Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Read these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
Start a new discussion

Abuse of admin powers and Violation of WP:INVOLVED by User:Sandstein

Sandstein (talk · contribs) is currently abusing his admin powers against users who have been querying his actions. Both User:The Devil's Advocate and I have made polite queries about one of his actions. [1] [2]. His response to questioning his decision-making has been to immediately issue WP:AE warnings.[3] [4] This is clearly inappropriate in response to polite queries and a clear violation of WP:INVOLVED. I request a block of Sandstein as he clearly will continue to WP:DISRUPT Wikipedia by abusing his powers.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:18, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Additional information. I specifically warned Sandstein that I would be taking him to ANI if his reply was unsatisfactory. His reply was then to issue the bogus AE warning. Given that I had told him that I would take him here, I feel that this has to be a violation of any sensible concept of WP:INVOLVED. The reason I said I would take him here is that his actions are against the "consensus or near consensus" described in the closing summary in this previous ANI thread. Instead of over-ruling a consensus or near-consensus previously reached at this board in a discussion involving many admins, Sandstein should be seeking to change the consensus through open debate.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:32, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support, at least until Sandstein looks into the matter properly and recognises where he went wrong. As it is, we have an unfortunate situation where Sandstein seems to have decided that he will take admin action against any editor who tries to tell him, politely, that he has gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick. Being wrong is one thing, but issuing point-blank warnings or sanctions against editors who gently tap him on the shoulder to say "Look, mate, you've made a mistake here" is past the pale, and a violation of WP:ADMINACCT. (I'd settle for him undoing his misguided actions and apologising.) Andreas JN466 20:44, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Unfortunately Sandstein treats AE as his own personal domain where he is King and his word is law. He has long been allowed to do whatever he wants to whomever he wants with mide dscretion and latitude. Its been a problem for a long time and has been brought up many times in many venues. It needs to be addressed. Kumioko (talk) 20:47, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• I'm not sure what the case for INVOLVED is, strictly speaking, in the sense that Sandstein acting in an admin capacity doesn't make him involved in that sense. Certainly, I would consider myself "involved" in the sense of generally not being allowed to issue warnings or sanctions for an edit that's questioning my judgement, but I don't know if that meets the hand-wringingly technical definition of INVOLVED in the strictest sense. That said, I'm not sure how this could be said to fall under the discretionary sanctions mentioned in the Arbitration case, as that's for Scientology topics, not discussion of previous accounts or outing or whatever, and I don't see how the "broadly-construed" electricity could be played out that far. In that sense, I don't see how Sandstein could use the Arbcom case as justification for sanctions. (As far as a block goes, I don't friggin' know.) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:51, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• This doesn't make sense to me. Granted, everyone who wants to know who Prioryman is, although mentioning it is discouraged, but how this turned into an Arb warning....seems to be stretching that well beyond the original intent. It is big stick that can prevent other admin from directly unblocking, so it should be used sparingly, not so liberally, and this use greatly disturbs me. I would prefer to hear Sandstein's perspective and research a bit more before drawing any conclusions, however. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

isn't it par for the course that whenever prioryman is in a snit ARBSCI gets invoked somehow? John lilburne (talk) 21:26, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• I should note that Sandstein went further than just warning me, but imposed a discretionary sanction after I objected to his initial warning. I now see that his sanction says I am not even allowed to discuss the sanction on-wiki or "sanctions imposed in relation to this topic" whatever the hell that means. This is even more absurd than I originally thought. Such a restriction is completely ridiculous and should be lifted immediately.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:16, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. A block for some speculative unspecified future misuse of admin powers? I don't think you've made much of a case here, especially when it comes to WP:INVOLVED. Let's use this space to figure out what's going on here first. Gamaliel (talk) 21:13, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Warnings of AE sanctions, logged at the arbitration page itself, are things that I would consider a use of admin authority (even if not a use of a tool per se), and even if one doesn't consider warnings as such, Sandstein also summarily topic-banned TDA on similar grounds, as here and here. As an aside, I don't know what Drg said or didn't say to originally cause the block, but topic-banning TDA for making the connection between Prioryman and their previous account is ridiculous when the very Arbcom page at which Sandstein logged the topic-ban makes the same connection as seen here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology#Modified_by_motion_3. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:28, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
    • If the action in question is an inappropriate topic ban, then let's lift the ban and trout the admin. Gamaliel (talk) 21:31, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose It's hard to see how culling drama here can be a bad thing. It's not at all clear how this topic ban is meaningful outside of the realm of drama mongering. aprock (talk) 21:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose First, this is the wrong forum for actions against an admin, especially considering that oversighted material is involved. So, you were not happy with the answer ... and the answer was "cannot be discussed on-wiki". So that means you ask for a block? WTF?? Go to ArbComm, make a case, because they can deal with any unsuitable/oversighted issues in camera. Nobody jumps to block an admin for a judgement call that appears to be correct in face. Even if it's wrong, this is still the wrong forum, and the OP knows that. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 21:55, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

  I don't see a block coming from this, but this the right forum. Arb requires that the community has tried to solve a problem and is unable to. Admin can block other admin, we've seen it done more than once. According to one member of Arb (Salvio), the community can also topic ban an admin to prevent him from using his tools[5]. I'm not saying any of this is warranted, but I am saying the community appears to be empowered to take any action short of desysopping in regards to admin. So this is the right forum for a discussion. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:09, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dennis, it's not possible to even dream of discussing the situation in ANI ... yet. The community does not have the ability OR authority to view the oversighted edits ... yet, the OP is asking for action based on Sandstein's actions following those very edits. There's no possible way for any of the community to have an intelligent !vote without the full picture. If someone wants to confirm with ArbComm that the edits were, indeed, outing (and NOT simply repeating something the community has already said is NOT outing) and come back here for further sanctions discussions, then awesome. Until then, we're shooting blindly and cannot make a decision. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 22:46, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• Sounds like you should go ask ArbComm then. Arkon (talk) 22:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Not my job to go to ArbComm ... that's the OP's job to have done his homework before coming here. If the OP's actually wrong, he's now going to look like an Alexander and have to eat some of the most rotten crow imaginable for raising this level of drama. If he's right, then yeah, something's rotten in the state of Denmark. One never takes that kind of risk on a hunch or without complete information (✉→BWilkins←✎) 23:13, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Bwilkins, saying "the OP's job to have done his homework before coming here." sounds like a long verion of "RTFM". Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:25, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

If you aren't willing to do what you believe is the correct course of action, I don't know why you bothered to comment. Arkon (talk) 23:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

That might be the most ridiculous and illogical comment I've seen all month. Congrats: you win a prize! (✉→BWilkins←✎) 23:21, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Bwilkins, you and everyone else can see Peter cohen (talk · contribs)'s edits to Sandstein's talk page. Nothing has been rev-deled or oversighted. What exactly did Peter cohen say there that was worthy of an ARBSCI warning, given that it is not even a topic area he has ever edited? Andreas JN466 23:50, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Based on the original complaint, the ARBSCI warning to Peter is not the part of the issue - he added that as an aside, not as part of the complaint. As such, I'm not investigating that aspect whatsoever, and that's tangential to the rest of the issues being highlighted (✉→BWilkins←✎) 00:03, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

What it says at the top of this thread is this: Sandstein (talk · contribs) is currently abusing his admin powers against users who have been querying his actions. Both User:The Devil's Advocate and I have made polite queries about one of his actions. [1] [2]. His response to questioning his decision-making has been to immediately issue AE warnings.[3] [4] This is clearly inappropriate in response to polite queries and a clear violation of WP:INVOLVED. I request a block of Sandstein as he clearly will continue to WP:DISRUPT Wikipedia by abusing his powers.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:18, 9 July 2013 (UTC) For the avoidance of doubt, AE warning = ARBSCI warning. Andreas JN466 00:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• But if there was additional genuinely outing information, Sandstein could simply have told me that there was extra information beyond what was already known on WP and could have told TDA the same. Instead of giving a simple yes or no answer, Sandstein's response was to feel affronted that some non-admins dare question him and to start using his admin powers against them. The issue here is not anything to do with Prioryman. As Dennis says above anyone who wants to know Prioryman's name can find it out with very little effort. The issue is that Sandstein is an out of control admin whose response to being questioned is to abuse his powers against those who question him. You can see something similar at a current RFAR where, after Ironholds questioned another of his blocks in the past, Sandstein now demands that Ironholds's employers be contacted on another matter. Sandstein fails to assume good faith about me or TDA. My suspicion is that this is because he knows that many of his actions on WP are in bad faith.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:58, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The way I read Sandstein's comments and edit summaries, that's exactly what he's telling you ... then again, English was not my original language, and it's most certainly not Sandstein's (✉→BWilkins←✎) 23:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Just because something is not that hard to find doesn't mean it's a good idea or even acceptable to make a big deal of it on wikipedia. And even if that wasn't your intention, it seems clear it was having that effect, even more so in the case of TDA. In other words, this is actually a lot about the editor concerned and how we should treat various information out there about them, as well of course as whether it's a good idea for those who make a deal about said information to be editing a troublesome topic area where it comes in to play. I would add I am and have been fully aware of some of the linkages involved here before this and as with Tarc, don't actually think much of the editor concerned so this isn't about me being totally blind nor favouring the editor in any way. Either way though, I don't see how we, who do not have access to all the information, may not be able to discuss it openly and are ultimately trying to interpret someone else's decision without asking them when they would likely to be fine with clarifying or probably even taking the whole thing can reach good decision. Nil Einne (talk) 23:33, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• My understanding is that Sandstein is sanctioning people for linking to an existing prior AN/I thread, and publicly viewable arbitration case pages. I am sorry, do we have no-go areas on Wikipedia now? This is not what WP:OUTING says: if the information is not redacted or oversighted, it is public. You don't sanction people who criticise a decision of yours for linking to existing public material on Wikipedia. Andreas JN466 23:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• I disagree. The problem here is we are getting in to revdeleted material, concerns over harassment and possible outing which relate significantly to discussion of various linkages on wiki, and interpretation and enforcement of an arbcom decision. I won't comment on the appropriateness of the original topic ban like whether it's appropriate to topic ban someone out of concern their insisting there's not wrong with making the linkages and in the process doing so suggests they cannot edit without undue problem in the topic area or whether that's too wide an interpretation, but the suggestion it should be appealed directly to arbcom is sound. If arbcom really throws it back to us then so be it, I find it highly unlikely this is going to happen considering the circumstances, at the very least I expect them to provide helpful clarification so that we can make a better informed decision. One of the big problems is that while there may very well be no problem in linking the identities etc, if there is this whole discussion defeats one of Sandstein's purposes of the restrictions. I would note I noticed this ANI before any reply, I didn't reply because I didn't see any good path forward and the ensuring discussion seems to have reaffirmed that. This comment was originally above Bwilkins 22:46 reply, I modified it slightly and resigned it. To avoid confusion due to the to new time stamping, I moved it below as it's clear from their indentation and content that Bwilkins is replying to Dennis Brown not me so the location is arbitrary but should ideally follow chronology. Nil Einne (talk) 23:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - The Wikipedia dramah boardz are a wretched hive of scum and villainy as it is, while AE is several circles below even that; Sandstein deserves a medal for being willing to deal with that shit day in and day out. I have no great love for the editor at the heart of this either, but when other editors are throwing that semi-known identity in his face in the midst of a historically troublesome topic area, that's just plain unnecessary and disruptive. Tarc (talk) 22:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• But why an WP:ARBSCI warning? Under WP:ADMINACCT, that is a reasonable question to ask, even if it didn't require the bit. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, accountability applies to all admins. People helping at AE are not exempt from it, nor are they allowed to use the threat of arbcom sanctions as a bludgeon to silence questioning. Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:16, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

There are times when such concerns should be done privately rather than openly posted. I mean, really, how stupid does a person have to be to file a complaint with an admin action and in the process use much of the same verbiage that that admin just sanctioned someone for in the first place? It's like going over the speed limit on your way to the courthouse to contest your other speeding ticket. Tarc (talk) 00:40, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Sandstein is not WP:INVOLVED. The incidents mentioned here, including the warnings and topic ban, are consequences of commentary following an indefinite block of drg55 during an unsuccessful appeal at WP:AE concerning WP:ARBSCI (hence the templates). [6] The drama being created here is not very different from incidents concerning the account Russavia a few months ago. Since the oversight team has been involved, arbcom is already aware of some of these incidents. Any appeals or complaints should presumably be made privately to them and are not suitable for discussion here, as others have said. Mathsci (talk) 23:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• You are the first to actually provide a policy rationale, which helps, although it would be helpful if a Functionary would ping in. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:38, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• There is a difference. As far as I know, Russavia has never indicated what his real name is either on WP or any other Wikimedia project or related site. Prioryman has, just like Fae did. Also Cla68 actually linked to offsite information which I did not do and I don't think that TDA did so either.--Peter cohen (talk) 00:00, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Indeed. No editor should be warned or sanctioned under an arbitration case's discretionary sanctions scheme for doing no more than linking to that same arbitration case's publicly viewable pages, and/or an equally public thread in the AN/I archive. If an admin claims that posting such links on his talk page constitutes outing, and uses it as a reason to issue warnings and sanctions to editors, then he's simply overstepped the mark. What is particularly bizarre is Sandstein's exhortation that Peter cohen 'Please review particularly the parts of the policy WP:OUTING that provide: "If an editor has previously posted their own personal information but later redacted it, it should not be repeated on Wikipedia" and "If the previously posted information has been removed by oversight, then repeating it on Wikipedia is considered outing."' Neither the ANI thread nor the arbitration case pages where the disclosures were made ever were redacted or oversighted. If people want to make that information non-public, then they should remove the information from the arbitration case pages (I guess that would mean oversighting one finding of fact the arbitrators made, which I believe would be a first). But it's nonsensical to sanction people for linking to what presently is public. Cart, horse; get them in the right order. Andreas JN466 00:42, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support Sandstein is using his admin tools and sanctions to deflect criticism, all in pursuit of covering up a widely known identity.→StaniStani  00:32, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support per Andreas. Hillbillyholiday ^talk 00:53, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support per Andreas. Sandstein's gun-toting sheriff model for adminning is causing great damage to the project, with the departure of some of our best editors through his wild actions. Tony (talk) 01:05, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your support. Are you able to give examples of recent other outrages Sandstein has committed? Especially interesting will be examples of his going on the warpath against people who question his judgment as that is the issue I have raised. I know he has a lot of enemies but I haven't been watching his actions closely enough to know which he has made recently and why.--Peter cohen (talk) 01:22, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. How many editors are commenting here as a result of the recent post-block posting of Drg55 on wikipediocracy? Some posts in this thread will probably be oversighted with one or more accounts blocked (not Sandstein, however). Mathsci (talk) 01:14, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I've just checked and cannot see any mention of this ANI thread on Wikipediocracy.--Peter cohen (talk) 01:22, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Did you find the posting of Drg55? Mathsci (talk) 01:28, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

That's the thread I checked. I rather assume that if Drg55 actually knew any more about Prioryman than is already in the public domain, then he or she would have ingratiated his/herself to the Prioryman fan club over there by volunteering the information over there having failed to get it to stick over here. Unless the mods over there have been redacting things, then no such info has been posted. This is what gave me the idea that Sandstein had misunderstood the situation about whether there was any new information being provided.--Peter cohen (talk) 01:39, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support per Andreas and Tony. Sandstein should not be treating Wikipedia as though it is a fiefdom he has autocratic control over in the Game of Thrones --Epipelagic (talk) 01:19, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support per above. Neotarf (talk) 01:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• No In the past I have asked Sandstein to resign his adminship due to his confused approach to AE—the correct situation is that admins should be encouraging things that benefit the encyclopedia, and discouraging things that don't, and Sandstein is too rule-bound to see how some dramas should be handled, and that does damage the project by driving off good editors who have been sucked into a vortex of despair by prolonged disruption from others. However, this incident is one where Sandstein is perfectly correct—just because various past discussions enable a sleuth to work out that editor X is person Y, does not mean that everyone gets to go around saying "X is Y!". Any problem relating to a decision by an admin at AE can be discussed with claims of "the identity of X is common knowledge, so ..."— there is no need to parrot X is Y. I follow AE and fully endorse Tarc's comment above that "Sandstein deserves a medal for being willing to deal with that shit day in and day out". I just wish a judgment upgrade could be applied—is the proposed action going to help the encyclopedia?. Johnuniq (talk) 01:37, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Comment by an uninvolved editor. I have been concerned for some time about Sandstein's use of his administrative powers. He is too often arbitrary, autocratic and hasty. He needs to rein himself in before others do it for him. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:40, 10 July 2013 (UTC).
• Oppose. Whether or not one believes what has been oversighted truly was outing, one does have to wonder why certain people simply can't walk away from the issue in the first place. A lot of this reads as being quite WP:POINTy. Also, whether or not one agrees with Sandstein's judgment on the outing issue, I find the claim that he is INVOLVED because TDA and Peter cohen complained frivolous. Resolute 01:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Sandstein's actions here have been seriously inappropriate, but clearly do not warrant blocking. For an admin to impose sanctions in response to what appears to be good faith, reasonably based criticism of their actions certainly seems contrary to the policy concerns underlying WP:INVOLVED. To insist on a rigid and unyielding application of WP:OUTING, in circumstances where the goals of the policy cannot be well-served by doing so, is unwise, disruptive, and ultimately destructive to the fabric of this community. It is clear that the community has rejected the notion that only voluntary, on-Wikipedia, never-removed self-identification can justify conduct that would otherwise be WP:OUTING. Qworty never self-identified on Wikipedia, but his identity is reported, without any great dispute, in Robert Clark Young. The identity of the editor at issue here has been widely disclosed and circulated, and is easy enough to discern from various arbitration discussions. Sandstein's actions, despite their good faith, serve no legitimate Wikipedia purposes. Sandstein should undo their recent round of sanctions and recuse from this general dispute, construed with some breadth. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 02:04, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, what? Everything after "It is clear" is pretty unclear. Where did the community decide that? And the example you provide re Qworty does not appear to have any application here as that is summary information from a reporter. Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Qworty never self-identified on-Wiki. Under the terms of WP:OUTING, his legal name, etc shouldn't be associated with the account name. But we clearly accept stating his real-life identity, because it's been disclosed in a sufficiently public fashion. While the instant case is not so widely disclosed, the real-life identity has effectively been disclosed in arbitration discussions, even if not stated so baldly. "A is B" and "B is C" lead inexorably to "A is C," and it serves no valid purpose to punish people for stating that third equivalence. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 02:50, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Qworty did self-identify themselves on Wiki. It was one of the last few of his edits. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 03:05, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per aprock. Moreover, I agree with Bwilkins — private things should never be grounds for a community-imposed block or ban or other sanctions. Make things public before using them as evidence for something like this, or if they shouldn't be made public, seek sanction through something like Arbcom, which can handle private information properly. This looks to me like a matter of "jump on the admin we don't like" more than anything else. Nyttend (talk) 02:08, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Wrong forum. Only Arb can take away adminship, and blocking an admin is pretty pointless, in most cases. If they actually warranted blocking for say, a lack of judgement, a far lower bar would be needed for a de-sysopping. The imposed topic ban, though, actually applies to everyone, as no one can discuss the outing of anyone. I would recommend to the admin in question that there are other forums other than WP:AE, and reasons for doing things that go beyond Arb motions. Apteva (talk) 02:22, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Sandstein routinely has issues in this area and has for a while. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 03:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. I do not agree with Sandstein's actions here, but a block makes no sense at all. This whole block proposal looks like WP:POINT. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:34, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

  I admit that its pointless to block him. He's an admin and could and probably would just undo it. Then what, nothing would happen. Even if he broke the rule we couldn't desysop him. That takes action by Arbcom. Taking this to Arbcom is a waste of time. Sandstein is the Arbcom's executioner and who would be willing to don the hood at AE if he didn't do it? So no matter whether we support or oppose here, the result is the status quo. There is nothing that can be done. Which to me, is way more of a problem than just having an abusive admin allowed to do whatever they want. Time and time again he has been brought before venues like this and nothing is done. Nothing can be done. It is a broken system. Kumioko (talk) 04:04, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

  Umm, what do you mean? Except for self-imposed blocks or egregious cases of block abuse (e.g. the innocent admins whom Robdurbar blocked), unblocking yourself is grounds for immediate desysopping and arbitration — besides the fact that you're wheel warring, you're abusing the tools to pretty much the utmost extent, so immediate desysopping and arbitration are inevitable, not just likely. Yes, you can do it, but it's tatamount to wiki-suicide. Finally, please indent your comment and mine — the current format makes it hard to tell that your comment is separate from King of Hearts' comment. Nyttend (talk) 04:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

  Something can be done if people are willing to stand together against the bully. I told him clearly that AN/I had reached a "consensus or near consensus" that stating Prioryman's name is not outing. His response was to piss on AN/I i.e. on all of you. AN/I i.e. the community need to show some guts and say that individual admins cannot overrule a community consensus. Only Arbcom, Jimbo or the community itself can overrule a community consensus not some bighead admin who thinks he's Judge Dredd. Sandstein is not the law and the imposition of ultra vires bogus warnings and bogus sanctions in violation of WP:INVOLVED does not make him the law. That's what the community needs to tell him. The proposed block is just a hook to hang sanctioning of Sandstein's willful defiance of the community's previously established consensus and willful abuse of his powers on. I did not want this thread to be about whether I was unfairly treated or to rehash the old ground of whether Prioryman can be outed or not, the community on this board have already expressed their view on that, I wanted it to be about Sandstein being out of control and proposing a block was the best way to do this. So people, whether or not you vote for him to be blocked make it clear to Sandstein that there are limits on what he can do and those limits are that he cannot overrule this board or anywhere else the community expresses its view and that he cannot impose sanctions on people for pointing out that he is acting against community consensus.--Peter cohen (talk) 04:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

  Not everyone believes that consensus applies to AE. [7] AE is a creature of ArbCom, but can you find anything that says what is in its remit? Or what is considered to be due process? Maybe I don't understand this--I am a relatively new user--but as far as I can tell, the AE admin is set up to be an independent Super Arb, with no checks and balances, no oversight. Neotarf (talk) 10:15, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

  AE is not a creature of WP:ARBCOM, it's a self-selecting WP:LOCALCONSENSUS of editors, most of whom happen to have the admin bit, who want to run WP:ANI with fewer checks and balances, specifically focused on the outcome of WP:RFARB cases (except where they inevitably scope-creep it to include more and more authority), and pretend that it's somehow magically immune to any form of community watchdogging or dispute resolution. It's Wikipedia's equivalent of the USA-PATRIOT Act's secret, unconstitutional tribunals to illegally detain and punish people accused of certain things. It's abuse, and the community's confused tolerance of this abuse, is one of the reasons I don't volunteer my time here any longer. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 09:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I have my gripes about some of his actions too, but I can also try to understand where Sandstein is coming from. Yes, he's officious and autocratic. He isn't averse to bringing out the truncheon to restore order, and also waves it around when he doesn't need it. If he wasn't, he wouldn't be so feared, and people will be gaming him like they game other admins. Yes, he has done damage and driven away good editors, but OTOH WP would be a more chaotic place without some strict policing. I'd say he was more often right but he also occasionally gets things wrong too. But when he does, he goes running to Arbcom for backup. Oh, I do wish he would apologise every now and again. It would complement the inevitable fallibility which is a human trait. -- Ohc ^¡digame!_{¿que pasa?} 04:21, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - Sandstein has a function as the hangin' judge of Arbitration Enforcement but he should be cautioned that it is not his fief and that he is not operating in a vacuum or on his own authority. Carrite (talk) 06:09, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support He was just here days ago for a bad block and showed no comprehension of what he did wrong. He's habitually "ruling" like a one man Arbcom (lawyerly interpretations and "can't appeal" judgements), to the extent he is separating himself above fellow volunteers. The comment that no appeal could be made on Wiki was troubling. (Is he going to block this whole collection here now?) He won't get the message without some clip of the wings. I generally don't like blocking people (even "enemies" and we've never clashed), but I think a short block would send a message here.TCO (talk) 09:33, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. I'm confused on what we are allowed to say and not say. Are we allowed to say Prioryman=ChrisO? The Noticeboard on Former Administrators says this explicitly: [8]TCO (talk) 09:33, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I think you're allowed to say that. The point of contention is whether you're allowed to give the ChrisO's full last name. Thanks to the Barbara Streisand effect, everyone now knows their last name if they didn't already. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 09:52, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Even if I would not have acted as Sandstein did (I would had preferred an attempt of discussion before the warnings), his explaination below appears quite convincing and I definitely agree with the block of Drg55 (especially as Drg55 was previously warned about that and ignored the warnings repeatedly publishing the assumed outing). Cavarrone 09:48, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support I don't know what this "complicated series of links and logical inferences" that Sandstein refers to is, when Prioryman identifies himself as ChrisO on his own user page, and there is an existing public statement by ChrisO of his real name. None of that is private or redacted information, thus explicitly permitted to be referred to by our rule on "outing". However, even though I'm protected by policy it's apparent that a number of people are acting completely out of control and ignoring policy - so I won't mention it. I have no desire to see myself on the end of a block from one of these self-appointed Judge Dredd characters, although that's doing a disservice to Judge Dredd, who always acts within the law. — Scott • talk 10:18, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Semi-Support Not a block, but certainly prohibited from AE actions as per below. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose generally per Tarc (medal? not so much but AE discretion is appropriate) and a random AN/I thread that the OP points to is no substantive nor procedural hurdle. AN/I does not establish policy for all time, nor does it establish Arbitration Decisions, it deals with incidents (sometimes chaotically). Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:25, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban from WP:AE as first choice, and a block as a second choice In my opinion, this comment posted below by sandstein is the kicker, as it shows that he doesn't seem to understand when AE is appropriate and when it is overkill.

"where you (Dennis Brown) see AE as a giant hammer to be used only in exceptional cases, I see it as an ordinary screwdriver (or mop), as one of the many tools an admin may and should use on a daily basis to do their routine duty. " -- Sandstein, below

Tazerdadog (talk) 19:40, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose blocking is unwarranted. Discussing the issue and (possibly) overturning the sanctions is the appropriate thing to do when faced with a controversial admin action. WP:RFC/U and WP:RFAR are the place to go when there's a history of problematic use of tools. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:41, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. You don't block an admin just because some or all of the community disagrees with the admin's interpretation and exercise of policy (especially when it hasn't even been determined that there is a community consensus yet one way or the other). This is especially true when the said admin has not demonstrated any unwillingness to follow the community consensus. In fact, Sandstein has shown good faith by trying to explain in detail his understanding of the policy, and has gone farther by requesting clarification in a neutral manner from the ArbCom about how they interpret their discretionary sanctions to be applied - which shows that Sandstein is aware that some members of the community disaree with his interpretation and that a clarification is needed before further decisions are made. This is all what we expect an admin to do in a situation like this. Blocking Sandstein in these circumstances is a patently ridiculous suggestion. Singularity42 (talk) 22:42, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: Blocking would be too drastic. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:58, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. If only Sandstein were just employing a "gun-toting sheriff" model, as someone called it. It's a Judge Dredd "I am the law!", judge-jury-and-executioner model, as my fate at his hands amply demonstrates (I cover this in more detail in a subsection later). This new case is just part of a long-standing, to-hell-with-the-consequences attitude of superiority and trigger-happy abuse of adminship on Sandstein's part. Overturning the sanctions? Definitely. Blocking? Given the damage Sandstein's been doing, it's about time, but I doubt ANI would ever go that far (when's the last time ANI ever took any non-wrist-slap action against any admin at all?). RFC/U? Pointless and toothless. RFARB? By all means, but who has time for that legalistic morass that almost always sides with admins and against non-admins anyway? Short of desysoping, some kind of defanging is seriously in order, like a topic-ban from banning, blocking, warning or otherwise sanctioning any other editors for any reason for a year, perhaps, including administrative participation in AE and AN/ANI where he does the most harm; there are lots of far less destructive and antagonistic things someone can do with administrator privileges, that are better suited to restraining Sandstein's aggressive, repressive behavior pattern. [Un-disclaimer: No one canvassed my appearance here; possible resolution of Sandstein's continued modus operandi of censorious, arrogant abuse of the admin bit is one of the loose ends I still log in occasionally for, after resigning as a regular Wikipedia editor in the wake of Sandstein's months-long campaign of pointed, personal harassment against me.] — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 09:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

  PS, as to the specifics of this case: Just because the "Church" of Scientology has lied to the IRS and falsely obtained tax exempt status as a presumptively legitimate religious institution doesn't mean it actually is one. There's about 15 mountains of proof that Scientology's founder specifically set it up as a scam, and it's been banned as a criminal organization under racketeering and similar laws by several countries now, as well as been continually embroiled in more US litigation, including criminal charges against it (up to an including murder), than virtually any other organization other than mob syndicates. We do not offer special deference out of "religious respect and tolerance" for people who think the earth is flat or that grown men having sex with young boys is right and a right; the fact that the Flat Earth Society and the North American Man/Boy Love Association are real organizations with members who really believe in their respective messages doesn't mean we have to start treating them like Buddhism or Episcopalianism. Scientology is not magically immune to WP:FRINGE, WP:UNDUE, WP:CIVILPOV, etc., etc., just because they claim to be a religion. They're a patently fake religion, and everyone knows that. Censuring regular editors for not beating the bush out this fact is way off-kilter.

  So is trying to hide behind bogus privacy issues that don't really exist in this case. It's like corporate trade secret, or an elected official's sexual affair – when the secret is out, it's just not a secret any more; the information genie does not go back in the bottle, sorry. Don't treat Wikipedia's editorship like a pack of morons by playing infantile "let's pretend" games, much less harming good editors' reputations in the course of trying to force everyone to play them. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 09:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

How is "earth is flat" different from the belief that "God created the world in six days and consecrated the seventh after giving mankind his first commandment: "be fruitful and multiply"." Beliefs are beliefs, you cannot juxtapose them against scientific facts and ridicule them. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 09:50, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Anyone who proposes or supports promptly blocking an admin at ANI on the flimsy grounds presented here without an in depth look and discussion of the issues, and without looking at the issues is either 1. an idiot 2. has an axe to grind. I know several do have an axe to grind from certain off-wiki criticism forums ... IRWolfie- (talk) 14:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I've disagreed with Sandstein on occasions before. But disagreement is not a reason to take action against, certainly not at this level. I see nothing here to warrant such actions.--Paul McDonald (talk) 19:08, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. If there is a problem with an AE enforcer, that is an issue that needs to be taken on by ArbCom. If they feel that Sandstein is overstepping his authority on that board, they should be the ones that tell him. Sjakkalle (Check!) 06:03, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. I wasn't around when the Scientology Arbcom case was being debated (apparently it is a hot potato still), but I haven't been able to find any indication that Prioryman has posted his own name anywhere on-Wiki, nor having consented to others using his full name. To keep discussions and article-writing constructive and avoid any conflicts, administrators may and should issue DS/AE warnings. This was correctly done by Sandstein in this case. LiquidWater 10:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Per above. Also, I seriously wonder when I can stop hearing about him making controversial/wrong actions and abusing his powers. It's been months already. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 10:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Sandstein is the one admin who actually has a thick enough skin to consistently use AE like it is intended to be used. If ArbCom wants him to do things differently, they are capable of refining the AE rules. Jclemens (talk) 05:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support per Scott Martin. GregJackP Boomer! 14:48, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Having visited the AE page, the only conclusion I can draw is that Sandstein is the only Admin who is actively involved in that forum. I'm not surprised if some users come to the conclusion that there are ownership issues here but, frankly, there should be at least half a dozen active Admins weighing in and, in a cursory view, that doesn't seem to be the case. The problem is not with Sandstein, it's with the fact that he/she seems to be the only (or one of the few) Admins willing to resolve cases there. So, of course, there are going to be people unhappy with his/her decisions.

The solution is not for a ban or block on Sandstein (who is really taking on a thankless job) and instead bring in more Admins to resolve cases on the AE page, so more points of view are heard from. I think people would quickly see that Admins hold to some common guidelines and do not impose sanctions arbitrarily. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 19:20, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Response by Sandstein

Hi, everybody. I'll try to be as clear as I can in explaining what I think happened here as is possible in a case that involves private and oversighted information. Because of this, I think that this matter is not suitable for a noticeboard discussion to begin with.

A few days ago, another administrator imposed a Scientology topic ban on Drg55, as a discretionary sanction per the arbitration case WP:ARBSCI. Drg55 appealed this sanction to WP:ANI, from where it was moved to WP:AE, a noticeboard I often work on. In the course of the appeal discussion, Drg55 repeatedly published what they claimed was the real name of another editor who, it appears, is active in editing Scientology topics from a point of view opposite to that of Drg55. Drg55 continued to reinsert that alleged name even after being warned about it by the banning administrator. In my view also, publishing that name was in no way necessary for the purpose of the appeal, that is, for the purpose of discussing whether or not Drg55 should remain topic-banned for their previous actions. Consequently, I indefinitely blocked Drg55 for WP:OUTING, advising them how to appeal the block offwiki. I asked the oversight team to suppress the outing edits, which they did.

I was then contacted by The Devil's Advocate and Peter cohen. They argued that the actions by Drg55 were not outing because, they said, the alleged identity of the editor at issue had previously been revealed onwiki by way of a complicated series of links and logical inferences between old arbitration cases and other old pages. I disagreed: Even if the editor at issue had voluntarily published their (full) identity onwiki at some point in the past (which it seems to me did not happen, but I'll not link to the related material in order not to further this ongoing breach of privacy), this would not justify another editor repeatedly belting out the alleged name in public for no other apparent reason than to spite the other editor, who clearly does not want their identity to be made public, as is their right. That is WP:Harrassment, and prohibited. Additionally, the policy WP:Outing provides that "If the previously posted information has been removed by oversight, then repeating it on Wikipedia is considered outing." I take this to mean that by deciding to oversight the edits by Drg55 (and later also edits by The Devil's Advocate), the oversighters have authoritatively determined that repeating the information they contain is outing, which supersedes any previous discussions and makes continued discussions superfluous.

For these reasons, I warned The Devil's Advocate and Peter cohen against raising this matter on a community noticeboard - not to insulate myself against criticism, as my block remains subject to normal administrator review through the unblock process, but to prevent any noticeboard discussion from drawing undue attention to private information and from becoming a forum in which the attempts at outing would very likely continue. It appears that these concerns were justified, as at least one editor above has made what I consider another attempt at outing. Because of their insistence to the contrary, I banned The Devil's Advocate from any discussion of the identity of the editor at issue, as a discretionary sanction per WP:ARBSCI.

As concerns the specific charge by Peter cohen of acting as an administrator while involved, I am a bit puzzled. To my knowledge, I have had no previous disputes with Peter cohen, or any (non-administrative) involvement in the topic of Scientology. In fact, I was unacquainted with Drg55 and the editor who they were trying to out, or the previous discussions about this matter, prior to my actions described above. I even blocked (too hastily perhaps, in retrospect) another editor for harassing Drg55 because of their faith; this was previously discussed here. It seems that Peter cohen believes that I am involved because I warned him not to discuss the details of my block of Drg55 on a noticeboard. I can see how that might create the impression that I wanted to use AE authority to deflect criticism from my block, but I don't see how I could have acted otherwise and still prevented a noticeboard discussion from contributing to the realization of the very same privacy risks that the block was intended to address (as has indeed been the case with this discussion). Any advice on how to handle this better in the future, if possible, would be welcome. At any rate, as I said, the block remains subject to review through various non-noticeboard venues such as WP:UTRS and WP:BASC, and is in fact actively being questioned by another administrator on Drg55's talk page, so I don't quite see why an additional noticeboard discussion would be urgently necessary.

As regards the general concerns voiced above (mostly by people I sanctioned at AE or their friends, it seems) that I am acting too high-handedly, in a cowboy-like or authoritarian manner etc. at AE, let me first stress that I firmly believe that everybody, especially longtime editors and administrators like me, is accountable for their actions and should be ready to respond to any good-faith concerns about them. I attempt to do so as best as I can. However, in the context of arbitration enforcement and especially discretionary sanctions, it is important to understand that, by design, these processes do not work like most parts of Wikipedia on the basis of communal discussion and consensus-building. Rather, the Arbitration Committee has explicitly charged individual administrators to unilaterally react to policy violations in certain sensitive areas according to their own discretion. One may legitimately disagree with this system, but in that case your beef is with the Arbitration Committee which designed it, not with me. Of course, admins are no less fallible than any other person. It is possible (and statistically likely) that several of the AE actions I made were mistaken. But if that is so, the proper way to engage me in discussions about it and to hold me accountable is to submit an explicit appeal against a specific sanction to the community or to the Arbitration Committee, as provided for in the procedures linked to in every sanction, rather than to make broad allegations on noticeboards. To my knowledge, I must have made several hundred AE actions by now, necessarily angering many people in the process, but I can't recall even one case where an AE action by me was overturned on appeal against my objections, and exceedingly few that were appealed in the first place. But in general, I view AE as a support function for the Arbitration Committee, and, as I have previously said, I am more than ready to stand down from AE duty if even one arbitrator believes that I am not operating in accordance with the Committee's or the community's expectations.

I hope that I have addressed all serious concerns, and am of course ready to answer any questions that do not involve private information. Although that may have to wait a bit, because I won't have much more time for Wikipedia today.  Sandstein  06:12, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

The block of drg is not the issue that was raised, but your invoking Arbcom warnings to the users who disagreed with it and telling them they could not complain about your actions on Wiki.TCO (talk) 10:00, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

+1 — Scott • talk 10:22, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I address this in more detail below.  Sandstein  16:07, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Prioryman gave up his rights to privacy RE scientology articles when as a prolific anti-scientologist activist off-wiki (under his full name), he transplanted his battleground to wikipedia under the username ChrisO. A cunning disguise you must admit. Given that he was sanctioned and banned from the scientology area - going back to it once his ban wore off while trying to suppress all mention of his previous and off-wiki identity is a joke. It would make a mockery for any sort of future COIN discussion for a start.

As for oversight - reporting something to oversight and then using the fact it was oversighted as evidence you were right is ridonculous. Oversight works on the principle of 'if in doubt, nuke it'. I doubt they would have checked Prioryman's history to see if revealing his identity is outing (Its not. And continuing to say it is, is provably wrong with no need to go off-wiki). When questioned on this, your response was to shut down discussion and sanction based solely on the fact that people disagreed with you. The proper response to a question of your judgement is to refer it to your fellow administrators, not to use discretionary sanctions in an attempt to silence dissent. AE exists to provide quick resolution of previously arbitrated cases. It is *not* there as a big stick to attempt to intimidate editors with as you have done. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:06, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I do not seem to have been clear enough: If the editor did not voluntarily reveal their full name on-wiki, as seems to be the case, they remain entitled to that full name being treated as private in all but exceptional circumstances (such as when it is relevant to decide a serious misconduct case), even if you believe that the full name is easily inferred. But even if the editor did at some past time reveal their full name on-wiki, they remain entitled to protection from harassment, and repeatedly trumpeting out (for no legitimate reason) a name, which the editor clearly (at least now) wishes to be treated as private, is sanctionable harassment.  Sandstein  16:23, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

OiD, the off-wiki activities by the person you claim to be Prioryman (has he said anywhere on-wiki that he is that person?) are totally irrelevant to his edits on WP, who have been, to my understanding, constructive and good. Revealing your first name and last letter of your surname does not mean that you wish to have your full name, including surname, outed. And how can we know that he actually is the person some claim him to be? Chris O is quite a common combination of names. LiquidWater 15:26, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

"As regards the general concerns voiced above (mostly by people I sanctioned at AE or their friends, it seems..." There you are assuming bad faith again. You have decided that people cannot simply decide that you are out of control but are rather doing it out of revenge.

I pointed out to you yesterday that the community on this page has within the last year reached consensus or near consensus that it is not outing to name ChrisO/Prioryman. You set yourself above them and tried to intimidate me into not bringing your decision to overrule the community back to the board where the decision was reached. You are not Jimmy Wales. You are not Arbcom. You are not WMF staff carrying out an office action. You have no right to overrule community decisions reached at this board but you have decided to do so even when it has been pointed out that you are doing so and you have attempted to use your admin powers to prevent someone from taking you to this board. However I don't care if I get topic banned from the scientology stuff. To the best of my knowledge I have never edited an article in that topic area. I consider them a dangerous bunch of cranks and actually think that Cultwatch and the likes have done a valuable service in highlighting the abuses by the Scientology hierarchy. If I read the interchanges between Prioryman and scientology cultists elsewhere on the internet, I will almost certainly find myself agreeing with him. My raising the issue has nothing to do with wanting to provide support Drg55, someone who I gather is probably a cultist, it is about trying to prevent an out of control admin, namely you, from setting himself above the community. You have violated WP:Involved because you have used your admin powers against someone previously uninvolved in the Scientology topic area simply for questioning your decision. I did not criticize Prioryman/ChrisO in the post I made to your talk page. I criticised you. How much more involved can you be than immediately taking action against someone who has directly criticised you and only you in the post that you object to? --Peter cohen (talk) 10:57, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

When you look at many of the names who rushed in to oppose Sandstein, it does not require an assumption of bad faith to realize that many of them do so because they have an axe to grind. Also, in light of your first sentence, your second, "You have decided that people cannot simply decide that you are out of control but are rather doing it out of revenge", is that absolute height of hypocrisy. Resolute 13:25, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, I for one haven't had any significant interaction with Sandstein, TDA, or peter cohen, so take care that "many" doesn't equal "all". Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 13:30, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Quite right, and that is why I specifically did not say "all". Unfortunately, the suspect editors (particularly those with a dislike of Sandstein personally, and those who attack simply because he represents part of the 'system') makes it tougher on those, like you, who are coming at it from a neutral POV. I'm not going to opine on whether Sandstein's warnings are proper per the outing policy and the arbcom cases he cites, but I do have to ask why certain people seem to make a habit of going out of their way to equate one name to another. Many of them come from a forum where the blocked editor who started all of this rushed to whine upon being blocked. Resolute 13:52, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

@Writ_Keeper, I think Resolute was trying to point to me in his statements. Whenever I make a statement about an Admin on the rogue he makes statements like that. He seems to like attempting to discredit me to call attention away from the real problems. I have stated repeatedly that I don't have a problem with all admins and in fact only a minority. It just so happens that Sandstein falls into that minority population of admins that do whatever they want, whenever they want and are allowed to get away with it. Kumioko (talk) 17:21, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Sandstein, for God's sake, look at the facts.

1. User:ChrisO redirects to User:Prioryman. The very ARBSCI page where you logged your sanctions makes clear that they are the same person. If you think that information needs redacting, then you just haven't done your homework.
2. The "editor's alleged identity" had not "previously been revealed onwiki by way of a complicated series of links and logical inferences between old arbitration cases and other old pages". It was revealed when the arbitrators noted, in a public finding of fact, that the editor had cited his own works. The editor contested that finding on the Proposed Decision talk page. In the course of that he clearly, twice, referred to these self-published sources as his "own work", and posted two diff links of himself removing his name and the reference to his "own work" from an article. He has never asked to have that information redacted or oversighted. In fact I see no sign whatsoever that he asked you to take action in this matter to protect his identity.

You refused to read the links editors dropped on your page, and instead took admin action against them. That is the definition of "Shoot first, ask questions later." Please have the good grace to undo your warning and sanction of TDA and Peter cohen. In addition, while I would endorse your topic ban of Drg55 per my comment at AE, his indefinite block has no basis in WP:OUTING policy, which requires that any prior self-disclosure on wiki should have been redacted or oversighted. That requirement simply isn't fulfilled here, making WP:OUTING moot. In addition, there was an arguable conflict of interest, due to the editor's off-wiki involvement with the article subject, making it at least arguable that raising his identity was justified. COIs like that are routinely discussed in Wikipedia if there has been prior on-wiki disclosure, and I have never seen anybody banned for it. Please undo his indefinite block accordingly, so that justice is done. Andreas JN466 11:09, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

So back in 2009, Prioryman got accused – falsely, as it happens, and out of the blue, by an arbitrator working on questionable evidence cooked up in camera – of an act of COI editing, in such a way that he essentially had no option of defending himself without implicitly confirming the identity that the arbitrator had chosen to disclose. That is a very far cry from a "voluntary" disclosure. Prioryman has since repeatedly made it clear that he wishes his identity to be treated as non-public, and under our privacy rules he has a right to have that wish respected. Period. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

The finding of fact that Prioryman contested remained part of the final decision of the case. Its assertions are supported by diffs. And if the arbitration committee chooses to disclose an editor's identity in a finding of fact (which in this case was not outing either, as the editor had owned up to those being his own writings previously, on Wikipedia), you do not get to have an end-run around their decision by sanctioning people who refer to that decision. Your admin privileges do not give you the right to retrospectively censor public arbitration decisions. Andreas JN466 11:49, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Arbcom does not have the right to override the outing policy either. The "findings" Prioryman contested were those proposed by Roger Davies [9], which demonstrably contained several obvious untruths (as you should remember, since you were there). All the situation of "self-admitted" identity was caused by the debate that became necessary because of that slipshod attack piece by Davies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:09, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

You are welcome to your opinion of User:Roger Davies, but his finding (revised, with diffs added) eventually passed 10–0, with one abstention. You do not get to overrule arbcom decisions four years after the fact. You're supposed to uphold them. So instead, now you're accusing Arbcom of violating WP:OUTING policy too. This is ridiculous, and a revision of history. No one made that argument four years ago, as the identity was acknowledged on wiki well before ARBSCI. If you are so fundamentally in disagreement with this arbcom decision, I suggest a more appropriate response would be to recuse from all related arbitration enforcement. Your actions with regard to Drg55 were as much at variance with WP:OUTING policy and the ARBSCI decision as Sandstein's. Andreas JN466 12:36, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

The above replies to Sandstein are stirring, but totally miss the point. Sandstein made it abundantly clear that he thinks gratuitously mentioning the real-life identity of an editor who does not currently display his name is at least highly undesirable. People can object to Sandstein's decision at AE without making a WP:POINT by publicizing the identity of an editor. FWIW, I hate Gibraltarpedia too, but pursuing Prioryman via Sandstein does not seem desirable. Johnuniq (talk) 11:44, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Well they kind of tried to do that in a manner more quietly with him directly. It resulted in Sandstein sanctioning them. So any further mentioning of identities is pretty much on him at the moment. Its impossible to have a discussion without at least skirting around the specifics (note most people above have carefully not mentioned the actual name). The only alternative would be to not make any reference to it at all, which is undoubtedly what Sandstein wanted in the first place. But not supported by outing policy. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:51, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

For the record, neither Peter cohen nor TDA mentioned his name. They argued, based on the letter and spirit of policy, that it wasn't outing to do so, while themselves refraining from doing so. Sandstein still warned and sanctioned them. He needs to undo those actions. Andreas JN466 12:01, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that is correct because a comment by TDA at User talk:Sandstein (17:53, 8 July 2013) has been oversighted. Johnuniq (talk) 12:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

That is very convenient, isn't it? TDA has asserted off-wiki that he never mentioned the name, but merely linked to ARBSCI and ANI. Peter cohen made no such mention either, as you can verify for yourself, but still received the same warning. Andreas JN466 12:49, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

As I just pointed out "off-wiki" though, I happened to see the post in question last night before it was oversighted. To say that TDA is not being exactly forthcoming regarding its contents would be an understatement. Tarc (talk) 13:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I certainly did not name Prioryman and the only link I inserted was to the archived ANI thread which did not name him either. I also think that you are confused about the matter you mentioned offline as what you referred to was in a comment by a third party which I note has been redacted but has not be revdeled or oversighted--Peter cohen (talk) 13:20, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Facepalm As Peter cohen says, you are confused. First, the post you saw and quote off-wiki was not oversighted, it was redacted. Second, it was made last night, here in this discussion. Third, it was not even made by TDA, and's got nothing to do with what Sandstein sanctioned TDA for. So you've basically accused TDA of lying for nothing. Perhaps Sandstein or an oversighter could confirm what exactly TDA did say on Sandstein's talk page, two days ago, and whether it did contain non-public information. I believe it did not; it's pretty apparent what it did contain from the discussion on TDA's talk page: links to ANI and ARBSCI, much like Peter's post that got a similar reception from Sandstein. Andreas JN466 14:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

As I said over there, my mistake. There's lot of jerkish behavior going on today, and with all the pitchfork-waving and burning-Sandstein-in-effigy going on, it's hard to tell one jerkish behavior from another in this topic. Tarc (talk) 14:56, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for the reply Sandstein, but I still don't understand how you invoked ARBSCI in your warnings (and topic ban) to TDA and Peter Cohen. The general sanctions are for edits pertaining to Scientology, and I don't see how edits mentioning Prioryman's previous account (and the edit that you wound up topic banning TDA for did no more than that) could reasonably be said to fall under that scope; indeed, the creation of the Prioryman account didn't even occur until after the Arbcase, so I don't see how remedies from what seems to be a tangentially-related at best arbcase could be used to effect sanctions on peter cohen and TDA. The block on Drg is to one side, really; what I'm wondering about are the warnings and topic ban that happened after. Can you explain your thought process on that? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 13:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Certainly. The dispute in which the users at issue inserted themselves was about whether an editor appealing a Scientology topic ban may publicize the (alleged) real name of an opposing editor in the Scientology topic area who is (allegedly) active in real life as a Scientology opponent. This places the whole issue square within the scope of WP:ARBSCI. Now, my thought process about the warnings and topic ban was: I perceive (rightly or wrongly) that there is a outing problem where some people appear to be intent on outing another editor. There are people knocking at my door who (wrongly, in my view) insist that it is allowed to aggressively publicize the name and who seem to be intent on inviting just that by opening onwiki discussions about it. Now, how do I prevent this? By blocking these people? That would be excessive. I prefer a minimum-force approach: First I warn them not to open on-wiki discussions about the matter (because these would invite more outing actions, if only by virtue of the Streisand effect), and when they refuse to do so, I prevent them from doing so by way of a narrowly tailored topic ban. Of course I use AE authority to do so, because that is what discretionary sanctions are designed to do: to prevent editors from "seriously fail[ing] to adhere to ... any expected standards of behavior" in the Scientology topic area, such as outing.  Sandstein  16:07, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Sandstein, using a WP:ARBSCI warning seems massively overkill here but I'm trying to be open minded. It is a giant hammer that prevents review from other admin, and should only be used when there is no other reasonable choice. Using in this situation does look odd and I haven't seen you explain why it was necessary. There are a limited number of options here: 1. It was appropriate but you haven't explained why. 2. It was abusive and done to shut discussion down. 3. It was a bone-headed mistake to which you have yet to apologize. If there are other options that I haven't thought of, I would be happy to hear them, but I don't think you have explained your reasons for the Arb sanction warning adequately. That is my concern above all else. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 14:05, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• I hope that I have explained my approach in the reply above; if not then please let me know. The issue may be one of perception: where you see AE as a giant hammer to be used only in exceptional cases, I see it as an ordinary screwdriver (or mop), as one of the many tools an admin may and should use on a daily basis to do their routine duty. There is nothing in WP:AC/DS to suggest that discretionary sanctions should be used only exceptionally, sparingly or as a last resort.  Sandstein  16:07, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm taken aback that you would consider the threat of Arb authorized sanctions as "ordinary". When you use them, you instantly prevent every admin from reviewing that block. You place your judgement above the collective Admin corps. Obviously, these types of sanctions exist because there are times when this is the best solution, but this is still a drastic step that common sense says should be used with some hesitation and caution. By its very nature, it was designed to be an exception to normal process, not the rule. Perhaps because you work with Arb sanctions daily, your view has become jaded and you see them as "ordinary", but I doubt that the rest of the community does. They more likely sees them as a nuclear bomb: a powerful deterent that is necessary and sometimes used, but shouldn't be lobbed around so flippantly. I think blocking you is unwarranted, but I think that your view of "ordinary" is inconsistent with the community's. Whether or not it was justified in this particular case, the casualness you've indicated you will use them here is a bit disturbing. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:09, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Although I disagree with this view of discretionary sanctions as exceptional, I understand why you may feel differently. This may be a worthwhile subject of a request for clarification - after all, being a lawyer, I have a natural tendency to just follow the written rules, and if WP:AC/DS does not tell me that these tools are to be used only exceptionally, I will continue to use them as routinely (where necessary) as any other tool such as rollback or speedy deletion. I would like to point out, though, that these sanctions do not "place my judgement above the collective Admin corps". Even in the hopefully rare cases where another admin disagrees with my sanction and we can't find an agreement, a consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE can overrule me on appeal (or at least I think that's ArbCom's current idea: there's a long-outstanding unanswered request for clarification of the appeals procedure).  Sandstein  17:26, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

The very fact that you can not define the method for overturning the appeal by fellow admin reinforces the reasons why this is an exceptional tool, and not an ordinary one. I would also remind you that "Best practice includes seeking additional input prior to applying a novel sanction or when a reasonable, uninvolved editor may question whether the sanction is within the scope of the relevant case;" [10] applies. The problem is that discretionary sanctions are easy to abuse, to allow an admin to maliciously place his own judgement above those of the admin corps as a whole by locking them out, which would be a textbook example of admin abuse as only admin can issue these warnings. This is why they have to be used as exceptions and with clear reasoning provided, as a safety measure. They are Arb rulings and procedures designed to be exceptions to community policy, thus used only when there is a clear and obvious reason to bypass the stated polices. There is no possible way for it to be more obvious they are exceptions to standard Wikipedia policy. Compare it to "exigent circumstances", which doesn't void the 4th Amendment to the Constitution, it only provides an exception where there is a clear and obvious need to bypass the checks and balances built into the system. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:46, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I did consider asking others per the clause you indicated, but determined that (a) there likely wasn't enough time considering that the users at issue might at any time decide to launch a privacy-breaching noticeboard discussion such as this one, and (b) asking for advice onwiki would have defeated the purpose of the sanction, and doing anything offwiki would be unaccountable. As to your other point, any admin abusing AE (like any other tool) to gain a personal advantage in a dispute is responsible to the Arbitration Committee.  Sandstein  18:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Not exclusively. The Arbitration Committee typically only becomes involved the community is asking for a desysoping. Arbs have made it clear that other remedies are at the disposal of the community. In a recent Arb case, Salvio commented (and no one argued against) "in my opinion, the community may ban a sysop from using part of his toolset, provided this is not a way to surreptitiously desysop him". I haven't seen anyone request a desysop here and strongly would recommend against it anyway. I'm hoping that it doesn't come down to sanctions, but I think you should be aware that the community does have that option outside of an Arb hearing. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I find myself concurring ... I'm currently unable to deal with a specific unblock request that I feel meets WP:GAB/WP:ROPE, but I feel unable to do so as it's marked with AE, and Sandstein does not agree with me (✉→BWilkins←✎) 17:18, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, resolving such disagreements is what the appeals process is for, is it not? Though we haven't really talked about it except for a very brief exchange of messages.  Sandstein  17:26, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

There's an appeals process; so use it. If it wasn't an AE block, and another admin disagrees with an unblock would you have just removed it anyway? IRWolfie- (talk) 14:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I gotta agree with Dennis. AE sanctions may not explicitly set the AE admin's judgement over all others', but it effectively does so by formally restricting the ability of other admins to overturn it. Granted, AE areas are ones where these restrictions might be helpful, since they're contentious issues. But that's all the more reason to keep the scope of arbitration enforcement as narrow as reasonably possible. Moreover, while I see your reasoning for linking TDA and Peter Cohen's edits to the arbcase, I don't think I can agree with them; it's just too tenuous. If Arbcom really isn't in the business of setting policy, then its remedies have to be at least reasonably strictly interpreted (since otherwise, they really are just setting precedents and policy), and interpreting "criticism by unrelated editors of an action taken upon another editor who was involved in Scientology" as falling under Scientology discretionary sanctions is just too much of a stretch for me. You're probably following the letter of the law, but I think you've missed the spirit. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:33, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Note that the 5th Pillar's take on policy, ie: "Their principles and spirit matter more than their literal wording, and sometimes improving Wikipedia requires making an exception.". This must apply to all things here, as the 5P is the authority from which all policy flows. Discretionary sanctions are the exceptions to ordinary policy on dispute resolution. This clearly means they are not ordinary and do not trump policy, they just provide a useful means to ignore some of the rules of policy in very limited circumstances where the needs fits an WP:IAR exception. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:09, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment This is all rather complicated but it is worth focusing on a couple of points. First, it is unclear why it is necessary to use the real name of an editor, whether that editor has made it public or not. Short of a 'you must now call me this', we should err on the side of never doing so. Second, there may be cases where associating an editor with his/her real identity is helpful, for example when it becomes necessary to show that a particular editor has a real life agenda that they are bringing to Wikipedia. But, in that case, the revelation should be a part of a carefully constructed argument that is presented to ArbCom, preferably including the actual public disclosure of identity only after arbcom approval. In the situation at hand, it appears that the only reason for using the real name of an editor was that it had been previously revealed onwiki and that's not really a good reason. All this was done in the context of discussions on Scientology. While perhaps a discretionary sanction warning was on the heavier side of the admin action spectrum, I do think that Sandstein's actions are not outré enough to be actionable in any way. --regentspark (comment) 16:34, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - regardless of whether Sandstein deserves sanctions for this, it is pretty evident that this wasn't WP:OUTING in any way, shape or form, and nor does ARBSCI apply. Consensus is pretty much with that, surely? So drg55's block, which is solely for outing, and isn't for any other misdemeanours, should be lifted. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:46, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Evidently I disagree with that. Even if it wasn't outing (which I believe it was), it was at least harassment for the reasons indicated by RegentsPark above, and therefore sanctionable.  Sandstein  18:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Your block was based on outing. If consensus is that it wasn't outing - which does seem to be the case - then the user must be unblocked, or be reblocked for a shorter period with the new rationale. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:54, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
  • You warned/sanctioned two editors merely for linking to a public AN/I discussion and/or a public arbitration case page. Linking to past arbitration decisions and AN/I discussions is an ordinary part of daily community participation and communication. It is why these pages and archives are public. I find it hard to understand why you, as an individual administrator, with neither checkuser nor oversight privileges nor any other functionary status, should arrogate yourself the right to decide which of these arbitration pages and noticeboard discussions the rest of us should be allowed to link to.
  • Outing policy is absolutely clear: an outing can only occur if the self-disclosed information has previously been redacted or oversighted. In this case, it wasn't and hasn't. If you feel so strongly about this case, then please do the work to get that information redacted or oversighted from the arbitration pages concerned, by contacting the arbitration committee. If they comply with your request, and the information is redacted or oversighted, then everybody will be happy to comply with WP:OUTING in turn.
  • Lastly, while I do not think Drg55's article edits were appropriate, and expressed that view at AE, Drg55 was pointing out a very real COI issue, in that his opposing editor had had an active role in publicising the book the article concerned was about. This is the sort of COI that it would be permissible for an editor, especially a newbie, to raise in the case of any other constellation of a book and an online publisher or promoter of said book. Indeed this general type of issue (i.e. online activism) was part of what arbitrators looked at in this case, freely discussed in the case, and reflected in various individual findings of fact, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology#Hkhenson or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology#Tilman or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology#Touretzky – will you be telling editors next they are not allowed to link to those either, and warn and sanction them for doing so under your idiosyncratic interpretation of WP:OUTING?
  • Arbitration case pages are records of community history and lessons learned. You are not entitled to forbid any editor from linking to them in a discussion, or to warn or sanction them for doing so. You are supposed to enforce arbitration results, not censor or alter them. You are inventing your own rules, and that is beyond the powers this community has bestowed upon you. Andreas JN466 21:16, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Point of order: The community can and has overturned AE actions. In fact, the AE instructions specifically say this, "following a clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors at a community discussion noticeboard (such as WP:AN or WP:ANI)." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:29, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• We all know what this scandal is about, and what needs to be done. But everyone who counts has been bought off with Gibraltar money, and there's no one left with the guts to tell it like it is. Warrior of Zen (talk) 11:25, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Clarification request

Many users have raised several interesting points above about which, I think, people can in good faith disagree. I have initiated a request for clarification by the Arbitration Committee at WP:ARCA#Clarification request: Scientology in the hope that this will help bring this drama to a reasonably clear conclusion from which I and/or others may be able to learn something.  Sandstein  22:20, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to vacate and overturn Peter cohen's and The Devil's Advocate's warnings/sanction

1. Peter cohen (talk · contribs) was formally warned by Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) under WP:ARBSCI discretionary sanctions for linking to an archived AN/I discussion on Sandstein's talk page.
2. The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs) was formally warned and then sanctioned by Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) under WP:ARBSCI discretionary sanctions for linking to a past AN/I discussion and an WP:ARBSCI case page, and for naming an editor's previous Wikipedia account (which redirects to his present account, and is identified on the WP:ARBSCI case page as that editor's previous account).

Neither editor mentioned any editor's purported real name in the posts they were warned and/or sanctioned for.

I believe both the warnings and the sanction were inappropriate and lack support in policy. Editors are free and must remain free to reference arbitration case pages and archived noticeboard discussions. I therefore propose that the community overturn the warnings issued to Peter cohen and The Devil's Advocate, and the sanction issued to The Devil's Advocate. --Andreas JN466 21:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Support

1. --Andreas JN466 21:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
2. For those opposed to blocking Sandstein, this is a gentler method to right a wrong and send a message. Shows his actions to restrict debate were wrong. Sends a warning regarding the frequent high-handed invocation of "Arbcom case law" and tendentious Wikilawyering. TCO (talk) 22:21, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
3. Yep, and if for some reason Arbcom thinks the topic ban etc. should stick, they can always be reapplied. I see no reason to wait. Arkon (talk) 23:06, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
4. Support Rules are there to help us produce an encyclopaedia, not as a cunning trap for unwary editors. I see no benefit from this sanction, and believe that it should be rescinded and a note placed on both editors' pages to that effect. RolandR (talk) 23:10, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
5. Whether Sandstein likes it or not, the outing in this case was enshrined by Arbcom. Prohibiting the link to an Arbcom page (or some subsection thereof) in a dispute clearly about the topic covered by the same Arbcom case is even more absurd than the recent attempt to remove the wikipediocracy.com link from the Wikipediocracy page. Someone not using his real name (talk) 23:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
6. Support - I agree that Arbcom needs to clarify but this case clearly identifies why the terms "broadly construed" need to stop being used. It isn't reasonable to assume that a blocking admin will be reasonable in their block, so we shouldn't give them unnecessary latitude to use their own discretion. This case also presents a shocking and dreadful example of the us and them mentality between admins and editors. An admin who makes a mistake that would earn an editor a block, should themselves be blocked. Period. We shouldn't be making exceptions for admins. I have seen several editors above mention that admins should be blocked, desysopped, etc. All these are completely wrong. Kumioko (talk) 23:30, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
7. Support—it's got out of hand. And I used to admire Sandstein's legal skills. Now I just see the damage; and why does ArbCom allow AE to proceed without let, given the departure of among our finest editors because of Sandstein's misplaced cautions, warnings, and blocks? Tony (talk) 02:38, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
8. Support Reading through this jumbo thread, particularly comments by JN466 & Peter Cohen, it is very clear that no outing has occurred. This situation could & should have been avoided by Sandstein explaining their position to TDA and Peter Cohen (instead of trying to stifle discussion by waving the blockhammer). I hope folks around here understand that it can be very depressing for users to have the blockhammer waved at them without explanation, and as an attempt to gag them.OrangesRyellow (talk) 03:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
9. Support a block at this point will not happen as it isn't preventing damage, I do think that this can be a valuable tool to let Sandstein know that AE isn't his private Fiefdom which he often behaves that way. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 03:28, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
10. Support, but I'd go further and vacate/reverse Sandstein's destructive warnings and blocks of Noetica and SMcCandlish as well; maybe we can get them to come back if we show that Sandstein's rampage can be curtailed. Dicklyon (talk) 05:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
11. Support - there is absolutely no valid reason, policy or logic based, for these warnings/topic bans to be applied. REGARDLESS of the validity of Drg55's block, it is plain to see that the warnings were heavy handed from an WP:INVOLVED admin, with no real grounds for them. Most of the oppose votes don't make sense, or aren't policy-based. ARBSCI wasn't oversighted, nor should it have been - if ARBCOM reveal an editor's identity, then it is NOT outing to bring it up again, plain and simple. And regardless of that, there is no way that either user mentioned in this proposal engaged in outing. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:16, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

    Exactly specify why Sandstein is involved, IRWolfie- (talk) 14:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

12. Support What Dicklyon said. –Neotarf (talk) 08:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
13. Support -- Hillbillyholiday ^talk 08:35, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
14. Support Discussion ought not to be stifled. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:50, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
15. Support per Dicklyon, and further vacate Sandstein's other similar false accusations ("warnings"), specifically against Neotarf and Ohconfucius, made at the same time as those against me and Noetica at AE. Correction: I was topic-banned for a month, not blocked (Dicklyon said "blocks", above, and I don't think any of us go blocked during or after that initial "Judge Sandstein" encounter). My topic ban from Sandstein should also be vacated, for the record; though it has already expired, it was a gross abuse of process and remains a bogus black mark on my record as an editor here. I'm going to say all of this, in detail, just once and go away again. I am not here to engage in a big argument with people about any of this, as the facts speak for themselves, and I'd rather eat my own feet that spend a week bickering over interpretational nitpicks with admin "brotherhood" types.

    My topic ban was made by Sandstein wildly un-recusing himself (has anyone else ever done that?!?), after recusing himself because too many others kept clearly said he was too personally involved; he just couldn't resist sticking it to me himself, after harassing me for two months. There wasn't even anything like a consensus for such an action against me; one of the few who suggested something along these lines said I had gone "too far" in successfully reporting a repeat topic-ban violation by someone else, at AE (i.e., other admins agreed with me that the user in question was being disruptive in direct violation of a topic ban after innumerable warnings and second, third, etc., chances, and the user was - get this - violating his topic ban specifically to disrupt AE of all places with personal attacks in a case that didn't involve him, just to personally pick a bone with me; I guess he found a friend in Sandstein). So, just to shut me up and make an illegitimate might-makes-right WP:POINT, I was punished, personally, vindictively, seemingly obsessively, by Sandstein for properly using Wikipedia's dispute resolution system! In the very AE thread Sandstein abused WP:BOOMERANG to censure and topic-ban me in (a later AE report than the one that generated Sandstein's accusation-warnings against me, Noetica, et al.), various other admins were agreeing with my report (about a pattern of blatantly, though sometimes evasively worded, racist attack edits by another user), and only declined to take action when they realized that some of my evidence was too old for their liking. Yet Sandstein simultaneously used evidence at least that old against me: It's a farcically obvious case of a double-standard. This (and there's plenty more - I'm just giving a few highlights from the entire first quarter of 2013, with Sandstein in my face again and again, at one point hyperbolically and psychodramatically seeking a year-long total block against me, simply for being disagreeable) is probably fertile ground for an RFARB case against Sandstein, but I have better things to do with my life right now that waste hours and hours and hours over many days or weeks, possibly even months, proving a case that ArbCom is liable to ignore because it's against an admin, and various people in the IRC in-crowd don't like me for rocking the boat with my loud mouth; I'm not part of the Good Ol' Boy club and never will be.

    I just hope this stuff is useful as an example of what Sandstein's been doing to other – long-time and genuinely constructive – Wikipedians and why this can't continue any longer. Noetica stated (several month ago; I don't know if this will stay true indefinitely) that he would return if his "warning" (false accusation) from Sandstein were vacated/voided as inappropriate/false. I have more than just Sandstein as an issue to raise before devoting any more significant time and effort to this project, so in no way should my comments here be interpreted as any form of quid-pro-quo demand or ultimatum. I am emphatically not saying "rein Sandstein in and I'll come back", but rather "rein Sandstein in because it's the right thing to do; I may not come back regardless". My abuse at Sandstein's hands was the final straw for me, not the first one.

    If anyone doesn't understand why Sandstein's "warnings" in our case (me, Noetica, Neotarf, Ohconfucius) were provably false accusations, it's in their wording. They were not neutrally worded warnings or citations to policy, but direct accusations of wrong-doing, namely of violation of WP:ARBATC's prohibition of making unsupported negative statements about the contributions of other editors in MOS/AT disputes. Yet: a) the statements (against a repeat disruptive editor, first at ANI later at AE - he was forum-shopping at AE to avoid a finding at ANI, and we alerted AE to this fact) were supported, by mountains of evidence at ANI; b) Sandstein refused to read any of it, even after being repeatedly directed to it at ANI, and refused to rescind his accusations even after being provided with this proof that he was wrong; and c) ARBATC cannot rationally apply to ANI/AE meta-discussions about whether particular user conduct patterns are appropriate, just because the underlying dispute somewhere had something to do with a MOS or AT page (otherwise this would be a massive loophole against any form of enforcement for disruptive editing - just involve WP:AT or MOS in some way, and you're immune from criticism as "personalizing style disputes"!)

    Hopefully it's clear how pointless and harmful this stubborn, prideful Sandstein reign of rage has become. His simple refusal to say "oh, yeah, I didn't see that you'd already documented all this at ANI, my bad" and revoking his accusations/warnings has already cost Wikipedia untold amounts of irreplaceable productive editing by multiple long-term, highly active editors, and further eroded many Wikipedian's faith in adminship generally, all to defend Sandstein's personal sense of infallibility and to perversely protect two inveterate, incessant disrupters. Now he's doing it again to people who dare to treat Scientology like the dangerous, fraudulent, criminal organization it is proven to be. It has to stop. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 09:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

16. Support I probably would also support the other matters listed by SMcCandish as he has a track record of harsh and idiosyncratic use of his powers and of not being receptive to questioning of his judgment.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:54, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
17. Support - The user self-identified and self-linked accounts on wiki. Bells can not be unrung, nor virginity restored. No actual outing = No warnings. Carrite (talk) 19:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
18. Support - I regret this because I have seen a lot of sensible and well-communicated activity from Sandstein in the past (and with some legal background understand some of the perspectives adopted by Sandstein), but began to question Sandstein's judgment on the hit a gnat with an anvil approach adopted to SMcCandlish for no discernable (or certainly no convincing) reason. I am not familiar with action to Noetica, Neotarf and OhConfucius - but am surprised with those editors that action of any kind be deemed necessary, raising another question mark. Even if Sandstein's interpretations of his remit are 100% correct there is also an onus to be able and willing to clearly explain rather than simply edict. Without these cases doubt I would comment on this new case - the warning to relation to User:Peter cohen's question in particular looks at best "idiosyncratic" and at worst capricious. The sanction on Devil's Advocate likewise. These should be [temporarily?] revoked on the merits of the case. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
19. support re-outing is perhaps the most asinine rule in WP, one must use the mythical unsend key. anyone who has ever been out-ed has but one choice, make a new account. closing the gate after all the horses are out then expecting to ride into anonymousville at first light is naive. Darkstar1st (talk) 04:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
20. Support to right a wrong and send a salutary message. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC).
21. Support as per Xxanthippe.  Unscintillating (talk) 20:36, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
22. Support. I have no previous involvement with Sandstein. Warning and sanctioning editors for linking to arbitration cases or ANI discussions or for mentioning a well-known, public, prior pseudonym (linked on-wiki) is capricious, arbitrary, punitive and serves no valid purpose. (It serves the invalid purpose of punishing editors who have the temerity to challenge Sandstein's judgment.) Invoking discretionary sanctions to justify the action and immunise it against immediate correction by another admin is uncool. This has all been made plain to Sandstein (and his supporters) and yet he/they obfuscate and splutter and refuse to acknowledge the impropriety.

    We need admins exercising the extraordinary powers attached to AE to be wise enough to inform law-enforcement with the spirit of the committee's decisions and the project's goals, and be more sensitive and responsive to the criticism of their peers and more empathetic than the average admin.

    Sandstein has not demonstrated these qualities (admittedly, not many do), and should agree to drop discretionary sanctions from his tool kit for a while, so that he may reflect on what his peers are saying here, and hopefully demonstrate he has actually heeded them before taking up this most exacting and onerous of all the admin responsibilities again. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 04:03, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

23. Support but as Salvio said, warnings cannot be vacated. They can be deleted from the Case page logs, and that's all, if it makes any difference. Now about that sanction, I agree that it should be vacated, and Sandstein should excercise a more precise and diligent discretion while enforcing arbitration decisions and sanctioning people. I share the views of Dennis Brown that discretionary sactions should be used sparingly, and only when extremely necessary, given that they provide a fast-track way of enforcement that is not easy to be removed once enacted. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 13:43, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
24. Support – This was a really bad idea, Sandstein. An apology to Peter and TDA would be nice. Peter cohen is an excellent, knowledgeable contributor. TDA seems to be in it for the drama more than anything. But in this case, his heart was in the right place. Draco^E 19:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
25. Support per Carrite. Edison (talk) 02:27, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
26. Support per Hahc21's reasoning. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:56, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
27. Support per Carrite and Anthonyhcole. GregJackP Boomer! 14:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
28. Support per Carrite and Anthonyhcole. Bedrieger (talk) 02:01, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Arbcom is specifically tasked with privacy related issues for very good reason that they are not amenable to public discussion (see eg, WP:BLP). Arbitration Enforcement had already determined this was a privacy related issue, in the Scientology matter (where issues of privacy take on even greater weight). Therefore, the appeal on behalf of another user for those who disagree with with Arbitration Enforcement is prudently and appropriately by private e-mail to the AE admins and failing that to Arbcom and not to public discussion to prove the information is not private as these users' attempted. Alternatively, they can appeal the AE warning and sanction to Arbcom in private, if they have to discuss potentially sensitive information. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:29, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

   • The blatant use of the Support section above to go after someone for all their perceived past sins is nothing but POINTY corruption of process. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:00, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

2. Per my comments given in earlier section. Tarc (talk) 23:41, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
3. Just because an identity is public knowledge doesn't mean you get to name drop it on every unrelated page. We should not discourage admins from zealously enforcing WP:OUTING and ArbCom decisions. Even if you disagree, the response seems out of proportion to the alleged offense. All this drama over some warnings? Gamaliel (talk) 23:49, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
4. Gamaliel's argument is one I share. I'd support vacating this specific AE warning for a community warning (or topic bans) compelling editors to step away from their habit of name dropping. Resolute 01:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

   If you are accusing Peter cohen and TDA of name dropping, please assure me and others that you could find a diff for that if called upon (for Peter cohen at least, as none of his edits have been oversighted). Failing that, please strike. Andreas JN466 02:35, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

5. If an editor doesn't want to be identified then you don't do it...regardless of past issues. Outing issues need to be enforced strictly.--MONGO 03:48, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
6. Scientology is a hot-button topic, and it seems pretty obvious that mixed up all in there is a certain pointedness and battleground-mentality going on, if not outright gaming the system. Just because Prioryman's previous 'outings' weren't technically oversighted to comply with WP:OUTING, doesn't mean the deliberate referring to an editor by anything other than their username is warranted or appropriate. -- Ohc ^¡digame!_{¿que pasa?} 05:45, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
7. The warnings were sound. The whole fuss TDA and PC chose to make over the sanctions against Drg55 (and subsequently the fuss Jayen466 chose to make over theirs) was motivated by nothing but long-term agendas of hounding Prioryman. As for the legitimacy of applying the outing policy here, the current Arb request for clarification is giving some hints in the right direction. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:55, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

   Do not just blithely accuse me of having a "long-term agenda of hounding Prioryman", please, as that is a very serious claim to make.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

   It is indeed a serious one, and seeing you participating in that wikipediocracy thread, it is also a very well-founded one. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

   No, it isn't well-founded. You have no standing to accuse me of having malicious motivations. You don't know my mind. You don't know my heart. Please refrain from further such attacks on my character.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:53, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

   "Malicious motivations" is a strong allegation, there has to be serious evidence in the form on objective diffs, Future Perfect ought to come up with it or withdraw it. As an admin since he has powers of "live and death", he ought to refrain from making such allegations. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 09:03, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

8. Arbcom makes the decisions here. Privacy policy is not decided case by case. I agree with Ohconfucious' analysis of what is going on. I don't see how the warnings can be withdrawn. The topic ban could be appealed to the arbitration committee or possibly directly at AE. This is not the place in these particular circumstances. Mathsci (talk) 06:29, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
9. The warnings are clearly justified and this looks like an attempt to intimidate an admin who has the guts to do a lot of the hard work that keeps wikipedia going. ----Snowded ^TALK 09:39, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
10. Should the sanctions/warnings be overturned? Most probably. Should that be decided here? No, I think ARBCOM need to step in ASAP. GiantSnowman 09:49, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

    The first two arbitrators who have replied there, Newyorkbrad and Risker, unfortunately failed to address the main issue at hand here, namely whether these sanctions should be overturned. But arbitrator Salvio Giuliano, who has just commented, said the actual sanction (but not the warnings) should be overturned. 10:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

11. This is clearly a case where an attempt to shut down drama mongering has backfired. This happens. The intent of the warnings and block are sound. The outcome is unfortunate, but it's not clear what the best route is from here. I don't see overturning anything as doing anything more than enabling the drama mongers. aprock (talk) 14:19, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
12. The warnings are justified, and that one of the supports for vacation includes the line "My topic ban from Sandstein should also be vacated" shows what a laughable farce this is. Please grind your axes elsewhere, IRWolfie- (talk) 14:33, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
13. I tend to agree with Wolfie, seems like a lot of grudges on display here. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
14. Per my comments above and with the caveat on the ban below in the comments section. --regentspark (comment) 19:55, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
15. I think Dennis raises some very relevant issues and I do think we should be careful with AE blocks and warnings. I've not looked closely (only the discussion here) but my initial reaction is that this is a case of hounding that was nipped in the bud. I think it could have been nipped better, but at the end of the day it was hounding and needed to be shut down. Hobit (talk) 23:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
16. Again, outside ANI's remit. Sandstein's interpretation is quite strict, but per Gamaliel it is by no means clear that he was wrong. Sjakkalle (Check!) 06:03, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
17. I believe that Arbcom should have decided on the block in the first place, as this apparently is an AE issue. Once Sandstein did it however and the snowball was rolling, I believe that this block was correct. LiquidWater 14:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
18. Per Mathsci. ANI can't really decide privacy matters on a case-by-case basis, not should they try. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
19. Jclemens (talk) 05:23, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
20. Sanctions seem to be reasonably in order. Stifle (talk) 13:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments

I recommend holding off on this discussion pending the outcome of the clarification request linked to above. If the Committee concludes that sanctions of this sort are not appropriate, I will of course undo the sanction. But I think a previous clarification request concluded that it is not possible to undo warnings, in the sense that they are merely notifications of the existence of a case.  Sandstein  22:23, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Agree with Sandstein's above position to wait for ArbCom. Agree or disagree with Sandstein's decisions at WP:AE or Sandstein's related interpretation, I think Sandstein has shown good faith by a) understanding, while still disagring with, the opposing positions, and b) requesting a clarification from ArbCom in a neutral manner. Instead of second guessing how the Committee intended for the discretionary sanctions to be imposed, we should wait to hear what the Committee members themselves have to say. That will then obviously influence whether Sandstein's interpretation and resulting decision was correct or not. I don't think anyone is prejudiced by waiting to hear from ArbCom, and it will certainly shed some light. Singularity42 (talk) 22:33, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is accusing Sandstein of bad faith. It is his actions made in good faith that are at issue. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC).

• I agree we should wait to see what arbcom decided to do first, they may of course vacate the sanction themselves while deciding. Nil Einne (talk) 23:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that the suggestion is in bad faith. ARBCOM usually abides by community consensus and Sandstein knows this. I think it's a way of hoping people lose interest, at this point I doubt a block would be preventative, that's the problem with trying to ask for admin blocks, they are admin for a reason and know how to game the system. I know not all admin do this, I know quite a few that are thoughtful individuals but Sandstein is playing a game here. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 03:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

"I think that the suggestion is in bad faith", how could you think that if you were assuming good faith? You have no evidence of good faith vs bad, yet you assume bad. If anyone was party to a hatchet job at ANI like this one with the flimsy evidence presented, I wouldn't blame them for going to a venue which can look at the issues in a more balanced way, IRWolfie- (talk) 14:49, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Because he isn't acting in good faith obviously, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know there is issues with his conduct. If there wasn't we wouldn;t be here several days later. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment: I was involved in the user:drg55 topic ban AE discussion. drg was completely out of sorts there, user:Sandstein actually sanctioned another editor who was abusing drg's religion. Regarding the wp:OUTING issue, it is a little confusing, I tend to vacillate between Sandstein's statement, and then user:RegentsPark's and user:Jayen466. So if I were to err I would on the safer side, and I would oppose sanctions against Sandstein. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:47, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

If you want to be unconfused about the Outing issue, rather than just reading comments, you will have to go through various links given in various comments. Going through those links, things become very clear. Some things, (about three letters actually) have not been mentioned in this thread because of threats of sanctions. Things might have been clearer without that threat, but you can find it all through on site content. But discussing even that much seems to be controversial/anathemic/blockable to some.OrangesRyellow (talk) 10:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I was a part of the discussion during AE ban appeal, Sandstein actually made the place comfortable for drg55, please check the discussion. drg55 was given enough opportunity, he imo misused it. Now regarding outing, I too was a little surprised with Sandstein's deletions, we cannot speculate about it, as we don't know the contents. Perhaps those who have access to those edits could judge Sandstein, I give him the benefit of the doubt. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:25, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I am sure that Sandstein was acting in good faith and have the utmost regard for his integrity and neutrality. But that does not stop me from disagreeing from his actions. I did see some of drg55's comments before they were deleted. The ones which I saw did not contain anything that cannot be gleaned from this thread and the on wiki links in this thread. I think what drg55 was saying was an integral part of his defence. I suggest that you may follow the various links in this thread before dismissing drg55's actions too quickly. I know you were a part of the discussion during drg55's AE ban appeal and I wasn't. But it does not necessarily mean that you know more about the current situation.OrangesRyellow (talk) 12:21, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

You may be right, I said I was surprised by the deletion. Having said so, I still feel that drg55's approach was wrong, in that it wouldn't work, he said I've been in argument with Foo, so if you've banned me, ban him also that would make me happy. That isn't the right thing to say at your ban review discussion. (All this is my understanding of the situation, it isn't arithmetic so we can have many correct answers for the same problem.)Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:10, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• The previous clarification request concluded no such thing at all, though you posted your own inaccurate re-statement of Arbs' views in a bogus summary that implied such a conclusion. Several Arbs were quite clear that they were certain that "warnings" that include an accusation/statement of wrongdoing must of course be appealable/rescindable/whatever, because they are not in fact simply warnings, but are finding of alleged fact. Those that did not come to this conclusion simply didn't address the matter in terms that made any notice of the obvious distinction, and zero of them directly contradicted that view (i.e. recognized the distinction but said accusation-warnings couldn't be appealable/overtunable anyway). One of the two reasons I didn't get around to filing an RFARB against your (and a couple of other admins') abuses of me and various other good-standing editors was that I expected that the promised clarification on that would be forthcoming, and by the time it became clear that it has just fallen through the cracks my other reason for walking away from editing was ascendant (namely, too much to do in real life to bother with a project that's running further and further off the rails, due to abuses of administrative trust and privilege as a authoritarian conformity-enforcement bludgeon, by WP:CIVILPOV types running rampant and increasingly unchecked, by ingrained wikiprojects pretending that WP:LOCALCONSENSUS policy doesn't exist and getting away with it for years, by process wonks defending "career disruptor" pseudo-editors and castigating actually productive Wikipedians, by failures of leadership, etc.) — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 09:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I support vacating the sanction against Devil's Advocate provided he/she commits to not revealing the real identity of an editor without ArbCom approval. No comment on the warnings, they are merely for information purposes and everyone who edits in the area should be aware of the sanctions. Removing or not removing them is meaningless. --regentspark (comment) 12:29, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

The "warning" is a de facto site ban. It is a fast-track invitation to block, and admins understand them as such. They have been used to sanction users on everything from talk pages to AEs to RFAs. Any user who edits after receiving one of these "warnings", edits with a target on their back. It was just such a "warning" that was used to sanction long-time contributor SMcCandlish, who kept editing after being templated with one of these.

The warning contains an explicit accusation of wrong-doing, and casts aspersions on the user's good name. It damages the relationship between the editor and the Project.

In this case it is being used without consultation with the community by an unelected Super-Arb who appears to have no remit, no constraints, and no oversight. —Neotarf (talk) 15:06, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

The Arbitration Committee has permitted administrators to impose discretionary sanctions (information on which is at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions) on any editor who is active on pages broadly related to Scientology. Discretionary sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, satisfy any standard of behavior, or follow any normal editorial process. If you continue to misconduct yourself on pages relating to this topic, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks, a revert limitation, or an article ban. The Committee’s full decision can be read at the “Final decision” section of the decision page.

Please familiarise yourself with the information page at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions, with the appropriate sections of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures, and with the case decision page before making any further edits to the pages in question. This notice is given by an uninvolved administrator and will be logged on the case decision, pursuant to the conditions of the Arbitration Committee’s discretionary sanctions system.

Thanks for the clarification. Regardless, I'm not sure how the notification can be withdrawn. Can't really expect them them to 'forget' the contents of the notification? The ban on Devil'sAdvocate can be retracted as a good faith gesture if he/she commits to not using the real life identities of other editors (without the explicit permission of that editor or with the approval of arbs). --regentspark (comment) 19:53, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Utterly pointless as I didn't use anyone's real life identity in the first place. I just noted what was provided on the Scientology arbitration case.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:10, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Herein lies the problem I have been harping about for a while. When you have a vague message such as the one above or the oft used "broadly construed" and then allow any one of 1400+ individuals block, sanction and ban at their "discretion" you have recipe for disaster. The admins and arbs can keep trying to draw attention from that fact by saying I am just admin bashing but the fact still remains. The language needs to be clear and concise and the remedies equally so. If the sanction needs to be adjusted because the individual is wiggling around it then so be it. Its a lot better than giving the opportunity to Sandstein and others to just do whatever they want. Especially when several of them have been repeatedly identified as making problematic decisions....but above reproach. Otherwise we get into situations like this where one admin does whatever they want, whenever they want and then hides behind vague determinations and legal jargon. If an editor can be blocked to protect the project then an admin with a long hiistory of abuse is equally qualified to be blocked because they have far greater access. Abuse is abuse.Kumioko (talk) 20:43, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

@RegentsPark: The warnings in this case are logged at the ARBSCI case page, for reference by other admins. The presence of such a warning against an editor means that the editor may now be sanctioned without warning. If the warnings were inappropriate, they can be removed there, removing the target painted on the editor's back. No one is saying that the warnings should be oversighted and deleted from the users' talk page history. They should merely be struck from the ARBSCI case page, so that other administrators treat them the same as everybody else. For the record, two arbitrators have now opined that referring to the editor by his name is not outing. This is all Peter and TDA said, and if arbitrators can voice that opinion with impunity, so should ordinary editors. Andreas JN466 00:24, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

To be clear, neither of us actually said his name except to the extent that his previous username included part of his name. I just noted the arbitration case finding where ArbCom confirmed his identity.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:01, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

There is a similar list at the case page for Article titles and capitalization at WP:ARBATC. The above rough handling and snarks directed at the editors who have left the project as a result of these "warnings" speak for themselves about whether the community views such discretionary sanction actions as merely "informational". —Neotarf (talk) 05:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Elsewhere The Devil's Advocate has written, "Prioryman's identity is obviously relevant as it points to an ulterior motive for his edits regarding Scientology." Comments like that might be considered relevant if at any stage The Devil's Advocate decided to appeal his topic ban either in private or on wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 06:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

For those who haven't figured it out yet, the key problem with these accusation-warnings is the wording "If you continue to misconduct yourself on pages relating to this topic", which does not just imply but specifically accuses the recipient of prior and/or continuing misconduct on the pages in question. Without proof (and in this case, Sandstein's accusation against us has been repeatedly disproven), it borders on blatant character assassination. Sandstein wants to convince you there there is and cannot be any form of appeal against this accusation, but that is complete crap. The Arbs who noticed that this is not just a warning already agreed that, as an accusation, an alleged finding of wrong-doing in fact, this must of course be appealable. Given that I've proven, on my own and on Sandstein's user talk pages, that his accusations against us were based on his failure to understand that the concerns we raised about a particular user's forum-shopping at AE were already documented in great detail at ANI, and Sandstein blatantly refused to read any of that, and rescind the false accusations (of casting aspersions without evidence, ironically), this constitutes actually a blatant, willful, and recalcitrantly maintained personal attack on all four of us. He should certainly be desysopped for this among many other abuses, as in this case, with two new victims, that raised this current ANI thread. But the bigger issue is that these accusations are STILL being issued (including by Sandstein, who very clearly knows better already) as if they're just warnings about certain topics being under discretionary sanctions, and ArbCom STILL has not clarified how/where they may be appealed, despite promising to do so by a date long since passed. The solution to any more such problems arising is obviously to take the words "continue to" out of the warning. Duh! The solution to the still-open problem of editors like myself and the others already mentioned in (at the least) these two cases of unjust accusations is to void/vacate/rescind them as accusations.

No one is asking that they be erased as warnings; of course one cannot be "unwarned" about something, and no one has ever suggested any such absurdity, only Sandstein and a few others engage in the farcical straw man fallacy that this is somehow the remedy being sought. To put it in legal terms by way of a comparison that Sandstein will have a hard time pretending not to understand: if party A publicly tells party B "I do not permit human sacrifice on my lawn, and if you perform another of your human sacrifices on my lawn, I'm calling the police", this is obviously defamatory if party B has not actually been performing such sacrifices. Party A must retract it and suffer whatever other consequences there are for the defamation, and that is the issue, and the only issue. No one cares that human sacrifices actually taking place on party A's lawn would surely be reported properly to the police - having that warning somehow "rescinded" is not even under discussion, and asking that the legitimate warning portion of the notice be somehow nullified isn't in anyone's interest or power. Let's stop pretending any of us here are morons, and quit acting like rescinding of the warnings, rather than the accusations, is even up for discussion at all or matters to any one in any way. Stop trying to confuse the debate by pretending it is, any/all of you. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 01:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not commenting at all on the specifics of this case, though it emphasizes an issue that has bugged me for a long time. The problem with "warnings" like {{ARBSCI}} is that they include accusations "If you continue to misconduct yourself...". This means they can't be used to officially inform someone of the existence of topic-specific rules, or to advise them against directions in which their editing might possibly be headed, without at the same time accusing them of past misdeads. This has many undesirable consequences, including that serious offenders who are obviously aware of the sanctions get off because they have not been officially warned. In my view, all editors who start to edit in an ARBCOM-sanctioned area of Wikipedia should be routinely and officially informed of the existence of the sanctions in a friendly manner, after which notice they are liable to sanction if they misbehave. It seems to me that there is no current way to do that in a manner that has official status. It's like not informing new drivers about the road rules until they are caught speeding. I know this forum is not the right one to get action on this, but I mention it here as it is relevant to the current case and to gauge whether there is enough support for my idea to start a discussion in the proper forum. Zero^talk 07:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the fact that the default warning template ({{uw-sanctions}}) has this accusatory language is a bit problematic. When I created the template in 2008 the accusatory language was not present. It was added later in 2008 by Anomie (talk · contribs), and because the template has since been maintained mostly by various arbitrators, I assume that it reflects their idea of how warnings per WP:AC/DS#Warnings should look like. This language can be reconciled with the rules, as the term "warning" implies that there should be a reason why the user is warned. But I personally would prefer to omit this language and replace warnings with neutral notifications, if only to avoid unhelpful discussions of this type about whether even the warnings were justified or should be retracted. My understanding is that arbitrators are discussing this in the course of a revision of the DS rules per an earlier clarification request, but I'd appreciate it if they could speed this up a bit.  Sandstein  07:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Editors who work with the MOS pages are well aware of the special status of MOS: we were the ones who asked for a remedy in the first place. We all participated heavily in that Arbcom case. It was meant to put a stop to two years of edit warring, first with the sock of banned user, then with an editor who was officially warned after a formal arbcom vote (and thousands of words of community discussion). Both of their names are listed on that document as having been warned, as a preliminary to blocking, and as far as I know, the warning doesn't expire until some time after the heat-death of the universe. I daresay neither one of them will set foot on any MOS pages very soon. Needless to say, the four of us are very confused about why our names have been put here alongside theirs with no explanation and no due process.

The special status given to the MOS pages by the Arbcom has been useful, for example, in RFCs, which, in the Manual of Style area can be a bit like herding cats, as everyone tends to show up at them, whether they know what a manual of style is or not. It's impossible to keep the MOS stable with 60 people making bold edits all at once, so various experienced editors will post a reminder of the restriction from time to time so that all edits are discussed and a consensus reached before any changes are made. I can think of one RFC in particular where it worked surprisingly well.

There is a similar "death list" for this article on probation here, with wide latitude of interpretation given to the admin guarding the list. Note the preponderance of red links, indicating summary executions.

—Neotarf (talk) 09:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Aside

• You know...this about the 9,896th (conservative estimate) thread I've seen about how abusive, rogue admins are running editors away and destroying the project, and how if something isn't done about it immediately then Wikipedia is extra doomed. I've been seeing this said ever since I joined the project way back in 2005. The sky hasn't fallen yet. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:34, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

  Yeah? Here's another aside: I've seen Sandstein's knee-jerk, almost random punishments result in the departure of three long-standing, hard-working, talent, trustworthy editors (and yes, these "warnings" are punishments). And the whole WMF movement is in the midst of an editor-retention crisis. Get it? Tony (talk) 11:34, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

  An "editor retention crisis" that I remain unconvinced is a crisis at all, but, rather, is the expected result of a mature and successful encyclopedia. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:35, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

  If you are interested in lists of military ships and aircraft, it may well be possible to regard WP as "mature"; if you are interested in things like coverage of the Global South, economic history, or the history of art and literature, "woefully and erratically incomplete" and "often containing very dubious content" are more likely to be the assessment. Johnbod (talk) 17:12, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

  Frankly, as someone involved in cleaning up articles on firearms, I can tell you that "woefully and erratically incomplete" and "often containing very dubious content" applies to that topic area as well. It's not just the "pantsy" academic areas that are plagued by such problems. Someone not using his real name (talk) 03:41, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, my approach to editor retention is that I'd rather retain the vast majority of editors who are capable of working with each other without engaging in harassment, personal attacks, edit-warring or obscure factionalism (Tony1, I think you were rather approving of my AE work until it happened to affect some of your friends or allies in the WP:MOS disputes, right?). Because every editor who engages in such conduct contributes to an aggressive, politicized and unwelcoming editing environment that drives many, many others away, particularly (I suspect) women. So, no matter how good their content contributions are, I'm glad to see any editor leave who won't comply with our basic conduct policies and who can't even stomach being called to order about it now and then. If a mere warning or a minor sanction makes them quit, then they're not here for the project, they're here for self-validation or other purposes of their own, which are not our concern. And their departure will help many more others find a place in Wikipedia who are just as good writers but who create less trouble for others.  Sandstein  12:37, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, I still do admire your legal expertise; but that's not the point here. Perhaps there's a fundamental lack of empathy with what it's like to be a long-standing editor and experience the belittling effect of these punitive actions you've been taking. And all the while, you patently disregard bad faith—in some cases the feigning of non-involvement—by certain administrators in the same arena. It's all looking pretty one-sided, and what's more, unnecessary and even arbitrary, to the non-admins who faithfully keep this place running. These warnings or minor sanctions you refer to are better applied after you or other admins have gone to some trouble to mediate or at least calm ruffled waters. You use a hammer, and people walk out. Yes, I have gravitated to this discussion because some of my wikifriends have been unnecessarily hurt or damaged by your actions here; I really care about them and I care about the haemorrhaging of talent. Female editors who end up in your court are more likely to leave the project before you apply the hammer. Tony (talk) 14:15, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Admittedly, empathy isn't my strength, particularly in this text-only medium. And if I do perform my AE work in a way that comes across as belittling, patronizing or otherwise hurtful, then I'd appreciate any specific advice on how to communicate better. But at the end of the day, the fact is that, because of the way WP:AC/DS is set up, it is part of every individual administrator's job (yours, too!) to go up to people who we perceive (rightly or wrongly) to cause trouble in certain areas designated as sensitive and, yes, authoritatively tell them that they are in the wrong. This will hurt people's feelings, inevitably. Nobody likes to be publicly criticized or even sanctioned, particularly if they think that they are unjustly criticized (and sometimes they will be right). We can't help that. What we can do to mitigate the collateral damage is to ensure that the process is as fair and transparent as possible. That means a simple and fast appeals mechanism, an exacting adherence to our policies as they are written (yes, my "legalist" approach – no IAR), and, above all, no preferential treatment of anybody, whether newbies or veteran editors, whether admins or non-admins, whether social outsiders or people who are part of well-established cliques. If there is any other advice on how to approach this problem (that doesn't boil down to: "go easy on my friends"/"veteran editors"), I'll gladly take it.

But you can help, too. For starters, you yourself could help out at AE a bit and find out firsthand how easy it is to make friends there. And if you don't want to do that, you can talk quietly to your aggrieved buddies and tell them that yes, this Sandstein is an arrogant asshole, but throwing a screaming fit and rage-quitting Wikipedia will help neither themselves nor the project, and here's how to file a proper appeal. But what you should not do is participate in pointless ANI threads like this one (asking to block an admin because one disagrees with someone else's sanction, rather than just filing an appeal, seriously?), nor encourage others to, if only because you know that these threads produce nothing except drama and waste our time.

As regards your claim that I have "patently disregarded bad faith" or involvement by other admins, that doesn't ring any bells. Could you please tell me on my talk page what I should have done differently when and why? (But keep in mind I normally only read what's in an AE thread and in the linked diffs or discussions. I can't read minds and I don't examine the full editing history of everybody whose name I come across.)  Sandstein  15:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, you said above, "I am more than ready to stand down from AE duty if even one arbitrator believes that I am not operating in accordance with the Committee's or the community's expectations." Even one? Salvio has said, "Furthermore, Sandstein, in my opinion, your approach to discretionary sanctions is way too legalistic. Our decisions are not legal documents and cannot be interpreted using the same construction rules a lawyer would use to interpret an act of Parliament: as far as I'm concerned, I expect people to interpret and enforce our decisions using commonsense, never forgetting that IAR is one of the five pillars." You say above you intend to pursue "an exacting adherence to our policies as they are written (yes, my "legalist" approach – no IAR)". That's the exact, almost pointed opposite to what this arbitrator said, is it not? Roger Davies similarly seems to me to take an opposite view to yours on each of the three questions you asked the arbitrators. So I make that two arbitrators. Was this "if even one arbitrator" just rhetoric then? Andreas JN466 23:36, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

What I meant was: If an arbitrator tells me to quit AE, I shall. On the merits, though, three out of four who have commented so far concur that naming the editor at issue is outing or at least harassment. I'm waiting on hearing the opinions of the others before deciding what to do next.  Sandstein  05:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Roger Davies said, "referring to him by his real name is not outing". Salvio said, "Moreover, *in my opinion*, not even saying what the "O" stands for is outing because it was indirectly acknowledged by the subject and was the basis of an ArbCom's finding of fact." [11] WP:OUTING is the block reason you gave in the block log. This is what Peter cohen and TDA tried to tell you in good faith, just like these arbitrators are telling you. Are you going to warn and sanction them too? Admit that you were wrong to act as you did, and undo your warnings and sanction. Or at least go out in a blaze of glory, and warn the arbitrators too. Andreas JN466 21:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

By the way, I think you will find Tony1 (current rights · rights management · rights log (local) · rights log (global/meta) · block log) is not an administrator. Andreas JN466 23:40, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

The Editor Trends Study ended in 2010. I believe that the figures have changed (hopefully positively) since then. LiquidWater 14:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Not so as you'd notice, no (link to WMF briefing last week). Johnbod (talk) 11:51, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Sandstein, I hardly need to defend the idea that my contributions to this project are about the project not about my personal aggrandizement (I don't edit topics I'm personally connected to, and even list on my user page ones that I should not ever be seen editing, like my former employers). Many of us are clearly coming to a different conclusion with regard to your own editing patterns, which seem to have very little to do with the success of the encyclopedia and all about you getting to be a lawgiver who specializing in telling people to shut up and go away. I'm on editorial strike not because I "can't even stomach being called to order...[with] a mere warning or a minor sanction", but because you have made character-assassinating accusations with impunity, false facts, and snide haughtiness, while wearing ArbCom's livery, and there's just been no slowing you down much less stopping you. Malicious prosecution does not magically become tolerable and unimportant if the punishment falsely meted out doesn't happen to be severe, but you continually seem to feel that such is the case. And as others have pointed out many times, you seem to be incapable of admitting to error in action, facts or judgment. While you're only one of multiple symptoms of the malaise here, you're one that more people are noticing, and a severe enough one, personally in your own right, that other serious contributors are quitting, because of you. You are driving long-term, productive, intelligent, mature editors away not because they're divas or assholes but because normal people have better things to do than to continue trying to donate their time and labor to a project in which they are systemically abused, with no clear path of recourse, by hateful Judge Dredds with badges, who are more concerned with imposing their idea of law and order than in paying any attention to why a dispute exists and how it should be resolved most satisfactorily for the encyclopedia. Your abilities in this are literally worse than nil – they're actively destructive. I second Tony1 in pointing out that you should step down even by your own words, since he's demonstrated that at least one Arb does not agree with how you are going about enforcement, and you've said you wouldn't engage in AE enforcement if that were that case. Has been for some time now. Even if you don't surrender adminship or get desysopped in the larger scheme of things, you should be nowhere administratively near dispute resolution and sanctioning. There are lots of other admin tasks, many with backlogs, that do not require you to have the kind of even-keeled temperament and empathy that you have been failing to demonstrate. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 02:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

SMcCandlish, I get it that you believe my sanction against you was wrong. But you chose not to appeal it during the month it lasted, and thereby accepted it, so continuing to complain about it here, or maintaining a "strike" (although it seems you're still editing), is in my view entirely pointless. You should try to work within the dispute resolution framework which rightly or wrongly has been set up by ArbCom, not against it, because that will get you nowhere.  Sandstein  05:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Chose not to appeal it? No, the extraordinarily worded terms of the sanctions prohibit, among other things, "engaging in disputes with other editors". [12] —Neotarf (talk) 06:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Neotarf! So it seems that at least two of the three "trustworthy editors" referred to by Tony1 haven't left Wikipedia after all. I hope that you will continue to do good work without getting into trouble again. If you mean to say that SMcCandlish was prohibited from appealing, that's wrong. Not engaging in disputes about the banned topic is a standard feature of any topic ban, repeated in this case only for clarity because the problem was SMcCandlish's overly aggressive and personalizing approach to disputes. The sanction diff you provide contains explicit appeals instructions and even links to WP:BAN#Exceptions to limited bans precisely to avoid any doubt that appeals are allowed (not that they could have been prohibited to begin with). I'm not aware of anybody being under the mistaken impression then that appeals were forbidden. SMcCandlish even announced an appeal, but for some reason did not file it. That's why I find this line of discussion rather pointless.  Sandstein  07:07, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Odd, this topic ban doesn't seem to contain that language. And I don't find SMcCandlish "aggressive and personalizing" but rather "flamboyant" and "willing to tell truth to power", in spite of the obvious risk he runs now in doing so.

But perhaps I should clarify my current relationship to the Wikipedia a little further. I am no longer interested in Wikipedia except for the issue triggered my retirement. While Boing and Drmies appear to have simply shaken the dust off their sandals and walked away, although I have disengaged from the Project--you won't find me in article space or on MOS, for example--I have tried to stay engaged with the process that led to my disengagement, if that isn't too meta an explanation. And I am well aware of my own risk in doing that.

But "getting into trouble *again*"???!? At this point, you appear to be the one in trouble.

—Neotarf (talk) 08:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

@Sandstein: How can it benefit the encyclopedia for you to poke two good editors who clearly are distressed by your actions? What is this nonsense about "getting into trouble again"? Revealing your character at Wikipedia is your choice, but please stop doing things that can only cause damage. Johnuniq (talk) 09:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Sandstein, your snide, childish, self-congratulatory arrogance here is almost unbelievable, and you're clearly not even paying attention, though that is no surprise. Who do you think you could possibly be fooling with this "see, you haven't really stopped editing, tee hee hee" act? Three major contributors have stopped editing on one level or another in response to your abuses. I've stopped editing other than to try to tie up a few loose ends, including the dispute between us. Neotarf as far as I know is doing something similar, and not editing encyclopedia content any longer. Noetica doesn't edit at all. Secondly, your bogus 1-month topic ban against me is not the outstanding issue between us (though it should also be vacated as violation of admin authority on several levels). it's your unretracted false accusations against me, Noetica, Neotarf and Ohconfucius, as has been explained to you many, many times. Thirdly, ANI is part of the Wikipedia dispute resolution process, or did you somehow forget that? I'm happy to attempt to have ANI resolve some of these issues, since it more closely represents actual Wikipedia community response, instead of or in advance of ArbCom doing so, with all of its excessively legalistic process-wonking. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 02:19, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Based on what I've witnessed, Sandstein does not seem to take responsibility for his actions when he screws up and I've never seen him apologize.

Full disclosure: I had my own run-in with Sandstein related to a long-term campaign of bullying and cyberstalking by a small group that even ArbCom initially failed to put a stop to (later mostly resolved by the combined efforts of the community and ArbCom). After a botched ArbCom case that did absolutely nothing to resolve the problem, the main person involved discovered AE could be easily gamed to further bully and harass.

At one point in frustration I made this reply at AE for which Sandstein initially blocked me for 72 hours. [My comments were later found to be very much valid [13] [14] [15] (more background linked on my talk page).] In response to the 72 hour block, I then made the mistake of venting some of my frustration regarding the cyberstalking and bullying towards Sandstein off-wiki via email (I had already made him aware of it previously, so he knew full well going into this what was happening). Ten (10) hours later, Sandstein indef blocked me.

Getting that indef block resolved was an absolute nightmare and was further complicated by the fact that Sandstein seemed to be promoting this block as an AE action (which it wasn't). Even though a number of administrators who asked me to send them copies of the email I had sent Sandstein strongly disagreed with the block, none wanted to potentially run afoul of ArbCom if the block really was an AE action.

While I try not to hold any resentment towards Sandstein [16] it bothers me to no end that even more 3 years later, he still doesn't seem to have learned anything from his past mistakes. If he is still making poor decisions at AE, then clearly he needs to step away from AE. --Tothwolf (talk) 07:27, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

The above thread contains some extraordinary, disturbing, and unsupportable accusations made against some editors.

• That they "engage in harassment, personal attacks, and edit-warring". That they "won't comply with our basic conduct policies". That they are "aggressive, politicized and unwelcoming". And that they are "driving many, many others away others away". Sandstein is answering Tony here, and specifically mentions MOS. Can there be any doubt he is referring to SMcCandlish, Noetica, OhConfucious, and myself?
• Also troubling is the implication that editors have to somehow prove they are editing in good faith by not objecting to false accusations against them, otherwise "they're not here for the project".
• Linking to the WP:DIVA essay, then characterizing those of us who have been chased away by the current toxic atmosphere of AE as "throwing a screaming fit and rage-quitting", is a particularly distasteful bit of gravedancing.
• Expecting Tony to tell other editors "how to file a proper appeal" is likewise misleading; according to the much-cited but little-followed WP:AC/DS it is the province of the admin making the accusations of misconduct to specify the appeal process (this was not done), the misconduct (this was not done), and the actions that would bring the editor into compliance with policy (this was not done).
• Sandstein's "glad to see any editor leave" and "their departure will help" statements renew my speculation about whether these "warnings" were meant to drive particular editors from the project.
• "Obscure factionalism" appears to be a euphemism for the Manual of Style. Yeah, I have MOS watchlisted. We all do.

—Neotarf (talk) 07:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

All right – I've attempted to reply seriously to concerns about my admin actions, as I think admins are required to. Apparently I haven't been successful in communicating my views such that they cannot be misinterpreted. Therefore I'll stop responding here and wait for the request for clarification to conclude before I decide what to do about the concerns raised here.  Sandstein  08:14, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

When you come back, you can take our names off of your death-list. -Neotarf (talk) 11:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I think Sandstein stops replying here because he is desperately hoping for something that legitimizes his approach. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 13:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

And the personal attack by Neotarf (death list is a rather childish comment) and this by Hell in a Bucket (Sandstein implemented what was a consensus) shows this up for what it is. An attempt to intimidate an admin in order to allow disruptive behaviour to continue unabated. ----Snowded ^TALK 16:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to make false accusations against another editor and you are not entitled to remove another editor's comments without their permission. I have restored the comments you removed. If you wouldn't call it a "death list", what would you call it? —Neotarf (talk) 01:13, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes clearly everyone here wants to continue the disruption. What exactly is your point? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:48, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

So when you think other people misinterpret you, you go off in a sulk, whilst if you misinterpret them you abuse your admin powers against them. You cannot become a decent admin unless you become capable of apologizing to people you have hurt. Trying writing a few sentences along the lines of "I am sorry that I misjudged...", "I realize that sometimes I should think more carefully," and "I apologise for not being open to good faith criticism." Everyone makes mistake. It's the mature people who apologise for theirs. You choose instead to make sarcastic remarks about people not really quitting to try too deflect from the fact that you are driving people off from making as many positive contributions to Wikipedia as they used to.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

The one I made and you were pretty obviously seeking out another recruit in a couple of weeks time when the latest block on a long term disruptive editor comes off ----Snowded ^TALK 16:51, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I do have a long standing dispute with Sandsteins cowboyish antics just as Brews does. You are more then welcome to assume whatever you wish but the mere fact that you are expecting this to still be going in a few weeks shows how week Sandstein's and your own position is, if you consider canvassing to notify another person who has a grievance with this administrator over his AE enforcement so be it I admit it freely. I'll even take it one step further and offer to post anything Brews posts to this board on his behalf. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:03, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

QED ----Snowded ^TALK 17:21, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out what I said above, I was worried I wouldn't follow through.

Not to mention your own history, come on its obvious what this is about ----Snowded ^TALK 17:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You're bringing up my block log? Really is that all you have? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:30, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Making rather imprudent posts about an admin who blocked you 11 days ago comes across pretty badly. It makes it look like you have an axe to grind, IRWolfie- (talk) 00:35, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

• Either I'm blind, or the last block Hell in a Bucket received was 3 June 2010, which is not 11 days ago. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:44, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

You're not blind, if they did proper research they'd realize that block was a civility block for using the word fuck, not as in fuck you or a purposeful attack but saying the word fuck on someones userpage when they asked me not to curse there. It was a minor block for sure but if they think I hold a grudge that far back for a small block they couldn't be more wrong, I'm talking about the other cowboyish antics Sandstein has exhibited around AE for a few years now. My blocks have involved comparing the old Arbcom committee to the SS, and then HangingCurve (formerly Bluboy, who thankfully was removed as admin) extended the block because he thought I didn't have enough time to think about it. Prior to that I had just started on Wikipedia and it was a very bad entry, I can't deny that except the block by Hanging Curve that was indefinite which was also unjustified (he called apologizing to the user I had the dispute with harrassment). The point they were trying to make is a fallacy in their logic though because none of them have anything to do with what we are talking about here. Alerting a user that has a history of enforcement from Arb canvassing just got my goat a little. I've spoken with Brews and he is not going to comment on this anyways. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 13:53, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I am linking to this [17]. Admins like him have for too long asked editors to excuse adminship bad faith under WP:AFG because Admins can 'make errors of judgement' but users cannot. I am not sure why these Admins persist in behaving the way they do. Badanagram (talk) 17:41, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I think you meant to link to this section where you fall out with three experienced admins of whom Sandstein is one. Again QED. ----Snowded ^TALK 22:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes that section. QED is probably the best phrase that could be used here. I didn't actually fall out with Sandstien but it is apparent that lately he has come to the conclusion that because decisions have not been overturned by fellow Admins, that he is doing a 'good job'. I make 'Admin decisions' (no internet involvement whatsoever) in my job and I am glad to have proper oversight unlike WP:ANI. I am choosing not to respond to the comment below - except to ask if there is such a thing as an adminpuppet. I like how the person who started this conversation is gloating that the project has survived despite the actions of certain admins. That does not mean that their prevalence as admins is still necessary. Badanagram (talk) 03:04, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

What is wrong with you? In that link Sandstein is asking that Toddst1 assume good faith for your actions ("Do you think that we could WP:AGF and write off this whole issue as a misunderstanding"), i.e he is assume good faith for your actions, and here you are misrepresenting it, and trying to throw it back in his face. You should be thankful, not here bitching about it, IRWolfie- (talk) 00:42, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

This is really sad. It looks like Badanagram is an Aspie who believed in Wikipedia enough to have contributed to WMF. When Badanagram tried to write an article about a musician, admin Toddst1 labeled the edits "nonsense", and hatted some painstaking research about where the song had been used in popular culture, with the label "detritus". [18] I realize the popular culture sections are sometimes controversial, but you see them all the time, but that was just plain rude. When Badanagram tried to find another person in authority to complain about it, Sandstein, BWilkins, and Toddst1 stood around in a circle looking down their noses. Banadangram couldn't show what he was complaining about, as he said he didn't know how to form diffs, but did they help him? No. It looks like Badanagram also might have logged out in order to argue with Toddst1 as an IP, so after getting Badanagram to edit as an IP, the admins made some sockpuppetry accusations, put some templates on his user pages, then said (incorrectly) that these accusations (of cowardice!) could not be removed. There's more. The article Badanagram wrote about the musician was up for deletion, but the person who gave him the deletion notice said the musician was notable enough to have an article. Badanagram again asked for help, not knowing what to do, but there was no answer.

This diff is from three years ago. In all this time, Badanagram has not forgotten how these admins treated them. "I am not sure why these Admins persist in behaving the way they do." Indeed. This is the kind of thing that gives Wikipedia a bad name.

Badanagram, don't waste any more of your time here on this noticeboard, listening to more insults from more bad administrators. "Adoption" might be what you are looking for. You can ask about it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.81.67.123 (talk) 03:24, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Being an Aspie I'm not sure whether the comments above are taking the mickey or not. I didn't write the article above. I objected to an admin removing important info from the songs article, but did it in an uncivil manner. From then on they went on a warpath deleting an article about a journalist that I had created and monitored my userpage. I'm not even sure why I have suddenly remembered what happened three years ago, punitive admins certainly put people off contributing though Badanagram (talk) 03:44, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not even sure why I came on here yesterday. I guess I was a little peeved that the ip page still had a notice on there, when I have had nothing to do with that IP for quite some time. I've moved four times in that period Badanagram (talk) 18:56, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I've taken your username off the IP, per WP:REMOVED. Some of the above comments were negative, yes, mostly saying they didn't want to take time to listen to anyone who is not an admin. Some people are like that. That's why I suggested asking about adoption--it would teach you how to do stuff so you don't irritate people for not knowing how to do things, and you would also have someone to ask when you run into a problem, like with the IP thing. The admin on that page is busy and hasn't taken any new adoptions for a long time, but some of his former adoptees watch the page and sometimes answer questions. If you aren't interested in adoption, you can just ask a question on the page. For instance, they might be able to advise you about your article.

• Proposal. Per Bushrager, we should immediately resysop all admins who where desysopped at some point. Also, we should reinstate all bad blocks, perhaps starting with the one that Sandstein gave to Sædon in the same incident. Because Wikipedia would survive anyway; none of this is going to change any article contents. As Bishonen put it here "Sandstein can block the rest of the community and there will be no more trouble, ever." Someone not using his real name (talk) 12:40, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
  • And the July "completely missing the point" award goes to... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:35, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Maybe we should be talking about the July award for failing to communicate one's point clearly... A problematic issue for an admin. Someone not using his real name (talk) 03:41, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: make Sandstein enforcer of WP:IAR

• Support. Count Iblis (talk) 11:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. He is ideal for this role. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:07, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose This conversation has clearly devolved into one, mudthrowing fest. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 19:43, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• If you think so, you should support this proposal. Count Iblis (talk) 13:05, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

arbitrary section break

• I suppose it's not unreasonable to do a tit-for-tat request for a block of an admin who just applied an indefinite block on another user. Yet, after reading several of these linked discussions and explanations, I fail to see how this proposal could possibly be productive. Sandstein is clearly uninvolved; perhaps he wields the axe in a bit of an overly enthusiastic way, but he does not pick the direction he wields it in. That's the core idea of the WP:INVOLVED policy and it has not been violated. Indeed, it's ironic to see this request so soon after the Saedon block discussion. In both cases, I'd say the solution is to get Sandstein to raise his bar on block lengths, in order to avoid the appearance of being draconian, to better attune his criteria with the community consensus on the matter. Blocking him is hardly a solution to anything. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Asking him to ease up a bit maybe even take a break is likely the only thing that will happen here. I'd be personally satisfied to see him ease up a bit, maybe take a break from AE for a while. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 12:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
  • All of this is pointless. Nothing will ever get done to an abusive administrator. They can call someone a 'narcissistic piece of shit[19]', clearly violate[20] WP:Involved, and commit a horrendous block[21] for just three examples and face no sanction....William 13:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
    • That's three things of apparently zero relevance to Sandstein. Can you please stay on topic? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:26, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Administrator's getting away with anything is on topic. It is a reminder that if policy isn't upheld against administrators we should be asking ourselves why WP:CIVIL is used as a reason for blocking anyone. You asked for something concerning Sandstein. Try this[22]...William 19:56, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
        • Do you plan to let the 3 administrators you've just accused of wrong-doing know you've done so? Because I think you're being abusive; I mean, since you've clearly relaxed the meaning of that word and it's so easy to throw around.--v/r - TP 20:09, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
          • TP, you make me laugh. Two of those three links are to ANIs where nothing was done, and the third says 'let an uninvolved administrator close it', clearly telling the administrator he violated WP:Involved. Who was it who wrote those words I just quoted and 'Toddst1, you've got to be kidding me if you think you get to close a sanction discussion that you opened'[23]?...William 20:35, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
            • And in each case, those three were aware they were discussed. Now you've brought them up again, are you going to notify them? I'm not trying to stir up trouble, but I do not like seeing terms like abuse get thrown around willy-nilly nor do I like discussions that did not have anything to do with abuse get used to support that allegation. In my own diff, where I myself ask Toddst1 not to close a sanction he started, I do not think Todd was aware that WP:CBAN's can only be closed by administrators. Now he's aware. Those other two administrator's should not be accused of abuse here without regard for their defense. Especially when bashing another administrator and the issues are unrelated. For one, it does stir up bad blood. Two, the issues have their own caveats.--v/r - TP 20:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Welcome to Wikipedia SomeGuy1122 (talk) 19:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. Nothing to add on the merits, but I have to toss in my own random numbers. Is anyone else sick to death of these threads every goddamned day? What is it about this website that gathers such overwhelming drama? Editors aren't leaving because finding sources is hard, or because the admins are drunk with power, or because the arbcom is heavy handed / worthless / devious / deviant / etc (depending on the day). They're leaving because they seem to be surrounded by children. There's 6,923,620 articles and counting on this site, surely there is something else we can be working on? UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:12, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Not to argue by exaggeration—rather than being "drunk with power", a minority of admins overstep the mark, whether occasionally or regularly, and that is worth speaking up about. ArbCom is occasionally heavy-handed, or at least needs to be more nuanced in its remedies. I know quite a few departed editors who haven't chosen the "surrounded by children" lifestyle; they've left because they feel aggrieved at admin action against them. It's the sense of injustice that drives people off. Tony (talk) 03:45, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

That's half of it, and ... — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 02:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

It's having people with all the sophistication and maturity of school prefects bossing it over adults which drives people away.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

... that's the other half. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 02:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment I was involved in the AE discussion during which Saedon was blocked. Saedon had said many unpleasant things about another's religion, whoever is attacking user:Sandstein for that particular case is being unfair. In my opinion Sandstein was fairly enforcing Wikipedia policies. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:39, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
  • It is misleading to sum up the situation as concerning "unpleasant things about another's religion" without mentioning that the issue was whether a proponent of scientology should be banned from that topic. The comments that resulted in a block were "scientology is a ridiculous cult and we do not need members of said cult" and "an abjectly inane belief system" (please see Xenu before disagreeing with the last statement). It is perhaps reasonable to take AGF, grossly inflate it, then announce that such comments should not be directed to another editor. However, the comments were not run-of-the-mill unpleasantry about a religion. Johnuniq (talk) 04:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Propose to Close

It's been almost two full weeks this thread had been open. It time for EVERYONE to drop the WP:STICK, I really don't like how Sandstein has conducted himself in several situations but enough is enough here. Nothing is or will happen here.

• Support as proposer. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Request for closure and archival

This has been up for some 12 days now, even though discussion has stalled and I think it's pretty clear by now that this will not result in administrative action. Additionally, the discussion among arbitrators at WP:ARCA#Clarification request: Scientology has broadly supported my view that the naming of the editor at issue against their expressed will constitutes (at least) harassment, except perhaps under certain circumstances not present here. The presence of certain parts of this thread in this public space may contribute to this harassment. For these reasons, I request that an uninvolved administrator close and archive this discussion.

If people disagree with my AE actions, I am always ready to discuss them, but – particularly if they relate to private information – I ask any who disagree to pursue the formal appeals and/or dispute resolution process, rather than to just make noise and assumptions of bad faith in public fora, which (as shown here) accomplishes little. As discussed in the clarification request, as soon as that request is closed, I intend to replace the sanction relating to The Devil's Advocate (which has failed to accomplish its purpose) with a sanction intended to prevent the continuation of the harassment at issue here more generally.  Sandstein  15:10, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

That should go over well and reduce the drahma :), just saying. --Malerooster (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Your view (and block reason) was that it was outing, and that view has not been supported. You would have to warn or sanction at least two arbitrators for telling you exactly the same thing that Peter cohen and TDA told you. In addition, there was a significant conflict of interest in the article at question (if you really don't understand what it was, e-mail me), which is precisely the circumstance under which arbitrators said a reference to the identity per se would not be harassment. I am afraid you seem to have learnt nothing from this. Andreas JN466 13:49, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

As I have discussed in more detail at the ARCA thread, outing is but one form of harassment, so whether or not the conduct at issue is outing does not change that it is just as sanctionable as "normal" harassment. Furthermore, the block of Drg55 for his harassment remains in force (his appeal to BASC seems to have been declined), and his conduct is not excused by any conflict of interest situation because his own topic ban appeal was not the place for a discussion (which he did not engage in, he was just belting out an alleged real name despite warnings) of another editor's alleged conflict of interest in an article.  Sandstein  16:01, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Facepalm You said on 16 July, 'I have now been pointed to a 2009 edit by Prioryman where they acknowledge their real name by providing a diff in which, they say, they edited a citation to their own works, and where the diff leads to a reference with the name at issue. This excludes outing in the narrow sense defined at WP:OUTING, because that policy excepts situations where "that person voluntarily had posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia".' This is the precise information what Peter cohen and The Devil's Advocate pointed you to, weeks ago, because it was contained in the links they dropped you. Instead of looking at it, you peremptorily warned and sanctioned them. (I actually missed that post of yours last week at WP:ARCA; had I seen it, I would not have described your proposed further action as "unspecified" earlier today.) You shot first, and asked questions later. Can you see how this may look inappropriate to bystanders looking on? At least please apologise to the two of them. You'll look a whole lot more human as a result. Andreas JN466 18:13, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I was not provided by either user with the specific 2009 diff you mention, just broad claims and links to huge old discussions (e.g here) about how it was not outing. As I am trying to communicate, in my view, whether or not it was technically outing is not in any case relevant. Either way, Drg55's conduct – repeatedly reinserting an alleged real name at AE for no legitimate purpose despite another admin's warning – was indefensible harassment, and the two users you mention repeatedly contacted me on my talk page attempting to defend it and threatening noticeboard discussions about it (e.g [24]), which in my view would have been just more venues for "accidental" name-dropping and thereby continued harassment, as this thread has indeed in part become.

Jayen466, I am aware that there is bad blood between the user at issue and many users here, including you (you were a party to WP:ARBSCI and were topic-banned there for Scientology-related editwarring), apparently because of old dramas involving Scientology- and Gibraltar-related issues. I am not familiar with those dramas or who is to blame for them (it may well be the user at issue, for all I know). I do know, however, that this has escalated in a slow-burning feud conducted on- and off-wiki in part by using harassment and privacy breaches as a weapon. This is not acceptable, and WP:AC/DS mandates administrators to stop it wherever it threatens to escalate. You and your friends must understand that old animosities, however legitimate they may appear to you, do not allow any editor to misuse Wikipedia as a battleground. I am therefore warning you and all others here that, if I am made aware of similar instances of harassment continuing (particularly publishing alleged real names), those responsible for them may be made subject to a range of discretionary sanctions per WP:ARBSCI#1 June 2012 amendment. Uninvolved editors should be aware that opposing discretionary sanctions in this topic area without proper consideration of all circumstances is likely to have the unintended effect of promoting continued feuding and harrassment.  Sandstein  19:58, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

That you were not provided with the specific diff that now seems to have satisfied you might well have had something to do with the chilling effect your ham-fisted actions induced, or indeed with a genuine desire to not give undue prominence to the information at issue. Instead of handing out warnings and a sanction, you could just as easily have e-mailed either Peter cohen or TDA and asked them to point you to the relevant bit in the "huge discussion" you were not prepared to read. As you bring up WP:ARBSCI, for the second time now, reference to that page will tell you that my finding of fact and sanction in that case were rather lighter than Prioryman's. They certainly did not involve a topic ban from the Scientology topic area as you falsely imply above. I went on to write a GA in the topic area a few months after the case concluded. I have never once used Prioryman's name on Wikipedia (unlike several of his friends), I have scrupulously avoided using it in this discussion, as has everyone else (with one exception, which was neither Peter cohen nor TDA), and I have no intention of departing from that practice. Casting aspersions on me does not change the fact that you owe Peter and TDA an apology. The sooner you make it, the better, and then we can all move on. Andreas JN466 21:01, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

OK. The subject of the incident has called for closure and archival. Move along folks. Nothing to see here. Seriously? The use of AE warnings and sanctions noted in this thread are absolutely outside of the intent of the Arbcom cases. You can scream, "broadly construed," until you are smurfy blue but that doesn't change the fact that some of the editors in this complaint didn't edit anything related to the topic of the Arbcom case. - UnbelievableError (talk) 03:04, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

The subject of the thread engaged in a delaying tactic saying that discussion should be put on hold saying that we should wait on Arbcom, then he comes back here and says that discussion has stalled. Whose fault is that? He's now admitting that he did not bother to read the thread he was pointed to by two different readers even though and is spinning a thread of his imagination to come up with increasingly bizarre reasons to justify himself.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:48, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Reminder from an AUSC Member

If anyone objects to a functionary action using the CU or OS tools, I just want to remind you all that the AUSC exists to review functionary actions that community members feel are outside the checkuser and oversight polices. --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 20:30, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

In other words you want this buried in the non-transparent, do-nothing committees. The nature of the edits in question is clear enough, there's no "private information" contrary to assertions above, making this redirection to yet another committee a clear waste of time. On the other hand, I agree that there is not going to be a community consensus here to lift the sanctions, even if there's a slight majority in favor (27:20), so this thread should be closed. This is not the first railroading by clever use of procedure I see on these boards (asking the wrong questions at ArbCom [25] & splitting the discussion with the inevitable consequence that some community voices [26] only post in only one venue); and it probably won't be last either. On the other hand, these sanctions hardly affect 'pedia content, so we can all move on. Someone not using his real name (talk) 16:03, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Let's do what the third banner on this page calls for. Count Iblis (talk) 22:39, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

The way forward is to bring a non-public ArbCom request, as discussion on Wikipedia is subject to dispute as being potential outing. The specific sanctions possibly could be appealed to AUSC, but the claims against Sandstein relate to misuse of AE, combined with the claim that an appeal would violate WP:OUTING. I say this without comment as whether I think Sandstein action's are correct. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:35, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:COMPETENCE problem with Arctic Kangaroo on AfC

Arctic Kangaroo (talk · contribs) is an enthusiastic young editor who has taken an interest in Articles for creation and helped reduce the backlog. Unfortunately, he's been making too many mistakes, mostly declining articles on people who are actually notable for irrelevant or spurious reasons (eg: Austen M. Purves, Jr., Paul Prucnal, Mike Feerick, Sarah Green, Nitzan Chen).

My impression is that AK is rushing through submissions, declining them too quickly. I've already had words with him at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/July 2013 Backlog Elimination Drive#Increasingly frivolous multiple decline reasons, and Mdann52 has also advised him to back off AfC for a bit as he's causing too many problems here. I've also been advised by Geo Swan of a further problem over on Commons over a lack of understanding of our copyright policies here. Despite increasingly straight talking, I find he's still making questionable judgement calls on AfC today here. He really needs to just take a break from this area.

AK's not malicious, he wants to help and feels he is, but I just don't feel he has the required maturity to deal with AfC reviewing, and as such I feel a topic ban from AfC would help protect the encyclopaedia. What does everyone else think? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:01, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) I've recently been helping on out the -en-help channel of IRC and the week of the backlog, there were at least a few AfC submitters that popped in asking why their draft had been declined. Upon review, I had no good answer for them because I could see no reason to decline (some only had minor formating issues or bare URLs that needed fixing, not a reason to decline), and all had been declined by AK. I agree that AK is likely good intentioned, but unable to to reasonably assess these drafts. I've personally kept my reviewing to a minimum (instead focusing on improving the templates and the reviewer script) patiently awaiting the completion of Theonesean's AFC reviewer training program and think that an enforced topic ban would be appropriate here if AK refuses to self impose one until he can complete the training program. Technical 13 (talk) 21:47, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I see that Arctic Kangeroo has been notified. When he posts here, it would be helpful if he briefly explained why he declined the specific AfC's mentioned above. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:57, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• AK is keen to be of help on Wikipedia, and always cheerful. However, maintenance areas are always a magnet to younger and/or inexperienced editors, and AK is no exception. I've tried to help him a few times as evidenced here, here, here, here, and here. His responses to me are always friendly and polite and he's the kind kind of editor I would willingly adopt if I did adoptions. I don't think any admin action is needed here other than a firm message to slow down a bit, stop reviewing and/or patrolling new pages for a while until at least we have a satisfactory report from his mentor. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I had no idea an AfC reviewer mentoring program was in place, and I think sending AK on that is a much, much, better idea than any sort of formal action, if I'm honest. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:44, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

• I am sorry, but in my limited interaction with him, I did not find AK to be "keen to be of help". Rather, I found him willing to cause a lot of disruption in order to get his own way, even when doing so would cause a lot of inconvenience to others. Mind you, those threats of disruption were over at Commons, and, traditionally, bad behaviour at one WMF project isn't held against a contributor who seems to be well behaved at another project. But AK threatened something highly disruptive there -- across dozens of projects.

1. AK requested deletion of a fine image, one widely used across many WMF projects, asserting he was no longer licensing it for use one commons -- because he wanted it to be used exclusively on en.wiki. His justification for doing so was, frankly, trivial and selfish.
2. Of course he can't claw back a legitimate cc-by-sa license -- it is irrevocable. We sometimes agree to delete properly licensed images -- as a courtesy. But no one could remember doing so when that image was widely used.
3. AK then seemed to announce that he would address the "widely used" objection, by going to all those other WMF projects, and editing the articles that were using the image in question, so they no longer used it. What AK threatened here was, frankly, extremely selfish and extremely disruptive.
4. Two followup comments AK made seem to indicate that AK actually started going to other wikis, to try to edit articles so they no long used his image -- only to be frustrated by instances when he lacked permission to perform the disruptive acts of selfish image removal. We have no idea on how many WMF projects he succeeded in this selfish image removal.
5. I don't think AK has shown any contrition. I've asked him on which projects he succeeded in his clandestine image removal plan -- no reply so far.

Since he started acting as a reviewer, at AfC, Arctic Kangaroo declined 614 candidate articles, and agreed to move 138 articles to article space. I am afraid I think we should have no confidence in AK's judgement and that all 752 decisions need to be reviewed. Here is a list of candidate articles that he declined: User:Geo Swan/AK's AfC declines.

Yes, I agree, that participating on WMF projects can be a good learning experience for keen young people. But providing that learning experience should only be accommodated when it is consistent with our primary goal of building an encyclopedia.

I suggest that when a contributor's record suggests a long learning curve before they can counted on to make contributions that we can count on being overall positive, it would be in the best interest of the project if we did not encourage them to try to contribute in critical areas -- like quality control. Over in the Commons deletion discussion AK insisted he did understand copyright and related IP issues, yet he kept making assertions that demonstrated he did not understand copyright and IP issues. For instance, he not only thought he was entitled to remove instances where his image was being used on other WMF projects he thought that if the image was deleted from the commons his release of his intellectual property rights would lapse, and he would have all his original IP rights restored. AK was not open to learning from his mistakes there, and I suggest this implies he won't be very open to learning from his mistakes here. Geo Swan (talk) 16:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

• I appreciate AK's eagerness (even though he stole my signature without attribution), however, I have also found that he is not overly keen to accept critique. I'm not going to go digging for the details, but he once screwed up something pretty badly that he should not have been touching in the first place. He had already been previously warned not to do that type of action. I dropped a friendly WTF notice on his talkpage so that he could fix the problem himself instead of further action being taken. Many many days later, he tried to use that friendly kick as an example of me being "uncivil", rather than the helpful learning (and non-blocking) experience that it was. I would far prefer to rein him in than anything else - perhaps a voluntary ban on AFC, plus engaging him to assist in the re-review of all of his AFC actions (just like we do on CCI) (✉→BWilkins←✎) 17:01, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
  • @Bwilkins: As I have mentioned, it was not about "WTF". Rather, it was about the shouting (with ?!?!?!). ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:15, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

AK, you probably want to let this one drop. I found the exchange, read through it, and concluded that Bwilkins was simply giving you good advice. You should take that advice in the spirit intended. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:34, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Yup, I dropped it long ago. I'm just explaining to let him understand. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:56, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

A voluntary ban is a good option if the editor is patient enough to do that and learn through the process. It is better to have a large backlog instead of having discouraged first time article creators.  A m i t  웃   02:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• I ran into one of AK's poorly considered declines at AFC, on a biography I thought was quite worthy. Here is the decline decision by AK, based on the actress being "non-notable". After a call for help at the Film Project, a few of us teamed up to expand the article and nail down the references. The resulting Miriam Battista biography was soon featured at "Did you know?" and is now a cheerful little article assessed as C-Class. The editor who first proposed the article became more interested in Wikipedia and has been working on other articles. I shudder to think how many such promising contributors have been scared away by an unreasonable decline from AK. Binksternet (talk) 03:24, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• He probably is the least accurate of all the frequent AfC reviewers. Examining 3 dozen random declines from the list given, about 25% needed speedy deletion but weren't nominated, about 25% could be accepted with only minor changes, about 25% were not acceptable but the reason given wasn't accurate, and the others were declined correctly, though in no case did he offer what I consider sufficient advice. At least a few of the promising new editors have been scared away by the reviews, and I'm trying to bring back some of them, but it's probably too late. (About half of the declines were reviewed by one or more other editors . Many of these subsequent reviews were not correct either. My guesstimate that 60% is the average level of accuracy for AfC declines; that's a very poor figure, but his accuracy is only half that.

Frankly, I've tried to assist AK, but I don't think he understands. Most reviewers I try to help do learn to understand, and some realize they need to learn more before they continue. We have to clean up the AfC reviewing, and here's a place to start. If he won;t accept a voluntary topic ban from AfC (and NPP, because he'd do just as much harm there), he needs it done involuntarily to protect our new contributors. DGG ( talk ) 05:37, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

In his time on Wikipedia, AK started just three articles; two are now Start Class and one is a Stub. I suggest that AFC volunteers ought to be familiar with the process of taking their articles at least to B-Class, and more than just a few of them. Binksternet (talk) 05:58, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

AK's AfC submissions for this month are in his July backlog drive chart here. As part of the backlog drive, other, more experienced editors, should review the submissions. AK has voluntarily signed up for his contributions to be reviewed, so if you want to specifically track his progress, this is the place to do it. 21 fails out of 79 checks so far is about 1 in 4 called wrongly, but only about 1/10 of his reviews have been checked so far. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:51, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

So, will someone be telling him that such "quality" of work will most definitely not obtain the award he seems to be chasing after - just like all edits, it's quality not quantity that matters (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure how many times I've gotta say this, that it's my inexperience and noobiness that's spoiling the quality of some. The rest of the reviews are fine. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 15:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Hmmm. This is a confusing comment -- implying you have acknowledged that your declines fell short in earlier messages. But isn't this the first time you have acknowledged that your declines fell short?

Do you know the aphorism "even a stopped clock is correct twice a day". Using DGG's assessment of how often you gave the useful, correct reason for declining, are your declines really that much more accurate than random chance? Even the 60 percent accurate, 40 percent inaccurate DGG estimated for other reviewers determinations is disturbing.

I don't think you understand why a bad determination at AfC is damaging to the project. I question whether you really want to understand. How about you describe your understanding of how a bad determination affects a genuine newbie who has struggled hard to prepare a new article? User:Geo Swan 19:50, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

For the Commons thing, Commoners are being unreasonable. Sometimes, rules should be bent a little, especially if it is a mistake (yes, it was all a mistake to upload those images). But anyway, I'm not gonna delve into details, since this is not the place and what we are talking about. Back to point, I don't mind taking a short semi-break at AfC. Anyway, I've got the haze article to get busy with these few days, since Indonesia is back, and the haze has hit Malaysia yet again, although Singapore has been unaffected by the return. And BTW, I did not know about the AfC course, but I signed up yesterday after reading about it. As for not responding immediately, I just wanted to see some comments first, so at least I can respond better. Cheers. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:03, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Besides AK, I think there is a larger problem with AfC... every time I take a look at the submissions, I remain often puzzled by the lack of competence of many reviewers... I think we should have a "method" to avoid these "incidents". Cavarrone 12:24, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban proposed

This is pretty alarming, especially DGG's experiences with the editor. AK is enthusiastic and wants to help — those are excellent qualities — we do want to be nice and appreciative and encouraging to him, but the risk of scaring off well-intentioned new contributors must surely take priority. AK hasn't chosen to take part in this discussion, even though he was immediately alerted of it, and is editing. That doesn't bode well for the idea of a voluntary ban which was broached above, and I just don't think we ought to wait for something like that. I suggest a topic ban from AfC and WP:NPP until such time as AK either can show that he "understands", per DGG above, or else gets a mentor who ongoingly checks all his work in these areas. Bishonen | talk 13:50, 23 July 2013 (UTC).

AK has not touched any AfC reviews since this one two days ago, and has been working on content. If he says he's going to voluntarily abstain from AfC, let's take him at his word for the minute. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:34, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

@Ritchie: I'm on semi-AfC-break, as mentioned above. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree on the same. He has himself enrolled to the AFC course and we should assume good faith this time. And probably thats the end of this ANI too...  A m i t  웃   14:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I would like to see AK declare a full break from AFC for six months while he works on content. Binksternet (talk) 14:55, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Six months, I would say, is almost impossible. Furthermore, it's a full break and I will be a free bird after October 2, having nothing to do everyday until perhaps, the start of 2014. If it's semi-break, I don't mind, but for a full break, especially one that's 6 months long, nah. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:59, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I've been on Wikipedia for seven years, on the internet in one form or another for about 20, and on this planet for nearly 40. And that's not saying much. You can do six months. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:04, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

At the moment, I will only be reviewing Doncram's submissions. Easiest to find, easiest to review. For the rest of them, will discuss here. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 15:09, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, AK, that is not the offer that is on the table. As you can see upthread, some editors (not least DGG and BWilkins) are quite comfortable with serving you a mandatory AfC / NPP topic ban right here, right now, but Binksternet has given what seems to be a compromise. The offer is - no AfC work at all for six months, stick to articles, get a mentor and read up on policies. I think, unless anyone else wants to pass comment, the only question now is whether you want to accept that off your own back, or whether you want it to be imposed on you. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:17, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Ritchie333's assessment above. A semi-AfC pause presumably means that AK will do less AfC work than now, concentrating only on those areas which s/he judges to be uncontroversial. That's the problem; it's AK's judgement about what is and is not controversial which is at issue, and the consensus is that AK's judgement is poor. I'm not in favour of a semi-AfC pause. I'm not very keen on voluntary, self-imposed band either but a total voluntary ban, strictly adhered to, for 6 months would convince me. Failing that it's a community imposed ban, for my money. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 17:36, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec with Kim) Agree with Ritchie. A six-month topic ban makes sense, and a "semi-break" doesn't sound promising at all; impossible to supervise, in fact essentially completely up to the user's own judgment, which has been questioned here. That's probably why you never hear of "semi-bans". AK, did you really not think there were any comments here worth answering until just after an explicit proposal of a topic ban had been made (by me)? I can't admire your timing there. Bishonen | talk 17:48, 23 July 2013 (UTC).

• Support mandatory 6-month holiday from AfC and NPP, per proposal. I'd also support a 6-month break from tagging articles for deletion, broadly construed. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 19:52, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Yes, Anthony, I meant to support a six-month ban from NPP as well, as per my original proposal. But I can't see anything upthread about a problem with tagging for deletion (maybe I'm missing it). Could you specify about that? Bishonen | talk 21:47, 23 July 2013 (UTC).
    • I was assuming someone having trouble assessing AFCs would also have problems choosing articles to tag for deletion. On reflection, maybe spending time at AfD would be useful for AK - similar skill set but more scrutiny. Be that as it may, I was over-reaching, so have struck it. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

The attitude AK is expressing here is simply unacceptable. "If it's semi-break, I don't mind, but for a full break, especially one that's 6 months long, nah." AK, this isn't about what you mind or not--it's about what's best for Wikipedia. Based on the statistics cited above, your actions are cause clear and probably (as DGG points out) irreparable harm, by driving away new editors who are producing good content. Personally, I don't understand why we're "offering" a voluntary 6 month ban, since, if AK doesn't take it, the result needs to be a mandatory 6 month ban. That's like saying "Please volunteered to be lashed 40 times. If you don't agree, we're going to punish you by lashing you 40 times." This behavior has to stop, and I don't care whether we call it mandatory or volunteer, but just stop it. (that's a Support for the topic ban, in case this is about counting votes). Qwyrxian (talk) 23:48, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose 6-month ban as too harsh. Support 3-month ban from AfC and NPP. I've proposed a 6-month ban in the past for an AfC reviewer who was an absolute menace, whose understanding of English was so poor that they would reply incomprehensibly to article submitters who asked for explanations for chaotic declines of submissions, and that proposal went nowhere. AK does at least have a reasonable command of English (so much so that there have been on-wiki suggestions that he's lying when he claims to be under 16!), and that's an improvement on some of what's happening at WP:AfC. Also, I see a lot of this decline-button-hammering as having been caused by the limitations of the WP:AfC drive itself; either the reviews of reviews need to happen more often or have more bite when they do, or else the "awards" should not be given to editors who have consistently failed to respond (sensibly) to questions on their talk page about their reviews. (AK is currently headed to receive the topmost prize for the current AfC drive; does that not indicate some problem with that process?) Finally, I would point out that AK is very young, shows remarkable promise considering his age, and has the benefit of a slightly older wiki-friend who uses the same WP:ENGVAR who has been offering considerable assistance (including doing much of the reviewing of AK's reviews). With these advantages, there's no reason to think he can't be ready to review again in 3 months. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
• Prefer the 6 month, I can live with 3 months as per Demi's proposal on all NPP and AFC reviews as long as it's coupled with the right training/mentoring (✉→BWilkins←✎) 00:25, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• NOTE: following AK's behaviour on this very discussion, I am no longer convinced that AK will have learned anything within 3 months. At this point, I'm leaning towards beliving that a 3 month BLOCK from the project, followed by 6 months Topic Ban from AFC and NPP along with intensive training to be the probably only way forward (✉→BWilkins←✎) 17:23, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Wait a minute...please justify that. I haven't been reviewing any AfCs these few days, and I have agreed to take an AfC adoption. It's just that I'm leaving the duration of the topic ban to the community, as you said. Even though I'm not topic-banned now, I have already voluntarily abstained myself from AfC, so that actually makes the total period of the ban longer, although of course, for example the ban is 6 months, the ban still expires 6 months after this discussion is closed. Anyway, I've got to get busy on the haze article already...the haze is back in Singapore! I will be rolling out lots of content already, and blocking me will mean missing it. I don't keep newspapers, dude, they are sold to garung gunis after a few weeks. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

It's called you behaviour in this very thread. That's the justification (✉→BWilkins←✎) 01:29, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• AK, have you participated in any sort of formal mentoring or WP:ADOPTION process previously? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:32, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support six month ban from AfC and NPP. My first comment on this case was rather positive in AK"s favour in so far as I believed, and still do, that he thought he was reviewing in good faith. However, his own statement of inexperience and noobiness strongly emphasises that no noobs or inexperienced editors should be interfering with the 'management' areas of Wikipedia. What I have discovered at AfC in the past couple of weeks has given me goose bumps and a shake up of the participants is long overdue. Some of the problems are due to the AfC project's own aggressive recruiting (possibly coinciding with school vacations) for reviewers and as with all management areas, has clearly attracted new and/or inexperienced users. The shake up has to start here, and unfortunatly for AK, he is going to be one of the catalysts. There won't need to be another long ANI like this one for the others; it will simply be a couple of official requests to cease and desist voluntarily or risk a TBAN or even a summary preventative block for disruption. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:44, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Ain't no school vacations. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:32, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• support up to a month or successful completion of the mentoring program. Oppose for any longer duration. This is supposed to be preventative, and we all need to bear WP:AGF in mind. Tazerdadog (talk) 02:23, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• FYI: I just noticed that this discussion was initially triggered by Geo Swan’s attempt to find real age of AK on Ritchie333’s talk page. GS took part in that DR very late; and started attacking AK and everybody who behaved softly to AK, considering his age. Finally MichaelMaggs, a crat had to say "As a side note, I was sorry to see Jkadavoor being attacked for trying to help him. This is an international project and there are differences in culture and language; Jkadavoor was not trying to be sarcastic as appears to have been assumed above" to stop such attacks. Then GS uploaded all the works of AK to Flickr ([27], [28], [29], [30], [31], [32], [33]) and started threatening him, violating Flickr’s community guidelines. (According to http://www.flickr.com/help/guidelines/: "Don’t upload anything that isn't yours. This includes other people's photos, video, and/or stuff you've copied or collected from around the Internet. Accounts that consist primarily of such collections may be deleted at any time." I informed this matter to Flickr/Yahoo support team and hopefully waiting for their response.) I think this is enough regarding the “common things”. JKadavoor Jee 04:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I dispute I attacked Arctic Kangaroo, Jkadavoor, or anyone else involved in these discussions, and said so in more detail on User talk:Jkadavoor.

With regard to whether I was trying to out AK's real age, after AK followed the advice he should claim to be a minor, I asked him to have his parents or legal guardian confirm his age, and I encouraged him to have them use OTRS to confirm he was a minor, in order to preserve his privacy. I don't care if Arctic Kangaroo is 17, 15, or even 12 -- so long as he can consistently behave responsibly, civilly, competently. Geo Swan (talk) 07:16, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

This possible attempt at WP:OUTING is very concerning ... even moreso if you did, indeed, re-upload AK's images to Flickr. I'd like to see proof of the former, and would encourage you to undo the latter (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:32, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, very concerning. Block! Outing is a no no, say the WikiGods... ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• I dispute I outed AK's age.

1. The first person to assert AK was a minor was Jkadavoor, on 2013-07-13, suggesting he should be cut more slack, because he was "a schoolboy".
2. After many suggestions he could get his way in the deletion discussion if he claimed to be a minor AK wrote "And, please understand that all the uploads were mistakes, as I was unfamiliar, and still young (U16)." I didn't "out" him, he volunteered this information.
3. In my reply I said I thought if AK really was a minor he should get his parents or legal guardian to confirm this -- VIA OTRS. I suggested OTRS to preserve his privacy. I don't want to know his personal details. Geo Swan (talk) 15:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• From the first to last comment, I had advised all the participants to behave properly following the guidelines, several times. But unfortunately many participants including GS behaved very poorly to him. You will get an idea if you read the entire discussion. JKadavoor Jee 17:07, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose 6 month ban which is unduly punitive but Support a 3 month ban, which is more reasonable. A large amount can be learnt about Wikipedia in a few months. AfC needs editors with a sound knowledge of Wikipedia's basic principles. AK admits they are currently a newbie. Some of the problem stemmed from the fact they were invited to take part in a AfC backlog drive where there is a strong motivation for quantity over quality. AfC probably needs to review how and when they carry out backlog drives, rather than punish enthusiastic participants. Sionk (talk) 06:44, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• • This is not punishment, it's self-preservation. AK has been burning off prospective contributors and I don't see any recognition from AK of the seriousness of that. There are squillions of other things a person can do here, the most useful of which - in terms of improving AK's ability to decide the fate of others' good-faith article efforts - would be to actually write content. Six months may seem like a lifetime to a child, but even under the constant coddling of a mentor it is a very optimistic time-scale. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:54, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Six months is a child's entire godding life!!!! ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm going to be slightly awkward, but hopefully this'll be a good compromise to what everyone else has said so we can get consensus ... I will support a voluntary three month AfC/NPP topic ban if AK responds to it in the affirmative soon. By saying "yes, I will take the ban", it proves he is prepared to put the needs of the project and the community ahead of the needs of himself, and he is personally promising to improve as an editor. Otherwise, I will support an involuntary six month ban of the same. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:12, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I supported a six-month ban above, but I'll go with your suggestion which I don't feel to be awkward at all. I will however point out that while A large amount can be learnt about Wikipedia in a few months, it takes longer to assume an appropriate level of maturity, and helping users on their way to adulthood is not within our remit. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support a 3 month ban, with mentoring & training in the meantime. GiantSnowman 11:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support a 6 month ban, with mentoring & training included. Not punitive, but preventive, to avoid further "damages" in a very sensitive area that requires the highest competence, that in my view this editor proved not to have (yet). Cavarrone 12:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• The purpose of a ban or block is to protect the project. I suggest we have good reasons to believe AK's actions will continue to be highly damaging. In particular Arctic Kangaroo has a pattern of not taking responsibility for mistakes. On commons, and on my talk page, AK is on record that he is not responsible for previous mistakes because he is legally too young to be held responsible. I don't care how old a contributor is -- so long as they contribute in a responsible, civil, competent manner. But, it seems to me, AK is acting like claiming to be under 16 means he should not feel responsible for his mistakes. Discussion above strongly suggests to me that AK is unable to really recognize the weaknesses in his contributions, and that makes me think he faces a long learning curve, may never understand what he was doing wrong. In that commons discussion AK kept insisting he understood copyright, when he very clearly didn't.

If we were to take at face value his claims to be under 16, and to interpret his comments as if he was saying he shouldn't feel an obligation to take responsibilities for mistakes because he was a minor, then we shouldn't expect him to try to act responsibly for more than two years.

I suggest the topic ban should include a ban on nominations in {{xfd}}.

I suggest the ban's duration should not be fixed, but that it should last as long as his mentors feel he is unready to act competently, civilly and responsibily. Geo Swan (talk) 12:32, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Whoa there...let's investigate this Can you provide a diff where he even suggests that he has no "obligation to take responsibilities for mistakes because he was a minor"?? I think this is a very valid rabbit hole to start going down if such a thing was even hinted at by AK (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:29, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I think the diff is this one where AK says " I'm also just a minor, so how well do you think I can understand these copyright and law stuff?". Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 13:39, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hard truth: The pictures will stay. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• • With regard to AK taking responsibility -- when he was told the commons image he wanted deleted wasn't eligible for courtesy deletion because it was in use on other projects he said he would visit all those other projects and remove it from those articles, so it no longer in use! No, I am not making this up.

    Later he complained he lacked sufficient permissions to remove all use of his fine image from all projects. I have told him that the responsible thing to do would be to go back to the articles on other projects, and restore usage of his image. He has not responded to this suggestion.

    I have asked him for an estimate of how many articles he succeeded in removing the image. He has not responded to this question. Geo Swan (talk) 12:44, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• I feel an obligation to comment here. It's saddening to see an ANI thread concerning you (unless it's something good?). The fine prints of Wikimedia: Once you give us the goods, there ain't no takin' it back. Likewise I have to agree that once AK donated those photos, he could have never taken them back. Unless, AK, you say that you took those photos from another site, and it's not yours. I don't think that would work. Age should not matter on Wikipedia. I'm in favour for a three month AfC ban. I think it would be better for you to gear up and study. Don't trip on the final hurdle, AK! AK's a good chap, but all good chaps start out as bungling ones. With some time, this mess will be cleaned up and everything's good again. Cheers, ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:23, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support 3 month - 6 months seems extreme in this case. Seems like 3 would be plenty of time to get up to speed. We can always revisit it then. Sergecross73 msg me 13:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I will, very gladly, take the 3 months voluntary AfC ban, complete with AfC adoption. Case closed. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 13:52, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, AK, but that option is off the table. The community is discussing whether you will have a 3-month or 6 month (or possibly indefinite) community-enforced topic ban from NPP and AFC's ... you do not get to unilaterally choose something different - especially when you had that option long long long ago (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:04, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

@Bwilkins: ??? They were asking me to volunteer for a 3-month or 6-month, so of course, I volunteered, after understanding that it would benefit Wikipedia. I don't see anywhere above talking about indef, but I actually don't see why it's needed, considering this is the first time, and I have good intentions. That leads to assuming good faith (as always). But anyway, an NPP ban would be almost redundant, as I only do NP patrol like, once every many many weeks or usually, months, although my userpage states that I'm on NP patrol. Most of the time, I do rvv, if you did look at my contribs. Cheers. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:09, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) BWilkins, I was going to say something like this too, but I'm not sure if AK truly meant that he was doing a "voluntary ban", or just meant that they "voluntarily submit to a formal topic ban". If it was the latter, then we're fine; that may have just been a confusingly worded way of saying he concedes to the topic ban. (This seems to be the case based on his post that EC's with this one.) Sergecross73 msg me 14:11, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

@Sergecross73: I'm puzzled by what you mean. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:18, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Let me try to simplify: You don't decide how long your ban will be. (Sorry) We (the folks here) decide. You can accept it willingly or unwillingly, either way you will serve what we want you to serve. Understood? Cheers, ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 14:20, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

"Voluntary" bans are strictly up to you, in theory, its all up to you to uphold. "Topic bans" are actually enforced, and you'd probably get reprimanded and blocked if you decide to go against them. Based on your wording, I guess we're not sure exactly which one you're agreeing to. Agreeing to a topic ban would end the discussion. Agreeing to the voluntary ban...wouldn't really mean anything at this point, with so many people supporting a topic ban. Sergecross73 msg me 14:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm volunteering, actually. Sorry for my confusing wording. If I ever try to/do break my voluntary ban, please slap me with 1000 whales and trouts, give me a huge scolding, and vandalise my block log for a duration of your choice. But two condition though, let me participate if there are further discussion on the current drive's page, and respond to any fails that I don't understand. Thereafter, I will shut myself totally from AfC until 24 October. Cheers. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:33, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Well then, as others said, volunteering for a voluntary ban is pointless this far into the process. That's like "turning yourself in when you're already in the courtroom". (Sorry, its a pretty common tactic for people around here to quickly say they'll do it voluntarily just to avoid formal sanctions.) Sergecross73 msg me 14:56, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• AK: As already stated, you are long past the opportunity to self-impose a "voluntary topic ban" - consensus above is that a "topic ban" is required. You have no choice anymore. You can stop this discussion right now by stating "I accept the 6 month topic ban from NPP and AFC". Any violation of the topic ban (that is very clearly the consensus above), will lead to an immediate block, and then future blocks of an escalating nature. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:05, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose any topic ban modified by the word 'voluntary' (implying that AK gets to choose whether and when it ends). Support topic ban of 6 months from AfC (and obviously any shorter ban as a second preference.) Sorry, but this negotiation process is not how we do bans. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 14:41, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Topic Ban for 6 months - voluntarily or not doesn't matter until he keeps his hands away from it and takes time to learn.  A m i t  웃   16:25, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support six month AfC and NPP topic ban. From what I've seen of (and about) Arctic Kangaroo both on commons and on here I have serious reservations about their work. They seem to think they can get out of things, and have things their way with complete disregard for policy and procedures (as seen here, here, and here one this thread and here at commons). Their whole attitude both here and at commons is quite unusual, trying to both claim competence and understanding (here) while claim 'I didn't know' other times and in the end claiming here and at commons that they don't understand (here), in what I assume is a last ditched attempt to get their own way. I feel it in the best interests of both Arctic Kangaroo and the project that a six month ban be enforced. I would however ask if there were someway that Arctic Kangaroo could review AfC articles, but through a supervising user? ie, Arctic Kangaroo looks at an AfC candidate, and writes up a review, proposals etc and send that to a supervising user who reviews their (Arctic Kangaroo's) review and then moves to the AfC candidates entry. This way Arctic Kangaroo could continue to contribute, but not directly (so as to limit potential harm) this could also be a way of providing valuable feedback, increasing Arctic Kangaroo's knowledge and competence. I do have two questions which I would like Arctic Kangaroo to answer though: Do you recognise that the way you reviewed AfC candidates was problematic, and that you have things to learn and improve on before you can go back to AfC? AND Do you completely understand the nature of licensing that is applied to all work across WFP projects (Wikipedia, Commons, etc), and can you - in your own words - explain it? (if these questions are out of line, I request an admin either strikethrough or redact them) Liamdavies (talk) 16:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• I just noticed that GS still keeping AK’s works in his Flickr stream, attributing to AK; neglecting his repeated request to either remove them or remove the attribution. Removal may a matter of courtesy and ethics; but I believe AK has full rights to ask for removing the attribution per [34]: “That said, CC licenses do provide several mechanisms that allow licensors and authors to choose not to be associated with their works or uses with which they disagree. First, all CC licenses prohibit using the attribution requirement to suggest that the original author or licensor endorses or supports a particular use of a work. This "No Endorsement" provision protects reputation, and its violation constitutes a violation of the license and results in automatic termination. Second, licensors may waive the attribution requirement -- choose not to be identified as the author or licensor of the work -- if they wish. Third, if a work is modified or incorporated into a collection, and the original author or licensor does not like the how the work has been modified or used in the collection, CC licenses require that the person modifying the work or incorporating the work into a collection remove reference to the original author or licensor upon notice. Finally, if the selected CC license permits modifications and adaptations of the original work, then the person modifying the work must indicate that the original has been modified. This ensures that changes made to the original work -- whether or not acceptable to the original author or licensor -- are not attributed back to the licensor.” JKadavoor Jee 03:12, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Attribution must be kept. But of course, it's better to delete the image. I have also placed a nice note explaining the steps I hope to take to make the decision I find best here, but the unreasonable guy is still talking crap. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 13:51, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
    • As you are teetering on the edge of a 6-month topic ban here AK, it might be better if you demonstrated a more level-headed editing style than this. I'd suggest that you strike this as an intemperate mistake, or at the very least that you think more carefully in future before you give your opponents more ammunition. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 13:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
      • I'm not striking that, but I'll try to control the blowing during this period. RL is making me fed up enough already, and Geo Swan just makes it get better. Can sometimes be hard to control, though. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 14:06, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• On User talk:Jkadavoor I said I would remove attribution to AK -- if he requested I do so. I don't believe he has made this request. If AK simultaneously requested commons also remove attribution I presume an OTRS ticket could be initiated for those who have a legitimate need to inquire.

I don't think it is on-topic here to discuss whether I have an ethical obligation to remove the flickr copies of these properly licensed images. I've encouraged Jkavadoor to explain his or her reasoning via talk page. I'll encourage anyone else with an opinion to explain it to me on Commons:User talk:Geo Swan. Geo Swan (talk) 15:08, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support six months AfC topic ban. Although he's been editing for about a year, 99% of his contributions are vandalism reverts. I think he lacks sufficient understanding of the more complex content policy issues to patrol others' work. Some of the articles he declined are rather complex as they require an evaluation via WP:ACADEMIC criteria, but in other cases he simply said that generally reliable sources, like the New York Times etc., are unreliable. In general, one should not stomp on articles he understands little about. It should be understood that more serial mistakes after the topic ban expires would result in an indefinite topic ban. Hopefully he'll use this time to contribute some new content as well, and in the process become more familiar with content policies. There are also problems with this vandalism patrol as well, e.g. [35] is not vandalism; they did have a loss that big for 2012 per [36]. Someone not using his real name (talk) 15:11, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) I actually don't find it nice to talk about the wrong revert, considering the fact that that was almost 5 months ago. 5 months can help us make lots of improvements. ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 15:47, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support a 6 month topic ban. I hope that AK spends the time at AfD, learning the fine points of Wikipedia's notability doctrine. Read that every day with open eyes and an open mind, especially the closer rationales. Offer your opinions when you bump into articles you feel strongly about one way or another. Improper declines at AFC are a big problem; once a person truly understands notability doctrine that shouldn't be an issue. Carrite (talk) 16:18, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support 3 month AfC topic ban if he refuses to self-impose a topic ban. Also, I would like to note that Category:Submissions by Doncram ready for review is not technically part of AfC as a result of this discussion at the AfC wikiproject, and I personally have no problem with him accepting/declining those with guidance from a mentor. Which, as I originally mentioned way up above, I support him taking part in an Adoption and going through the AfC Mentoring program (when it is completed that he has already signed up for). Technical 13 (talk) 02:30, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - I have come across several of Arctic Kangaroo's later reviews when the articles were resubmitted, and I must say that he has been improving with experience, and taking time to leave specific messages for the article creators. It's quite likely that if he comes back to the Afc later on his reviews will be more acceptable. —Anne Delong (talk) 15:30, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support a 3 month ban from AfC and NPP, Oppose a 6 month ban per Demiurge. As shown below, this user has been following incorrect advice which is not his fault. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 23:03, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• . Thine Antique Pen, how that specific problem with Commons has something to do with his conduct at AfC and NPP? Unrelated issues. Cavarrone 08:02, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• The problem is that AK was given incorrect advice on copyright, something that should be checked for in AfC and NPP. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 09:57, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Sorry Thine Antique Pen, surely AK's wrong assuptions about copyright were/are a problem, but that's not "THE problem", at least not the main problem we are discussing here. I don't see any evidence that they have a significant weight on his lack of competence and on the bad reviews he made at AfC. They are, at best, an additional problem of competence, even if justified by a bad advice he received. But I don't see how this helps his position on the AfC issue. Cavarrone 10:12, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support a three month ban Bedrieger (talk) 01:56, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Copyright and incapacitation due to minority

Broadly speaking, a person not of the age of majority in the US cannot be legally bound to contractual obligations. Does this not apply to WP's terms of use, specifically: releasing their contributions as per our CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL? This user has a) declared their minority and b) questioned how they can be held responsible for "these copyright and law stuff". WP:COMPETENCE may be applicable, as well may be a block (until their minority has elapsed) so as to protect the foundation from potential exposure and also to protect a young editor. Rgrds. --64.85.216.104 (talk) 14:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

We have several editors who are under the age of majority in their respective countries. If that were a legal concern, WMF's general counsel would have brought that to our attention. I'm not a lawyer, and I wouldn't be WMF's lawyer if I were, so I try to leave the legal stuff up to the people who are experts in it and get paid to do that. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

There was a discussion sometime back about underage editors in the village pump to be allowed to use WP and access especially the so called adult content. Most of us opposed. But in this instance for an editor who shows intentions to ignore the rules and legal contracts should be an issue especially when they themselves claim being underage as one of the loopholes. At the same time the above about putting a block on him because he is underage is going to discourage a lot of underage editors in WP, also how do we identify without an outing that when his block should lapse? A m i t  웃   16:42, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

They have said they're under 16/18. I could say I am an admin, or Foundation staff; That doesn't make me one. Also, there is some doubt about their age at the file deletion page on Commons. I feel that we just can't tell about this, unless we make everyone to identify to WMF. Mdann52 (talk) 17:24, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Amit, I think most people who favor a ban favor it not due to AK's claim to be a minor, but due to an unwillingness or inability to contribute in a responsible, civil, competent manner. Adults who can't contribute responsibly, who can't contribute civilly, or who can't contribute competently may also face preventative blocks or bans. Geo Swan (talk) 18:11, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

  I agree and for the same reason you can see my already existing support vote for the 6 month block in the above section irrespective of his age. I do raise the outing question and made the point about discouraging underage editors in my earlier point which i meant to put in as i am not trying to favor nor oppose any action based on age.  A m i t  웃   18:52, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

The challenge here is that AK seems to have claimed that because of their age, they were not old enough to be able grant the license they did for their images, and as such, they original grant should have been cancelled. That's problematic (✉→BWilkins←✎) 18:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• IANAL, but I think if a case like this ever made it to court, the judge would rule that by letting him use the camera, and then letting hims use WMF sites where individual released images and intelledtual content under a creative commons license, his parents had authorized him to upload those images, and click save when he drafted new material.

  Until he takes steps to confirm he is a minor, through OTRS, I suggest we act as if AK is legally competent to surrender intellectual property rights through a CC license. Geo Swan (talk) 20:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Your obsession with "winning" this war over this image, however important an image it may be, is unseemly. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:55, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm reasonably certain a minor can hold a copyright. If there were issues with a minor disposing of (i.e., agreeing to license) such a copyright, I would imagine that would have been brought up by WMF legal counsel by now.

Regardless, however, a refusal to agree to the licensing terms is incompatible with editing any Wikimedia project, and we've normally revoked the editing privileges of any editor who's tried. While this incident occurred on Commons, rather than here, I'm troubled that it took place. I'm not certain AK should be editing until (s)he clearly indicates understanding of and willingness to follow the irrevocable CC-BY-SA licensing terms. That's true whether an editor is 15 or 50. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:52, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually WMF have already commented on that eventuality, so your being unaware of that suggests that you shouldn't be commenting until you're up to speed on the realities. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:53, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Well, if the WMF have already commented, and you know where to find that comment, would you please link to the pertinent comment? Thanks! Geo Swan (talk) 15:16, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Yep, I'll dig that out for you. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• I would assume that minors are able to retain and also release copyright. Otherwise, it brings to question almost everything a minor is involved in on the internet, including DeviantArt, Facebook, and anywhere else that involves both a release of copyright and a contractual retaining of copyright. And those places do allow minors to be a member, so I would assume that such a thing is allowed. Though it's possible that copyright for minors is something the law leaves as a gray area until it becomes an issue due to a lawsuit. Is anyone aware on what the law, at least in the US, is regarding copyright for minors? Silverseren^C 23:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

  Can a minor claim copyright? Short answer: Yes, but state laws may regulate related business dealings. alanyst 23:40, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

  So, in short, it's complicated, huh? I hate it when that happens. Though, Wikipedia-related copyright isn't a business dealing, is it? So there shouldn't be a problem? Silverseren^C 23:45, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

  I wouldn't read too much into that short phrase. Just because it doesn't mention state laws regulating non-business dealings (such as a minor releasing their writings and images under a free copyright license without being paid for it) doesn't mean there aren't any such laws. --Avenue (talk) 08:44, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Arctic Kangaroo was following erroneous advice he was given

In April 2013, as part of a formal WP:ADOPTION process, Arctic Kangaroo, obviously confused about copyright of images, asked this:

"Umm...if I have a photo which I have taken myself, and I want to upload it, but just uploading it to help Wikipedia, but don't want others to use the work, then can I list it "non-free" or place a "<copyright sign> Arctic Kangaroo" on the picture?"

In reply he was told this:

"You could do the latter of those, but not the former because that requires it to be used, and just a notice asking for no usage would work. It is unlikely anybody will want to use right away anyway, especially if its not something that requires further illustration."

He was still uncertain, so he expanded on his question further:

"Could you explain further what you mean by "just a notice asking for no usage would work"? Because I don't really get what you mean."

In reply he was told this:

"Just write a sign that asks people not to use it."

So AK made clear he wanted to upload photographs without other people using them elsewhere, he was told that this was possible (or that probably no-one would want to use his photographs anyway), and he was told that he could retain more rights over his photographs than is actually the case. And he followed this advice.

I'm not saying AK's attitude has been acceptable here, but it seems to me that half the problems he has are caused not by "lack of competence", on his part, but in fact by problems with two WikiProjects - first, the WP:AFC project which is giving out its biggest shiniest award to someone who hammers the decline button on submissions without giving it enough thought and without replying to most of the queries about it on their talkpage, and second the WP:ADOPTION wikiproject which has given a kid who was already confused about copyright, the wrong information that has led him into exactly this mess.

This is not his fault. It's our fault. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

As the coordinator of the drive, I want to make something clear - per the rules of the drive, AK is not in the lead. Every review that is reviewed as a fail does not count - and in fact takes points off. Also, on the adoption page, the user in question makes it clear that CC makes the work free - and says nothing about releasing the images under the licence in question. Mdann52 (talk) 17:45, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Well the leaderboard currently shows "1 - Arctic Kangaroo - 808 - CRM.png and Goldenwiki 2.png". As for the adoption page, I'm not sure I completely follow what you're suggesting, and I don't think an inexperienced editor should be expected to follow it from the answers provided either. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:00, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• That is interesting. Note, while his mentor seems to have given AK incorrect advice, AK didn't "write a sign that asks people not to use it." So, I suggest it is quite incorrect to assert he got into trouble because he "followed this advice".

AK was being mentored, this question could have been thoroughly theoretical -- not a reflection that he didnt' want his images to be re-used when he released them under a free license. This would explain why he didn't place the note his mentor described, when he released them.

I suggest the underlying lesson from his mentor's bad advice is the importance of vetting or monitoring those who volunteer for particularly important positions. Quality control is important -- too important to be undertaken by unvetted individuals who just aren't qualified. Similarly, the lesson of the bad advice which AK was given, is that those serving as mentors need to be vetted or monitored. I don't know AK's mentor, and I won't judge his or her competence on a single event. They are on a wikibreak, so we can't expect them to explain this advice here. Geo Swan (talk) 20:21, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes the question could have been "thoroughly theoretical" if it weren't for the fact that the chronology is quite clear - (1) AK asks if he can upload images that then won't be used elsewhere, (2) he's told that probably no-one will be much interested in using it elsewhere anyway, (3) he uploads a rather fine image, (4) it gets used elsewhere, (5) he seems unhappy with this.

About the need for greater vetting or monitoring of those in quality control or mentoring positions, we are in agreement. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I echo the above arguments, as I said in the main discussion, these roles (mentor, AfC reviewer) are too sensitive to be left free from every rule and every supervision. They are the entrance doors of WP, they should be assigned to persons of the highest competence. I think there should be some selective mechanism to avoid any incident and any bad judgement. Cavarrone 06:42, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

So now that AK knows the correct policy is he backing off? he still seems to claim commoners are being illogical? Obviously this new information changes my vote above to Neutral.  A m i t  웃   14:19, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Constant WP:NOTFORUM violations by User:Baseball Bugs at Talk:Edward Snowden

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Let me put this simply: Baseball Bugs has gradually become a huge pain in the ass over at Talk:Edward Snowden.

A quick peruse through that page will reveal Bugs' increasingly disruptive behavior.

His first edit was on June 10. At first most of his comments were actually quite reasonable and seemed focused on discussing the article. But over time his focus shifted from the article to the subject of the article. Then over time a strong bias started showing through, and recently he has annointed himself as a POV warrior who must do battle with what he calls the "hero-worshipers." These days, several times a day he will go through all of the active discussions several times per day and blanket them with his own snarky editorial gloss on all things Snowden. He seems to have a complete misunderstanding of the WP:NOTFORUM concept, and he also seems not to understand that Wikipedia isn't a WP:BATTLEGROUND.

And there are a bunch of editors who agree with me. Here are some discussion threads where editors have complained about his soapboxing:

• Not a "whistleblower" (complaint by User:RAN1)
• "Political views" vs "Career" (complaint by User:71.20.55.6)
• NYT article on Snowden's job (complaint by User:Nstrauss)
• Snowden's Resume and Skillset. (more hatting)
• Mass spying on Brazillians (complaint by User:AndyTheGrump)
• Letters from Snowden 1 Jul (more hatting)
• Edward Snowden’s nightmare comes true (complaint by User:Nstrauss)
• Asylum requests (hatting by User:AndyTheGrump)
• Complaints filed by Human Rights organizations in France (complaints by User:AndyTheGrump)
• Moscow-Cuba plane detour sparks speculation Snowden may be on board (complaint by User:AndyTheGrump)
• Removed accusations (a very revealing thread in which Bugs claimed to have the right to delete talk page comments that disparage the US government; complaint by User:DrFleischman and agreement by User:Blade-of-the-South and User:Gandydancer)
• Media contraditions (removal of BLP violation by User:NorthBySouthBaranof)
• Russia update? (complaint by User:DrFleischman)
• Omission of religion? (complaint by User:Jonathunder; notice Bugs' reaction re WP:BATTLE)
• Why is this here? (role of KGB/FSB) (complaint by User:Gandydancer)

And then there are the off-page warnings and comments:

• User:AndyTheGrump: [37], [38]
• User:DrFleischman: [39], [40], [41]
• User:NeilN: [42]

Bugs does occasionally make some constructive comments, but these days they're few and far between. As for what to do about this, I'll leave it up to the admins. Obviously Bugs is a valuable member of the community but there's something about Edward Snowden that makes him go haywire. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 07:37, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, his attitude and approach has nothing to do with Snowden. Bugs is of a specific generation in the United States who sees the world through what is called moral clarity. If you read that article, you will understand what he is thinking. Viriditas (talk) 07:44, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

That article is a coatrack for conservative bashing.--v/r - TP 14:29, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Most conservatives and liberals are good at holding their ground while they bash each other. -- Taroaldo ✉ 21:38, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Moral clarity thats pretty close. Winners write history as they say, but for now we're in history. Its ongoing. It may even get epic, and many of us try to document these interesting times in a non POV style. I dont mind Bugs too much, but the black and white view of the world he tends to support just isn't realty and is two dimensional. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 09:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the black-and-white problem is among those who treat Snowden as a hero and the US as a villain. It is nowhere near that simple, and it's important to keep reminding editors on one side of that POV fence that there is another side that they need to consider. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:58, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Why is that important? I thought we were here to write an encyclopedia? --John (talk) 10:16, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you asking why a balanced view is important??? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:18, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

No, I am not. Your behaviour as exemplified here and later shows that you should not be editing in this area due to WP:NOTFORUM, WP:SOAPBOX and WP:BLP concerns. Your view is not balanced, and your comments are not helping. Please do not continue like this. --John (talk) 10:28, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

The behavior of the hero-worshippers is nauseating. How do you propose to deal with that? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:33, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Walk away and let others deal with it. --John (talk) 12:24, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

That's how you propose to deal with it??? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:35, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

The same way it's dealt with on other talk pages - escalating not-a-forum warnings and not by tit-for-tat snarky remarks. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:10, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I say this with love in my heart and with all appreciation for Bugs's humanity and humour; it'd be best to back off from this and focus your talent elsewhere, BB. --John (talk) 21:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I've taken a glance through the current talk page and the archives and I think it's clear there are serious forum issues all around. I can't speak for all the contributors, but I do know that Baseball Bugs at least should know better, especially all the times he shows up to stir the pot at AN/I. If he can't collaborate constructively and keep the focus on developing the article rather than developing politics, he should be topic-banned from the article and whatever closely relates to it. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 13:17, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

To be fair to Bugs, there was a time when s/he was a real irritant and timewaster here at AN/I and was I believe topic banned from these boards for a while. However this was well over a year ago and Bugs' recent contributions at AN and AN/I have been much more succinct and constructive. Bugs retains an acerbic and intelligent wit which is appreciated by many, including me. However on the Snowden topic I agree with others that Bugs' sense of proportion has gone missing and I think I would agree with a proposed topic ban on this one area. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 13:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with David Fuchs that there have been other WP:NOTFORUM violations at Talk:Edward Snowden, but Bugs has been by far the worst and most consistent offender, and most of the others have been by IPs or other much less experienced editors. (P.S. I'll update the links in my original post to avoid linkrot.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

To me, this comment by Bugs pretty much says it all. His goal is to influence the other editors themselves rather than the article. That's WP:SOAP in a nutshell. (It's immaterial that influencing the other editors might indirectly influence the article. That could be said to defend any soapboxing.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:43, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

"Influence"? Horrors! Goddess forbid that editors should be asked to think outside their particular box of biases. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:57, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Seems so. The thing is, if the preponderance of world opinion backed by reliable sources portrays Snowden-as-hero, then that is what WP:NPOV dictates our encyclopedic coverage should be. If Snowden-as-criminal is the minority point-of-view, it actually does a disservice to NPOV to treat it as an opinion with equal weight. This is no different from tamping down the birthers who feel their particular conspiracy theories should be given prominence in the Obama article. Doesn't work that way, however. Tarc (talk) 17:26, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

No valid source calls him a "hero", they merely quote others who think he's a hero. Don't forget that distinction. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:57, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Ah, a wiki world that is fair and NPOV. I knows its July, but I just made my xmas wish :). Good luck all. --Malerooster (talk) 17:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Bugs, could you disengage from the Snowden talk page, please? I'm asking you this as an old editing pal of the morally relativist kind. That will save us all some time and trouble, and you a topic ban which is likely to be granted. FWIW, I appreciate Bugs's wit as much as Kim does, and I don't consider him an irritant. Drmies (talk) 17:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, I don't think Bugs' humor should serve as a defense. And he hasn't shown much wit over at Talk:Edward Snowden. I've laughed out loud at some of his posts on other pages, but at Snowden he just comes off as shrill, angry, and stubborn and his attempts at humor seem intended for an audience of one. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:27, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Dr. F. You've expressed your concerns and people are agreeing with you. Don't undermine attempts to de-escalate the issue without formal sanctions by calling Bugs shrill and angry. That will only cause more drama. Back off and let cooler heads deal with it. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 19:18, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

This coming from an obviously-hiding-their-identity IP user who does nothing but comment around the edges of Arbcom cases is what truly ramps up the drama. Calling a spade a spade in the case at hand is sometimes the only way to truly deal with it. Tarc (talk) 19:29, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

What identity would that be? 204.101.237.139 (talk) 19:48, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Hey, don't be hating the IPs! We are people, too. Our opinions are just as valid as yours. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 17:29, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe, but they're much harder to keep track of. HiLo48 (talk) 22:13, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Forum or no forum, the bottom line is that if other editors ask you to change your behavior, you should do so. Only if you think you need to continue with what you are doing in order for the article to be edited properly, can you argue against that. So, the issue is not per se whether or not Bugs violates the NOTFORUM rule (because from time to time many other editors including me do so, the rules on wikipedia are flexible), what matters is that it can at some point become disruptive to other editors. A teacher may tolerate the pupis to talk in class, but when he asks the pupils to be quiet and Bugs keeps on talking, Bugs risks being sent away... Count Iblis (talk) 12:09, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I see that some other editors are now starting to question some of the premises that the hero-worshippers have glommed onto. So at this point I'm content to watch, as the tide slowly turns in the factual direction. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:57, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Fittingly, given the circumstances, here's a story just today,[43] about Russian hackers stealing 160 million credit card numbers. Thank goddess it was only Russian criminals and not the NSA. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:08, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out that I had some trouble finding this story (which I heard on CBS radio news today) in Google, because there are so many of them at various points in time over a number of years. Russia also routinely jails critics and satirists, which is against the law in America. The guy says he wants to hang around for a while, "to learn about Russian culture." Uh-huh. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:02, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• I purposefully have not read the talk page yet. Much like the notion that history is written by the victors, POV is sometimes intentionally or unintentionally introduced by the majority. Talk pages must not be used as a forum, but perhaps everyone involved in editing Snowdon should try to examine the content more dispassionately. -- Taroaldo ✉ 21:49, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I certainly second that. The article has had its share of flare-ups that were not provoked by Bugs. But my complaint isn't about Bugs' bias or passion, both of which are probably warranted for such a controversial subject. Rather, my complaint is that Bugs has become focused on convincing other editors of the righteousness of his views (e.g. most notably, that the subject of the article is not a hero) rather than on improving the encyclopedia. His most recent edits in this discussion thread are just further evidence of that; when your NOTFORUM behavior spills over to ANI then you know you've got a problem. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:27, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I concede that it's very difficult to convince others to look at a story from other angles, when they are already locked into their positions. It reminds me of the fight over whether we went to the moon or not. There was no convincing the conspiracists, regardless of evidence. As regards ANI, well, Doctor Yeast-and-Margarine, you dragged me here, so don't expect your complaints to go unchallenged. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:54, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

If you feel the need to debunk conspiracy theories then you can start a blog or write a letter to your newspaper. But that's not what we do here. (And to compare those who consider Snowden a hero to those who believe we didn't put a man on the moon is laugh-out-loud silly. Included among the many millions of people you've repeatedly disparaged as "hero-worshipers" is the founder of this website.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:07, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

One thing the Apollo hoaxsters liked to do was to cite polls on how many people agreed with them. Oddly enough, there seems to be no small amount of that kind of thing in this situation also. As regards Wales, keep in mind he shut down Wikipedia for a day to protest something or other, in gross defiance of Wikipedia's rule against "disrupting Wikipedia to make a point", so he's not walking any high ethical ground. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:10, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Keep digging that hole... --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:57, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Enough, you two. None of the above exchange is appropriate for AN/I (or indeed anywhere on WP.) I strongly suggest that you disengage from one another now and allow other editors to come to a decision on whether any action is warranted. Personally I would close this right now but I've expressed an opinion on the matter. If anyone uninvolved cares to do so I think we've all heard enough and there's nothing to be gained by extending this discussion. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 08:43, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Close it. I've stopped editing the talk page, which is presumably what Yeast-and-Margarine was wanting. So dat's dat. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree. I reserve the right to bring this back if Bugs starts editing there again. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• It looks like Bug's has quit the project as he's blanked both his user and talk pages. Problem solved. 204.128.192.34 (talk) 17:13, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Which IMHO is nothing to be celebrated.--ukexpat (talk) 17:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This hardly looks like the type of discussion that would make a long-term editor quit editing... Sergecross73 msg me 17:28, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• Don't celebrate too soon there in Burbank. I just felt like it was time for a clean slate. P.S. It looks like Russia and the US are negotiating to send Snowden back home, which if it happens would pretty much put an end to this little story. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:26, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

FkpCascais

In the April Evlekis arbitration enforcement discussion, I mentioned FkpCascais was engaging in tendentious revert wars and recommended that we act to stop this behavior. At the time, Gatoclass didn't think it was serious enough and FC was let go with just a notice.

Well, as usual, history repeats itself and makes me think that the patterns I'm noticing aren't all just in my head: a discussion about an old picture's copyright has degraded into yet another violation of the spirit of WP:ARBMAC. He ignores the nominator's main copyright concern and instead wants to keep the picture because it presents one position, claiming some other people have added pictures that present another one. His other contribution to the FfD is joining a contentious subthread (a discussion between Antidiskriminator and Peacemaker67) to explicitly censure another editor for (allegedly) not respecting his POV there and, well, everywhere else.

That's just not the right attitude - it's a clear battleground mentality and an apparent failure to adhere to the spirit of the neutrality policy. In short, exactly the kind of bad attitude what ARBMAC is supposed to guard the encyclopedia against.

He's been mentioned in the ARBMAC log at least once a year in the last three consecutive years; he's violated his earlier topic ban there on at least two occasions - one is documented in the log and the other I noticed and notified WGFinley, who then gave them yet another second chance.

At this point I'm unable to act unilaterally because I'm involved. Nevertheless, I really don't see what the community stands to lose from giving FkpCascais a long-term ban on the topic of politics of the former Yugoslavia - other than these repetitive incidents.

I chose ANI instead of AE as a venue for this discussion because the latter forum tends to be very technical and narrow in scope (and when people like Sandstein apply sanctions broadly, people get upset). Here, the format is less strict and I'm hoping more people can chime in to make sure we've got a good sample for a consensus.

--Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Joy, you had disputes with me in the past and some you lost so it gets quite borring by now you hunting me down. I don´t think appropriate for you not to show one diff showing one wiki-rule I broke but rather collect cases you and some friends made against me long time ago... FkpCascais (talk) 20:29, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

And regarding the "Evlekis case" I restored a section that was sourced and blanked by one editor because someone seems to have changed parts of the content which I was unaware of, and in my view not a reason for blanking an entire usefull section (the editor who was blanking the section, if acting in good faith could have just corrected the information). One section restoring is not a tendentious reverting for sure, but I understand your efforts to present it that way... Regarding Peacemaker, yes, I was a bit hard on him on that comment, but seing a picture with soldiers trumpling an enemy flag and arguing that they are just standing and it´s only a few of them and etc. is just not understandable. FkpCascais (talk) 20:36, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I may not be the nicest editor around to discuss with, but I try allways to be objective, correct and I´m a strict follower of wiki rules. That is why you never have concrete diffs with clear breakings of some rule by me, but rather you mention all your past reports with addition of peacock words and dramatising them. Next time you´ll mention this report, and so and so... FkpCascais (talk) 21:04, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to see some diffs for this as well. Also, I thought FkpCascais was under a topic ban already, though it may have expired. If memory serves, it was in regards to Balkans history, especially dealing with the politics during WWII. FkpCascais, are you still topic banned? AniMate 23:25, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

No I am not AniMate. I may have been a bit hard on Peacemaker on my comment (the reason why Joy brought this here) but so is he being ironic in that discussion. He says he wants to "help" but when Antidiskriminator fixes the non-free-usage problem of the picture, then he tries to disregard the picture by saying that those soldiers are "simply standing" next to the Nazi flag (when the source clearly says they are trumpling it), and so... I mean, this is a highly politicized matter, but there is a group that constantly makes all sorts of difficulties to include in the article anything that goes against the "collaboration issue with Nazis" and reports those editors. Basically Joy is reporting me and asking to topic ban me because I wasn´t nice in one comment to Peacemaker and because I opposed his opinion? Come on... FkpCascais (talk) 00:49, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

You're right. I think I was remembering a topic ban discussion in regards to User:PANONIAN. AniMate 20:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I linked the discussion already, piped, here it is explicitly: Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion/2013_July_22#File:Chetniks_trampling_the_Nazi_German_flag.jpeg. The other hyperlinks in my text are also piped and they provide further information. The messages are clearly signed, do you really need diffs? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 06:57, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

In any event, I realize requiring people to click through a few times and follow several different discussions is onerous. Yet, I think that it's fair to do that to make sure everyone's seen a modicum of context before discussing a non-trivial topic ban. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:01, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Joy. You are asking for a long-term topic ban for this user, so yes, you really do have to present diffs, and lots of them, and current ones too, not from years gone by. Their two posts to the file deletion discussion are not enough on their own for a topic ban to be warranted in my opinion. Thanks. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:38, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree here that I don't see anything actionable. The arguments at FFD are poor, but if we topic-banned for poor FFD rationales, we'd be banning a lot of people indeed. Without any other evidence of recent misconduct, I don't see anything warranting a sanction. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 18:25, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

The incident and the evidence, or lack thereof, presented here do not make a very compelling case for a topic ban at all. AniMate 20:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a polemical issue and we even had a almost 2 year long mediation on this subject. The group Chetniks has started initially by being a resistance movement, and with the appearance of communist Partisans, they ended up engaged in collaboration activities with Nazi´s. That complex situation needs to be presented in the article. Our article is deeply unbalanced (one can compare our article with the one from Britannica and see the major difference). I was a bit hard on Peacemaker on my comment there, but their continuos obstruction in adding material about Chetniks resistance activities is also very tireing with endless debates and excuses, and the pic is extremely necessary in order to bring balance to the article. FkpCascais (talk) 21:29, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Having been pointed here by Antidiskriminator, I have to say I think this is a bit of an over-reaction. In the past I have been as frustrated as anyone else by Fkp's failure to bring reliable sources or address WP policies when dealing with a topic. His comment was uncalled for, as I did assist Antidiskriminator when the picture was first uploaded. However, a bit of robust banter is part and parcel of editing in ARBMAC-Land, and I can use some picturesque idioms myself at times. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 22:33, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

(replying to all) I realize how this can seem like overkill. The problem is, low-intensity POV harping doesn't improve the encyclopedia and is instead disruptive, even if there's not a lot of it. If after three years the same user keeps presenting the same problematic attitude in discussions, and does not reciprocate with quality sourced contributions in main space, why do we all have to spend time dealing with them? I see no reason to believe that we won't be seeing the same problems next year and in perpetuity.

Notice how he still insists on describing the Chetniks article issue as "deeply unbalanced" - it's an article with 141 citations to an assortment of books. If it was really that deeply unbalanced, someone probably would have noticed and tagged the hell out of it. Instead, I think this is just an inability of FkpCascais to let go of his own bias.

Also notice how I didn't suggest a similar ban for Antidiskriminator - God knows his behavior regarding the same topic areas is terribly annoying (see his topic ban on a FA biography - I've literally never seen something like that before, plus the several times he's baselessly accused me of admin abuse). But he's done some actual half-decent work - most recently I noticed he wrote 13KB of material about the Thematic debate on the role of international criminal justice in reconciliation. Yes, perhaps there are problems with that, but it's not oblique POV pushing, it's something that contributes to the encyclopedia.

In this topic area, I'm just not seeing the benefit of continuing to listen to FkpCascais. It's at best marginal compared to the amount of effort required to ignore the disruptive elements of it. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 10:25, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a shamefull attitude Joy. I beleave BOOMERANG should be in place here. You are unable to provide any diffs of mine showing any disruption and you are basically asking people to ban editors because you don´t like them. You being an administrator here is a big disapointment for WP standards. FkpCascais (talk) 13:08, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I have provided ample links to demonstrations of your behavior; perhaps they're not in trivial and straightforward diff form, but anyone who wants can click through and read up on it. I don't dislike you personally - I don't even know you personally - I simply find this pattern of behavior where you violate ARBMAC on half a dozen occasions over the course of several years, and still don't reform despite numerous warnings and bans, to be a clear sign that you have no intention to reform. Heck, even in this response, you went for an ad hominem as opposed to for example explaining how you've contributed to making that article less "deeply unbalanced" or something else that might actually be productive. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 13:30, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I challenge you to find any diffs of mine from this year where you can point a finger to me in any way. Otherwise, please get off my back and let me edit peacefully. FkpCascais (talk) 18:19, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Dude, seriously, I already did that. You're now intentionally insisting on wasting my time. But hey, let's continue the charade: here are the diff links of the two edits I already mentioned: [44] [45]. *facepalm* --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:00, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Joy, these two diffs alone are not enough to warrant a topic ban or sanctions of any kind. That's why your topic ban proposal is not getting any support from any editors. Might I suggest that it's time to drop it now, as your topic ban proposal has been on this board for several days without garnering any support whatsoever. -- Diannaa (talk) 18:32, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but if you actually read what I wrote above, I never said that those diffs alone constitute disruption worthy of a topic ban; I think FkpCascais' behavior in the topic area over the period of the last 3+ years does. In any case, I see that there's no support - we'll all just have to suffer through some more of that. Oh well. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:FOUR dispute

Hi, I'm coming here from a dispute on the Four Award talk page, primarily located at Wikipedia talk:Four Award#Removing name and articles from WP:FOUR and partially here. Could an administrator please assess the consensus in the first discussion and take appropriate action, possibly including removing articles from the records list? I tried to act based on the comments there, but receiving vandalism templates on my talk page is getting rather old. (pinging User:TonyTheTiger, please let me know if I should ping more) Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 23:30, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec)Note that as project Director, I exercised my authority to maintain the records of the project. You are free to decline an award, but not free to change the recorded history of an award, even for something like the Golden Raspberry Awards where everyone would want to remove their name from the historical records people are allowed to decline but not change the history of the award. It is not a matter of consensus in terms of record keeping. The historical records are what they are. I have agreed to use placeholders to maintain the historical record for declined awards.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:41, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I thought that Tony, the director of that project, had determined he was not to be swayed by consensus:

MY DECISION IS FINAL in the sense that I am no longer commenting on this thread. I am not opening up FOUR to a special MILHIST style collaboration. I don't want to wake up and see all of the battleships, Airplane models, famous battles, and notable military leaders known to man listed here because I allowed MILHIST to dictate what a collaboration is. You are free to pervert the rule as I have posted it.[46]

There would be no problem with people removing their entries if Tony accepted jointly created article collaborations. Binksternet (talk) 23:36, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

As I have stated, for several reasons, I am not expanding collaboration eligibility for userspace/sandbox creations any further than those for article space. The award has gotten watered down many ways since its creation and we are getting to the last straw. Now (the last 4 years) nearly one award is issued for every 5 new FAs.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:46, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Tony, you describe it as a bad thing that the award is being given out more often now than when it first started. I say "so what?" Lots of awards means lots of happy contributors. The wiki benefits from people being motivated, and what I see here is you becoming a demotivator, which is, I'm sure, not what you intended. So don't change your purpose, don't start discouraging people! Collaboration ought to be held in high regard, as exemplary activity. [[User:Binkster{{net|Binksternet]] (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I am not familiar with WP:FOUR, is this Tony the Tiger's private province? Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:55, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Tony has been highly active, but its not his "private province". The page was started by Thomas Bat four years ago (diff) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:01, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Well, he didn't start it, yes—but he appears to have granted himself the title of director and unlimited oversight over it. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 00:09, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• I would also like to point out that, during the course of this dispute, Tony has displayed a striking lack of good faith towards people with views which contradict his own. Snark about a user's name, painting all Milhist members (even barely active ones) with the same brush, saying those against him are perverting the rules... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:06, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
  • In fairness, Crisco, that first one is fair game. Drmies (talk) 02:41, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Looking at the history of Wikipedia:Four Award/Records, Tony the Tiger has already reverted attempts for editors to remove their names from the list 4 times in the past 24 hours [47] [48] [49] [50], which I believe would be a violation of WP:3RR. FunPika 00:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Make that five now, with his latest revert (1). I'm WP:INVOLVED, so I won't do the blocking. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:35, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Fully agree. Tony knows far better than that. He can peruse the list for 48 hours (✉→BWilkins←✎) 00:40, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

• Request for explanation Binksternet (talk · contribs) has taken action to eliminate the possibility of a collaboration. He is not an administrator. Is this the resolution here to resolve the dispute by making it moot.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:38, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Tony, you declared yourself to be the director of FOUR. You declared that collaborations would not be accepted. I merely corrected and simplified the otherwise misleading text in the FAQ and in the rules, to say collaborations were not part of FOUR. You had placed some byzantine text which said that collaborations may be accepted in very unusual and unlikely cases. In practice this description was not followed; rather, collaborations were not allowed by you. In light of this declaration I felt that people should have the rules stated simply. Binksternet (talk) 00:45, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Agree fully with Binksternet. If a self-declared director is ensuring that there is no chance for a collaboration to pass, despite consensus to the contrary, the rules should not offer false hope. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:50, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• Just trying to understand why WP:OWN doesn't come into play in these circumstances and how can some one attribute ownership for something already present in Wiki though it is not an article but more like a process here but still same rules apply - No??  A m i t  웃   14:07, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
  • My concern as well. Do we have self-appointed "directors" of projects now? Should we expect T the T to begin to annex other related projects and pages into his directorship? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:57, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
• I'm struggling to see the logic of Tony in forcing people to be part of this, when they simply don't want to be. Not sure exactly how many things that is violating, but WP:OWN and WP:IDHT are definitely being violated. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:08, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Article creation

• I've been dealing with TonyTheTiger on somewhat unrelated matters for the past week. He initiates articles on individual works of art. He admits to not being particularly knowledgeable in this area. He solicits help in writing these articles. (I would call it a kind of Wikipedia outsourcing.) He attempts to promote these articles to Featured article status (I'm fairly ignorant of "featured article status".) These articles tend to be riddled with problems. These articles stray from scope, sometimes in not good ways. These articles are what I would call "everything including the kitchen sink" articles. Quantity seems to be equated with quality. Overblown language is sometimes preferred to plain language. I have a particular interest in articles on individual works of visual art. I object to his churning out articles that misinform about works of art. Speaking to him has been futile. For a sampling of some of what I'm talking about, look at this page and some of the pages it links to. I would not mind TonyTheTiger's involvement in this area if he seemed to be genuinely concerned with the quality of the article. Unfortunately I don't see that as being the case at this time. Bus stop (talk) 00:21, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I had similar concerns with Drowning Girl, though not being familiar with the subject area I could not find any possible misrepresentation. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:08, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Bus Stop is not the only editor to voice concerns with the quality of the article he linked to, but I want to make clear what he means by "Wikipedia outsourcing": what he means is that Tony brought the article to WP:Peer Review, which I think all those who have contributed to this thread recognize as not only a normal, but encouraged part of the process of bringing an article up to FA quality. Also, I hope what Bus Stop means by "the kitchen sink" is not the content that is currently under dispute... Curly Turkey (gobble) 13:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
    • This dispute at FOUR doesn't seem to be related to Whaam! or the artist. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 17:21, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

This too is what I'm dealing with. I ask TonyTheTiger here to please not post in the middle of my posts. What is his response? More of the same: [51], [52], [53], [54], [55]. Bus stop (talk) 05:11, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Objectionable email

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Quinacrine (talk · contribs) posted this attack on a religion to Talk:Islamophobia saying in part "ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION. IT HAS NEVER BEEN A RELIGION AND IT WILL NEVER BE A RELIGION. ISLAM IS THE MOST GENOCIDAL IDEOLOGY EVER CONCEIVED BY A HUMAN MIND". I reverted it and warned him I'd block him if he did it again after seeing that he'd been blocked before for a similar edit.[56]. He then used Wikipedia to send me what I considered an objectionable email - I can't quote it, but I can say it was a short question. Now that doesn't bother me in particular, but if he's sending me this he could clearly be emailing others with even more objectionable emails. He complained at the talk page about my reverting his edit(with a link to it) but has received no support. I also see [57]. Was I justified in telling him I'd block him if he made a talk page post again? (And minor question, about his linking to his original post?). Dougweller (talk) 05:49, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Dougweller quotes my post out of context. If you read my entire post, you will realize that I posted solid evidence for every word quoted above. The root cause of our disagreement about Islam is that I understand Islam better than average Muslim (and can talk about it for many hours) while the majority of Wikipedia contributors and administrators lack the most basic, idiot-level understanding of what Islam is and what it is not. My opinion (quoted above) is not important, but the facts I included in my (deleted) post are VERY IMPORTANT.Quinacrine (talk) 22:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

There is certainly a long-term pattern of disruptive soapboxing on topics like this with this editor. He was ranting on Talk:Anders Behring Breivik last March too. Very much support a final warning (at the least). Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Doug, would you be willing to forward the e-mail to me (or to another functionary)? Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 09:39, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Update: I have seen the e-mail, which is indeed unpleasant, but does not warrant a block per se, in my opinion. However, this is a clear case of WP:NOTHERE, as far as I'm concerned. I'll give him the chance to reply here, if wants, but, as things currently stand, I think an indefinite block is inevitable. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 14:52, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I have the same impression from what I've seen here. I should note however that enforcement of the wiki rules in this area (Islam) is rather uneven (see the couple of discussions currently on WP:AN). Someone not using his real name (talk) 15:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, seeing the editor's latest responses to this thread [58], it looks like it's not very likely they'll be willing to mend their ways soon. I've taken up Salvio's approach and applied an indef-block. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:24, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Well done! Had I seen this earlier, I'd have done the very same thing. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 17:05, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Badmintonhist continues stalking me

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Less than a month ago, I brought a complaint to this board about Badmintonhist's hounding, and the general agreement that he was not behaving as he should does not seem to have dissuaded him, as he continues (cf. [59]) his (cf. [60]) hounding (cf. my recent editing of the article). Pretty much everything he does at the encyclopedia is directly or indirectly related to undoing my edits. If a warning from admins would make him stop, and find something productive to do instead of spending all his time trying to disrupt my editing, that would be great, but as remarks from admins haven't stopped him in the past I worry that a firmer hand may be necessary. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

At the last discussion, Black Kite, Gamaliel, and I all agreed that Badmintonhist was stalking you. I don't know why the thread was archived without any action being taken. This continuation is plainly the same sort of disruptive interaction. I suggest an interaction ban. Binksternet (talk) 18:54, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

An IBAN would not stop that. It is merely a ban on actual interaction between the users. This edit clearly shows that Badmintonhist is continuing their previously-established pattern of following Roscelese to articles and reverting them. I would suggest a final warning, to be followed by blocks. Black Kite (talk) 19:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Barring the presentation of conflicting evidence by Badmintonhist, I concur. Gamaliel (talk) 23:11, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I've only recently begun interacting with Roscelese after she reverted several of my edits and then nominated the article for deletion. That's fine, except she didn't attempt to seek consensus or discuss any of her heavy handed reverts in the talk page. She seems to have improved a bit since I complained about her lack of cordiality and etiquette, but I believe a lot of the ire directed her way is because of a general insensitivity to the edits of others with whom she apparently disagrees. I hope that this will be an opportunity for all of us to be polite toward one another irrespective of our political and religious beliefs. Thanks! Lordvolton (talk) 01:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry but what does 'opportunity for all of us to be polite toward one another irrespective of our political and religious beliefs' have to do with it? Do you have some evidence Roscelese is impolite to people because of Roscelese's or the people they're interacting with's political or religious beliefs? Nil Einne (talk) 01:23, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I think one of the great successes of Wikipedia has been the ability of people from varying political and religious perspectives to edit Wikipedia amicably. When an editor is heavy handed and doesn't seek consensus that can easily be interpreted, rightly or wrongly, as being a POV editor. The simple solution is to be polite and cordial even if the other person probably doesn't share the same views. It should come as no surprise that there are negative consequences when other editors opinions are not taken into account and basic etiquette is ignored. I believe that these situations can be avoided if people with different political and religious views agree to disagree agreeably. In recent days Roscelese has shown signs of being more willing to have a discourse with editors, but there is a previous pattern of behavior on her part that is apparently being ignored.Lordvolton (talk) 04:52, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

This discussion appears to be conclusive that Badmintonhist needs to be given a final warning, so I have done that. I expect that an administrator will immediately block Badmintonhist if Roscelese points to a single new instance of Badmintonhist following her to an article. Binksternet (talk) 01:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Hardly. You have the same group of supporters commenting here as last time. Expect whatever you wish, but that has no basis in reality. Arkon (talk) 03:07, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

So Black Kite, Gamaliel and me are somehow not part of reality? That's an indefensible position you've taken.

How about offering a positive contribution to this discussion? Please tell us what you propose be done about the observed stalking problem. Binksternet (talk) 03:29, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Black Kite, Gameliel and you are certainly a part of something. How about not issuing warnings, particularly final ones, to people you are in a dispute with. Arkon (talk) 03:30, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

To add, the expectation that has no basis in reality is that some admin "will immediately block Badmintonhist...", when no such consensus from uninvolved admins/editors has been reached. Your little club has no ability to dictate such. Arkon (talk) 03:34, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe the relevant passage from WP:Wikihounding is "correct use of an editor's history includes fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles." On that basis I think I can defend every intervention I've made in articles that Roscelese has been (mis)editing. Badmintonhist (talk) 04:57, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I think this edit from a few hours ago sums up what you are doing wrongly quite simply. I have issued a final warning for this, too. So the answer is no, you can't defend yourself. I looked at your editing pattern as well and I would not have agreed in the previous ANI filing if it were the case. Even after the previous ANI we have this today (the sources are in the Wikilinked article), and this attack on the other editor. That bolded section you mention above does not mean following an editor to multiple articles and reverting just because you disagree with them, it means fixing actual problems with the articles ("unambiguous errors" is quite clear). Not to mention your previous personal attacks on the other editor. There are 4,000,000+ articles on Wikipedia; please go and find the 99.999% that Roscelese hasn't edited. Black Kite (talk) 07:09, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Lordvolton, I'll put it a different way, whatever the alleged problems with Roscelese's behaviour when it comes to communication, it doesn't seem justify any alleged stalking. If you have problems for the,, I suggest you use a suitable form of dispute resolution. For example, if you've already tried to resolve it with them you can open an RFCU if you think someone else with certify. I would note whatever form of dispute resolution you choose, you will need to be willing to provide actual diffs not unsupported allegations. Nil Einne (talk) 06:11, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• If there happens to be any traces of doubt, a cursory look at the provided refs by someone entirely uninvolved, namely me, indicates there is indeed a substantial issue here, including violations of WP:BATTLE. Any further disruption by Badmintonhist should result in a major preventative block up to and including an indef. This is stalking behavior that cannot be tolerated by our community. Jusdafax 11:50, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I think we can agree that there was a series of events that led to this moment. Some of them may have been self inflicted. The evidence is in the editorial history of both parties. A cursory review by an unbiased third party, not personal editing partners of either party, could probably bring some closure to this question. My experience with them has been recent and I've noticed an alarming trend in my dealings with Roscelese, although she has improved lately. If an independent third party determines that there has been agenda driven edits and behavior that isn't within the spirit of Wikipedia then corrective action needs to take place. Simply because an editor feels a sense of camaraderie toward either party shouldn't determine the outcome -- in fact those people should probably recuse themselves and let others make the final call. I'm perfectly happy to do just that as long as others who have a history of siding with one party or another remove themselves from the discussion as well. I think that's fair. Otherwise we have a second topic to discuss -- cyber bullying on behalf of editors who cry wolf without there being any due process. I've read some of the threats and I don't think they've taken a tone of cordiality. In fact, I don't see much discourse between the accused and the self appointed prosecutors. This doesn't look like justice to me -- it looks like the schoolyard during recess, but that doesn't mean we cannot rise above it. Lordvolton (talk) 14:51, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
• Given that there is an Arbcom decision about abortion, this should really go to WP:AE. It looks to me like the undoing of Roscelese's edits is motivated by content disagreements over some issues closely related to abortion controversies in the US, rather than being merely the schoolboys' type of personality-driven bullying. The diffs provided in the opening statement are all from that same topic area. Someone not using his real name (talk) 15:41, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
  • To be fair, Roscelese's undoing of my edits (and others) could be described as content disagreements over abortion. In the past I've attempted to find a neutral third party to discuss my editing disagreements with Roscelese, but rather than allowing a neutral third party to intervene she nominated the article for deletion, so I know that her tactics can be insensitive to the work of others. That doesn't mean the right thing to do is retaliate in an uncivil manner, two wrongs do not make a right. However, rather than focusing solely on "stalking" and some of the cyber bullying that may have occurred as a result of her allegations against an editor she finds disagreeable -- we need to also carefully review the repeated reverts by Roscelese on the topic of abortion (Douglas Karpen, Rachel's Vineyard, and Catholic Church and abortion in the United States, etc). As Black Kite points out, there are over 4 million articles to edit, which includes topics other than abortion. Both parties have every right to edit articles on abortion, but they don't have a right to mistreat others or engage in POV edits. I encourage everyone to review the editing history of both parties before taking sides and administering punishment. Perhaps we need to move this discussion over to WP:AE to get a fair review of the editorial behavior of all parties involved.Lordvolton (talk) 17:10, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
    • I'm not going to address your comments about my edit history, because I think that my edits speak for themselves and that pointing them out as supposed evidence that I've been editing badly will backfire on you. However, I do not like your assertion that I brought Badmintonhist's stalking upon myself by not liking him; that's a very unsavory suggestion. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:21, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Lordvolton, you seem to be on the brink of suggesting that Roscelese or Badmintonhist should step away from abortion articles, to let the other one hold sway. Looking at their article and talk space interaction, it appears that Roscelese edits abortion articles first, then Badmintonhist comes in later. If one of the two editors is to step away, I say it should be Badmintonhist. This sounds like an abortion topic ban for Badmintonhist, or a one-way interaction ban. Is that what you wanted to suggest? Binksternet (talk) 23:29, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• Funny, I didn't see that at all in what Lordvolton suggested. I do agree that Roscelese's edits "speak for themselves" but probably not in the way she thinks they do. For example, she recently effectively deleted (she is not an administrator) two "pro-life" articles, Virginia Society for Human Life and California Right to Life Committee by redirecting them to National Right to Life Committee. Since there's nothing on the California organization there and a mere mention of the Virginia organization, Roscelese provided readers with "a bridge to nowhere." Her editing is fiercely anti-anti-abortion. 04:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC) PS: Those "redirects" came shortly after she was unsuccessful in getting another "pro-life" article,Rachel's Vineyard, deleted through the normal process. Badmintonhist (talk) 05:06, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• Badminton's actions are ongoing, and the stalking seems incredibly apparent, as does the battleground behaviour. Given how heavily warned they have been, why are they still allowed to contribute? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:23, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Binksternet, earlier I stated that some of the issues that Roscelese's encounters might be self inflicted. A lot of this relates to her shameless POV editing. I've filed an ANI complaint which can be viewed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#POV_editing_by_User:Roscelese Lordvolton (talk) 03:42, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Badmintonhist is clearly tracking Roscelese's contributions and following Roscelese around reverting her edits across multiple articles. He seems to be motivated in large part by personal dislike for Roscelese (e.g. [61]). This is a textbook case of inappropriate hounding and needs to stop. I would prefer to avoid a block, since Badmintonhist has a long record of contributions here and is undoubtedly capable of finding constructive ways to edit that don't involve following Roscelese around. MastCell ^Talk 17:50, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• There is no indication that he intends to stop.[62][63] Mathsci (talk) 07:01, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• • Ever stop to think why he would be reverting her edits? Is the answer as simple as "personal dislike". Could the issue run deeper than that Mathsci? What are the mathematical odds that ALL of us have a personal dislike for her? I don't personally dislike her and I've told her that in the past. I don't know her, or you, in the real world. You could be the nicest math wizard on the planet, but that doesn't mean you're concept of justice in this instance is correct. Don't let your kneejerk reaction that it's "personal dislike" cloud your judgment. Consider the alternatives as well. Maybe she is doing something wrong.. and the more folks like you ignore it the bigger the problem becomes.Lordvolton (talk) 09:22, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Unresolved issue...

Original here, and the behavior is continuing: [64],[65],[66], [67],[68]. MSJapan (talk) 18:54, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I would recommend a block for this user in question. Please do inform the user about this ANI too.  A m i t  웃   15:46, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

As it was the last post I made on his talk, and this is ongoing with no response from him, I assumed the original notice was valid, but I will renotify. MSJapan (talk) 18:08, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

As I am now at a location with internet access, I am responding now. The categories which I have created were never intended for the purposes of attack. They are simply meant to show that every profession, religion, and institution has had members who have failed to live up to the standards of common decency. This is every bit as important a part of the history of these professions, religions, and institutions as the positive work which each of them has done. Should you desire to remove articles from the categories which are not sourced within the article text, I have no objection. I also would have no objection if you were to create a sister category about Knights of Columbus with criminal or even political convictions. I would advise you, however, against jumping to conclusions about my motivations or presuming that I cannot prove what I write if the need arises. Personally, I think you are going on a fishing expedition in order to save a certain institution from bad press. Ironically, one of the reasons why I created Category:Freemasons with criminal convictions is because certain conspiracy theorists whom I know have attempted to persuade me that the Masonic Fraternity never allows its own to be convicted of anything. This I know to be preposterous. I desired only to prove it to those who do not wish to believe.Kingstowngalway (talk) 00:44, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:CATEGORY says "The central goal of the category system is to provide navigational links to all Wikipedia pages...which readers, knowing essential—defining—characteristics of a topic, can browse...topics that are defined by those characteristics." The categories you have created (such as Freemasons with criminal convictions and the various police misconduct cats) are not dealing with defining characteristics; they are dealing with trivial intersection in the former case, and subjective misapplication in the latter. That the Freemason criminal cats were created to "prove something" (your words) is a violation of WP:POINT. This is also not a case of "no Internet" - you have plenty of edits over the last few days, and when the initial ANI was filed, rather than respond here, you appealed to another user instead, after which that user attempted to intervene on your behalf. MSJapan (talk) 01:36, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Whether or not the categories are legitimate is a separate question that this is not the right place to discuss. The discussion has already started somewhere else. The simple fact is that MSJapan is once again using WP:ANI to intimidate anyone who does not share his, erm, eccentric and ahistorical views of Freemasonry. Kingstongalway is a blameless editor who had no intention of creating attack categories - as shown by his behaviour when creating the categories (he was at the time creating a number of categories of criminals by occupational group including Catholic priests and policemen). He is also, unlike MSJapan, not a disruptive user as shown by the fact that he has only been on one ANI archive while MSJapan has been on 138 ANI archive pages - that's 17% of the total. Any disciplinary action against Kingstowngalway would be a triumph for the bullying and gameplaying of MSJapan, who really needs a good dose of discipline himself. JASpencer (talk) 10:40, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

If I have chosen over the years not to respond to statements on my talkpage, it is because I choose to let source citations speak for me. If you had really examined my history as meticulously as you say, you would have taken notice of this. When something I have written is challenged, I search out as much info as I am able to find. If I realize that my original source was mistaken, I simply do not challenge changes to what I have written. The articles which you have altered I have either added source citations or allowed your edits to stand. Kingstowngalway (talk) 16

54, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry but I regularly comment on ANI - doesn't mean that I lose my right to report on ANI. So commenting on that aspect is senseless here unless you could provide diff's to say the ANI is always for bullying.  A m i t  웃   14:26, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no BOOMERANG here - I found an issue of recent editing contrary to policy in my editing area, did some digging, and found the same in multiple unrelated areas over a much longer period of time. This establishes a pattern of behavior detrimental to the encyclopedia, including widespread miscategorization of articles related to his own mass creation of categories, a general lack of sourcing of additions to the encyclopedia, and a BLP violation. I have provided diffs to support my aasertions. The user in question has displayed an unwillingness to communicate previously and has demonstrated through conduct a lack of understanding/awareness of the problem. Lack of knowledge of policy does not excuse one from being bound by it, and lack of knowledge should not even be an issue for a longtime editor. Given what I located in the short term, coupled with similar notices on the user's talk page going back to 2008 (and a total lack of response by the user to those issues over that same period of time), I am concerned that this may in fact be a years-long problem that is outside my scope as an individual to address. That is why I brought the issue here. MSJapan (talk) 14:52, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Your POV editing around this area and systematic bullying of editors who get in your way is a far more serious years long problem, as shown by your attempt to block an editor who had never previously darketned the door of ANI (or been blocked. JASpencer (talk) 18:43, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I hadn't asked for a remedy at all, which is a good point, so thanks for reminding me, and here it is: I would like to request an editing restriction on category creation and complete nontolerance for adding unsourced material for Kingstowngalway. MSJapan (talk) 13:56, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Could there be a restriction on MSJapan posting in ANI and other admin pages. In the UK it's called wasting police time amd the US it's vexatious litigation. 138 ANI archive pages with MSJapan is unhealthy in a grown man (particularly one so unsuited for Admin status) and really should be discouraged. This is a bogus complaint only intended as a bullying tactic and is part of a continuing pattern of willfully disruptive behaviour towards editors who disagree with him. It's mildly amusing (and far less frequent) when it's done to an editor experienced with his ways who just bites back, but when it's an editor who's never been banned and probably never even heard of ANI - as in the case here - it's actually quite distressing. Kingstongalway's crime is trying to build an encyclopedia without realising that he was stepping into one of the taboos (the link between English and American Freemasonry and corruption) of a Masonic group who are admitedly less influential than they were, but are all the more vicious for it. My recomendation is to close this and send MSJapan away with a flea in his ear. JASpencer (talk) 22:12, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

And as an example of the disruptive behaviour from MSJapan he kindly left an example as I was typing the above [69]. This is pretty typical of his MO which is to try to tie down inconvenient other editors with things such as deletion nominations. JASpencer (talk) 22:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Morgellons and Talk:Morgellons

For the past couple of months or so we have had continuous problems at Morgellons and Talk:Morgellons. Most of these problems have been caused by tenditious editing by two users, User:Drgao and to a lesser extent, User:Erythema. They have repeatedly attempted to add low quality primary fringe studies to this medical article rather than secondary sources. There are numerous examples on the talk page, including this one [70] which is now in the archives (which, as an aside, gives a good indication of how long this has gone on). Many of us have explained WP:MEDRS and countless other policies to both of them, to no avail. Drgao has been asked, on his talk page to avoid personal attacks, to avoid commenting on editors and instead to comment on content, again to no avail [71]. Finally, User:Zad68 took the issue to WP:DRN [[72]. A clear decision was reached at DRN and the sources were deemed inappropriate. However, yesterday Drgao took these same sources to WP:RSN [73]. When this was done Drgao did not inform other parties to the DRN process that (s)he was doing this, so Zad68 let others know. Drgao then complained that Zad68 was stalking him/her and continued beating the dead horse of these unreliable sources [74]. I am asking that both Drgao and Erythema be topic banned from Morgellons and related articles. Thanks. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:19, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Dbrodbeck is grossly misrepresenting the situation here. I was entitled to submit my inquiry to the WP:RSN page, because as far as I understand, the sources in question were only deemed unreliable by the DRN for the Morgellons article, but not deemed unreliable in general. Therefore, since I was considering using these sources in other Wikipedia articles, I wanted to get an opinion on their general reliability.

So Dbrodbeck is grossly misrepresents the situation when he says I was "beating the dead horse of these unreliable sources". My WP:RSN inquiry was legitimate. And since my intention was to use these sources in unrelated articles, there would be no particular requirement to inform the editors at the Morgellons article. Furthermore, since I have found these editors to be quite adversarial towards my suggestions, I was hoping to leave these people behind, but to no avail. In fact, their group presence at my WP:RSN inquiry only served to derail that inquiry. I suggest that they need not have derailed that inquiry, and could have helped me instead, but they chose not to.

Dbrodbeck and other editors at the Morgellons article have been less than helpful in my dealings with them. For example, these editors decided that certain peer-reviewed sources were unreliable, but they would not explain to me their decision process as to why these sources were unreliable, just telling me that only they are properly able to interpret Wikipedia guidelines, as if there is some black art to such interpretation, only known to a special few. I am fully familiar with Wikipedia guidelines, but apparently, according to these editors, there is a special way to interpret Wikipedia guidelines that I don't know, or am not privy to, but Dbrodbeck and other editors at the Morgellons article are privy to. Each time I asked these editors to clarify for me their decision process as to why these sources were unreliable, they failed to provide any explanation, other than saying that only they know how to interpret Wikipedia guidelines, and I don't. I found this behavior condescending. I also found it worrying that the process of determining whether a source is reliable is so open to interpretation, with these editors' interpretations being superior to mine (or so they told me).

Even in the DRN decision (which I am honor bound to comply with, and I do so comply), the sources were deemed unreliable, but without any details being given on the decision process. I do not contest the DRN decision, because I agreed to comply, and I keep to my word; but it does seem strange to me how editors can just decide that a source is unreliable, without quoting any specific Wikipedia guidelines on which the decision is based. My view is that more transparency in the decision process in determining reliable sources would be a good thing, and would help prevent disputes like this one. Disputes arise when editors say that "only we know how to interpret Wikipedia guidelines, but you do not". More transparency is required to prevent such condescending remarks and the disputes that ensue from them. Drgao (talk) 02:51, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

DEADHORSE, IDHT 198.199.134.100 (talk) 03:58, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

See this conversation Drgao (talk) 04:23, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support indefinite topic ban, but on all medical articles, as an involved editor. This editor (Drgao) has been a huge time sink, and a distraction to multiple WP:MED editors from content creation through their tendentious WP:IDHT behavior. Despite multiple attempts by multiple editors, they have shown no understanding of the issues involved, specifically correct application of WP:MEDRS. As they have expressed a desire to use the same bad sources in other medical articles (just yesterday in their posting on WP:RSN), it is necessary to topic ban them from medical articles to stop the disruption until they can show an understanding of how our sourcing guidelines work, and can work collaboratively. Yobol (talk) 13:38, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic ban on all articles related to medicine for user:Drgao. This user have persistantly refused to abide by a wide range of WP policies, including WP:MEDRS, and this problematic behavior is likely to occur not only on articles directly related to Morgellons disease, but to any other topic related to medicine. The length and intensity of his attempts to introduced unrelaibly sourced material into the article, coupled with his persistant tendentious and disruptive editting and dead horse argumentation, make it reasonable to assume that this behavior will continue both on the Morgellons article and elsewhere. Yesterday, I warned user:Drgao several times myself about numerous violations of both our content and our sourcing policies and guidelines, as several other editors had regularly been also warning him for the same for the past two months. Administrator user:MastCell also told him that his "tendentiousness is becoming a major drain on the time and goodwill of other constructive editors" and that he would block him "for persistent tendentious and disruptive editing, in order to enable other editors to improve the article constructively and in an environment free of disruption." The editors responses indicated that he has numerous fundamental misunderstandings of what WP is and how it works, and has no intention of modifying his uncollaborative behavior, and indeed had plans on using unerliable sources in other articles as well. As such, he is incompetant to edit productively on any article where strict adherence to WP:MEDRS is expected. Would support a total community ban for this editor until he can reassure the community that he will edit in compliance with WP content and behavioral policies and guidelines. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 13:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• • Comment: reserving judgement on User:Erythema until I examine the evidence more fully. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 14:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Question. On what specific evidence is Dbrodbeck's suggested topic ban for User:Erythema based? AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:09, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I think [75] and [76] as well as [77] and [78] show a lack of understanding of our medical article sourcing requirements. Dbrodbeck (talk) 14:29, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Erythema seems to have only made one post [79] since the dispute resolution process closed a week ago. While this post might well be seen as argumentative, I'd say that in of itself it wouldn't justify a block. I'd suggest that it might be best to give Erythema the benefit of the doubt, and rather than block, warn him/her that future conduct will be under close scrutiny, and that continuing as before isn't an option. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:42, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I would be fine with that. The caveat about future conduct is important. Dbrodbeck (talk) 14:44, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support indef topic ban of Drgao (I am an involved editor). I think this version of the user's page illustrates a number of the problems, including this illustrative quote: OK, I will try to avoid ad hominem strikes, and battle only in the arena of the actual subject matter. [80]. -- Scray (talk) 14:39, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic ban for user:Drgao on all articles related to medicine. (I've been marginally involved) It seems self-evident that Drago is unwilling to accept the clear consensus over sources, and likewise unwilling to accept the broader principles regarding medical sourcing - his/her suggestion at WP:RSN that the rejected sources might be appropriately used elsewhere [81] is about as clear evidence of tendetiousness as one could get. Enough is enough. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:57, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Please see my comment above for why I thought my WP:RSN inquiry was legitimate. I understood that source reliability decisions only apply in the context of the article they were discussed in. So since I was considering using these sources in other articles, my WP:RSN inquiry should have been accepted and considered. Drgao (talk) 03:01, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support indefinite block for both users. The Erythema account is abiding by the DRN resolution, but they're clearly a SPA and continue to demonstrate an inability to understand WP policies. The Drgao account is and will continue to be an enormous timesink and even continued to argue with the admin in RSN after being told that doing so would lead to a block; I just don't see a personality like that as being able to maintain a relationship with the WP community that enriches either the community or the user. I'm the IP user 198.199.134.100 posting from home; I usually edit from work. 69.23.116.182 (talk) 15:12, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic ban for Drgao, for all the reasons Dbrodbeck outlined above. This user has shown willful disregard for Wikipedia policies on sources, agreed to abide by arbitration and then violated that agreement, repeatedly engaged in personal attacks, and has asserted ownership rights on this article. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 16:54, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Neutral on block for Erythema. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 16:54, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indef WP:MEDICINE topic ban for Drgao (as involved editor) - this would include all articles in WP:MEDICINE scope, biomedical content in all other articles, and associated discussion on Talk pages. What was brought to light at the DRN discussion and the following discussion at Talk:Morgellons was Drgao's inability or unwillingness to understand and apply WP:MEDRS, the biomedical content sourcing guideline, in line with consensus. The DRN discussion listed twelve editors having from modest to extensive editing experience who were able to review the sources against the WP:MEDRS guideline and didn't have trouble all coming to the same conclusion about them: they are not reliable for sourcing biomedical claims. TransporterMan was able to do the same thing without difficulty. At Drgao's RSN discussion, AndyTheGrump and Dominus Vobisdu didn't find a problem with it. Instead of pausing to consider that his/her own interpretation and application of WP:MEDRS might be problematic, Drgao continues to question whether it's everyone else who's got it wrong, demanding repeatedly that WP:MEDRS be explained again and again, despite that fact that Talk:Morgellons is full of hundreds of kilobytes of futile attempts by many different editors to explain it, with only WP:IDHT in response. Further tendentious editing is evidenced by Drgao's continuation of discussing the exact same thing that the DRN participants committed not to discuss after its conclusion - the WP:MEDRS fitness of the exact same sources - with a stated desire to use them in other articles. Because the issue is not with Morgellons in particular but with Drgao's understanding and acceptance of Wikipedia's biomedical sourcing guideline, the topic ban should be WP:MEDICINE-scope content. Regarding Erythema, there's not enough evidence to recommend a sanction at this time. Zad68 19:11, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Please see my comment above for why I thought my WP:RSN inquiry was legitimate. I understood that source reliability decisions only apply in the context of the article they were discussed in. So since I was considering using these sources in other articles, my WP:RSN inquiry should have been accepted and considered. Drgao (talk) 03:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Neutral I express no opinion either for or against the actions proposed here, but am available to answer any questions which any closer or administrator might wish to ask about the prior proceedings in which I was involved as a neutral party. (I may be mostly offline from about 22:00 UTC today through about 13:00 UTC on July 29, so if a quicker answer is needed, you might give me a heads up by email.) Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:36, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban for Drgao. (No comment on Erythema.) When an editor responds to a consensus at RSN with the assertion that other editors are telling lies and are "just not honest enough" about Wikipedia's policies on reliable sourcing, it throws up a big red flag. It appears, based on the information above, that this is an ongoing, persistent, and otherwise intractable IDHT problem. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:49, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Drgao nor Erythema have done anything wrong. They simply have a more neutral opinion than the editors here who have ganged up on them. Sierraparis (talk) 21:26, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Experienced editors who review the situation for the first time have unanimously agreed that Drgao and Erythema are in the wrong here.

Would it be possible to also seek similar corrective action for Sierraparis or does a new ANI report need to be opened? Problematic editor at Talk:Morgellons, SPA, IDHT, etc, etc. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 22:56, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Update: Sierraparis account just claimed to not be here to edit, but as a "neutral journalist". 198.199.134.100 (talk) 23:36, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

(involved admin) So, block Sierraparis per WP:NOTHERE? I don't think we're there yet, but, if he fails to rescind his comment that only editors who know Morgellons patients should edit, it should be considered. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:57, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

support (involved) medical top ban for Drgao (Btw, it looks like they've been involved in pushing the infectious etiology for conditions other than moregellons, and I don't know if the references are up to snuff their either). Erythema and Sierraparis haven't quite reached the threshold of tendentiousness required for a topic ban, but are rapidly heading in that direction, since neither seem to have any reason to be on wikipedia other than to argue that apparently all of wikipedia is biased against them. Sailsbystars (talk) 00:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I may be biased, but I think Drgao is doing a great job in improving the Morgellons article. Drgao (talk) 04:05, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite ban from medical articles, as use seems to be unable to comprehend or abide by WP:MEDRS. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 04:28, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• "OPPOSE" Drgao has much to contribute to the discussion of this article and there is no reason whatsoever for banning this editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sierraparis (talk • contribs) 04:58, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic ban. The disruption and IDHT needs to stop. I'd even support a community imposed indefinite ban. There seems to be an inability to understand our most important policies. While we're at it, User:Sierraparis and User:Erythema need to be included in the topic ban. They are indistinguishable from twins/clones of Drgao. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:53, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support indefinite topic ban The distribution wastes a considerable amount of editor time, and the editor doesn't appear capable of getting the issues. This topic ban should not be lifted until the editor shows an understanding of policy, IRWolfie- (talk) 08:37, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support indef topic ban I've checked the Morgellons talk page & it's last two archives and note that user:Drgao is displaying continual disruptive IDHT behaviour. Suggest swift expansion of the ban if s/he takes this behaviour to other wp:FRINGEy medical matters. Currently Neutral on sanctioning user:Erythema. Now also Support indef topic ban for user:Erythema rgds 188.222.98.201 (talk) 08:50, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I believe that Erythema, Drgao, and Sierraparis have honestly tried to abide by WP policies and I still believe that the NPOV of this article could be greatly improved. However, I don't believe in beating a deadhorse, and I do not feel that anything will be achieved by trying to discuss this topic further when the majority of the editors are not receptive. If you feel that Erythema, Sierraparis and Drgao have not followed policy then copying the relevant sections of policy would have been helpful. Many times they have asked for more specific objective justification concerning rejection of their proposals and have been met with hostility or sarcastic comments rather than useful discussion. One example I can think of was something to the effect that "fair and balanced is not what we do here". Erythema (talk) 16:54, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

comment From the very beginning of when you & Drgao started to edit the talk page (late May) other editors repeatedly gave you links to the relevant policies and explained - again repeatedly - how those policies judged that the sources you were advocating were not suitable, and that your editing/talk page etiquette were failing to adhere to the communities norms of behaviour. The majority of 'hostility & sarcasm' was coming from user:Drgao and if some of the other editors were occasionally testy it was because of the abovementioned & amply evidenced tendentious editing. As for "We don't do fair and balanced here, read WP:UNDUE" This was in the context of the questionable reliability of your supporting sources and was discussed in Archive 9 here. 188.222.98.201 (talk) 04:20, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Red Dawn (2012 film)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Kelapstick recently fully protected this article due to a content dispute. The crux of the matter was an editor who kept expanding the plot well beyond the limits defined by WP:FILMPLOT, would not explain his actions, and would not discuss the matter on the talk page. However, the page is now fully protected with the inordinately long and terribly written plot summary in place. It needs to be reverted to the last stable version before the edit war. Kelapstick is on vacation, so I cannot ask him to do it. Would another admin. mind taking a look? Thanks! ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 13:27, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

The page's protection expired yesterday. Reaper Eternal (talk) 14:19, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, for pete's sake... Thanks. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 00:49, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, Kelapstick is never on vacation, though he's often in transit between one weird place and another. Drmies (talk) 16:52, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:EuropeanHistory2011

Another sock has appeared in this user's draw: User:StopCyberStalkers2008.--ukexpat (talk) 13:31, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

And already blocked by User:Acroterion - thanks.--ukexpat (talk) 13:32, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• This is old news, but 30December2012 (talk · contribs) is another one. Still, out of evil, good was brought forth through the creation of Herbert Volney, and I encourage Ukexpat to bring that up to DYK requirements. Drmies (talk) 16:59, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Zollerriia

Zollerriia (talk · contribs) has been editing Wikipedia since 2010. His userpage has claimed since 2011 that he retired, but this is clearly not so. I first noticed a problem with his behavior when he removed Template:Start date and age from a page because it wasn't being used to indicate the age of a human (diff). I checked his recent contributions and found several problematic edits, such as requiring items in a list to all have pages of their own and leaving messages to editors who disagree in the page's source (diff 1) (diff 2) (diff 3), flagging every edit he makes as minor, even extremely major ones (diff), removing links for no reason (diff), and blatantly lying in his edit summaries (diff 1) (diff 2). I'm assuming good faith, but his talk page shows that multiple people and bots, over a span of several years, have all informed him that his edits are not all constructive, but he does not appear to have replied to anything. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 04:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Bumping this, as it hasn't received any response yet but is about to be archived. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 14:27, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Errrr...you want us to block him so that he actually reads his talkpage, then goes into his preferences to remove the "mark all edits as minor"? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Ok, I have used the "e-mail this user" function to draw their attention to the editing/behaviour concerns that are listed on their talkpage. I have asked them to review them, and act accordingly. I have offerred to assist them if they have difficulties in understanding or changing settings. Anything else? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I guess not. Thanks for looking into it. --71.199.125.210 (talk) 15:06, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I've brought this back from the archive because his behavior has restarted. He doesn't appear to have fixed anything, and there's still no evidence that he reads his talk page. Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:03, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

You don't ever bring something this old from the archive - you open a new filing, and refer to the old one! (✉→BWilkins←✎) 00:20, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

"if it is already archived, remove it from the archive and restore it to this page" When is the cutoff for doing that? Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:33, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

About 2 hours after it's archived. This is now considered to be a new incident, and the previous was unactionned at the time. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 01:27, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, sorry about that. Jackmcbarn (talk) 01:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Besides, I just reviewed has last few edits - other than the fact that he has not turned off "mark all edits as minor" (which is not a blockable issue), what's wrong with the last few edits??? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

We removed the mark-all-edits-as-minor preference years ago; apparently he's actively marking them as minor. No comment on your statement otherwise. Nyttend (talk) 14:33, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

This edit concerns me. He's twisting policy and enforcing his own rules. Here (older edit) is the guideline he refers to in his edit summary. He does the same here. Also, he's recently added a new "guideline" to another article here. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:42, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Request for move (no quarrel)

Resolved

-DePiep (talk) 19:46, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to ask an admin to perform a non-violent move. Two serious editors are involved and agreeing, but there is a protection.

Move request: {{IPAsym}} → {{IPA symbol}}. Problem: {{IPAsym}} is protected.

Background discussion is here, just to illustrate the seriousness. And of course Redirect is cheap.

Editor involved will be notified - remember: there is an issue but not a quarrel. -DePiep (talk) 22:02, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

1h gone. -DePiep (talk) 23:05, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

2.5 h gone. Why be admin when there is no fight? -DePiep (talk) 00:39, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Oi, the admins are volunteers just the same as you are, and we get paid just the same whether your requested move is handled in 30 minutes or not. Relax. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 02:11, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

And I'll bet you got no response because this really is not an incident at all, but a move request (as you note). I'll signal boost it at the main Admin noticeboard. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 02:15, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes I noted all that. Especially that an "incident" is not always a "trouble". -DePiep (talk) 19:46, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• This has already been listed at WP:RM#Technical requests. Apteva (talk) 02:46, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

   Done -- tariqabjotu 03:09, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

   Done Could someone do a WP:Null edit to {{IPA symbol}} though, so that the edits to /doc show up? Apteva (talk) 03:40, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The doc page appears updated to me. Either someone has performed the null edit for you, or you need to clear your cache. Best, -- Diannaa (talk) 19:00, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

POV editing by User:Roscelese

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

It's edits like this that cause people to question Roscelese's motives:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Choose_Life_license_plates&diff=565918255&oldid=562671721

The article is about Choose Life License plates that are available in 29 states and the citation she inserted to support this fact is an article about Choose Life License plates being revoked in the state of Rhode Island. A cursory review of her edits appear to reveal agenda driven edits on specific topics.

Here is another recent example of her agenda driven edits:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crisis_pregnancy_center&diff=565917982&oldid=564947981

This article is about Crises Pregnancy Centers. In the paragraph discussing CPCs receiving government funding she inserts a citation critical of CPCs from a very dubious source: the pro choice network. This wouldn't be so inflammatory if she didn't have a history of reverting others for citing "lifenews" and "Operation Rescue" as unreliable. She also nominates for deletion articles opposing her pro choice views: Rachel's Vineyard, Douglas Karpen, etc. Most of her reverts are unilateral and she prevents others from editing by indiscriminate reverts that don't comport with her POV.

Here is my first attempt to resolve this without seeking outside intervention:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Roscelese#Douglas_Karpen

I think it's time to caution her against edits that are clearly designed to raise the ire of those who do not agree with a blatantly pro choice agenda that she aggressively promotes on as many articles related to abortion as she can locate. As these provocative edits illustrate, it's not even done in a subtle way. Lordvolton (talk) 23:30, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• I was not aware that adding a newspaper citation in order to update a number (which, incidentally, showed that more states had adopted the anti-abortion license plates) was considered a POV edit now. Good to know! Joking aside, Lordvolton's crusade against me because I disagreed with his addition of flagrantly unreliable sources to a BLP, subsequently deleted, is getting old. Using ANI to pursue frivolous complaints like this wastes everyone's time. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:12, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• • Update a number? The focus of the article you inserted is the revocation of the Choose Life License Plates. However, the cite relates to the number of the states that allow the plates. Your insertion of a citation that highlights they're being REVOKED relates to your POV. Meanwhile, I'm waiting for you to defend the "pro choice network" as an unbiased source. It’s unfortunate that you don't apply the same rules to your own edits as you do to the myriad of reverts you impose on those who do not share your POV.Lordvolton (talk) 03:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Frivolous complaint, the three links show no problematic behavior from Roscelese. In fact, the claim that she added an unreliable source in the second is false, she merely moved it when rearranging sentences. In now-deleted Douglas Karpen, this user was adding a clearly unreliable source (Operation Rescue), which Roscelese was right to revert. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:53, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

If that were the whole story your comments would be correct. Unfortunately, you've left out the part that doesn't support your position. What happened after she undid that edit? I attempted be fair about it and added multiple reliable sources in place of that citation which were immediately reverted by Roscelese. Those sources included: Washington Times, Dallas Morning News, The National Review, and the New American. When she refused to accept those edits an arbitration request was initiated. What did she do then? She nominated the article for deletion, along with Rachel's Vineyard and a host of other articles dealing with abortion. Nominating an article for deletion under those circumstances is incredibly disrespectful of other people's time and effort. Why not have a discussion about it with the person who is running around finding sources to address the concerns she raised? The reason is that she doesn't care about other people's efforts if they don't comport with her POV.

I encourage you to read my discourse with her:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Roscelese&action=edit&section=6

Finally, you're defending the "pro choice network" citation on the grounds that she "moved it" without any supporting evidence? Even if what you're saying is true, if she was capable of cutting and pasting the citation then she must have also known it was unreliable. Who originally placed that citation there? The citation didn't appear in that section before... she placed it there. She placed that article there because she liked the content that reflected her POV -- irrespective of how inappropriate and inflammatory it would be viewed by editors who are trying to find a common ground with others who don't always share their views.

Roscelese is a militant POV editor. Let's hope that a review of her edits and behavior on Wikipedia will bring some closure to what's been probably going on for a very, very long time.

BTW, here is what she just posted on my talk page that further illustrates my point regarding a general disrespect for others:

• Please don't use ANI to file frivolous complaints. It makes you look bad and wastes everyone's time in addition to your own. I suggest that you read WP:BLP so that you understand why it was wrong of you to repeatedly add unreliable sources to the former article on Douglas Karpen, and give the matter a rest. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:14, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Lordvolton (talk) 03:19, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• The purpose of Wikipedia is to develop an encyclopedia based on WP:RS and WP:NPOV. Is there any evidence that Roscelese has violated a core policy? I ask because the diffs above just show routine editing and I suspect that the OP is perceiving edits as being "agenda driven" because of the OP's particular outlook, which may not be in accord with standard operating procedures here. This report appears related to WP:Articles for deletion/Rachel's Vineyard where we see only valid comments from Roscelese. Johnuniq (talk) 03:46, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm hoping to bring an end what I believe is obvious POV edits and reverts. I only encountered her recently and I assumed this pattern of behavior has been ongoing, but I wasn't 100% certain. Reverting all of my edits and nominating articles for deletion could have been an isolated incident, but it wasn't. I've taken the time to read her earliest archive and her agenda driven edits started from the very beginning and initially Wikipedia admins admonished her to stop with her "rampage" in 2010. It's been three years and apparently nothing has been done.
  • Here is the evidence of how long the editing rampage has persisted: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Roscelese/Archive_1Lordvolton (talk) 04:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
    • You are accusing an editor of "obvious POV edits and reverts" and "agenda driven edits". You have two choices: retract those accusations immediately, or provide precise diffs showing good evidence for your claims. Some latitude is allowed at ANI, but persisting with unsubstantiated accusations against an editor is a personal attack and that is not permitted. It is natural for an editor with an interest in "pro life" matters to see things in a clear-cut way, but articles are not blogs where a person can write whatever they want, and some justification for claims against an editor is required, not a blizzard of links which reveal nothing of concern upon investigation. This noticeboard is for current incidents and there should be no mention of events from the distant past until good evidence of a current problem is produced. Johnuniq (talk) 04:45, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

What she's doing should be obvious to any unbiased observer. I've provided enough links for others to begin their inquiry. However, you don't take my word for it, have a quick look at what another Wikipedia editor has to say about her behavior today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Roscelese_reported_by_User:Capitals00_.28Result:_.29

What is her response? "It's frivolous". It's time to bring her shenanigans to an end. Lordvolton (talk) 07:16, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

When you wrote the above Capitals00 had just been blocked for one week for disruption on religious articles. Please check your facts. Mathsci (talk) 07:33, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

What facts am I supposed to check? I don't know Capitals00 nor do I presume that their opinion is irrelevant simply because they may have been blocked in the past. I don't know if they were blocked nor do I care. If someone calls 911 do they expect the dispatch officer to say, "Um, we checked your record and we see that you have two speeding tickets so we're not going to send any assistance." It's that kind of logic that silences people who have complaints. That's not justice -- that's playing favorites. As you probably already know, they don't allow prosecutors to bring up past crimes as evidence of guilt in criminal court. It would be an unfair and bias the jury, or in this instance to needlessly distract admins from investigating a pattern of abuse.Lordvolton (talk) 07:54, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Please stop these rants. You were wrong, yet you don't seem to be willing to admit it. At the moment you are editing disruptively. Mathsci (talk) 08:03, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not wrong about her pattern of behavior. And we'll eventually get to the bottom of it.Lordvolton (talk) 08:28, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

@Lordvolton: Are you sure you want to use that as evidence? The issue is that Roscelese reverted an edit which included bad writing like "...Nehru has wrote that the way religion are exploited puts barrier to progress...", and which removed what appears to be a very reliable source asserting that the subject was an "Agnostic atheist". Since then, the editor that Roscelese reverted has been blocked for a week, so it appears Roscelese is doing good work protecting the encyclopedia from people using article to reflect particular points of view. Editors like Roscelese attract discontent, but they perform a very useful function. Johnuniq (talk) 07:48, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Separate from the legitimacy of the revert -- which may be a fine point -- is the lack of discourse. I've personally experienced it when she reverted edits without any discourse. Sometimes she has good points. For example, I can see why she might not like Operation Rescue sourced (although she seems okay with using the Pro Choice Network as a source) ... but when I went to the trouble of finding multiple sources that few would question they were reverted again. The two examples I provided at the beginning of this section are examples of her bias -- read the articles she sourced and the context. I don't mind people taking issue with bad edits or even good edits, but when they refuse to have a discourse and make unilateral edits we end up here. When she is nominating article after article that is pro life for deletion, unilaterally reverting edit after edit, and refusing to apply the same standards to her own edits that's an example of POV editing in my opinion.Lordvolton (talk) 08:28, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• • Assuming that I am still allowed to bring evidence to this forum, here, in my view, are the two most blatant recent examples of Roscelese's anti "pro-life" agenda. After failing to get the "pro-life" article Rachel's Vineyard deleted by the normal process she almost immediately effectively deleted two other "pro-life" articles on her own by "redirecting" them to a third article, National Right to Life Committee which contained no information on one of them and one sentence on the other. Here are the diffs: [82] and [83]. Curiously, Roscelese had been the last person to substantively edit the Virginia Society for Human Life article about a year and a half earlier. Apparently the artist decided to destoy her own work. Badmintonhist (talk) 04:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
    • There was something wrong with the diff links you posted. I edited your post to repair them. Hope you don't mind. Reyk _YO! 05:04, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Thanks. I'm a horrible klutz with a computer. About as bad as it gets. Badmintonhist (talk) 05:07, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
        • It is always interesting to see editors with a clear POV accusing their POV opponents of editing with a POV. Roscelese isn't perfect and occasionally makes mistakes. Which editor working in highly controversial topics hasn't? That being said, Roscelese is a productive editor who tries to comply with, and usually succeeds in complying with our policies and guidelines. I see no persuasive arguments for any sanctions against Roscelese here. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:23, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm surprised by this comment. Do you follow her edits and the carnage that follows? She regularly reverts without discussion and is as heavy handed as they come. Other editors are complaining about her editorial behavior independent of my observations (see my comment above). Let's stop candy coating what is an obvious pattern of abuse. As long as editors enable her by pretending she's acting within the guidelines of Wikipedia she will not stop being disruptive. There is a reason her editing behavior was described as a "rampage" in 2010 with respect to her abortion edits. If she was willing to cooperatively edit with those who don't share her views we wouldn't be here. It's because she is uncooperative that our time has to be spent shining a light on her abuses. I hope she can change and learn how to have civil discourses with others rather than unilaterally reverting their edits with any discussion, exhibiting double standards with respect to "reliable sources", and being generally insensitive to their time and effort. Lordvolton (talk) 07:37, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

So I take it that you don't see much wrong in effectively deleting articles you don't like by redirecting the reader to other articles that have no information about them? "Bridges to nowhere" are okay in your opinion? Badmintonhist (talk) 06:22, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

If the complaint is about someone redirecting articles, I don't see why we are discussing it at ANI. You need to show that it is disruptive or some such, IRWolfie- (talk) 08:40, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Please close this silliness. Possible boomerang if Lordvolton keeps on pushing this trifle. Cavarrone 08:17, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Rather than being dismissive and making threats, explain yourself. What is trifling about it? Do you honestly believe she doesn't have a history of POV edits on topics related to abortion? She has nominated multiple articles for deletion on the topic, unilaterally reverted edits without discussion, and exhibited a double standard with regard to citation authority. Here are the words of an admin in 2010, "Just a word of advice: I would stop the rampage before you really stir up some hornets' nests. There is no consensus for such a wide-spread change. Additionally, marking your edits as "minor" is an abuse of the feature. The "minor" designation is for non-controversial, trivial changes—something your edits certainly are not. Please stop." --Andy Walsh (talk) 03:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

She was warned about what would happen and she ignored that warning time and again.Lordvolton (talk) 09:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• • • I just see you submitted a report with no basis and no actual incident (the diffs you provided just show your own POV and your battleground attitude but absolutely nothing of substance) and once several editors said you that, you simply don't want to admit you are wrong and you are clutching at straws. And yes, exhuming a warning that Roscolesce received THREE YEARS AGO does not help your cause. Cavarrone 09:37, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

What I provided included links to articles. Did you read the actual articles? No bias? No POV? With respect to the warning in 2010, I didn't feel like going through 16 archives ... I stopped at the first one since it provided all the evidence I needed. The abortion POV edits started from the very beginning. I could provide more recent examples, but I don't think that's going to convince you. If reverting other editors without dialogue (see her talk page for my attempts to cordially stop that behavior), nominating pro life articles for deletion over and over again, and having a double standard as to citation authority is irrelevant then we're just going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of a POV editor. We wouldn't be going through this exercise if she would simply be cordial and find a middle ground with editors that don't share her POV. Those attempts at civility won't work if her POV editing is never brought to light. It's my hope that in the future Roscelese will be able to amicably edit alongside others with whom she does not share the same views. Lordvolton (talk) 10:23, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you referring to articles like Rachel's Vineyard where the lead informs us that "The program that Rachel's Vineyard offers is an opportunity for women to examine their experience with abortion from a pro-life perspective, and identify the ways that abortion has affected them."? Experienced editors recognize that kind of article as a misuse of Wikipedia to promote a certain POV. I have not checked whether the topic satisfies WP:N, but the current wording should make any editor reach for their delete key. Lordvolton has been unable to show any evidence of a problem with Roscelese—all that is offered is links showing standard editing. Re the desire for amicable edits, please supply a link to an article talk page showing a recent discussion where claims of a problem were raised. Johnuniq (talk) 10:37, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

And, once again, having failed to get her way through the normal process for deleting articles in the case of Rachel's Vineyard she then proceeded to effectively delete abortion related articles that she didn't like (Virginia Society for Human Life and California ProLife Council) by redirecting them to an article (National Right to Life Committee) with no information on them. What say yea all to that? Badmintonhist (talk) 11:10, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:ARBAB#Fair criticism and personal attacks. Mathsci (talk) 11:38, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Very interesting. Yep, ol' Roscelese should certainly be reading that each morning before she begins to do her editing. Now how about those redirects? Badmintonhist (talk) 15:25, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Qed237 is making unconstructive edits.

Header change proposal Could we change the header to what it actually is like "content dispute in UEFA Europa League" or something? I think that is more what is going on. Qed237 (talk) 10:20, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi, User QED237 is making unconstructive edits on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%9314_UEFA_Europa_League_qualifying_phase_and_play-off_round and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%9314_UEFA_Europa_League when the official website (http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2014/draws/index.html) says otherwise. 108.162.157.141 (talk) 23:43, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

A couple of things: 1) 108.162 omitted to notify Qed237 of this thread. I've done so. 2) Qed attempted to have 108.162 blocked for vandalism at WP:AIV (diff: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&diff=565953702&oldid=565949677 ). Qed did state that 108.162 "goes after another UEFA link", which looks to me like the primary source (UEFA) is ambiguous. Looks to me like a storm in a teacup content dispute (which I stated on ANI). Tonywalton ^Talk 00:09, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Apparently he/she failed to notify me. I was about to report him or her for the same reason after reporting her to vandalism board (The IP has a lot of warnings not only from me, just look at our talk pages). Anyhow This IP-user keeps changing matchorder despite both me and another user, Chanheigeorge (who started reverting) are of a different mind. We think that the matches should be set according to matchorder. Chanheigeorge is a well respected editor who knows what he is doing and I totally agree with him in this matter. My link had the order we are changing to, before the times where added and now it is based on kickoff-time (and matchnumber when same time). I have started an discussion on the article- talk page Qed237 (talk) 00:03, 27 July 2013 (UTC).

We based our order on http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2014/matches/round=2000467/index.html who had correct order (according to matchnumber) before adding starting-times. Qed237 (talk) 00:09, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

To be honest what you and Chanheigeorge think or are "of a mind" is irrelevant. What does the primary source say? If UEFA has conflicting information (as your statement that 108.162 "goes after another UEFA link" implies) you need either to get together and research what's correct or to report that conflicting information exists. Tonywalton ^Talk 00:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I have now three points below supporting my case. Qed237 (talk) 01:14, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The previous qualifying rounds were based on http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2014/draws/index.html as well. Furthermore, http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/newsid=1973141.html agrees with http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2014/draws/index.html 108.162.157.141 (talk) 00:23, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

No, you are incorrect. The first two rounds where also based on matchnumber. However the matchnumber and the article had the same order then. Qed237 (talk) 00:33, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

No, the previous round was based on the draw. It just happened that the matchnumber followed the same order.108.162.157.141 (talk) 00:40, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

What you are refering to is not the draw order, that show on the pictures in one of your link. They just wrote them down randomly to get the meetings out in an article as fast as possible. Qed237 (talk) 01:24, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

There is definitely conflicting information from UEFA. Look at the pictures 7 and 8 in your last link http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/newsid=1973141.html. There is the order me and chanheigeorge are changing to and was presented at the draw! (Which obviously was the initial information before the article) Qed237 (talk) 00:36, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I have a few points:

• Take a look at he original order on picture 7 and 8 on the link 108.162 so kindly gave me http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/newsid=1973141.html Qed237 (talk) 00:39, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Also look at http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2014/matches/round=2000467/index.html where if you click at the second leg at August 8 ("Third qualifying round: 8 August" in middle of page) it has the same order I like (according to matchnumber) now before the matchtimes are set. Qed237 (talk) 00:39, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Finally look at last year (third round) where the article http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/newsid=1842549.html says one thing and the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012%E2%80%9313_UEFA_Europa_League_qualifying_phase_and_play-off_round goes after matchorder where Videoton has 2009771, AIK has 2009772 and so on. It was sorted according to matchnumber in prevoius years so why change now? Qed237 (talk) 01:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

This appears to be a simple content dispute. Can both parties please clarify what admin involvement is required? Take the discussion to relevant talkpages, please. It's now about 23:25 GMT 27-Jul-2013.If no other admin objects and neither party comes up in the next 12 hours with good reasons why administrator involvement is required I intend to close this. Please sort it out according to Wikipedia guidelines;remember this encyclopædia reports on what other sources have said – it is not a gazetteer. Tonywalton ^Talk 23:26, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The admin involvment was required to stop the edit warring, with a lot of reverting. Since 108.162 has been blocked for 31 hours (until about 7:41 GMT 28 July), after having warnings from other users and from me, it is hard to know what he/she is thinking, but since the pages has been semi-protected he/she cant edit them unless he/she creats an account. Therefore it should not be any more problem at the moment. It is good that the pages are semi-protected now because there has been some amount of vandalism (not from 108.162), which unfortunately happens with articles of active sports-competitions. There is a current discussion on one of the talkpages, where so far two users (except me or 108.162) has commented and one of them is on "my side" and one dont care. I feel that my three points are a pretty strong case (and no user so far agreed with 108.162) but I will continue to watch the talkpage for everyones input (it is on my watchlist). We follow the source (UEFA), but source is ambiguous in this case, which lead to our dispute. Hopefully we can come to an agreement on the article-talkpage and that no admin will be needed. I will, as always, do my best. QED237 (talk) 01:20, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

User:MilesMoney Personal attacks, non-reliable sources and general non-constructive editing.

User:MilesMoney Has been repeatedly using Think Progress and The Daily Kos as reliable sources in a BLP article, and then resorting to personal attacks. On the talk page this has been discussed, but he does not seem to care.

A simple notification to him that The Daily Kos, Think Progress, and The Colbert Report are not reliable sources for BLP issues would be appreciated. Arzel (talk) 03:32, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

User has been notified. Arzel (talk) 03:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't the context of the use be important? For example, I don't think Think Progress should be uniformly excluded as a source for BLP. A current discussion on thinkprogess, is taking place here. Second, as far as being insulting, I would be concerned about WP:boomerang.Casprings (talk) 03:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I'm new here but Arzel has been on my tail from day one. He's following me around, undoing my work, threatening me and trying to get me to stop editing. His edit comments are full of lies, half-truths and insults. I'm really sick of him. Please send him away. Thank you. MilesMoney (talk) 07:04, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Since you are new, perhaps you are unaware that your claims will be much more plausible with diffs demonstrating them. JanetteDoe (talk) 13:52, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The main focus of his attacks have been on Steve King, where he's repeatedly lied about lack of sources. If you look at the section he keeps cutting, it refs ThinkProgress, Washington Post, and DailyKos. It is part of a larger paragraph that refs the Humane Society and Agri-Pulse. One of the secondary sources brings up the coverage of this scandal on the Colbert Report, so we include a link to the primary source for reference. Everything is cited, balanced and accurate, so BLP is not involved.

Since you asked, I tried to grab some diffs, but I'm sure I missed some and included a few that aren't important.

Arzel edit-warring over Steve King:

"Not reliably sourced"

"Now it is just vandalism"

"These ARE NOT RELIABLE SOURCES."

Censoring scarlet letter quote that is easily sourced [84]

Censoring Boehner quote cited by Politico, using false argument

"Repeated inclusion of non-reliable sourcing" but there were already three reliable sources and I then added more

(there may be more edit-war diffs that I missed)

Bonus:

Censoring another article about Steve King by deleting it

Here's where he acts like he owns the article and stays just barely over the line while baiting:

Aggressively attacking Robofish

Insulting Casprings

Attacking Caspring's motives again

"what is your problem?"

"you need to stop editing WP now"

Accusations of activism

Unreasonably taking insult and telling me to stop editing

Bottom line: he doesn't want this accurate stuff in the article so he's trying to intimidate me into silence. Stop him. MilesMoney (talk) 16:56, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

ChrisGualtieri and his method of attempting to defame (yet again)

this editor continues to bring up issues unrelated to the topic at hand, and will not stop. He constantly makes claims of WP:BADFAITH and personal attacks, when it is he who's been doing it. I've gave him a warning several times but this time, he's done it again. shown here: [85] and i stress this isn't the first time he's done it. luckily i have access to a computer just to share this 1 quote, but i can't find the rest of the others this editor does. I'm tired of it, and i'm tired of ANI ignoring the things he does.Lucia Black (talk) 04:06, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Lucia Black, your longstanding grudge against this other editor is clear for all to see, and in my opinion, you would be well advised to ignore the other editor and focus on other things. Continued repetition of your complaints on various administrative noticeboards is unlikely to result in an outcome any different from past complaints. Please move on. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:32, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Time for a two-way interaction ban between both editors, anyone? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:12, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The core of the problem is a simple one, whether or not a full article can and should be devoted to the manga. A second problem exists whether or not a topic level article should be made to handle the 30 something titles, of which 8-10 do not meet N or GNG for their own pages. I want the articles at FA for the anniversary of Toren Smith's passing. I am not dealing with Ryulong or Lucia Black outside of DRN venues; as I indicated in the post she brought me to ANI for. I am serious about going to DRN, Mediation and even Arb Com to solve this situation, but she believes I do not want the problem resolved.[86] I already agreed to formal mediation, but Lucia did not file and I doubt it would be taken without a fair DRN on the matter. So I made the DRN section. This was in response to Lucia's continued WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, after discussing how her concepts of "win, lose or defeat" are "not personal". Especially concerning is: "whether i associate it with defeat and victory is none of my concern."[87] Those post she cited is me defending myself from her accusations of PAs and bad faith. I still AGF and I don't believe her editing is malicious, but it often introduces major errors or cut good content when sourcing is widely available. Our interaction should be minimal, and for at least the time being; purely at DRN venues. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:42, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• I saw this and believe a two way interaction ban is best for both editors and for the community. I fully support Luke's proposal above. Nick (talk) 14:25, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• On an interaction ban: both users are (or at least were) pretty active in the same articles and talk pages. WP:IBAN forbids either of them to respond to the other's comments. This will, undoubtedly, make for some difficult discussions. That's not to say there shouldn't be an IBAN, but I am wondering what its effect will be in those discussions. Drmies (talk) 16:48, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
• Perhaps a topic ban for one editor or the other is in order instead of, or in addition to, an IBAN; but I've not looked into the dispute properly, so can't tell which is being problematic (if either are) in that regard. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:56, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

All you can see is who throws the first punch, and it's obvious is ChrisGualtieri. This editor never stays directly on topic, he always has to bring up history, and i admitted i hated this editor FOR GOOD REASON because despite his "compliments", they don't come off as real because, not too long after those compliments, he raises strong issue. I'm sick and tired of not being able to prove the comments he does directly because i have had little access to a computer, and takes too long to look for every edit he's done just to show you. But if you look in talk:Dragon Ball, you can see how EASILY irritation gets to him and brings up topics that aren't relevant. and it goes on and on and on. And i'm not the only one who has a problem with him. You can see throughout WP:ANIME how he attacks other editors aswell.Lucia Black (talk) 00:53, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

He helped me get my article to GA status in less that three days, we expanded together and we stayed on topic the entire time, we expanded it and worked night and day pursuing our goal of getting the article to GA hes a productive and efficient editor in my opinion. Prabash.Akmeemana 01:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Prabash, it doesn't matter who he gets along with, if there is anyone out there that he doesn't get along with, it's going to be more valid. When it comes to anime and manga, this editor simply gets too bias. And you're bias yourself, don't you remember how you even got to know him in the first place? It's too bias to mention your personal (yet minor) experience. Right now taking account of the bad is more important than taking account of the "good". He helps who he chooses, and i admit i hate this editor, but i know how to not let it bother me, and this editor continues to throw it in my face. Think he's a productive and efficient editor? No one is denying that, but the ability to take wevery discussion personally? Thats what counts.Lucia Black (talk) 01:11, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

And that's why Lucia Black is a disruptive presence: some unqualified and unproven claim that Chris always starts it, followed by a semi-coherent rant ("it's going to be more valid"? what is?) that typically includes the statement that one way or another diffs cannot be provided. What Chris is supposed to do with wevery discussion (take it personally? or not?) is not clear, though it is pretty clear that the first person to claim Chris is a helpful editor gets his ass chewed out ("and you're bias yourself").

ANI sees this periodically, and I suppose it will continue until someone presses that block button for longer than I did--for disruption and personal attacks and frivolous threads, maybe. Drmies (talk) 04:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the long post, but if you want an understanding of the origin and nature of the entire matter, please read it in full. Our first interactions at Talk:Ghost_in_the_Shell/GA1 is rather indicative of the entire matter you see here today. I took the GAN for Ghost in the Shell because it is something I know extremely well, and I professed my affinity for it. Its philosophy, symbolism and even base details are all critically analyzed by scholars, with essays and sections of books dedicated to it.[88][89] And I know the material extremely well as a result of this interest. Lucia took issue with that knowledge and affection as a claim of “bias” in her second response, ever, to me.[90] She raised the issues with my "bias" at multiple venues at once, [91] and even using (EMERGENCY) in the title at the Wikiproject.[92] A second opinion was made by user Aircorn, who suggested failing the article. Another editor Niemti would later add additional comments for its failure. For more reasons then I care to list, the GA was a complete and utter disgrace which couldn't even get the plot summary right, had vast amounts of incorrect assertions, bad prose, OR and Synthesis and Lucia's axing of good content. Let's be clear; Lucia hates me, as she admits here. The original content dispute is exceedingly simple; but it is hard to improve content when it gets moved, altered and cut down. I can and have proven myself capable of adding detailed production and critical analysis of the material to topics. The most recent is the entire production section at Ghost in the Shell (film).[93] I can do this for each title of the property; but every time I make changes they are “fancruft” or gets deleted including a list of artbooks and official works. I want DRN to handle the content dispute over whether or not the international bestseller mangas warrant their own page, but I think that a one-way interaction ban (Lucia's comments towards me) be considered until she can get over her professed hatred. Over a month ago she professed, “I hate [Chrisgualtieri], and I hate [Chrisgualtieri] with a passion. I see [Chrisgualtieri]'s name on my talkpage and I see red.”[94] (Note: “that editor” is swapped with my name for context here) And given how she feels over a month later, I doubt Lucia will be feeling any more friendly in the foreseeable future. I'm not going to feed her hatred, and I probably shouldn't defend myself so vigerously, but I'm all but compelled to voice my side or be swept up in the drama. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:38, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• I support a topic ban, but honestly more because of how Lucia handles herself in the discussions. Kind of a boomerang if you ask me, but boh editors are more productive when not interacting... Sergecross73 msg me 04:47, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
• Having watched and been involved in a few disputes and discussions with Lucia, I've always had concerns about the tone and attitude (as well as quality of language), and this is yet one more example. See previous discussion, and few sections down in the same archive. It led to a block and a community-suggested break. Chris is not blameless but the issues are evident; I considered the potential for a one-way IBAN but the AN/I discussions I linked to above reassured me that it can only be helpful for Chris also. Obviously support an indefinite interaction ban, and in addition, a narrow topic ban from Ghost in the Shell topics, which seems to be the core of their dispute, as per the concerns raised above by @Drmies:; I worry than any IBAN is doomed to failed if not accompanied by a narrow TBAN of the main dispute. :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 05:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Uh "It led to a block and a community-suggested break." Huh? This never happened to either Lucia or me from any ANI. The "Wikihounding" section was made by a troll who was blocked, I didn't sock and Lucia didn't sock.[95] Other ones popped up like User:Lucia Block and such. Please don't confuse those with us; I've not been blocked and I don't sock. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia should ideally be decided on the merits of arguments and I wanted a process to be followed, but it has not yet been done. Of the 8 other editors who commented on the GITS matter, many shared my views, but they were drowned out in the discussion. I've begged to work together on this; I've begged for assistance with the RFC and DRN... I'm still begging that someone here can sit us down, make a call and we will be bound to accept it, because both of us have agreed to mediation. I'll be indebted to you regardless of the decision you make; I need someone to make the final choice that is not me or Lucia Black on the GITS matter.I'd even propose a single 2k word argument to represent each parties side because debate back and forth is utterly pointless. Barring that, I have planned to do two pages in my sandbox to deal with the topic-level and manga page. It would take me some time, but I will be glad to provide the sandboxes as evidence of my assertions under N, GNG, and SS. Even if the decision will require a GA or FA level article before my page goes live, the mere promise that a professional article can exist after reaching such a point will allow me complete such a mammoth undertaking. Also, given my expressed desire for GA and FA hopes, I'd hate to be punished for striving for accuracy and correctness and completeness of the material. Any editor willing to do this will have my full support and cooperation and deepest thanks. Please do not dismiss this plea; I've tried to make peace with Lucia, three times in fact, even Drmies saw the last of these efforts. I cannot solve this by myself; I desperately need assistance and Lucia too seems to want this resolution. Please help us resolve it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:30, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

List of credentials in psychology article

Can someone check this article? List of credentials in psychology. Unless I'm mistaken, User:Ritten Wright continues to insert and re-insert material into the article which, to me, appears to be unsourced and POV and possibly OR. Maybe I'm mis-reading it. Please advise if anyone has the time to look at it. Thanks in advance. --- Wikiklrsc (talk) 04:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I have removed most of the editor's additions. Most of it was original research and not suitable for inclusion in my opinion. -- Diannaa (talk) 09:50, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 14:48, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi, this is Ritten Wright, I am fairly new to Wikipedia and have much to learn about operating it. I'm not even sure if this comment will be auto date stamped and in addition to already have written my user name, I am going to try the 4 tilde thing for a link signature. Anyway, I must say I am perplexed by referenced to my edits as POV, OR, unsourced, and unencyclopedic. I'm not sure what level of disagreement we have here, but I am citing reliable sources, and in adding conjecture (asserting that something does not exist), I am respectfully inviting others to show otherwise. Regarding my apparent persistence in re-inserting material which is removed, I believe the serial inserter and the serial remover bear some responsibility for one another's editing (equally). It seems we may actually be collaborating, through several partial re-insertions and partial re-removals toward a better page than when I found it. I think I have my user page correctly set up now, so may be contacted directly Ritten Wright (talk) 23:28, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Unhelpful IP editor

For the past week or so, someone on Hanaro Telecom in Seoul (dynamic IP) has been making a series of unnecessary changes ot several articles. In the past 24 hours, he has been edit warring at Super Sentai (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) on the following IP addresses:

• 114.205.127.39 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 114.205.127.230 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 118.216.183.163 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

He has also edited as

• 118.216.183.15 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 118.216.183.20 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 114.205.127.159 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 114.205.127.90 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

He does not seem to know the proper rules and regulations or etiquette of the project and because his IP is dynamic it is hard to prevent abuse from him. As he is now edit warring, this raises other problems. I think we need to block him so we can at least stop further disruption.—Ryulong (琉竜) 12:23, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

After researching the article Zord edit history, I see you have some issues there. You clearly need to read WP:OWNERSHIP. Many details and additions have been attempted by various editors and you have just reverted them all. Perhaps if you supply specific diffs that you are concerned about, other editors can zero in on your problem. This article seems particularly specific in interest to editors of this geographic area and of course they would use similar IPs. I see no abuse or editwarring in this article other than multiple complaints on the talk page regarding yourself since May 2013. 99.251.120.60 (talk) 14:01, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

After further reading of the Zord talk page I have noticed your edits can be very nasty, insulting, and rude to other editors there. I don't know if this is classic behavior on your part in other articles but with 15 seconds of reading your own talk page I found [this] with another editor complaining of the same attitude. I would find it very disturbing to have my length of appearance here used to win a content dispute ridiculing my opinion. How is it related to accuracy? Perhaps a wikiBreak could help somewhat for you to respond in a less aggressive manner in content discussions? 99.251.120.60 (talk) 14:21, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

None of these concerns of yours, all of which have been addressed by now, have anyhing to do with the issue at hand. That diff you attempt to link to I immediately apologized for, and the issues at Talk:Zord have also been addressed as evident from the talk page.

And it is quite obvious that the operators of these IP addresses I listed above are all the same individual. The first three listed all perform the same edit and act as if they are the same person by intending to put the exact same information onto the page.

You seem to be very knowledgeable about Wikipedia considering these two comments here are the only ones that have ever been made from this particular IP address. That in itself seems a little suspicious.—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Legal threats by User:Wordsindustry

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

A newly created user, Wordsindustry (created 07:00, 27 July 2013) has posted strong legal threats on the talk pages of users Brianhe [96] [97] and Unforgettableid [98] [99], and a lenghty list of demands at their own talk page. This appears to be in retaliation for perceived injuries from an earlier AfD debate and a discussion at Talk:Charles_G._Smith. --Drm310 (talk) 15:26, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I had blocked this user indefinitely for unambiguous legal threats before being made aware of this discussion. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:14, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Note, the same threat was also posted to WP:Help desk#Final legal notice by 178.148.150.9 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). That threat has since been redacted, and as a result of that thread content was also redacted from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pegasus Intellectual Capital Solutions as well as from Talk:Charles_G._Smith. I have not blocked the IP at this time, as it appears to be a one-time use and I'm not certain if it's a dynamic or static address. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:08, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repeated hostile, insulting remarks by User:Carolmooredc

In an RfC on Gary North, the above user has maligned me for "want[ing to destroy a living person on Wikipedia" and alleged I am motivated to do this ot "bolster [my] own status among their peers, assuming their peers would take such activities seriously." She provides no evidence for this allegation, and therefore it constitutes WP: Personal attack. When I called her out on this, she attacked me as "hypersensitive"; when another user (a libertarian who strongly opposes my view on the RfC) characterized Carol's ocomment as a personal attack, she erroneously accused him of "harassment"

Since Carol to heed to warnings from her peers, and since I am banned from her talk page due to prior warnings about her PA, I need to ask admin to give her a warning about a conduct and a ban from the North article, where she continues to be disruptive. I am willing and able to detail a truly extravagant and massively extensive history of carol's personal attacks/erroneous allegations against other users if admin deems this context to be helpful. Steeletrap (talk) 19:38, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• First, I did not review who wrote what of the WP:OR under discussion. I made a general statement of frustration about attack BLPs. [Added later actual quote this diff: However much an editor may want to destroy a living person using Wikipedia, and thus bolster their own status among their peers, assuming their peers would take such activities seriously, they still must follow Wikipedia rules to do it and using primary source out of context WP:OR is against the rules.] I specifically told User: Steeletrap in response to his complaint - at this diff: "Such hypersensitivity. Obviously you have never edited dozens of BLPs on Jewish critics of Israel like I have or you would know of what I speak." I struck "hypersensitive". Suggestions on more Wikietiquette compliant phrase to explain my frustration over a false allegation welcome. [Added clarification: False allegation being that I specifically was talking about Steeletrap; I have not seen diff of who put in the info.]
• Second, I asked another user a few weeks back not to contact me on my talk page except with official notices. He forgot and I just wanted to remind him how I felt. He thanked me for reminding him. It's really none of User:Steeletrap's business.
• User:Steeletrap seems to have forgotten I had to do a WP:ANI a couple months back to get others to help stop him from posting questionable comments on my talk page. (Official notices being explicitly exempted, of course.) User:Carolmooredc 20:15, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Carol, your comment at the RfC about "destroying" was, if not a personal attack directed at a particular editor, inappropriate in any context and certainly inappropriate in an RfC. I suggest you be more careful in the future and limit your comments to content and issues and not attacks on editors, whoever they are.
• Steeletrap, why are you posting this sort of notice of the RfC? Not very neutral, is it?--Bbb23 (talk) 20:24, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Not at all unneutral; I completely reject that insinuation. I was simply describing the disputed material related to North views, which is in and of itself inflammatory, and how it relates to the noticeboard in question. I did something similar at the Calvinist noticeboard: describing the RfC and how it relates to Calvinism. These posts were accurately describing an inherently inflammatory subject, but were prescriptive or putting any sort of spin on the situation. Steeletrap (talk) 21:16, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Heh, I'd hardly call it an "insinuation". If you prefer to be obtuse over this, it will only lead to trouble.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:39, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Mea culpa. Best to stay away from BLPs until whatever doesn't tick me off so much. Or I see enough editors supportive of BLP policy working on an article, so I can relax and not blow my cool. User:Carolmooredc 20:29, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Proposed resolution Since Carol has apologized for her conduct, and (to my eye) indicated she will steer clear of the article in question, I support ending this matter without sanction provided she 1) confirms my impression regarding her intention to stay away from Gary North, where her disruptive behavior has occurred and 2) crosses out her insulting, hostile remarks on the Gary North RfC. Steeletrap (talk) 22:57, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I think removing the offending two word phrase was sufficient. Though I do think it was a false exaggeration and I probably should just have said so. Will control self and not add it now. I don't think it's a good precedent to let minor complaints be used to chase an editor off a BLP where there are issues. Plus I did put the RfC on a couple Wikiprojects much more relevant than others posted to and am curious to see if there is a response. Plus I am curious to see if the BLP subject is that bad why certain libertarians put up with him. Is there some explanatory text somewhere that's WP:RS? I found a few interesting things, mostly WP:OR (like the WP:OR cherry picked quotes in contention) and others not quite WP:RS. My female curiosity so often gets me in trouble... User:Carolmooredc 23:33, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I will withdraw my suggestion and suggest a ban on Carol's participation in Gary North, since she refuses to cross out her speculative, bad-faith assuming, PA assertion that I am out to "destroy" and libel North to promote myself on Wikipedia, rather than out to contribute to this encyclopedia. (She incorrectly thinks only the "hypersensitive" slight was a violation of policy.) Given Carol's extensive history of PAs on me, and her repeated refusal (despite prompting from peers and an admin) to acknowledge her editing is disruptive and to change that editing, I think banning her from editing North is necessary. Steeletrap (talk) 00:25, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Steeletrap, just so you know, any admin can block Carol if they believe it's warranted. However, a ban requires a thorough discussion and a consensus; it's not something an admin can do unilaterally except in circumstances not present here. I would discourage you from pursuing such a ban because I don't believe there is enough to support it, but I also wanted to point out the procedural hurdles.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:35, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Again, as I clarified above I was not writing specifically about Steeletrap when I wrote at this diff: However much an editor may want to destroy a living person using Wikipedia, and thus bolster their own status among their peers, assuming their peers would take such activities seriously, they still must follow Wikipedia rules to do it and using primary source out of context WP:OR is against the rules.

Again I still haven't seen the diff of who put the material in. However, given the tadoo, I can see as a general statement it was not a good one and will strike it, especially since Steeltrap takes it so personally. As frustrated as I may be when I visit various BLPs, I have to stop taking BLP rules so seriously and editorializing about generalized people breaking them! User:Carolmooredc 01:02, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Given your "mea culpa" and acknowledgement of error, I have no further concern on this matter. I remain very concerned with your general pattern of personal attacks, to which my (literally) dozens of (saved) diffs attest. I recommend that you resolve to focus on content, not contributors, if you wish to avoid other ANIs in the future. Steeletrap (talk) 01:28, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Not commenting at all on Carolmooredc or Steeletrap, but when I look at Gary North (economist) I see a BLP nightmare. Negative claims sourced only to broken links, opinions from ideological enemies presented as unattributed facts, personal interpretations of primary sources, you name it. Zero^talk 05:22, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing. I'm no big fan of the guy, but I just hate such untidy nightmares of wikipedia articles that are ripe for use (or being used) in Guilt by Association references in other BLPs! User:Carolmooredc 05:28, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Please don't make Off-topic remarks on this thread. There is an RfC where you can share your (distinctly minority) opinion as to "BLP" concerns. Steeletrap (talk) 05:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Situation on Multi-factor authentication

There has been continual disputes over content on Multi-factor authentication (and other articles) about reference to an authentication technique known as "Virtual token"; in the past, this content had been added with specific references to a vendor known as Sestus and with trademark symbols. But this time, it does not contain those specific references, yet points to references that do not match up with the actual content described.

Nonetheless, an IP editor continually in a range of 70.xxx.xx.xx (several different IP's in this range have spammed security-related articles with promotion of Virtual token, and even successfully snagged a potential client on another site through its promotion on Wikipedia, leading me to believe that they work for the vendor), reverts these additions with a warning telling editors not to remove it, and attacks any editor who removes the content (WP:OWN). I have requested semi-protection, but I think we may need further action. ViperSnake151  Talk  19:43, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The above editor ViperSnake151 incorrectly believes that the phrase "virtual token" refers to some specific vendor or product. It does not. it refers to a TYPE of authentication, just as "software token" and "hardware token" refer to other TYPES of multi-factor authentication. I have no idea why the above ViperSnake151 editor feels compelled to censor information about "virtual" forms of MFA. A simple search on Google.com turned up the fact that numerous companies currently offer "virtual" forms of MFA including MobilePass, DNABolt, RSA, Sestus, Safenet, Google, Cisco, Microsoft, Charismathics, eTrade, IBM, etc. The list goes on and on. The section in question on the page does not name, nor identify ANY vendor. I have posted queries on the above editor's talk page, asking them to explain their objections to the inclusion of this type of MFA on this page, but they have simply erased my query from their talk page. See: # http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AViperSnake151&diff=566108814&oldid=566037281

MesaBoy77 (talk) 05:26, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: a thread concerning this has been started at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#Repeated erasure of pertinent page content by 2 specific editors. Page: Multifactor Authentication. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:20, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Ancientsteppe

Ancientsteppe (talk · contribs) is falsifying and/or deleting sources in the article Barlas while inserting unsourced POV. I have told him to stop, but all he does is ignoring it or blanking his talk page. It is clear that he is a "man on a mission" with an ethnocentric (in this case Mongol-centric) agenda. Admin action is required! --Lysozym (talk) 20:37, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Note - Ancientsteppe was not notified of this discussion, so I posted the standard notice on his/her talk page. I am otherwise not involved in this issue. -- Taroaldo ✉ 21:07, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Legal threat?

"Because of this website(s) widespread use by million of people I may refer this information to the FBI in regard to how their information is being used to mislead people". Talk:Homosexuality#Violence against Gays and Lesbians from User: Ranleewright.--Amadscientist (talk) 21:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

What do you expect a person interested in truth to do, the edits to entry and its subsections of this page are going further away from the truth everyday, it is misleading the public who use Wikipedia, a public who feels it is a unbiased resource? I have not as yet went to the step of sending copies of the information to the FBI or other outside organizations, that is why I said I may refer. Are you so determined to mislead and be biased that you would have me blocked or removed from Wikipedia? This further proves you want no criticism of your edits on this resource, your not interested in improving your wording in regard to the references, this is a very sad outcome for Wikipedia as far as use and being unbiased. Ranleewright (talk) 22:43, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

These are valid concerns / issues I wish to draw and direct attention to, misleading or information skirting falsehood should not be allowed to remain on Wikipedia if you want it to be regarded as well regarded resource for the public in general as an encyclopedia and such. Now if you have no concern in regard to the information being unbiased and non-misleading then go for it but put a disclaimer on each page to show that is the fact of the matter. Ranleewright (talk) 22:56, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• The statement by Ranleewright is not a legal threat. The material is apparently sourced to an FBI report, and the user is saying that they would report that the report is being miscited. That said, the comments by Ranleewright strike me as, at best, unhelpful.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:58, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• This is a simple content dispute. But accusing other editors of misleading the public is uncivil behaviour and it will not contribute to the resolution of any outstanding issues. -- Taroaldo ✉ 23:00, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• I think is more than a content dispute. The editor appears to have an agenda.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:06, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

If Ranleewright was truly interested in improving wording in regard to references, one might expect that as a first step, they may have responded or passed some comment on the 3 suggestions I made on the article talk page in which I indeed attempted to improve the wording. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:09, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Agreed, Bbb23. Only meant insofar as the ANI report goes, there does not appear to be a legal threat. The problem remains with the content...and certain conduct. Taroaldo ✉ 23:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I respect Bbb23's opinion on this. I feel that the wording when looked at with the previous comment: "I hold forth no hope that this will be corrected or mitigated because this seems to be Wikipedia's purpose to spread biased and misleading material to the general public, even allowing pornographic material displaying sexual themes, relations and organs to underage children without restriction, this is illegal in every other form of media." makes it appear that the intent is a legal matter of finding Wikipedia liable for its content and an accusation of a misuse of an Official US Government agency. This seems a borderline legal threat and could be interpreted to mean that they intend to seek legal action. I feel the issue can be left as is, unless the editor continues to make threats of off Wiki action.--Amadscientist (talk) 23:19, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

This, as quoted by the OP here, does indeed qualify as a legal threat: "You better fix this, or I'm calling the FBI." The rest of his posts are loaded with accusations of the "conspiracy theory" type. Certainly that SPA has an agenda, though it's not clear just what that agenda is. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:28, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

That was my basic, original thought.--Amadscientist (talk) 23:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

• Note - This is why it is helpful to add all the relevant diffs at the beginning of the discussion. Still, "calling the FBI" does not constitute a threat of litigation. WP:LEGAL -- Taroaldo ✉ 00:09, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
  • It does constitute a "Perceived legal threat". The language was meant to create a chill effect and stop editing and intimidate editors. I'm back to calling this enough of a legal threat that intervention may be needed for prevention as the editor is making it clear they intend some action.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:21, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
    • That point seems to come up here from time to time. It's not the specific nature of the threat that forbids it - it's the attempt to intimidate editors. That's why threatening to call the FBI is every bit as much a "legal threat" as threatening to call Dewey, Cheatham and Howe. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

The statement is, indeed, intended to chill the discussion and to get their way in the argument. As such, I believe it is a clear legal threat, in violation of WP:NLT (✉→BWilkins←✎) 00:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

While our interpretations of WP:LEGAL may differ slightly, I concur that contributions in the talk page appear to be an attempt to intimidate or bully other editors. I think most of us can probably agree that some kind of action would be appropriate in this case. Taroaldo ✉ 01:01, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

FWIW I'm with Bbb here. I normally consider 'I will report you to some LEO' claims as in NLT territory since they have the same chilling effect but in this case as the comment appears to be 'I will report you to some LEO because it's their source you're misusing' not 'I will report you to some LEO for criminal investigation', I don't think this is auite in NLT territory. That said, I would discourage further comments of this nature as it does risk having the same chilling effect because we are ultimately talking about a LEO and it's unlikely to help matters. Nil Einne (talk) 03:44, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

No, exactly what they are saying is: "Submit to my moral judgment that this article violates pornography laws by depicting relations between same sex couples or I will contact the FBI to begin a legal battle to make Wikipedia liable for the content. THAT is what they are saying.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:20, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Truth painful and is intimidating and bullying, hmmmm that sounds unreasonable to me. You can not get consensus when individuals for what ever reason choose not look at the independent facts of a matter. Just the same who ever has the power to stifle freedom of speech exercise it, the power always makes right I guess. Ranleewright (talk) 04:01, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Here look at the conversation more closely: Violence against Gays and Lesbians[edit] Ranleewright (talk) 04:06, 28 July 2013 (UTC) (Copyright/Attribution violation removed)--Amadscientist (talk) 04:15, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Two things you should read: WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, Wikipedia:Free speech. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Make that three because they need to read our terms of use it seems as well.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

What gives? Copyright/attribution violation when it was a group of posts between me and several other editors, how could that be so, are you making up rules as you go? What are you doing deleting my posts, is that not a violation of freedom of speech? Are you disrespecting me because I'm new to this forum or are you bulling me? Ranleewright (talk) 04:53, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

WE can violate your 'free speech' all we like here. Or rather, you don't have any right to 'free speech' on Wikipedia, any more than anyone else does - see Wikipedia:Free speech. As for removing the huge chunk of text you copy-pasted here, whether it was a copyright violation to do so or not (it might be, due to lack of proper attribution, but I'm no lawyer..), it shouldn't have been pasted anyway. Either post a link, or at least tell us where it is - filling the page with walls of copy-pasted text is disruptive and unnecessary. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:58, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)You may post only your own text without the need to attribute others. However, if you copy text from one place to another within Wikipedia that belongs to other contributors you are required to give attribution to all those who's work you copy. See Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. But, the original post I made already has a link to the discussion so copy pasting that entire chunk was very disruptive.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:02, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

So your saying it is a copyright violation to copy or link information in any form from one place to another in the entries or in the talk forums unless it is you. If it is not you then it is disruptive, in violation and unnecessary. No one has any right to free speech on here but you, you can move, delete, rewrite, block, ever what you want to do, you have the freedom to do that but no one else does. You don't want anyone to see what has really been posted so you obscure it or delete it. Sounds strongly of communism in some form to me. Ranleewright (talk) 05:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I wonder what the founder of Wikipedia would think about a statement like that? Ranleewright (talk) 05:20, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

This is not to say that the Wikimedia Foundation intends to extensively exercise that legal right, if it can be avoided. Wikipedia welcomes all constructive contributors, and is dedicated to assuming good faith with those here to contribute constructively and assist in helping expand access to the sum of human knowledge. I have given constructive cpmtrobitions and have done all in good faith to assist in helping expand human knowledge, but have been blocked, ridiculed to an extent and bullied. The information I put forth was from the FBI website that contains the reports that were used. Also the edits I made were from the same source word for word in some cases to clarify the information being used in the entry, but no that was not good enough. Ranleewright (talk) 05:30, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I fail to see how someone threatening to call the FBI in can fairly accuse others of 'bullying'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

--Amadscientist AndyTheGrump Is abusing their powers as administrators on Wikipedia, I have given constructive contributions and have done all in good faith to assist in helping expand human knowledge, but have been blocked, ridiculed to an extent and bullied when all I have done is put forth factual information from the same sources / reports as in some of the entries on Wikipedia. In this way they are causing the information in these entries to misrepresent the statistics, percentages and facts put forth in these reports. This seems to be contrary to what Wikipedia should represent. Ranleewright (talk) 05:51, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it. Does this not include administrators??? Ranleewright (talk) 05:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not an administrator. I never claimed to be one. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:05, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Then who is acting like one and deleting some of the stuff I put up? Who says they are going to block me on here? Ranleewright (talk) 06:23, 28 July 2013 (UTC) Also why are you AndyTheGrump changing my edits on entries when I put up the sources for those edits? Ranleewright (talk) 06:26, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

"why are you AndyTheGrump changing my edits on entries when I put up the sources for those edits"? What exactly are you referring to? AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:38, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Before you do anything else, you need to remove and disavow your threat to contact the FBI, or you will be blocked from editing here - guaranteed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:35, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

So now we go past bullying and have the threats, I have used Wikipedia as a resource since 2007 and I get threats for my loyalty. Like I posted before, who ever has the power to stifle freedom of speech exercise it, the power always makes right I guess, your doing the same thing you say your fighting against. Ranleewright (talk) 06:54, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

The threats came from you. Withdraw them. Or expect to be prevented from making further threats. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:02, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Go ahead, I don't make threats. Ranleewright (talk) 07:13, 28 July 2013 (UTC) Well? Ranleewright (talk) 07:36, 28 July 2013 (UTC) Come on abuse me AndyTheGrump, come on ol powerful one??? Whats going on nothing is happening? Ranleewright (talk) 07:39, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Enough of this unproductive WP:TE nonsense. Issue a block and be done with it. Taroaldo ✉ 08:04, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes issue a block don't even consider the truth, facts and be done with it, break all the grand words of Wikipedia,Wikipedia content is intended to be factual, notable, verifiable with cited external sources, and neutrally presented, the roots on what it is based, show your true colors, prove what you are. Ranleewright (talk) 08:10, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

See  • above. Taroaldo ✉ 08:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Something isn't right here. I think it's true to say that in the thread on the article talk page, I was the only editor who attempted (repeatedly) to incorporate and address Ranleewright's concerns, yet it seemed to be me who Ranleewright chose to ignore. Ranleewright recently edited the article (see here) to include a note which clarified the FBI's definition of a victim, then afterwards on the talk page stated that "the edit I made to the entry clears up the meaning of the percentages referenced in the FBI report" (see here). Yet the day before on the talk page I had explicitly suggested doing exactly the same thing (see here) - note my sentence "Maybe a footnote could also be added after the use of "victims", explaining the FBI definition of that term" - but Ranleewright's reaction was to completely ignore me and instead get on a soapbox (see here). Maybe this was pure oversight, but a similar thing has happened on this page; if people look higher up, they can see I again referred to the 3 suggestions I had made to change the wording in the article. Does Ranleewright state that they hadn't seen those, and ask me to highlight them? No, I am completely ignored again, whereas Ranleewright proves quite capable of responding to other editors. I think that sometimes, for whatever reason, some people just like fighting. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:23, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• As far as the legal threat is concerned, I was not at first convinced as the threat was not credible. However, I find the argument that the editor's intent was to browbeat other editors compelling, and agree that WP:NLT was violated, in spite of the fact that the threat was not credible.

Furthermore, we have a major problem with WP:COMPETENCE here. The editor clearly has fundamental misconceptions about what WP is and how it works. While that is to be expected with a new account, it does not seem that the editor is amenable to improving their competence and constructively edit in a collaborative framework, based on their tendentious comments on the article talk pages and in this discussion. Mentoring and friendly advice are unlikely to be of any avail, as the editor's comments strongly indicate that he is WP:NOTHERE. Because it is reasonable to assume that disruptive and tendentious behavior will continue, an indefinite block would be the best option at this time. If, in the future, the editor can convince an adminitrator that they understand what WP is and how it works, and that they intend to edit productively and collaboratively in compliance with WP policies and guidelines, the account could be unblocked. Until then, this editor is "not ready for prime time". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 08:29, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Use of talk page while blocked

86.19.115.227 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has made disruptive and offensive use of the block page with the unblock requests they've posted, see page history. Would an admin please remove talk page access. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Done. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 06:18, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Done. Multiple blocks, multiple abuse of talk page use, enough is enough Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not that long before the block expires. I think I'll warn the editor that an indef is likely to follow if behaviour doesn't improve Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:22, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Problematic editing by TomPointTwo

I know about all the civility enforcement difficulties etc. and for sure I have no intention to stir up any unnecessary drama but I started a modest thread at Talk:Steve King warning editors there about breaching 3RR during a recent spate of edit-warring. The thread is not long and anyone interested can read it to get the full picture. To cut the story short, I cautioned TomPointTwo about making unhelpful remarks which could provoke another user and I got this response: I found them to be helpful as a motherfucker. TomPointTwo (talk) 07:47, 28 July 2013 (UTC) with an edit-summary feels good man. I reverted per WP:NOTFORUM but TomPointTwo keeps edit-warring his reply into the talkpage, escalating with attacking edit-summaries such as: (Censorship! Fascism! Your subjective deletion of my contribution will not stand! My critical evaluations of previous material is not in violation of WP:TPNO. Read it, son.). I don't find this acceptable. I ask that an admin reduct that reply and take any further action as they deem appropriate. In addition TomPointTwo used edit-summaries like (Undid revision 566113825 by MilesMoney (talk) Actually now that you're up against 3RR you can eat it.) trying to bait his opponent during the edit-war at Steve King in which he arrived at 3RR himself but did not seem to recognise it as shown from this discussion at RFPP: [100] and this response at 3RRN: [101]. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 08:43, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I found my previous talk page comments to be helpful. Helpful as a motherfucker, in fact. My expression of 3RR angst (actually 5RR by that point) was succinct and honest. Suckhonest, maybe. Context can be found at the Steve King Talk page, the 3RR noticeboard and the additional entry Dr K made to the edit war noticeboard. Aside from that I don't have a ton to add. I do so hope my contributions are not interpreted as anything less than "professional" or of the super serious business required of participants here. TomPointTwo (talk) 08:49, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• He has now resorted to personal attacks against me at 3RRN: [102]. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 09:10, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm confused. Are you crying about my conjecture that you feel dumb? TomPointTwo (talk) 09:13, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Carrying on the battle here is not wise. I suggest you stop. Taroaldo ✉ 09:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The formatting here is a mess, and not of your doing. Whom are you addressing? TomPointTwo (talk) 09:22, 28 July 2013 (UTC)