Talk:Shrove Tuesday

Link

This needs a link from Lent

It is done. GusGus 21:43, 2004 Feb 25 (UTC)

Separately

I would have to vote, Shrove Tuesday is on its own. Being raised in the Episcopal Church I have always heard the term Shrove Tuesday even before I herd of Mardi Gras. I feel that the root of the celebration is the same but they have different feelings associated with them. Most people feel that Mardi Gras is a celebration just for the fun of it with a historical religious root that many have forgotten. Mardi Gras is also a week long event that ends on Shrove Tuesday. I think that most people who are familiar with Shrove Tuesday would feel that it is mainly a religious day to prepare for lent. The feast before the fast.

Greasy / fat Tuesday

I'm new here, but i'll put in my two cents worth. The name in the US is not "Fat Tuesday", rather that is an OCCASIONALLY tolerated translation of same. That is, "Mardi Gras" is far more common, and probably came first.

Aside from in Seattle, I have rarely HEARD "Fat Tuesday" actually. And I have *never* heard "Shrove" or "Shriven" - until I went googling around yesterday! I would say that for most people in the US, parties and festivals call "Mardi Gras", while more serious or quasi-religious contexts use "the night before Lent". Even at a church supper last night, everyone was calling it "the night before Lent". No "Shrove", no "Fat" anything.

Nor had I ever heard of "Pancake Day" before either, but something is brewing this year - I saw *6* local churches having "pancake supper"s last night; google caches reveal that last year most of them were simply "pot lucks", no mention of pancakes.

Jumping on the bandwagon, IHOP (chain resto) served *FREE* pancakes all day yesterday! A spokesman confirmed that this was the first time they've ever done that.

I suspect that within 2-3 years, the term "Pancake Day" will start to pop up in the US. If some celeb starts dropping it, perhaps earlier.

Cheers

xxxxx

Well, just to add my two cents: In Southern Germany we celebrate Fat Thursday (= Schmotziger Dunnschtig). "Schmotzig" means fatty/greasy and points to cookies baked in a lot of fat (some types of pancakes = "Fasnachtsküchle" or the "Berliner" = the donut without the hole).

Just a note for anyone who might consider adding alternative translations of "Fat Tuesday": for those not familiar with the US "Mardi Gras", the usual translation in the States is "Fat Tuesday" and that is also an alternative name for the festival. I've ventured the opinion that the "gras" could actually be better translated literally as "greasy" or "fatty", but this seems to be a matter of disagreement. My idea is that "gras", which can mean "fatty" (as in "cheveux gras" seen on bottles of shampoo for greasy hair), refers to the butter and lard people ate on that day, before giving it up, thus "fatty Tuesday". However, other people believe that "gras", which can mean "overweight", refers to the weight people put on eating that food, thus "overweight Tuesday". To me this seems only a matter of opinion, but as the name "Fat Tuesday" is so common, I'm being told my opinion, although a few others share it, is irrelevant and unhelpful and should not be added to the page. As I don't know if I'm right and it's just an alternative idea, I'm removing it, but I thought I'd write a note here in case anyone else had the same idea. Saintswithin 10:21, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Of course you're right. I thought that everyone knew that. Why is there any controversy about it ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:03, 2005 Jan 25 (UTC)

well people call it Fat Tuesday in the States and Canada, so get a teensy bit annoyed if you suggest another name might be a better translation :-) Saintswithin 10:11, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Oh, don't let that bother you. It's good for the minority who get wound up about that sort of thing to learn that there's more to the world than the American way. Take a look at the Talk:Yoghurt page for discussion of a similar issue. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:13, 2005 Jan 26 (UTC)

Pancake Tuesday

As a catholic australian, this day is also referred in my family as pancake tuesday. Not sure how universal it is and is undoubtably from the irish name for it. --agrosquid

I'm a non catholic in England and we call it pancake day. Its only significance to us is its the day we eat pancakes. This is a pretty mainstream thing I'm certain (I recall Blue Peter having a pancake day special when I was a child). This should be mentioned more ihn the article --Josquius 16:47, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've made a new page for Pancake Day rather than drowning this article with too much information about Britain. Feel free to add your reminiscences about Blue Peter there! Saintswithin 23:25, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Brought up a Scots catholic, we always called it pancake tuesday, never pancake day (to the extent that reading about pancake 'day' here is quite jarring, like reading the word 'rediculous'(sic)). Of course, maybe I always got this wrong as a child too :) Bazzargh 12:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

People in Ireland tend to call it 'Pancake Tuesday' over 'Pancake Day'. In fact, I've never heard anybody ever call it 'Pancake Day'. 83.70.225.197 14:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Another +1 for this being called "Pancake Tuesday" rather than "Pancake Day" in Ireland - I hadn't heard of Pancake Day before reading this. This is at least true around the Kilkenny/Tipperary area of Ireland. 216.239.33.25 (talk) 06:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC). Eh... at Pancake Tuesday this evening, I did a survey - and nobody has ever heard of Pancake Day, except one person who said "That's what Americans call it, isn't it?" That's ten more people. That reference saying Irish call it Pancake Day is just completely wrong 84.203.36.79 (talk) 23:48, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm a Newfoundlander and we always have referred to it as Pancake Tuesday. I think this can and should be reflected in the article here, especially given the obvious wide usage of Pancake Tuesday among different cultures that observe the day. It can be mentioned very briefly and without much problem. I see no problem with adding this small tidbit of necessary information. --Bentonia School (talk) 10:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm from the north of the UK (with Scottish Presbyterian ancestors) and aside from PC / Secular types (and recent lowest common denominator advertising) I had never heard of Shrove Tuesday being referred to as 'Pancake Day'. It sounds awfully like a future hell, where Easter is called 'Chocolate Egg Day' and Christmas known as 'Presents under tree Day'. I can understand this name being used in the US due to its 'melting pot' culture, but not in Britain.You can tell when it is shrove tuesday because everyone will be eating pancakes.

Having grown up in the Greater London area, "Pankcake Day" always the term used. Except for when "Jif Lemon Day" was occasionally substituted(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXaZ8ntStq0). I don't recall anyone ever calling it "Shrove Tuesday". 69.61.148.242 (talk) 16:02, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

I live in Nottinghamshire (East Midlands) and our family is from Gloucester (South-West). We have always referred to it as Pancake Day, and I recall being taught at school that it is properly called Shrove Tuesday. I have never heard the expression 'Pancake Tuesday' before I came across this page. In fact I came to this talk page, to suggest that the reference to Pancake Tuesday should be removed as it was 'obviously' just someone mixing up Pancake Day and Shrove Tuesday. However, it is interesting to see all the comments about it being called that in Ireland. I am extremely surprised indeed to hear that someone from the North of England has not heard of the term Pancake Day. I can understand why some people in the church may not approve of the term though. Phil the (talk) 16:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

More accurately "Shriven Tuesday"

With the praiseworthy Wikipedian penchant for a punctilious accuracy that rises above mere outworn tradition and non-American usage, shouldn't this more correctly have been at Shriven Tuesday and, following the general practice, eliminating a redirect from "Shrove Tuesday"? The verb, surely is "shrive, shrove, shriven" "shrove" being the past tense but "shriven" being the preferable past participle to be employed as an adjective according to Wikipedia standards. By settling upon an exquisitely correct title, wouldn't we be demonstrating the superior dependability of our information? Perhaps this would be suitably determined by a vote. --Wetman 04:58, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't the british conjugation be "shrive, shrove, shrived" actually? They are not wont to use the -en forms as often as us Yanks - cf. use of "has drived" where an American would say "has driven".

Come to think of it, I'm even surprised they use the O form in the past tense. As with

US: drive, drove, driven UK: drive, drived, drived

wouldn't a Brit be inclined to use "shrived" as the simple past?

In any case, I do agree with your point about needing the participle, but you can't "correct" a term which has been wrong for 100s of years. I'm sure there are other such examples.

Cheers

xxxxx

I know this is woefully out of date, but I've never heard a literate (i.e. over the age of 5 or so particularly) Brit say 'drived' - the above is tosh. 87.112.67.243 15:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

^^^ - Indeed, "drived" is not used by any Englishman over the age of 4. You cannot change the name (i.g. Shrove Tuesday) due to bad spelling/grammar/verb conjugation as it is no longer a sentence, therefore it cannot be corrected.87.74.10.145 08:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Well I'm not sure. I intially agreed with you but then thought about it and perhaps you might say "I drived there yesterday" or "He drived me mad!". The so-called 'US' versions are equally (if not more) acceptable though. Anyway, as the person above says, Shrove Tuesday is the name of it, whether thats grammatically correct or not. EAi 14:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Try saying it out loud without sounding like a toddler. It's impossible. No-one sober would say drived. The name of the day is Shrove Tuesday and probably always will be. No offence, but only an idiot would think otherwise. Big Moira 02:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I argue that "Shrove Tuesday" ought to be maintained as a separate article regardless of etymology for the strict and simple reason that this is how it's referred to in many regions, including the region I am from (the southeastern United States, specifically North Carolina). Many Protestant Christian churches here which have no Lenten fast from meat still celebrate Shrove Tuesday *by that name* with at least a secular event; hence merging this with Mardi Gras might provoke further confusion. 199.90.32.252 02:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)H. Fisher

The term "Shrove Tuesday" is by far the more widely used term in the English speaking world - sometimes, the term "Pancake Day" is used as a synonym for the day, but purists will almost certainly insist that the day gets called "Shrove Tuesday". ACEOREVIVED (talk) 19:46, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Not sure - Christians Stole it from Pagans, Balts?

I am not saying that my question is true, or a fact but it really seems that Christians stole Shrove Tuesday from Pagans, or Balts when Lithuanian king Mindaugas was Baptised, and all of the Lithuanian kingdom was turned/converted to Christianity although they were Pagans. In England, the time of Shrove Tuesday tradition begining was 1445, which was 200 years later after the baptism (1251). In old times, i guess that the spreading of the Shrove tuesday would have went from eastern europe to the celtic (western) europe slowly. Basically i would think that hes a traitor or something and if anyone knows any information about these times, please tell me! User:Wykis

Still, most traditions are being held in Lithuania and Latvia, as well as Poland and other countries around.

Still, it seems odd to have links to Pagans, Balts and Slavs at the bottom, when these things are not mentioned in the article. Ordinary Person 08:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

shrove tuesday

Raised as a catholic in australia, 'pancake tuesday' was the name of the day used for kids, we still use the old english 'shrove' among adults, so both is acceptable. The reason was to use up certain 'luxury' foods before giving them up for lent. I really wouldn't say australians refer to the day as 'pancake tuesday' exclusively.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.7.38 (talk • contribs)

Shrove Tuesday is when you prepare your self for Lent to start. You would eat pancakes to fill yourself up with sugar because you are fasting because Jesus was in the desert for forty days and was not tempted but he was pushed to be tempted.

International pancake race

Why was the score of the race deleted? Isopropyl 03:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. But isn't it ironic you said what you said on Shrove Tuesday.--Greasysteve13 06:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

If "it is said" then tell us who said it. Hearsay is not appropriate for an encyclopedia. Do villagers say this? You should site a source, but stating that "villagers say" would avoid my searches for the phrase "it is said". WhoSaid?

Are you talking to me or Isopropyl?--Greasysteve13 11:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

WhoSaid? is talking to me, although I didn't write that passage. In the future, instead of blanking the section, it's probably better if you reword it. Especially if only three words need to be changed. If you require assistance, editing help is available. Thanks! Isopropyl 13:31, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Main image

...is a crepe? Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 23:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

No the main image is of American style pancakes, thicker griddle pancakes rather than the ones that are traditionally made on Shrove Tuesday or Pancake Day wherever they celebrate it. The main image should be changed to something like this one: http://static.deliaonline.com/images/originals/cc296-basic-pancakes-2-20775.jpg (Check the date of this comment, can you tell I can't wait to make pancakes again! ByteofKnowledge| 21:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• What's up with those three thumbnail images after the TOC? They're not all that relevant or pleasing to look at, especially when they're so small. Surely, one pancake image will do? But yes, this has nothing to do with American pancakes. - Mgm|^(talk) 10:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Reason for eating pancakes on Shrove Tuesday

When I was living in Scotland, the local Dundonians told me that the reason for eating pancakes on "Shrove Tuesday", was to use up the eggs and milk in the house the night before Lent starts (time of penance and giving up of luxuries). I think something to that effect should be added to the article, because to this point that connection is not clear. Yahawena 20:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)Els

Yes, I have hear this too. --mfx ^Q&A 15:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe this is true, but it should be sourced. EAi 14:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge with mardi gras?

I'm suggesting a merge or other possible reorganisation at talk:Mardi Gras. Stevage 11:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

No way. We are researching Shrove Tuesday for an Australian Catholic school assignment. Mardi Gras isn't relevant to us, though we'd love to visit and participate in one!210.49.178.252 07:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Although both articles are similar, they're both long and both quite distinct in what they cover, I'd leave them as they are. EAi 14:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

No, absolutely not... cross links could be added, but Shrove Tuesday has a character and a tradition all its own, distinct from Mardi Gras, though both recognize the last day before Lent.

So can we remove the suggestion to merge? W00tfest99 19:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree with removing the suggestion to merge, can someone do this? 194.80.32.10 20:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to join the chorus of disagreement. Mardi Gras is a festival to the rest of the world, Shrove Tuesday is a day to make enough pancakes to start involuntary bulimia. The two just happen to be on the same day now, they have diverged so far.Big Moira 02:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge flag removed, consensus quite clearly against (and a year old) 79.72.85.150 (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Dutch/Fastnacht Day

This isn't quite an accurate description of fastnachts. They are like a donut, but there is no hole, and they are less sweet. Also, there is never glaze, but they are sometimes dusted with powdered sugar. We refer to Fat Tuesday as Fastnacht (or Fastnaucht) Day, Fastnacht meaning "Fast Night."

reference: http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=2917435 "Some fastnachts are made with yeast, some with potatoes and yeast, and some without either. They call for lard if available. Traditionally, all fastnachts were made with, and fried in, lard" (in order to use up the house's lard befor Lent).

Actually, living in Lancaster county, commercially, glazed is what we predominantly find (and sell out the fastest) I don't know if this is technically correct for the historical culture.Trex005 14:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Pancake Day

As an Australian, I have never heard of Pancake Day or Shrove Tuesday refered to as Mardi Gras. I think merging the two titles would make it more confusing for non-Americans to find what information they are looking for. When I hear Mardi Gras, I think of the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, or the Mardi Gras held in Rio. I had no idea that some people thought that Mardi Gras and Pancake Day were the same thing!

UK, Ireland, Australia --> Commonwealth Countries

Some more investigation would need to be done into this to see if it is really true of most commonwealth countries, but here in Canada we seem to follow the tradition under the UK, Ireland and Australia heading for the most part, calling it "Shrove Tuesday" or occasionally "Pancake Tuesday". Mardi Gras is associated with the New Orleans or Brazilian festivities. The unique tradition here is that we tend to put maple syrup rather than icing sugar on the pancakes. Anyways, perhaps the title for that section should be changed to "Commonwealth Countries" if my suspicion that practices across the commonwealth are mostly similar. Opinions? Renzo 80 15:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe Ireland is a member fo the Commonwealth, but other than that. I would also suspect it's confined to more countries within the Commonwealth (plus Ireland) which have a more "western" culture —The preceding unsigned comment was added by David Underdown (talk • contribs) 15:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

You are correct, Ireland is not a member of the Commonwealth. Ian Goggin 22:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Here in Northern Ireland I've never known Shrove Tuesday to be a holiday, contrary to what the article states Easter Monday/Tuesday is the official Easter related public holiday. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.249.105 (talk) 18:23, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd suggest the British Isles and Commonwealth Countries, but that might be too confusing and have the Irish Nationalists out bombing again (joke, I know you've stopped) Big Moira 02:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Here in the UK it is I think still mostly known as Shrove Tuesday, or else Pancake Day, but never "Pancake Tuesday". In our increasingly multicultural multi-religion country recognition of this day seems to be dying off unfortunately. I was brought up to put demerera sugar and lemon juice on my pancakes. And I never knew of any connection with Mardi Gra until I read this article today - so thats when they have the celebration in Rio, maybe. 78.147.248.174 (talk) 22:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

No, I think this isn't correct, "Pancake Tuedsay" is a common term for Shrove Tuesday, more common that "Pancake Day". Shrove Tuesday may be the proper name, but it is very uncommon.Biscit (talk) 14:14, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

According to the discussion above "Pancake Tuesday" and "Pancake Day" are both used roughly equally, but in different areas. Danikat (talk) 19:52, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Merge in Fastnacht day

Fastnacht day is a very specific cultures celebration. It may be for the same event, but I don't think they should be merged. Maybe just linked to each other. Trex005 14:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Fasnacht is a very important cultural event in Switzerland (like Carnival is to Rio or Venice) and has nothing to do with Pancakes or the English holiday beyond the fact that it also occurs before Ash Wednesday. Additionally, I'm sure much can be said about both topics, and they would probably each grow to be too large to keep in one article anyway. Let's just link to them in either article but allow each to remain separate. Goldfishbutt 04:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree as well - do not merge Fasnacht with Shrove Tuesday, as Fasnacht has different roots. Never in 25 years in southern Germany have I heard of any link between Fasnacht and pancakes...

US usage

I grew up entirely in the US. We referred to it as Shrove Tuesday before I knew of the connection to Mardi Gras. For reference, I grew up in the Houston area in the Episcopal Church. We celebrated with a pancake supper at the church every year. I don't recall actually referring to the day as Pancake Day, though. In fact, we used the terminology separately, with Mardi Gras just being an overall celebration and Shrove Tuesday more tied to the religious aspects. I realize my info is not officially a reliable source, but it was jarring to me to see us excluded from the term. I wonder if perhaps it was an Episcopal thing, what with the Anglican connection? I see someone else mentioned Episcopal up there. --Siradia (talk) 04:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I was noticing that this talks alot about it being observed in the U.K. and such, but no mention of it in the U.S. But it seems to be pretty prevelent within the Protestant churches. Sirandia is Episcopal in Texas. I grew up with it in the Methodist church in Ohio and now in Maryland. The article probably should include at least some reference to the U.S. usage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PerlKnitter (talk • contribs) 14:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we add detail of the current year's date to the top of the page?

Can we add detail of the current year's date to the top of the page?

When I come to a holiday/date-related page from a search engine I am usually looking for the date for the current or coming year, so - agrandising myself to a typical Wikipedia user - it would be very useful to have the dates for the current and coming year at the top of the page. If you backed holiday/date-related pages with a list/table of dates you could generate that quite easily.

Willllll (talk) 04:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Jif Lemon Day

I know this is rather trivial, it's in the same vein as the annual restocking of Creme Eggs before Easter: Jif, a brand of lemon juice (sold in plastic lemons as well as bottles) have advertised for Pancake Tuesday in Ireland (and probably UK) with the tagline of "Jif Lemon Day, have you forgotten something?" (plate with lemon juice, no pancakes) to remind people to lay in some lemon juice for the occasion.

zoney ♣ talk 00:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

How sickening. The marketing man who thought that up ought to be shot. Thankfully I have never heard of it in the UK. 78.147.248.174 (talk) 22:44, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

This television advertising was run in South East England when I was young. I can't remember exactly when probably late 80's or early 90's but I remember the advert very clearly. I could never understand why people didn't just buy lemons! P.S. The advert also indicates that "pancake day" was the usual colloquial term for Shrove Tuesday at the time in this area or else the marketing men would probably have said "Jif Lemon Tuesday" instead.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.40.25 (talk) 16:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC) 

This television advert ran in the mid 80's. I can still perfectly recall the man's voice saying "Don't forget the pancakes on Jif Lemon Day".86.173.78.190 (talk) 16:52, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

We do not need to clutter the article up with pieces of trivial information such as that one. Most Wikipedians (myself included) are against Wikipedia going in for advertising (after all, see Wikipedia: What Wikipedia is not; so it is best if this article simply concentrates on the more academic, historical and cultural aspects of dissemination of knowledge about Shrove Tuesday. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 16:29, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

"Shrove Tuesday" in Ireland?- Never!

I have never heard anybody call Pancake Tuesday "Shrove Tuesday" in Ireland. I notice the article which claims this is not Irish and also terms Ireland as part of something called the "British Isles". I'm removing this nonsense immediately. 86.42.84.131 (talk) 11:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Just because you've never heard the term use doesn't make this an unrelaible source - neither does the use of the term British Isles which is usually perceived as a geographical, rather than cultural, term. David Underdown (talk) 12:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It is called "Pancake Tuesday" in Ireland. I was born and raised in Ireland as were my parents. I am 57 years old. I have a TV and radio and a computer. I read Irish newspapers. I have travelled widely in Ireland. if it was called Shrove Tuesday here, don't you think I might have noticed by now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.218.46 (talk) 19:09, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, usually perceived by the same British people whose British state has coincidentally been occupying Ireland for centuries. What a purely geographical term indeed. That this writer claims "Shrove Tuesday" is the name used in Ireland just reaffirms the benighted ignorance of all who shove Ireland into a "British Isles" context and try to impose British cultural traditions upon our society. Shrove Tuesday is your tradition; Pancake Tuesday is ours. Just accept it, and stop being so, well, so British about this. Reverted. 86.42.84.131 (talk) 13:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It is sourced to what otherwsie appears to be a reliable source (and the author's name certainly looks Irish, even if the website is not!), Pancake Day is certainly as common a usage in Britain as Shrove Tuesday, which is more of a religious term (I would certainly be surprised to find that members fo the Church of Ireland were not familiar with the term Shrove Tuesday), the point is, the usage is verifiable, even if it doesn't match up with your own personal experience. I'll not revert you again however. David Underdown (talk) 13:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I consider this completely mistaken (only based on my knowledge of where I've grown up and lived in Ireland personally), and I've mailed the authors of the page to see if I can get a confirmation about whether this is the name they knew in Ireland, or in the US (separate Irish person from whoever was discussing this above, but just as sure about what we call the day). 84.203.36.79 (talk) 01:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

There are two million pages in Wikipedia. If you go around deleting things just because you've never heard of them then it's going to be a lot smaller. 535 googlehits: site:ie "shrove tuesday". 7480 googlehits: site:ie "pancake tuesday". We also have an article British Isles naming dispute you might find informative. How ironic to assume that something you happen to be ignorant of is a British imposition when in fact it is a Roman Catholic tradition largely suppressed by the Reformation. Catholic Encyclopedia: Shrovetide jnestorius^(talk) 10:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Use of the term "British Isles" is controversial though, whatever about the history of the term being purely a geographic term. It's rather silly to pretend no-one's going to have any problem with Ireland being termed on of the British Isles. The term should be avoided where it is unnecessary (indeed often what is meant is specifically UK and Ireland, i.e. not necessarily Isle of Man, etc.) zoney ♣ talk 11:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The term was never used in the article ehre, it was only used in the reference, and seemed to be one fo the reasons that the anon felt it was unreliable. (as an aside, most Brits aren't aware of the controversial status of the term, and would probably use it by default) David Underdown (talk) 13:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Echoing the above. I'm British, and (I'd like to think) not entirely ignorant of non-British sensibilities, but was genuinely surprised when I first realised how unhappy many Irish people are with the term "British Isles" even in purely geographical contexts. Of course, as has been done to death, the main problem is that there's no other term remotely as widely understood. "Isles of the North Atlantic" and so on are, however much people would like it to be otherwise, very much niche terms. It gets worse still if the various non-UK and non-Ireland bits of the archipelago are excluded. (I speak from bitter experience, having needed to write an article covering the UK, Ireland and the Channel Islands but specifically excluding the Isle of Man.) 217.33.74.204 (talk) 12:48, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Oops, that was me (not signed in). In case anybody is wondering, it was hillclimbing that caused the problem. The British Hill Climb Championship includes rounds in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Jersey and Guernsey, so just "UK" wouldn't do. A similar form of the sport is practised in the Republic of Ireland - but not, as far as I know, in the Isle of Man. Even if it is, calling an article Hillclimbing in the United Kingdom, Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man is ridiculous, yet if I can't use "Hillclimbing in the British Isles" then what other choice would I have? There are other forms of the sport distinctly different from the UK (etc) version, and it is generally a geographical distinction, so I was a bit stuck! Sorry for rambling off-topic there... Loganberry (Talk) 12:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "Fat Thursday" only "Fat Tuesday"

With all due respect, I am Polish and I know what we celebrate. The Polish people do not celebrate "Fat Thursday", there is no such thing. Paczkis are eaten on "Fat Tuesday". I challenge you to find anyone who is celebrating "Fat Thursday". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jedam (talk • contribs) 17:27, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Well Google finds 28,000-odd results for "Fat Thursday", so I don't think it would be too difficult. David Underdown (talk) 18:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

David is right; check out the Polish Wikipedia: pl:Tłusty czwartek (Fat Thursday, not Tuesday). Lesgles (talk) 20:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

David and Lesgles, are either one of you Polish? Lesgles, you provided the link to the Polish version of the same incorrect article that exists in English, which doesn't prove anything. When I offered the challenge, I meant for someone to find a news article celebrating "Fat Thursday" 2009. Poles don't celebrate "Fat Thursday". I am a 45 year old, Polish American, Roman Catholic and I know my traditions. Here are some resources: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9405E0D7103CF933A25751C0A961958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1 or http://reliableanswers.com/general/celebrate_fat_tuesday.asp or http://easteuropeanfood.about.com/od/fattuesday/Fat_Tuesday.htm or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P5t9M6vIRs Jedam 01:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jedam (talk • contribs)

Have you actually looked at the Google search reasults I linked to. Plenty of those appear to be Polish sites and talk about Fat Thursday, it did look as if one or two say it's often moved to the Tuesday in the US, but the original tradition is for the Thursday before Lent. For example this one, http://www.warsawvoice.pl/view/17081/, which is from 2008, not 2009 admittedly. This one, http://oxpolsoc.org/2009/02/tlusty-czwartek-fat-thursday however is for this year. Out of interest, what is the literal translation of Tłusty czwartek? David Underdown (talk) 09:15, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The literal translation of "tłusty czwartek" is "fat Thursday" (tłusty = fat, greasy; czwartek = Thursday). — Kpalion^(talk) 22:14, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and I'll pick up the gauntlet. I will (like everybody else in Poland) celebrate Fat Thursday, which happens to be one of my favorite traditions, tomorrow and I'm gonna get my fill of jelly donuts. — Kpalion^(talk) 22:21, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

It is officially Fat Thursday now which is most definitely widely celebrated in Poland (and among the UK Poles as well) with pączki but what nobody mentioned so far is that actually the Shrove Tuesday equivalent in Poland (and among most Polish catholics in the UK) is what is known as 'ostatki' which is next Tuesday = the last day of carnival before Ash Wednesday (Lent)when poeple were able to eat rich food and enjoy themselves. Even today, on this day some people would party at home with friends or attend the last ball of the season where one of the main traditional sweet dishes is 'faworki' and finish at midnight when Lent officially begins. In the more remote past one of the traditions was for the host to bring a plate of herrings (traditional lent food) at midnight to their partying guests as an indication the celebrations were over and it was time to go home and start fasting. Tłusty Czwartek and Ostatki are two separate though similar traditions connected with the end of carnival and both are still very much alive in Poland. So pączki today and faworki next week. Lovely!Kantylena (talk) 01:25, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I humbly stand corrected! In all my years, I had never heard any Polish family, friends, or relatives mention "Fat Thursday"; it has always been "Fat Tuesday". (How far does this celebration actually date back?) This experience has taught me a valuable lesson about patience and discernment. I apologize. And thank you for not taking that gauntlet (see above) and chopping off my head! You have all been very patient and understanding. Thank you. Therese Jedam 23:59, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, Polish-Americans probably adjusted to the Mardi Gras tradition, even though it's celebrated on Thursday in Poland. Ausir (talk) 00:45, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Mardi Gras Flag

There's an image of the "Mardi Gras Flag" under "Dates". What is this, and what relevance does it have? Bagunceiro (talk) 14:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

"Meat stew"?

I've never ever heard of anyone in the UK eating pancakes with a "meat stew", not even in the past. 78.147.248.174 (talk) 22:46, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm from Yorkshire and in my locality we traditionally do eat it with meat stew. It was a way of people using up all their meat, eggs and milk before lent. My family and I (as well as pretty much everyone I know) still eats pancakes with a beef stew and potatoes. It's only my southern-born father who introduced us to the sweet variety - and then only as a dessert. Do people actually have sweet pancakes as a main meal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.139.130 (talk) 09:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

In answer to the above: yes, some people do have just sweet pancakes as a meal. That was the tradition when I was growing up in the 80s, my parents were from Northumberland and the West Midlands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.224.242.36 (talk) 13:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm from near London and in my experience people don't eat sweet pancakes as a main meal exactly, it's more like skipping dinner and having more pancakes instead. Kind of like skipping breakfast on Christms morning because you're eating chocolate instead. 109.145.208.77 (talk) 17:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Needs more emphasis on Shrove Tuesday alone

With so much coverage of what the day is called as Mardi Gras (and associated terms) and how it is celebrated in Catholic countries and communities, this article loses focus. Shrove Tuesday was part of a Protestant tradition formed after the Reformation. There is a separate article on Mardi Gras, and the many celebrations, names, and foods of Catholic countries and ethnic communities do not need to be repeated here. That is too much to wade through. Also, the article circles around, repeating content about foods (pancakes) in the UK and Commonwealth countries, then about sports traditions, then more about food. It is very repetitious and needs serious editing.--Parkwells (talk) 16:30, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Coins/Objects in Pancakes

I'm from Catholic from Canada, and when we celebrated Shrove/Pancake Tuesday, we always baked coins into the pancakes. Does anyone else know about this tradition, was it isolated to us, or did other people do it as well, and what were its origins??? 94.100.23.52 (talk) 11:27, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

That's an odd tradition, I too am a Canadian Catholic, and I have never heard of that, ever... Something passed in down in the family I'm guessing, because this is not widespread tradition. Outback the koala (talk) 17:35, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Even odder; I'm son of an immigrant Englishman and raised C.of E., and we put coins in...crepes, but still. Not sure of the origins, but it might be related to the 'king cake' of Mardi Gras (the one with the bean in his cake gets to be the 'king of the day' and rule over the festivities), or even just a little treat for the kids? Maybe as using up the last of the 'luxury' foodstuffs was just before the beginning of Lent and the sacrifice to honour Christ, maybe it was also an early monetary sacrifice? Heck, maybe it was just a convenient way to remind everyone to take their money with them for the Tuesday collection!? I'm gonna have to get in touch with pater and see if he remembers why... Empath (talk) 22:36, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Mobygirl1985, 8 March 2011

{{edit semi-protected}}

Semla

In Finland and Sweden, the day is associated with the almond paste-filled semla pastry.

Should be changed to

Semla

In Finland and Sweden, the day is associated with the semla pastry filled with almond paste or whipped cream and jam.

Because the pastry is avaliable in 2 forms with these 2 fillings, not just with almond paste

Mobygirl1985 (talk) 16:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 92.17.135.220, 8 March 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} The pancake bell was moved from the corner of Huntress Row and Westborough to the Coorner of North Street and Westborough in Scarborough

92.17.135.220 (talk) 19:07, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Is there an external source to confirm this information? It's needed for the information to be incorporated into the article. --Deryck C. 20:21, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Michelle92e, 8 March 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Also known as Crepe Tuesday.

Michelle92e (talk) 22:33, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Never heard of it. Would you please provide a source? --Deryck C. 23:00, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I have untranscluded all 3 of the above edit requests, since this page is not currently semi-protected. However, I will note that the second 2 requests shouldn't be added to the article until sources are provided. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:41, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

~More emphasis on Olney needed

Since the Pancake Race at Olney is the most famous Pancake Race in the United Kingdom, Olney could have had a a lot more prominence in the section "Festivities". ACEOREVIVED (talk) 00:09, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Reference to English speaking countries

The early reference is to "English speaking countries" but then there is a contradiction. We read "especially Ireland, the United Kingdom, the United States, Canada " - fair enough, they are all English-speaking - but why is the reference then given to Germany and the Philippines? The language of Germany is German, and in the Philipinnes, it is Filipino, which is based on Tagalog. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 00:51, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

More importantly, is there any evidence that this day is mostly celebrated in English speaking countries? I would have thought it is celebrated by all Christians, and the main text of the article bears that out. Ashmoo (talk) 10:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Why not just redirect it to Mardis Gras, which is already a proper article? 193.2.132.118 (talk) 19:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

can we fix it now?

Now that the dust has settled about mardi gras and jeudi gras and shriven etc, can we address the fact that this article is about Shrove Tuesday and not mardi gras, by noting that the lede goes on about pancakes before addressing the topic? Pancake Tuesday (which is as ancient a thing as "Turkey day" for American Thanksgiving) can be mentioned later, as a link to another article. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 17:58, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Pagan history

The sources cited for the pagan history link do not seem particularly scholarly - I wonder just how reliable that whole idea is. The Catholic Encyclopedia referenced indicates that the concept of Shrove Tuesday is older. Someone must have researched this. -- Beardo (talk) 06:46, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2017

I've found a reliable informative website, which is ranking on Bing and Yahoo search engines on 1st page (even on Google but not on 1st page) which have all the articles containing Shrove Tuesday, Pancake Day and Ash Wednesday. Thus, I want to edit some information here regarding Shrove Tuesday. People will let know about the website (http://www.shrovetuesday.org/) which i'm discussing on it, If editors can edit the information from that website. Thus, it will be really helpful for the visitors, who'll the find the right information. Thanks Amar77711 (talk) 20:38, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Additionally, we don't normally add links to external sites just for the fun of it per WP:ELNO. Stickee (talk) 22:54, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Bogus "Four Pillars" claim

I have removed a false claim about the "Four Pillars" of Christianity. It had been refuted in the article, without making reference to a source. The source cited to bolster the false claim is not a reliable source for Christian doctrine, it is a secular, commercial purveyor of "business news". These reporters have no interest in fact-checking outside their milieu. I have replaced it with a source from the Orthodox Church. 2600:8800:1880:2B95:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 03:03, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

March 5, 2019 edits

I'm afraid I messed something up. There was some vandalism today, probably from being a featured article. I tried reversing it, but it looks like an anonymous editor was trying to do the same thing at the same time. I'm going to give up, and hope someone smart enoughcan revert the changes all the way back. Fcrary (talk) 23:25, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

article needs revision

The article suffers from being a mix of tourism and folklore. This is evident in the confusion over who has ever heard of it, and the difference between Shrove Tuesday and Mardi Gras; indeed this confusion starts in the first line. E.g. "Shrove Tuesday is observed by many Christians, including Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists and Roman Catholics,[2] who "make a special point of self-examination, of considering what wrongs they need to repent, and what amendments of life or areas of spiritual growth they especially need to ask God's help in dealing with."[3]" I looked at the first footnote ([2] and Roman Catholics are not mentioned anywhere in the article. The article is the sort of thing a town journalist writes to describe what some folks are doing on Tuesday. It is not academic and does not prove anything. I looked at footnote [3]. It is Anglican and again not academic, even though it is hosted at an academic site. So it does not reference anything other than what the author has heard of.

So the problem here is a sort of original research, where the person who wrote the above line put together some pious thoughts and created a sentence that is really not true.

The article seems to assume that Shrove Tuesday is some sort of universal 'thing' which because of its date is superimposed over another sort of universal thing "Mardi gras" which it is not the same as. And neither "Shrove Tuesday" nor "Mardi gras" are "observed" or "celebrated" as religious days in the sense that say Christmas or Ash Wednesday are observed. They are cultural concepts that arose in a religious culture.

I suggest that this article be trimmed of its whimsy and its imperialism. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 00:57, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

A proposal to merge with this article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

No strong keep Mardi Gras as is. The term 'Mardi Gras' is widely used in many non-Anglo societies - most who have never heard of Strove / Pancake Tuesday. 'Mardi Gras' has increasing usage in Western Societies. B20097 (talk) 21:17, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. Related but with enough differences and details to warrant continued separate articles. -- Infrogmation (talk) 05:00, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose merger. Shrove Tuesday as celebrated in the English-speaking or Anglican world has nothing to do with Mardi Gras as celebrated in Latin-American countries, although both are based around the same church calendar day. Bermicourt (talk) 18:52, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose merger. Shrove Tuesday is part of a preparation for the Lenten fasting and not a party. In many Celtic Catholic traditions is NOT a celebration, but the using up of forbidden foods, not unlike Observant Jews tossing out Chametz and any food that could be mistaken for Chametz called Kitniyot. Confusing the using up of foods to be avoid during Lent with Mardi Gras is not a good idea. They may spring from the same basic religious concerns, but Shrove Tuesday is not a Pancake eating contest washed down with ale or mixed drinks. Bad idea. LiPollis (talk) 23:13, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.