Talk:Sign of the horns

Apana mudra

This is not what is known as the Apana Mudra in Hinduism. Mudras control prana by touching tips or bases of fingers. Sign of horns does it not. Miodrag1963 (talk) 01:07, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Satanism

Amazing that this sign is popularly connected with satanism and this doesn't feature in the article at all. Aleister Crowley was photographed doing it - so it has some genuine currency in Thelema. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4C8:141A:B799:1:2:FE08:DEB2 (talk) 10:42, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Crowley is actually pictured making a gesture with the thumbs of both hands at once projecting sideways from his head.

Nuttyskin (talk) 02:11, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Wicca?

The sign of the horns is used during religious rituals in Wicca, to invoke or represent the Horned god.

Is it, really? Because, I've never heard anything about this, and I have a moderate degree of familiarity with Wicca. Nuttyskin (talk) 02:13, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Marlon Brando

Years ago I made an edit to Wiki when I noticed that the first representation of the horns gesture in modern media was by Marlon Brando during the film 'Guys And Dolls'. I added my oservation to Wikipedia and speculated as to its meaning. Other instances of the gesture in media were later added, chronologically, but over time the chronological order was not maintained, and I believe that is to the detriment of the article. I recently learned more about the sign, from a programme on Italian art and culture by Anthony Graham-Dixon and realised that my speculation was ill-informed. Further reading of the Wiki article confirmed this, so I made the following edit to my article:

I moved my comment on Brando to the top of the section to return the examples to a chronological order. I also changed the following speculation I made: "seeming to indicate it was a sign for snake eyes in the craps game he is playing for the gamblers' souls", for a more informed opinion: "seeming to indicate the Italian gesture, the 'corna', to ward off the bad luck of snake eyes in the craps game he is playing for the gamblers' souls".

For some reason my edit has been reverted. I believe that my edit improved the accuracy and coherance of the article, so to undo it was counterproductive, incoherent, and inaccurate. I appeal to Vaselineeeeeeee to reconsider their undo of my update

Please provide a third party reliable source to support your claim (there wasn't one, so thats why it was removed and it will always be removed if one is not included with the claim) Thank you, - FlightTime (open channel) 15:45, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

You do not specify which claim was unsourced. I will assume it is the comment that he is "seeming to indicate the Italian gesture, the 'corna'". My comment that Marlon Brando is making the 'corna' is supported by the Wiki article itself, which discusses the 'corna', (as I have previously said), whereas my previous speculation "seeming to indicate it was a sign for snake eyes" is not sourced, it is just my speculation. By reverting to my speculation you have removed a change that is supported by other comments within the article iself. In your reasoning for removing my edit you have made the very same error yourself, and replaced my update with unsourced speculation. I appeal to you to see the illogicality of your actions and allow my edit to stand, as it is consitent with the article itself, and was made specifically to remove my original unsourced speculation. As for reverting to an unchronological order. You make no comment upon that, but my changes improved the article and their removal has had the opposite effect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.252.101.70 (talk) 16:40, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Not to be confused with ILY sign

This article needs a statement at the top to distinguish it from the ASL ILY sign. Katabatic03 (talk) 03:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Added. If some objects, they can revert and discuss here. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 14:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

John Lennon

Lennon isn't making this exact gesture on that record cover. The back of his hand is forward and the thumb is extended to the side. Bizzybody (talk) 01:15, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Should the “This article needs additional citations for verification.” box be removed?

I think it has enough additional citations since 2013 Justanotherguy54 (talk) 02:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Heavy metal culture

The source for Geezer Butler making the sign in a photograph in 1969 is an online fan site (footnote 19). The new Geezer Butler autobiography "Into the void : from birth to Black Sabbath and beyond" / Geezer Butler. New York : Dey St., 2023. ISBN: 9780063242500 includes the photo among the pages of plates in the middle of the book and gives the date as 1968. Maybe this should be considered the more authoritative source and the citation updated? 68.65.37.30 (talk) 16:51, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

In his book, Geezer Butler details how he passed the horn idea to Ronnie. He says this happened after their second gig together, which would have been in April 1980. "Ronnie said to me 'Do you mind if I do that thing you do, instead of flashing peace signs?' He meant the devil horn sign, that I'd been doing since the sixties and mainly used onstage when we were playing 'Black Sabbath.' I gave Ronnie my blessing and he started flashing devil horn signs all over the place. It soon became his 'thing,' which was fine by me."

Sources:

"Into the void : from birth to Black Sabbath and beyond" / Geezer Butler. New York : Dey St., 2023. ISBN: 9780063242500

https://ultimateclassicrock.com/black-sabbath-heaven-hell-tour-ronnie-james-dio/ 2600:1700:3FB0:4AE0:6C5A:9E2C:B5C:1A87 (talk) 19:19, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect statement about John Lennon

The “Heavy metal culture” section says that “Although The Beatles aren’t directly associated with heavy metal, John Lennon can be seen doing the "horn-sign" in a photograph already two years prior to Butler. The photoshoot was done for the promotion for their upcoming cartoon movie Yellow Submarine in late 1967. The official movie poster of 1968 showing the Beatles in cartoon form depicts Lennon performing the same gesture.” However, Lennon wasn’t doing the Sign of the Horns in that photo. He was doing the “I love you” hand sign, as you can see here: https://www.discogs.com/release/3082935-The-Beatles-Yellow-Submarine

Lennon’s thumb was clearly sticking out in that photoshoot. However, if the picture was trimmed down, his thumb could’ve been cut out, and I can see how that could’ve lead to some people thinking he was doing the Sign of the Horns even though he wasn’t, and that was probably what lead to his cartoon depiction doing the Sign of the Horns, which was *not* “the same gesture” he did in that photoshoot. 2600:100A:B1C8:DB7:582E:EA9A:5FE5:35D2 (talk) 05:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)