Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Olakunbi Olasope

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Determining notability in academics is difficult, and this case is no exception. Sandstein 19:48, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Olakunbi Olasope

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Article about a professor that fails WP:BASIC and WP:BIO. There's just not enough coverage on the subject currently. Lapablo (talk) 17:20, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Lapablo (talk) 17:20, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Lapablo (talk) 17:20, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Nigeria-related deletion discussions. Lapablo (talk) 17:20, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Several hits at this Google Scholar search but with what seem to be low citation numbers. Are the citation numbers low for the field of classics? Eastmain (talk • contribs) 18:19, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep According to the notability guidelines for Wikipedia:Notability (academics), Olakunbi Olasope as a subject meets Criteria 5: 'The person holds or has held a named chair appointment or distinguished professor appointment at a major institution of higher education and research, or an equivalent position in countries where named chairs are uncommon.' She has been promoted to the level of Professor which is the equivalent of a named chair. She has been Head of Department and has received several awards. Her work has been documented in the media, as the page records. Her academic research on the reception of Classics in west Africa has a disproportionate impact as the field of Classics is dominated by study of the ancient Mediterranean. The subject is notable and the page has been well substantiated relative to comparable pages. Srsval (talk) 19:38, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep citation metrics are only one way of establishing notability. In classics they are not much used as a way of assessing impact. There are specific guidelines on notability for academics which are relevant here. Srsval sets out the case for the subject's notability in line with these and the page should remain. It's not even an edge case. Claire 75 (talk) 19:56, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. As a Professor, Olasope clearly meets notability, and this article demonstrates her notability with a range of reliable sources. Eritha (talk) 20:43, 21 May 2019 (UTC)Eritha[reply]
Keep the sourcing looks fine to me. Mccapra (talk) 21:16, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As well as the points above, Olasope's work has gained attention in the media – a good indication of the significance of Olasope's work, especially given she isn't primarily a public historian (as I understand it, though I could be wrong). Richard Nevell (talk) 21:56, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Olasope has a significant position within the discipline and meets notability. Schedekdotes (talk) 21:59, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. We don't have enough evidence of highly cited works or well-reviewed books for WP:PROF or WP:AUTHOR, and beyond the lone book review of an edited volume we don't currently have any reliable sources that go into nontrivial detail about the subject. In particular the two copies of the "classics is not dead" source both quote her rather than being sources about her, the "launching the Classical Association" source mentions briefly someone with a different name (Kunbi Olasope) without clear evidence that it is the same person and without enough detail to be usable as a source, and the eTV source only includes her name on a list of panelists. So all we actually have to go on is the word of several commenters here that she plays a significant role in Nigerian academia, and her position as a professor in a major Nigerian university. I don't think either one is enough. Certainly being a professor alone, without other evidence, would not be enough in other countries and I don't see why Nigeria should be different in that respect. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:34, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment in response to David Eppstein: according to academic notability being a Professor in a university is sufficient to justify an article even if no other notability criteria are met. Kunbi is clearly a shortened version of Olakunbi; here is a source which refers to her interchangeably by both forms of her name: https://www.academia.edu/9339297/William_J._Dominik_Classics_as_a_World_Discipline_Third_Biennial_Constantine_Leventis_Memorial_Lecture_Nigeria_and_the_Classics_26_2010_1-25. The fact that she is quoted and referred to in several news sources itself demonstrates interest in her work amongst the Nigerian media. Eritha (talk) 08:26, 23 May 2019 (UTC)Eritha[reply]
'Comment' in response to David Eppstein. In countries where a named chair is uncommon, the rank of professor is sufficient to demonstrate notability. This is the case in Ghana. And also in Nigeria, which of course is where Olasope is classics professor at Ibadan and I meant to type earlier (was thinking about her role in setting up the classical association of Ghana)Claire 75 (talk) 14:06, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Citations to her work are minescule. The claim that just holding routine professorial rank confers notability has never been accepted on Wikipedia. Xxanthippe (talk) 06:49, 26 May 2019 (UTC).[reply]
Comment: academic notability states: "Academics/professors meeting any one of the following conditions, as substantiated through reliable sources, are notable....5. The person holds or has held a named chair appointment or distinguished professor appointment at a major institution of higher education and research, or an equivalent position in countries where named chairs are uncommon." As the latter is the case in Nigeria, this is not a 'routine professorial rank' (as for instance in the USA where the title of 'professor' is used for a variety of levels of academic positions) but the highest possible position that can be held in the subject's university, and therefore fulfills WP:NPROF Eritha (talk) 10:08, 26 May 2019 (UTC)Eritha[reply]

Why are we even having to debate this? The subject meets the notability guidelines, the tag should be removed Srsval (talk) 16:09, 26 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tone 18:56, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: It has been established that the subject meets academic notability by virtue of her rank. Complaints about the number of sources (which is by no means an absence of sources) don't seem to me to take proper account of how much less online material there is for Africa. Furius (talk) 20:39, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I don't see what more can be added to the discussion here. Several of us have repeatedly demonstrated that the subject meets WP:NPROF which is sufficient on its own to keep the page. The low Google Scholar citation count is a) not relevant given that she meets one notability criterion already and b) as Furius points out, not reliable as a measure of her disciplinary impact since many African publications, and frankly many publications in Classics from anywhere in the world, will not be available online. Other objections to the relevance of media sources, etc, have been answered above as demonstrating public interest in her work. Eritha (talk) 08:58, 29 May 2019 (UTC)Eritha[reply]
Keep per Claire 75.Tamsier (talk) 09:16, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep Just "is a professor" doesn't cut it and never has, and her citations are actually bafflingly sparse; under most circumstances I think that would be something of a dealbreaker. However, head of department counts for something (AFAIK actual named chairs are somewhat sparse in many Asian and African universities), as does convening large conferences. She's also got a decent amount of coverage in popular media. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 13:37, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The position of Professor is not equal to distinguished professor here--the places where it is, are the places where there is only 1 professor per subject. I agree citations are of no help in determining notability in classics. Rather, notability as a researcher in classics comes from published books by major academic presses. She has none. And none of the articles listed are a major classics journal. DGG ( talk ) 04:07, 4 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. As a Professor Olasope meets the notability guidelines, in addition to the reasonably long list of publications in the article, and media coverage which could be added to the article to secure bio notability. MillerJPower (talk) 22:47, 4 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Which category of WP:Prof do you claim is met? Xxanthippe (talk) 23:00, 4 June 2019 (UTC).[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I am relisting this, because I think the following could be further settled: 1. Is the rank of "Professor" the equivalent of "Distinguished Professor" where she currently resides? 2. Many people have noted she is often mentioned in popular culture, but these claims are vague. This is an opportunity to clearly show GNG is being met, independent of PROF.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 23:35, 4 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete citations are not sufficient to show notability, and not all people who reach the rank of full professor should be considered notable. I am actually beganning to doubt that the holding a named chair guideline makes any sense with the recent mass proliferation of named chairs.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:56, 5 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is a good point. There is no evidence that the position held here is out-of the ordinary. If WP:Prof#5 is being gamed it needs to be looked at. Xxanthippe (talk) 05:25, 5 June 2019 (UTC).[reply]

Comment WP:BIAS looms large here. In a Nigerian setting the lady is obviously notable. Unfortunately WIkipedia's rules are tailored for and by the colonial masters. The very fact that WP:BIAS is just an essay is eloquent in this respect. 188.216.192.146 (talk) 06:38, 5 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I second the above comment. Lack of publications in journals/with publishers deemed 'major' by people in the Global North does not necessarily mean that a Nigerian academic's publications are insignificant (ditto lack of citations showing up on Google Scholar in a country and field in which relatively few publications are available online); in this case the subject is clearly notable within Nigeria due to both her position and media interest. The talk page of a single article is also not the place to hold a wider discussion of whether WP:Prof is fit for purpose or not; if the article fulfils the requirements as currently written - which it arguably does, since 'Professor' in this academic's department, which does not have named chairs, is the highest possible academic position and held by relatively few people - it should be kept, and any discussion about whether WP:Prof] needs rewriting be taken to a more suitable location where a wider discussion amongst a larger number of editors is possible. Eritha (talk) 09:14, 5 June 2019 (UTC)Eritha[reply]
Keep Notable academic whose work has been noted in the media. I wish this pattern of bringing WOC academic articles to AfD would go away. --Tagishsimon (talk) 09:23, 5 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I third the comment from the anonymous contributor above, and share the sentiment from Tagishsimon Srsval (talk) 10:34, 5 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment In other countries and in other areas we might see notability in first graduate of the University of Whatever or best high jumper in Finland. Is it possible to work out her notability in Nigeria? Victuallers (talk) 10:43, 5 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment in response to @Victuallers: she holds one of the highest academic positions in the only Classics department in Nigeria? (source: [[1]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eritha (talk • contribs) 13:46, 5 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Ref 1 shows that she does not hold the rank of Professor. She is a Senior Lecturer, two ranks below Professor. The academic ranks are: Lecturer, Senior Lecturer, Reader, Professor. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:35, 5 June 2019 (UTC).[reply]

See refs 7 & 8 (same article). Furius (talk) 22:59, 5 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the reference. However there is no evidence that the position is non-routine as she was promoted in a tranche along with several others. Is it suggested that they all rate with WP:Prof#5? Xxanthippe (talk) 23:08, 5 June 2019 (UTC).[reply]

Keep This person leads the largest Classics department in the most populous and largest economically country in Africa. She convenes conferences. If she was the leading or first African American with this position at a leading US Uni 100 years ago then I suspect she would have an article. Victuallers (talk) 08:36, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

'Comment' in response to various above: in fact, this is the ONLY Classics department in Nigeria, so subject is one of the two highest-ranking classicists in the entire country. The reference to promotion of '20 dons' in article cited above includes some being promoted to Associate Prof as well as to full Prof; the fact that these promotions took place simultaneously does not indicate that this is a 'routine' promotion, in fact the reporting of this event in the media would suggest otherwise Eritha (talk) 20:42, 10 June 2019 (UTC)Eritha[reply]

~~Keep~~ Frustratingly, again, in support for Eritha's above comment. The notability of the subject has been clearly established, this discussion is becoming too long and the AfD tag should be removed. This has gone on long enough. Srsval (talk) 08:47, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You are allowed to continue the discussion, of course, but you can't !vote more than once. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 17:13, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, that should have been obvious! Srsval (talk) 20:52, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment — Why is this article relisted again when it is quite evident that the subject passes our notability guidelines? I totally agree with the IP's assertion. There is clearly a bias here which I find rather worrying.Tamsier (talk) 12:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Subject completely misses WP:ACADEMIC. She has not an "named chair", but holds an ordinary full professorship, which is not enough to satisfy any of the criteria of ACADEMIC. Citations do not show notability either (which is not the same as saying that they show the subject is not notable). The much touted mentions in the press are in passing and not about this person, hence she also misses WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO. Unless one of the "keep" !voters can show at least two reliable sources that discuss the subject in depth, this article will be deleted. As for the appeal to BIAS above, there would be abias if we would apply more stringent criteria to this bio because the subject is African/Nigerian or a woman. That is not the case, we apply exactly the same criteria for notability and verifiability here that we would apply to anybody else. --Randykitty (talk) 13:28, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.