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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 45

< Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association
Latest comment: 9 months ago by Sbaio in topic Colors in team season lists
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Player positions from basketball-reference.com

Latest comment: 1 year ago17 comments6 people in discussion

Basketball-reference.com lists a player's position(s) at the top of their profile. It also shows "Play-by-Play" percentage breakdowns, often showing the player showing some small percentage of time at positions not listed at the top of their profile. For example, at Max Christie (basketball), a user added small forward to his infobox. At the top of his b-r.com profile, it only shows SG. However, its play-by-play section shows him playing 26% at SF.

Should these minor positions be added to the infobox? My understanding was that we would only list major positions that b-r.com shows at the top of the page. For example, Draymond Green has never been shown at center on WP, even though he spends time there.—Bagumba (talk) 13:47, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

This particular editor made such changes to many NBA player pages. For example, Jimmy Butler has played 49% at SF, 34% at SG and 16% at PF (regular season), and 53% at SF, 21% at SG and 26% at PF (playoffs). All three positions (SF, SG and PF) are shown at the top of his Basketball-Reference page but just SF and PF are shown in the infobox. In this edit the same editor cited WP:NBAPOSITION for such changes. – sbaio 14:04, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
I believe it should be limited to the position/s that Basketball Reference lists in the bio. To further the Christie example, he is listed in the play-by-play section as being used at power forward more than shooting guard in the playoffs so peculiarities such as this would be increasingly pedantic and ultimately inaccurate. CalDoesIt (talk) 15:39, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
@CalDoesIt: To be clear, by "limited to the position/s that Basketball Reference lists in the bio", you mean what they list at the top, correct? —Bagumba (talk) 17:42, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
@Bagumba Correct. CalDoesIt (talk) 02:14, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
62% at SF actually. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 00:03, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
  • 68% at SF. Correction
ReaganHoang10 (talk) 00:03, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

There's also the case of DeMar DeRozan. He's listed on NBA.com as "Guard-Forward". But ReaganHoang10 removed "shooting guard" with edit summary "Hasn’t really played SG since 2018-19 season". [1] My understanding is that we have at least listed what their current team lists them as at NBA.com. If not, what is the objective criteria to override it?—Bagumba (talk) 04:05, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

People think they should list shooting guard/forward when there’s three positions. I wanted three specific positions in the infobox. I clearly explained that I would rather have two specific positions rather than have a vague position in the infobox. Plus, he hasn’t really played SG since 2018-19 according to the play-by-play section. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 14:50, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
We list what the sources say and not your personal preference. You ought to reconsider your approach regarding positions. – sbaio 02:45, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
Given the lack of consensus to remove a position cited at NBA.com and b-r.com, I reverted the removal. —Bagumba (talk) 01:56, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
I also reverted the similar recent unexplained edit by ReaganHoang10 to remove guard from Andre Iguodala. —Bagumba (talk) 01:58, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
You know what, Fuck it at this point. I want a consensus change. ReaganHoang10 (talk) 02:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
You can absolutely argue for a change in consensus, just stop crying if it doesn’t happen. Your act is getting really old. Wikipedia is a voluntary activity Rikster2 (talk) 20:19, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
Out of curiousity, why are we using basketball-reference.com as the main guide to player positions? I would think if a player is a guard 70% of the time and a forward 30%, he would be listed as G/F, but that's just my opinion. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 16:26, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
...why are we using basketball-reference.com as the main guide...: We also use NBA.com per WP:NBAPOSITION.—Bagumba (talk) 16:52, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

ReaganHoang10 is once again ignoring other editors and is edit warring. For example, at Jimmy Butler's page where Underbelly 50 restored the last stable version, but ReaganHoang10 just reverted to his preferred version. I have warned ReaganHoang10 for his continued behavior. – sbaio 06:53, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Recognized content subpage

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Is there any opposition to creating a subpage for the recognized content like many other wikiprojects have? That way JL-Bot updates the content including good and featured articles weekly, instead of editors having to do it by hand, which makes it easier to miss things.

I mostly bring this up because the main page currently only lists 85/135 GAs and is missing a couple pages in other sections as well. -- ZooBlazertalk 21:50, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made the page. It can be found right here. The bot should run in a few days and add all the current recognized content as long as the pages have {{WikiProject National Basketball Association}} on their talk pages. If it's done right and others agree, it can be added to the main page of the WikiProject or at the very least linked to. -- ZooBlazertalk 06:15, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

List of NBA regular season records

Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments3 people in discussion

List of NBA regular season records has bloated again in size, almost doubling its size from two weeks ago. What do yall think of the recent changes? Engr. Smitty Werben 23:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I'd at least cut back on the overly-specific "ESPN stats" ("Only players to average 33 minutes or more at age 39 or older"). Zagalejo (talk) 05:51, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
"Most wedgies (basketball stuck between rim and backboard)" Seriously? How is that even a relevant record lol. Dieter Lloyd Wexler 16:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Overcategorization?

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Does anyone think Category:National Basketball Association first-overall draft picks is necessary (improper use of hyphen aside)? SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Arguably meets WP:CATDEF.—Bagumba (talk) 05:27, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Kyrie Irving

Latest comment: 1 year ago18 comments5 people in discussion

Nationality in basketball infobox has always shown FIBA eligibility (“national team”) but now a NA tribe is being added as a third entry. There are no FIBA entries for tribes. I am not going to WP:RRR but this issue needs to be resolved. Perhaps the field name should be changed to clearly state “FIBA affiliation” or something similar. Rikster2 (talk) 06:09, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Even Australia has crept back in, when the previous consensus at Talk:Kyrie Irving § Nationality was to exclude it. Incidentally, I don't think there's necessarily consensus to only limit it to the national team. For example, at Giannis Antetokounmpo, there's enough coverage about his Nigerian citizenship, and he's publicly identified as both Greek and Nigerian. Both are listed.—Bagumba (talk) 06:28, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style and WP:CONLEVEL: "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope." Per WP:TRIBE and MOS:CITIZEN, his Standing Rock Sioux Tribal citizenship is not a racial term and is not implied by simply being "American". Native tribes are sovereign nations and it's sourced within the article that he's a citizen of that tribal nation. The infobox for NATIONALITY is under the Personal Information heading, not necessarily related to his qualifications of which team he plays basketball. These Wikipedia policies cannot be override by editors in this discussion, it would have to be taken up by as a policy change to all of Wikipedia.  oncamera  (talk page) 06:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
The intent of the Nationality field was to denote countries a player suits up for in FIBA competition. If the field is redefined for its original purpose - OR ELIMINATED ALTOGETHER since it is only used about half the time anyway if the birth country is the same - then it is not going against anything. No one said the article should not mention it since it is sourced. Rikster2 (talk) 07:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
I don't believe there is a community consensus on handling dual nationalities. Per MOS:CONTEXTBIO:

The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable...Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability.

It does not say we must exhaustively list all of a person's nationalities. The spirt of the guideline is to list the one (or those) from which they receive their core notability.—Bagumba (talk) 07:50, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
First consensus in this group doesn't override the MOS policies on Wikipedia about how nationality is included. And there has been significant coverage of his Native American citizenship and he incorporates it into his ongoing basketball activities through comments to the media, wearing cultural items to games, smudging before games, honoring his ancestors through his gear. He is active in his community as well. MOS:CONTEXTBIO includes Native American citizenship examples. Secondly, he was born in Australia, so it's not easily implied that he also has Standing Rock and American citizenship besides his Aussie citizenship by simply looking at place of birth. All should be listed in his case. There's no need for erasure of his Native American heritage or Aussie citizenship because of a personal preference for FIBA. Everything in regards to his career in the infobox is clearly labeled in the career section, including FIBA nationality is described in the medal infobox (Olympics, World Cup etc), which is different than Personal Information nationalities.  oncamera  (talk page) 08:16, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Please point to the MOS that requires that multiple nationalities always be included in the lead sentence. Also, I didn't refer to FIBA. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 09:14, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
I must note that this particular editor has been doing this since 2021 (despite the consensus being to only list the "American" nationality). Therefore, this behavior looks like WP:LTA given the length of it (or WP:DISRUPTIVE at least). And no, I am not going to discuss this further, because I rarely edit basketball-related pages these days and this WikiProject along with certain pages are on my watchlist. – sbaio 11:37, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Wikiprojects consensus does not override Wikipedia policies. This "FIBA nationality" is a clear Wikiproject specific "rule" and goes against the linked policies. I can open up a case about this on one of the admin noticeboards to get more outside input.  oncamera  (talk page) 15:10, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

There is no place in MOS that mandates use of nationality, citizenship or anything similar in the infobox. If this project chooses to eliminate the use or create a field for FIBA affiliation that is our business (with proper consensus of course). Rikster2 (talk) 11:57, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

That's clearly against WP:CONLEVEL to make Wikiproject-specific rules to MOS:CITIZEN.  oncamera  (talk page) 15:12, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Comment it is absolutely not against WP:CONLEVEL to remove nationality as a field in this infobox. It is also not against it to add a field the denotes FIBA eligibility. You are simply mistaken or misunderstand. I am not talking about redefining citizenship/nationality for this project. Rikster2 (talk) 19:51, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
You quite clearly agreed at Talk:Kyrie Irving/Archive 1#Lakota heritage to not list Lakota or anything similar in the infobox after Rikster2 wrote basically the same in that discussion as here. I advise you to stop your edit warring, because you are already at WP:3RR. – sbaio 15:40, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
That's an outdated discussion, my opinion has changed since then, especially with clarification about Native identities on Wikipedia and better awareness of policies. I'll bring this discussion to outside attention since this Wikiproject is being problematic about policies.  oncamera  (talk page) 15:45, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Can someone provide a link to the discussion in this Wikiproject that shows consensus on that to limit to nationality in the personal section to national team? Bagumba mentioned there was no consensus to actually to do. I'll link to it in upcoming noticeboard discussion for quick reference.  oncamera  (talk page) 15:52, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Interestingly, the soccer player infobox does not list such information; instead it lists the national teams (including under-xx ones) the player had played for. Perhaps basketball should do the same?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Howard the Duck (talk • contribs) 19:58, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I would be in favor of some form of that, though sometimes the soccer format gets clunky if the player was a member of national teams at multiple levels (see Michael Owen). But right now the current basketball version only shows medals, so for a player like Hanno Möttölä who was on Finland’s national team for 20 years (but never medaled) shows nothing in the infobox about his significant national team career Rikster2 (talk) 20:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
We could treat national team appearances as "club teams" just as how the soccer infobox does it. The opposite argument is basketball fans generally do not treat national team competitions as more important, or even as important, than club competitions. Howard the Duck (talk) 20:11, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

NBA All-Star records for career averages, percentages

Latest comment: 1 year ago4 comments2 people in discussion

I saw that at Giannis Antetokounmpo § Regular season, he's marked as the ASG career record holder for points per game. However, there doesn't seem to be a standard for minimums. The NBA doesn't seem to publish an annual official guide anymore, so its unclear how they track this "record", if at all (anymore). At basketball-reference.com, they have a 3 game minimum.[2] At landofbasketball.com, Jaylen Brown is shown as the leader, but their minimum is 3 games or 50 points.[3]

Honestly, I think ASG career records for rates are trivial, and not defining. Totals like points, assists, games played are more oft-mentioned. I'd propose not marking them for that reason alone, but then there's also the issue of no consistent authority on the minumum requirements. —Bagumba (talk) 09:58, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Why are all-star stats in the regular season section? Shouldn't that be on a separate section altogether? I do see this is being done for all players who had appeared on an ASG. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
Seems like it's been placed w/ reg season for the longest time at Wikipedia:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Style advice § NBA statistics—Bagumba (talk) 13:33, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
Yeah my suggestion of listing it on a separate section seems like a bad one if we'd list ASG stats per appearance. I suppose this is the best way to deal with it, but we should follow on how WP:RS determines how the record is tracked. Howard the Duck (talk) 16:41, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Richard Hamilton page move request

Latest comment: 11 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There is a move request to move Richard Hamilton (basketball) to Rip Hamilton. Please join the discussion at Talk:Richard Hamilton (basketball)#Requested move 10 December 2023 if you are interested. Rikster2 (talk) 21:51, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Request for consensus - achievements included in infobox

Latest comment: 11 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I am hoping for consensus to an addendum to the infobox basketball biography awards section. Please weigh in here to help reach a go/no go decision. Thanks Rikster2 (talk) 22:34, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Team navbox links - template creep

Latest comment: 11 months ago5 comments3 people in discussion

There was never a formal consensus on whether individuals should be on team navboxes, from what I can find in the WT:NBA archives. {{Phoenix Suns}} caught my eye. Do we really need (want) 11 individuals on this? Not only is it WP:TEMPLATECREEP but it will inevitably be WP:RECENT bias, as nobody alive today can truly speak to the firsthand historical significance of a player many many decades ago.

Thoughts on going through the team navboxes with swift and decisive red pens, and deleting all of the individuals listed in "Culture and lore"? SportsGuy789 (talk) 03:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

No objection from me. —Bagumba (talk) 10:22, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Does that include retired numbers? I think it’s a little much to have team infoboxes on player pages. You may recall we created the NBA coach history templates to get the franchise templates off coach pages. Rikster2 (talk) 12:17, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Ideally, each team would have a standalone list of the team's retired numbers, which should meet WP:LISTN. Then the navbox could just link to the retired numbers page.—Bagumba (talk) 13:46, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
That's what I was thinking too. Or to be even more condensed and navigable, one large LISTN article with subsections for each team's retired numbers. Maybe that'd be too big of an article, I dunno, but either way I'm w/Rikster2 and don't think a team navbox should be on an individual player's article. SportsGuy789 (talk) 22:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Joey Meyer (basketball) recent death main page nomination

Latest comment: 11 months ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Can anyone help me cite the fact that "he is the only coach to win consecutive NBA D-League titles"?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:27, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Seeking input into 'recent' page move

Latest comment: 10 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Howdy. I'm seeking input, concerning a 'recent' page move, which involves the NBA. GoodDay (talk) 17:39, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

Latest comment: 10 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There is a move discussion in progress at Talk:NBA Conference Finals which may be of interest to this Wikiproject Jessintime (talk) 04:03, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Articles to create

Latest comment: 10 months ago7 comments2 people in discussion

Hello there, I would like to bring to your attention this extensive (incomplete) list of NBA and WNBA articles that have not yet been created. Please let me know if you would like to participate in these enormous efforts. Your assistance is greatly appreciated if you would like to partake. For the WNBA portion, they are non-existent articles that were already created for their NBA counterpart, and should thus exist for the WNBA as well. Look forward to hearing from you! Thank you for your collaboration,

WNBA articles to create
NBA articles to create

(see: List of National Basketball Association rookie single-season scoring leaders)
(see: List of National Basketball Association rookie single-season rebounding leaders)

(see: List of Major League Baseball records considered unbreakable)

(see: Category:Career achievements of basketball players)

-- BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 06:52, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not so sure if some of those stats list would meet WP:LISTN. For the career achievements pages, be aware that Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Dwyane Wade (2nd nomination) resulted in deletion.—Bagumba (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for the intel. I was not aware of that. BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 07:01, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Let me know your opinion regarding the other WNBA and NBA articles if you would like to share. Thank you, -- BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 07:03, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm not too knowledgeable on WNBA. In any event, WP:LISTN is a the basic notability requirement that applies to all lists.—Bagumba (talk) 07:07, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Okay. For NBA, we have List of National Basketball Association rookie single-season rebounding leaders and List of National Basketball Association rookie single-season scoring leaders but not for assists, steals, and blocks. So notability should not be an issue for this particular case. -- BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 07:12, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps assists. Those other stats are a bit more obscure. If you can source the list to show that the grouping is notable per LISTN, then there's no problem. Otherwise, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a reason to create any random stats list. —Bagumba (talk) 07:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Source help

Latest comment: 10 months ago6 comments2 people in discussion

By my estimation, Jalen Brunson's just ended 5-game 30+ streak was the first by a Knick since Carmelo Anthony's 7-game streak in 2012-13 because neither Porzingis nor Randle has done it as a Knick. I can't find a source that he had 5 in a row. I had a source for 4 in a row and then the 5th game he and Randle both had 30, which became the story. Can anyone help me find a source.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:26, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I found it in this article. However, I don't think it counts as RS. At the bottom of this FantasyPros article - Jalen Brunson scores 21 points Thursday BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 18:48, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
I don't think its an RS either.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:55, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
@TonyTheTiger, Here it is from CBS Sports and Clutch Sports (should be reliable RS?) -> Knicks' Jalen Brunson: Pours in 30 in Tuesday's win and Knicks' Jalen Brunson completes mind-bending streak not seen before in franchise history -- BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 23:44, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
User:BeFriendlyGoodSir, the clutchpoints article says his streak is the longest by a Knicks guard in franchise history, but it is unclear whether they are talking about the 5-game 30+ or the 4-game 30+/50% shooting. So I will go with the CBS source. Thx.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:21, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
I wish there was a good source to clarify whether it is the longest streak by a Knicks guard ever or who was the last Knick to post a longer streak.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:25, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Alperen Şengün

Latest comment: 10 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Alperen Şengün's page needs some serious cleanup (I tagged it). I have cleaned up most of the mess, but other editors are welcome to fix the season-specific sections, because there's too much records and non-notable statistics. I am asking for others to help, because I do not really edit NBA-related pages anymore. Thanks in advance. – sbaio 09:51, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Dispelling all rumors

Latest comment: 10 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I would like to dispell all rumors that there is a relationship between charges drawn and my editorial efforts. Per https://www.nba.com/stats/players/hustle-leaders here are the current NBA leaders in charges drawn

  1. Jalen Brunson-23 (81.3% of text, page creator)
  2. Tim Hardaway Jr.-20 (79.9% of text, page creator)
  3. Moritz Wagner-19 (62.2% of text)

I am not responsible.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:31, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Correlation does not imply causation. Having said that, I think you may be on to something. Can you edit Lebron James article some more... I would like to get his charges drawn count up.. Thanks! BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 23:36, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Stats for players playing for multiple teams in a season

Latest comment: 10 months ago10 comments6 people in discussion

Wouldn't it be much simpler and more aesthetically pleasing (this is subjective though) to just combine season cells for players who played for two or more teams in a season, instead of having two cells? And why use {{nbay|2021|nolink=y}} anyway if you can just type 2021–22 which is much simpler and shorter?

Whatever y'all agree with, I think there should be a consensus (albeit it's something minor/aesthetic) regarding this because there are inconsistencies on how it's done in articles. I see pages combining those cells; I see them not being combined, with both seasons being linked; I also see them not being combined, but only the first mention of a season is linked (like Bagley's example in the first paragraph). Dieter Lloyd Wexler 19:18, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

@Dieter Lloyd Wexler's way is less complicated and more viewer friendly in my opinion. Both seem to get the job done. But if one were to be labelled better than the other... I would have to say Dieter's is the go to. I support the change.BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 19:44, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
I like the example, looks cleaner. I support the change. Rikster2 (talk) 19:52, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
It is not "Dieter's way". Some Chinese editor used to run around and cause havoc in statistics sections in the past. Dieter probably saw it somewhere and just applied it to Bagley's page. I am one of the few editor's that tried to fix it, but these fixes slowly died down since nobody seemed to care (probably one of the reasons why this WikiProject has been fading away for quite some time). – sbaio 19:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
I applied it to Bagley's page cause that's the format I was aware of and was predominantly (I think?) what was done in pages around middle 2010s, then around 2019 to early 2020s I actually started to notice this new way of presenting stuff (separating season cells and wikilinking seasons of G League stints in players' infoboxes), but didn't care enough to make changes lol. Dieter Lloyd Wexler 21:01, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
I support the change, looks cleaner and more viewer friendly. Alvaldi (talk) 20:02, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Is there a disadvantage to combining season cells when a player was with multiple teams?—Bagumba (talk) 03:25, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Good point, what does it do to sorting? Rikster2 (talk) 16:26, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
It still sorts properly. The only change is that the combined cell gets separated into two (if it spans two cells), with both cells having links to the NBA season (similar to Jamario Moon's example above). It all goes back to normal when you refresh the page. Dieter Lloyd Wexler 17:16, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
Semi-related example: at Pac-12 Conference Men's Basketball Player of the Year, the 1994–95 co-winners are grouped. Sorting still works. —Bagumba (talk) 17:35, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Coaches instead of Coordinates

Latest comment: 10 months ago4 comments4 people in discussion

Why are the coordinates of the arena considered an important piece of information on the list of teams? Wouldn't a listing of current Head Coaches make more sense and be more in line with how other sports are formatted? Hawksfan7358 (talk) 01:24, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand your complaint. Can you elaborate and share a hyperlink if necessary? Here is a List of current National Basketball Association head coaches. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:56, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure the editor in question is referring to the list of teams table on the main NBA page.[4] For reference, the MLB and CFL pages have coordinates, the NFL, EPL, and NHL pages don't. To the question. I think it is a bit odd to list coordinates. A linkage to the city and arena should suffice. I think a list of coaches should be a separate page, perhaps ownership would be a better fit. The information was added in 2014 by @Zzyzx11:, with this edit [5]. Maybe they can explain why it was added.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:40, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
I initially did that in 2014 so I could use {{GeoGroup}} to generate a map of all the points, and the ability to export a KML file, along with the other features listed on Template:GeoGroup/doc. My similar additions on the NFL, EPL, and NHL pages were eventually reverted. I will not contest it if they are also reverted on the NBA, MLB and CFL pages too. Zzyzx11 (talk) 04:58, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

NBA player notability

Latest comment: 10 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion

@Alvaldi and Rikster2: (I know you've both done work about notability before) A group of NBA players have been tagged for notability. I know they're notable but don't have the time to find sources to show it. Would anyone here be willing to do it? (Noble Jorgensen, John Mills (basketball), Roger Jorgensen, Coulby Gunther, Harry Zeller) Thanks, BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:13, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I'll probably take a crack at finding sources for them tonight. Alvaldi (talk) 16:59, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
@Alvaldi: More that have been tagged for notability: Howie McCarty, Mike Bytzura, Johnny Malokas, Vito Kubilus. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:11, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

NBA In-Season Tournament in team infobox

Latest comment: 10 months ago18 comments11 people in discussion

Should winning the NBA In-Season Tournament be added to the Los Angeles Lakers infobox? Because Debbie.440937 (talk · contribs) is removing it for the third day in a row (I already warned the editor for edit warring). In addition, a parameter to Template:Infobox NBA season has been added per request at Template talk:Infobox NBA season#Adding NBA Cup championship parameter. – sbaio 20:30, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm the one who requested the parameter get added to the NBA season infobox template because yes, it's a major championship within the context of an NBA season now. It's not going anywhere (Adam Silver stated as much), the players have all bought in, the fans have bought in (tv ratings were historically high for this time of year for NBA games), and just because this year was the first occurrence doesn't mean we should wait until there have been multiple occurrences to include it.
Regarding the Los Angeles Lakers main team infobox, I'm in support of keeping it in. I'd prefer to see it renamed "NBA IST titles" since "NBA Cup" is the name of the trophy itself, but that's a minor point to clarify IMO. SportsGuy789 (talk) 15:09, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Their Basketball Reference franchise page makes no mention of it. I think it's premature to say what it means outside of the context of a season.—Bagumba (talk) 11:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
I question the long-term significance of the in season tourney. It is bigger scope, but it doesn’t really have any impact on the season, just a way to draw interest. Is it really bigger to the NBA than the preseason NIT was in college hoops? Rikster2 (talk) 12:18, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
I suppose footy is a better example, but I know little about it. At least they got the Lakers to shove a banner up for it. —Bagumba (talk) 13:14, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose Do we list the winner of the Maui Invitational or NIT in collegiate infoboxes? (Rhetorical question.)-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 16:13, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
  • Support It is the de-facto men's national cup competition of the United States. Has broad international coverage, something I'm not sure the Maui Invitational or NIT has. Alvaldi (talk) 20:59, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
  • Support I don't think likening it to the pre-season NIT is apples to apples, nor do I think it's equivalent to early season tourneys like the Maui Invitational. Those college tourneys never garnered remotely the same coverage as the NBA IST domestically, let alone globally. The Lakers hung a banner for it. It's not going anywhere, and it will only continue to become more prestigious as years go by. At the end of the day it's an important enough championship to include a gold bar at the top of the team's season infobox. It's for sure a notable achievement. SportsGuy789 (talk) 22:32, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
  • Support: Per Alvaldi and above. The in-season tournament is big enough and generates enough popularity for notability. While it doesn't have the tenure, it has positioned itself to be quite similar to the English soccer equivalent of the FA Cup whereas the NBA season is like the Premier League regular season. As a major, knockout tournament held in-season, with the backing of the league, I view this as an important piece of information for infoboxes. GauchoDude (talk) 12:16, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Just to be clear, this is for the primary team / franchise infobox. Per recent edits at Gabe Vincent, inclusion in a player's infobox as an award / achievement is a completely separate discussion. SportsGuy789 (talk) 15:35, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
It is not particularly similar to the FA Cup. The FA Cup is a knockout which comprises several levels of teams that do not normally play. The in season tournament is just an in season tournament of the same teams who play each other all year long. Rikster2 (talk) 16:51, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Support: The NBA in-season tournament, in its current form, combines elements from various tournaments, like the Supporters' Shield or the Presidents' Trophy, the in-season tournament utilizes a point system derived from regular-season games. It also incorporates features reminiscent of the FA Cup and of the German equivalent, the DFB Pokal, by including a group and knockout stage. These awards are acknowledged in the honors section of the respective teams. The in-season tournament has attracted significant attention domestically, internationally, and within the NBA community. With its own trophy, special ceremonies, dedicated banner, and financial incentives supported by the league, the in-season tournament firmly establishes itself as an exclusive and standalone championship, deserving recognition as such. Raphael North (talk) 17:39, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
  • In addition, Supporters' Shield and Presidents' Trophy are not tournaments. Those are awards given at the end of the regular season to the best team. – sbaio 19:25, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Yes and my first edit on wikipedia. Sorry if my first edit came across as odd. I am from germany and tried to auto translate some of my thoughts, so I understand how it came across as weird. I have followed the discussion surrounding the NBA in-season tournament for a while now and wanted to express my opinion. And you are right Sbaio they are not tournaments - a season award that still gets recognized and as I have said before is not the only element of the nba in-season tournament, that makes it reasonable to add. Raphael North (talk) 19:32, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Support: we should very clearly include it in. As said previously the Lakers hung a banner. I recommend this get entered as the "NBA Cup (2023)" due to IST being too long of a name. 2601:40F:4400:30C0:E44A:F0AC:AE82:71C5 (talk) 20:17, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

OKC Thunder vandalism

Latest comment: 9 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I am just wondering if we can get some watchers on the main Oklahoma City Thunder page? There have always been drive-by editors that insist on splitting the accomplishments of the Seattle SuperSonics (even though by contract, and within-Wikipedia consensus) the history is shared, in additon to other general vandalism regarding the move 16 years ago!-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 15:54, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I protected it for a month. Feel free to go to WP:RPP if it continues after it expires. As for the page, shouldn't there be more clarity specifically on records, as opposed to the open-ended "assets" (which the article refers to)?[6] —Bagumba (talk) 16:46, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
In 2008, the Seattle Times said that the records will be shared. [7]. I will grant WP:OR that in practice it seems that local media doesn't register it. Personally, I really couldn't care less if we keep or don't as long as what we do is accurate and appropriate. These edits though have been a part of a larger pattern of vandalism on the page.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 03:58, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Statue of Kobe Bryant

Latest comment: 9 months ago6 comments3 people in discussion

Why does Statue of Kobe Bryant redirect to National Garden of American Heroes? Vandalism? how do we fix this so we can create an article for Kobe like Statue of Michael Jordan. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 00:47, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

It's not vandalism. The redirect was created in 2021 and technically fit the article. I did change the redirect to Kobe Bryant#Legacy for now though. -- ZooBlazer 00:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Thanks - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 01:03, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
@BeFriendlyGoodSir Did you mean to include non-NBA players in Template:Statues of NBA figures? ---Another Believer (Talk) 01:12, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Good point. I originally named it Template: Statues at NBA Arenas. Fixed it. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 01:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
I created another template called Template:NBA Arena Statues to include non-NBA players. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 01:36, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Help!

Latest comment: 9 months ago4 comments3 people in discussion

User:BeFriendlyGoodSir is creating dozens and dozens of unnecessary draft pages and redirects having to do with the NBA and they refer to this talk page but I don't see a discussion here about the necessity for these redirects. And why are these redirects first created as drafts then moved to main space instead of just creating them in main space? It's over-the-top if you look at their contributions. It would be great if someone who is knowledgeable about the NBA and basketball could review them and tag any that are unnecessary or redundant either for speedy deletion (R3?) or an WP:RFD discussion. Unfortunately, this editor has been abnormally productive today. I've asked them on their talk page to cease but I think I need more help with assessing all of these new creations. Thanks for any assistance you can provide. And if I'm overreacting, just say so. Liz Read! Talk! 04:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@Liz, it is pertaining to this discussion (Talk:National Basketball Association#Requested move 28 February 2024). I was told that redirects were consistent per {{R from initialism}}. I did not realize creating redirects through draft space was going to upset you. I now realize how to create "reasonable" redirects without bothering you... it was my first time trying it. I will do it through the main space next time. Sorry, Liz. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:00, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
@BeFriendlyGoodSir: Appreciate your being conservative, but Drafts is probably too much overhead (other people need to patrol it) for a straightfoward redirect. Yes, be bold, and create it in the main namespace. If you are unsure, you can always create one and ask for feedback before creating en masse. Regards. —Bagumba (talk) 05:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
@Liz: Do you know if there is any existing guidance for newer users on when they can rely less on Draft? I looked at Wikipedia:Article creation, I can't even find explicit instructions on how to create an article directly on mainspace. Best. —Bagumba (talk) 05:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

In-season tournament in player's infobox

Latest comment: 9 months ago34 comments9 people in discussion

This an NBA-specific followup to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball § Awards in infobox. There has been back and forth on current Lakers pages, such as LeBron James. Should the in-season tournament title (and MVP award for James) be in players' infoboxes? —Bagumba (talk) 03:06, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I support having the IST awards in players' infoboxes. I think it is more significant than other awards and achievements mentioned in the infobox. However, I think having IST awards at the top of the info box under the regular Championship and MVP suggested greater importance than it is. IST awards should be placed closer to the bottom of the info box if possible. BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:16, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
For sake of preciseness, what other awards and achievements do you feel the IST award/championship supercede? SportsGuy789 (talk) 20:11, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Good question. Difficult to say. I think determining the relative importance of these awards is very subjective and figuring out the ordering is not an easy pursuit. The regular championship and MVP are undoubtedly the most important of all awards. But beyond that, are the All-Star selections more important than IST championship? How about All-NBA First Team? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 00:20, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
If this ends up being added, probably just lump it with the other items under "Order" 11 at the table at WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS, listing under reverse chrono order. After one year, it's too early to gauge its relative notability to that detail. —Bagumba (talk) 00:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
I support having the IST winners and MVP included in the player infobox, however I feel less strongly about the All-tournament awards. Unlike tournaments such as prior Summer League editions, the IST was not invitational; every team in the league participated and competed for the title. Additionally, teams did not field weakened or developmental rosters. The winning team has hung a banner for it and intends to add to it with future victories. While we only have one winner to go off of for precedent, I would imagine future winners would do something similar. Disregarding an official, non-invitational tournament feels as silly to me as it would to not include actual invitational tournaments like the 3pt contest and Slam-dunk contest in infoboxes. Finally, the league has stated multiple times the tournament is here to stay. Stating it would be better to wait before adding isn’t any more valid than stating we should add them winners and wait to remove them until the league stops hosting the tournament. Gserrato15 (talk) 00:12, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Support: I feel like the Cup is noteworthy enough to be included in player's infoboxes. I'd also like to point out that Basketball Reference recognizes the IST MVP as an award at the top of LeBron's page. HappyBoi3892 (talk) 17:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

NBA mascots

Latest comment: 9 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Half of the NBA mascots in the NBA do not have separate articles or sections (or even mentions) on their respective franchise pages. Template:NBA mascots. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:19, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Nobody is stopping you from creating them.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 05:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

List of National Basketball Association arenas

Latest comment: 9 months ago17 comments5 people in discussion

What do other editors think about adding interior images to List of National Basketball Association arenas? It was added and then I reverted it, but another editor restored it so to avoid any edit wars I want to see opinions here. – sbaio 11:22, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

As I said in my edit summary restoring them, I think they make a good addition. One cannot see both the exterior and interior in one picture, and in many ways the interior is more important because it shows the building actually hosting the sport. Take a look at the corresponding NFL, MLB, and MLS articles, all the pics show the field of play.
as a side note, someone boldly adding something is not by itself a god enough reason to revert. Otherwise the guideline on being bold has zero meaning. oknazevad (talk) 14:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
List of current NFL stadiums, List of current MLB stadiums and List of MLS stadiums are different than what the IP is trying to do for NBA and NHL pages. NFL, MLB and MLS pages have interior images only, while for NBA and NHL it is proposed to use both the exterior and interior images. If it was simply changed to show interior instead of exterior then there would be no objections, but current attempt should be discussed. In addition, most interior images are too old and some venues do not even have NBA interior images. Examples:
...someone boldly adding something is not by itself a god enough reason to revert. – making such a big and possibly controversial update is a very good reason to revert. I would create a discussion to see what other editors think if I wanted to add something like this. – sbaio 18:26, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
@Sbaio, so you disagree with the particular interior images selected? Or you disagree with the idea of adding interior images altogether? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 18:58, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
If it was simply changed to show interior instead of exterior then there would be no objections, but current attempt should be discussed. – I think it is very clear that I oppose usage of both. It is either exterior (as it is now) or interior (oppose it), but certainly not both. – sbaio 17:50, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
That's kinda my point. With the NFL, MLB, and MLS lists, a single image can both show the field of play and the architecturally distinct elements simultaneously, while NBA/NHL arenas can't, so need two pictures to show both. oknazevad (talk) 14:47, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Sbaio, @Oknazevad @80.57.47.217

  • Strongly opposed When I redesigned the pages 10+ years ago [8],[9] (yes, that is my IP address before I created an account) it was with the intention of having exterior images only since interior images all look the same and one cannot tell if you're in New York, Kalamazoo or East Bum-F*** China. The exterior images show architectural style and ambient surroundings. It is also why the page List of indoor arenas in the United States only has exterior images in addition to my placing a note in there to post only exterior images. If you want to post interior images, go to each of the individual pages and create a gallery. As for the MLB, NFL and MLS stadiums, they may be interior images but they also show the exterior surroundings with the exception of domes/retractable roofs.

Roberto221 (talk) 09:50, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I disagree that they all look the same. If you can't see the obvious differences between interiors, that's on you. oknazevad (talk) 14:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Also, as a general comment, you can't ping an IP address. Someone is going to have to drop a note at the IP's talk page to tell them about this discussion. oknazevad (talk) 14:47, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd agree on showing the exterior on the list article, as this is where arenas diverge from each other; arenas with a basketball court fully set-up looks the same inside. It's like a showing a list of photos of football stadiums where you'd realize "all of them have a grassy meadow at the middle"; it's the same with basketball courts, "all of them have wooden floors in the middle", but it's kinda more variable vs. football stadium as courts are colored differently, but still it's showing primarily the same thing. I'd oppose having 2 columns of photos, and since there should only be one, I'd keep the exterior. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:10, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

And yet List of current National Football League stadiums literally just shows interior images of all the stadiums with just a big green field in the middle. oknazevad (talk) 13:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
The same with list of Premier League stadiums; these are boring. WP:OSE, but I'd prefer exterior shots. Howard the Duck (talk) 14:12, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
I'd also imagine interiors of arenas change more frequently than exteriors. For example, the color scheme may change (due to a change in sponsorship), or even the court markings itself and logos may change. Photos in lists like this should strive to be the most current, and exterior shots fulfill this purpose as these do not change that frequently. Howard the Duck (talk) 16:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
True that signage and court designs change frequently. Heck, many NBA teams have multiple courts these days, using which ever one coordinates with the uniform they're wearing for that particular game. My interest in seeing the interior photos is to see the differences in how the arena bowl/tiers are laid out and constructed. There's more variation than one might initially think, especially if comparing an arena that also hosts hockey vs one that's basketball-centric. oknazevad (talk) 22:25, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Choosing a specific interior photo would then not be representative of what an arena looks like on any given day, unlike an exterior shot that rarely changes. If your argument is an interior photo is there to represent how an arena looks like from the inside, then only one won't cut it. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Comment - see List of basketball arenas. Almost all of them are "interior" photos. I do not have an opinion on this. But pointing this out. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 23:15, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
The photo for the very deliciously named KFC Yum! Center is now a teenager. Based on more recent photos, the logo at center court is no longer the one found on the photo. I don't think we want outdated photos. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:52, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Colors in team season lists

Latest comment: 9 months ago6 comments5 people in discussion

Given that my changes to List of Seattle SuperSonics seasons are apparently controversial, I guess I should ask for a wider opinion here. Should the colors for team season lists be complementary, have good contrast, and make some logical sense? I switched them to match recent FLs in other team sports; these changes are presented below along with the former version that was reverted back by Sbaio:

Old color Description New color
† NBA champions †
* Conference champions *
^ Division champions ^
¤ Playoff berth ¤

My reasoning is that red is typically used in several other sports list formats to denote a demotion, either relegation in soccer or some other dishonor, rather than a championship. A light gold would make more sense, as it is almost universally used to denote a championship. The original color for a playoff berth is too close to both the conference and division championship colors in my opinion, and I chose orange as a placeholder. SounderBruce 06:11, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd like the NBA champion less light and a more bold gold. And the playoff color is a bit too similar to the NBA champion. Maybe purplish (follows rainbow order)? And that's a weird symbol for playoffs. Try a more typical one at Note (typography) § Numbering and symbols (§ ??) And it doesn't matter for Seattle (yet) but do we bother with play-in e.g. List of Chicago Bulls seasons?—Bagumba (talk) 07:12, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps the bolder colors from List of MLS Cup finals would be better? As for the playoff berth symbol, that was a holdover from the baseball and football lists; another candidate would be an uppercase delta (Δ), since it can represent uncertainty (which is built into a playoff). SounderBruce 07:26, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
I'd be fine with the MLS Cup finals colors. The delta symbol works well. I used it for both of my recent Blazers FLs. -- ZooBlazer 07:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong having  this color for NBA champions  since NBA does not have relegation and it is not supposed to be like MLS or other leagues. In addition  this color  passes everything at WebAIM:Contrast Checker, WhoCanUse and Colour Contrast Check - snook.ca ( playoff berth color  also passes everything). Therefore, I view this proposed change as personal preference and WP:OSE, because "other pages have something else". – sbaio 16:26, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Anything that gets away from using the terribly inappropriate red, a color widely associated with bad results, for the champion is an improvement. oknazevad (talk) 08:22, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

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