists.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 02:27, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

@Arilang:
>Australia
>socialist country
Jesus Christ, that post in itself pretty much has confirmed that you're someone who doesn't know what they're talking about, and yet is still screaming "Everyone chillax, I happen to be an expert in this topic". I'm going to find it quite difficult to take things seriously from now on if you maintain that kind of atmosphere. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 11:55, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

List of biased and WP:Weasel words of this article:

• (1)opposing foreign imperialism and Christianity.
• (2) with grievances ranging from opium traders, political invasion, economic manipulation, to missionary evangelism.
• (3)There existed growing concerns that missionaries and Chinese Christians could use this decline to their advantage, appropriating lands and property of unwilling Chinese peasants to give to the church.
• (4)In June 1900 in Beijing, Boxer fighters threatened foreigners

These are the biased statements I pick from the lead section, and there are many more of this biased statement throughout the entire article, and as a result, this article is biased and unbalanced. Arilang ^talk 04:29, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Mao Zedong praised the Taiping rebels in the Taiping Rebellion as fighting against the "feudal" Qing dynasty court. Yet i don't see Arilang1234 going all over the Taiping article and claiming that its propaganda, in fact, Arilang1234 did the opposite, trying to portray the taiping in a positive light- which is exactly what the communist propaganda department does- praise the Taiping rebels.

Arilang1234 linked us to "unsupported attributions

in other words, Arilang1234 is falsely claiming that what is written in the article doesn't match the source that it cites.

the source used backs up the information in the article- "at the vanguard of this imperialist invasio were the christian missionaries....these missionaries and some of their converts presumed upon the power and might of imperialism to seize peasants' lands and property for their churches and to intervene in lawsuits. no matter how perverse the demands of the missionaries might be, officials could do nothing....

another source used-there are two churches, the american protestatnt and the french catholic in pingyuan..... the christian converts rely on the power of the bishop to file falsified lawsuits

chinese bandits and criminals also converted to Catholic christianity, since they were giving immunity from their crimes by the western foreigners once they became christian, allowing them to continue their criminal activities without fear of prosecution from the Qing authorities. [5]

in short, the statements arilang1234 cited in the article portray chinese christians and foreigners in a much more positive light than what the sources say, if Arilang1234 is suggesting we are using weasel wording, then the only weasel wording thats going on, is the fact that the crimes of Chinese christians and foreigners, per the sources, aren't explained in even more detail, with every aspect of how they robbed chinese peasants of their land and how chinese "christians" were actually bandits who converted to avoid prosecution.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 06:20, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

and thats right, the article is too biased in favor of the foreign missionaries and bandits who converted to christianity, against the boxers- as I noted above, the sources showed how the foreign imperialists/missionaires/ bandits who became christians were exploiting the chinese peasants and seizing their land from them- it isn't explained in more detail in the article. The article actually cuts down too much on what the sources say about the imperialism and exploitation of chinese peasants.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 06:29, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Allow me to remind user ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ, editors are here to discuss on ways to maintain neutrality of the article per WP:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weight, if ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ wish to discuss on the subject of who were the real bandits, Boxers vs Chinese christians, he should open another thread. Arilang ^talk 07:31, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Arilang, it seems to me that you are moving the goal posts. Instead of making the ad hominem against the other editor and shopping for things to say, perhaps you can justify how you believe that there is a problem, without going all dramatic over all this and all that. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 12:01, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Benlisquare, for your information, it is every editors job to make sure that Wikipedia rules are to be observed and carried out during editing, whoever ignored Wikipedia rules should do editing on their personal blogs, only then they can do whatever they like do. Arilang ^talk 09:46, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

No, you're trying to twist things into the way you prefer it to be, by shopping for policy and then acting under the pretense and justification that you are doing everything for policy. Your first sentence gave me the impression of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and your final few lines reeked of shopping. You've already demonstrated that you're the type of person who likes to pretend to be expert (refer to >Australia is a socialist country above), and hence I'm doubtful that your input towards this article is genuinely and solely based on the assumption that you're doing "everything for the sake of Wikipedia policy" as you claim you have been doing, but rather for your own personal WP:IDONTLIKEIT stance. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 12:11, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Its very strange that Arilang1234 is suddenly so concerned about wikipedia policy, when he violates wikipedia policy all the time, concocting original research on marxist leninsim and attempting to link them to the boxers, by citing wikipedia articles which don't even back up his assertions, wikipedia articles are not RS and cannot be cited in other articles on wikipedia, and claiming australia is a socialist country based on his own original research when wikipedia says NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH, and enjoys putting personal insults into articles, claiming people are "salvages" (whatever that is), are "stupid", and that entire ethnic groups are "barbarians"

Its also strange that Arilang1234 likes to screech all the time about alleged "communist propaganda" in the boxer rebellion article (which is all sourced by western publications), but Arilang1234 himself inserted Mao Zedong/CCP's POV into the Taiping Rebellion article, Arilang1234 tried to make the taipings look like heros fighting against the "evil" manchu qing, we can see similar thinking in Mao Zedong who praised Taiping leader Hong Xiuquan for attacking the "feudal" Qing regime, and Hong and the Taiping leaders did exactly the same thing as Mao in the cultural revolution, he attacked confucianism and traditional chinese culture.

It seems that Arilang1234 is here to push an anti Chinese culture/Anti Qing dynasty POV on articles, using contradictory sources, anything that bashes Chinese civilization, the qing dynasty is fine with him in his agenda, such as praising the Taipings who destroyed chinese temples, pagodas, and attacked confucianism, Arilang1234 should start a blog where he can place all his original research rants onto since we don't permit such rants here.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 22:11, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

The issue raised by ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ about me using words such as "salvages" and "barbarians" had been fully discussed in 2010 here, admins had made decisions and I have complied with it, and surely it is irrelevant and distracting for ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ to bring it up again at this talkpage. Any further attempts by ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ to distract editors again will be reported as WP:Disruptive editing. Arilang ^talk 01:46, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Dungane, calm down a bit. Although it would be bad faith to accuse Arilang of trolling, but the same principle applies here - don't feed him. Just don't respond to his taunting, and it'll eventually die down. Until he starts to show that he will take the discussion seriously and actually bother to state his reasoning, rather than speaking policy this and that, I don't see how there is any benefit of having this go any further. It doesn't matter how many long lines of text you write, since I doubt that Arilang actually reads any of them; it's a waste of your time and effort since he's probably thinking WP:TLDR, and you're probably making him more active by feeding him. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:39, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Allow me to remind ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ and Benlisspuare again, all discussion on this talkpage should focus on improving this article while implementing WP rules, particularly the neutrality of the content. Editors who continuously ignoring WP rules on purpose should be topic banned permanently from editing. Arilang ^talk 07:32, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Allow me to remind Arilang1234, that marxism has nothing to do with the boxers nor with improving the article, yet Arilang1234 brought it up again, addition to bring up the straw man attack and claiming australia is "socialist", which has nothing to the with boxer rebellion.

arilang1234 should also be reminded that he was the first VIOLATE Seb az86556's terms in which ad hominen attacks should not be used, arilang1234 brought up china again and marxism in a classic straw man attack.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 20:59, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Broken/wrong citations

I've opened a general thread for this. (193.77.143.154, your observation on duplicated text was invaluable.)

Here's my latest one - A large number of Alliance victories was not due to their own military prowess, rather, it was due to rivalries between the Boxers and the Chinese Imperial army, and conflicting orders given to Chinese Generals by the court. The citation points to page 529 of the Elliot book, but I do not see where the text I have quoted above is supported. John Smith's (talk) 13:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC);

Good work. Keep on trying. A lot of us have tried to improve this article and slowly, slowly it's getting better -- although I would still rate some parts of it as unreliable, polemical, and biased. Smallchief (talk) 14:04, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

multiple times, several anti China Users loved to bring up the false claim that Chinese used "swords and sprears" against european machine guns and refused to modernize. repetiions about the artillery and other modern weapons Chinese forces acquired were made to disprove the point. Several users falsely claim that Japan modernized while china didn't, on several talk pages, sometimes even trying to use it to shove their anti China POV into articles.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 19:43, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

And no, User:CWH is the only person I would say who has made any good effort to improve the article, not "alot of people".ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 19:43, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I feel I must remove the following text.

The ease with which the Alliance was able to pass into Chinese territory uninhibited was not due to their own prowress

I cannot any such reference in the citation. It seems like original research to me. John Smith's (talk) 20:07, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

source- General Nie let the allies slip pass due to the conflicting orders page 18 of this-

• http://www.jhuapl.edu/ourwork/nsa/papers/China%20ReliefSm.pdf

The Empress Dowager’s government learned of Seymour’s departure and reacted with anger that the foreigners would dare send such a large troop contingent without permission. That same day, Prince Tuan replaced Prince Ching as president of the Tsungli Yamen. All along the line from Tientsin to Peking, Imperial troops were alerted, and the unruly Boxers went in search of vulnerable targets.

On the first day of the relief attempt, the armed trains traveled about twenty-five miles to Yangtsun, where General Nieh’s 4,000-strong detachment of Imperial troops was camped. Unsure how to reconcile conflicting orders coming from Peking, Nieh allowed Seymour’s trains to pass. The expedition went a few more miles and found the tracks heavily damaged. They spent the rest of the day repairing the line and moved out again the next morning. By sunset on 11 June, they had advanced all the way to Langfang, just forty miles from Peking, where they found Boxer militia destroying the rail lines. The Boxers attacked but were easily scattered, and Seymour’s laborers commenced to repair the damage done the next day, 12 June. Simultaneously, the admiral dispatched a reconnaissance party to assess the situation ahead. Ten miles farther on, near Anping, they found strong Boxer resistance and more destruction.

Its very clear that Ronglu's orders led to General Nie letting the foreigners slip right into Chinese territory without being stopped by the imperial army.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 20:33, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I am very concerned by this. You keep demonstrating a lack of understanding of Wikipedia's original research policy. The above source does not say or support the allegation that "The ease with which the Alliance was able to pass into Chinese territory uninhibited was not due to their own prowress". We might be able to agree that the sources highlight that there was confusion between different Chinese forces. But this does not mean that the only reason the Alliance had an easy time of it was the confusion. You are drawing your own conclusions from the text, which you should not be doing. John Smith's (talk) 09:59, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

On a separate note, who is Robert Leonhard, and why should we care what he has to say? John Smith's (talk) 10:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Credentials for mister Leonhard

The website is an edu website. It would not lie on Leonhard's credentials, unlike Chang and Halliday.

Robert R. Leonhard, Ph.D.

also from the same link on page 5- "LTC(R) Robert R. Leonhard, Ph.D., is on the Principal Professional Staff of The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory and a member of the Strategic Assessments Office of the National Security Analysis Department. He retired from a 24-year career in the Army after serving as an infantry officer and war planner and is a veteran of Operation Desert Storm. Dr. Leonhard is the author of The Art of Maneuver: Maneuver-Warfare Theory and AirLand Battle (1991), Fighting by Minutes: Time and the Art of War (1994), The Principles of War for the Information Age (1998), and The Evolution of Strategy in the Global War on Terrorism (2005), as well as numerous articles and essays on national security issues."

And there is no "we" in this. you were the one who inserted the work of an uncredentialed author into the article, not IΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 19:27, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Jung Chang has no relevance to this article, and I have no idea why you brought her up. As for Mr Leonhard, none of those credentials refer to China in the early 20th century or China at all. I don't see any serious historical works there either. John Smith's (talk) 21:52, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Dr. Leonhard was an American military officer and has a PHd, in addition to writing numerous books on the military. He specifically wrote about the International alliance participation in the Boxer Rebellion, since American military units were part of the Eight-Nation Alliance expeditional force under Edward Hobart Seymour. He is not writing about Chinese court politics, nor delving into Chinese traditions. His article "The China relief expedition- Joint Colaition Warfare in China Summer 1900", is about the international military alliance force which included american troops. He is a former military officer and worked in the National Security Analysis Department, so he is well qualified to write articles on military actions america took part with.

Under Admiral Seymour, Americans made up part of the Alliance force. I'd say that an American military officer is well qualified to write about military actions in which american troops took part in.

And only an educational instution in America can own a .edu site. Its impossible to fake.- "Starting on October 29, 2001, only post-secondary institutions and organizations that are accredited by an agency on the U.S. Department of Education's list of nationally recognized accrediting agencies are eligible to apply for a edu domain"ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 00:57, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

as I noted, he already wrote books on warfare, the Boxer rebellion qualifies very much as warfare.ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 00:57, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

"Dr. Leonhard is the author of The Art of Maneuver: Maneuver-Warfare Theory and AirLand Battle (1991), Fighting by Minutes: Time and the Art of War (1994), The Principles of War for the Information Age (1998), and The Evolution of Strategy in the Global War on Terrorism (2005), as well as numerous articles and essays on national security issues."ΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 00:59, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Ronglu deliberately gave conflicting orders to General Nie to make the imperial army fight the boxers and sabotage his performace against western forces

ReadΔΥΝΓΑΝΕ (talk) 19:43, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Dingane, There's no "sabotage" involved here. There is indecision and a change of policy on the part of the Chinese governement. Duan wanted to support the Boxers and attack the foreigners; Rong Lu thought that was a bad idea. The Empress Dowager, like every good politician, wavered between the two and delayed taking a decision as long as possible. A look at the timeline illustrates the situation.

June 10 -- General Nie allows Seymour and his army to travel on the railroad enroute to Peking. He had no orders from the government to stop Seymour. Instead he had orders to suppress the Boxers, which he was doing.

June 16 -- The Dowager Empress has a cabinet meeting. Rong Lu and Duan state their positions. The Dowager comes down on the side of Duan --support the Boxers, destroy the foreigners.

June 17 -- The foreigners attack the Dagu forts. This unprovoked attack strengthens the Duan, anti-foreign faction. Orders go out to Nie, presumably from Rong Lu, who in obedience to the decision of his sovereign, orders Nie to wage war on the foreigners and to support the Boxers.

June 18 -- Nie attacks Seymour in obedience to the orders he received from Rong Lu.

There's no sabotage involved here. Nie followed orders. Until June 16 or 17 those orders were to suppress the Boxers. He did so, as any good and obedient general would. On June 16 or 17 he got an order to attack the foreigners and support the Boxers. He attacked, again following orders.

Rong Lu argued that a war against the foreigners was stupid (and it certainly can be argued that he was right) but when the Dowager decided to fight the foreigners he saluted smartly and said "Yes, maam" and issued order to Nie to fight. Rong Lu probably knew the Dowager better than any other person, as they were childhood friends, and thus I think we can say with some confidence that he was carrying out his sovereign's wishes. That's not sabotage -- that's carrying out what you perceive to be your government's policy. That's what subordinates to a sovereign are supposed to do -- or fall on their sword.

1901: The shadow of an Empire#Ronglu During one of the 55 days of fighting at the legations district, Prince Duan ordered a Manchu commander to shell the legation using a German made cannon. The commander went to see Ronglu requesting an official military order for shelling the legation compound, all Ronglu said was:"The sound of those shells blasting would satisfied people inside Forbidden City". The commander understood the verbal order, he then made sure that all the 600 shells landed on a open field.)

Arilang ^talk 05:40, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Muslim Kansu Braves or Wuwei Troop

The official name of Dong Fuxiang army in Peking was Wuwei Rear Troop, that of Nie Shicheng is Wuwei Front Troop, there is no reason to use names other than the official names. Arilang ^talk 03:20, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Han Troops or Wuwei Front Troop

The official name of Nie Shicheng Army is Wuwei Front Troop, the best trained and best equipped army of the Dynasty at the time, not just any Han Troop. Likewise, the Eight Banners Troops were Hushenying of Prince Duan and Shenjiying of Ronglu. Arilang ^talk 05:11, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Dubious picture caption

The picture captioned "Execution of Boxers after the rebellion" actually depicts a kind of pillory device for confining prisoners and is not AFAIK depicting execution. Eregli bob (talk) 11:11, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Historical books

Tong Tekong, scholar, historian and university lecturer, Hou Yijie, scholar, historian and writer of university text books, Wang Shuzhen, history books writer, Jin Manluo and Yuan Weishi, and their books cover 10 to 70 years of Manchu Empire history, and yet, none of their books were being cited in all the Boxer Protocol related articles. Put it this way, their books cover many important historical topics, and Yihetuan is just part of them. Discussion is open now. Arilang ^talk 03:26, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Arilang1234's edits

I have reverted a lengthy series of POV edits by Arilang1234 here, which had restructured the Boxer Rebellion article around non-English sources with a radical anti-Boxer bias. The article no longer had a shred of neutrality and the chain of seemingly endless POV-pushing edits had to stop.

My reasoning for the revert was:

• The military conflict infobox up top describing the Boxers as all about looting and killing civilians was particularly egregious, a seriously bad, ACUTE lack of neutrality that had to be dealt with immediately. I was thinking, some sixth grade kid could be accepting that harsh, radical anti-Boxer bias as fact right now. Even though he attributes the POV content usually, that isn't enough because of WP:UNDUE WEIGHT and sometimes even WP:FRINGE. And certainly THE FRONT AND CENTER Infobox isn't the place for POV, even attributed POV.
• The entire tone of the article changed, and became ultra negative against the Boxers. WP:UNDUE WEIGHT came into play big time, such as citing Chinese language books that characterized the Boxers as "animalistic" and "gangs of bandits". That BAD lack of neutrality, awful. This should be taken seriously.

The citing and RS of Chinese language books had been discussed at [6], at the WP:RSN. User Nick Dupree, if you think Chinese source is not to be used in Wikipedia, you should at least raise it up at WP:RSN. Arilang ^talk 04:35, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

• The rash of additions by Arilang recently violate the policy on non-English sources because English sources of equal quality and relevance are available.

Brave=(Chinese:勇)http://www.hengqian.com/html/2010/3-20/a952870515.shtml 清兵背上的“兵”和“勇”的区别

• Questionable renaming: Yihetuan movement or Yihetuan Boxers is not what we call the Boxers in the preponderance of English sources--they are Boxers or Righteous Harmony Society or Society of Righteous Harmonious Fists, nor would we, in English, call the Gansu Braves "Wuwei Rear Troop."

User Nick Dupree, if you care to have a look at Kansu Braves article, at the info box, it is clearly stated that "Kansu Braves" is only a nickname. The official name of the army was Wuwei Rear Troop, and they should be addressed as Wuwei Rear Troop, there is no other choice. I hope you are not going to advocate the replacement of Japanese Imperial Army with "Japs", even though every GI used that term during WW2? Arilang ^talk 04:52, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Please don't re-add anything to Boxer Rebellion if it leaves any of the above problems unaddressed. NickDupree (talk) 04:06, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

On June 16, "at 9am, the Boxers set fire to the Deji Pharmacy at the Dasanlan district. The fire moved on to the food stores, the lamp street, the Guanyin temple, the jewel market ... and more then 4,000 shops were burned down. The fire did not stop until daylight. The bandits forbade the fire brigade to fight the fire with water." Thus, the most prosperous and busy section of Beijing was destroyed in one day. Overall, "at its peak, there were more than four million living in Beijing. When the Boxer chaos came, the bandits came and looted the city with no one spared. The market was deserted, and even wild animals can be seen roaming in broad daylight. The formerly busy streets were like graveyards." This was one of the results of the so-called Boxer "revolution." (http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060126_1.htmModernization and History Textbooks. By Yuan Weishi (Zhongshan University professor))

The above statement by professor Yuan Weishi, among other cited content were removed by user Nick Dupreehere claiming that it is disputed material. To me, the content removal was an act of violation of WP:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weight. My suggestion to user Nick Dupree: you should at least go and read the full text of Yuan Weishi's article, get to know more about Yihetuan boxers first. Arilang ^talk 04:19, 1 July 2011 (UTC)