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==Untitled==
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==Styles/genres played==
There seems to be some vehement disagreement as whether Gambale has played [[instrumental rock]]. Now, if one listens to some of his 1990s albums in particular (and even his early albums in the 1980s), it is clear that his playing has entered this genre many times—despite him being known primarily for [[jazz fusion]]. For example, two of [[Jeff Beck]]'s solo albums in the 1970s (''[[Wired]]'' and ''[[Blow by Blow]]''), and the bulk of the [[Mahavishnu Orchestra]]'s discography, are widely considered early staples of instrumental rock, yet they sound nothing like [[Steve Vai]] or [[Joe Satriani]].<br><br>Just because there isn't a 'heavy' feel to it or it sounds 'softer' compared to [[shred guitar|shred]]-orientated artists such as [[Jason Becker]], doesn't mean that it doesn't encompass all the basic traits of instrumental rock. Also, it's not as if his style is being labelled excessively broadly with simply "[[rock music|rock]]", because that wouldn't be specific enough. Instrumental rock, however, is an accurate description of the (generally) non-vocal stylings of Gambale. [[User:Mac Dreamstate|Mac Dreamstate]] ([[User talk:Mac Dreamstate|talk]]) 20:22, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
:Ok, I understand the instrumenal rock part, yet there are a few albums where the instrumental rock must be dropped <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.68.229.73|99.68.229.73]] ([[User talk:99.68.229.73|talk]]) 01:00, 7 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
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:::If you are going to put down instrumental rock, you'll have to put down instrumental jazz or just jazz. Remember Gambale comes from the school of jazz unlike Beck who comes from the school of rock. So obviously Becks stuff may be considered rock/fusion, while Gambale is jazz/fusion. You can also hear the difference easily. Frank is more complex like a true jazz guitarist, while Beck is more simple like a rock guitarist. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.68.229.73|99.68.229.73]] ([[User talk:99.68.229.73|talk]]) 01:10, 7 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::Well, since it seems as though we both have valid viewpoints, there's always the even-broader [[Jazz fusion#Jazz rock|jazz rock]] category, although I've never been too keen on that outdated term myself. However, I see no reason as to why both jazz fusion and instrumental rock cannot reside together as infobox genres. It adds more descriptive depth to his work than simply "jazz" or "rock", because any fan of his knows that he is more than just a straightforward "fusion guitarist" or "rock guitarist"—rather, on each album he does a little bit of both and meshes them together. So upon viewing the album pages, fans of either genre (or both) can decide to explore an album further if they see fit.<br><br>And to quote Wikipedia's own definition of [[rock music|rock]]...<br><br>"Rock music is a genre of popular music that entered the mainstream in the 1950s. It has its roots in 1940s and 1950s rock and roll, rhythm and blues, country music and also drew on folk music, jazz and classical music. The sound of rock often revolves around the '''electric guitar, a back beat laid down by a rhythm section of electric bass guitar, drums, and keyboard instruments such as Hammond organ, piano, or, since the 1970s, synthesizers.''' Along with the guitar or keyboards, saxophone and blues-style harmonica are sometimes used as soloing instruments. In its "purest form", it "has three chords, a strong, insistent back beat, and a catchy melody."<br><br>In the late 1960s and early 1970s, rock music developed different subgenres. When it was blended with folk music it created folk rock, with blues to create blues-rock and '''with jazz, to create jazz-rock fusion.''' In the 1970s, rock incorporated influences from soul, funk, and Latin music. Also in the 1970s, rock developed a number of subgenres, such as soft rock, glam rock, heavy metal, hard rock, progressive rock, and punk rock. Rock subgenres that emerged in the 1980s included new wave, hardcore punk and alternative rock. In the 1990s, rock subgenres included grunge, Britpop, indie rock, and nu metal." [[User:Mac Dreamstate|Mac Dreamstate]] ([[User talk:Mac Dreamstate|talk]]) 01:20, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
:::::Ok, I'm not worried about the definition of rock. I'm more worried about the definition of Frank's work. On all of his albums, if you put down instrumental rock, then you'll have to put down jazz. Jazz is the more important in his work, so you would have to put it before the rock. I don't know why you left out the jazz on many of the albums. On the Gambale/Holdsworth Album "Truth in Shredding" I understand it sounds rockish because of the electrified band, yet they rely more on the jazz tradition also due to the fact that they are playing bebop standards. They're playing bebop standards on electric guitar, so that doesn't automatically qualify it as instrumental rock. It qualifies it as fusion. I think if a jazz person plays a electric guitar then it gets the fusion genre. Also, in interviews of Holdsworth on youtube, he states that he does not play jazz or rock yet he leans more on jazz due to the improvisation. The only rock imput is from the guitar he uses. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aAYfZdkCA8 listen at 1:40-2:20. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.68.229.73|99.68.229.73]] ([[User talk:99.68.229.73|talk]]) 01:33, 7 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::::I neglected to put "jazz" on its own at the time of making the pages, because then I would've had to put the broad term "rock" on its own as well. That, then, results in unnecessary [[Wikipedia:Fancruft|list crufting]], which is unfortunately what we've both ended up doing. So when originally labelling the genres, I figured that both '''jazz''' fusion and instrumental '''rock''', as specific genres, would suffice. See how that works? Jazz fusion is derived from jazz (itself a very broad genre), and instrumental rock from rock (even broader). He and his band play both styles on every album except his most recent three, so therefore I included them alongside each other. That I happened to put instrumental rock ahead of jazz fusion on some pages reflects my opinion on what is the more prominent 'feel'—i.e. ''The Great Explorers'' and ''Passages'' have lots of distorted guitar and not a very 'jazzy' thing going on, whilst ''Note Worker'' and ''Thinking Out Loud'' have their instrumental rock moments ("High 5" and "My Little Viper") but are overall glorified jazz fests.<br><br>And whilst you may not be concerned about the definition of rock, I quoted it for you because the core elements of Gambale's work—disregarding for a moment his individual jazz stylings—fall largely under that category. There are punchy drums, electric guitar (even if it isn't distorted, one only has to look at bands such [[The Beatles]] to hear 'soft' guitar work), keyboards, bass, and hardly any vocals. Those already make it instrumental rock by [[instrumental rock#1970s|Wikipedia's own definition]]. That's just how it is. Gambale himself then applies the jazz flavour with his tone and style, which ultimately makes it both jazz fusion and instrumental rock. The absolute basis of rock (drums, bass, and/or keyboard) always lies underneath whatever jazz he's playing.<br><br>Ultimately, what I suggest is that we keep both jazz fusion and instrumental rock on all his album pages (except obviously the non-existent ''Raison d'Être'', ''Natural High'' and ''Natural Selection'' pages, which are solely acoustic works). By taking out the overly specific smooth jazz and whatnot, we still end up with an accurate description of what can be expected on the albums. They are both jazz fusion and instrumental rock at their core. On some albums the other takes priority, so it could look like this...<br><br>''Brave New Guitar'' — jazz fusion, instrumental rock<br>''A Present for the Future'' — jazz fusion, instrumental rock<br>''Thunder from Down Under'' — jazz fusion, instrumental rock<br>''Note Worker'' — jazz fusion, instrumental rock<br>''The Great Explorers'' — instrumental rock, jazz fusion<br>''Passages'' — instrumental rock, jazz fusion<br>''Thinking Out Loud'' — jazz fusion, instrumental rock<br>''Coming to Your Senses'' — instrumental rock, jazz fusion<br><br>Can't we both live with that? You've got the ever-important jazz fusion in there first and foremost (through which people can navigate to jazz alone or even smooth jazz if they want to know more about its lineage), and there's the instrumental rock fundamental to back it up. On other albums jazz fusion takes a back seat (he doesn't always do the jazzy thing). Remember that jazz fusion doesn't always have drums, bass and keyboards, so the inclusion of instrumental rock should be needed to describe the drum-driven, all-instrumental feel of his albums. How does that sound to you? I think it's a fair compromise. [[User:Mac Dreamstate|Mac Dreamstate]] ([[User talk:Mac Dreamstate|talk]]) 02:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
:::::::I think the main album that needs to be fixed is the thinking out loud album. That album is smooth jazz with a hint of fusion. If you think that the pop/rock drums qualify it for instrumental rock, then you're wrong. You should try listening to more smooth jazz. All smooth jazz has that type of drum sound. This doesn't mean that when labeling smooth jazz albums that you should put down instrumental rock. It's just smooth jazz. When you state smooth jazz it encompases the fact that it has a hint of pop or rock drumming. If you label "thinking out loud" as instrumental rock, then you will have to label all the albums done by Kenny G, George Benson, Norman Brown, etc as instrumental rock. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.68.229.73|99.68.229.73]] ([[User talk:99.68.229.73|talk]]) 02:11, 7 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->▼
::::::::Well, if you put it that way, I'm OK with labelling ''Thinking Out Loud'' as simply smooth jazz and jazz fusion, respectively, because it's a pretty unique album in his discography anyway—at the very least it's the 'softest' one. I still think the drumming and bass work classes it as rock, even in the most distant of ways (since any Western music with drums is basically rock at its purest root), but I'm willing to concede on that one. The rest, however, are all jazz fusion with the usual rock thing going on in the background. And yes, I have listened to some smooth jazz over time—[[Stanley Jordan]] and [[Lee Ritenour]] come to mind, although I'm much more of a fusion man myself. So is that settled, then? As in, going back to the list above, excluding ''Thinking Out Loud''. [[User:Mac Dreamstate|Mac Dreamstate]] ([[User talk:Mac Dreamstate|talk]]) 02:23, 7 July 2010 (UTC)▼
:::::::::The thing about putting jazz fusion & progressive rock means that you're leaning him over more in the rock spectrum. Jazz fusion has rock in it so it makes it seem that the albums are more rock oriented. That's not true though because they are right in the middle of the fusion spectrum. So if you put down instrumental rock then you will have to put down jazz, because a few of the albums are more jazz/jazz-pop/smooth jazz oriented. If you were to ask Gambale himself, he would say that his playing style reflects more of the jazz/fusion spectrum(with a few exceptions on 1 or 2 albums). When labeling Jeff Beck, then you'd label him as rock/fusion. Gambale would be jazz/fusion. They both play fusion, yet Beck is more rock, while Gambale is more jazz. Try just listening to the chords of the music. Gambale uses a lot of chords and has more of a swing feel, but Beck doesn't use that many chords and plays more like a rock dude by playing the same note redundantly and sustanes notes way more than Gambale ever would. I don't think you could label Beck & Gambale as the same thing. Gambale is far too jazzy. P.S. Did you watch the Holdsworth video. Frank represents the jazz/fusion while Jeff represents the rock/fusion. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.68.229.73|99.68.229.73]] ([[User talk:99.68.229.73|talk]]) 02:31, 7 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->▼
::::::::::If you were to label Jeff Beck as Jazz Fusion/Instrumental rock, then I would have no problem. Yet Gambale is far too jazzy. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.68.229.73|99.68.229.73]] ([[User talk:99.68.229.73|talk]]) 02:34, 7 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->▼
:::::::::::Hey, dude check out how the albums are labeled now. I think they are perfect. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.68.229.73|99.68.229.73]] ([[User talk:99.68.229.73|talk]]) 02:36, 7 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->▼
::::::::::::Regarding leaning him over into certain spectrums, that's far from what I'm doing. By having jazz fusion and instrumental rock, one after the other, I'm merely describing the two fundamental genres into which his work can be classified—the first of which should indicate the most prominent style, and the other perhaps not as much but is still present. If others start thinking of Gambale as some shred rock guitarist just because they see the word "rock", then that is their problem and they are free to make that preconception. It's not the fault of instrumental rock itself. Those in the know will know better and not be swayed by its inclusion, because it could mean something like ''Wired'', ''The Great Explorers'' or even ''Surfing with the Alien''. One should let the listener make their own mind up by providing both genres to describe the music.<br><br>So in the case of around 80% of Gambale's albums, I had naturally placed jazz fusion ahead of instrumental rock because of reasons I've already discussed. They are primarily comprised of jazz fusion, but also contain the basis of instrumental rock as well—especially when Gambale chooses not to play in such a jazzy style (i.e. more straightforward moments like "High 5"). This whole Gambale/Beck/rock/fusion argument can be applied to various other groups or musicians, such as Rush/Genesis or Mariah Carey/Whitney Houston. Is it progressive rock or pop rock? R&B, pop or hip hop? I say it's just better to include at least the two most prominently descriptive genres present in the music. It satisfies everyone that way.<br><br>And yes, I had seen that Holdsworth video before (in addition to his REH instructional video), but the artists themselves are often not the best indicators of what they actually play—i.e. Lemmy from Motörhead claims to play just "rock n' roll", but it's obvious to any fan that the band plays heavy metal. So whilst Holdsworth claims to lean more towards to jazz in his playing alone, there is a lot of rock stuff going on in the background and foreground in each of his solo albums. The straightforward solo in the ''Atavachron'' title track, for instance, could almost be straight out of an 1980s guitar album. The distorted chords intro to ''Metal Fatigue'' is probably the heaviest thing he's ever done. Many of his songs containing vocals (at least with Paul Williams) have a pretty basic rock blueprint behind them, with Holdsworth laying on the jazz solos in his own way.<br><br>Going back to Gambale, though—yes, I'm happy with how they are labelled now. It's the best of both worlds, and I'm in agreement if you are. I just regret that it had to go this far in the first place! Perhaps you should consider creating a Wikipedia account so that you can participate in editing more efficiently in the future. It'll make it easier for you to join in with talk pages if any similar disagreements arise along your travels. [[User:Mac Dreamstate|Mac Dreamstate]] ([[User talk:Mac Dreamstate|talk]]) 03:10, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
==Post-bop==
▲:::::::I think the main album that needs to be fixed is the thinking out loud album. That album is smooth jazz with a hint of fusion. If you think that the pop/rock drums qualify it for instrumental rock, then you're wrong. You should try listening to more smooth jazz. All smooth jazz has that type of drum sound. This doesn't mean that when labeling smooth jazz albums that you should put down instrumental rock. It's just smooth jazz. When you state smooth jazz it encompases the fact that it has a hint of pop or rock drumming. If you label "thinking out loud" as instrumental rock, then you will have to label all the albums done by Kenny G, George Benson, Norman Brown, etc as instrumental rock. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.68.229.73|99.68.229.73]] ([[User talk:99.68.229.73|talk]]) 02:11, 7 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Hello, here are some albums that Frank has participated on that are labeled with "post-bop".
▲::::::::Well, if you put it that way, I'm OK with labelling ''Thinking Out Loud'' as simply smooth jazz and jazz fusion, respectively, because it's a pretty unique album in his discography anyway—at the very least it's the 'softest' one. I still think the drumming and bass work classes it as rock, even in the most distant of ways (since any Western music with drums is basically rock at its purest root), but I'm willing to concede on that one. The rest, however, are all jazz fusion with the usual rock thing going on in the background. And yes, I have listened to some smooth jazz over time—[[Stanley Jordan]] and [[Lee Ritenour]] come to mind, although I'm much more of a fusion man myself. So is that settled, then? As in, going back to the list above, excluding ''Thinking Out Loud''. [[User:Mac Dreamstate|Mac Dreamstate]] ([[User talk:Mac Dreamstate|talk]]) 02:23, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
▲:::::::::The thing about putting jazz fusion & progressive rock means that you're leaning him over more in the rock spectrum. Jazz fusion has rock in it so it makes it seem that the albums are more rock oriented. That's not true though because they are right in the middle of the fusion spectrum. So if you put down instrumental rock then you will have to put down jazz, because a few of the albums are more jazz/jazz-pop/smooth jazz oriented. If you were to ask Gambale himself, he would say that his playing style reflects more of the jazz/fusion spectrum(with a few exceptions on 1 or 2 albums). When labeling Jeff Beck, then you'd label him as rock/fusion. Gambale would be jazz/fusion. They both play fusion, yet Beck is more rock, while Gambale is more jazz. Try just listening to the chords of the music. Gambale uses a lot of chords and has more of a swing feel, but Beck doesn't use that many chords and plays more like a rock dude by playing the same note redundantly and sustanes notes way more than Gambale ever would. I don't think you could label Beck & Gambale as the same thing. Gambale is far too jazzy. P.S. Did you watch the Holdsworth video. Frank represents the jazz/fusion while Jeff represents the rock/fusion. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.68.229.73|99.68.229.73]] ([[User talk:99.68.229.73|talk]]) 02:31, 7 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
▲If you were to label Jeff Beck as Jazz Fusion/Instrumental rock, then I would have no problem. Yet Gambale is far too jazzy. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.68.229.73|99.68.229.73]] ([[User talk:99.68.229.73|talk]]) 02:34, 7 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
http://www.allmusic.com/album/beneath-the-mask-r157881
▲::::::::::Hey, dude check out how the albums are labeled now. I think they are perfect. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.68.229.73|99.68.229.73]] ([[User talk:99.68.229.73|talk]]) 02:36, 7 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
http://www.allmusic.com/album/eye-of-the-beholder-r158495
http://www.allmusic.com/album/inside-out-r158972 --- probably one of the only Elektric Band albums that I believe is truly post-bop/fusion
http://www.allmusic.com/album/light-years-r159246
http://www.allmusic.com/album/to-the-stars-r704042 --- another album that I agree as post-bop/fusion.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0eg6reFPb8AJ:jazzonlyjazz.blogspot.com/2010/04/chick-corea-elektric-band-ii-paint.html+chick+corea+elektric+band+inside+out+post+bop&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XuAsS_JNh0kJ:www.beyondchron.org/news/index.php%3Fitemid%3D5208+chick+corea+elektric+to+the+stars+out+post+bop&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
To me, Inside Out and To the Stars are the only true post-bop/fusion albums. I took a jazz class a couple years ago and in our book it discussed how Inside Out was more post-bop than jazz-rock.
Personally, I feel that labelling Frank with post-bop is kind of weird and wrong. Considering that you labeled Petrucci with these types of sourcings, it kind of MAKES ME HAVE to label everyone on my watch list this way. So, I guess if an artist plays on an album that is jazz/rock/classical, this artist must be labelled as jazz/rock/classical???[[User:Sprecher|Sprecher]] ([[User talk:Sprecher|talk]]) 04:06, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
:Not to be rude, but if that's an issue you strongly have, in this particular case it's nobody else's problem but yours; it doesn't seem to have bothered anybody else. I have no idea about Gambale and his venturings/non-venturings into post-bop (I'll just trust what you've written, since it is reliably sourced), other than that it has absolutely nothing to do with [[John Petrucci|Petrucci]] himself having played guitar in a modern jazz fusion style with [[Liquid Tension Experiment]] and [[Jordan Rudess]]. This article is about Gambale and not Petrucci, so try to think about what's best '''for this article''' instead of worrying about another. [[User:Mac Dreamstate|Mac Dreamstate]] ([[User talk:Mac Dreamstate|talk]]) 10:48, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
::So for example: if a person plays on an album that is free jazz/post-bop, does that then mean that we have to put free jazz & post-bop in the artist's info-box? That's all I want to know, because considering you labeled fusion for Petrucci (he participated on an albums labeled as metal/rock/fusion), then would Frank have to be labeled with post-bop (since he participated on albums labeled as fusion/post-bop)? I just hope you understand what I am trying to say. I'm just not sure on whether these are the rules Wikipedia has on labeling artists.
::P.s. A while ago we were discussing how allaboutjazz.com labels a lot of their fusion albums as "fusion/progressive rock". I contacted the fusion editor and this is what he said:
::"Fusion/progressive rock means not both, but 'or'...we already have a great number of categories, so we lump some in together, and these are two that have some historical connection and intersection.
::As someone who writes about prog as well, I'm less worried about category and just happy that I'm allowed to write about it at a jazz site at all!" [[User:Sprecher|Sprecher]] ([[User talk:Sprecher|talk]]) 02:58, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
:::I, too, am unsure of Wikipedia's rules about lumping individual artists on an album under a bunch of genres on their own articles. I just use instinct and what my ears tell me, as well as concrete sources. In Petrucci's case, '''all bandmembers''' on the Liquid Tension Experiment albums could be considered to have played in a jazz fusion style, among others. Their aim, collectively, was to do some kind of crazy blend of metal, rock and fusion. In Gambale's case, while he has indeed played on albums where Chick Corea has done the post-bop thing, you have to ask yourself: has '''he himself''' played his own instrument—the guitar—in a post-bop style? That's for you to decide and take the initiative. If you don't think he has played in that style, even though he participated with others who did, then don't add the genre. When it comes to something as subjective and wide-ranging as music, as well as artists who are stylistically worlds apart like Petrucci and Gambale, there is no one-size-fits-all deal. One has to look at what and how they're playing on an individual basis. [[User:Mac Dreamstate|Mac Dreamstate]] ([[User talk:Mac Dreamstate|talk]]) 04:06, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
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