Talk:Franciscans

I would eliminate the word extravagance

The entry has a sentence now that states "The name of the original order, Ordo Fratrum Minorum (Friars Minor, literally 'Order of Lesser Brothers') stems from Francis of Assisi's rejection of extravagance."

I do not think extravagance is the correct word: on dictionary definition is that extravagance is "lacking restraint in spending money or using resources". But Francis had an aversion to luxury and worldy goods that grant the appearance of wealth: attach oneself to the "majori" or the upper classes as opposed to the "minori". Hence he disdained his patrimony, not because it was extravagant, but because it was wordly wealth. I did not find the word extravagant in the footnote cited for this section. I am going to change it to the word "luxury". You can pay for luxury at a reasonable or extravagant cost; Francis would object to both. I know it is a minor, but in reality a substantial difference. Rococo1700 (talk) 15:10, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Johnbod (talk) 18:00, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree also. Carlstak (talk) 23:18, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Not exclusively Catholic

The wording in the introduction has been changed twice to describe Franciscans as exclusively Catholic, but the article contains mention of numerous protestant and ecumenical Franciscan orders. The exclusive Catholic language seems, therefore, inappropriate. Certainly *most* Franciscans are Catholic, but it feels like this might be a weird political thing playing out in the edits re: only Catholic Franciscans being "real" Franciscans, a movement which predates the Protestant Reformation. Stevedorex (talk) 15:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

A brief perusal seems to show that Protestants who practice Fransiscan spirituality have no historical connections to Catholic Order, so any mention must be brief as the the subjects would be only tangentially related. Protestant Franciscanism seems to be various revival movements, with such groups or orders dating to the no earlier than the late 1800's to mid 1900's. The article on the subject, Franciscan spirituality in Protestantism, has numerous issues, such as being extremely vague about founding dates and poor citations, so would be difficult to link to in its current form. At most a single sentence, with an appropriate citation, stating that since the 1800's Franciscan-inspired spirituality has been practiced within various Protestant denominations might be appropriate to add somewhere in the Franciscans article here. –Zfish118^⋉talk 16:54, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

There's already an "other Christian traditions" section under the orders section and I think that's fine. I'm mostly objecting to the first sentence, which seems logically inconsistent with the aforementioned subsection.

"The Franciscans are a group of related mendicant religious orders of the Catholic Church."

Why not just lose "of the Catholic Church" since it's unnecessarily and inaccurately exclusive? Or just "predominantly within the Catholic Church?"

While it's true that the protestant Franciscan orders don't have direct historical connections to the Catholic Orders, they're as Franciscan as the various Christian denominations that have no direct historical connection to the Catholic Church are Christian. Stevedorex (talk) 21:46, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

It's pretty clear that this article is about Catholic order; any non-Catholic orders can be mentioned as related, but they aren't the subject of the article. Marcelus (talk) 07:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Per the article itself, it's about a "group of related mendicant religious orders" and the majority of members are Catholic, as in Christianity writ large. Most Catholic orders have their own linked articles, as do most of the protestant orders.

Point of fact, re: that "group of orders" referenced in the article, Eight are Catholic and Thirteen are protestant. If the article truly is about a group of orders, the majority of said orders are Protestant. Stevedorex Stevedorex (talk) 15:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

As a comp, I think it's worth looking at the article for Major League Baseball.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball

Of the 30 teams, only one is in Canada, but the opening description reads "Major League Baseball (MLB) is a professional baseball league and the highest level of organized baseball in the United States and Canada." Stevedorex (talk) 15:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

And just one Catholic order is bigger than all the non-Catholic combined Marcelus (talk) 16:51, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Granted. But it's just as incorrect to say "The Franciscans are a group of related mendicant religious orders of the Catholic Church." as it would be to say "Major League Baseball (MLB) is a professional baseball league and the highest level of organized baseball in the United States."

There are far more protestant Franciscans than there are Canadian MLB teams. Stevedorex (talk) 17:13, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Addenda (to my comments above): There is a sentence in the very first paragraph, a version of which dates to at least 2016, mentioning Protestant groups. Given that the first paragraph defines Franciscans as groups founded by Saint Francis, the brief mention of later groups inspired by Francis but founded centuries later is already quite generous. There are very few, if any, WP:Independent sources separate from Protestant groups that assert the notability of the Protestant Fransiscan movement. At most each source is the official website of an individual group, with limit data about its history or number of members. –Zfish118^⋉talk 16:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Important correction, here. Francis only founded the *first* and *third* orders. The second order (Poor Clares) was founded by Saint Clare. Even among the original Catholic orders, there's one inspired by Francis but founded by someone else.

But the first paragraph is kind of my whole point. It's contradictory because the first sentence describes Franciscans, without qualification, as "Catholic" then goes on to describe the protestant groups. The paragraph, as it stands, is self-contradictory. Honestly, I think it would be better, if you're going to define "Franciscan" as exclusively meaning "Catholic Franciscan", to edit the entire article for consistency because the self-contradictory language is confusing.

But OFM, the original and largest order, doesn't use the word "Catholic" on their about page, so what's the justification or citation for its use here?

https://ofm.org/en/the-order.html

They are obviously Catholic, as are most Franciscans, I'm not disputing that. But OFM sees the Franciscan family as inclusive of protestant Franciscans and is careful to include them.

Elsewhere on OFM's page:

"In this broad sense, therefore, today, the Franciscan Family includes Orders, both religious and lay, Congregations or Religious Institutes for women and men, monasteries of Poor Clares and Conceptionists, Secular Institutes, and also groups or movements inspired by Francis of Assisi. It should also not be forgotten that there are Anglican Franciscans and Lutheran Franciscans worldwide."

https://ofm.org/en/the-franciscan-family.html

OFM itself isn't asserting Catholic exclusivity over the identity of "Franciscan," so what's the basis for asserting it, without citation, here? Stevedorex (talk) 18:26, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Saint Clare was a contemporary and life long friend of Saint Francis. The historical connection between the Franciscans and Poor Clares is pretty clear. The connection between Protestant Fransicans and the Catholic groups is tenuous at best. The sources for Protestant groups make no assertion of a historic connection to the Catholic groups. The OFM Conventional is actually the oldest extant contemporary Fransiscan order. The Order of Friars Minor (Observant) today is the result of merger of several smaller independent Fransiscan orders in the late 1880's. –Zfish118^⋉talk 17:48, 17 April 2024 (UTC)