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== Buddhism in Ancient Egypt?==
There are all kinds of assumptions and guess-work in this wiki page about the possibility that a form of Buddhism was either practised, or a highly influential undercurrent in ancient Egypt at various periods of history. The sources indicated in the article however, are extremely weak or not at all fully explored or researched when one checks the page references. Footnotes are few, but I did take the time to check them, and both books mentioned are old scholarship ( 1920s -- 1950s) and the information in them is sketchy at best. Anyone want to check closer? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/211.185.187.77|211.185.187.77]] ([[User talk:211.185.187.77#top|talk]]) 08:40, 6 September 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Also, the following paragraph is a non sequitur -- it makes no sense. None of the conclusions reached connect in any way to the assumed original 'evidence', cause or pivotal events -- I won't edit it out of the page, but what do others think?
"Indian gravestones from the Ptolemaic period have been found in Alexandria in Egypt.[53] The presence of Buddhists in Alexandria at this time is important, since "It was later in this very place that some of the most active centers of Christianity were established".[54]" <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/211.185.187.77|211.185.187.77]] ([[User talk:211.185.187.77#top|talk]]) 08:46, 6 September 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
==Philosophical Influences in East Asia==
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Should use instead one of the coins which has "BODDO" on it in Greek letters... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 16:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
:Here's one. Cheers '''[[User:Per Honor et Gloria|<
::I like the "BODDO" because the vast majority of English-speakers aren't going to be able to read any ancient inscriptions in Indic languages, and woudn't find most ancient Greek coin inscriptions to be at all clearly understandable -- yet "BODDO" is very easy to read, and has a simple meaning that doesn't require much explanation ("BODDO"=Buddha). It's visually striking evidence for ancient Mediterranean-Indian connections... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 22:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
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Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 07:13, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
== The article doesnt make any sense and should be either renamed to ''Buddhism in Gandhara region'', merged or deleted ==
The article title seem to be implying that greek philosophy influenced buddhism some how but the article clear fails to make a case for it, mostly the article implies some greeks became devotees and spread buddhism, this doesnt in any way reflect greek philosophical influence on buddhism, there are also many iranian buddhists who actively took part in spread of buddhism, while these achievements can be mentioned in buddhism article, it should not be made into separate article which imposes some region centric article which seem to give false impression that somehow greek or persian philosophies influenced buddhism. i suggest this article to be either merged with greco-buddhist art, renamed as Buddhism in Gandhara region or should be deleted as it serves no purpose. [[User:Rameezraja001|Rameezraja001]] ([[User talk:Rameezraja001|talk]]) 13:49, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
:This isn't very coherent. The article is pretty clear as to what it covers. I realize any suggestion of European influence on India is anathema to you, but that's just your POV. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 14:03, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
== Merger with Gandharan Buddhism ==
{{Discussion top|result=To '''not''' merge given sufficient difference in scope. [[User:Klbrain|Klbrain]] ([[User talk:Klbrain|talk]]) 18:01, 26 February 2022 (UTC)}}
Both this article and [[Gandharan Buddhism]] essentially cover the same topic. It may be useful to create a single article. Please share your thoughts. (Unsigned, by [[User:KashKarti]] - PLEASE learn how to sign! [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 02:43, 12 November 2021 (UTC))
:''Are'' they the same? From what I gather, Greco-Buddhism developed in Bactria and Gandhara, which are two distinct regions. Information on Buddhism in Bactria seems sparse, so I admit I'm a bit at a loss here. [[User:Invokingvajras|Invokingvajras]] ([[User talk:Invokingvajras|talk]]) 2:24, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
:No, the scope of the two articles seems different, [[Gandharan Buddhism]] being more restricted geographically. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> Pat</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 21:03, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
{{Discussion bottom}}
== Criticism of the Concept should be removed or edited. ==
The section at the bottom seems to suggest that there is controversy surrounding the idea that this cultural exchange even took place. The fact of the matter is that there were Greeks living in Gandhara (as a result of the wars of Alexander and the actions of the Persians) that should be considered locals. It was a collaboration between those Greeks and the others who called Gandhara home that resulted in Greco-Buddhism.
Of the two sources mentioned: Hanink cites Falser, but mistakes the meaning of the Falsers writing. Among other things, Falsers work suggests that calling the result of that cultural exchange "Graeco" first and "Buddhist" second indicates a European/Greek essence influencing Asia. Falser gives plenty of examples of the inherent biases of the British colonizers who coined the phrase. [[User:RoadwithCypress|RoadwithCypress]] ([[User talk:RoadwithCypress|talk]]) 21:20, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
:(1) I think NPOV requires us to acknowledge the existence of criticism, so the "edited" option would be the better one. Hanink's claim that no cultural exchange took place at all is clearly ludicrous and might be eliminated as fringe, but it sounds like Falser's point that the concept was framed in biased manner is not fringe. It sounds like you are in the best position to fix this section, since you are already familiar with what Hanink and Falser say.
:(2) It is currently a very short section; is there perhaps somewhere within the article where this information would fit better? [[User:Furius|Furius]] ([[User talk:Furius|talk]]) 01:03, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
::(3) Thanks for bringing this up! :) [[User:Furius|Furius]] ([[User talk:Furius|talk]]) 01:03, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
== Problematic title ==
As has been already pointed out by others, the title "Greco-Buddhism" is somewhat problematic. Most reliable sources only use it as an adjective, as in "Greco-Buddhist art" or "Greco-Buddhist exchange". The idea of an overarching phenomenon of "Greco-Buddhism", on the other hand, is speculative and may have actually originated here (see the [[Talk:Greco-Buddhism#SYNTH_risk_needs_attention|remark]] of [[User:Sleety_Dribble|Sleety_Dribble]]).
The issue is also brought up by a very recent source (Olga Kubica, Greco-Buddhist relations in the Hellenistic Far East, 2023, p. 4): "It is worth adding that it has long been customary among the few people, who have any awareness of the topic of the Greco-Buddhist relations in antiquity, to use the inadequate term Greco-Buddhism, coined by analogy to Greco-Buddhist art of Gandhara. The term Greco-Buddhism denotes the supposed cultural syncretism between Classical Greek culture and Buddhism. However, this term cannot be applied here, because religious or philosophical syncretism in fact denotes a reconciliation or union of differing systems of belief, which does not occur here. Buddhism emerged much earlier than the beginning of Greek domination in Bactria and Northwest India, it was subject to various influences, and even if some elements can be explained by the Greek influence, still, the balance should be maintained and the Greek element in Buddhism should not be overestimated in exuberant terminology."
This actually reads as if it is directly adressed towards the definition and terminology given in this article.
--[[Special:Contributions/2A02:8108:46BF:D875:4441:C854:C92C:8413|2A02:8108:46BF:D875:4441:C854:C92C:8413]] ([[User talk:2A02:8108:46BF:D875:4441:C854:C92C:8413|talk]]) 17:35, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
:In fact, so far I have not been able to find any sources that would support @[[User:Johnbod|Johnbods]] statement above that ''"Greco-Buddhism", mostly "Greco-Buddhist art", most certainly is "a thing", with plenty of books on the subject, using a variety of terms.'' There are plenty of books on "Greco-Buddhist art", some of which use "Gandhara art" or similar terms as synonyms, but that has its [[Greco-Buddhist art|own article]] and is not the subject here. The subject of ''this ''article, the concept of "Greco-Buddhism" as a noun, however, seems to appear nowhere outside of Wikipedia nor does any reliable source claim that there was a "cultural syncretism" beyond the artistic realm. The only exception would be [https://archive.org/details/faithphilosophyo0000bhas/page/196/mode/2up Bhaskar (2009)], who is cited in the article but seems of doubtful reliability since none of the sources he gives on p. 202 would match. The title and initial definition of the article are therefore highly likely to violate [[WP:OR]].
:--[[Special:Contributions/2A02:8108:46BF:D875:4441:C854:C92C:8413|2A02:8108:46BF:D875:4441:C854:C92C:8413]] ([[User talk:2A02:8108:46BF:D875:4441:C854:C92C:8413|talk]]) 23:10, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
::Phooey, [https://www.google.com/search?q=Greco-Buddhism+&client=firefox-b-e&sca_esv=592900765&ei=l5yEZa39Oq6YhbIPtO6C2AY&ved=0ahUKEwjtpLfzq6GDAxUuTEEAHTS3AGsQ4dUDCBA&oq=Greco-Buddhism+&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiD0dyZWNvLUJ1ZGRoaXNtIDIFEAAYgAQyBBAAGB4yBBAAGB4yBhAAGB4YCjIEEAAYHjIEEAAYHjIEEAAYHjIIEAAYBRgeGA8yCBAAGAcYHhgPMgsQABiABBiKBRiGA0j1PFDDE1jYJnADeAGQAQCYAXqgAZUCqgEDMi4xuAEMyAEA-AEBwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA8ICCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECwgIGEAAYBxgewgIHEAAYgAQYDcICChAAGAUYBxgeGA_iAwQYACBBiAYBkAYI&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#ip=1 see this search]. But maybe move to [[Greco-Buddhist culture]] - [https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Greco-Buddhist+culture%22&client=firefox-b-e&sca_esv=592900765&biw=1600&bih=743&ei=452EZf3mI62khbIPx9aeyAE&ved=0ahUKEwi95MeRraGDAxUtUkEAHUerBxkQ4dUDCBA&oq=%22Greco-Buddhist+culture%22&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGCJHcmVjby1CdWRkaGlzdCBjdWx0dXJlIjIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAFIuidQlgxYhxZwAXgBkAEAmAGRAaAB1wGqAQMxLjG4AQzIAQD4AQHCAgoQABhHGNYEGLADwgIIEAAYgAQYogTiAwQYACBBiAYBkAYI&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#ip=1? google search]. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 20:21, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
:::My understanding of [[WP:RS]] is that we would need reliable sources from the relevant scholarly field, in this case religious or cultural history, that support the statement "Greco-Buddhism is the cultural syncretism between Hellenistic culture and Buddhism, which developed between the 4th century BCE and the 5th century CE in Gandhara". The article lists 4 sources for that statement, 3 of which do not even use the term Greco-Buddhism and are purely concerned with syncretic developments in art. The fourth mentions in passing "Greek colonists in the domain adopted the Indian Buddhism and syncretized it with aspects of their own culture to make a sect called Greco-Buddhism", without any further references to support this claim. On the other hand, a recent scholarly work on Greco-Buddhist relations in the area calls the term "inadequate" because it overestimates the Greek influence and suggests a syncretism that did not occur. We should only use a term if we can verify it is the established vocabulary in the scholarly field - that is our [[WP:BURDEN]], for which a Google search - with all due respect - simply does not match the standard of quality.
:::--[[Special:Contributions/2A02:8108:46BF:D875:81BA:A304:3113:10BE|2A02:8108:46BF:D875:81BA:A304:3113:10BE]] ([[User talk:2A02:8108:46BF:D875:81BA:A304:3113:10BE|talk]]) 21:02, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
::::I've given a suggestion as to what to do; what's yours? [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 22:19, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
:::::I went through most of the sources listed in the article's bibliography and some other. From what I gather, there is an overlap of terminology issues and content issues here.
:::::Terminology-wise, the only instance of "Greco-Buddhism" (besides Kubica's recent criticism) appears in [https://www.academia.edu/5974580/When_the_Greeks_Converted_the_Buddha_Asymmetrical_Transfers_of_Knowledge_in_Indo-Greek_Cultures Halkias (2014)], p. 106, mentioning the need for further study. McEvilley (2004), p. 368, is the only one mentioning "Greco-Buddhist culture" for Gandhara. I strongly suspect that McEvilley's book was the main source on which this article originally built and (synth-)named. Otherwise, only "Greco-Buddhist art" is ever mentioned, which goes back to [[iarchive:lartgrcobouddh02foucuoft|Foucher (1951)]]. However, it very specifically refers to the art made in Gandhara during the Kushan empire.
:::::Content-wise, there is obviously some discussion on whether the artistic influence corresponds with an intellectual influence on Gandharan Buddhism. McEvilley (2004), pp. 374-376 speculates that "like the Gandharan art style, the Gandharan Buddhist style must have had a prominent Hellenic factor. [...] It may, in other words, have been a Greek-influenced and Greek-carried form of Buddhism that passed north and east along the Silk Road." His main theory is that there was continuous intellectual exchange since Alexander's conquest which eventually led to this Hellenistic form of Buddhism in Gandhara that would form the basis for Mahayana Buddhism. In this regard, he builds upon older speculation on Mahayana being inherently "Greek" presented by [https://archive.org/details/historyofindianbuddhismetiennelamotte_869_S/page/387/mode/2up Lamotte (1958 [1988<nowiki>]</nowiki>)] and [[iarchive:prajnapramitaliteratureedwardconze_202003_410_Y/page/n7/mode/2up|Conze (1960 [1978])]]. McEvilley's model has been met with scepticism by other scholars (see [https://philpapers.org/rec/KEAICT Kearns (2004)], [https://www.jstor.org/stable/20106911 Allen (2005)], [https://www.proquest.com/docview/216885947?sourcetype=Scholarly%20Journals Rasmussen (2006)]). Other sources on Gandharan buddhism, specifically Salomon (2018, [[iarchive:ancientbuddhists0000salo/mode/2up|1999]]) do not seem to regard the Greek thought to be particularly prominent and also see not much evidence for influence on Mahayana.
:::::Under WP:NPOV we should obviously only present the debate without taking sides, but we cannot do that under a term that clearly relies on one opinion. The neutral term under which to discuss the Hellenic influence would be "[[Gandharan Buddhism]]" here, which already has its own article. A proposed merger was rejected a while ago by @[[User:Klbrain|Klbrain]] and @[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|पाटलिपुत्र]] on the grounds of different geographic scope. It is true that this article goes somewhat beyond Gandhara, but Gandhara is the only region for which a phenomenon that ''could '' be called "Greco-Buddhism" or "Greco-Buddhist culture" has even been proposed. If one wants to keep the scope of the article as it is, the title and lead should be changed to something NPOV, like "Greco-Buddhist cultural exchange" or "Cultural interactions between Ancient Greece and Buddhism". [[Special:Contributions/2A02:8108:46BF:D875:81BA:A304:3113:10BE|2A02:8108:46BF:D875:81BA:A304:3113:10BE]] ([[User talk:2A02:8108:46BF:D875:81BA:A304:3113:10BE|talk]]) 14:09, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
::::::Since there has been no further input by anyone, I have revised the lead-in of this article to better reflect that "Greco-Buddhism" is not a term that is well established in the scholarly literature and that the underlying idea of a cultural syncretism is not supported either. See Dietz (2007): "...seems to indicate that there was no noticeable Greek influence on Buddhism" (p. 56) and "Whereas Greek influence on Buddhism in Gandhara seems to have been minimal, the Gandharan art in fact represents a Graeco-Buddhist synthesis" (p. 58).
::::::There remain the issues that a) the article is named for a non-mainstream opinion and that b) it has some redundancies with [[Gandharan Buddhism]] (which would probably be the better place to present all this).
::::::--[[Special:Contributions/2A02:8108:46BF:D875:44DE:D812:8C3:7BF8|2A02:8108:46BF:D875:44DE:D812:8C3:7BF8]] ([[User talk:2A02:8108:46BF:D875:44DE:D812:8C3:7BF8|talk]]) 15:56, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::::@[[User:Theworks84|Theworks84]] Since you reverted the changes I made: I would normally agree with you that criticism to a concept should be dealt with in a specific section, but in this case the term "Greco-Buddhism" itself is not used in the literature and probably owes much of its popularity to this Wikipedia article. The only proper source to support the "syncretism" definition is Kubicka (2023), who is then directly critizising it for being historically inaccurate. I would strongly argue for making that clear directly in the introduction, since otherwise we would continue to establish a controversial term for a controversial (or rather, fringe) theory, which violates both WP:OR and WP:NPOV.
:::::::That aside, the version you reverted back to is in any case problematic because the sources do not actually support the definition given. It would therefore be wiser to further improve from my version onwards, since it at least has the citations in place.
:::::::--[[Special:Contributions/2A02:8108:46BF:D875:44DE:D812:8C3:7BF8|2A02:8108:46BF:D875:44DE:D812:8C3:7BF8]] ([[User talk:2A02:8108:46BF:D875:44DE:D812:8C3:7BF8|talk]]) 07:49, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
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