Talk:Scarborough, Ontario

Please move this page back

All location articles in Ontario should follow location, Ontario (where ambiguous) per discussions in the past at Wikiproject Canada. Scarborough was only a municipality within the region of Toronto, and it no longer exists whatsoever. We don't have Markham, York Region or Stoney Creek, Hamilton. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 00:01, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

 Done ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:21, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Floydian on the end result, but not on the statement that all municipalities should follow location, Ontario. I would note that although this article should be at Scarborough, Ontario, that isn`t the case for all neighbourhoods or communities. Most neighbourhoods and communities should, in fact, be at location, municipality, with some exceptions for former municipalities such as Scarborough and Stoney Creek (Markham is not a good comparable, because it is still a separate municipality). Please see WP:CANSTYLE#Neighbourhoods/communities for the naming convention. Skeezix1000 (talk) 18:24, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I won t try to rename the page again but disagree with the present naming. These are communities within Toronto now, nothing more officially, despite what they once were. For urban areas, the disambiguate should be the administrative entity immediate above, I think. (I don t think it should be for rural areas, however - contradictory as this viewpoint is.) Mayumashu (talk) 18:46, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Scarborough Junction is a community within Toronto, but Scarborough has ceased to exist as anything but a name recognized by Canada Post. Communities are a different example than incorporated municipalities. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 23:30, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Which is my point - there is no Scarborough, Ontario, so having a page by that name is rather wrong. I disagree that Scarborough ceases to exist as a commnunity however, for people who live there, for one, will still refer to living in quote on quote Scarborough. This is why I think the page should be named 'Scarborough, Toronto' Mayumashu (talk) 09:07, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

"Scarborough, Ontario" follows the "most commonly used/recognisable name in English" convention usually used to name pages. That it's a former place and not a current place is irrelevant, encyclopaedic formatting should mean formatting in a current-date independent way. WilyD 16:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Looks like someone moved this recently without discussion, and now all the Scarborough Categories have followed suit. I'd like to move it back, if there is a consensus to do so. -- Earl Andrew - talk 00:12, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I agree, it shouldn't be Scarborough, Toronto as per what ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ said. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 00:19, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Oppose It's part of Toronto now. Using Scarborough, Ontario would imply an article about someplace in Ontario. Or it would imply an article about the place that existed separately before being merged into Toronto. A history article in other words and not about the current district, which people still refer to. And thirdly, all of the other articles about places/neighbourhoods/former towns within Toronto use the ,Toronto prefix. We should not deviate. Alaney2k (talk) 20:52, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Comment: A community is not necessarily defined by the municipality it's in. A lot of the amalgamations of the early 2000s created unnatural municipalities, like here in Ottawa. Scarborough is not just a neighbourhood, it's a community. People still use it in their mailing addresses. In other cases of amalgamations, we've still kept the province in the article title where appropriate. Why should Toronto be any different? -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:11, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

What would be the sense in moving the Toronto articles which are appended by ", Toronto"? There are a fair number of those. Parkdale, Ontario, Swansea, Ontario, etc. It just makes it vague. So what if people put Scarborough, Ontario on their paper letters, etc. That should not over-ride reality. In policy, having a ", Ontario" available rule exists to support villages like the disparate ones in Ottawa. Distinct towns and villages within a combined spread-out rural municipality. It doesn't make Scarborough any different from what exists in reality. It is its own district within Toronto. That much is alive and active. There is no space between Scarborough and the rest of Toronto. Not like Navan or Greely or Richmond at all. Alaney2k (talk) 22:12, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

List of educational institutions in Scarborough, Ontario

There is an ongoing AFD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of educational institutions in Scarborough, Ontario which may be of interest. It appears that List of educational institutions in Scarborough, Ontario was split out from this Scarborough article in 2008. It is now proposed that it be deleted. --doncram 17:24, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Trilingual sign at the Scarborough Hospital, Grace division.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:53, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 11 December 2022

Scarborough, Toronto → Scarborough, Ontario – Per WP:CANPLACE, formerly autonomous municipalities which have been amalgamated, but have kept a distinct municipal address, can be disambiguated as "Neighbourhood, Province". 162 etc. (talk) 18:08, 11 December 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 05:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment Article was moved from Scarborough, Ontario to Scarborough, Toronto in 2015, apparently undiscussed. 162 etc. (talk) 18:11, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
• support per nom. We might as well talk about moving York, Toronto to York, Ontario as well—blindlynx 20:32, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, that one was moved around the same time, by the same user. @Alaney2k: 162 etc. (talk) 20:41, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  • Support both of these.--Ortizesp (talk) 21:46, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
    • Support both as well. -- Earl Andrew - talk 00:30, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support all. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 01:40, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support. I've seen no evidence that either of the 2015 page moves actually took into account the real rule — which is that city neighbourhoods which are still recognized as distinct mailing addresses in their own right stay at the province level rather than being moved to the city level. For a person who lives in Scarberia, even to this day their mailing address is still Scarborough, ON rather than Toronto, ON. Bearcat (talk) 14:53, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• The rule is that they CAN stay with the Ontario disambiguator. Not that they must. Should every possible postal community be X, Province? No obviously.Alaney2k (talk) 00:06, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

• Don't support - While the rule says that articles CAN stay at the province level, I don't see a rationale FOR the move. Just because it is possible, is not a reason. There are literally dozens of former municipalities in Toronto. Carlton, Weston, Toronto Junction, Parkdale, Mimico, New Toronto, North York, East York, Islington, Rexdale, Downsview, Humber Bay, Etobicoke, York, and there were even villages within Scarborough. Just because you can address a letter to Scarborough, ON, doesn't mean it makes ANY sense to change the article title. People will think that Scarborough is separate from Toronto and it HAS NOT BEEN SEPARATE for over 20 ! years. The first line of the article will still say that Scarborough is a district of Toronto. Alaney2k (talk) 17:13, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
• Don't support - Editors of articles about neighborhoods in the 905 cities need to read this: They're full of neighborhoods that use the"Neighbourhood, Ontario" format because nearly everyone has a poor sense of municipal identity and still thinks of these places as towns or villages without question and don't even think of opening discussions like this.Transportfan70 (talk) 19:15, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  A merger of municipal governments does not mean that the municipal identity disappears. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any secondary sources using Bolton, Caledon rather than Bolton, Ontario; or Keswick, Georgina rather than Keswick, Ontario. The "postal address" rule makes sense to me; but feel free to bring it up at WT:Manual of Style/Canada-related articles if you disagree. 162 etc. (talk) 20:36, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  For "standalone" places like Bolton or Keswick you're right, but I'm talking places like Woodbridge, Unionville, and Buttonville, which are fully urbanized areas within cities. Even the infoboxes for these areas are of a town style, and some even have "Climate" sections.Transportfan70 (talk) 06:02, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

  They're still thought of and talked about like distinct towns. I honestly didn't even thing about those places being fully urbanized until you mentioned it—blindlynx 19:36, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

  York and Toronto's suburbs are different from Toronto. There are municipalities within York. And these former municipalities are spread apart. Not so in Toronto. Scarborough is nothing more than a division on a map now. A somewhat distinct district maybe. But drive up Vic Park Ave. Both sides look the same. All of the services are Toronto. From the perspective of a reader outside Toronto, and anywhere in the world, Scarborough is part of Toronto. Alaney2k (talk) 23:55, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

  By that metric most of the GTA can be thought of as part of Toronto from the perspective of certain outsiders, the Canada Post test is a decent metric for where to drawn the line especially given that people in southern Ontario—including Torontonians—still think in terms of preamalgamation municipalities—blindlynx 23:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  That is a bit silly. Of course, if you mention Mississauga or Woodbridge to someone outside Ontario, etc. you would still want to give them something to reference that is known internationally. We've gone over this several times. There is not benefit to renaming it. Simply because you can and some (an undefined number) think of it differently is not a rationale to rename the article. The common name is Scarborough. Adding the Toronto is for disambiguation, and is the closest upper level of governance. It is informative in that way. What benefit does changing it to Scarborough, Ontario bring? A sense of nostalgia fulfilled? I've occasionally thought that Scarborough, Ontario could be an article about the place that was. But then what would the new article be? And why divide it? People think of it as Scarborough, so don't split it, keep it an article about the current Scarborough. That is what Wikipedia is about after all, being current. If there is interest, then make a history of Scarborough, Ontario article. It dates back to just before 1800 after all. Alaney2k (talk) 07:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

  Of course it's silly that's why we have the Canada Post test in WP:CANPLACE! Scarborough, Ontario is a more intuitive and natural way of thinking about it even now. There's no nostalgia in it, people still think in terms of these divisions—blindlynx 20:13, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

  Woodbridge, Unionville, and Buttonville aren't municipalities anymore (in fact, they ceased to be long before Scarborough did), and Buttonville never was, nor did Buttonville ever have an identifiable "village" save for a few houses. And they're no longer spread apart. They're suburban districts that extend far from their original sites, just like their Toronto counterparts.Transportfan70 (talk) 03:56, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - Scarborough, Ontario already redirects here. Scarborough hasn't been it's own city since late last century, and is now a major subdivision of the City of Toronto, with some limited self-government under the auspices of Toronto City Council, as documented in Scarborough, Toronto#Governance. Reverting to archaic Canada Post postal codes (?!?) doesn't reflect common usage - good grief, doesn't Canada Post still recognize Willowdale, Ontario, which never existed. Perhaps this system works for Ghosttown, Ontario ... but not for distinct Toronto neighbourhoods; there are many many similar articles, such as Swansea, Toronto. Nfitz (talk) 02:34, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

  This argument about using Canada Post offices is wrong. Canada Post delivers by postal code anyway. You could probably leave off the city on any piece of mail, and as long as you put the code on, it would get delivered. If you receive mail, as I do, you notice that they sort by postal code by marks on the envelope. And the city already renamed streets in all municpalities to disambiguate them. It has been recognized this is one big city. Alaney2k (talk) 07:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

  To be fair, that last bit was due to the amalgamation of the 911 systems of each municipality. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 18:01, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

  Your issue seems to be with MOS:CANADA not with this particular move—blindlynx 17:51, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

  Is it though? MOS says "may" not "must". And in the case of a former city, where the name is no longer used in many contexts, that may be appropriate. But given that Scarborough not only remains a prominent neighbourhood, it's also a subpolitical unit of the City of Toronto. Nfitz (talk) 03:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

  Sorry i don't follow, how is it more appropriate when it's no longer used in in many contexts—unlike Scarborough—blindlynx 20:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support - as someone who was born and raised in Scarborough, I really don't care about which disambiguator is used. Scarborough, Ontario is still very much common vernacular (nobody will say "Scarborough, Toronto", though they will acknowledge it is part of Toronto). What I do think may matter here is the fact that Scarborough isn't a neighbourhood. Cedarbrae, Malvern, Agincourt... Those are neighbourhoods. Scarborough is nothing now but a memory and a reference. It's a former place in Ontario, not a current place in Toronto... at least that's how I see it. I wouldn't agree to "East Whitby, Oshawa", and I feel the same idea applies here. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 17:39, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

• No-one describes Scarborough as a neighbourhood, and several neighbourhoods as you describe were former postal villages too. It's best to leave out personal feelings and be objective. Alaney2k (talk) 00:06, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

• Weak support using the least precise geographical entity is probably best though Toronto may well be better known than Ontario. Fulwood, Lancashire (a former district, now in Preston district) is similarly disambiguated by "state" rather than district/city and Pinewood, Suffolk is also a municipality in Babergh district but in the town of Ipswich but is disambiguated by "state" rather than town. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:04, 24 December 2022 (UTC)