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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: THE CIRCLE OF 5THS


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/299293

kinggrumpy - Posted - 02/13/2015:  16:18:57


Can anyone explain, in laymen's terms, how I should be using the Circle of 5ths?  I would like the basics.  I am not writing or composing music.  Thank you.



 



Ray J



Edited by - Texasbanjo on 02/14/2015 05:24:40

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/13/2015:  16:48:53


Must be pretty usefullwinkcircle of fifths



matter of fact, I'll add one



Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 02/13/2015 17:17:03



Circle of 5ths

   

Jack Baker - Posted - 02/13/2015:  18:56:16


Ha! The link next to the smiley should do it Rick--great splash of the Circles. smiley...Jack




originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Must be pretty usefullwinkcircle of fifths




matter of fact, I'll add one







 



Edited by - Jack Baker on 02/13/2015 18:57:16

chuckv97 - Posted - 02/13/2015:  20:25:59


I'll try with words (layman's):



Key of C , fifth note of the scale is G ,, fifth note of a G scale is D ,, fifth note of a D scale is A,,fifth note of an A scale is E ,, fifth note of an E scale is B ,, fifth note of a B scale is F sharp ,, fifth note of an F sharp scale is C sharp ,, fifth note of a C sharp scale is G sharp ,, fifth note of a G sharp scale is D sharp ,, fifth note of a D sharp scale is A sharp ,, fifth note of an A sharp scale is E sharp which is the same as F ,,fifth note of an F scale is C ,so now you're back to C where you started from. C sharp, G sharp, D sharp and A sharp are usually named D flat, A flat ,E flat ,and B flat respectively. Twelve keys,like a clock. First string open is a D note on banjo ,,twelfth fret note is also a D , one octave higher.

Many songs,like Salty Dog Blues and Don't Let Your Deal Go Down,cycle forward in fourths ( the opposite of fifths). SDB goes G to E then cycles in fourths from the E to A to D to G. Hope this is clearer than mud. 😅



Edited by - chuckv97 on 02/13/2015 20:32:03

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 02/13/2015:  20:59:55


Ray, we've corresponded before (a while back), so you know I'm not trying to make things difficult.



Can you tell us what has prompted you to ask?



PM me if you wish and we can sort the question out a bit more.


BoJack - Posted - 02/14/2015:  04:34:11


Ray your question is / was the circle of fifths..."how to use it"
I'm a beginner and wondered the same thing.
I found the answer in a book by Wayne Erbsen the book is
Clawhammer Banjo for the Complete ignoramus on page 61
he explains how it can be used to navigate from one key to another
He calls it the Wheel of Music. It helped me figure out how to use it.
I'm sure there are many uses for it but you wanted basic info.
Hope this helps

Ron H

Prof - Posted - 02/14/2015:  04:53:45


I'll take a stab at keeping it simple for what you probably need to know for starters (and that's all I can explain anyway!).  Pick a letter, any letter.   Let's say you are playing a song in the key of G.  The G is the "I (one) chord" in the Nashville numbering system.  Many bluegrass songs like to follow a I IV V pattern.  In the key of G, the C chord is the IV chord (left of G on the circle), and the D chord is the V chord (right of G on the circle).  Song in the key of C?  I IV V chords are C F G.  Also, the little chord listed under the I chord is the common minor chord that sometimes comes along for the ride in certain songs -- so you'll notice in the key of G, E minor will often show up in the song (ala Foggy Mountain Breakdown).  Hope this helps a little!





Edited by - Prof on 02/14/2015 04:54:41

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/14/2015:  04:59:43


quote:

Originally posted by RawhideCreek

Ray, we've corresponded before (a while back), so you know I'm not trying to make things difficult.




Can you tell us what has prompted you to ask?




PM me if you wish and we can sort the question out a bit more.







Russ these PM private kind of posts by members seem to me to go against the spirit of the forum. A public answer here helps many, not just one. Just sayin'wink



To add to the discussion, notice for memorization purposes that the word BEAD happens to be spelled out two times going in a counter-clockwise direction.



Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 02/14/2015 05:18:55

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/14/2015:  05:02:25


Basically what the good Prof said but just a little more:



guitaristguitarist.com/guitar_...eory.html



good luck,



ken


Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/14/2015:  05:24:23


FYI:  This is music theory, not playing advice and I'm moving the thread to the Music Theory Forum. 


minstrelmike - Posted - 02/14/2015:  07:45:59


I don't think you need to understand the circle of fifths.



What you should do instead is play the chords to at least 30 different songs in a few different keys using 4-finger chords up-the-neck between frets 4 and 14. If you pay attention to playing a C/F/G7 song around the 10th fret and play a G/C/D7 song around the 5th fret, you'll see the exact same relationships on the fretboard that you'll see in the circle of fifths.



And if you want to understand the circle of fifths, don't try to memorize it. Build it yourself. Draw a circle, put C at 12 o'clock and go around the circle going up a fifth each time. And if you can't do that theoretically (in your head), then try it on the banjo. Make a C chord of some shape (F-,D- or barre) and figure out the 5th chord movement and name that and write it down.



Draw the circle every other day for a few times and also look at the chord relationships on the fret board and you'll have the enough of the fundamental knowledge required to improve your playing.


mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/14/2015:  10:23:31


quote:

Originally posted by minstrelmike

I don't think you need to understand the circle of fifths.




What you should do instead is play the chords to at least 30 different songs in a few different keys using 4-finger chords up-the-neck between frets 4 and 14. If you pay attention to playing a C/F/G7 song around the 10th fret and play a G/C/D7 song around the 5th fret, you'll see the exact same relationships on the fretboard that you'll see in the circle of fifths.




And if you want to understand the circle of fifths, don't try to memorize it. Build it yourself. Draw a circle, put C at 12 o'clock and go around the circle going up a fifth each time. And if you can't do that theoretically (in your head), then try it on the banjo. Make a C chord of some shape (F-,D- or barre) and figure out the 5th chord movement and name that and write it down.




Draw the circle every other day for a few times and also look at the chord relationships on the fret board and you'll have the enough of the fundamental knowledge required to improve your playing.







That all works but not for the novice.


Lew H - Posted - 02/14/2015:  11:28:44


All this is good theoretically, but when we play Salty Dog and tunes with similar chord progression, we are not playing a circle of 5th chords as described here.  Salty Dog chords are  G   E   A  D  G.  We jump from 1 oclock to 4 oclock, then move backwards--counterclockwise--making this a "cricle" of 4ths. I've always used the phrase "circle of 5ths" for this because that's what everyone seems to call it. But is it really that in music theory terms?  Note that the often used mnemonic, BEAD,  is moving counterclockwise on the diagram, and hence is a circle of 4ths as well.



Bill Keith at a banjo camp describe the bridge part of Caravan as having a "circle of 4ths," which seems a more apt description.  Starting in C major, you move to the 4 chord of C, which is F, then to the key of F's 4 chord,  B flat, and B flat's 4th, E flat.  Should we technically be speaking of an arc of 4lths, since this is not a full circle?  



I think I'm correct, but I never thought about this before, and I may be just confused.


mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/14/2015:  11:52:05


quote:

Originally posted by Lew H

All this is good theoretically, but when we play Salty Dog and tunes with similar chord progression, we are not playing a circle of 5th chords as described here.  Salty Dog chords are  G   E   A  D  G.  We jump from 1 oclock to 4 oclock, then move backwards--counterclockwise--making this a "cricle" of 4ths. I've always used the phrase "circle of 5ths" for this because that's what everyone seems to call it. But is it really that in music theory terms?  Note that the often used mnemonic, BEAD,  is moving counterclockwise on the diagram, and hence is a circle of 4ths as well.




Bill Keith at a banjo camp describe the bridge part of Caravan as having a "circle of 4ths," which seems a more apt description.  Starting in C major, you move to the 4 chord of C, which is F, then to the key of F's 4 chord,  B flat, and B flat's 4th, E flat.  Should we technically be speaking of an arc of 4lths, since this is not a full circle?  




I think I'm correct, but I never thought about this before, and I may be just confused.







Here's the first Circle of fifths in Idea grammatikii musikiyskoy (Moscow, 1679) notice it goes from 1 to 12.



And yes songs tend to progress in fourths which generate good progressions like 7 3 2 5 1.



If you were to progress in fifths you would get b6 b3 b7 4 1, yuck



Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 02/14/2015 11:53:32



Circle Of Fifths Original

   

chuckv97 - Posted - 02/14/2015:  12:28:43


Not to overstate , but that's what I posted when explaining "Salty Dog Blues" and "Don't Let Your Deal Go Down" cycle in fourths (opposite of fifths) .

kinggrumpy - Posted - 02/14/2015:  12:42:32


Thanks guys, for all of your help to understand the Circle of 5ths.  Think I got it!  It really helped me & others who had questions too.  Thanks Russ, for your personal attention.



Ray J


Lew H - Posted - 02/14/2015:  13:22:53


I apologize, CHuck.  I think I fazed out toward the end of reading your post.  Anyone know why we have come to call this "arc of 4ths" a "circle of 5ths?"


minstrelmike - Posted - 02/14/2015:  13:55:30


If you go up a fifth from C, you end up at G.



If you go down a fifth from C, you end up at F, which looks like you went up a fourth.



If you go around a normally-made circle of fifths clockwise, you go up by fifths for each key. If you go counterclockwise on that same circle, then you go down a fifth each time or up a fourth--so it could be called a circle of fourths also.



But the major harmony components of a plucked string are the octave and then the fifth so music theory type folks go with "fifths" kind of like going with first principles. I tend to explain music stuff in fifths, even fourths (which are just fifths in a different direction ;-) 


minstrelmike - Posted - 02/14/2015:  14:06:08


quote:


That all works but not for the novice.







So you think it's better for the rank novice to learn theory before practice?

Not me. If you don't know how to play a bunch of songs, learning the theory is awful theoretical. It's like trying to learn grammar without actually talking first.



imo, as soon as you can count a fifth--if you are going to learn theory (which is not necessary to know)--then you ought to be able to construct the circle by yourself. For folks into music theory basics, the normal pattern is to learn the chromatic scale arranged in note order, and then learn it arranged in order of fifths. Then once you have yourself centered on octaves and fifths up and down, you start on scales or chords. And in most real music courses, that doesn't start until after you've already played the melody to quite a few songs so you've got something to talk about and refer to when discussing and trying learn theory.



I'm sorry for getting ticked off but playing real chords (or real melodies) to real songs is the only thing I've actually seen work for the novice, practically or theoretically. YMMV


mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/14/2015:  15:12:19


quote:

Originally posted by minstrelmike

quote:




That all works but not for the novice.








So you think it's better for the rank novice to learn theory before practice?

Not me. If you don't know how to play a bunch of songs, learning the theory is awful theoretical. It's like trying to learn grammar without actually talking first.




imo, as soon as you can count a fifth--if you are going to learn theory (which is not necessary to know)--then you ought to be able to construct the circle by yourself. For folks into music theory basics, the normal pattern is to learn the chromatic scale arranged in note order, and then learn it arranged in order of fifths. Then once you have yourself centered on octaves and fifths up and down, you start on scales or chords. And in most real music courses, that doesn't start until after you've already played the melody to quite a few songs so you've got something to talk about and refer to when discussing and trying learn theory.




I'm sorry for getting ticked off but playing real chords (or real melodies) to real songs is the only thing I've actually seen work for the novice, practically or theoretically. YMMV







Hello Mike as I've stated before on other threads I use theory applied to the banjo to teach a new student melody and chords right from the get-go. This is the system I have developed over 40 years of teaching. Everybody has their own way of doing things and this is just the way that works best for me and my students. My point with the novice is that most theory talk goes right over their head and just turns them off on the whole subject. It's all about drawing a line on knowledge input for example no one seems to be bothered to learn the 145 chords but there is so much more that can make people a better player. Most people don't have a clue what they are playing, they use their God given ears or tab etc. and that can get you through if you only play 145 songs. I've probably ticked you off again since you say people don't need theory, sorry


torpedo - Posted - 03/02/2015:  06:02:10


There's always The Chord Wheel.  Check out  THE CHORD WHEEL by Jim Fleser.  I think you'll find it interesting.


raharris - Posted - 03/02/2015:  06:17:02


Amazon has Fleser's Chord Wheel for just under $9.  The blurb reads:



(Instructional). Master chord theory ... in minutes! The Chord Wheel is a revolutionary device that puts the most essential and practical applications of chord theory into your hands. This tool will help you: Improvise and Solo Talk about chops! Comprehend key structure like never before; Transpose Keys Instantly transpose any progression into each and every key; Compose Your Own Music Watch your songwriting blossom! No music reading is necessary. "This is the kind of device that players of any instrument can use to enhance their musical understanding. Chord and key relationships are inseparable, and learning these relationships is a must in becoming a successful musician." Alan Remington, Orange Coast College Music Dept.





Apparently it's also an iPad app . . . 



 



Edited by - raharris on 03/02/2015 06:17:52

torpedo - Posted - 03/02/2015:  06:21:20


I bought The Chord Wheel a couple of years ago Bob, and believe you me it is all that it's cracked up to be.  Joe


250gibson - Posted - 03/02/2015:  07:51:04


quote:

Originally posted by Lew H

I apologize, CHuck.  I think I fazed out toward the end of reading your post.  Anyone know why we have come to call this "arc of 4ths" a "circle of 5ths?"







I learned the diagram originally written in a clockwise direction as the cycle of 4ths written going clockwise from C:  C,F,Bb, Eb, etc., etc.  I think I was originally taught it this way because my 1st instrument was bass, and on a bass fingerboard the 4ths are all on the same position, on adjacent strings.   It doesn't really matter. The relationships are the same. Ie:  going clockwise around a circle of 5ths gives you 5ths, going anti-clockwise on the circle of 5ths gives you 4ths.  Going clockwise on a circle of 4ths gives you 4ths, going anti-clockwise on the circle of 4ths gives you 5ths. 



 


cbskibum - Posted - 03/05/2015:  18:55:49


There are many reasons the circle is important. At a very basic level and with practical application...

If you practice and listen (important) to your chords in the order of the Circle both forward and backwards it might make you a better player, better understand key signatures and chord progressions. If the flat chords are scary skip those for now. Ehh learn Bb

Here is a mnemonic to help you memorize the orders.

Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father

Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle

Practice that for a couple weeks. Even just groups of 3 to start will get you far...

And then reread all the excellent advice above and you will see much of what everybody else above said will start to make even more sense..

Take care and good luck...

Keith

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/05/2015:  22:11:23


quote:

Originally posted by kinggrumpy

Can anyone explain, in laymen's terms, how I should be using the Circle of 5ths?  I would like the basics.  I am not writing or composing music.  Thank you.




 




Ray J







I don't think that using the circle of fifths is really the point. It is mainly a visual aid to help you understand the relationships that exist in music.It is true the the I IV V of each key is grouped together. Also true that as you go clockwise from C you add a sharp to each scale (or key signature) and as you go anti-clockwise from C you add a flat. And there are many other connections which, from a theoretical point of view, are pretty cool. To which you might say - so what? it won't help you play any better, but more knowledge is always a good thing and understanding the relationships in music is fundamental to understanding theory.



Edited by - Laurence Diehl on 03/05/2015 22:16:22

garret freed - Posted - 05/30/2015:  19:53:41


A good way to use the circle of 5ths, IMO at least, is to play scales with roots following the circle-> for example play an G scale, then D scale, then A scale, then E scale, etc. That way, you learn the positions of all the roots on your banjo, and you learn the relationships between the roots at the same time, so you'll always know the 4th or 5th of any root. It is really helpful because if you progress from root to root with any other interval besides 4ths or 5ths, you don't cover all 12 roots.

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