Talk:Land speed record

A More Complete Table

Found a more complete table of land speed records. If no one has any objections I'm adding the entries that our version is missing.2001:56A:7573:7A00:8090:1707:4557:68DD (talk) 20:34, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Campbell

Since the Admins here don't give a damn, & since the Campbell partisans continue to insist a record that was lower than the one previously set, a circumstance that doesn't apply to any other effort on this page, I will make one more appeal for rationality, since this isn't 1963. Then I will tell the Campbell partisans, every one, they can go to hell. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 17:17, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

That's very sweet and balanced of you, Trekphiler. But here's the deal. This is a list of land speed records. On the 17th July 1964, Campbell set a record. It is the case that another person had gone faster before Campbell; but as at 17th July 1964 that person's effort had been disallowed. Later, the rules were changed and that person's effort was ratified. It should not be a great bone of contention to list Capmbell's record in the table, with a note pointing to the unusual circumstances which meant that Campbell's record stood only until the prior effort had been ratified, and ergo thereafter did not stand. What is not acceptable is a) to pretend that Campbell's record was not awarded b) to remove Campbell from the table - since this, rather than the narrative, is where people will look for this stuff and c) to get so hot & bothered about the righteousness of your self-sanctified position that you start telling people who disagree with you to go to hell. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:37, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

And - not to put to fine a point on it - you are /still/ in breach of 3RR. The rules there are very clear. The rules apply to you. Please do what the rules say. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:38, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

@Phx138: Campbell is not "so special'. It's simply that for a period - until the ratification of Breedlove's record - his July 17th run was considered record breaking. Would you perhaps do us the courtesy of discussing this here please. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:22, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

This has been a settled issue more than 40 years. Breedlove's record is universally accepted as standing. The only people trying to rewrite history are you, Andy, and User:Grubcrawl, both here & here, & with the same rationale: the claim Campbell held the absolute record. It may have been in dispute in 1963. It isn't now. It hasn't been for more than 40yr. Campbell's is the only one you defend for inclusion after it has been exceeded by somebody else. Not Goldenrod, I notice, just Campbell. That's irrational & partisan; removing Campbell might be justified for violating NPOV, if keeping it in wasn't just plain stupidity. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 22:33, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

This article lists land speed records. There was a brief period in which Campbell held that record as a result of July 17. We should record that. Nobody is disputing Breedlove's record. Nobody is disputing that his record predates Campbell's run. Nothing in this is a threat to Breedlove's legacy. It's merely a question of how we represent the history of the land speed record. What seems to me to be irrational is a) your so strong desire to expunge Campbell from the record and b) the verging on unhinged passion of your argumentation. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:39, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

• The definition of a "record" hinges on it being recognised by the awarding body. Not how fast it was, not if anyone else had gone faster beforehand, but on what the relevant authority decrees is the record. Now for Campbell and the LSR, we have the following axioms:

• The relevant body is the FIA. Not Trekphiler, not me, not WP, but the FIA
• The FIA awarded the record to Campbell. This is widely reported and is unchallengeable.
• There are subtle reasons as to why Breedlove wasn't recognised earlier. But that's the FIA's business, and they didn't.
• If we cover both in the article (and I've no objection) we would need to make the distinction clear.

You keep removing Campbell. But it's unclear (per the points above), just which reason you object to.

There are two comments on this page that I would take issue with:

• "until the ratification of Breedlove's record " I don't know of Breedlove's 1963 (the tricycle SoA) ever being ratified.
• " Breedlove's record is universally accepted as standing." Which car? If you mean SoA , then I don't see this as "standing" (at least not for the FIA rules). It wasn't accepted at the time (not enough wheels, so it counted as a tricycle motorbike, not a car) and it wasn't retrospectively accepted. The rules were changed, and a re-run of it today would be a valid run, but I know of no source for this having ever been applied retrospectively to the 1963 run.

Campbell's record was superseded, but by later runs, not the 1963 run. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:54, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

♠I keep removing Campbell from the table for a simple reason: the record was exceeded before he ever made the attempt. You've been making a false argument that the date of ratification matters. It doesn't. FIA, however belatedly, did ratify Breedlove's, & that makes Campbell moot, because Breedlove did it first, and his speed was greater. Get over it.

♠You'll notice, I have no objection to mentioning Campbell, but somebody seems intent on objecting to not having Campbell in the table, despite it making his attempt the only one that's lower than a previously-set record. Tell me how that is a rational outcome.

♠"Campbell's record was superseded, but by later runs" August 5, 1963, Breedlove set the record. When it was ratified, & by whom, is irrelevant, & that's before Campbell ever ran. Get over it.

♠You're right on one point. It's about what the sources say, & I don't know of a single one, today, that credits Campbell as taking the record after Breedlove's effort. Not a single one. It's not 1963 any more. Stop trying to rewrite history. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 23:16 & 23:21, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Holthusen (1986). Which seems to be accepted as the canon book for this page. Or Pearson's Bluebird and the Dead Lake for a contemporary one. I'd say the FIA themselves, but their website is horrendous to navigate.

So you claim that the FIA didn't award the record to Campbell in 1964? And you claim that they did award a record to Breedlove, for his 1963 run? Presumably not in 1963, so when did they do this? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:·30→, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

♠I claim it's not 1964 now. Since I don't have Holthusen or Pearson in front of me, I can't comment on what they actually do say: that Campbell made the effort, or that it is officially credited now (not in 1963--now)? You keep harping on the timing of the approval like it matters; it doesn't.

♠You also haven't explained how a lower speed is a new record, no matter when credit was given, or by whom. Every other single record on the page is higher than the one before--except your pet's. Explain to me how that makes sense. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 01:53, 18 June 2019 (UTC)