Wikipedia talk:Banning policy

Question regarding BANEX?

If reverts of obvious vandalism are allowed, are reverts of edits that were themselves made in violation of a ban, block, or both, permissible? Or do admins have the discretion to block for such edits? (To clarify, this is not related to a TBAN; it's related to something that happened some time ago in relation to an IBAN. IBANs tending to be mutual means that this is pretty common.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:44, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

No. Obvious vandalism is clearly incorrect, and you reverting it is clearly correct; a ban violation is not likely to be any more incorrect than you (being banned there yourself) reverting it. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:45, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

@Od Mishehu: Sorry to be late, but I didn't have this page on my watchlist until just now (for whatever reason) and, well, you were later. :P (The emoticon is meant to mean that I am just kidding rather than criticizing you, obviously. Although actually if I cam along in May and saw that you had responded to me in December, I probably wouldn't reply, so your having responded in March is actually somewhatrelevant.)

So, obviously per BANEX I would be allowed report said violation on an admin's talk page or on ANI. But would adding to the request for enforcement a request that the edit be reverted be out-of-line?

I mean, there is a clear distinction between Please block this user for violating their IBAN. and Please block this user for violating their IBAN. Also, I think said user is a bad person for [such-and-such reason].... But which side of that line does Please block this user for violating their IBAN. Also, please revert the offending edit [which, regardless of the IBAN, may or may not be a good edit on its own merits, but I just don't like it, and I'm not going to elaborate for you].? I would personally be inclined to think Please block this user for violating their IBAN. Also, please revert the offending edit, which I believe is a bad edit on its own merits for [such-and-such reason]. is a really grey area. I told an editor off a little while ago for making a post on ANI that, as far as the admin action it was basically asking for, was covered under BANEX, but included an excessive amount of elaboration that I felt clearly was not, but...

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:27, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Personally, I would think that explicitly asking for an edit reverted is disallowed if you wouldn't be allowed to do iut yourself. Simply notfy about the violation and allow uninvolved admins to handle it. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:16, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Banex question

What would be the appropriate route for an editor to take if they believed a ban was being mis-used against them? Could bringing up such a complaint to ANI or AE or ARCA be considered necessary dispute resolution regarding a ban? --Kyohyi (talk) 17:04, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I can not answer all aspects of your question, but one part seems to be clear because of my very recent experience. If you receive an arbcom-imposed topic ban and you believe this is being misused against you by another editor, do NOT take this to AE. If you mention your topic ban there, you may be blocked.[1] DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:34, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

That...unique perspective aside, I believe WP:ARCA would be the appropriate forum if the ban is based on an arbcom decision, which I'm assuming it is based on what I see on your talk page. You may also want to consider contacting the committee by email. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:42, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

@Beeblebrox, thanks for the advice - I have already contacted ARBCOM by email, but I have not yet received a reply. DrChrissy ^(talk) 19:13, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Could I extrapolate your opinion to mean that the venue in which the ban was applied? So a community ban would be ANI, a AE invoked ban could go to AE, and an ARBCOM one would have to go to ARCA? --Kyohyi (talk) 19:01, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Another BANEX question (sorry!)

Actually it's not another one. It's the same one I asked earlier, but the timing was bad and I was told to come back once the dust had settled. It's been a few weeks, so here I am. Something like this has actually come up a few times, so I'm not specifically referring to any one incident, but asking it when it was relevant was apparently not the best move.

Anyway:

If I am subject to an IBAN with another user, and the other user violates the ban, BANEX allows for me to report them to an admin myself. However, what about if the other user violates the ban, and before I can report it a third party independently reports them on ANI? If I post to the ANI discussion, would it be a violation? (This assumes that the mere fact of my knowing there is an ANI thread is not in itself a violation. There are a bunch of ways I might be made aware of it, but in the most recent instance a notice was left on the forum where the first violation took place. Obviously if I had the other user's talk page on my watchlist, that would be another matter.)

Assuming the answer to the above is "Yes", then what about if someone in the ANI thread pinged me and requested my input? I've been pinged in a bunch of ANI threads that I knew better than to comment on, but those were where someone I was IBANned with was being reported for something other than an IBAN-violation.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:06, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

The scenario is that two users, A and B, are subject to an interaction ban, and A is reported (say at ANI) for a possible breach of the iban. The question is, can B add evidence or respond to pings from the report. Answer: no. There is an interaction ban because the community is tired of drama between A and B, regardless of who is right or who started it. The assumption is that independent people assessing a report are clever enough to work out if a violation has occurred. On the other hand, if the violation involved some subtle dig that cannot be readily interpreted by other people, it might be ok to email an admin with no personal involvement (not a wikifriend) and explain the situation for them to take action as they think, or ask at the banning admin's talk whether it would be ok to add a clarifying statement at the report to show how it is a violation. The last point should be done rarely and only after there is some indication that it might be needed. Johnuniq (talk) 06:25, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

The purpose of the exception is, in this case, to be sure that violations are likely to be noticed by admins. Once an incident has been reported, you no longer would serve this purpose by participating in the thread where the report was made. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:37, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

One-way IBAN

Just a hypothetical situation, because I'm not interaction-banned, I don't expect to be, and I've not seen this situation arising at all.

A is one-way banned from B. Some time later, A starts an ordinary discussion somewhere, and after a while B comes along and joins the discussion in a non-problematic way, e.g. A created an AFD on WP:N grounds and B says "Keep, because I found sources X, Y, and Z". Do we say that A is allowed to respond in a normal way (e.g. "Actually, I don't think X or Z should count, because they aren't reliable sources..."), because B's joining in the discussion initiated contact, or do we say that A's response would be a ban violation? Or what if B sent a message directly to A, e.g. "Hello, since you've edited in topic area X in the past, I thought you might like to see this new group of articles", or B makes a discussion comment (not ban-related) mentioning A, e.g. "I don't know much about this subject. Maybe A could help?". Is A allowed to respond in those situations, or would these still be ban violations? Final note — of course such situations could be seen as taunting/stalking/etc.; I'm envisioning a situation where nobody, even A, would complain that B had done something wrong.

Surely we've had some situations where the person protected by the ban contacted the banned person and the banned person responded; if "yes this is a ban violation" or "no this isn't a ban violation" has normally been the result, I suggest that the policy be expanded by saying that this kind of contact is, or isn't (whichever's been the normal result), a violation. Nyttend (talk) 22:30, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

In your scenario, B is being a jerk. In the rare instance where a one-way iban is issued, it is pretty ugh always the case that the protected party does not want any contact with them and has had to ask for an iban to make that happen. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:30, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

That, or really forgetful. Either way, the situation indeed is gameable (why I'm not a fan of one-way ibans, why I don't remember ever supporting one), and if A remembers the ban and keeps calm, he's going to start wondering if he's allowed to do/say anything. We ought to have something here saying "if B initiates, A may respond" or "A can't respond if B initiates, but if he thinks B's harassing, BANEX permits an ANI request [or something else in this vein]" — we ought to address this subject so A doesn't wonder. Nyttend (talk) 00:21, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

A should certainly be allowed to respond to incoming interactions; B is taking the chance of such interactions when (s)he interacts with A. Such an interaction ban should mean that any interactioj of B with A is "at his/her own risk". עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:43, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Proposed clarifying change here and to blocking policy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Following on an admin's unblock of an editor who was blocked per a community consensus, a discussion was opened at AN here, which led a discussion at Village Pump Proposals here, the outcome of which are proposals to clarify this policy and the blocking policy. This event brought to light that the written policies have fallen out of sync with community practice and should be clarified. It is a fact that the community sometimes arrives at a consensus that someone should be indefinitely blocked, and this has been going on for years (see several examples at the Village Pump discussion).

Proposed changes to WP:CBAN

The community may reach a consensus to impose various types of sanctions on editors:

• If an editor has proven to be repeatedly disruptive in one or more areas of Wikipedia, the community may engage in a discussion to impose a site ban, topic ban, or place an interaction ban, site ban or other editing restriction (which may include a time-limited or indefinite block) via a consensus of editors who are not involved in the underlying dispute. When determining consensus, the closing administrator will assess the strength and quality of the arguments made.
• In some cases the community may have discussed an indefinite block review a block or an editor's unblock request and reach a consensus of uninvolved editors to endorse the block as a community sanction. (NB, break added for third bullet)
• Editors who are or remain indefinitely blocked after due consideration by the community are considered "banned by the Wikipedia community".

Community sanctions may be discussed on the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard (preferred) or on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Discussions may be organized via a template to distinguish comments by involved and uninvolved editors, and to allow the subject editor to post a response. Sanction discussions are normally kept open for at least 24 hours to allow time for comments from a broad selection of community members. If the discussion appears to have reached a consensus for a particular sanction, an uninvolved administrator notifies the subject accordingly and enacts any blocks called for. The discussion is then closed, and the sanction should be logged at the appropriate venue if necessary, usually Wikipedia:Editing restrictions or Wikipedia:Long-term abuse. If a block is administered or confirmed or an unblock request is denied following community consensus, the editor's block log should note this.

Editors without usernames may be banned by the community (example), but bans of editors using only IP addresses are rare.

Proposed change to Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Unblocking

Unblocking will almost never be acceptable:

• When it would constitute wheel warring.
• To unblock one's own account (unless an administrator blocked themselves).
• When the block is implementing a community sanction which has not been successfully appealed.
• When the block is explicitly enforcing an active Arbitration remedy and there is no ArbCom authorization or "a clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors at a community discussion noticeboard (such as WP:AN or WP:ANI)" (Arbcom motion).

Each of these may lead to sanctions for misuse of administrative tools—possibly including desysopping—even for first-time incidents.

This ~should~ be fairly uncontroversial, since it just brings the written policy up to date with actual community practice, but if an RfC becomes necessary, so be it. Very open to wordsmithing, but let's not have the perfect be the enemy of the good-enough. Jytdog (talk) 17:44, 7 May 2017 (UTC) (Note, sentence about block log added per discussion below. Jytdog (talk) 13:06, 10 May 2017 (UTC))

Last bullet should be something like "there is neither ArbCom authorization nor". We have "A and B or C"; it's meant to be "A and (B or C)", but someone might read it as "(A and B) or C", i.e. "when the ban...and there is no Arbcom authorization, or when there's a clear, substantial...". Or perhaps I've misread it, and it really is meant to be that way, in which case "neither" and "nor" need to be thrown in the other way. Nyttend (talk) 02:37, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

And also, I support this proposal. (1) It's clean and simple, just fitting community-imposed blocks into the existing setup. (2) As the initiator of the Village Pump discussion, I was ready to support any reasonable solution that addressed community-imposed blocks in some way and said either "these can be undone unilaterally" or "these can't be undone", and this is indeed a reasonable proposal. It's better than the "these can't be undone" wording that I proposed. Nyttend (talk) 02:42, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for starting that discussion and am glad this is OK with you. About the last bullet - it is just meant to record and restate that Arbcom motion... should we just provide the link and not try to restate it? It is plenty clear there. Jytdog (talk) 03:00, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Nyttend, I meant to ping you way earlier in this process. The last point about Arbcom blocks is unchanged from how it currently appears in the WP:BLOCK policy. I don't object at all to making the language clearer, but the language is derived from the linked Arbcom motion. Should it be up to Arbcom to manage this? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:12, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't notice that that wording wasn't part of the proposal. Don't worry about it. Nyttend (talk) 19:13, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I support the proposed changes as they reflect standard procedure. However, the wording will be subject to intense wikilawyering in the future so I draw attention to two possible points of argument: (a) "closing administrator"—I think that is appropriate, but this discussion should note that the wording really means admin because there has been a tendency for non-admins to close discussions; (b) "an editor's unblock request"—what if admin A blocks user B and user C asks for an unblock review at WP:AN (I believe such reviews have led to unblocks)? Johnuniq (talk) 03:43, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Unblock requests must originate from the blocked editor. Third parties are not considered to have standing to make the request, and the blocked editor should retain control over when a request is made and the arguments put forth within it. That being said, there may be more complicated circumstances involving multiple people, and the entire scenario can be reviewed, leading to the block being reviewed. This is covered by the review a block portion of the sentence. isaacl (talk) 05:31, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Notification requirement

I am concerned that we are sliding down a slope, and we have to decide, as a community, where and how to draw the line. We have long distinguished between ban and blocks. A ban has always been a sanction decided by the consensus of the community in carrying the weight of the community behind it. A block may arise out of a community discussion but it can also occur at the decision of a single admin. Until now, I'm not aware of any need to make a distinction between a block imposed by a single admin and a block imposed as a result of a community consensus, but these proposed changes will require such a distinction.

In theory, bans were supposed to be imposed at AN, not ANI. This is supposed to be more than a trivial semantic difference. An incident can give rise to a block, but a ban is supposed to be imposed as a result of more serious sequence of events, seriously discussed by the community, and agreed to by a consensus of editors.

@Jytdog: pulled together a list of 13 blocks, (the list is in the Village pump discussion.) all of which were discussed in ANI not AN. The location was proper, because at the time the issues were raised, the discussion was about a block, not a ban. However, @Ivanvector: makes the reasonable observation that "thus, they're bans".

That sentiment seems to be embodied in this proposal to change CBAN wording. The concept of ban, which originally meant, well a ban, but now includes blocks in some circumstances. I think we need to be exceedingly careful about where we draw the line. The proposal does say "a consensus of editors". Does that include, for example, this recent block by @NeilN:? Just to be clear, I have no objection to the block decision, but I think a report to ANI, followed by a "community" discussion which I will repeat in its entirety — "blocked" and closed with no further discussion six hours later counts as a legitimate block but should not be treated as a community block which could only be undone via community discussion. I do think any unblock ought to follow the usual guidelines that the unblocking admin should contact the blocking admin but those are the existing best practices, we are debating a new set of rules applicable to community blocks. Does anything reported to ANI resulting in a block now constitute a community block? I think that goes too far. We ought to have some minimum standards on what defines a community block including length of time the discussion is open.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:55, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick: I agree with you regarding having minimum standards. I think the blocking admin should evaluate the discussion and explicitly mark the block as a community block if the discussion warrants it. Obviously the block you pointed to is not a community block. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:07, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) User:Sphilbrick yep the NeilN block was not the result of community consensus, but rather an admin acting on their own authority . No discussion that reached consensus - just a report and then swift admin action. The first bullet describes a typical community discussion, that is then actually closed. We cannot legislate CLUE and I don't know that it makes sense to describe minimum standards.

But there are more borderline cases. Among the examples I brought at the VP, I thought this close and subsequent action by User:Sandstein was done with admirable clarity and nuance in light of the specific context there (an ongoing AE case I think). In such cases where there is substantial discussion, a closing statement like "this is a community-imposed indef" (which is what should almost always be the case) or "I am indef blocking on my own authority" (should be rare) would be useful -- and as Sandstein did there, if the admin takes over authority from the community it is important to provide a reason. This is not worth going into in the policy but I wanted to note it here on the Talk page. Jytdog (talk) 15:13, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The proposed changes aren't intended to create a distinct community block mechanism, the community has done this on its own. The changes are only meant to clarify that when a sanction derives from community consensus (versus an admin's sole authority, such as from a report at WP:AN3 or WP:AIV) and/or is endorsed by community consensus, it may not be overturned unless the community consents. I don't think there's a benefit to creating a bright line distinction between administrative blocks and community sanctions, it ought to be apparent from the discussion (or lack thereof, as in NeilN's block referenced above) and creating a set of boxes to tick just invites wikilawyering and gaming.

(edit conflict × continued) Regarding "closing administrator", WP:NAC advises against non-administrators closing discussions which are expected to be controversial, and those which they lack the technical access to implement. While technically a non-administrator can close a discussion indicating a consensus to topic ban (for example) I'm not aware of that ever happening and I think such a close would likely be contested. The only common instance where a non-administrator closes a sanction discussion is likely to be one in which no sanction results, and so this section doesn't apply anyway. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:44, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict × again, sorry) And I also agree that admins should make clear the rationale for their blocks. "Per discussion at (link)" ought to be a sufficient block log entry for community-discussed blocks, and clear closing statements are important. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:49, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I accept that writing out minimum standards may be quite difficult. I was initially attracted by the thought of explicitly marking it in the closing discussion, which I support, but I don't think that's quite enough. Imagine the following, plausible scenario: the block of User:Yinzland Is one of the examples in the village pump list which is now declared to be a community block. Suppose the editor writes into OTRS, complaining that they are blocked and asking what can be done. (This is not uncommon, I reviewed hundreds of such requests.) In many cases, I point out the the process for appeal which is typically on the talk page, but sometimes the editor will explain the circumstances and sufficient detail that it makes sense to look into myself. I would always start by looking at the block log to confirm they are blocked, and the block log would tell me the reason "(Personal attacks or harassment: Indefinitely banned for personal attacks)" and the blocking admin Trebor, who hasn't posted since 2011. His a clear example where the usual advice to contact the blocking admin could be ignored. What if the editor was contrite apologized and asked for a second chance? I think most admins would find it reasonable to unblock and watch. However, because this block is a community block which is now a ban and requires a community discussion, I should not unilaterally unblock but bring it to AN for discussion. I'm actually not opposed to that requirement but asking how on earth I would know this. Sorry for all the words but I'm building up to a proposal that a community block can only be considered a community block if it is explicitly noted in the block log. It is unreasonable for an admin reviewing an unblock request to do a search of AN and ANI to see if it may have been a community action.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:46, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, my ec comment above this should probably be below this instead. Yes, I agree that admins can't be mind-readers when it comes to these blocks. We have explicit requirements for log notation for checkuser blocks, for example, maybe something of the sort for community blocks? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:52, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

That is a great point S Philbrick. Can be handled by adding to the very end (where recording things is noted). "If a block is imposed under the process described above, the block log must note this so that future reviewing admins are aware that they cannot unblock on their own authority." or the like. Jytdog (talk) 16:11, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Banning policy#Community bans and restrictions currently says that ...the sanction should be logged at the appropriate venue if necessary, usually Wikipedia:Editing restrictions or Wikipedia:Long-term abuse.. Perhaps "if necessary" should be dropped, and a single required venue noted (with other venues optional)? isaacl (talk) 16:13, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

That wouldn't help S Philbrick, who is addressing the block log, specifically. Jytdog (talk) 16:16, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm assuming that examining the editing restriction log is part of the steps followed by anyone seeking to unblock an editor, so they can understand the actual restriction and read the discussion that led to it. However making logging the sanction mandatory is independent from requiring a notation in the block log, so both can be done. isaacl (talk) 16:27, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

You assume incorrectly. I am aware that the editing restriction log exists, as I occasionally check it out in the context of problematic editing, but it has never occurred to me to check it in connection with an unblock request. I suggest it would be unreasonable bureaucracy to require such an action. If someone wants to log the request there, more power to them but I think checking the block log and attempting to converse with the blocking admin should be sufficient (in the case the block lock does not indicate a need for community discussion). It's quite easy to include such a comment in the block log. I see that many admin's do include a link to an ANI discussion.--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:40, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

The few times I've issued a block on behalf of the community I've included a permanent link to the ANI discussion in the block reason. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:48, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

As do I, I think it's a good practice. I actually didn't know about the editing restrictions page until a week or so ago and I have no faith at all that it's kept up to date. I assume that if the proposed changes are implemented then a notice will go out in the next admins' newsletter, and we could include a reminder to properly annotate the block log (I agree it's the best place for this). Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:06, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I too think it's questionable if the log is up-to-date, and it's probably more essential to examine in cases of restrictions without blocks, where it can be pretty hard to find a pointer to the relevant discussion. Personally I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for administrators to check one place for editing restrictions (particularly if logging is made mandatory). But naturally those doing the work should do what works best for them, so sure, let's put some text into Wikipedia:Blocking policy, maybe something under Wikipedia:Blocking policy § Implementing blocks?

Block log If the block arose from a discussion, please include a link to this discussion in the block log. If the block is enforcing a community sanction, please note this as well.

isaacl (talk) 18:54, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I think if we're going to make logging at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions (I assume) mandatory, we should create a way for it to be done programmatically, i.e. have a bot do it. If we design a common template for notifying a user of a community sanction, a bot could be programmed to automatically update the log from the information provided. I know nothing of the particulars but it should be easy enough to do. Something like {{uw-banned|<type of ban>|<length or indefinite>|<description of sanctions>|<permalink to discussion>}} which would produce a block notice on the user's talk page and which the bot could just parse over to the log. Placement of the banner could be built into Twinkle's block functions, for those admins who use it. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:14, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support I support the concept of including the information in the block log. It is useful, whenever it is feasible, to have information in a single source, and as the block log is something that should almost always be reviewed when considering an unblock, it seems like the logical place. (I started to say it should always be reviewed but I'm literally in the middle of reviewing a uw-ublock-famous, and that doesn't really need a review of the block log).--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:24, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support Honestly IMO should have been policy from the very beginning. Block log notation of relevant discussions is the only way for blocks to be reviewed properly while also maintaining temporal efficiency. Though allowances should be made in wording and in programming such that multiple discussions can be linked in the log (for each block) and so that the block log can be updated in case of an appeal or other secondary relevant discussion. A "bright line" between consensus based and single or small group authority based blocks (or even bans) is appropriate and necessary for the proper function of the is community in my view. It may be appropriate to define a quorum for a consensus based block in the future. Endercase (talk) 01:02, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support notification requirement; agree about "slippery slope"; Oppose adding the language to "Unblocking will almost never be acceptable: * * *When the block is implementing a community sanction which has not been successfully appealed." --David Tornheim (talk) 08:45, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• comment - have added a sentence to the proposal about this. There is no disagreement about this that needs !voting on. The means - bot or manual - is a different discussion. Jytdog (talk) 13:06, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Diff of change, just because I couldn't see it at first. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:36, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

• • I believe there should be couple of sentences added to the section Wikipedia:Blocking policy § Implementing blocks as well, as this section provides technical information for carrying out a block. isaacl (talk) 18:28, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

• Strong support. Individual users, admin or not, should not be able to overturn community consensus. James (^talk/_contribs) 19:47, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose, I think. I still don't know what a "community block" is. If a user is banned by community consensus, then obviously an individual administrator shouldn't be permitted to unilaterally overturn it. As far as blocks go, while I oppose the idea that any sysop should be allowed to indef-block a user outside of user-name violations, vandalism-only accounts, or clear legal threats, as long as it is to be permitted, the reverse must remain true. I also oppose the idea that only the blocked user may request unblocking. It's not uncommon for a third party to ask the blocking administrator to reconsider, or question the block at a notice-board. Joefromrandb (talk) 23:44, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

To your last point, about only the blocked user making unblock requests, that's not meant to be changed by this proposal. I think it's not covered by these sections at all. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 12:36, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

• Dear god yes Admins should not be allowed close discussions where there is overwhelming community consensus to block, and then a few hours later unilaterally overturn "their own block" based on a spontaneous change of heart and/or off-wiki contact with the blocked editor. (In the latter case, community discussion should precede any unblock, since any admin INVOLVED enough to know off the top of their head whether said off-wiki contact contains false or misleading information would be too INVOLVED to close the previous discussion or implement the block in the first place, and a community discussion would allow the presentation of evidence that the off-wiki contact was insincere.)

I know the proposed change wouldn't technically prevent problems like that -- admins already should not do this and the vast majority of the community would likely agree, and the proposed change is essentially cosmetic as it makes said preference a little clearer than it already is -- but it's definitely a move in the right direction.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:23, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Jesus. That wound up being a long "addendum". TLDR: I am biased. I was unilaterally blocked by an admin, and then even when said admin recognized that the block was no longer necessary, they sought community consensus to unblock anyway. On another occasion, I observed an admin refusing to unilaterally block even though they recognized that a block was necessary, directed the block request to ANI, and then unilaterally overruled the block that had been imposed by community consensus. Admins should try, as far as possible, to be consistent about this. This is my personal view related to the policy but not based on a strict reading of what the policy says. If you want to discount my !vote based on me being biased in this manner, I understand. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:09, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

For the record, I'm a little biased in my !vote here, as I personally think all community-imposed "blocks", fixed-term or indefinite, should for unblocking purposes be treated the same as formal site-bans. There are a lot of editors who don't know the functional difference between a block and a site-ban, or who do know the difference but when !voting in ANI (etc.) discussions tend to disregard it, apparently more because they think the phrase "site ban" is ugly than because of a considered opinion that any admin should be allowed unilaterally unblock. I don't read the proposed amendment as actually imposing this personal preference of mine on the policy (it clearly doesn't), but it is a slight, symbolic move in that direction. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:34, 17 May 2017 (UTC) I also sympathise with User:Sphilbrick's slippery slope argument, but I actually think that going further down that slope is a good thing. I think the these proposed changes will require [...] a distinction between a block imposed by a single admin and a block imposed as a result of a community consensus reflects a inaccurate reading of the proposed amendment, as the When the block is implementing a community sanction part refers to the imposition of a block as an explicit implementation of a community site-ban. It would not formally ban admins from unilaterally undoing community-imposed blocks. I just think that admins should be encouraged to bring their personal inclination to unblock before the community. This is what was done when I was last blocked, and my block had been a unilateral action by an admin; it was only after a bunch of users (mostly admins) agreed that I should be unblocked that I was unblocked. It's completely bizarre that, depending on the personal inclinations of the blocking admin, someone who was unilaterally blocked should not be unblocked without community consensus, but someone who was blocked with overwhelming community consensus can be unblocked unilaterally by an admin. And yes, I am thinking of one block in particular (other than my own), although my view has not really changed since the incident in question. It is one of the ones User:Jytdog listed, and how it came about was almost conspiratorial -- the blocking admin, on noticing the blockworthy offense, said that they would have blocked if there was community consensus to do so on ANI, and then once the ANI thread was opened and showed overwhelming consensus for a block, he jumped in, closed the discussion, and then a few hours later unilaterally unblocked. It was like he specifically wanted to overrule the community just because he could. If you want more specific details, email me. My having been aware of the incident in question is not an IBAN-violation (as I was notified on my user talk page, and specifically asked whether it would be out of line for me to comment there on this page -- scroll up), and it having influenced my way of thinking about the project is not either, but specifically elaborating and naming names would almost certainly be. Put simply, if an admin refuses to block unilaterally, they should not unblock unilaterally, and vice versa (as in the case of my last block). Also, when admins are explicitly directing community discussion for "community blocks" as opposed to the "unilateral blocks" that they are reluctant to perform, to ANI, and when a lot of ban discussions take place on ANI rather than AN to begin with (and no one ever brings that up on said ANI-based ban discussions), then the technical distinction between AN and ANI (which, again, no one seems to recognize in practice) should not formally influence policy, in my opinion. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:03, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.