Talk:Michel Ney

North Carolina?

There is a tale in my family that Ney came to America after being supposedly executed. He taught my ancestors as a travelling tutor, in Wake County, North Carolina. He never let on about his past except during evenings when he became intoxicated and strutted around, speaking French, and claiming to be Marshal of France.

For your information.

John Coan jcoan@alumni.duke.edu

• Yes, this was on Unsolved Mysteries, about a red haired French immigrant School Master in North Carolina who may have been Michel Ney. It might be worth a mention in the article, as long as it is clearly stated as unverified, but the editor adding this would have to be very very careful with the phrasing. Additionally, while the concept is fascinating, I am not sure it really is relevant to this article, instead more an afterthought or a final exclamation point to the legend to say, "Oh yeah, he might have escaped to America." GestaltG 20:22, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Actually this legend seems to be more credible than appears at first glance. There do appear to be some legitimate researchers who have found evidence supporting it. See http://library.davidson.edu/archives/ency/ney.asp and http://www.salisburypost.com/2001oct/100601c.htm. The mention of handwriting matches is especially noteworthy. Kadri

It's just so damn lowbrow. Must every Wikipedia article eventually devote space to conspiracy theorists? It's like the National Enquirer version of history. Profhum (talk) 06:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The article citation says the evidence is "tenuous at best" then proceeds to give the exact opposite in the form of both circumstantial AND physical evidence that in my opinion, does too good a job of making this complete and utter fact. Is there any way to cite a source that goes about picking this "legend" apart? It seems like the only evidence against Ney's survival in America is simply saying "not true", whereas the side supporting it has a buttload of evidence from his similar handwriting, similar appearance, and similar physical scars and admission. I'm never one to believe in conspiracy theories; I believe the US did land on the moon and too much evidence supports that, and I believe Lee Oswald killed Kennedy alone and there is too much evidence to support that. But this "legend" has too much evidence supporting the "conspiracy" theory, and no evidence not supporting it. Someone please clarify this? AndarielHalo (talk) 15:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Copyedit and NPOV nomination

I have nominated this page for the following reasons:

• First, this article needs "clean-up" and some Wikifying, which I have started but not completed. I have edited down to the Battle of Waterloo, but I am currently working on another more involved article and cannot finish the edit. Hopefully, someone will finish.
• Second, in reading this page, I got the sense of "hero-worship" by the original editor. Thus, this page lacks a NPOV and needs to be expanded and subdivided. Particularly, in opposite to the overall tone of this page, other sources have indicated that Marshal Ney was not particularly brilliant, and thus the discussion of the criticisms of Ney need to be expanded. GestaltG 20:22, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

comments

A couple of comments:

• It would be nice to have something covering the gap between his early life as a manual laborer and his later life as an extremely high-ranking officer.
• The part about "However, Ney also had part of the blame, for he was cowardly" may be true, but it's extremely incongruous compared to his depiction in the rest of the article. If it's true, the article should state it in a way that acknowledges this incongruity. Otherwise it's simply confusing for the reader.--75.83.140.254 06:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I added a request for a citation, the "cowardly' part seams to be personal opinion.--Bryson 14:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Napoleonic Wars Career

I re-wrote the 'Soldier for Napoleon' section, which I found to be filled with both hero worship and statements about Ney being a terrible commander, as well as many un-sourced statments. I have re-written it in a chronological order, fact based way (ie. dates, places, titles, events etc.), and added many notes. I also added the ‘Revolutionary Wars Career’ section to cover a previously void part of Ney’s life. --Bryson 23:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Post Napoleon Career / Ney During the Hundred Days

I replaced the ‘After Napoleon’s fall’ section with two re-written sections. I have keep some original text, but the rest I wrote to fill in some details, as well as added a number of notes. --Bryson 04:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Early life comment

Is it just me or does "Michel Ney was born in Saarlouis, a French enclave in the German-speaking Lorraine, something that made Ney bilingual." read rather poorly. I have also read in Military History that Ney was of half Scottish stock, I also read this on a history web site, but when I added said comments, they were removed. --Diarmada

I wrote that section and have to admitt that me english isn't the best in world since I am swedish, but I try and hope that my fellow editors will help. About the other thing, I found nothing about Ney being half scottish in the sources I used to rewrite the early life section, so I removed it. Can You give sources were you have read it and if it was his mother or father that was scottish? Carl Logan 23:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It could use re-wording; I did not change that section when I cleaned up this article awhile back. I have a biography on Ney, Ney spoke German at home and learned French at school, but I can’t find anything about him being part Scottish – do you have a source for Ney being half Scottish?--Bryson 23:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I came across the following article after typing "Michel Ney Scottish in Google. It is far from empirical, but it was the first article that I checked, my time is limited so maybe this will point someone in the right direction, I do remember the Military History article on Ney, I will try and root it out:

"December 7, 1815- MARSHAL NEY SHOT. Michel Ney, Napoleon's right hand at Waterloo, was executed. Called Le Rougeaud -the Redhead- because his hair color was inherited from his Scottish father, who was a follower of Bonny Prince Charlie. After the French defeat at Waterloo, the restored French royalty needed a scapegoat to blame for the embarrassing ease with which the Corsican upstart took back France. Michel Ney was courtmartialed by his peers, executed against a wall in the Luxembourg Gardens. The fiery warrior offered no repentance and even gave the :"Ready, Aim, -Fire!" order himself. Recently some theorists have claimed that the execution was a sham arranged by Wellington and that Ney lived on. Their reasons were that the public was kept away from the execution site and that the soldiers of the firing squad were handpicked from Neys old veterans. When shot he is said to have fallen forward instead of backwards after being hit by 12 -68 caliber musketballs, and that the customary coup de grace pistol shot to the brain was not administered. Instead, the body was immediately bundled up into a carriage and driven away. That night the officer in charge of the firing squad was arrested by the Royalist government. Twenty two years later in 1837 on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean a French immigrant schoolteacher named Michael Stewart died of old age in North Carolina. On his deathbed he told his confessor " I swear before God that I am Michel Ney, Marshal of France." When embalming the body his family saw he was covered with scars from old musket and saber wounds." Diarmada 10:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Diarmada (talk • contribs) 10:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

In the French edition of Wikipedia his mother is said to be Scottish. It also recites some anecdotes about a Pierre Ney living in North Carolina, who claimed to be Marshall Ney. There is no source quoted in the French Wikipedia edition. By the way, they don't bother with embroidering his early life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.109.106 (talk) 00:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Please clarify Marriage and children

These points could do with clarification

• by whom he had issue extinct in male line and a bastard son married without issue. Was the bastard son with someone else? Presumably but I'm reluctant to change the original sense of the words since I don't know; did they have the son together but he was technically bastard for some reason? Or was he not a bastard but something else that made him ineligible to inherit?
• Edgar Napoléon Henry, recognized as 3rd Prince de La Moskowa 1857... the title went back to his older brother's issue. Which brother's issue?
• Joseph Napoléon, 2nd Prince de La Moskowa... Michel Louis Félix, recognized as 2nd Duc d'Elchingen 1826. Presumably Joseph isn't "recognised" since he got it as soon as his father died?
  • is this correct? (Maybe these are standard terms in this field, if so a note in reply to this would be useful; if not please clarify the article)
  • if so why the gap from his father's death to the 2nd Duc being recognised?

Lessthanideal (talk) 10:23, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The gap, as I understand it, was because Napoleonic titles weren't initially recognised by the restored Bourbon kings. There were two sons, and the titles were divided between them and their issue. When one son's line ended, the titles passed to the other son's descendants. Coemgenus 16:27, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Translation of "Le Rougeaud"

Wouldn't "Big Red" or just "Red" be a better translation of this nickname? Nobody is called "ruddy" in English anymore, and "Red" is a common English nickname for red-headed people.Mtsmallwood (talk) 05:45, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The eventual fate of Michael Ney

I don’t think Michael was shot to death in 1815. I think Peter Stuart Ney with the greatest probability was Michael Ney. These are my arguments:

¤ When Michael was to be executed by firing squad several people where watching. According to them he literally hit his own chest at the same time as the shoots where fired.
¤ After Michael would have been executed no-one checked that he was really dead.
¤ Michael’s wife Louise refused to be present at the funeral which was very unlike her.
¤ Louise Ney refused to remarry. If her husband had really been dead she could very well have done so.
¤ There is no evidence of any Peter Stuart Ney before 1816. Yet he on his own statement turned 47 years that year!
¤ Peter’s age matched exactly Michael’s.
¤ Peter showed on a map the area where he was born. Michael was born in a place which was within that area.
¤ Peter said that he had worked as a soldier during the French Revolution and emperor Napoléon. This is consistent with Michael who joined the army in 1788.
¤ Peter said he felt strong sympathy for Napoléon I Bonaparte. Michael knew Napoléon personally.
¤ When Peter described his wife which he had not been able to take with him to the United States his description matched exactly Louise Ney.
¤ Michael and Peter had the same hair colour (sandy) and about the same hairstyle.
¤ Peter met several people whom Michael had known. They recognised him as Michael. However, they did not admit it until after his death.
¤ Peter’s knowledge of languages matches Michael’s.
¤ Peter behaved as an officer towards his pupils. He may have been strict but he was just.
¤ Of everything Peter did in the United States he was best at training soldiers.
¤ Peter was a skilled rider and widely known as a swordsman.
¤ When Peter wrote his signature he used to add three Freemason symbols. It was the same three symbols which Michael used to add to his name.
¤ Peter disappeared at several occasions without anyone knowing where he went. Did he meet someone or some people whom he did not want people to know about?
¤ Many letters which Peter got he immediately hided. What did he have to hide?
¤ It was not possible to get out more about Peter’s background than he told himself on his own responsibility. If people asked questions to him about his origin they only got mysterious answers.
¤ When Peter got to know that Napoléon I Bonaparte was dead he fainted from the chock. The following day he made a failed suicide attempt. When he got the question of why he tried to take his life he answered: “Oh…Napoleon is dead. It is my last hope that is gone…”
¤ Once when Peter had been drunk he was found sleeping on the ground by neighbours. When they lifted him to take him home he woke up from it. Peter then accidentally called himself “the Duke of Elchingen”. This was Michael’s noble title.
¤ Peter once saw a carpenter make a coffin for a man of precisely the same size. He commented it with: “Ah! They once thought of putting me in a coffin, but they were wrong!”
¤ When Peter retired in 1842 he said to a young woman he met: “The old Marshal will soon end his days. The Bourbons have won. I can never go back!”
¤ On his death bed Peter said: “I will not die with a lie on the lips. I am Marshal Ney of France”.
¤ The woman who washed the dead Peter saw a terrible scar on his left upper arm. It fits with the most serious injury that Michael got in battle.
¤ Peter at his death owned many books about Napoléon I:s reign. In them he had written many comments in the pages’ margins. One of the books contained a picture of Michael. At the side of it there was a drawing which Peter had added. It is provided with the texts “Ney by himself” and “he was bald”.
¤ Texts written by hand by Michael and Peter have been compared by two different forensic document examiners. Both drew the conclusion that the texts had been written by the same person.
¤ When Michael Ney’s grave in Paris was opened in 1903 it turned out to be empty! He who opened the grave could swear to it his whole life.

These arguments are taken from an article by Pascal Cazottes published on the website of the International Napoleonic Society (http://www.napoleonicsociety.com). If you want to read the original French version please click on “French”, then on the word “Articles” at the left side. Then you get to a list of articles where you can choose “Le Maréchal Ney est-il mort en Amérique ?”. If you want the English translation by Ben Weider you can choose “English”, then “Articles” and finally “Did Marshal Ney die in America ?”. Sure, the translator is stated as “Jinny Addesa” but it was used as user name by Ben. This is no secret: everyone who received an e-mail from Ben during his last years knows this. Although the sender was stated as “Jinny Addesa” the e-mails where consistently signed with “Ben Weider”. I had myself a lengthy correspondence with Ben during 2007 about the cause of Napoléon’s death. Curiously, the captions of the article are in French. I think Ben did not manage to finish the translation before he died. This would explain the several strange expressions in the translation. They don’t follow English language usage but are still understandable. Please also note that Moscow is consistently spelled “Moskowa” in the translation. All quotes in my list of arguments are copied from the English translation of the article. I don’t know the original language of them.

In the article on the website of the International Napoleonic Society Pascal Cazottes gives an explanation for how Michael Ney could survive his own apparent execution. The soldiers of the firing squad took aim besides him so they did not shot him to death. Michael had a bladder full of animal blood hidden under his clothes. When the soldiers fired he hit his own chest breaking the bladder and releasing its content of blood. At the same time he intentionally collapsed. It looked like a real execution albeit slightly different than expected. Please note that these where the expectations of persons which had seen people being executed by firing squad before and thus know what to expect. After taking farewell of his family Michael somehow managed to escape to Bordeaux. No doubt the greatest problem would have been avoiding people which did not only recognise him but also where ready to report him. In Bordeaux he went on board a ship bound for Philadelphia together with two friends. In Philadelphia a fellow passenger saw Michael visiting a shop to bye a flute. In the article Pascal Cazottes does not tell what he think Michael did during the following three years. What we know for sure is that a 50 year old man matching the description of Michael turned up in a village in South Carolina in 1819. He introduced himself as Peter Stuart Ney and offered to work as a teacher. In this profession he made a living in different places until his retirement at the age of 73. If I understand it correctly he lived his last four years in the home of his friend Osborne Giles Foard in Rowan Mills, North Carolina. On his death bed in 1846 Peter confessed that he was Michael. This is where the search for truth about Michael Ney’s eventual fate begins. If what he confessed on his death bed was true most of the questions around the mysterious Peter Stuart Ney can be answered. My points are these:

¤ The unexpected details around Michael Ney’s execution can be explained by it being faked.
¤ If Michael was not shot to death but instead escaped to the United States where he lived the rest of his life the strange behaviour of his wife is explained. This can also explain Peter’s description of his wife matching Louise Ney exactly.
¤ If Michael and Peter was in fact the same person this explains the many physical and mental similarities between them. These includes a handwriting so similar that two forensic document examiners come to the conclusion that their text samples had been written by the same person.
¤ Even if he is a great admirer of Napoléon I Bonaparte why would a former French soldier faint when he was told about the ex-emperor’s death? I would expect him to burst into cry rather than faint. But if he had known Napoléon personally his reaction becomes understandable. His failed suicide attempt the following day and his explanation of it makes some sense too if Peter really was Michael.
¤ Peter’s many mysterious expressions can be explained as tiny pieces of truth slipping out of his mouth by accident.
¤ The many letters immediately hidden by Peter can be explained as being from his family and old friends.
¤ The repeated disappearances of Peter are explained as visits to old friends. The testimony of such old friends should not be dismissed either. Please note that these people had worked with Michael and as such knew him personally before they emigrated to the United States.
¤ Peter’s secretiveness about his background can be explained by him fearing for his life if it was found out that he was not already dead. This also explains his confession on his deathbed that he was Michael. By then he would no longer fear to be killed since he knew that he would die anyway.
¤ If Michael Ney was still alive at the time of his funeral it would explain his grave in Paris being empty. This is most likely the case since the guy who opened his first grave to move his remains could swear that there where no remains to move.

To be really sure about the eventual fate of Michael Ney we could open his grave in Paris as well as Peter Stuart Ney’s grave. What we find in these graves could be DNA-tested and compared to a male line only descendant of Michael. A sample form the real Michael Ney should not only have the same Y chromosome as the descendant. The similarity of the rest of the genome should also be consistent with the number of generations between them. For example if the man is a fifth generation descendant he and Michael should share 1/32 of the variable genes. However, as mentioned before the grave in Paris said to be Michael’s is most likely empty. If it is and the DNA-testing of Peter’s remains turns out to be as described only the most ignorant and stubborn will not be convinced that Michael died a natural death in 1846. I know that people have different opinions about the suitability of such an examination. If there is a way to find out if a grave is empty without opening it I would certainly welcome that.

Please note that I am not a conspiracy theorist. In fact I am convinced that real-world conspiracies are very different from what conspiracy theorists imagine. These people have far too many misconceptions about how things work especially the human mind and the laws of nature. Conspiracy theorists also commit many logical fallacies including frequent circular reasoning. As soon as I get time and an account on a web hosting service I will write a comparison between conspiracy theories and real-world conspiracies and post it on the discussion page of the headword “conspiracy theory”. For me history is the search for the objective truth about the past. Sometimes this search leads to major revisions of details, a person turns out to have died from an other cause, an other person turns out to have had an other fate, a certain procedure does not work as intended, or an old invention turns out to have existed in few and precious copies long earlier. In each of these cases the revised scenario was already considered possible by mainstream science. I am not an expert just an ordinary sceptic. As long as you refrain from ad hominem attacks on me questions will be answered to the best of my ability.

2010-06-04 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.