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October 23

House of Commons, 1808

The House of Commons - The Microcosm of London (1808-1811)

Greetings, Keepers of the Flame! I came across this exquisite pic (by Augustus Charles Pugin (architectural details), figures by Thomas Rowlandson) of the old HoC in St Stephen's Chapel, and wondered if anyone might be able to identify any of the politicians depicted, to improve its description on Commons (no relation). This would seem to be during the minority Pittite Tory Second Ministry (March 1807 – October 1809) of William Cavendish-Bentinck, 3rd Duke of Portland, probably the standing figure.

The Speaker would be Charles Abbot, 1st Baron Colchester, looking more like this pic: File:Speaker Abbot after James Northcote.jpg. Other possible figures on the Government benches could be:

Would the opposition benches be led by William Grenville, 1st Baron Grenville? And who might the youthful figures at the lower right be?

As far as the architecture is concerned, is this Wren's work? Cheers, MinorProphet (talk) 13:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MinorProphet - mostly Wren's - see St Stephen's Chapel for details. Alansplodge (talk) 12:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As it's the House of Commons then it won't include members of the House of Lords, eg Portland, Eldon, Camden, etc. But watch out for Irish peers, who could be MPs. DuncanHill (talk) 17:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So, none of the above, then.[1] I note with joy that Archive.org is back up, for the time being anyway.[2] MinorProphet (talk) 11:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Castlereagh and Canning were in the Commons. DuncanHill (talk) 11:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well spotted - so it could be Castlereagh standing. A little digging shows that the clerk (centre table) seems to be John Ley, Deputy clerk.[3]. MinorProphet (talk) 14:35, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Original Latin text of a subpoena

The word subpoena is from the opening words of the writ. I am trying to track down the original Latin text of a subpoena which begins "Sub pœna [...]" so I can add it to the Wiktionary entry. So far I've had no success. Can anyone provide a reference? Thanks. — Sgconlaw (talk) 17:25, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is not hard to fine texts issuing commands sub pena,[4][5][6] but not as the opening words; the typical format is that so-and-so must do this or that sub pena of forfeiture, a fine, or some other unpleasantries.  --Lambiam 21:11, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, @Lambiam: well, various dictionaries claim that the English word is derived from the first words of the writ in Latin, so I thought it is worth trying to track down the actual wording of that specific writ which would be one summoning a defendant to the Court of Chancery to answer a plaintiff's suit (the original sense), or one summoning a witness to testify in a trial. — Sgconlaw (talk) 22:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"From the opening words" does not necessarily imply "the first two words": that they are from the opening sentence would suffice (I suggest). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 07:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Latin-derived law terms of art often are the beginning words of formulaic documents, but in this case I doubt that these dictionaries are correct. Compare the formulation "the Name of it proceeds from the Words therein" in a Law dictionary from 1750.[7]  --Lambiam 09:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Lambiam: I take the point that the words sub poena may not have been the first two words of the writ, but could well have been somewhere in the opening section. That’s why I feel it would be good to try to see what the actual Latin wording was. One would think that it should be fairly straightforward to retrieve some samples, but surprisingly it’s not! — Sgconlaw (talk) 10:23, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had an interesting hunt for eg pix or transcriptions of documents, but turned up nothing substantial. This paper discusses (among other things) the legality of subpoenas issued by Chancery vs. common law, but has no specific examples. A note refers to "Treatise on the Subpoena", Ch. IV in Hargrave's Law Tracts 348 [pdf 423] (1786) but with no result. (MS letters included at the start of the high-resolution scan from the BM indicate this may have been Hargrave's own copy.) From England Chancery Court Records: "Proceedings consist of the following documents: ... Writ of Subpoena ordering the defendant to appear in court. Not a lot of these have survived." Although there was a lot of Latin phraseology involved, would they not have been in English, anyway? MinorProphet (talk) 13:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll bet those Court of Chancery documents were destroyed in the Burning of Parliament in 1834. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Two examples of the use in subpoena writs in 14th-century Chancery cases: ... Et hoc sub pena centum librarum nullatenus omittas ...[8][9].
(Alternative links: [10], [11].)  --Lambiam 07:58, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, £100 fine in 1388 - that's fairly steep: not quite yer average king's ransom."In 2023, the relative value of £100 0s 0d from 1388 ranges from £92,360.00 to £67,680,000.00"[12] (Another alternative for the first link,[13] seems to work: with facing pages in a pdf reader it's most impressive.) 'Egethoyn', whither Dane was bound, appears to be Egerton, Kent: would our article benefit from this recondite snippet of info...? It's not exactly encyclopedic. Might the aggressor have been an ancestor of the artist? MinorProphet (talk) 20:45, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 26

Swimming the English Channel is a list of notable swimmers, plus details on a few specific swims. However, nothing's said about the legal/diplomatic aspects; from an international border perspective, how does swimming the Channel work? Must the successful swimmer present himself to the destination country's customs officials as soon as possible? I'm left wondering if perhaps this accomplishment is rare enough, and its attempts heavily publicised enough, that the customs authorities tend to make special allowances for it, as was done for Lynne Cox when she swam from the US to the Soviet Union (the Diomede Islands) during the Cold War. Nyttend (talk) 03:59, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Same as visitors arriving by boat. Even the first (failed) attempt with no artificial aid in 1872 had a support boat.
Sleigh (talk) 04:50, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See https://www.channelswimmingassociation.com/swim-advice/administration-of-swims Nanonic (talk) 11:59, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"If you intend to enter France instead of returning to England, you will need to enter as a normal visitor and comply with all the usual regulations (AND inform the CSA and your pilot well in advance that this is your plan).
You are permitted to land on the Beach and then return to your Escort Boat for the journey back to England .....but please note that all Swimmers and Passengers should carry their Passport (and any Visa, if appropriate) on the Escort Boat in case they are requested by the relevant Authorities to provide Proof of Identity either before, during, or after the Swim.
Be aware that escort boats can be boarded and occasionally are boarded." Nanonic (talk) 12:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What a disgrace.
Is this what we defeated the Prussians for?
I mean, the Russians?
Does this include all arrivals to Northern France by water, or only those who weren't cut down by the Krauts' concentrated fire?
Al. M. G. 2004 (talk) 15:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What car is that?

I wonder what car they are standing in front of in this picture:

Could someone identify it?

(Other automobiles in the picture are more easily dentified, probably because they are more common vehicles.)

Ove Raul (talk) 08:47, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

fiat coupe 850? 119.17.158.183 (talk) 10:54, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Already in the categories on the image: [14] Fiat 850 Coupé Andy Dingley (talk) 11:29, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. Thank you! Ove Raul (talk) 16:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 27

Turquoise cheese and margarine

In The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (video game), there is a part which goes:

"The barman gives you a cheese sandwich. The bread is like the stuff that stereos come packed in, the cheese would be great for rubbing out spelling mistakes, and the margarine and pickle have performed an unedifying chemical reaction to produce something that shouldn't be, but is, turquoise. Since it is clearly unfit for human consumption, you are grateful to be charged only a pound for it."

I remember the turquoise thing from when I was a kid in the 1980s, so I can attest that it wasn't caused by mould, nor by the margarine being dyed. But what was it? I haven't seen it for decades, thankfully. Marnanel (talk) 17:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really sure what he's talking about (I was a young adult in Britain in the 1980s), but for the benefit of non-Britons, the "pickle" in question is Branston pickle or one of its imitators. Alansplodge (talk) 12:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps a reaction with garlic? [15], [16] --136.56.165.118 (talk) 14:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good find, but there's no garlic in Branston pickle (I just looked at my jar). Alansplodge (talk) 19:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But! The almost original recipe Branston pickle does contain garlic, according to food.com.  Card Zero  (talk) 09:04, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wonderful. Thank you all! Marnanel (talk) 15:38, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 28

Did women having to wear skirts have anything to do with menstruation?

As in, before menstruation products became good and accessible, seems like pants would have been more prone to blood going through and been visible? Was it more of a menstruation taboo/norm thing than a blind sexism thing?

Couldn't find anything about this on the page Skirt nor the page Culture and menstruation. Wallby (talk) 07:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More importantly, urinating. Abductive (reasoning) 10:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe that explains kilts. <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 10:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I imagine it was originally more to do with preserving women's modesty, until hemlines shortened in the 20th century having the opposite effect. Note that today, most Orthodox Jewish women do not wear trousers for reasons of modesty. Alansplodge (talk) 12:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article Trousers as women's clothing may be of interest: menstruation is nowhere mentioned. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 12:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't the real question why men started to wear trousers? In ancient times, weren't robes and such standard dress for all? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Khajidha -- In ancient times, trousers were worn mainly by peoples who had a way of life which relied intensively on horse-riding. In the eyes of the Greeks and Romans, such peoples were barbarians, so that tunics and togas were considered civilized wear, as opposed to barbaric trousers. As barbarian tribes increasingly impinged on civilized zones of both the Roman and Persian empires, trousers became worn by cavalry soldiers, then more widely in societies. But well into the European middle ages, upper-class males or males with certain special statuses (such as priests), still often wore robes. Among ordinary people, the hemlines of men's tunics were often higher than those of women, but it wasn't until the roughly the 1400s that some men commonly exposed most of their legs (encased in leggings or "hose") in a way that would have been considered indecent if done by a woman. From then on, the trousers for men vs. dresses for women dichotomy developed, but male priests, males involved in formal academic ceremonies, and royals at coronation etc. ceremonies still sometimes wear robes today... AnonMoos (talk) 14:37, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Recurrent experimenting of meditative states and dancing shadows sessions in the obscurity of the dark backroom seem to have teached many an Emperor's adviser's ancestors that Truth that the most impressive allure which could be held - without having to appear mounted - was getting out of the shades with the same silhouette as the mountaineer out of the forest on a foggy Sunday Morning ( undocumented ). --Askedonty (talk) 20:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC) [reply]
Ötzi the Iceman, 5300 before present, in his belongings had a rain cloak made of woven grass (see: esparto). Fully clothed with the cloak on he would have looked like a greyish bird of prey standing, only with bizarre appendices (his weapons), as seen from a distance. During the course of the two following millenia those with the same trade and skills will have had grass replaced with wool, much lighter tanned leather than previously, and other kinds of fabrics. This all only giving more dynamics in their appearance.
The lightest and longest (wikt:long#Adjective 13.) of such cloaks so had to become capes. They had to be seen sometimes floating in the wind.
There come the dancing shadows, only the heathstone was in an other place so that was the solitary flame of a small lamp that the spirituality minded was studying. Now one competing posture could be devised. A dynamic move leading upwards instead of more systematically downwards. And so, that would be the speaker who would be impersonating wind all by himself. That would not be in a place where you would have found necessary to cover your legs, otherwise than so. Sandals suffice. --Askedonty (talk) 21:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC) [reply]
The sarong is popular in tropical climes, perhaps in response to superficial fungal infections such as thrush. Doug butler (talk) 21:25, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Israel: Matriculation rate by religion

According to the most recent data, what's the % of people who have successfully passed Israel's high school matriculation examination among the population of the 18yo age group (not only among the students who sat for the exam)? (out of all How does this differ among religious groups? I found different numbers:

  • 2019 ToI: "Fully 70.9% of Christian high schoolers achieve college-entry matriculation grades, slightly higher than Jews (70.6%), and higher still than Druze (63.7%) and Muslims (45.2%)."
  • 2022 INN: "91.3% of Druze gain matriculation certificate compared to just 26.2 percent of haredi students."
  • Druze_in_Israel#Educational_prospects: "According to the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics census in 2020, 79.9% of Druze in Israel were entitled to a matriculation certificate, which was higher than the number of Muslims (60.3%), but was lower than the Christians (83.6%) and Jews (80.2%) with a matriculation certificate."
  • Christianity_in_Israel#High_school_and_matriculation_exams: "In 2016 Arab Christians had the highest rates of success at matriculation examinations, namely 73.9%, both in comparison to Muslim and Druze Israelis (41% and 51.9% respectively), and to the students from the different branches of the Hebrew (majority Jewish) education system considered as one group (55.1%)."

a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All kinds of things come to mind. The en.wiki and he.wiki don't say if you can take or retake the exam when you are, say, 19. The figures might be for all people, all Israeli citizens, all students (including or not dropouts), or just all students who got a high school completion diploma (perhaps just a snapshot collected in a particular year by calling around to the high schools). Abductive (reasoning) 10:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Do we have the latest official data somewhere? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
chief,
don't you answer your own question, when you give statistics from different years?
census in 2020' ... 'in 2016' ... 2019 and 2022 second-order sources as well, chief,
what percentage of israeli high-schoolers graduate high school (because the English article mentions a diploma, which is issued separately, simply for completion of twelve years of study, in the Israeli system)
compare this with the total population of this age cohort behind the allenby line, or what-have-you, and the percentage attaining bagrut, then you will have your answer
Al. M. G. 2004 (talk) 15:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ramsese II colossus

You used to have images of Ramsesii colossus and how it was displayed. I cannot find the page and I looked all 75.99.255.115 (talk) 19:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Try Category:Ramses II colossal statue in Memphis over on Wikimedia Commons. Alansplodge (talk) 19:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See also Statue of Ramesses II and Ramesses II § Building projects and monuments.  --Lambiam 11:09, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Longest recorded flight

What was the longest flight in world history? I'm strictly interested in duration, regardless of manned/unmanned status, refuelling, distance flown, etc.: the only limitation is that I'm not interested in spacecraft. Almost everything I find on Google is related to the longest scheduled airline flights. Flight endurance record addresses the question, but it bears {{Incomplete list}}, and all of its top-duration flights are small piston-engined or experimental solar-powered aircraft. The source for the longest one of all, [17], merely speaks of it as the "world endurance record in a propeller-driven airplane", so I'm further questioning whether there might be something longer, e.g. if a major country's military wanted to keep an important aircraft aloft at all times for a while. Nyttend (talk) 19:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Power Flite (45 hours and 19 minutes) might be of interest. Alansplodge (talk) 19:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Rutan Voyager flew around the world in 216 hours without refueling, stopping, or exiting the atmosphere. --Amble (talk) 20:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Breitling Orbiter flew around the world in 478 hours. Despite the name, it was a balloon, not a spacecraft. --Amble (talk) 20:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Airbus Zephyr S is an unmanned aircraft that flew continuously for 64 days. --Amble (talk) 20:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The longest item on the list I found, a Cessna 172, flew a little longer than the Airbus Zephyr. Nyttend (talk) 21:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A Google Loon flew for 312 days in 2019-2020 [18]. —Amble (talk) 03:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 29

King of Albania: unfulfilled promises

From King of Albania:

While the medieval Kingdom of Albania was a monarchy, it did not encompass the entirety of modern Albania. Although discontent among Albanian nobles emerged by 1282 due to the Angevin king's unfulfilled promises, the kingdom did not end at that time.

What is meant by “unfulfilled promises?” The article provides no citation nor does it elaborate any further in the body. ―Howard • 🌽33 07:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Who puts a conjunction at the beginning of an introduction? That's horrible. Well, I restored the word "Angevin" from the first sentence, which was removed two edits ago by an IP editor without explanation, and now you have a bit more context. I think you're supposed to read the article Regnum Albaniæ (good luck typing that), AKA Kingdom of Albania (medieval), where we read (buried mid-paragraph halfway down the second section!) Charles signed a treaty with them and was proclaimed King of Albania "by common consent of the bishops, counts, barons, soldiers and citizens" promising to protect them and to honor the privileges they had from Byzantine Empire. Then further on, Charles of Anjou imposed a military rule on Kingdom of Albania. The autonomy and privileges promised in the treaty were "de facto" abolished and new taxes were imposed. Lands were confiscated in favor of Anjou nobles and Albanian nobles were excluded from their governmental tasks. In an attempt to enforce his rule and local loyalty, Charles I, took as hostages the sons of local noblemen. This created a general discontent ... did it really, you surprise me. Anyway everything about an article whose introductory sentences require close reading of another article for context is terrible. Somebody who isn't me should definitely fix this.  Card Zero  (talk) 08:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, I am satisfied with this answer. ―Howard • 🌽33 08:37, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Contingent Elections in the US House of Representatives

I have been trying to determine how Trump might interfere with the election, and it seems clear that he is aiming for a contingent election in the House of Representatives. This would occur if neither candidate received 270 or more electoral votes. I assume that the procedure would be to stall or prevent the certificates of the electors to be sent to Congress. I am a little uncertain on how certificates could be blocked or stalled from the states, and I have received conflicting answers. How could this occur, and is there any legal remedy to force certificates to be sent from the slate of electors? 2600:8807:C306:A200:48E:DBF5:EC65:9227 (talk) 01:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Improvement Act of 2022 was passed to avoid some of these scenarios. Under the US Constitution, the state legislatures have ultimate authority over the electoral college votes of each state, but if legislators made last-minute procedural changes AFTER an election whose result they didn't like, that would be very problematic (the Constitution also forbids "ex post facto laws"... AnonMoos (talk) 02:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am afraid there is little (other than the threat of imprisonment) stopping a state's governor from certifying a different slate of electors than those actually elected. Another scary scenario is that the chaos in a state is so overwhelming that no one has any certainty about the winner when December 17 arrives, so it is unknown who the electors are that should meet that day.  --Lambiam 12:47, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
yes, there is little, other than his own convictions, his loyalty to the Republic, to stop him, although, such compunctions are marred by the constant fearmongering of legacy media about the 'fascist' trump, the 'threat' to the democratic system, which, as it would seem to any observer without the trained eyes of NYT columnists, who refer to Sumy as a village, who raise alarm over Chinese 'pillers' on the Nepalese border, who, who, it's incredible, you know,
I am sure that plenty of happy accidents, organized by our dear friends in Langley, would ensue, precluding any such eventuality
but you shouldn't worry, because you know that we will carry in the states which Howard Dean famously enumerated, and in yet more, such that even before the sun has descended beyond the Aleutians no contention will remain 130.74.59.162 (talk) 15:03, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't know this. You evidently possess a secret source of information to which I have no access.  --Lambiam 17:45, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Mississippi IP's secret source is probably QAnon. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My sources are Nate Silver, Allan Lichtman, the Times, and the Post 130.74.59.32 (talk) 22:17, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And QAnon. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
bless your heart 130.74.59.32 (talk) 22:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
you see, it's the most beautiful thing.
stunning, tremendous.
the whole country has shifted to the right 130.74.58.174 (talk) 13:14, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The question assumes facts not in evidence. Why do you think Trump is aiming to send the election into the House? I wouldn't be surprised if that's a backup plan somewhere in his group, but at the moment he seems to have at least a fair shot at just winning the Electoral College outright, which seems much more straightforward and less fraught. --Trovatore (talk) 22:54, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you,
setting aside all sectional contentions, I hope that it will be for the best,
and that the general tariffs will not exceed the promised figure of two hundred per cent,
a rude awakening and sharp adjustment, necessary for the survival of our Country and for final victory, after decades of the exercise of the establishment of great hubris in faith in the 'end of history', and even in 'nearshoring' to such locales as Indonesia and the Philippines in the face of looming global war, the submarine and hypersonic menace, war assuming the character of a game with perfect knowledge, etc., etc.
Two hundred percent! A thousand percent import duty! A wall in front of the First Island Chain, up from the seabed! The bill delivered to Zhongnanhai!
A truce in Ukraine for victory in the Far East, because Russia is an obstacle to China,
and we are contending ultimately with the Chinese ...
Not even radical life extension, not even biological immortality can bring about the End of History, although, one hopes that Fukuyama will see this borne out 130.74.59.32 (talk) 130.74.59.32 (talk) 23:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You sound like a looney. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am a stable genius. 130.74.59.29 (talk) 03:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mister Ed!?  Card Zero  (talk) 08:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Welp… This thread didn’t age well, did it? No need for a “plan B” when “plan A” (win the election outright) works. Blueboar (talk) 13:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October 30

Is ביתדוד a partial reconstruction in the Tel Dan stele?

This subtler one still seems to have light colorant...
I haven't seen another inscription where they color in letters for legibility...
...Other than in copies like this Siloam inscription reproduction

I thought I'd read the w was an inferred and reconstructed letter in bitdwd but that's not mentioned on its page. I may be mistaken. What was the first paper to include the Davidic conclusion? Are the images in the Wikimedia category reproductions? The text is inscribed with unusual clarity, including the pertinent.

Temerarius (talk) 20:25, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say the 2nd image is a photo from a museum. I don't think the highlighting looks like it was added by the user, it looks like it was a photo of a photo from a different museum exhibit than the one in the first photo. Andre🚐 20:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you're thinking of the Mesha Stele, which has also been claimed to refer to the House of David? In that case some of the letters are damaged and have to be reconstructed. --Amble (talk) 21:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Amble, thank you! I think that's exactly how my memory went wrong.
Temerarius (talk) 22:25, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]


November 1

Has George Will endorsed anyone in the coming U.S. presidential election?

As I was saying: Does anyone know of an endorsement by George Will in the coming U.S. presidential election? Did he say explicitly that he's not endorsing anyone? 178.51.16.158 (talk) 01:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Harris.[19] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:30, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"In September 2024, Will announced that he would vote for Kamala Harris in the 2024 United States presidential election." This statement was added to our article on George Will on September 17. Then still somewhat hidden deep down in the article, this information was added to its lead section the next day.  --Lambiam 07:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Worth checking the article first, hunh? I'll have to keep reminding myself! 178.51.16.158 (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How do companies spin off subsidiaries of the parent company?

How do companies spin off subsidiaries of the parent company? What is the process of spinning off subsidiaries? Do the parent company sell shares of the spin off company to its shareholders WJetChao (talk) 03:15, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The processes of spinning-off a subsidiary are: first, the parent company groups the line of business to form a subsidiary; second, the parent company transfers the relevant assets to the newly formed subsidiary. Third, the parent company distributes the newly formed subsidiary’s shares to existing shareholders on a pro rata basis as a special dividend. Finally, the newly formed subsidiary is listed separately as an independent company and probably it will also issue and sell shares to the public (the process is called initial public offering or IPO). Stanleykswong (talk) 08:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Searching for a PD image of the seal of Patriarch Amalric

I am a bit frustrated. In a snippet view of Sigillographie de l'Orient latin I see that it probably contains an image of the seal of Amalric of Nesle, Latin patriarch of Jerusalem. It is presumably the image of the seal depicted at this site too. Alternatively it might be showing the patriarch's bulla, like this one. The book is in public domain and so we could use its images of seals, but I cannot find it online. This time last year I asked here for help regarding another seal from the same book, and Lambiam and Alansplodge brilliantly found it in another book, but I am not sure that will work now. I will also ask at WP:RX. Surtsicna (talk) 09:07, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's a copy of that book on archive.org here. I can't seem to connect to it at the moment, I'm not sure if this is a general issue or my sketchy internet connection. Alansplodge (talk) 13:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately it is misidentified, Alansplodge. That is another book, which can be seen from the title on its cover. And yes, I too have had troubles with archive.org lately. Surtsicna (talk) 13:59, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, apologies. The Hathi Trust catalogue record has a publication date of 1943 and says that it "is not available online - search only — due to copyright restrictions". Alansplodge (talk) 16:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I found a reference to "la bulle de plomb du roi de Jérusalem, Amauri Ier (1162–1173), qui a été publiée par M. le Marquis de Vogüé(1)".[20] The reference is to: Melchior de Vogüé, "Monnaies inédites des croisades", la Revue numismatique 1864, pp. 275–293 & pl. XIII, nr. 1.  --Lambiam 18:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't that Amalric of Jerusalem? fiveby(zero) 18:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, sorry.  --Lambiam 18:41, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:RX came through. The seal image is taken from the lost Anastasis mosaic correct? Looks similar to that in the Melisende Psalter. fiveby(zero) 18:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is this photo of the seal of Amalric at Dumbarton Oaks public domain? (Or is this photo of a different seal from doaks.org on Commons not really PD as claimed? Or maybe that user patiently went through the request process.) Edit: yes, I think you can upload that to Commons, assuming they photographed it in the US and it counts as two-dimensional. It is unfortunately worn-out and lacks details (such as a face) and the one that was in the auction house Is much nicer.  Card Zero  (talk) 20:32, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I received the page from Bsoyka at WP:RX. I must say that exceeded my expectations. Unfortunately, there is no image at all on those pages. Instead the book seems to point to the same source in which Lambiam found last year's seal: this book. I do not see Amalric's seal there, however. The only seal of a patriarch I see is that of William of Malines (though that too would be worth uploading). Surtsicna (talk) 18:34, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(I'm not familiar with the subject matter here, but definitely reach out if I can try to provide any other book scans or other resources. I can access millions of items in some way or another, and I'm always happy to share them.) Bsoyka (t • c • g) 19:02, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Considering that the auction house that sold the fine quality seal is Swiss, wouldn't their photo be public domain?  Card Zero  (talk) 21:17, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Card_Zero, as far as I know, seals are considered three-dimensional and so any photograph of a seal counts as an original work of art. At least that is why Wikimedia Commons is so severely lacking in seals and we have to resort to 19th-century hand-drawn reproductions. Surtsicna (talk) 19:27, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Russo-Korean war

Norway–Russia border says this:

Yet the Russia–Norway border is the only one of Russia's borders where an open war between the two bordering countries has not taken place.

The next sentence goes on to exclude the Petsamo–Kirkenes offensive, between Russia and German soldiers on site during the Second World War, so clearly it's talking about the current country rather than past occupiers.

Has there ever been open warfare between Russia and North Korea, or between Russia and Korea before 1945? (There is no Russo-Korean War article.) Not knowing much about the geography of the region, I'm unsure whether anything in the Russo-Japanese War article covers this border (even if Japanese control of Korea is treated differently from German control of Norway), and basically all I know about the war is naval anyway. The Soviet–Japanese War article likewise doesn't convey much to me, aside from the fact that the conflict was largely in Manchuria and Pacific islands; all I can see in Korea is related to invasion from Manchuria and an amphibious assault that didn't involve the border zone. Nyttend (talk) 19:16, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Soviet forces began amphibious landings in Korea by 14 August [1945] and rapidly took over the northeast of the country, and on 16 August they landed at Wonsan. from Division of Korea#Liberation, confusion, and conflict. However, Japan surrendered on 15 August 1945. Alansplodge (talk) 23:39, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So basically, no, Soviet forces didn't cross the border against the Japanese in 1945. What about at any time outside the Japanese suzerainty? Nyttend (talk) 19:06, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't recall Russia having any wars with Belarus, Azerbaijan, Mongolia, Kazakhstan... Was there "an open war" with the USA on the Chukotka-Alaska border? In any case, Nordsletten hardly qualifies as an authority on Russian history. Ghirla-трёп- 19:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of those countries were part of the Imperial Russian empire, so I assume they were conquered by force at some point. It depends how much continuity you assume between modern Russia and it's Tsarist predecessor, and those states and whoever was governing that region in the past. Chuntuk (talk) 12:12, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Russo-Japanese War was largely fought around and about Korea, and there was fighting such as the Battle of the Yalu River on the Korean border. The battles were not fought at the small modern Russian-Korean border, though. There was fighting between the Soviet Union and the Empire of Japan in 1938 at the Battle of Lake Khasan, very near the triple point between Russia, China, and North Korea, although not quite on the Russian-North Korean portion. --Amble (talk) 21:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 2

Indian princely state

Suzerainty#India refers to a tiny state of Babri, "with a population of 27 people and annual revenue of 80 rupees". Do we have an article on it anywhere? Babri redirects to Babri Masjid, a mosque at the centre of a long-running politico-religious controversy in India; Babri (state) doesn't exist; and Special:Search/Babri mostly contains references to the Babri Masjid with a few random other things like Helvijs Babris. Nyttend (talk) 19:21, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There were many hundreds of princely states, 485 in Western India States Agency alone, and as that article says some were little more than villages or farms. DuncanHill (talk) 19:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I had no idea there were so many tiny ones; I figured most princely states were on the level of Faridkot or Bussahir at least. How didn't the tiny ones get conquered and amalgamated centuries earlier? Nyttend (talk) 20:50, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the very small ones were early John Company grants to local tax-gatherers and the like, that never got tidied up. If the right tax or tribute was paid, and no real trouble arose, there wasn't any real imperative to change things. The source used for Babri in the Suzerainty article looks like it's quoting another work, but I don't know which one. I don't know of a definitive list, I suspect you could work your way through the articles in Category:Agencies of British India, but even then I doubt we name them all. DuncanHill (talk) 22:20, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. I figured it would be in the Company's best interests and the Mughal emperors' best interests to mediatise little states — fewer states with imperial immediacy means less bureaucracy to deal with all your subject states, and fewer subject rulers who can cause local problems for you — so I assumed that little states were left over from tumultuous times in the past. Nyttend (talk) 20:29, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But lots of little states, especially if they are rivals to one another, are less of a threat to your ongoing control than a few big ones would be. Divide and conquer, as they say. Chuntuk (talk) 13:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nyttend -- there were a lot of tiny estates of Imperial Knights in the Holy Roman empire, until the Napoleonic wars caused a consolidation. AnonMoos (talk) 18:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a small print-sly state. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:50, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i double over 130.74.58.20 (talk) 03:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 4

Looking for article about gullibility of conservatives

Today I came across a scholarly paper about how US conservatives are more susceptible to believing falsehoods than non-conservatives, and then to my surprise I found other reliable sources providing in-depthreporting on this phenomenon — enough sources to establish notability for the topic.

Because the studies have been out for a few years, I thought I'd find a Wikipedia article about it, but I can't find one. I would be surprised if it hasn't been written yet, so I suspect I'm searching for the wrong thing. Do we have such an article, or should I start drafting one? ~Anachronist (talk) 23:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be better to add such material to the Conservatism article itself, both to have it vetted by the community, and because it will get read a lot more there. That article already has a section on Psychology with subsections Conscientiousness, Disgust sensitivity, Authoritarianism, Ambiguity intolerance, Social dominance orientation, and Happiness. Abductive (reasoning) 03:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. That's a broad-subject article, and this topic of gullibility seems to be restricted to the United States, not conservatives in general. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we have a Conservatism in the United States article that you could consider. Nyttend (talk) 19:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not even really traditional philosophical conservatives, it's conspiratorial populists (some would say pseudo-populists) who are inheritors of the traditions discussed in the classic book The Paranoid Style in American Politics by Richard Hofstadter. AnonMoos (talk) 17:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This kind of studies is about:
First, finding out the correlation between level of conservativeness (of a person) and how (he or she is) susceptible to believing falsehoods. In the wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism_in_the_United_States, it mentioned “American conservatism is a large and mainstream ideology in the Republican Party and nation”. But the ideology is not a single dimension concept, how to measure ideology is difficult and different ways to measure ideology may give different results. Moreover, it is even more difficult to measure believing. There are many existing scales to measure believing, but none of them is comprehensive. Also, the world is not black and white, it is difficult to measure falsehoods.
Second, establishing the causal relationship is also difficult. Given that you can successfully establish the correlation, how can you prove that the causality is not a reverse, i.e. people who are more susceptible to believing falsehoods tend to being conservatives.
Therefore, I doubt whether there is a credible scholarly paper about this topic. But I think if you can sort out the definition and measurement problems, and you can establish the causal relationship in a convincing way, it could be a good research. Stanleykswong (talk) 11:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe it will be much easier to find references discussing how political extremists (on both sides) are more gullible. It isn't just politics. Religious extremists are more gullible. Racists extremists are more gullible. Gender rights extremists are more gullible. My personal opinion is that being gullible leads to becoming an extremist, but I am sure thare are many cases of brainwashing that lead to gullibility. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a young man many years ago. It came up that he was a Marine and I said that he didn't talk or act like a Marine. He said that the Marine attitude is forced through standard brainwashing techniques in boot camp, but if you know what the methods are and you know they are being used on you, they aren't very effective. So, another way to phrase that is if you are not gullible about the situation you are in, brainwashing attempts by other extremeists are less effective. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 12:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you that it is much easier to establish a link between extremists and gullibility. Also, brainwashing plays a key role. But I’m not sure what affects what. Are extremists more gullible or it is easier to turn gullible people into extremists? However, there is no doubt that brainwashing is an important moderating variable that affects the strength of the link between extremists and gullibility. Stanleykswong (talk) 13:59, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree with you that if a person knows about what brainwashing methods can be used on him/her, brainwashing will be less effective. The question is how to collect data for a robust scholarly research. Stanleykswong (talk) 14:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is outside my realm as a reference librarian. I can give observations. I have observed multiple times that many scientists do not consider psychology to be science because you cannot do proper scientific research. In this specific case, there is no scientific measure of gullibility. There is no scientific measure of extremism. First, you need multiple publications to agree to a metric of each one. Then, you can get data to work with. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 14:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 5

About a possible English language article for Egyptian poet Samir Darwish?

Hello all,

Copied from this over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Egypt.

Yo no hablo árabe - aiuto, per favor.

Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 09:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you're asking @Shirt58. As usual in a volunteer project, the best (and nearly the only) way to get somebody else to work on a particular article is to engage somebody's interest - and that is most likely to be somebody who already has some interest in the topic. So the WikiProject, where you've already asked, seems more likely to find somebody than posting here. ColinFine (talk) 10:38, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Childe Hassam "California" (1919)

California (1919)

There's a painting on Commons and elsewhere that says it's by American Impressionist Childe Hassam named California, and is said to have been dated to 1919. It was apparently auctioned by Christie's in 2017.[21] But I'm curious where in California this depiction is supposed to be from as it doesn't ring any bells. Hassam was known to stylize his paintings such that they would deviate from actual representations, most notably in his depiction of Point Lobos in 1914, where another artist voiced a complaint about this style. Viriditas (talk) 22:12, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources I can find have Hassam in and around San Francisco, but the painting does not look like the Bay Area. The foreground scene looks like the shore of Lake Tahoe, but the mountain peak does not. It looks more like Shasta or Lassen if anything. The bountiful harvest stacked up by the shore suggests it's more idealized than a real place. --Amble (talk) 00:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Shasta does seem more likely, but even Shasta doesn't look like that. I know Tahoe like the back of my hand, and that isn't it. I've only visited Lassen once, and I think that could be it. Viriditas (talk) 02:14, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 6

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