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October 30

is pro bono work tax deductible as "in kind"?

in kind Posner-Wiki57 (talk) 07:41, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Talk to a tax adviser, we can't help you. --Viennese Waltz 07:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It depends entirely on the highly specific local laws, as interpreted and applied in the constituencies where you live and do business. Consult a competent local tax advisor. Cullen328 (talk) 07:03, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Westminster Abbey - "we're full"

I've found several oblique references that suggest that in the late 18th century, Westminster Abbey was declared to be too crowded for any more large monumemts, which was why Nelson and Wellington had their funerals at St Paul's Cathedral. Can anybody pin this down please? Alansplodge (talk) 13:30, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Abbey Nelson's "burial there, rather than at the Abbey, was due to a decision taken by Parliament in 1795 that monuments to heroes should be erected in the largely undecorated cathedral rather than Westminster Abbey which was full of monuments. DuncanHill (talk) 18:12, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that DuncanHill. A couple of hours of Google-bashing suggests that before the 1790s, the Dean and Chapter of St Paul's had opposed large monuments in the church (although not in the crypt), but were finally pressured by Parliament into accepting memorials for Robert Faulknor the younger and Thomas Dundas. Westminster Abbey was indeed crammed with monuments, but in 1806 space was found for William Pitt the younger's statue, which had to be installed over a doorway because there was nowhere else for it to go. Alansplodge (talk) 15:18, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rockefeller Republican counterparts

Are there right-wing counterparts to Rockefeller Republicans who were economically right but socially liberal in other parts of the world? Donmust90 Donmust90 (talk) 16:17, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

George Harrison was famously very liberal, but very financially conservative. You could argue that he was liberal because he came from a liberal upbringing and he had a lot of religious influences that promoted charity. But, his financial conservative views were forced by realizing he was paying in excess of 90% income tax. So, in the end, he strongly supported charities, social programs, and the like. However, he was staunchly opposed to liberal progressive taxes. Of course, you can nitpick any example. Did he ever feel more conservative about a non-tax issue? Surely he did. Did he ever feel that more taxes were necessary to support programs he supported? Surely he did. Overall, he was very charitable and supported the more liberal politicians (especially if they let his transcendental meditation party cozy up to them). He was also very anti-progressive tax, writing a popular song about it: "Taxman." I feel it is as good an example as any for a person saying, "I am very liberal and believe in social programs to maintain society, but I'm not going to be overtaxed just because I have more money." 97.82.165.112 (talk) 17:13, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The basis of (US style) right-wing economics is “free market good, regulation bad;” “Business will self-regulate; consumers beware;” and / or, “Fxxx You, I got mine, Jack!” The basis of (US style) social liberalism is “We should help those who are less able;” “The better-off should pay more to help the less well-off;” and / or “Eat the rich!” It takes a special kind of mind to blend the two concepts. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 04:11, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What about "Tax the middle class to keep the sidewalks free from the begging poor but leave me, a job provider, alone"? --Lambiam 06:54, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mentioning George Harrison in the answer to a question about right wing political figures seems deeply unfair to me. Yes, he objected to the excessively confiscatory tax rates imposed on the very wealthy in the UK at that time, but that view was shared by countless other British pop stars and successful actors and entrepreneurs of that era. George Harrison was not a right winger. He was an exceptionally kind and compassionate person who went out of his way to help people in need. He was a liberal and a truly fine person. Cullen328 (talk) 07:21, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The ramifications of the tax regime at the time meant that some high earners (of which Harrison would have been one) sometimes had to pay more in tax in a particular year than they had actually earned. Some of this may have been due to less than scrupulous practices by their managers and accountants, but even without their being scammed, having from 1974 to pay up to 98% in taxes on income above a particular (admittedly high) threshold (see Taxation in the United Kingdom#Modern rules) seemed ultimately counterproductive. (It had reached 99.25% in WW2, but there was a war on). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 46.65.231.103 (talk) 17:47, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I used George Harrison as an example because he is very liberal. I could pick just about any rich celebrity from any other country, but how many of them were as vocal as Harrison was about taxes? The question is asking about Rockefeller Republicans, who were very liberal in most areas of politics, but conservative when it comes to taxation and spending. Stating that Harrison was liberal does not exclude him from sharing views with a group of politicians were also very liberal. Rockefeller, for who the term in coined, was so liberal in social views that his extensive social work in New York through the 50s and 60s, paired with limitations on taxation and spending, was a major factor in New York City going broke by the end of his term as Governor of the state, requiring a Federal bail-out by 1975. Briefly, the idea that Republicans are right wing and Democrats are left wing didn't solidify until the end of the 1960s. For a good 100 years after the Civil Rights Act of 1866, the two parties were in flux with a mix of liberal and conservative members. Coincidentally, it was the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that appears, in hindsight, to have finalized the transition. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 12:12, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep your greedy hands off my porkbarrel! —Tamfang (talk) 21:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Donmust90: The key examples I can think of off the top of my head would be Red Tories in Canada and One Nation Conservatives in the UK. I will try to think of others from a non-Westminster context, but I hope that helps a little bit. Bkissin (talk) 18:49, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Arguably (at least according to Progressive conservatism), the Free Democratic Party (Germany) would also be an example. Leans more Euro-Liberal (i.e. free market conservative) economically, while being socially liberal. Also look at the Moderates (Liberal Party of Australia) (internal faction within the party). Bkissin (talk) 18:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 1

To what secret did Bacon allude?

In Ligeia by Edgar Allen Poe we read "It might have been, too, that in these eyes of my beloved lay the secret to which Lord Verulam alludes". What is, or was, the secret? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 03:14, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is the secret to beauty that Bacon gave, "There is no exquisite beauty without some strangeness in the proportion." Abductive (reasoning) 04:34, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be maladroitly phrased. I think the narrator means the secret of specifically Ligeia's exquisite beauty, which he surmises to lay in her (disproportionally large) eyes. In that case, Bacon did not "allude" to the secret, but gave the key with which the narrator unlocks the secret. --Lambiam 05:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's what they say about Poe a lot, his contemporaries even nicknamed him "The Maladroit Phraser". Abductive (reasoning) 08:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all, yes that's clearly it. Poe had misquoted Bacon earlier, but forgot to tell us it was a secret. His prose is less than pane-like at best. DuncanHill (talk) 13:08, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Income/spending money in Northeastern US, c. 1887

Sources about Walt Whitman's lectures on Abraham Lincoln say that a $1 ticket would have been too expensive for the working class to afford. Can anyone find any stats that would help contextualize this, such as on average income/cost of living? Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 15:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A tiny bit of context is given here: The History Of What Things Cost In America: 1776 to Today. A pair of shoes cost a dollar and apparently one dollar wasn't too much for an opera ticket in San Fransisco, 1875, and it also amounted to a sizable percentage of a day's wages which ranged from "$1.60 per day (a fireman in Massachusetts) to $4.64 per day (a glassblower in New Jersey.)". Modocc (talk) 16:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, so maybe what the sources really should really say is that it was more than what people were willing to pay, rather than could... Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 17:54, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One may have enough liquid assets to pay for some luxury item, but spending one's money on such items means less is left for much more necessary things (shoes for the kids, medicines for one's mother, ...). If there was hardly enough for these to begin with, it is reasonable to say that one cannot afford the luxury item. In doing online research for Wikipedia I run all the time into paywalls. If I'd routinely pay for each, I'd spend more on online access than my income, so I say I can't afford to pay for paywalled websites. I could pay for a few websites, but what's the point; just a few will hardly make a difference for the research. Opera lovers today may not be able to afford $125 tickets, which may be comparable to spending one dollar on a ticket in 1875. (For a day labourer earning $2 per day and working 300 days a year, $1 is 1/600th of their annual income. 1/600th of a median annual income of $75,000 is $125.) --Lambiam 21:58, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Daily rates of wages in the Building Industry of New York City... from 1883 to 1903 says that in 1887, a bricklayer would earn $4 a day, while a labourer might only earn $2.50. I suspect that a labourer would have lived very close to absolute poverty and that very little of their salary would be disposable in those days. Alansplodge (talk) 12:32, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. I thought those were hourly wages for some reason, which in retrospect makes no sense. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:49, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In contrast, in 1887 at the Bijou Theatre in Boston, you could see an edited-down version of the The Mikado for 10 cents, even for the best seats in the house. [1] Alansplodge (talk) 15:11, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Opposite of infeudation

You're a great nobleman, so the king grants you a tract of land in a process called infeudation or feoffment. Years later, you rebel against your lord the king, so the king revokes that grant. What's this process called? Escheat seems to be relevant only if you're convicted or attainted of a felony, and it's specifically a common-law concept; I'm looking for a more general term. Nyttend (talk) 18:26, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"...you rebel against your lord the king..."! According to the Britannica here: "In the case of a tenant convicted of high treason, however, his land escheated directly to the crown, and the lord forfeited all rights he had in that tenant’s lands completely." In addition, a more general term is "forfeiture", such as with the Forfeiture Act 1870. Digging further back in time, I see that the Tenant-in-chief article uses the term "escheat". Also kings are and were known for abrogating their subjects' rights. Modocc (talk) 19:01, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 2

"balurda"– I can't find anything on it

I'm reading Smalltime by Russell Shorto. On one of the pages he says the poor in Italy when the northerners took over the country survived on something called balurda, a type of cornbread. However, when I google "balurda", I can't find anything on it. I can't find anything on it on the Italian Wikipeida either, the closest thing being La balorda by Ivan Della Mea. Any help is appreciated. Therapyisgood (talk) 07:19, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The word pops up in Bergamasque dialect#Samples of literary works in Bergamasque (in the last line quoted), but sadly no translation that I can see. It's unlikely to be actual cornbread, since maize for human consumption is a quite recent innovation in Europe. Alansplodge (talk) 12:49, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In Italy by the end of the 18th Century maize production outstripped wheat in many part of Italy. The period of time OP referred to would be after the Risorgimento, when the north began systematically stripping the south of wealth to fund modernisation and industrialisation. I think Norman Lewis has something to say about this in The Honoured Society: The Mafia Conspiracy Observed. DuncanHill (talk) 14:44, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I stand corrected; see pane di granturco and pizzata Calabrese. Alansplodge (talk) 14:57, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proserpina is the queen of the underworld, and the poem seems to be about terrible and infernal things and tremors and earthquakes, not about food items – I think teremòt is cognate to Italian terremoto. It looks to me as if the word balurda in the poem is an adjective modifying the noun cöcagna. Shorto's balurda may be a word that is local to Sicily. Sicilian is often considered distinct from standard Italian, for example on Wiktionary, with many words that have no recognizable Italian counterpart. --Lambiam 14:30, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it was Anthony Burgess who remarked that "there is no such language as Italian". DuncanHill (talk) 14:46, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The section Il pane ("Breads") in the article about the Sicilian cuisine on the Italian Wikipedia mentions that in the past bread became the main meal of poor families. This fits with Shorto's statement. The bread was made with semolina, which I imagine a US-based writer could confuse with medium-ground cornmeal. --Lambiam 14:49, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is a Spanish word balurdo (balurda in the feminine) meaning "mess", "of poor quality". DuncanHill (talk) 14:52, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

DuncanHill, this word was brought to South America by Italian immigrants, and does not exist in Iberian Spanish. --Soman (talk) 12:35, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Italian word for "the" is L'è. The Italian word for "earthquake" is terremoto. The Italian words for "he loves" are lui ama. I would guess that balurda is a verb in the present tense, third person singular. 2A00:23A8:4015:F501:ECF0:5FC:1553:EDF8 (talk) 16:24, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Italian definite articles are (masculine singular) il or lo, (feminine singular) la, (masculine plural) gli and (feminine plural) le. L'è means "is" in Romagnol and Venetian, so I think it is reasonable to assume it is a verb form in Bergamasque too. --Lambiam 04:45, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's also a French word balourd, which is possibly derived from the Italian balordo, and which means unrefined or clumsy. One can see that such a term could be applied to a sub-standard type of bread. Xuxl (talk) 16:59, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it is related to the Italian feminine adjective balorda, meaning "silly", "foolish". Balurda could reasonably be a dialectal variation of balorda. --87.10.49.73 (talk) 21:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Google Translate says balurda means "stupid". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:10, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 3

hotel museum upkeep

I know the TWA Hotel has a museum space. But I was wondering if monetary donations are accepted for the upkeep. (I tried contacting the hotel a couple of times. They haven't responded.) If yes, where can I send a cheque or money order to? Anyone know?2603:7000:8641:810E:65FA:4C03:F85D:185E (talk) 08:40, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's a commercial business, not a charity or nonprofit. Why would you want to send them a donation? If you really want to help them out financially, go stay there or buy some merch. --Viennese Waltz 08:46, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The hotel's web site says here that the museum is curated by the New-York Historical Society. They accept donations but I think you'd have to contact them and ask if it is appropriate and possible to donate in support of the specific museum at the hotel, which I don't even see mentioned on the society's web site. --142.112.221.156 (talk) 10:22, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 4

Stanley Hoffman's collaborationism

was Hoffman 1968 when the term collaboration was coined, or was it an organic addition to the language that he was simply the first to use in an academic journal? Double-checking what I think I know. Thanks in advance for any thoughts. Elinruby (talk) 03:49, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reportedly, the term collaborationism was used in an article in The Manila Post of 3 April 1946.^[2] --Lambiam 06:25, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

blink. Really now. Glad I asked. Elinruby (talk) 06:40, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A use from 1930: [3]. --Lambiam 06:42, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just realized that I said collaboration. You are right, I meant collaborationism. This will be a can of worms since nobody in this discussion had had that on their bingo card. Bravo on both those counts.

Maybe this needs to be reframed as an etymology question. Any further thoughts welcome from anyone who has time, and I guess I need to spend some happy time with a dictionary. To refine the question: is Hoffman's definition definitive with respect to world War II? Is it ever a synonym for collaboration? Elinruby (talk) 07:23, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, that's a different board, isn't it. Let me go ask over there as well. I originally asked over here because it seemed like political science; still also interested in any thoughts anyone may have. Elinruby (talk) 07:31, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OED defines collaborationism as "The practice of collaboration", it has only one citation, The Times 9 June 1943. "Marcel Déat.. outbidding Laval in the ardour of his collaborationism, continues to support.. the existing administration." DuncanHill (talk) 18:00, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

yeah, it's messy. Thanks for the OED definition; the link I found was paywalled. Miriam Webster gives the more restrictive academic definition. So it isn't restricted to French theorists, but on the other hand neither does it seem prevalent in the wider scope. I guess I could make a start by disambiguating it from enterprise software Elinruby (talk) 01:27, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ngram unsurprisingly spikes in the early 40s, just to save someone some time. Hits in Google Books are overwhelmingly but not exclusively about Vichy. Déat was unquestionably a collaborationist in either meaning of the word tho Elinruby (talk) 01:30, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Elinruby:, since I'm sure Hoffman was reading French sources, it's worth checking French references as well. My go-to site for definitions and etymology is CNRTL, which has entries for collaboration (1753), collaborateur (1755), collaborer (1830), and collaborationniste (1940); but doesn't have the -isme form. (Click the 'Etymologie' tab for details. Also, don't miss the 3-D dynamic word graph tool; try going to collaborer, select tab 'proxemie', then zoom, drag, and click.) The Dict. of the Academie has regex search: try searching for collab.* at their Advanced search page and it will get you all four related words (still no '-isme' form). Mathglot (talk) 01:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah the 18th century mentions. Thanks for the links, these get mentioned somewhere in one of the related articles. I am going to change the wording to say that Hoffman "defined it in 1968 as", but I am still interested in the etymology if anyone has thoughts. I actually found a use or two in French-speaking Belgium in World War 2, which actually makes sense in terms of German administrative units, and one for Japanese-occupied China that might be a metaphor like calling someone a Stalinist. I was thinking that this would be Russian via Marx and trade unions, but I guess not given '1755'.

Oh wait regex search ;)?;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elinruby (talk • contribs) 03:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is it illegal to eat in public during Ramadan in the UAE?

I found conflicting sources about Ramadan in the United Arab Emirates, e.g.:

Dubai's Department of Economy and Tourism: While there's no requirement for non-Muslims to avoid eating and drinking in public during the day, you may choose to do so out of respect for those fasting.
UAE gov: Non-Muslims do not have to fast in Ramadan. However, they are prohibited from eating, drinking and smoking in public during the fasting hours.

a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 15:30, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See UAE legal Q&A: Penalty for breaking law by eating in public which cites the applicable laws and fines or term of imprisonment. Alansplodge (talk) 17:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes but this article is from 2015. More recent sources seem to indicate that, at least in Dubai, it's not the case. For instance since 2021, people can eat in public in restaurants in Dubai (source). So it means that patrons have the right to eat in public. But I cannot find an official source confirming that the law (or its application?) has changed. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:12, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Canadian gov writes: In Abu Dhabi and Dubai during Ramadan, restaurants remain open, serving food as normal. So the ban on eating in public may only apply to other Emirates? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:44, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What became of Peter Gurney?

Our article on Michael Alexander says that he never knew what happened to his comrade Corporal Peter Gurney, presumably a victim of the Commando Order. Has anyone found out? DuncanHill (talk) 18:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Neither Alexander nor Gurney seemed to be mentioned in the only cited source for the article, The Last Escape. Alexander has The Privileged Nightmare (1954) republished as Hostages of Colditz (1973), but it looks like a 1999 interview for a BBC documentary and published in War Behind the Wire where he's quoted: "I’ve written to the marines headquarters asking for information about him and I haven’t had an answer. I don’t like to think quite honestly that he might have been disposed of at that time. It’s one of those things that slightly haunts me. I’ve just never heard from him." fiveby(zero) 00:15, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Corporal Henry Gordon Albert GURNEY, MiD, Royal Marines & Special Boat Service: POW, looks like he made it. ~~Anyone have Ancestry access to look at the document?~~ wplibrary link. fiveby(zero) 02:14, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The given names do not match. --Lambiam 17:59, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But reading the answers given in the questionnaire Fiveby linked leaves no doubt that he is the Gurney we seek. Perhaps Peter was a nickname? DuncanHill (talk) 18:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

...or Alexander misremembered the name of someone he probably most often addressed as corporal. Enjoyed reading something about this Peter Gurney tho. fiveby(zero) 18:26, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Or Alexander misremembered. If he inquired at the Marines' headquarters about a non-existing Peter Gurney, it might explain why he never found out what happened to Henry Gurney. --Lambiam 18:28, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly suspect an army nickname; "Peter Gurney" is a character mentioned in the well-known folk song Widecombe Fair. At school in the 1970s, we had a teacher, Mr Trinder, that everyone referred to as "Tommy Trinder" (when he wasn't listening), it was some years later that I found out that Tommy Trinder was actually a 1940s comedian. Alansplodge (talk) 19:18, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You lucky people! DuncanHill (talk) 20:04, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As a partial reference for that:

Someone called Black becomes “Cilla” (especially if they’re male); Barker is “Ronnie”; Gordon attracts “Flash”. Further examples include “Nobby” for anyone named Clark or Hall; “Buck” if your last name is Rogers, “Perry” if it’s Mason and either “Burt” or “Debbie” if it’s Reynolds. Not forgetting Dicky Bird, Chalky White, Smudge Smith, Dinger Bell, Swampy Marsh, Grassy Meadows, Snowy Winter and Happy Day.

The Weird World Of Military Nicknames Alansplodge (talk) 19:29, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 5

Throne of skulls

It's a common trope in fantasy fiction, but in real life did any historical figure build a thone from the dead skulls of his enemies? Did used to think Vlad the Impaler did, but apparently not. 146.200.127.248 (talk) 03:28, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It was Tamerlane (as he was traditionally known in English). Our Timur article doesn't mention it, but a Google search for "Tamerlane throne of skulls" turns up promising-looking links... AnonMoos (talk) 10:31, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A "throne of skulls" appears in Oahspe: A New Bible of 1882. Written by an American spiritualist dentist, he purported that it was writen by angels through his hand. The passage in question refers to a character called Baugh-Ghan-Ghad here.

For historical abuse of skulls (although not throne-building), see skull cup. Alansplodge (talk) 13:48, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sigillographie de l'Orient latin

Hey, everyone. Does anyone have the book Sigillographie de l'Orient latin by Gustave Schlumberger? It contains a seal of Abbess Ioveta, the only depiction of her known to me, at or near page 122. It is in public domain so we could upload it to the Commons and use it in our article. Ping me if you have it or know where to access it, please. Surtsicna (talk) 07:43, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Surtsicna, is this it? (the actual title page seems to differ from the title quoted by archive.org). Alansplodge (talk) 12:39, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Or this one? Alansplodge (talk) 12:41, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This has to be the one, since it has a section titled "Judith, fille du roi Baudouin II" on page 122.^[4] --Lambiam 17:02, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Page 122 contains the paragraph

130. — Bulle de plomb (?), jadis appendue à un acte de 1157, conservé aux Archives de l’Ordre de l’Hôpital, à Malte, par lequel Judith concédait une vigne à l’Hôpital en échange d’une dîme sur le casal de Béthanie. Cette bulle ne nous est connue que par une reproduction de Paoli (pl. II, n^o 20).^[5]

I don't see an image. "Paoli" must refer to Sebastiano Paoli, so one of the latter's works contains a reproduction of the bulla. --Lambiam 17:32, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Found it: Plate II, nr. 20 in Codice diplomatico del sacro militare ordine Gerosolimitano oggi di Malta, an image of a bulla inscribed on the obverse ABBATISSA JUDITTA. --Lambiam 17:43, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alansplodge and Lambiam: you are fantastic. Thank you! This is the exact reason why we have, and should continue to have, reference desks. This will be a major addition to the article about Ioveta, which I expanded today. Surtsicna (talk) 18:34, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Surtsicna:, just for future reference, if you're looking for a specific reference, often the best place to ask is at WP:RX. Best, Mathglot (talk) 01:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Palestinian proclamation of independence

Why did the State of Palestine proclaim independence so late, only in 1988, 41 years after the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (and formed the Palestine Liberation Organization only in 1964)? My superficial understanding is that Palestinian nationalism has been eclypsed by sort of Pan-Arabism of neighboring countries during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and later wars with Israel. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 09:43, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

During most of 1948, a large number of Arabs in the British Mandate territory of Palestine assumed that all or most of Palestine would naturally be annexed by whichever of the Arab states whose invading army was most militarily successful in destroying Israel, and many of them were not too upset by the idea (it could be considered a step toward pan-Arab unification). Then until 1988, when Jordan renounced any authority over the West Bank, such a declaration would have been considered hostile to Jordan. The declaration of Independence (Nov. 15) followed directly after the Jordanian renunciation (July 31). AnonMoos (talk) 10:09, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. The PLO was basically created by Nasser at a summit where Arab leaders were convened to plot and scheme about stealing Israel's water. The Wikipedia article is War over Water (Jordan River) (though I don't think I've heard that name before). Grassroots Palestinians had little or nothing to do with the PLO's creation -- it was more an attempt to dethrone Hajj Amin al-Husseini as the de facto Palestinian leader, while Egypt recognized that its former All-Palestine Government concept was definitely defunct, and would not be revived in its previous form... 10:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Not directly related to the original question, but the vast majority of Palestinians also had little or nothing to do with the creation of Hamas. Hamas would never have come to power in Gaza but for the incompetence and corruption of the Fatah administration. The only reason the people responded to the promises of Hamas of a clean administration was that they were thoroughly fed up with Fatah. --Lambiam 17:54, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All-Palestine Government (a client state of Egypt effectively having some control over the Gaza Strip) says (some format by me):

The All-Palestine National Council was convened in Gaza on 30 September 1948 under the chairmanship of Amin al-Husayni. The council passed a series of resolutions culminating on 1 October 1948 with a declaration of independence over the whole of Palestine, with Jerusalem as its capital.[11] Although the new government claimed jurisdiction over the whole of Palestine, it had no administration, no civil service, no money, and no real army of its own. It formally adopted the Flag of the Arab Revolt that had been used by Arab nationalists since 1917 and revived the Holy War Army with the declared aim of liberating Palestine.

--Error (talk) 01:47, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Zvi Elpeleg gives a long answer in Why Was 'Independent Palestine' Never Created in 1948?

--Error (talk) 02:27, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 6

Teaching children things with certain terminology

Suppose a book teaches children about star colors with these words:

Cool stars are red. Warmer stars, like the sun, are yellow. Hot stars are white. Very hot stars are blue.

Do you think it is obvious that this does not mean that red stars are cool in the human-friendly sense (that is, like a nice autumn day)?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:57, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Georgia guy not unless the children have already been told that all stars are face-meltingly hot, no. -- asilvering (talk) 01:22, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, not obvious. Children (people) will learn based on personal experience that terms expressed on a bivalent scale are relative: big vs. small for a person, a car, or a tree are not the same; close vs. far for a living room chair, a building, or a landscape feature; fast vs. slow, and so on. When something is outside their personal experience, they have to learn about it indirectly, and since they won't have any personal experience with star temperature, they won't have any framework in which to estimate what a "cool star" might be like, unless it is explained to them or they learn on their own. Adults are no different, and if they run into familiar relative terms in a field with which they are unfamiliar, they won't know, either. Is a cold night on Venus closer to -290°F or 725°F? In the end, it's not really about children vs. adults, but about humans who have or haven't learned about something about which they have no personal experience. Mathglot (talk) 03:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If one single line tells about cool and hot stars, it will be obvious that those stars are cool or hot relative to other stars. And any decent childrens book on astronomy that tells about colours of stars in one chapter, will have mentioned in an ealier chapter that all stars are hot (thousands or tenthousands of kelvins). Children eager to learn will read such a book from start to end and won't be mistaken. Adults are more likely to be fooled by a statement like this. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:05, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that replacing "cool" with "cooler" would reduce the potential for misunderstanding. I largely agree with what PiusImpavidus wrote above, but some children may have been sick or playing hooky when the earlier chapter was taught. Cullen328 (talk) 09:15, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2066 and all that

I notice that the 1000th anniversary of the Battle of Hastings is coming up in 2066, fairly soon on the scale of this thing. Are there likely to be any celebrations, protests, memorials, or anything like that? Assuming the world is still around, of course. And, would "From the Channel to the ocean, put the Normans back in motion!" be ok as a protest chant? Or maybe the Saxons instead of the Normans, depending. Thanks for any wisdom. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:D2BC (talk) 03:21, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As it says at the top of this and every other Reference desk, "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." If we did, I would answer that it is impossible to say what social and political movements might have arisen in 43 years from now, and it is not totally impossible that one might arise that recreates and exploits false anti-Norman sentiments, just as the Nazis exploited a (fictional) "Aryan" identity in the 1930s. A science fiction story or novel might be written along such lines.

I say 'false' sentiment because Normans and 'Saxons' (actually including Angles, Jutes, Frisians and Franks), not to mention the later 'Danes', have long been throughly intermingled and intermarried, so virtually no-one in Britain in 2023 can validly identify as significantly one over another, although of course family names have persisted. Celts are a little more distinct, but only in regions – I suspect the majority of people in England with originally Scots/Welsh/Irish surnames are as much English as Celtic, if not more so.

Given human propensity for anniversaries and celebrations, it seems to me likely that there will be commemorations in 2066. From today's perspectives, I would be astonished (were I to live that long) if there were to be any 'anti-Norman' representations. I think it more likely that climate change will have collapsed global civilisation, or AIs will have brought about The Singularity by then.

However, we don't, so the above is all worthless (not to mention unreferenced) and probably someone will blank or collapse it shortly. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.5.208 (talk) 04:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

great answer Elinruby (talk) 06:52, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Who cares about the Battle of Hastings? Britain to the Britons! --Lambiam 13:46, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(This is OP) if there is published commentary on the topic then that's fine, but anyway stop worrying. The question is partly about how present-day UK inhabitants feel about the Norman conquest. Here in the US we used to celebrate Columbus day but more recently there has been some reconsideration and a move to rename the holiday "Indigenous People's Day". The Battle of Hastings article doesn't mention anything similar which left me wondering. Thanks. 2602:243:2007:9330:2117:6AE3:8B4F:8059 (talk) 09:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect the British perspective is different because the arrival of the Normans didn't herald a genocide. 91.194.221.225 (talk) 11:05, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. The British people who are upset about the Norman conquest are mostly white nationalists. -- asilvering (talk) 12:10, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See Harrying of the North. Not a genocide by most definitions, but brutal. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:13, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Depends a bit upon definitions. Do the northern English count as a "genus"? Is 75% killed or displaced a "-cide"? This one was always a good debate in school debating societies, mainly because there is no clear answer! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 12:25, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In 1966, the 900th anniversary was celebrated by the issue of commemorative stamps, a service at Battle Abbey and a banquet at Hastings. As far as I can tell, the Royal Family was not involved. There was a bit of a diplomatic flurry about whether President Charles de Gaulle should be invited (we were having a row with them about the French withdrawal from the NATO command structure) and it was thought that he might make rude remarks. In the end, the invitation went to Prince Jean de Broglie, who was Secrétaire d'État aux Affaires étrangères (foreign secretary) and happily came from Normandy. See Commemorating 1066 in 1966, a diplomatic dilemma?

Since then, the accepted historical narrative has changed somewhat: up to the 1960s, the Norman Conquest was primarily viewed as the displacement of the backward Anglo-Saxons by the civilised Normans, whereas recent scholarship has shown pre-Conquest England to be a well-ordered, prosperous and cultured society, which is precisely why William wanted to get his hands on it. Then there is the question of Norman expansion into Wales, Ireland and Scotland, which are still issues today. Alansplodge (talk) 13:12, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Despite WP:CRYSTAL, I will venture to guess that the milleniversary will be taken seriously in places near the point of arrival. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 13:38, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Quite possible that Ms Suella Braverman, the Home Secretary, will return Normans to the Normandy, an underpopulated area of the southern island Eurasia. And why not move Anglo-Saxon invaders to their homeland? For the resident Saxe-Coburg-Gothas there may be some exemption... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:32, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]