Talk:Djibouti

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 January 2022

Correction: Djibouti is next to Somaliland, Somalia not “Somaliland”. Atabit (talk) 12:49, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. This will clearly be a contentious change. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:55, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

March 2022

Hello @Shirshore:,

I reverted your recent edit since it was quite frankly unnecessary. Somaliland's status has already been covered by the efn tag, which clearly states "Self-declared country but internationally considered to be part of Somalia". Your edit is disruptive and is POV pushing. Gebagebo (talk) 23:45, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: If it is “necessary” or not is a POV argument. According to its government, Djibouti borders Somalia and not Somaliland as a country. This should suffice but you think this should be substantiated more — a plethora of reliable publications are available. I would advise you to please resist reverting an edit before engaging on the talk page unless the edit clearly violates Wikipedia guidelines.

Shirshore (talk) 00:06, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on facts on the ground and not on legalities. Somaliland being a de facto state not only borders Djibouti but also controls all border posts on the border. Just because it lacks recognition doesn't mean that it should be erased completely. Had you actually read through the beginning of the intro you would've seen an efn tag that clearly explains the de jure-de facto situation. Then is the fact that reverting isn't exactly illegal, and I make sure to contact the editor whose edits I have reverted.

Either way I hope the efn tag solves this issue along with the issue over at Ethiopia. Gebagebo (talk) 00:17, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

@Gebagebo: I was not aware of this. Can you direct me to the relevant Wikipedia guidelines that stipulate in this context the situation on the ground should supersede the internationally recognised borders. Thanks, Shirshore (talk) 00:33, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:NPOV, all content needs to represent fairly, proportionately, and without editorial bias all the significant views, whether that be de facto or de jure. What you're doing is making the lead one-sided, ignoring the actual reality on the ground by favouring a specific POV.

Then is the fact that you literally reverted my edits less than 50 minutes later (Djibouti, Ethiopia) despite me taking initiatives to fairly describe the situation in accordance with NPOV. That is disruptive editing, something which you have been blocked for earlier ([1]) like I've mentioned before. Please stop disruptively editing and cease your edit warring. Gebagebo (talk) 01:12, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

What you are actually doing is to use a WP:fringe-like argument that is the opposite of what NPOV really means. Somaliland is not recognized by a single sovereign state. Wikipedia's neutral point of view is to maintain such position and not give undue weight to an internal conflict in Somalia. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 01:29, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

How is this exactly fringe? Many reliable sources state that Djibouti borders Somaliland (despite its de jure lack of recognition) (Lonely Planet, The Europa World Year Book 2003, Africa South of the Sahara 2004, Africa Contemporary Record, Africa Research Bulletin Volume 38

Regional Politics and State Secession (page 104) by Elizabeth A. Nelson also states: "There is, however, acknowledgment that Somaliland is, in fact, separate from the rest of Somalia. The United States, France, and the United Kingdom sent a delegation to Somaliland to observe its presidential elections in 2017. The UK and France are also among a number of states that accept Somaliland passports for entry into their countries", which is also repeated in a Council on Foreign Relations article ([2]).

Somaliland is also treated as a state in many cases and Somalia has no de facto sovereignty over its territory, for instance DP World signed a $442 million agreement with Somaliland to operate a regional trade and logistics hub at the Port of Berbera ([3]), despite Somalia's parliament terminating the deal ([4]) and later on banning DP World from operating on its soil ([5]) the agreement is still in place, with a new container terminal being opened in accordance with the agreement ([6]). Gebagebo (talk) 14:42, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Also given that this is a contentious change to the lead Shirshore would have to seek consensus for this instead of unilaterally removing the content (especially since it contained an efn tag that literally explained its de jure lack of recognition and de facto sovereignty in its territory). Gebagebo (talk) 14:44, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I didn't say it was fringe. I specifically said it was fringe-like. The following sentences will be written with a "NPOV argument" and "based on facts on the ground" (in the same way you describe your proposed addition) that I have read at articles and talk pages by people attempting to use the WP:NPOV policy but twisting it to the point it becomes WP:UNDUE weight:

• Caitlyn Jenner is an American media personality and retired Olympic gold medal-winning decathlete. Born as a male, Jenner gained fame as "an all-American hero". He competed in multiple events and eventually he won a gold medal in decathlon at the 1976 Summer Olympics. Jenner then retired and became a member of the Kardashians. Since 2015, Jenner identifies as a female.
• Earth is the third planet from the Sun and the only astronomical object known to harbor life. The planet is said to be spheric-like, whose surface is 71% water; the remaining is land. In recent years, theories that the planet is not actually spheric but flat have started to be more accepted by the community.
• Somaliland is a de facto state. Found within Somalia, it borders Djibouti and Ethiopia. According to travel guide editorial Lonely Planet, the reference book The Europa World Year Book, the guide to all sub-Saharan African countries Africa South of the Sahara, the record compilator Africa Contemporary Record, and the peer-reviewed academic journal Africa Research Bulletin, the sovereign states actually border Somaliland and not Somalia, the country that claims its sovereignty.

See what I mean with "fringe-like pseudo-NPOV"? None of the sources above is authoritative for geo-politics. You are using a minor view to "depart significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field" (i.e. international borders). Not even the statements said by Nelson ("The United States, France, and the United Kingdom sent a delegation to Somaliland" and "the UK and France are also among a number of states that accept Somaliland passports for entry into their countries)" are an indication of a support on Somaliland or that Somaliland is to be treated as a different region/country in Africa. The UK government recommends to avoid traveling to Somaliland, a region of Somalia, the French government calls Somaliland a region within Somalia, "The United States recognizes the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Somalia within its 1960 borders in accordance with the Somali provisional constitution, which includes Somaliland and Puntland". And let's not forget about Djibouti's government ("the Republic of Djibouti is a country in the Horn of Africa. Covering an area of ​​23,200 km2, it is bordered to the north by Eritrea, to the west and south by Ethiopia and to the south-east by Somalia.") and Ethiopia's government: "It is bordered by the Sudan in the west, Somalia and Djibouti in the east, Eritrea in the north and Kenya in the south" (although this is from 2013, Somaliland declared its independence in 1991).

And I'm sorry to inform you that Shirshore has absolutely no reason to start to discuss your proposed inclusion nor to seek consensus to remove it. The WP:BRD process actually requires you to do that. You were bold, you were reverted, it is your turn to convince the community with WP:consensus (and not a WP:local consensus) that Africa-related articles are requiered to recognize Somaliland as a country on its own. Because it was not difficult to find the person that transformed this into this without a single discussion about it. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 18:07, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't see how I am departing significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views. Somaliland is functions in all aspects as an independent, sovereign state and is indeed treated de facto as a separate country, as shown by several countries accepting its passport and having representative offices in the self declared state (see List of diplomatic missions in Somaliland). Then is the fact that Ethiopia recently upgraded its consul-general in Somaliland to ambassador ([7], "7. Seid Mohamed") and during Somalia-Somaliland talks held in Djibouti in June 2020 ([8]) an official communique was released by the Djiboutian government referring to them both as countries ([9]): "Held a consultative summit meeting in Djibouti on June 14th 2020, in order to help the two leaders from Somalia and Somaliland to resume dialogue on the relationships between the two countries". When the governments of Kenya and Somaliland announced that consulates would be opened in each others territories (along with announcing direct flights and an agreement to cooperate in various fields) ([10]) Somalia officially cut all official ties with Kenya citing its "poor violations on Somalia’s sovereignty" ([11]).

The "international norm" does not matter since this is Wikipedia, not the UN, where we merely report what reliable sources tell us, which is that, whilst according to the Somali (and de jure) point of view Somaliland is part of Somalian territory, Somaliland is in fact a de facto independent state.

There is past Wikipedia precedence regarding states with a lack of recognition. For instance, in the Philippines article, the geographic boundary is described as such: "The Philippines is bounded by the West Philippine Sea to the west, the Philippine Sea to the east, and the Celebes Sea to the southwest, and shares maritime borders with Taiwan to the north, Japan to the northeast, Palau to the east and southeast, Indonesia to the south, Malaysia to the southwest, Vietnam to the west, and China to the northwest.". And in Mauritania the geographic boundary is described as such: It is bordered by the Atlantic Ocean to the west, Western Sahara to the north and northwest, Algeria to the northeast, Mali to the east and southeast, and Senegal to the southwest

Keep in mind that Taiwan is very much in the same situation as Somaliland, in that Chinese sovereignty over the territory is widely recognized yet it still, very much like Somaliland, contains representative offices representing foreign nations on its soil, and foreign nations interact with it directly (again like Somaliland). Therefore I don't see how a Taiwan approach can't be used for Somaliland given the very similar situations. Then is the fact that Somalia does not control large swaths of territory currently controlled by Al Shabaab, meaning Somalia can't effectively exercise its de jure sovereignty over Somaliland. Somaliland is claimed but not controlled by Somalia, that should be highlighted, and is inline with other WP articles that I have shown. The most neutral and helpful presentation for WP readership is to show both Somaliland's de facto independence and Somalia's de jure sovereignty of the self declared republic.

Also if you check the edit history, Shirshore himself was the one who was bold by removing the mention of Somaliland despite a cfn tag being attached to it explaining the entire situation ([12]). I reverted that, therefore Shirshore is the one who is actually in the discussion phase of BOLD. Gebagebo (talk) 00:37, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources commonly discuss Taiwan and Western Sahara in that way. They do not do the same for Somaliland. CMD (talk) 00:48, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I'd like to propose a compromise that hopefully satisfies all parties in this discussion. Since the efn tag doesn't seem to be enough judging by the responses, I'd argue for returning that part of the lead to how it used to be previously since I've found that to be the best solution.

A diff from 12 December 2019 states: "It is bordered by the disputed territory of Somaliland, which is claimed by Somalia, in the southeast, Ethiopia in the south and west, Eritrea in the north, and the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden in the east"

A diff from 12 May 2020 states: "It is bordered by Somalia (Somaliland) in the south, Ethiopia in the south and west, Eritrea in the north, and the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden in the east"

I would personally go for something along the lines of this: "It is bordered by Somalia through the disputed territory of Somaliland in the southeast, Ethiopia in the south and west, Eritrea in the north, and the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden in the east"

That way we'd be able to not only highlight that Somaliland is de jure part of and claimed by Somalia, but also that the territory itself is disputed between Somalia and Somaliland (which maintain de facto sovereignty). What are your thoughts? @Tbhotch: @Chipmunkdavis: @Shirshore: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gebagebo (talk • contribs)

The key problem is still the lack of recognition. You mentioned Taiwan above, but they have 13 diplomatic relations with sovereign states; you mentioned Western Sahara, but in itself, it is not a country but a region (it would be a different story if it was the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, even though it has 33 diplomatic relations). And even if you travel back to 2019, you can see that Somaliland is not mentioned, which means that someone added them without discussion (example 1, example 2, example 3). (CC) Tbhotch^™ 23:47, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

@Tbhotch: With Taiwan those are mostly relatively minor nations with little to no influence on global politics (examples include Paraguay, Eswatini, Haiti etc.). With major powers like the US, UK etc. these foreign relations are unofficial and those states are represented by representative offices, which is the case with Somaliland. The SADR was perhaps a bad example (that's what I meant, forgot Western Sahara itself is a region) so I'll leave it at that.

As a neutral source, Wikipedia is not bound by the UN or UN recognition. Somaliland exists whether the UN says it does or not. That's the difference between de facto (in fact) and de jure (by law). Somaliland is not a de jure sovereign state and we recognize that with the efn tag as well as the wording, but it is, indeed, as much of a de facto sovereign state as Somalia is (if anything Somaliland is more of a sovereign state de facto than Somalia, a failed state). Wikipedia also treats Somaliland as an unrecognized, but sovereign state (see List of sovereign states). That is the NPOV position that Wikipedia has taken. Therefore Somaliland should be mentioned whenever and wherever it is relevant.

Taking the view that Somaliland is not a separate de facto sovereign state as Shirshore has done due to a lack of international recognition is POV, and is non-neutral, in addition to contradicting Wikipedia's NPOV position on Somaliland. Gebagebo (talk) 20:42, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

But Paraguay, Eswatini, Haiti and etc. are sovereign nations recognized by all sovereign nations, by continental intergovernmental organizations and all are members of the United Nations. As irrelevant as they seem to you, they are legal independent entities. You are reaching the point where WP:IDHT is a problem. We get it, you support Somaliland as a nation ("Somaliland functions in all aspects as an independent, sovereign state") yet, it is not (and most likely won't be in the near future) an independent sovereign state, and even though you don't notice the oxymoron in "I am [not] departing significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views" when no one but you (and maybe Ue3lman, who randomly join the dispute to just randomly disappear, and the guys that I mentioned earlier and at least two of them were blocked as sockpuppets) want to mention Somaliland in articles that are not directly related to Somalian geopolitics, in nations that don't recognize Somaliland as an independent nation, as a country or as sovereign state. All you keep saying is WP:undue commentary favoring Somaliland, and that's a link I would highly recommend you to read before continue claiming that Wikipedia will be neutral when it takes position on the minority view that Somaliland should be mentioned "whenever and wherever it is relevant", i.e. outside Somalia-related articles and at the very top of the articles. Having read Undue, you would have read: "Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view". Minority view: "Somaliland functions in all aspects as an independent, sovereign state". Majority view: Somaliland is a territory inside Somalia. Somaliland, unlike SADR, is not member of any intergovernmental organization. Somaliland, unlike other limited-recognized states is not recognized by other limited-recognized states. These are the facts. This is the meaning of neutrality. Feel free to open a WP:RFC because you haven't been able to convince me that your addition is neutral and necessary. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 18:00, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

It's not that I support Somaliland, it's that I'm sticking to neutrality. Recognition is not a requirement for being an independent sovereign state de facto, that is the point I'm trying to get across (and which you're not getting). Like I mentioned before; as a neutral source, Wikipedia is not bound by the UN or any other supranational body and Somaliland exists whether the UN agrees or disagrees. Somaliland is a de facto sovereign state and Wikipedia recognizes that by listing it separately at List of sovereign states. In order to maintain NPOV, we add that Djibouti borders Somaliland (which is explicitly stated by the African Union as well as the European Asylum Support Office) but add a note as well as the appropriate wording in order to indicate that it is not a recognized state, although it is a sovereign state. Mentioning Somaliland in that capacity is not undue, especially given the fact that the self-declared territory quite literally borders Djibouti. If you disagree, you can take the matter up at List of sovereign states if you feel that Wikipedia should change its stance on the dispute (although I'd like to note that the discussion there has reached a hard-fought consensus on the issue). Wikipedia must remain neutral in all such matters.

Also, Somaliland functioning in many or all aspects as a de facto independent state isn't a minority view (a simple Google search reveals that), if anything it seems to be more of a majority view (from the BBC [13], European Asylum Support Office [14], African Union [15], University of Ostrava [16]).

Then is the fact that I'm pretty sure "Departing significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views" is more about what reliable sources say rather than the views of editors in a talk page. @Chipmunkdavis: Is that the case or am I mistaken? Just confirming. Gebagebo (talk) 23:38, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is not bound by the UN or any other supranational body", except that Wikipedia does, because Wikipedia describes disputes, not engages on them, nor starts them. The international consensus is to treat Somaliland as a state within Somalia, independent reliable sources report it as such, and Wikipedia registers that consensus. That's it. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 00:03, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

BTW this link is pointless, it doesn't add anything to this discussion. If I transform it into Ethiopia and Djibouti it transforms into the perfect example of how relevant is to mention Somaliland at Ethiopia and Djibouti (hint: "Somaliland" is mentioned 0 times). And I'm starting to get concerned about how you have started to attempt to transgress facts:

• "we add that Djibouti borders Somaliland which is explicitly stated by the African Union", the link is about the "AU Fact-Finding Mission to Somaliland", that is, it was written from the perspective of being in Somaliland and explaining from there the internal conflict. It is not a document written from the perspective of Djibouti. Somaliland is not a member of the AU anyway.
• The same happens with the EASO link [17][18], 0 mentions of Somaliland because it is irrelevant for the nations. And this is about an agency that is named "European Union Agency for Asylum". That is, an asylum agency that informs Europe why people from a territory named Somaliland ask to be accepted into their nations because that link's "target audience is caseworkers, COI researchers, policy makers, and decision making authorities." It is not authoritative to determine the international border of Djibouti.
• Ignoring WP:Other stuff, List of sovereign states is a Wikipedia page and Wikipedia is not a reliable source. The article explicitly explains why some territories are listed there and whatever consensus was reached there, it is locally accepted for that specific page and its purposes. In no way it is to be followed outside that page.

It doesn't matter how many links you provide (ignoring their reliability and/or how you are synthetizing their information), the result is the same: You being the only person attempting to add a non-sovereign state to the top of the pages of two sovereign states that have absolutely nothing to do with Somaliland beyond trading and that are merely acting as mediators, as if the articles of Geography of Djibouti and Geography of Ethiopia didn't exist. Once again, open an RFC as consensus is not built upon two or three people. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 00:43, 14 March 2022 (UTC) (CC) Tbhotch^™ 00:43, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

The WP:WEIGHT of reliable sources matters, as well as their context. We all know Somaliland exists and functions independently, but that is not the question here. There are certainly going to be specific sources discussing the Djibouti-Somaliland border, but the question is how reliable sources generally describe Djibouti's bordering countries. CMD (talk) 01:15, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 March 2022

Please correct the areas of each district. I have used a GIS software application to calculate the areas in square kilometers.

Caption text

District	Old Area	Corrected Area
Ali Sabieh	2,200	2,389
Arta	1,800	2,217
Dikhil	7,200	6,867
Djibouti	200	201
Obock	4,700	4,468
Tadjourah	7,100	6,850

Kairom13 (talk) 16:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. What you did is WP:OR. We need reliable sourcing for that. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:14, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Ok, then please remove the area values as they are wrong and are not cited by any sources, much less reliable ones. Kairom13 (talk) 17:21, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Religion

The religion section in Djibouti is wrong Djibouti is 98% Islam not 94% and 2% others. Can it please be corrected. Skyscapercity (talk) 17:26, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

You need to provide a source for that change. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 02:23, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

The source is provided here https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/muslim-countries.htm so can you change the religion section to 98%? Skyscapercity (talk) 00:54, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Added (CC) Tbhotch^™ 04:10, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Update Data's

Update the GDP data Titanx114 (talk) 09:14, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Export structure

I think the export graphic should be replaced with a more up-to-date one from the OEC, reflecting the activity of SIS. https://oec.world/en/profile/country/dji#yearly-trade — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tatiana.larina (talk • contribs) 11:07, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 July 2022

Can you not use "Djibouti City" and maybe use something else to distinguish the country and the city? Djibouti is just a normal city. 184.67.114.38 (talk) 20:14, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. What signifier and wording would you suggest be used? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:52, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Wrong official language order

The extended confirmed protection was caused by somalia somaliland dispute. The arabic language should be placed at the very top of foreign language official name list ahead of french language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2404:8000:1027:85F6:869:A8D8:24B0:CEC1 (talk) 05:55, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 March 2023

My request is to edit the orgin of the name Djibouti the French documented that the name "Djibouti" come from the indigenous people of Southern side of the country

Here is my source: https://books.google.ca/books?id=uN8jAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA203&dq=Djibouti+nom+plateau&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiCr_ik5-39AhWJFjQIHTVqAtcQ6AF6BAgHEAM#v=onepage&q=Djibouti%20nom%20plateau&f=false Jean753 (talk) 23:14, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: All the visible part of the old source says is « invented » Djibouti." M.Bitton (talk) 00:35, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Language order?

supposedly, it is arabic language that has the top of the level in terms of official language. Who someone puts french kanguage as top level in official language in djibouti? 2404:8000:1027:85F6:153D:916C:236C:BC4A (talk) 21:55, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 May 2023

Remove the extra “m” after “1990s”

The country emerged from a decade-long civil war at the end of the 1990smwith the waxwing slain (talk) 10:27, 2 May 2023 (UTC)