Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities
of the Wikipedia reference desk.
Main page: Help searching Wikipedia
How can I get my question answered?
- Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
- Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
- Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
- Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
- Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
- Note:
- We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
- We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
- We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
- We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.
How do I answer a question?
Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines
- The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.
August 25
People of African American And Jewish Descent vs People Of African American And Christian Decent
I am seeking information regarding Jewish African Americans and Christian African Americans and the relationship's between both peoples. Where should I start? TerahLugano (talk) 02:20, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- Jewish populations are isolated enough that they can be identified genetically. Christian populations are not. Genetically, there is no such thing as "Christian descent". <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 03:31, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- The only Jewish black African group that can be called a people that I am aware of is Beta Israel, but no or very few people from that group ended up in America. People captured in Africa, transported to the Americas and sold as slaves, were not of Christian or Jewish faith. Even if some were, they would have been unable to practice their faith during slavery, and the memory of it would not have been passed on to their descendants but have been erased. Inasmuch as their descendants in the US are Christian or Jewish today, this is due to their or their ancestors' conversion (on American soil), or to interracial marriage, both largely only after the abolition of slavery. Sammy Davis Jr. was a Jewish African American, but he was not of Jewish descent. --Lambiam 06:23, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- Some were Muslim (see Moors Sundry Act of 1790, Bilali Document), and some taken from the Kingdom of Kongo might have been Christians. AnonMoos (talk) 08:03, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- "Jewish descent" makes more sense than "Christian descent". In terms of African-American Jews, there are a few categories: black people who have converted to Judaism as individuals (e.g. Andre Tippett), African-Americans who are members of black Jewish sects which don't descend from the mainstream Jewish population (see Black Hebrew Israelites), and people of mixed African-American/Jewish descent. Additionally, as per Lambian, there are some African groups that have or claim Jewish descent, some of whom are recognised by some or many other Jews, most notably the Beta Israel but also the Abayudaya (Uganda), House of Israel (Ghana), Igbo Jews (Nigeria), Jews of Bilad el-Sudan, Lemba people (Southern Africa) and Qemant people (Ethiopia).Some articles you may be interested in: African-American Jews, Black Judaism, and the articles in Category:African-American Judaism. BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:02, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
Side-note, the word "decent" appears in the header, but this term is not mentioned in the OP's question itself. The OP also doesn't really specify any time-frame for the question. --Soman (talk) 11:00, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- The OP obviously mean "descent". That could be corrected. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:20, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- One place to start would be to review the history of Ethiopia, which has had both a native Christian and native Jewish population since antiquity. Blueboar (talk) 11:30, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- ...but the notion of African identity of Ethiopians is contended (albeit, this has changed somewhat in recent decades). The OP asks about relations between Jewish African Americans and Christian African Americans, which is further complicated by the debate on whether recent migrants from Africa to the US classify as or identify as African Americans (from wiki article African Americans: "According to U.S. Census Bureau data, African immigrants generally do not self-identify as African American"). So looking at Jewish-Christian relations within African American communities, there are a few studies on this https://www.jstor.org/stable/30041968 , https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv12pnqmk , but this is overshadowed by a larger body of literature on African American-Jewish relations globally in the contexts of slavery and civil rights movement. --Soman (talk) 13:21, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- More specifically, there are notable people who are simultaneously of Jewish and African American descent, for example Lisa Bonet or Lenny Kravitz (who were married to each other for a time), and MANY African Americans are practicing Christians, and have parents that were as well. --Jayron32 13:50, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
Slavery listings
Greetings,
In near future I wish to begin a review process of information gap areas in relation to all articles under topic of slavery. As initial part of this exercise I would like to know if any 'list articles' are already existing in any of following areas
- List of source locations of slaves
- List of Slave trade routes
- list of Slave trading townships
- list of Specific market locations in townships or trade centers
- List of monuments dedicated to slavery
- List of museums fully or partially dedicated to history of slavery
Personally I am myself was never keen on genre of list articles up til now. (So frankly I do not know how to search a list among many already existing) so may be any lists exists against above mentioned topics and I do not know, hence seeking help here.
Thanks,
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias are for expanding information and knowledge' (talk) 05:47, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- Category:Slavery memorials would help with the last two, and more broadly Category:Slavery would be a good place to start exploring Wikipedia's content on slavery. --Jayron32 11:50, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
where would I find an article on all the different chemicals used in the Vietnam war?
If I was to look for a article on the different chemicals used in the Vietnam war, where would I find said article? Palmtreegames (talk) 16:41, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- Here is a pretty good one. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 16:56, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- It wouldn't be a comprehensive list, but many of the chemicals used during the Vietnam war were defoliants and other herbicides. The article Rainbow Herbicides covers many of these. --Jayron32 17:54, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
August 26
Question about Duchy of Modena and Reggio
The article on the Duchy of Modena and Reggio lists Frignano as part of its territory. This seems implausible given how far away it is from Modena, and how it was probably part of the Kingdom of Naples/Two Sicilies. Can someone verify this? 70.175.192.217 (talk) 02:23, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- There is a historical and geographical region, also named "Frignano", which like the historical provinces Modena and Reggio is located in what today is Emilia-Romagna. See it:Frignano (territorio). The name is preserved in the name of the town Pavullo nel Frignano, about 40 kilometres (25 mi) south of the city of Modena. --Lambiam 06:12, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- I will note that, while not true in this case, being discontiguous, often by some long distance, is NOT uncommon in medieval polities like this. Consider, for example, this map of the Holy Roman Empire, showing several states that had lands that were not contiguous. --Jayron32 13:32, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
We have an article Fort Snelling unorganized territory, which is about an unincorporated area in the Minneapolis area which is home to a military installation and Minneapolis–Saint Paul International Airport. The article claims, "Most people resident in the unorganized territory are service members stationed at the barracks at Fort Snelling. ... As of the census of 2000 ... The population is spread out in age with 4.5% from 25 to 44, 33.0% from 45 to 64, and 62.4% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 69 years. Males had a median income of $43,558 versus $0 for females." This doesn't make sense. How could a populated place where most of the population are in the military have a majority of senior citizens as its residents? And assuming that, in fact, this place is home mostly to senior citizens rather than soldiers, then how could the median income of female residents be $0? That would mean that the majority of female residents had zero income. Was Fort Snelling home to an all-male retirement community? The links to the U.S. Census website cited in the article no longer work, so I can't find the underlying data that this information comes from. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:30, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- I would remove the sentence that says "Most people resident in the unorganized territory are service members stationed at the barracks at Fort Snelling." It feels like some random local wrote that based on their impressions, and they were just wrong. It has no reference, and it's dubious based on actual cited sources, so I would remove it. --Jayron32 11:46, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- That would solve one problem, but it would still leave other issues open. If most of the residents were senior citizens, perhaps because a retirement home or community constitutes much of the housing there, one would expect there to be a significant female population, in fact, probably more women than men (since women live longer than men on average). And, in that case, many of the women would presumably have income from Social Security, pensions, etc. and thus the median income of women would have to be greater than zero. Compare the demographics of some places which consist entirely of retirement communities, for example, Sun City, Arizona (79.8% of the population over age 65, median age 75 ... but 100 females for every 69.8 males, and males had a median income of $35,459 versus $26,453 for females). --Metropolitan90 (talk) 13:22, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know. We can't interpret what the data means unless someone else has done it first. We can only report what the Census Bureau has reported. If that's what the Census Bureau says, that's what it says. I will note the data is 20 years out-of-date at this point. If I were you, I'd look for the same data from the 2020 census, which has recently been published, and update it. It briefly notes that the population had dropped from 2000 to 2010 by a factor of 2/3 or so. I don't know what 2020 looks like, but it may be worthwhile to get that data and update the article and get rid of the outdated numbers. --Jayron32 13:25, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- If I'm not mistaken, much of the 2000 census data for every populated place in the U.S. was added by a bot. (See Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Census.) I support getting rid of the outdated numbers, but probably almost every city and town in the U.S. is going to need a data update as well. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 13:53, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- This is true; I'm not sure that there's much stomach for another census bot to mass dump the new numbers in (though it could be done, it was controversial at the time... not sure why, but some people were not happy with it). However, we can make sure that this article has good numbers. --Jayron32 14:42, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- If I'm not mistaken, much of the 2000 census data for every populated place in the U.S. was added by a bot. (See Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Census.) I support getting rid of the outdated numbers, but probably almost every city and town in the U.S. is going to need a data update as well. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 13:53, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know. We can't interpret what the data means unless someone else has done it first. We can only report what the Census Bureau has reported. If that's what the Census Bureau says, that's what it says. I will note the data is 20 years out-of-date at this point. If I were you, I'd look for the same data from the 2020 census, which has recently been published, and update it. It briefly notes that the population had dropped from 2000 to 2010 by a factor of 2/3 or so. I don't know what 2020 looks like, but it may be worthwhile to get that data and update the article and get rid of the outdated numbers. --Jayron32 13:25, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- That would solve one problem, but it would still leave other issues open. If most of the residents were senior citizens, perhaps because a retirement home or community constitutes much of the housing there, one would expect there to be a significant female population, in fact, probably more women than men (since women live longer than men on average). And, in that case, many of the women would presumably have income from Social Security, pensions, etc. and thus the median income of women would have to be greater than zero. Compare the demographics of some places which consist entirely of retirement communities, for example, Sun City, Arizona (79.8% of the population over age 65, median age 75 ... but 100 females for every 69.8 males, and males had a median income of $35,459 versus $26,453 for females). --Metropolitan90 (talk) 13:22, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- Here is the current census page: [1]. It says a population of 322 in 239 households. Only 6.2% over 65, very different from the 2000 figures in the article. The income is by family, not individual. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
What did they pay Afghans to translate in 2001?
Did they pay languages with fewer English speakers more? Did Italy find bilinguists in Italian and an Afghan language, have someone translate an English translation for those who's English isn't good or both? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:43, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- The US government has a concept of "strategic languages", among which Pashto and Dari (the main languages of Afghanistan) are likely to be included. I had an acquaintance who the Department of Defense gave a graduate stipend to, because he was studying literature in another one of those languages, because they wanted to have more people available who they could call on for translations if they had to. They never really asked for much work from him. Once a year or so they would send him a short newspaper article or such to translate, which he duly did, but it seemed like they mostly did that to make sure he was still responsive. I know someone else who was in the Army during the VN era and they sent her to the Defense Language Institute and got her speaking and reading pretty good Vietnamese.
It wouldn't surprise me in the present and future if a lot of translation workload is shifted from humans to machines. Even mass-consumption stuff like Google Translate is quite usable now, and the bleeding edge stuff is supposed to be a lot better. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:2B99 (talk) 03:47, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
- A big advantage of using an Afghan interpreter is that they are also likely to understand the cultural nuances of Afghan society, which outside of big cities has a strong tribal hierarchy. A look at YouTube shows any number of videos by US expats in the UK and vice-versa, who made gaffes because they misread social signals that are different from their home country, and that in two nations that have numerous historic links. Also, there are at least nine languages spoken in Afghanistan.
- In answer to your other question, this video apparently shows Afghan interpreters speaking Italian. I suspect that they might have used English to start with and picked-up Italian on the job. Alansplodge (talk) 13:22, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
- Good point, certainly for interpreters and others working in-country. My friend who studied Vietnamese in the Army never actually went to Vietnam. She worked on a base in the US (or maybe it was Germany or something), handling and translating intelligence info that had been sent from VN. I don't know whether that meant military comms or stuff like press reports. I do remember she told me her unit had a special incinerator and procedures to burn all their sensitive papers if they thought they were about to be captured, lol. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:2B99 (talk) 00:16, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
- The Army taught my uncle Czech, and during the late 1960s and/or early 1970s, he spent time on a base in Germany translating Czech military radio transmissions -- a large part of which were apparently informal communications between low-level reservists temporarily stationed near the border. This may have contributed to someone assembling miscellaneous info into a larger picture, but I don't think my uncle ever knew the higher-level analysis. AnonMoos (talk) 22:07, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
- I read that the military prefers to not have to teach a whole language to an American who wants a translating/interpreting job. But sometimes they can't attract enough bilinguists I guess, even with a draft. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:20, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
"Postes afghanes"
Why did Afghanistan postage stamps have the French inscription "Postes afghanes" for some period, e.g. here? Postage stamps and postal history of Afghanistan says it appeared in 1928, but doesn't explain why. I suspect because French language is relevant to the Universal Postal Union, but not sure. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 21:38, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- You suspect rightDOR (HK) (talk) 05:25, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- Any sources supporting this judgement? --Lambiam 08:26, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know if it is a coincidence, but 1928 was the year the Afghan Civil War broke out, which to a certain extent was also a conflict between a Dari-speaking majority and Pashto-speaking Tajiks. The choice of French may have avoided an otherwise unavoidable appearance of linguistic preference. --Lambiam 08:26, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- "French was the language of diplomacy from the 17th century until the mid-20th century", see List of lingua francas#French. Neither Dari nor Pashtu would be widely understood in the west, and history might have swayed them away from using English (see Anglo-Afghan War). Alansplodge (talk) 14:43, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- At least now, under the Universal Postal Convention, section 6.3.1, postage stamps are required to include the name or abbreviation of the member country or territory of issue, in roman letters. (The UK is exempt from this requirement.) Using only Dari or Pashto or both on stamps might have resulted in delays to the country's international mail because neither of those languages uses the roman alphabet and other countries might have refused to accept the stamps as valid postage. Admittedly, that doesn't explain the choice of French as opposed to any other language using the roman alphabet. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 00:39, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
August 27
So-and-so's law
There is a "somebody's law" a la Murphy's, Parkinson's, etc. that says: if your organization uses some statistic as a metric of performance, then that statistic will come under tremendous pressure of manipulation and cease to be useful for anything. We have an article about it, but I don't remember the title. Anyone know? Thanks. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:2B99 (talk) 04:37, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- Goodhart's law, I believe. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 04:39, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, that's the article I remembered. Thanks! 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:2B99 (talk) 05:58, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- It explains the diarrhea of uninteresting scientific papers due to using the h-index as a measure of impact. --Lambiam 08:08, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, that's the article I remembered. Thanks! 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:2B99 (talk) 05:58, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
Egypt, end of slavery 19th century
Greetings,
- Came across a blog post which refers to the role of a case of a Circassian woman slave named 'Shanigal' in helping Britishers end slavery in Egypt by asking for prosecution/ justice.
- Related sentences in blog post goes as: What finally discredited slavery in Egypt was a prosecution brought by a Circassian slave woman, Shanigal, against her master for raping her. ... Shanigal went to the British authorities to obtained justice, and got it. In doing so, she showed up the massive injustice and hypocrisy towards slavery in the upper and middle classes, with the result that she dealt a major blow against it...
I did google for Shanigal/ Shenigal Egypt but it did not return any results other than said blog post. True that one can not rely on blog posts for accuracy still may be there is some mistake in name spelling or some thing. Is it possible to confirm any such rape prosecution by British authorities in Egypt in 19th century that might have helped issue of slavery effectively ending?
Thanks, Bookku, 'Encyclopedias are for expanding information and knowledge' (talk) 11:08, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- Is this source helpful? The spelling given is Shemsigul: [2]. 59.102.25.192 (talk) 12:06, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks @ 59.102.25.192 , I have already taken note of Shemsigul in my draft article on slavery {{mono|(no doubt spelling of 'Shanigal' sounds a lot similar to 'Shemsigul' and a potent possibility would exist un til further research).But in Shemsigul's case, if I am not mistaken, there seem no mention of involvement of any British officials in providing justice, where as blog post confidently relates case of 'Shanigal' to facilitation of justice by British official and subsequent rooting out of slavery.
- Warm regards Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 05:47, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
- Şemsî is a Turkish word of Arabic origin meaning "related to the Sun", and gül is a Turkish word of Persian origin meaning "rose". It is possible that the name Şemsîgül arose as a Turkification of a Circassian name Shenigal. If the date of 30 June 1854 is correct, Shemsigul cannot have presented her complaint to British officials. Until the British occupation of Egypt in 1882, Egypt was at least nominally under the control of the Ottoman Empire, and even remained so de jure until 1914. --Lambiam 09:58, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- The paper on silo.tips is based on the account in Toledano's book Slavery and Abolition in the Ottoman Middle East. As it is an original translation by Toledano of the report recorded in Ottoman Turkish, it is unlikely that the blog post has a different source for the same story. But the similarities are so extensive (Şemsigül was Circassian too, sold as a slave to the Ottoman Turks and brought to Egypt; her complaint too was that her master raped her, and it was equally remarkable for a slave to bring such a complaint and find redress) that it is almost certain the blog post is a garbled version of the account by Toledano. --Lambiam 10:28, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Idiomatic translation
Hi Folks!! Could somebody give an idiomatic translation for Die Vervolgung von NS-Tätern im geteilten Deutschland. Thanks. Its for the Hans Globe article. scope_creepTalk 12:03, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- The language desk might have more followers who could help you. But is "The persecution of Nazi perpetrators in divided Germany" not what it means? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:27, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- Verfolgung can also mean "pursuit" or "prosecution". This review of the work suggests that "prosecution" (in the legal sense - Strafverfolgung) is the intended meaning. 59.102.25.192 (talk) 12:40, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hi @Baseball Bugs:, that's what I thought it meant. Another editor @NONIS STEFANO: has changed from Persecution to Prosecution. Hi @59.102.25.192:, Prosecution is more accurate? scope_creepTalk 12:53, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Baseball Bugs: Would it be normal to change the title, when the books states it The persecution of Nazi perpetrators in divided Germany It sound odd to me, changing a book title. scope_creepTalk 12:57, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- Is there a source that translates the title? If not, is the book centered on legal trials and convictions of Nazis? If so, it should be "prosecute". The term "persecute" has a similar root to "prosecute" and "pursue" (having to do with "following"), but they have evolved to have distinct meanings in English. I've been amused to see the chase group in the Vuelta a España labeled grupo perseguidor. They're not persecuting the leaders, they're just following (chasing) them. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:19, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Scope creep: I should have put it more forcefully: the German-language review of Ms Weinke's dissertation that I linked to makes it clear that it deals with the criminal prosecution of former Nazis. 59.102.25.192 (talk) 13:29, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- Excellent. Thanks Folks. scope_creepTalk 13:39, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
Denazification? 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:2B99 (talk) 16:50, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- More than half of the German adult population had been involved in keeping the Nazi program running; only for the more egregious crimes was prosecution a practical possibility. Former Nazis who were not prosecuted would still be removed, as part of the denazification effort, from influential positions. So these are not the same thing. --Lambiam 21:19, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
- Denazification would've been a bit stronger if they didn't start worrying about communism after the first few years. Perhaps one of the few silver linings of Nazi nazis is they didn't cause Vietnam/Afghan-level quagmire and GOP-level lie-spreading. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:03, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- Much of the misery perpetrated by the Nazi regime was aided by their official promulgation of the antisemitic stab-in-the-back lie. "Public enlightenment" by the media after the Gleichschaltung under the direction of the Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda under the direction of Goebbels was a pervasive bread-and-butter operation that made it virtually impossible for the German people to discern between the fiction of the Nazi state and reality. In comparison, the disinformation of Breitbart News, Fox, the GOP, Newsmax and One America News combined is child's play. --Lambiam 09:41, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- No endless asymmetric resistance violence though. And forgot to say after losing power, while in power obviously was among the closest a government has ever been to 1948. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:55, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- Much of the misery perpetrated by the Nazi regime was aided by their official promulgation of the antisemitic stab-in-the-back lie. "Public enlightenment" by the media after the Gleichschaltung under the direction of the Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda under the direction of Goebbels was a pervasive bread-and-butter operation that made it virtually impossible for the German people to discern between the fiction of the Nazi state and reality. In comparison, the disinformation of Breitbart News, Fox, the GOP, Newsmax and One America News combined is child's play. --Lambiam 09:41, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- Denazification would've been a bit stronger if they didn't start worrying about communism after the first few years. Perhaps one of the few silver linings of Nazi nazis is they didn't cause Vietnam/Afghan-level quagmire and GOP-level lie-spreading. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:03, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
August 28
Himmler Peace Negotiations
Hello,
I've heard that Himmler tried to negotiate peace with the Allies during World War II, but upon researching it, I haven't been able to find any information on what he was actually offering/suggesting in these talks: is it unknown what he was suggesting to the Allies, have I just missed some information, or is this all not true? If you have any information, I'd be appreciative and happy to hear it.
Thank you,
User:Heyoostorm_talk! 01:44, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
- You might begin by following up the references cited in our article sub-section Heinrich Himmler#Peace negotiations. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.179.94 (talk) 03:29, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
Catholic/Orthodox saints
Britannica says Mesrop Mashtots is "venerated as a saint in the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Armenian Catholic Church, and in Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches."
That he is a saint of the first two is common knowledge, but I am having a hard time verifying that he's canonized by the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Websites like catholic.org and catholic.net do seem to say/imply that, but he doesn't seem to be in the Roman Martyrology and other lists of Catholic saints. Is there no easy way to check this? ----Երևանցի talk 14:03, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
- Here is an Italian Catholic site citing him: http://www.santiebeati.it/Detailed/41370.html . In the Italian Wikipedia's article about him there are a few hints: "Venerato da tutte le Chiese che ammettono il culto dei santi" = "Venerated by all Churches that admit the cult of saints" & "Dal Martirologio Romano alla data del 17 febbraio: In Armenia, san Mesrop, dottore degli Armeni: discepolo di san Narsete e scrivano nel palazzo reale, divenuto monaco, creò un alfabeto, perché il popolo potesse essere avviato alle sante Scritture, tradusse i due Testamenti e compose inni e altri cantici in lingua armena." = "From the Roman Martyrology to the date of February 17: In Armenia, St. Mesrop, doctor of the Armenians: disciple of St. Narses and scribe in the royal palace, who became a monk, created an alphabet, so that the people could be sent to the Holy Scriptures, translated the two Testaments and composed hymns and other songs in the Armenian language." --95.238.130.59 (talk) 16:38, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
- He died before the churches split apart after the Council of Chalcedon, so if he was a saint before that, he'd still be a saint in all the churches (unless they removed him later). Adam Bishop (talk) 12:35, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
August 29
bnei elohim
what is meaning of the phrase "bnei elohim" in Gen 6:2?..and why has it been translated as "sons of God" in some Hebrew Bibles, and "sons of rulers" in others?..the only other occurrences of this phrase at Job 1:6 and 2:1 seems to be referring to angels..there is clearly support for this interpretation in the Greek New Testament. why then should its presence at Gen 6:2 refer to human sons of Seth, in the Jewish religion? both these translations can't be correct, how is it possible that there can be two interpretations?.see Sons of God Gfigs (talk) 20:10, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
- While אֱלוֹהִים or אֱלֹהִים (ʾélôhím) is grammatically the plural of the common noun אֱלוֹהַּ or אֱלֹהַּ (ʾélôah) meaning "god", it is also a usual term for God in the Hebrew Bible – see Elohim, already occurring as the third word of Genesis 1:1. The Hebrew script has no capital letters to distinguish this use from the plural use, and so the expression בְנֵי־הָאֱלֹהִים is ambiguous: it is not possible to make out on orthographic or grammatical grounds whether the use of אֱלֹהִים is the plural of a word meaning "god" or the usual term we translate as "God". Translators who translate it as "rulers" apparently take it as the plural of the common noun; in that case the choice for this particular translation may have been inspired by the orthodox rejection of a plurality of gods. If the intention is "sons of God", there is no immediate reason to assume that this refers to the same entities in all contexts. Compare the diverse meanings of Son of Man. --Lambiam 20:58, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
- As Lambiam succinctly indicates, the word 'elohim' is capable of many interpretations: and it remains a stumbling stone on the way to understanding the deepest mysteries, if indeed they are capable of comprehension. See also Julius Wellhausen's Prolegomena on archive.org. (free registration required). Beware: there are many, many, many versions of the texts which have come down to us. None are definitive, none are 'original' and all are subject to various theological or scholarly interpretations. They used to burn people alive for disagreeing. MinorProphet (talk) 23:09, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
- its true, religion continues to be a source of violence..and we are ruining the earth..I hope there are friendly ET's out there, who know more than us, can help us. if there is a God, I hope he cares about us, will eliminate suffering.. Gfigs (talk) 04:33, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Lambiam: ,why was the plural elohim translated as "God" in Gen 1:1 ,instead of "Gods", "gods" or "rulers"? if that is how it was written? surely that is not an accurate translation? Gfigs (talk) 06:30, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- does this perhaps recall Laban's Teraphim? maybe that is where the answer also is, with Pluralis excellentiae? Gfigs (talk) 06:43, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- In this verse the term is the subject of the sentence, and the verb בָּרָא (bará) is in the past-tense masculine singular third-person form, so the subject is grammatically not plural. Compare the singular use of the formally plural but grammatically singular proper noun "United States", as used in "The United States is a highly developed country". --Lambiam 07:06, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- this grammar is going way beyond my understanding.. although, think I understand the example of US..thanks Gfigs (talk) 07:32, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- it is so complicated, and difficult to comprehend this idea of spirit life..hope theres someone out there in the universe, who knows the answers, can help us Gfigs (talk) 08:08, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- For someone who accepts the idea that supernatural entities are a creation of human culture, is is not harder to comprehend than the idea of the Marvel Universe. --Lambiam 12:36, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- As Lambiam succinctly indicates, the word 'elohim' is capable of many interpretations: and it remains a stumbling stone on the way to understanding the deepest mysteries, if indeed they are capable of comprehension. See also Julius Wellhausen's Prolegomena on archive.org. (free registration required). Beware: there are many, many, many versions of the texts which have come down to us. None are definitive, none are 'original' and all are subject to various theological or scholarly interpretations. They used to burn people alive for disagreeing. MinorProphet (talk) 23:09, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
- The article Elohist is interesting. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:06, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- If you are interested in this "idea of spirit life", try The Story of My Heart,[3] by Richard Jefferies who grew up near Swindon, Wiltshire, England, not far from where I used to live. The hill on the Wiltshire Downs which he used to climb is visible for miles around , and I have had many visions there. Be of good cheer: all will be revealed in time. MinorProphet (talk) 05:56, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- thanks, will check these out..thanks also Lambiam, for explanation of this Hebrew phrase Gfigs (talk) 07:49, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
August 30
Germany after the capitulation
A user asked this over at the Reference desk on the Finnish Wikipedia:
- Colonel-General Alfred Jodl signed the unconditional capitulation of Germany on 7 May 1945, after which Germany ceased to exist as a state. Suppose the next day Hans gets caught red-handed trying to steal Fritz's bike somewhere in occupied Germany. According to what law is Hans judged? Is German law applied here, even though the German state doesn't exist any more, does the law depend on the state that occupied the territory in question, or do we live in anarchy where Hans's fate is left to the angry public, who might shoot him in the head?
Now I kind of wonder at the "Germany ceased to exist as a state" part. Somehow I doubt Germany as a legal entity would just have been wiped out and replaced by what would essentially have been extensions of France, the UK, the USA and the USSR. What exactly was the situation at that point? JIP | Talk 23:27, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- See Legal status of Germany, Potsdam Agreement, Allied-occupied Germany, Soviet Military Administration in Germany, and Berlin Declaration (1945). "after the gross criminal abuses of Nazism, and in the circumstances of complete defeat, Germany now had no government or central administration and that the vacated civil authority in Germany had consequently been assumed as a condominium of the four Allied Representative Powers on behalf of the Allied Governments overall, an authority later constituted into the Allied Control Council" DuncanHill (talk) 23:47, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- Another good article is Martial law. Immediately after the war, Germany was under martial law; which military had the authority over our erstwhile bike thief Hans depends on which of the occupied zones of control that Hans lived in at the time. As noted above by DuncanHill, the division of Germany into zones of control was already decided ahead of time by the four Allied powers at Potsdam, and martial law was essentially enacted as those powers moved in and took over territory. Of note is that equivalent treatment was NOT a reality among the four zones of control; the Germans living in the east tried desperately to move westward to avoid the advancing Soviet army, which bent on enacting a bit of revenge for their own sufferings at the hands of the Germans, were less interested in "due process" than the other allied powers. German evacuation from Central and Eastern Europe and Soviet war crimes#Germany are good overviews there. --Jayron32 10:58, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- I think from the wording of the OP's question, they are generally already familiar with the details of the continuity of the states themselves, at least in the broad strokes. What they seem to be inquiring about is the form, scope, and doctrinal/jurisdictional foundation of the legal system (or at least the justice system) in post-war Germany. SnowRise let's rap 11:09, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- JIP, the answer to your question depends on the scope of time we are talking about. Before we even get to the post-war era, it is important to understand for context that much of the continuity of German law had already been lost, pre-occupation: first off, the Nazi apparatus had hollowed out much of the resistance in the courts to it's rule (and to it's more controversial powers and policies) systematically, through intimidation and outright reprisals against those voices which did oppose the increasing monopoly on power of the party/the overthrow of democratic processes/the Race Laws and other abrogations of civil rights and due process, and support for that (not by any means small, unfortunately) portion of the legal community and judiciary who were happy to further all or a part of this strategy for increased concentration of state power. Ultimately the administration of new legal order was channeled increasingly through "special courts" and military courts (including of the drumhead court variety), further consolidating the fascist stranglehold on power and diminishing means of effective resistance of a legal sort. These developments also advanced along simultaneous lines in terms of the legislation itself, of course, which is an equally mixed bag of intimidation and outright complicity from those already within the relevant bodies. Add on to all of this the actual obliteration of the supporting infrastructure (state and physical) and massive attrition of personnel in the late and post-war periods, and you get a situation where, but for the occupational forces controlling their immediate spheres of influence, there would have been very little in the way of complete anarchy when it came to criminal conduct.
- Early into Germany's occupation by the allies and their administrative partition of its territories, they had already agreed upon a somewhat unified approach (the Potsdam Agreement) for how to handle reconstruction of Germany, including it's legal system. Of course, in reality, there were great differences of opinion between the Western powers and Russia (and to a much lesser extent, differences between the three Western allies) about the exact form of the state structures and justice systems, reflecting their very different plans for the future of Europe and the disposition of Germany in particular. But in principle, they had a greed on a basic framework for the reconstruction and 'denazification' of German society. This proceeded along numerous state and cultural levels, but needless to say, the legal code was of particular interest in this regard. So the allies set about methodically comparing pre- and post-Nazi era German law, informed further by other contemporary continental Civil Law systems (and just a dash maybe of influence from American and English common law), to recreate the German legal code in a fashion that would not be rejected wholesale by German cultural mores but was also expunged as completely as possible of Nazi influence. Several small armies of lawyers (some German, more occupational, and a not small number German expatriots who could be trusted by their adopted nations) generated the new code from the ground up, which would be adopted by a combination of fiat and eventually codification to varying extent by the nascent East and West German states, each influenced very heavily by the Soviet and West (or, before long, NATO) sponsor states in how justice would ultimately be conceived and administered.
- But in the immediate post-war era, in practice authority for law and order was shared by the local proto-authorities and the occupational military forces. For the first few years, both police forces and courts of the native German variety were meager things with authority often tightly constrained by the exercise of power of the occupational forces: in the portions of Germany under Soviet control, this control was more unified under the military and the elements of the state police that were already being developed under Soviet guidance. In the American, British, and French controlled territories, there tended to be both civilian oversight of reconstruction efforts (foreign ministry/department bureaucracies) and, needless to say, military authority. There was a period towards the beginning of the occupation where the various directives of the occupational forces all converged on a pre-Potsdam policy of shutting what little remained of the courts down, until they could be re-established in a free of even a whiff of influence of the former Nazi state, in terms of both persons and concepts: the special courts and Nazi party courts of course were abolished with no intent of their return in any form. Still, the idea was, in theory, that criminal matters not of direct interest to occupational authorities or to the war crimes processes would be eventually handled by the German courts. In practice, if any of the occupational powers wanted someone to stay in prison for any reason, that party didn't have much recourse to appeal.
- Nevertheless, nominal return of authority to the German courts (along with significant other state apparatuses) got underway by 1947-48. Noteworthy is the fact that this required accepting that former members of the Nazi power would have to be granted some stewardship of the legal system, including the restored judiciary, since they were just too large a statistical portion of the remaining legal experts needed to maintain the courts. This lead to some troubling lasting influences of Nazi ideology and thwarted prosecutions for some violent political crimes conducted by former members of Nazi paramilitary groups: the occupational authorities were known to throw their clout around to get retrials in some of these cases, but it was clear that expunging Nazi ideologies from the legal community would become a somewhat generational matter.
- On a practical note, it's worth adding that, using your hypothetical scenario or anything remotely like it as a the basis for discussion, it's probably fair to say there was no recourse to justice for petty crimes early on: the size of the police forces, their remit of influence, their allowed equipment and the scope of their physical jurisdiction were all very limited and their resources scarce. With murder common, the hunt for Nazi war criminals ongoing, an absolute epidemic of rape across the country, and black market profiteering and corruption everywhere, petty theft would not have been much of priority. That said, you can bet there was a fair deal of street justice incident to thefts much smaller than a bike: rationing was strict and basic resources scarce in major population centers for years following Germany's defeat. The German system would also be called upon to play a significant role in trying those guilty of crimes committed under the Nazi regime: while much of the highest levels of these crimes were prosecuted by the allies under war crimes courts, the vast majority of trials for murders and other violent crimes during the Nazi era would eventually be tried by German courts (although the legal framework applied by these courts could vary between utilizing the national German law and the war crimes standards, allowing for significant influence by the allied authorities) further straining the system. SnowRise let's rap 11:09, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- Even in stable, well-organized states petty crime mostly goes unpunished. Unless someone is caught In flagrante delicto, it is rare for most instances of petty crime to be sorted out. When you report such a crime to police, it gets filed as a report and basically filed away until someone gets caught who they can connect your crime to. For something like someone stealing your bike out of your yard overnight, if no one actually catches them doing so, they aren't going to be caught. --Jayron32 17:37, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- Someone on the Finnish Wikipedia has replied:
- Did Germany cease to exist? As far as I know the government ceased to exist, but a state is more than its government. See here at the English Wikipedia: German Instrument of Surrender.
- That's what I was thinking, just because Germany had no government any more doesn't mean there wasn't a Germany any more. JIP | Talk 03:09, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Germany didn't cease to exist, the German state ceased to exist. There was nothing with any of the characteristics of a state. DuncanHill (talk) 03:27, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
August 31
What questions are on the 2021 Canadian census questionnaire?
I do not reside in Canada and have no intention of attempting to answer the Canadian census of 2021. But I would like to know what questions are asked. It seems surprisingly hard to find out via the web. Where is this information? Michael Hardy (talk) 06:36, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- Is this it?[4] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:53, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- Or this one for the 2021 short-form census: [5] (I think I remember hearing in a previous year that about 4/5 of people got the short form, but even if that was correct, I don't know if it still is in 2021.) --184.144.99.72 (talk) 23:07, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- The rule still applies: 4/5 households receive the short form to complete, and the other one gets the long form. Who gets which form is assigned randomly, but the proportion is maintained at all levels (city blocks, neighborhoods, cities, regions and provinces). It used to be that census takers would go door-to-door to distribute the appropriate form to each household, but in 2021 it was all done on-line: you received a card through the mail asking you to complete the form on-line, and the unique code you were assigned and which you entered upon logging in determined which form you got to fill out. Xuxl (talk) 12:33, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- How does Canada count people without internet access? --Jayron32 16:52, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- See question 3 on this FAQ page [6]. The objective was to have the overwhelming majority of respondents complete the census on-line. For those who did not or could not, they proceeded as in the olden days: enumerators contacted them directly to obtain the required information. From what I read, the response rate was very high, given that almost all Canadians have home internet access [7]. Xuxl (talk) 18:38, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- How does Canada count people without internet access? --Jayron32 16:52, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- The rule still applies: 4/5 households receive the short form to complete, and the other one gets the long form. Who gets which form is assigned randomly, but the proportion is maintained at all levels (city blocks, neighborhoods, cities, regions and provinces). It used to be that census takers would go door-to-door to distribute the appropriate form to each household, but in 2021 it was all done on-line: you received a card through the mail asking you to complete the form on-line, and the unique code you were assigned and which you entered upon logging in determined which form you got to fill out. Xuxl (talk) 12:33, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Or this one for the 2021 short-form census: [5] (I think I remember hearing in a previous year that about 4/5 of people got the short form, but even if that was correct, I don't know if it still is in 2021.) --184.144.99.72 (talk) 23:07, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Taliban members
Hello! I am mostly intrigued by something that perhaps some of you may help me. Has any of you seen old videos on YouTube or elsewhere of the visit by Taliban members to the US (Texas) when Bush was Governor? The visit is on one of Michael Moore's documentaries. My question is, are those members of the Taliban who visited Texas here on Wikipedia with their articles? I don't know their names and I was mostly intrigued whether they are alive and if they continue being members of the Taliban. Kindest regards. CoryGlee (talk) 14:09, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- There's a bunch of good references to be found here. --Jayron32 14:17, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- Mohammad Ghous is said to have led the delegation. --Wrongfilter (talk) 14:24, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Philistines article
Editor has removed material at Special:Diff/1041484366 citing not found in source. As page 202 is not available online, I can not confirm the validity. Hoping someone here has access to the book or can direct me to somewhere that can help.
Killebrew, Ann E. (2005). Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity: An Archaeological Study of Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, and Early Israel, 1300-1100 B.C.E. Atlanta, Georgia: Society of Biblical Literature. ISBN 1-58983-097-0.
- You may also want to look at asking at WP:REX, which is more suited to these sorts of questions. --Jayron32 15:10, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- The book is available at Z-Library. Page 202 says "Although no early Philistine texts or inscriptions have thus far been discovered or conclusively identified,[21] this group's early history is well known...".-gadfium 19:51, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- But see this blog post. Perhaps the statement in our article should read: "As of 2005[update], no early Philistine texts or inscriptions had been discovered or conclusively identified" – although I cannot judge without further examination whether the identification reported in the 2006 article "Cypro-Minoan Inscriptions Found in Ashkelon" in Israel Exploration Journal can be considered conclusive. --Lambiam 21:49, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you, at a minimum, I'll restore and date the statement while seeing if I can find further information on the topic. And Thanks for the REX reminder. Knew we had a page but couldn't remember where. Slywriter (talk) 14:30, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- But see this blog post. Perhaps the statement in our article should read: "As of 2005[update], no early Philistine texts or inscriptions had been discovered or conclusively identified" – although I cannot judge without further examination whether the identification reported in the 2006 article "Cypro-Minoan Inscriptions Found in Ashkelon" in Israel Exploration Journal can be considered conclusive. --Lambiam 21:49, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
September 1
presidential traditions broken by trump
is there an online up-to-date list of presidential traditions broken by trump, which includes his non-release of tax returns and him skipping biden's inauguration 49.149.137.31 (talk) 06:57, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- First there would need to be a List of presidential traditions. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:04, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Not exactly what you're asking for, but see this comprehensive article by The Atlantic: "50 Moments That Define an Improbable Presidency"[8], the moments being largely similar to the "broken traditions" to which the OP refers. It was written half-way through the presidency, though, so one could easily double the list by including the final two years. A job for current and future historians, before everyone forgets. Xuxl (talk) 12:38, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call Trump's presidency "forgettable". He's not going to join the ranks of the Millard Fillmores, the Chester Alan Arthurs or the Zachary Taylors in terms of "who were they" forgetableness. I sense that many Americans will never forget the Trump presidency. Often in the middle of the night. With much screaming. ---Jayron32 18:19, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- The four-year period as a whole won't be forgotten, but some of the specific indignities or transgressions may be if not properly documented. There's already a massive lobby at work denying facts and attempting to make people forget some of what happened. See for example [9]. Xuxl (talk) 18:43, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Meh… Trump now belongs to historians. They will decide what was and was not important about his time in office. And in 20 years, the next generation of historians will re-evaluate and decide that the older historians got it ALL WRONG… and then the generation after that will revise yet again … and so on and so on. Blueboar (talk) 20:31, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- And in 20 years there will still be a cadre of deluded individuals who'll be insisting that Trump did not lose the 2020 election and all the damning evidence will be released "very soon". Such patience is truly admirable. And stupid. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:49, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Meh… Trump now belongs to historians. They will decide what was and was not important about his time in office. And in 20 years, the next generation of historians will re-evaluate and decide that the older historians got it ALL WRONG… and then the generation after that will revise yet again … and so on and so on. Blueboar (talk) 20:31, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- The four-year period as a whole won't be forgotten, but some of the specific indignities or transgressions may be if not properly documented. There's already a massive lobby at work denying facts and attempting to make people forget some of what happened. See for example [9]. Xuxl (talk) 18:43, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call Trump's presidency "forgettable". He's not going to join the ranks of the Millard Fillmores, the Chester Alan Arthurs or the Zachary Taylors in terms of "who were they" forgetableness. I sense that many Americans will never forget the Trump presidency. Often in the middle of the night. With much screaming. ---Jayron32 18:19, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Not exactly what you're asking for, but see this comprehensive article by The Atlantic: "50 Moments That Define an Improbable Presidency"[8], the moments being largely similar to the "broken traditions" to which the OP refers. It was written half-way through the presidency, though, so one could easily double the list by including the final two years. A job for current and future historians, before everyone forgets. Xuxl (talk) 12:38, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
why has no two-term us president skipped their successor's inauguration?
this obviously excludes presidents who died in office during their second term. the closest a two-term us president got to snubbing their successor's inauguration was nixon, who wasn't there during ford's swearing in but did meet him that day and they walked together. other than that, no two-term us president snubbed their successor's inauguration. why? 49.149.137.31 (talk) 07:04, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Why would they? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:25, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
What exactly are the "666 new laws" coming in effect in Texas today?
Numerous news sources are placing that number in their headlines, and I wonder if there's any kind of compiled list I can access — not just the ones of most significance. ± Lenoxus (" *** ") 15:43, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you so much! ± Lenoxus (" *** ") 20:58, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- A further 18 Acts start to come into effect today.[10]. 2A00:23C4:570A:600:1C6E:E484:CCAB:B25D (talk) 16:59, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Drat… having 684 ruins the fun. Blueboar (talk) 17:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Pardon my ignorance, but why is it that so many bills are all coming into effect on the same day? Is this sort of thing a regular occurrence in Texas? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:13, 1 September 2021 (UTC)