Talk:2024 United States presidential election

North Carolina swing state?

Shouldn’t we list North Carolina as a swing state? Prcc27 (talk) 22:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

No. The six states listed all went for Biden last time despite having a partisan lean towards Trump (relative to the nation). They are rated as "Toss-up" by at least half of the listed forecasters. North Carolina may be won by Harris, but only in a mini-landslide scenario. It is unlikely to be near the tipping point for victory. GreatCaesarsGhost 00:27, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Most of those forecast ratings are before Biden dropped, so not really relevant. NC seems to be in play now that Harris is the nominee; she is polling within the margin of error. What do the sources say, though? Being the tipping point ≠ swing state. Past performance in previous elections do not always have an effect on the next election. Prcc27 (talk) 06:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Well sure, if you disregard all the evidence, your case gets a lot stronger! :) The forecasts are sources. They have said NC is not a key swing state; until they say something different, who are we do disagree? ~ Also, where do you want it added? We do already note NC as a "battleground state" in the Electoral Map section. The lede indicates the six as "key" swing states. The word key implies we do not intend to list every state that could swing. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Many of the forecasts are literally “frozen”/“suspended” (in the case of 538 and Decision Desk HQ) or have Biden’s name instead of Harris’s. So no, those sources are not useable. But I guess I am okay with waiting to see what happens when the forecasts are activated again. What should be the threshold for adding NC to the lead? Georgia had half of the forecasts lean R half tossup. Prcc27 (talk) 16:32, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

As you suggest, I would go with the sources. I did a search for key swing states, and there isn't a lot of commentary after the Harris switch period. GreatCaesarsGhost 19:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

North Carolina is more likely to go blue than Nevada Yavneh (talk) 11:29, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Support as North Carolina voted for Trump by less than 1.5% in 2020, has a Democratic governor, and is being seriously contested (i.e. both campaigns spending significant time & resources there). JohnAdams1800 (talk) 16:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

You should note that North Carolina’s state assembly is veto-majority republican, and has only had three GOP governors in the last 100 years. So I oppose. Qutlooker (talk) 18:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Respectfully that has nothing to do with the presidential election

state and presidential elections are different John Bois (talk) 00:22, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Veto-proof majority due to extreme gerrymandering, not popular vote (I support) Superb Owl (talk) 15:51, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Support, I've found a few reliable sources that use the term "swing state" to describe NC.

• The 2024 Swing States: Why North Carolina Could Sway the Presidential Election, (U.S. News & World Report)
• Many voters in swing-state North Carolina are disengaged. Party activists hope to fire them up, (Associated Press)

Di (they-them) (talk) 03:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support Most sources covering the election have referred to NC as a swing state. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 05:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Support New polls show that the state is definitely in play if not a tossup. Trump vs Harris North Carolina Polling Average (538/ABC News) --173.48.177.80 (talk) 02:02, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Support per the points above John Bois (talk) 00:22, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

With 7 in support and 2 opposed, I added North Carolina Superb Owl (talk) 15:53, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Comment - a battleground state (which is on a per-election basis) is different from a swing state (one that reliably switches between parties). Since 1980, North Carolina has only voted Democratic once, so I don't think it could be classified as a swing state in the most technical of senses, but it is certinately a battleground. However since public opinion seems to be that swing state and battleground state are one and the same, I don't have a strong opinion either way DimensionalFusion (talk) 20:57, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Projected Electoral Votes infobox

There are two questions:

1. When should we add a state’s projected electoral votes to the infobox on Election Night?
   1. When a majority of major media networks make a projection.
   2. When all major media networks unanimously make a projection.
   3. When one major media makes a projection.
   4. Other?
2. Which major media source(s) should we use for the projected electoral vote tally?

Prcc27 (talk) 06:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

1. Option 2: A state’s electoral votes should only be added to the infobox based on unanimously projected Electoral Votes. Unanimous projections for the infobox tally is the compromise we more or less settled on in 2020. But for the map, I think we should use light red/light blue shades for states where a majority, but not all major media sources have made a projection; and save the darker shades for when the major outlets unanimously agree. Some users got impatient waiting several days for all news outlets to call Georgia. I feel like if we would have shaded GA light blue (like this), users would have been more patient waiting to add Georgia’s electoral college votes to the infobox. Per WP:NOTNEWS, there is no rush to add a state’s EVs to the infobox tally, if the state still has not been called by all major networks. Adding a state to the infobox based on only 1 or 2 media projections would be WP:UNDUE and problematic, especially in light of the AP/FOX Arizona projection controversy.

2. ABC, AP, CBS, CNN, and NBC are the sources we should use. These media organizations, (along with FOX, which we already agreed not to use), are usually considered the “major networks” when it comes to election projections (see National Election Pool and AP VoteCast). Last election, we used over a dozen news organizations, which made things very confusing and hard to keep track of. Narrowing the list of sources we use down to just five major sources will make editing drastically easier/simple, and would give due weight to the most prominent outlets and avoid giving undue weight to organizations that are less prestigious. Prcc27 (talk) 06:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Concur All of this looks good to me. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 Best to be certain. GoodDay (talk) 13:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 Since what Prcc27 has described. However, we should make sure to state that on the top of the talk page. Qutlooker (talk) 20:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. We should probably start an FAQ. I’m surprised we still do not have one. Prcc27 (talk) 20:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 Concur with Prcc27, including the use of a lighter color to indicate that the majority of sources have called a state. LK (talk) 14:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 per Prcc27, literally agree with everything there. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 18:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Something like option 1 but this whole RFC is unnecessary and misguided. Existing Wikipedia policy is sufficient for content disputes. At this time, there is no content dispute to decide. WP:UNDUE says we reflect the prominence of views in reliable sources. If a few reliable sources disagree with a broad consensus, we should show the broad consensus and use a footnote. We need to stop treating this page like it’s special and that normal Wikipedia policy for content disputes don’t apply. —JFHutson (talk) 19:57, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  The RfC is absolutely necessary. In 2020, we were split on when to add a state, and we ended up not updating the map on Election night because consensus was still divided; it was blank. We did not have an RfC in 2020, so I am hoping an RfC this year could avoid some of the issues we had last time. Requiring projections from only some/most of the sources only, rather than unanimous projections from the sources has WP:SYNTH issues. For example, in 2016 when we combined sources to call states, the race for Trump was called by Wikipedia several minutes before any major media organization had declared Trump the President-Elect. This was an extreme violation of WP:SYNTH that occurred because some outlets called WI for Trump, while others called PA for Trump (both states together putting him over 270 on our map); but no organization had called both states so every media organization still had him under 270. I also created plausible scenarios on my sandbox which show that Wikipedia could be the first to declare a nationwide winner (before any news organization names a President-Elect) again in 2024, if we jump the gun and add states where a majority (but not all) of the sources have made a projection. WP:DUE is met with the light blue/light red shades on the map. If we use option 1 or 3 for the infobox, we could end up violating WP:SYNTH and declaring a national winner before the media. Prcc27 (talk) 20:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  The SYNTH issue is in updating the number of votes with our own calculation. We should wait until the broad consensus is that a candidate has x votes before updating that. It’s probably best to leave the projected vote count blank until that time. But if reliable sources agree that a candidate has won a state, we need to say that even if there are holdout sources. —JFHutson (talk) 21:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  But we would be saying a candidate has won the state on the map (light blue/light red), and maybe even in the body of the article as well. We would just be more cautious on the infobox tally. We are allowed to make our own calculations per WP:CALC, as long as it is an accurate reflection of the sources. Obviously, having a candidate above 270 in our infobox tally when no major media organizations agrees, would not be in the spirit of WP:CALC. I do not think many users would agree with leaving the infobox tally blank. Prcc27 (talk) 21:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah I take back the comment that we should leave the total blank. If there really was a general consensus at some point that Trump was projected to win enough states to win the election, then putting that in the infobox would have been a Dewey beats Truman kind of thing, but the media’s problem, not ours. I don’t think that was the case. In your scenarios, we’re just reporting what the reliable sources are saying. Though I don’t think we use a simple majority. It would be more like if one outlet is holding out, we shouldn’t let that keep is from showing the “consensus” view. — JFHutson (talk) 00:13, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 2 as it doesn't violate WP:SYNTH, WP:OR, or WP:CRYSTALBALL if all major news networks unanimously agree on it DimensionalFusion (talk) 08:04, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Trump infobox photo

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is no consensus to implement any changes, so the status quo remains. Editors are fairly divided on whether to use Trump's official portrait, with reasonable arguments presented on both sides. Ultimately, the decision comes down to personal preference, making it difficult to prioritize policy-based arguments.

However, I find that there is a rough consensus that a change might be warranted in the future. Despite this, editors have not been able to agree on a suitable alternative, resulting in the status quo being upheld by default. This is further evidenced by editors !supporting retaining the existing image only because no other agreeable options have been presented.

Therefore, the status quo will remain unchanged, but the discussion may be revisited if new developments or alternative proposals emerge that could shift the consensus. C F A 💬 14:13, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

---

Official Portrait October 6, 2017 (2017-10-06)

In March, a consensus was established not to use Trump's official presidential portrait from 2017 (right) in the infobox for this article. However, since then, editors have been unable to decide on which photo to use as a replacement (alternative options below), and some editors have expressed support for using the 2017 portrait for at least one of the following reasons:

1. They never supported switching away from the 2017 portrait in the first place
2. They think that reverting to the 2017 portrait would resolve the ongoing disagreements about which photo to use as a replacement

Should Trump's official portrait from 2017 be used in the infobox of this article? Vrrajkum (talk) 19:11, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support - I believe that if you weigh the relevancy of his notability (the time he was president) vs the difference in appearance to a more modern one, we should just use the official portrait. I think he looks consisent throughout most of the alternative options, so let us just use what was prevalent when he was president.

MaximusEditor (talk) 17:47, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Strong Oppose: The infobox photo needs to represent people as they are or were during the event. So Donald Trump should have a photo which accurately represents how he is during the 2024 Presidential Election period, not how he looked like almost a decade ago EarthDude (talk) 09:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Alternative Options

• 
  July 26, 2024 (2024-07-26) (Option 1)
• 
  July 26, 2024 (2024-07-26) (Option 2)
• 
  June 15, 2024 (2024-06-15) (Option 3)
• 
  June 6, 2024 (2024-06-06) (Option 4)
• 
  June 6, 2024 (2024-06-06) (Option 5)
• 
  October 10, 2023 (2023-10-10) (Option 6)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 7)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 8)

Support As I mentioned above, news media are using Trump's official portrait for this election, as did the June presidential debate on CNN. There is also nothing inherently wrong with or misrepresentative about Trump's 2017 photo; he still looks very similar to how he looked when the portrait was taken. Vrrajkum (talk) 19:14, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose A different portrait should be chosen. The problem is before no consensus was ever reached because discussions quickly petered out. I think a new discussion should be opened on a non POTUS portrait being used. Talthiel (talk) 19:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I’m sorry, but the current infobox photo is terrible. Head tilted, weird facial expression, terrible background. I would prefer something newer than the 2017 portrait. But between the current infobox photo and the official portrait..? I say yes, use the official portrait. Prcc27 (talk) 19:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

You seemed to prefer File:Donald Trump (53067468124) (cropped).jpg from the same July 2023 event as the current image. I would rather that than the 7 year old OP. GhulamIslam (talk) 19:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I would support that image as well. Geffery2210 (talk) 19:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I would support going with File:Donald Trump (53067468124) (cropped).jpg or something similar as a compromise. I do not support the current infobox photo though. Prcc27 (talk) 20:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support is my !vote, at least until we can agree on a compromise. Prcc27 (talk) 05:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

SupportThe 2017 portrait should be used because it’s his official portrait and there are no valuable alternatives. Geffery2210 (talk) 19:26, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: reliable sources are using it. He doesn’t look much different. An alternative has not been proposed. Generally, it is counterproductive to say that something else should be done without saying what exactly to do, so any “consensus” against this photo should be ignored. —JFHutson (talk) 19:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: Like what JF said, reliable sources are using The Offical 2017 Portrait instead of the current one. And like I said before, other candidates in infoboxes in previous U.S Presidential Article's have their pictures from years aside from the election year. ( InterDoesWiki (talk) 20:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: I think a more recent picture should be used because it would be more representative of his current appearance, it would be closer in time to the election and he is not the incumbent president Punker85 (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: As per reasons above, Trump is no longer President. Using a different picture of him solidifies that fact as the official portrait used in 2016 and 2020 implies otherwise. There is very little harm in using an updated portrait of his current appearance seeing as it's been nearly 8 years since the portrait was taken TheFellaVB (talk) 07:45, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Courtsey pings to those who commented on previous discussions @TheFellaVB: @IEditPolitics: @Punker85: @PizzaSliced: @Buildershed: @Goodtiming8871: @MaximusEditor: @Segagustin: @InterDoesWiki: @TDKR Chicago 101: @Herostratus: @Longestview: @Voorts: @Esolo5002: @Senorangel: @Tim O'Doherty: @GoodDay: @Some1: @Yeoutie: @LegalSmeagolian: @Fieari: @Thesavagenorwegian: @JohnLaurensAnthonyRamos333: @MarioProtIV: @Nursultan Malik: @Ahecht: @SquidHomme: GhulamIslam (talk) 20:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Just because there hasn't been a clear consensus for which up-to-date portrait to use, doesn't mean we should revert to this old one. I think the one in use at the rn, File:Donald Trump 2023 (double cropped).jpg, is preferable. We can start the ball rolling again with another image choice RFC if y'all think it's time. I'm content at the moment though. Just to be clear though, I prefer just about any recent image to one from 2017. TheSavageNorwegian 20:22, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: Infobox portraits should be representative of the candidate at the time of the election. More recent photos are more accurate in this respect. LV ^{✉ ✎} 22:17, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: - This is the most neutral portrait which can be used until a consensus on what to change the portrait to can be found. The status quo should be reverted to until something else to replace it is agreed upon. Not change it, argue about the changes, and keep changing over and over. Change and replace with a consensus, not change and replace with no consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LawNerd123 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 10 Aug 2024 (UTC)

• Support - at least as a placeholder, until a new one is chosen. GoodDay (talk) 22:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  I agree use his official portrait till a new one is found. Geffery2210 (talk) 22:42, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: I prefer a more recent image of Trump. David O. Johnson (talk) 00:29, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support We basically want to use photos that make our subject look good, within the context of being accurate. There really isn't any way to make this guy look very good, but the official portrait is about as good as any. It is accurate enough. Also, how he looks right now is not supposed to be the major point. We're not a news site. Someday this guy is going to be dead, what photo will we use then? We are not supposed to be having to update photos as our subjects age. There are a fair number of articles about performers who are 70 now, or dead, that show them in prime. His prime was when he was in office, I guess. Herostratus (talk) 00:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  This is not for the photo to be used on Trump's article (to the point of the performers), which has been established in RfCs already to be his official portrait. This is for the photo to be used on the election page, where it is more important to have the person who's running now in my opinion, not who they were 7 years ago. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 06:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Unknown-Tree: Biden's official portrait from 2013 was used on the 2020 U.S. presidential election page while the election was ongoing, despite the portrait being 7 years old. Vrrajkum (talk) 09:03, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for your feedback. Using the official portrait seems fair and valid. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 02:21, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support Every alternative option has at least one obvious downside (there's too busy a background, he's not quite looking forward, his facial expression is odd, etc.) that is not present in the official photo. If Trump got a huge makeover in the last seven years, it'd make sense, but he more-or-less looks the same. I really don't see a good reason to not use it. Nojus R (talk) 01:33, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support only as a placeholder until a more recent option is agreed upon. Yeoutie (talk) 01:36, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - Too much time has passed. The Trump from 6 years ago is not running now. I STRONGLY believe a more recent picture should be used in articles about his current campaign. Fieari (talk) 02:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Neutral: It has varied. 1988 uses a crop of George H. W. Bush's vice president photo. 1992 uses a crop of Bush's presidential photo instead. Also for 1992 and for 1996, we use a photo of Ross Perot from 1986 according to the file description. We don't have a consistent style so far as I can tell, outside of our preference for free use photos. Sometimes we even change the photo after the fact, as with the 2008 article using cropped photos of Obama and McCain taken the following year or 2016 using a crop of Trump's official portrait. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:00, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  One photo has never been used to represent three different candidacies though (see Nixon, FDR, Cleveland, Bryan, Jackson, Jefferson, & Clay). GhulamIslam (talk) 10:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose using his official portrait. It's been 7 years, and he looks substantially older now; a more recent image would probably be suitable. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 06:37, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support As the person who took many of these photos being considered, I believe the official White House portrait should still be used. As I've stated before, his appearance has not changed that much, and it's still very obviously recognizable as the person it's intending to show. Calibrador (talk) 08:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose using a photograph from 7 years ago; he looks very different today. A more recent image, perhaps one provided by his campaign, should be used instead. LK (talk) 14:12, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose using his official portrait; the current image is more recent and IMO better than the other (newer) suggested photos. Some1 (talk) 17:30, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  I don’t think we should use the 2017 portrait but we need to use a different one, the one being used now has a terrible angle, would be better to have a photo facing forward like the ones shown above. Geffery2210 (talk) 23:59, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support using portrait If we're not going to use his official portrait because it's 'outdated' then make up your mind about which portrait to use instead. I support using the official portrait until a preferable replacement reaches consensus. Plus, Trump's appearance hasn't changed that drastically since 2017 unlike Tammy Baldwin who has changed since her 2013 portrait but that's still being used on her infobox. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 05:18, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  This isn't Donald Trump's page, this is the election page. 2024 United States Senate election in Wisconsin uses a much newer picture of Baldwin. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 13:55, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  What are you talking about..? The Wisconsin article uses her 2013 portrait. That is a much older picture of Baldwin than Trump..Prcc27 (talk) 04:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

  It looks like somebody changed her infobox photo to her 2013 portrait.. Prcc27 (talk) 04:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• Strong Support  : Three reasons support the use of the official portrait. 1) The existing photos of all US presidents, including Dwight D. Eisenhower, Harry S. Truman, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Jimmy Carter,Ronald Reagan. Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, etc., are the ones that capture their best likeness. There is no need to replace these photos with awkward facial expressions simply because the president has aged. It makes sense to use the best available photo. 2. Until President Donald Trump designates another official portrait, it is advisable to use the existing official portrait that best represents the person. 3. The alternative photos have several disadvantages, such as complex backgrounds, the subject looking away, or awkward facial expressions. Unfortunately, there is no photo that can adequately replace the official award photo. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:47, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  On your first point, I have to repeat what Unknown-Tree said: we're talking about this article's infobox, the 2024 US presidential election, not the Donald Trump article.

  Until President Donald Trump designates another official portrait

  That would depend on him winning the election, and there's at least a 50% chance that won't happen. GhulamIslam (talk) 17:17, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose We should not use the same image for 3 elections over 8 years. GhulamIslam (talk) 01:33, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• I Strongly Oppose using a 7 years old outdated photograph. Trump is currently a much older man, and his portrait should preferably reflect that. David A (talk) 06:17, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• oppose - photo should be updated for this race, and should be as recent as possible (options 1-5). Trump's age is an issue in the campaign and the more more recent photos are more WP:precise Superb Owl (talk) 21:49, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support as the alternatives portray Trump as smug or psychopathic, which are criticisms that have been leveled against him. GreatCaesarsGhost 13:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose using old official portrait. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Alternative options?

@Talthiel: @Prcc27: @Geffery2210: @Punker85: @TheFellaVB: @TheSavageNorwegian: @Longestview: @LawNerd123: @GoodDay: @David O. Johnson: @Unknown-Tree: @Yeoutie: @Fieari: @Lawrencekhoo: @Some1: @TDKR Chicago 101: Those of you who oppose using the 7 year old OP, or would use it only as a placeholder until a more recent option is agreed upon, which of the 8 alternatives do you prefer? (or propose another) GhulamIslam (talk) 20:15, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 2 or 5 Since we're not using the official portrait (still a bit weird IMO), either 2 or 5 will do. As long as there's a good quality image of him facing forward like Kamala is in her portrait, that'll do fine. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 20:32, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 1, 4, or 5 work for me, I still opposing using the presidential portrait. Talthiel (talk) 20:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Approve options 2, 3, 6, and 8; and Oppose options 1, 4, 5, 7, and official portrait. LV ^{✉ ✎} 02:41, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I am open to options 1, 2, and 7, but would prefer something with a better background. Option 6 has a good background, but a weird facial expression, so I do not support that option. The presidential portrait is currently the best quality photo out of all the options (but I would prefer something more recent). None of the alternatives seem “presidential” enough for me. I want to reiterate my support for the presidential portrait, given I doubt we will get consensus for any other photo at this RfC. Prcc27 (talk) 04:18, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to start a separate RFC, but it would help if more people would notice and comment. I'd be fine with option 6: Harris, Stein, and Kennedy have similarly fulsome smiles in their photos. GhulamIslam (talk) 05:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 6, Option 3, and Option 8 seem to best encapsule Trump's character, but if we want something more neutral and up-to-date, Option 1 seems good as well. David A (talk) 06:23, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 6 I think is the best option out of the current options, because it gives a more natural look to the front compared to the other candidates. The reason is that It balances the angles and expressions of Harris, Stein, and Kennedy's current photos. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I still prefer the current image, which is Option 8. Just based on personal preference, really. Some1 (talk) 22:56, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I do not mind using that image in terms of composition, but it is older than the others. David A (talk) 08:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, Option 8 is not suitable for election campaigning because it looks arrogant and dismissive. However, Option 6 is suitable for election campaigning because it looks friendly. An official portrait is the best, but this is the second best. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 13:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 5: I think it have a good neutral facial expression and good lighting and it is pretty recent Punker85 (talk) 21:43, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 5 is better than option 8 Goodtiming8871 (talk) 00:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 3 The two most recent images are overexposed; the 3rd has a better contrast between Trump and the background and he's wearing his characteristic red tie.

It's similar to Mitt Romney's image in 2012, coincidentally, his last official portrait is also 7 years too old for that election.

I would crop it to match with Harris'. GhulamIslam (talk) 01:50, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 6 seems like the best one, he is smiling, just like his official portrait and other candidates' portraits. He has a blue tie, which is typical for an official portrait like George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, and himself. G0dzillaboy02 (talk) 11:10, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy pings to those who participated in previous discussions or expressed interest in replacing the photo. Hello, @Talthiel: @Vrrajkum: @Maximus: @Prcc27: @Geffery2210: @JFHutson: @InterDoesWik: @LawNerd123: @Herostratus: @Nojus R: @Yeoutie: @Super Goku: @Calibrador: @TDKR Chicago 101: @Punker85: Of the current photo options, option 5 and Option 6 seem suitable. However, President Trump head tilt and expression in other options are awkward. could we add an official portrait as a third option, then vote on the best replacement? Goodtiming8871 (talk) 01:06, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Did you count the votes, or are those just your favourites? Besides, people are still voting. GhulamIslam (talk) 01:50, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The 2017 presidential portrait is already an option (and a slight majority support that option actually). This section seems to be which photo do we want if we don’t choose the 2017 photo. Prcc27 (talk) 01:53, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Still neutral. There was a point made in response to my comment that we have not reused the same image for three elections, so maybe the 2016 article needs to change. :p

In all seriousness, I don't have a preference to the image. I will say that we might end up changing the image anyways post-election. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

You're joking, but I actually am in favor of changing to his first official portrait for 2016, given that it was published on his inauguration day. GhulamIslam (talk) 18:31, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I would be in favor of that as well. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm still option official portrait, Kamala and JD's are being used and pretty sure if Walz had one, he'd be in use too. It's just a bit awkward having Trump's candid pic, but JD has an official portrait (this is different than Harris and Walz because we have a Trump portrait whereas Walz's isn't in the public domain), however if we have to pic a replacement, option 2 would be my pick. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 04:36, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The official portrait option is the preferred option for many people. In particular, Kamala uses the official portrait, so I think it is fair to use the official portrait for Trump. However, since using the official portrait may require more support from many people, I think it is reasonable to use option 6, which has a similar head angle as the official portrait and is preferred by many people, for the time being.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Kamala uses the official portrait of a smiling face, which is a natural facial expression, and this is the most similar natural smiling face expression and face angle to Trump's official portrait, and among those that are most similar to this, option 6 was chosen by many people, so I changed it to this for now.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 09:16, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I disagree – the current image should be kept until a consensus has been created. Changing it to Option 6 "for the time being" is still changing it and Option 6 doesn't seem to have broad support DimensionalFusion (talk) 12:04, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I roughly counted the actual votes,In the first vote,

13 people chose to use the 2017 official portrait,

and the other 13 people wanted to use other options.

In the second vote,

(which is in the * Alternative options? section,)

The most popular choices were the 2017 official portrait and option 6, with 4 users supporting them,

and the second most popular choices were options 1, 2, 5, and 8, with 3 users choosing them.

The third most popular choice was option 3, with 2 users choosing it,

and the fourth most popular choice was photos 4 and 7, with 2 users choosing them.

The photos that received the most user choices were the 2017 official portrait and option 6, so I think it would be reasonable to use them. Is the voting period for choosing photos 1 week or 2 weeks? Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Raw numbers don't determine decisions. Consensus has not been found here: only four users? DimensionalFusion (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I would like to change the existing agreement to use the current photo with the weird expression. If multiple people agree to change it, can we change it? Can you tell me the previous RfC link that led to the current photo being selected? Goodtiming8871 (talk) 21:46, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

CLOSE This Talk is divided on several options, and the numbers for and against are similar, so no consensus can be reached. Please end the voting and I will propose a new RfC with the three most voted photos. I would like to formally request an experienced Wikipedian or Admin to close this RfC content. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Support for the official portrait is about 50/50, with no consensus for any of the alternative photos. Prcc27 (talk) 22:42, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

The existing RfC requested closure from the Admin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Closure_requests#RfC%3A_Trump_infobox_photo Goodtiming8871 (talk) 01:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Photo taken on August 23, 2024.

Comment Still prefer the official portrait being used, but if another (newer) option is desired, here is one. Calibrador (talk) 01:09, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your hard work in finding the photo - the photo you suggested is a stressed out look, not suitable for election purposes, and as you mentioned, a confident and bright official photo would be better.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 10:55, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Notice - If you have not yet participated in this RFC, please close it instead of giving your opinion. -- doing uninvolved close I have requested the administrator of the RFC linked below to close it. Since consensus is not possible in this RfC, other users have agreed to close it. I understand that users who have not given their opinion in this RfC can close it, so please close it. Or, if there is anything else needed to close it through the administrator, please give me your opinion. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 10:57, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

You already requested that it be closed at Closure requests. Please wait a bit of time to see what happens there. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:12, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 or 5 would be best, imho. 6-8 are right out. 3 looks a bit goofy. 4 is angled weirdly, and that white blotch in the background is not ideal. 1 isn't bad, but the expression on 2 is better. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

  Hello,

  From my understanding based on advice from other users, the temporary photo that's currently being posted is not the agreed upon photo, and you have to decide what other replacement photo to use while using the official portrait. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 10:00, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New Donald Trump photo

Hello new Wikipedians, If we need to open the new RFC for Trump election photo, from my understanding we need to wait ✋️ before existing RFC finalised. So if non of the users comment to the existing RFC (Automatic closure), or agrees on the RFC, it will be close or finalized. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 08:28, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Dear experienced Wikipedians, Courtesy pings to those who participated in previous discussions or expressed interest in replacing the photo. @Talthiel: @Vrrajkum: @Maximus: @Prcc27: @Geffery2210: @JFHutson: @InterDoesWik: @LawNerd123: @Herostratus: @Nojus R: @Yeoutie: @Super Goku: @Calibrador: @TDKR Chicago 101: @Punker85: @Freedom4U: @Teknologi Positif: Can you advise me on whether we can close the previous and current duplicated RfC regarding the replacement proposal of the photo to the 2024 Trump presidential election? As things stand, there are too many options to reach a consensus and it seems like it will only delay things. There are currently several options, but since there are so many options}} it seems reasonable to consolidate them into 3 to 5 options based on the most votes and then re-post the RfC.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 23:57, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

What does consensus mean on wikipedia? If 10 people vote and 6 agree, is that a consensus?

I checked the existing agreement, and if more than half of the voters agree, even if there are some who oppose, if a majority agrees on one opinion, it is considered an agreement. - Please let me know if this is a misunderstanding.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 00:58, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

In regards to the proposed profile picture, I would suggest a picture that would be compatible with the opposing candidate's picture (i.e., if the opposing candidate is friendly to voters, then the picture should be friendly enough to be considered friendly).

it's not RfC , It is simply talk, this is to get your feedback in advance of a new RfC, as the existing RfC is pending Administration approval for close.

Alternative Options

• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  Official Portrait October 6, 2017 (2017-10-06)(Option 1)
• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 2)
• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 3)
• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  October 10, 2023 (2023-10-10) (Option 4)

All of those proposed photos (except the 2017 portrait) are terrible. Prcc27 (talk) 05:03, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• Getting confused by all of these RfCs and votes about images. Personally, all of this would have been avoided if we just stuck to the official portrait. The less candid, the better especially since we're using official portraits for JD and Kamala. Walz is an exception since he doesn't have an official portrait in the public domain. Hence, it's so out of place to use a candid pic of Trump when we have an official portrait ready to use. That's why always consider my vote for the official portrait. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 05:24, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for your feedback. The quality of the photo is such that you can see a big difference in quality between the official portrait and other photos of the presidential candidate. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree we should go with official portrait. While we should go with a contemporary portrait where possible, quality is more important. Our prior year US presidential election pages are full of portraits that are older than 7 years. GreatCaesarsGhost 13:18, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the insight into the past history. I learned from you that "our previous US presidential election Wikipedia webpage often used portraits that were more than 7 years old." - Good point, in terms of giving a fair chance to anyone running for US President. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 09:23, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Close Why is this still a discussion? There was consensus to change from the official portrait to the current photo, but there clearly won't be for any other changes. Keep the current photo. Dingers5Days (talk) 15:19, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

There was no consensus to change to the current photo. A consensus to change from the official portrait to something else should have started a conversation to determine what the something else should be while retaining the official photo rather than putting in an arbitrary photo. The current photo does not have a consensus. You can’t just say you don’t like something without saying what you want to happen. — JFHutson (talk) 15:28, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying the actual facts about what the original March/2024 agreement contained. "The agreement to change from the official portrait to something else had to start a conversation to decide what the difference was while keeping the official portrait in place, not just putting in a random photo." In order to have a constructive conversation,

"You can't just say you don't like something without saying what you want." In other words, the temporary photo that's currently being posted is not the agreed upon photo, and you have to decide what other replacement photo to use while using the official portrait.

Temporary photo that were previously posted without an agreed upon procedure will be replaced back to the original official photo until a decision is made to change them from the official photo through RfC. :::::Hello, Courtesy pings to those who participated in previous discussions or expressed interest in replacing the photo. @Super Goku: @GhulamIslam: @Vrrajkum: @Maximus: @Geffery2210: @JFHutson: @InterDoesWik: @Prcc27:@LawNerd123: @Herostratus: @Nojus R: @Yeoutie: @Calibrador: @TDKR Chicago 101: @GreatCaesarsGhost:

If someone change the official photo back to a non-agreed temporary photo without following the change procedure according to the Wikipedia RfC, it will be reverted. We ask that you follow the Wikipedia RfC procedure to keep the official photo being used before a general agreement via RfC among users is reached. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 09:47, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 August 2024

"If elected, he would be the first marine and first Iraq War veteran to serve as vice president. Trump had survived an assassination attempt days earlier with a gunshot wound to the ear."

Request to remove.

The comment on the assassination seems like a non-sequitur. Especially after talking about how Vance is the candidate before just suddenly swapping to that. Plus there's a section on the assassination attempt already. SomeoneOK (talk) 18:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done, seems like a very solid change, particularly the writing style part. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 19:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done - @SomeoneOK and Kingsmasher678: So, to clear up what happened: The second sentence was added on July 15th and the first sentence on August 8th, which caused the issue. The latter edit was trying to expand on the initial Vance sentence about Trump announcing him as his VP.

As for the fix, I instead just moved the later sentence to a new paragraph above the RNC paragraph with some small tweaks to the text and sourcing. While there is a brief sub-section on the assassination attempt in the Background section, as far as I can tell the party sections are intended to summarize how their nominee got to be the nominee and what happened en-route to the election. As an example of this, the end of the first paragraph mentions Trump's civil proceedings, despite there already being such sub-section in the Background section about the proceedings. Along these line, should a sub-section about Biden's withdraw be created, we would still keep the line in the Democratic Party section that he withdrew from the race in July.

If this isn't satisfactory for either of you, then feel free to let me know. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:48, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Nope, works fine for me! I'm just trying to work through the edit request backlog, so if it's closed, I'm happy.

Kingsmasher678 (talk) 19:53, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Cornell West

Why does the West-Abdullah ticket, have an infobox? GoodDay (talk) 02:11, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

• There was an inconclusive discussion here and a current discussion is in progress here. Glancing at his page, he lacks (non-write-in) ballot access in 270 states, and most coverage doesn't mention him, so I don't think an infobox for him is due. At the same time, it is true that he has a bit more coverage than most of the candidates who currently lack an infobox; but all of this coverage is the "what impact will this have on the election between the credible candidates?" sort, none of this actually takes him seriously as a candidate or focuses on him as an individual, so it's probably not enough to support an infobox. (Though using ballot access as the threshold causes problems IMHO - if we're excluding West, why are we giving an infobox to Oliver, who, I think it's reasonably obvious, has even less coverage? Or Stein, whose coverage isn't really any more serious or common than West?) --Aquillion (talk) 03:10, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

(EC) Not sure, but it has been there since at least the 17th. I will do some digging. --Super Goku V (talk) 03:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, so this predates this year. To be brief, Esolo5002 created the original table for West back around the November 2023 elections during a period when this article was being heavily edited. David O. Johnson undid the table and following some discussion on the talk page, Prcc27 went on to restore West to the table.

The next major table change was on March 26th to add a running mate column by David O. Johnson, before a series of bold edits to Kennedy were made starting on March 27th which led to significant activity for days. These March 27th edits left West alone in a table without any column headers. Then DukeOfDelTaco's edit the next day removed West's table entirely while resorting Kennedy's placement in the article, which Prcc27 fixed on the same day, which was then undone by Lukt64 only for him to go back and restore the table, but this time under the Other independent candidates sub-section and more importantly with {{Nominee Table}}. After DukeOfDelTaco moved West up a sub-section on March 29th, this new infobox remained in the article with minimal issues after a brief disappearance in May until recently.

To go over recently, we had Kennedy dropped out on the 23rd, which triggered new edits in the Independents sub-section. WalterII's edit removed West's infobox and moved him to the Other independent candidates sub-section which got renamed to Independent candidates which Punker85 reverted two hours later. Sixteen or so hours later on the 24th, WalterII removes West infobox again and merges the sections into a new Third-party and independent candidates sub-section. Now XavierGreen reverts and then self reverts due to timing reasons. Punker85 then restores the infobox on the 25th. After a few days, WalterII removes West's infobox on the 29th, Punker85 restores on the 30th, and Superb Owl reverts the restore an hour later. And here we are. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:45, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

And with the history out of the way, the best answer to your question GoodDay seems to be that West was polling better last year when the primaries were months away, only to fade over time. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into this - the current discussion is 3 in favor of removal and 1 against, so I removed the infobox (6 if everyone here is agreed that it is undue). I agree that none of the third-party candidates merit a box as the coverage, especially over the last couple months, has been focused on what impact collectively they will have on the major parties (which is why they are polled) not whether any candidate could be competitive in a state. According to RCP, Stein is now polling at 1%. West at 0.8%. Oliver at 0.7%. Superb Owl (talk) 03:27, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

West/Abdullah ticket shouldn't have an infobox. As for the Libertarian & Green tickets? They generally do have infoboxes, as they're now considered the 'third' & 'fourth' political parties of the USA. GoodDay (talk) 13:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

This is discussion is the third attempt to remove West this month. The prior discussions tally was 4 keep (Lukt, Xavier,Punker 85, me) and 4 remove (Dav88, Superb Owl, Prcc27, KlayCax). Consensus can change, but we should not act on a suggestion like this after one hour. GreatCaesarsGhost 16:36, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

+1 for remove. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:00, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

We now have 7 for remove and 1 keep (2 if you are still in favor @GreatCaesarsGhost) Superb Owl (talk) 18:19, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

+1 vote for remove. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Reversions on Trump Photo

Following the conclusion of the RfC, there was no consensus as to whether to change the photo to the official photo, keep it as is, or use an alternative photo. The conclusion of the RfC states There is no consensus to implement any changes, so the status quo remains. Editors are fairly divided on whether to use Trump's official portrait, with reasonable arguments presented on both sides. and concludes Therefore, the status quo will remain unchanged. However several editors seem to have interpreted this as being the official portrait so several reversions have taken place on the article.

Brought to the talk page to prevent further reversions: I believe "status quo" means the image that was there previously, not the official portrait from 7 years ago. DimensionalFusion (talk) 19:23, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

As stated in the aforementioned RFC, “In March, a consensus was established not to use Trump's official presidential portrait from 2017 (right) in the infobox for this article. However, since then, editors have been unable to decide on which photo to use as a replacement.” If this is correct, then there was never a consensus to switch to the current photo. The status quo should have been kept until a consensus on what to do was established. A consensus to not use one photo is not a consensus to use whatever photo an individual editor selects. — JFHutson (talk) 20:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

You'll never get people to agree, just saying. Calibrador (talk) 21:17, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

This isn't about what should have happened – the current image is, by definition, the status quo. That's why I believe reverting to the official portrait is the incorrect choice until consensus is established DimensionalFusion (talk) 21:20, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

It’s about what should happen now, which is to reflect the status quo before the stalled BRD. Right now the article does not reflect consensus. The status quo changes with consensus, not a single editor’s whim. The WP:STATUSQUO is the version before the discussion started. As is evident in the quote above, the discussion has not resulted in a new consensus that can be labeled a “status quo.” — JFHutson (talk) 21:29, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the wikipedia policy - The WP:STATUSQUO is the version before the discussion started. So we should start RfC based on status of quo before the previous discussion. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 22:55, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Or… We could just ask the closer of the RfC what they meant by status quo? @CFA DimensionalFusion (talk) 02:01, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

He wasn’t really being asked what the status quo was but what the consensus of the RFC was. He rightly judged there was no consensus. I’m saying regardless of that that the status quo was the official portrait. — JFHutson (talk) 02:09, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I meant the official portrait. Jfhutson is right. There is no consensus to change away from the "status quo". As you can see in the RfC above, the official potrait had almost 50% support among editors — the plurality by a fairly large margin. Yes, there is around the same amount of support for not the official portrait, but there is no agreement as to what picture to use instead. So the official portrait remains. As I mentioned in my closing statement, I think it is likely that consensus for another picture could be established in the future (evidenced by people supporting the official portrait only because there are no suitable alternatives), but right now the official portrait generally has the broadest support among editors. No other picture mentioned has enough support. C F A 💬 02:14, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

We’ve had two major RfCs, I believe: one in March in which the conclusion was to not use the official portrait, and one with no conclusion. So I ask: how is it possible for the status quo portrait to be the official portrait? DimensionalFusion (talk) 02:10, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

A conclusion to not do something is not a conclusion to do anything in particular. If I gained a consensus that this article sucks and should be rewritten, it would probably result in nothing. It would not mean there is a consensus to replace it with something even worse. — JFHutson (talk) 02:23, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I don’t particularly like the current portrait. But I keep it because there was a consensus to replace it, and this version won out over all the other ones and WP:SILENCE is consensus. Therefore we should not use the official portrait, which leaves this one DimensionalFusion (talk) 02:28, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think the record in this talk page reflects SILENCE. — JFHutson (talk) 02:30, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Maybe not, but this is the photo that survived after all other ones. DimensionalFusion (talk) 02:51, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

, A few users didn't follow the WP;Status Quo but it doesn't mean that justification of the random temporary photo; To be fair; the record of this talk page are the clear evidence, WP:SILENCE can't be applied but WP:Status Quo of the original and official photo is reasonably to be applied. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 02:51, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

It really can’t. The RfC in March definitely decided that the official portrait should NOT BE USED, and after failing to reach a consensus to re-add the official portrait, some users add it back in anyway DimensionalFusion (talk) 02:57, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

we should have started the new RfC for replacing the official photo by keeping original photo and followingWP:Status Quo. Not following Wikipedia policy cannot be used for justification of the temporary random photo. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 03:05, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed to not use official photo -> swap it out with a photo that is good enough -> months go by -> no consensus to add back in official photo that is

Somehow it’s the status quo? No. DimensionalFusion (talk) 03:07, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Will all of you stop with the Trump photo? We have three discussions about it, and we don’t need more. Yavneh (talk) 02:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

This continuing dispute over which image to use, grows tiresome. Use whichever one yas' want. GoodDay (talk) 03:12, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree DimensionalFusion (talk) 03:15, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:Status Quo should be started when this main article was created and how long the original photo was placed.

clearly no consensus of the the temporary and random photo mean that we should follow the process now by keeping the original photo before arrival to the consensus and starting the new RfC for replacement.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 03:33, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

No, WP:Status Quo should be started when the RfC to change the current photo was started, not 6 months after the previous RfC DimensionalFusion (talk) 08:52, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

This is unfortunately correct. There actually was unanimous consensus following the removal of "official" to go with "self-assured schmuck" (albeit quickly decided and with limited input). Folks need to learn how to compose an RfC so its comments can actually be read as consensus. 8 options, with people offering varying levels of support for multiples is anarchy. GreatCaesarsGhost 11:54, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed DimensionalFusion (talk) 12:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Where is the rock solid consensus for the schmuck photo? My memory is not months of happiness about the photo, but constant and unproductive discussion. You recognize it was quickly decided and with limited input, and that type of consensus shouldn’t be used to enforce a widely disliked image on such a contentious and widely viewed topic. — JFHutson (talk) 13:44, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it makes sense to use the official photo as a WP:STATUSQUO before there is a consensus on the photo to be changed and a photo that is agreed upon by a majority. We should create a separate Talk Page for WP:STATUSQUO to check. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 14:18, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

It is factually impossible for the official portrait to be a status quo image as it was decided by an RfC that the official portrait should not be used. DimensionalFusion (talk) 14:52, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

It's here. There was a discussion to change the photo, multiple users agreed, the discussion was left open for an appropriate time, then the change was made. It was a fully appropriate read of consensus. That then became the status quo. All subsequent discussion failed to achieve consensus, and thus "schmuck" remains. Before you criticize me for this read, please note that I was the only one in the discussion advocating to keep the official photo. I still prefer it. GreatCaesarsGhost 14:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

The WP:STATUSQUO's Infobox photo

The WP:STATUSQUO should consider the photo before the dispute occurred as WP:STATUSQUO by judging which photo was placed in the topic "2024 United States presidential election". In addition, among the 80 or so existing users who contributed to the text corresponding to the current topic, 6 agreed and 3 opposed, and only the photo replacement agreement was reached, but there was no agreement on which photo to use.

• In other words, considering that the temporary and random photo uploaded photo is still in dispute from the past to the present, considering that numerous users continue to oppose the photo on this Talk Page. For this content, WP:STATUSQUO should use the official photo before the dispute occurred.
• I am recording the evidence that the existing agreement was that 6 people agreed to change it and 3 people opposed it, and there was no RfC for selecting the photo to change.

* Originally, The WP:STATUSQUO image with the subject "2024 United States presidential election" Special:PermaLink/1212321039

• Previous talk: Biden and Trump pictures : Started by . TheFellaVB - 20:06, 6 March 2024 - Agree to change(1) Closed by - Punker85 (talk) 20:42, 27 March 2024 (UTC) - Agree to change (2) > User:PizzaSliced ​​- Agree to change (3) > user: Wikipedia1010121 - Agree to change (4) > user: Lostfan333 - Agree to change (5) > user : GhulamIslam - Agree to change (6) > user: OCNative - posted the official photo > user:GreatCaesarsGhost - oppose <1> > user:Memevietnam98 - - oppose <2> > user:68.189.2.14 - oppose <3> March and April discussion on the same page as the above conversation link: Talk:2024_United_States_presidential_election/Archive_7

Users who opposed changing the official photo on the March and April talk pages on the same page as the conversation content that was said to have been agreed upon above;

• Subject Wikipedia usually uses official portraits for infoboxes. > user:WorldMappings - oppose <5> 20:52, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Subject: Donald Trump photo in infobox > user:WorldMappings - oppose <6> user:CY223 - 04:40, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• > user:Sthubertliege - oppose <7> > user:TDKR Chicago 101 - oppose <8> Since then, there have been frequent instances of changing photos because there was no agreed upon replacement photo, and in August alone, > user:Vrrajkum changing photo of Trump to his official presidential portrait; 17:44, 10 August 2024 user:Goodtiming8871 - 12:39, 31 August 2024‎- (Temporary photo that were previously posted without an agreed upon procedure replaced back to the original official photo- Gain consensus in the talk page before changing this picture, if else the change will be reverted > User:GoodDay (talk | contribs) at 16:29, 31 August 2024 (changed to the status quo, image). Special:PermaLink/1243287211

Goodtiming8871 (talk) 14:27, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Disagree. There was an RfC that decidedly said not to use the official portrait, so I fail to see how it could possibly be a status quo image. DimensionalFusion (talk) 14:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

There was a discussion about changing the official portrait, with some existing users participating and 6 agreeing and 3 disagreeing, but this does not mean that * the temporary and random photo can be used. * Until there is an agreed upon replacement photo, the official portrait should be the WP:STATUSQUO and a photo that has a majority consensus among the examples below should be confirmed. as user:Prcc27, user:TDKR Chicago 101, User:jfhutson suggested Goodtiming8871 (talk) 15:06, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Option 1 should not be put in because Trump is 7 years older than he was in the photo, which is especially pertinant when a big portion of the election is focused around Trump's age and comptency to run. It's been historical precedent to use the best photo, not the official one. For example, FDR has had a different photo in 1932, 1936, 1940, and 1944 and rightly so – health concerns make it important to show that he had got older since 1932 so instead, more recent pictures are used.

I don't really like option 2 as it's at a tilted angle with his head slanted, and the camera facing upwards instead of head-on.

Option 3 is level with his face, but Trump's expression in the photo makes him look deranged, plus his body is tilted to the left instead of facing the camera.

Option 4 is perhaps the best in terms of having good camerawork (at eye level, face and body facing camera) and he is smiling like Kamala but there's just a quality I can't describe that makes him look unsetteling DimensionalFusion (talk) 16:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

President Grover Cleveland ran for President in 1884, 1888, and 1892. All 3 elections use the same portrait/picture of Cleveland. InterDoesWiki (talk) 06:07, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

That was when photography was still much harder to accomplish, so there were less available photos DimensionalFusion (talk) 07:22, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Only commenting because my name was invoked. I do not think the closer meant that the 2017 portrait was the “status quo”. Prcc27 (talk) 19:02, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

the previous conversation was talk and no consensus to the replacement photo; so status quo is before debate start. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 23:58, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The debate start was the RfC to replace the photo started several days ago, not a totally different RfC 6 months ago. DimensionalFusion (talk) 07:21, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I stand by my decision that the official portrait should be used. The current alternative options don’t look as good as the official portrait. If the portrait is good enough to use for Trumps infobox it should be good enough for this article as well. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 01:21, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree. But let’s not kid ourselves; this is going against the RfC closure. Prcc27 (talk) 01:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Courtesy pings to those who participated in previous discussions or expressed interest in replacing the photo. About the WP:NPOV Concerns of the previous talk on March/2024, @Super Goku: @GhulamIslam: @Vrrajkum: @Maximus: @Geffery2210: @JFHutson: @InterDoesWik: @Prcc27:@LawNerd123: @Herostratus: @Nojus R: @Yeoutie: @Calibrador: @TDKR Chicago 101: @GreatCaesarsGhost: As noted in summary, 1) Regarding the previous talk on March/2024,- link attached below talk ref. The title omitted the word RfC and used the ambiguous word "Biden and Trump photo", which was overlooked as a minor topic by Wikipedia editors. 2) However, when some users agreed to the title without RfC, but several users disagree the change and the user user:OCNative previously directly uploaded an official Trump photo to express his preference of official photo, the votes should be counted 6 in favor: 4 against, but this was counted as 6 in favor: 1 against, which caused confusion among other users due to the incorrect tally. 3) If it was a photo change, the photo image should have been uploaded to make the TALK stand out, but regarding the TALK, which is the core of the photo change, the photo was omitted and replaced with TEXT several times, which made users think that the TALK was minor. 4) When the TALK was conducted with the title without RfC, and User participation was limited, TALK was quickly closed, and other users were encouraged to follow this by repeatedly stating that this was an RfC. However, other Wikipedians were asked to follow the previous RfC (???) that was just a discussion topic.

(Question) Why was it titled Missing keyword: RfC and thus had less user participation?, and did they list the pictures clearly so that other users could distinguish it as one of the most important topics in the 2024 election? 5) Even if we follow Wikipedia's advice and view the above situation as well-intentioned, too many mistakes were made at the same time, and this seems to create the concerns to the core value of WP:NPOV. I would like to get feedback from other users. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 02:17, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the concerns of WP:NPOV, The actual target of the change is the official photo of Donald uploaded on the main article, but I think the excuse that it was difficult to obtain the photo is an unreasonable. If the previous user had tried to change the most important official photo of the infobox, which is the target of the change, and had tried to see it with good intentions, and had accidentally omitted the RFC with proper heading, but if the previous user attached the official photo with heading of RFC: official Trump photo changes, at least 3-5 times more users would have participated in the related discussion, and there would have been a considerable number of opposing opinions, as can be seen from the numerous opposing opinions so far. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goodtiming8871 (talk • contribs) 09:21, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

• I continue to support official vs. the long-standing "smug" image. However, I think the March discussion (not sure why people are calling it an RFC, but it was not) was fairly handled and the consensus properly read. I do not see the 4 votes against noted by others. The IP user 68.189.2.14 for example was FOR the change, and is noted in this discussion as being against. The STATUSQUO argument here is bad faith attempt to over throw consensus after failure to do so through MANY discussions. Also, if you want to change the photo, open a discussion with ONE alternate to the existing. Offering multiples splits the votes and encourages people to say "I like #4 the best but 3 and 6 are also good" and how the hell do you read consensus with 20 comments like that? GreatCaesarsGhost 14:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
• Seeing the multiple arguments/RfC’s for a new Trump portrait in the info box. I believe a RCV based runoff should be used to determine which photo is the best from the users. Qutlooker (talk) 13:42, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
• I think there are a lot of confusing malformed RFCs, official or not, formed by all sorts of users (including sockpuppets), that makes it impossible to really gain any consensus. I do think the status quo is the more recent photo, not the official 7 year old White House photo. In order to get a more codified answer to whether people prefer that image or not, I think the only clear way to do it is an RFC which only has two choices - the old photo, and SOME newer one, TBD later. Another option would be a ranked choice method of determining the photo to use, but I believe that is what resulted in the status quo photo, more or less. The current discussions feel like WP:BLUDGEONING and WP:TENDITIOUS at the very least. There have been at least 3 near-identical RFCs all with the goal of undoing the previously established consensus; when one does not succeed, it seems another is created. Tduk (talk) 19:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

  When we start RfC, I think the option below official vs. the long-standing "smug" image and other two of the images below would be reasonable. I would like to suggest the format below opposing candidate - for comparision.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 20:37, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

  There is no need to include the other two images, and it obfuscates the issue in my opinion. There is no need to even include the other image, the goal is to disprove the previous consensus that people did not want the 7 year old image. To include any other goal would be a distraction and possibly alter the results. Tduk (talk) 20:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback. To respect the preferences of other users, I believe it’s reasonable to include the most-voted photos so far. Ultimately, the decision rests with the Wikipedia community. If a new, better image emerges, we can consider it during a future RFC process. Please suggest us better images of both candidates. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 23:47, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:STATUSQUO -1 and Alternative Options.

• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  Official Portrait October 6, 2017 (2017-10-06); 7 years, 2 months ago (Option 1)
• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 2)
• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 3)
• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  October 10, 2023 (2023-10-10) (Option 4)

RfC: Infobox Trump's main photo

Hello, Regarding Trump's main photo of "2024 United States presidential election", there were several discussions previously. - example link: Talk:2024_United_States_presidential_election/Archive_7 I'd like to confirm which photos can be used. I've included the top-voted options based on my understanding, but I think limiting it to three additional choices will give us the most efficient results. If a new, better image emerges, we can compare it after this RFC process

• For this RFC process, I propose that we only allow users to vote for one best photo for the Infobox Trump's main photo. This will simplify calculations, as it's easier to determine the winner based on a single vote per user.

• Official

>Every U.S. elections always using official portrait but not in presidential primaries, for example, in 1992 and 1996, Bill Clinton's official portrait was used for 2 times although two times were sequence 4 years ago. weakness of this photo: considering that the age is a concern among some voters, the images of relatively recent can minimise that concern. Trump's 2017 portrait doesn't show a drastically different Trump/no change in appearance.

• Option1

>the long-standing "smug" image; This can be seen as an unkind and arrogant, but on the other hand, it can be seen as a confident looking

• Option2

>it is smiling freindly photo with his face,like Kamala but Trump's expression in the his body is tilted to the left instead of facing the camera.

• Option3

>it is smiling freindly photo and suitable camerawork - example: at eye level, face and body facing camera and he is also smiling like Kamala but there's just an impression that makes him look uneasy. (Above description: I've compiled a summary of some users feedback.) Goodtiming8871 (talk) 23:47, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Courtesy pings to those who participated in previous discussions or expressed interest in the Infobox Main photo. @Super Goku: @GhulamIslam: @Vrrajkum: @Maximus: @Geffery2210: @JFHutson: @InterDoesWiki: @Prcc27:@LawNerd123: @Herostratus: @Nojus R: @Yeoutie: @Calibrador: @TDKR Chicago 101: @GreatCaesarsGhost: @Sthubertliege: @Memevietnam98: @WorldMappings: @Qutlook: @GoodDay: @Tduk:

Official and Three alternative options.

• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  Official Portrait October 6, 2017 (2017-10-06); 7 years, 2 months ago (Official)
• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 1)
• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 2)
• 
  March 5, 2021 (2021-03-05) (opposing candidate - for comparision)
• 
  October 10, 2023 (2023-10-10) (Option 3)

Voting Section

Comment - I don't think this is a useful question; none of the photos are from this year, and all of the photos that aren't the 2017 photo are fairly similar, so the !votes will go either to the 2017 photo or the recent photos. This is also at least the 5th time these exact 4 photos have been suggested, and each time it is not a useful exercise. There needs to be a truly meaningful attempt to determine if consensus has changed from the (until recently changed) 2023 photo that was in use, hopefully by an as-yet-uninvolved party. I suggested a simple "use the 2017 photo or a more recent photo" poll first to make the issues more clearly separated but this advice has so far been ignored. Tduk (talk) 02:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I say we use the 2017 portrait, but that's just my opinion. Lostfan333 (talk) 03:44, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion about 2017 portrait Goodtiming8871 (talk) 03:55, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

The Offical Portrait is my pick. InterDoesWiki (talk) 04:45, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

• Official portrait For the sake of consistency and to avoid another debate about which candid pick to use. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 06:32, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment – if you can only vote for one out of 4 options, does this not create a spoiler effect? If half of the people do not want the official portrait and half do, doesn't the half that doesn't want the official portrait split their vote between the three other options? DimensionalFusion (talk) 11:57, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

No. You are creating a false grouping of three of the options literally defined as "not the fourth option." If anything, a spoiler effect is created favor the current image (option 1) as any other option would need the super majority we call consensus to win. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

The explanation of user:GreatCaesarsGhost is Correct, That is RCV based runoff, the winner is the one with the most votes among the four options. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 14:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Option 1 is not the current image. It was for whatever reason already replaced with the 2017 photo DimensionalFusion (talk) 23:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I support the official image. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Why aren’t there any photos with Trump having a neutral facial expression? And why is a photo proposed by a sockpuppet one of the options? Prcc27 (talk) 18:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

• Official, the only normal looking photo. He looks pretty much the same age in all these photos. The main difference is that his head is tilted weirdly in the "option 1," and he just looks extremely weird in the other two. --JFHutson (talk) 18:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment – I don't like any of these options.

• I don't understand the support for the official portrait when the Age and health concerns about Donald Trump are a very real part of the election. Trump is 78 but was 71 when the official photo was taken, which is a big difference, even without taking his age and health concerns into account.
• Option 1 (the smug one) has an odd camera angle (seemingly taken from beneath?), Trump's eyes seem to be not matching his face and body making him seem to look down despite facing forwards, and he isn't smiling so much as doing some form of smug look.
• Option 2 also seems to have been taken from below, and Trump's face is not facing the same way as his body and his smile is slanted.
• Option 3 has good camerawork but he just looks wrong, somehow. In a way I can't describe.

I've attached an image I cropped into a 3:4 portrait which is similar to what I think a portrait should be (not suggesting it would be, he is slightly looking away from the camera and not smiling very much)

My personal criteria for a portrait is that: a portrait should...

• represent his age as of the election
• have the camera at (or seem to be at) eye level
• have him smiling (ideally with teeth to match Kamala's but not strictly necessary)
• have his body and head facing forwards

DimensionalFusion (talk) 19:39, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Age and Health Concerns are 100% a part of this election. However- this wikipedia article is not here to express an opinion on that. Just my reason why I'm tossing out any personal opinions and just looking at the portraits as 1) Which one is the best photo and 2) which one best matches Kamala's portrait. (IE- which 2 photos are the most similar and thus least biased.) We could get into such deep waters if we tried to get concensus on what a portrait should ~say~ about a candidate. Trust me- I would love to see one that highlights the fake tan and has one of his ridiculous faces..... but thats how I see him, thats not, necessarily, how history will see him, nor is it how an unbiased person would see him. But I do like your suggested portrait here.... maybe not for the top of the article- but in general- good photo to show his age, but not make him look . . . off kilter. Nightenbelle (talk) 20:12, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Nightenbelle, this picture isn't presidential election infobox material, but it could definitely be used for something. My opinion of course. InterDoesWiki (talk) 21:10, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

In regards to your thoughts on the 2017 photo: obviously it’s not Wikipedia’s job to form an opinion, but it is its job to be accurate.

I think it would be misleading to show Trump as being younger than he actually is, because that, too, sends an opinion. So I think we should put up a recent image - for fairness, perhaps one from 2021 as that’s when Kamala’s picture was taken? DimensionalFusion (talk) 23:39, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

To my eye he looks younger in this than the official portrait. So I don’t see the advantage of this picture. His eyes are also dark. Between that and not smiling, it’s not an improvement. — JFHutson (talk) 21:11, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I never suggested it as an improvement, noting that he’s not staring directly at the camera and not smiling as much as he should be in an info box photo. I said something like that - such a photo could be on commons right now for all we know DimensionalFusion (talk) 23:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok rereading your comment I guess you are not proposing we use this photo? I can agree that your criteria are good. I guess where we disagree is whether a 7 year old photo can “represent his age at the election”. I think the White House photo does this well because he looks so similar to how he did seven years ago. — JFHutson (talk) 23:28, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Based on the non-free images I’ve seen lately of him (such as on Getty images) - he doesn’t look great. I’d include them here for reference but that would of course be a copyvio but I can say that in my opinion he looks significantly older than in 2017. That’s why I oppose the 2017 photo so much – I do think it would be misleading to present Trump as being younger than he actually is DimensionalFusion (talk) 23:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate the breadth and nuance of your argument, but we have to choose a photo that actually exist. We cannot display a hypothetical photo "like X, but with slight variation." Saying none of the options is acceptable is non-productive and off-topic. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• Official Personal opinions and preferences aside, I think the official portrait is most appropriate for 2 main reasons. 1- it is the "Official" portrait- its how he and his campaign have chosen to represent him- and in the general article on this election- why would we stray from official portraits for the main portrait? Use other photos in other articles or in other places in this article- but for the main photo- let’s keep it simple and use the main portrait for both of them. Secondly- this photo and the other photo are good comparisons. Both candidates are in similar poses, zoom is similar, they are both well-made portraits. There is little room for bias between the two- we can't say we're sending any hidden signals by using such similar portraits. Thats my s cents :-) Nightenbelle (talk) 20:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

  I haven't seen the White House photo - which is only being called "official" because people have started calling it that - used in any recent Trump material - can someone show someplace it's been used officially by the Trump campaign? That might be helpful. Tduk (talk) 21:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment (2) I don’t think the portraits need to be equal as has been suggested previously. Just because Kamala is smiling in her portrait does not mean that Trump MUST smile in his portrait too. For example, 2008 United States presidential election has Obama not smiling whilst McCain is smiling. We really just need a good picture, not for the two pictures to be equal. DimensionalFusion (talk) 23:44, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed- I'm not so much concerned about matching facial expressions as matching quality and tone. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I like DimensionalFusion’s proposal. It’s newer, professional/presidential, and doesn’t have a cheesy smile. Prcc27 (talk) 20:28, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment I think that a photo for a US presidential election should be balanced against its competitors. I agree with User:Nightenbelle to some extent, and interpret it as follows:

• For a presidential election photo, the photo officially selected by the US White House is appropriate.
• Since Kamala Harris, Trump's competitor, also used the best photo among her many photos, if there is a photo that matches the competitor in terms of 1) pose, 2) eye level, 3) zoom, 4) face angle, and 5) photo quality, it is fair to use that photo.
• In other words, if Kamala Harris used Official portrait of Kamala Harris and used a photo that can determine the image of the person through the quality of at least 5 of the factors that determine the quality of a photo , then since Wikipedia is in the public domain, I think it is fair for Donald Trump, Kamala's competitor, to also use Official portrait of Donald Trump in the article of 2024 United States presidential election. If you use a non-official photo between two competitors in the public domain, I think it would be fair to find a suitable photo among the unofficial photos on the right example, such as Kamila Harris's one of the photos, to avoid giving one side a disadvantage from the WP:NPOV perspective.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 00:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Still think official portrait should be the one that's used. Calibrador (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• Official The flag in the background should match that in Kamala's portrait, which is equally "polished". Senorangel (talk) 04:17, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Vance photo

Should JD Vance's photo be changed to a cropped version in the republican nominee infobox? Given Trump and Harris both have cropped versions of their respective portraits? Jostlinggav (talk) 06:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I went ahead and changed the picture to a cropped version of his official portrait. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 23:52, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

In the Kennedy section, mention that he remains on the ballot in some states

I would edit the main article if I could, but I can't, so I'll make the suggestion here - I suggest editing the Kennedy paragraph under withdrawn candidates to mention that he remains on the ballot in a handful of states, despite withdrawing. Fryedk (talk) 17:06, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I've added it. Thanks, David O. Johnson (talk) 17:20, 3 September 2024 (UTC)