View source for Talk:Dog coat

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==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment==
[[File:Sciences humaines.svg|40px]] This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available [[Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/University_of_Guelph/Pet_Nutrition_(Fall)|on the course page]]. Student editor(s): [[User:Fullerb|Fullerb]].

{{small|Above undated message substituted from [[Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment]] by [[User:PrimeBOT|PrimeBOT]] ([[User talk:PrimeBOT|talk]]) 19:39, 16 January 2022 (UTC)}}
== Article expansion ==

Good expansion, Elf, but now we have to speak to rough/broken coated dogs--anybody?  [[User:Quill|Quill]] 03:36, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

:Now that I'm expanding (wait--were we talking about my waistline or my articles?), there's lots & lots of things to speak to.  But I'm tired (I think) and I'm going to go mindlessly organize my bookmarks for a while.  [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 03:39, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
::Off you go.  Wait!  one more thing!  I redirected [[dog coat]] here--let it stand, or is there more to say about dog coats--should it be moved now that it's down in Miscellaneous?  Do I even know what I'm talking about at this point?  Been wikying for hours...I think I need a break too....  [[User:Quill|Quill]] 03:45, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

:I'd leave it here for now. Why we'd need an entire article on coats for dogs is beyond me at the moment.  Maybe if I expand some more--  [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 04:19, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

:OK, I did coat colors--but guess what: Those coat textures still need handling! Who's next?  [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 17:47, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

== Irish spotting ==
I noticed Irish Spotting is not included as a coat pattern. Irish spotting is white that is confined to the neck, the chest, the underbody, the legs and the tail tip.  It's present in most collie breeds. Tan points, along with Irish spotting results in a tri-colour. Would it not be a coat pattern?  Or just an element of other patterns?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/64.5.236.254|64.5.236.254]] ([[User talk:64.5.236.254|talk]]) 21:03, 4 May 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Irish Spotting is a specific sort of bicolor.    <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.252.30.247|24.252.30.247]] ([[User talk:24.252.30.247|talk]]) 02:19, 6 May 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Breeds with only undercoat ==
I could not find info on dog breeds with only undercoats anywhere on the web. Perhaps a list could be added here, as it would probably be short? Do poodles have an overcoat?
[[Special:Contributions/67.168.59.171|67.168.59.171]] ([[User talk:67.168.59.171|talk]]) 08:29, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

:A single-coated dog by definition only has a top coat.  An animal cannot have an undercoat if there is no overcoat.  A poodle simply has a very soft top coat.    <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.252.30.247|24.252.30.247]] ([[User talk:24.252.30.247|talk]]) 02:28, 18 April 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== Red ==

The 'red' section needs a tweak.  All the colours listed are indeed variants AFAIK but it is not completely correct to say that it is the breed that determines what the colour is called; "liver" and "tan" are two distinct colours in [[terrier]]s, e.g., and it's a sore point.  I'm sure I can think of other examples but I can't think of good wording just ATM. [[User:Quill|Quill]] 22:08, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

:I'd love to be able to help, but after going through various dog books and discovering that they group the colors differently, I figured it out as best I could (and after talking to a number of people about different breeds), but what I wanted to get at was that there are many variants of color within each major color group--so "red" when the average Joe is looking at a dog might really be one of x, y, or z in dog lingo--and also that the ''same'' color might be called something different in different breeds.  Best of luck to whoever wants to sort this out--it might be impossible.  [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 05:38, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

== Saddle pattern ==

I've seen the Norwegian elkhound's coat referred to as a "saddle pattern", and that pattern isn't listed.  Is that the correct name for the pattern? [[User:Ralphmerridew|Ralphmerridew]] 22:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

:I think the Elkhound's coat is sable rather than saddled.  When you see a saddled dog, like many Airedale Terriers and German Shepherd, there is a very dark, well-defined area over their shoulders, as opposed to black hairs dispersed over most of the coat.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.252.30.247|24.252.30.247]] ([[User talk:24.252.30.247|talk]]) 03:18, 11 April 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Request to cite sources==
I've removed the request to cite sources. Per [[Wikipedia:Citing_sources#How_to_cite_sources|this style guide section]], you can provide general references if most of an article's content comes from those reference, which is true in this case (in fact I've provided two references); the specific guideline reads:
:(you can use) general references – books or other sources that support a significant amount of the material in the article – and inline citations,  which provide source information for specific statements. Inline citations are needed for statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, including contentious material about living persons, and for all quotations.

I see nothing contentious or likely to be challenged, and almost all of the material in this article can be traced to the two books already cited. It doesn't make sense to put footnotes on every paragraph.  [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 02:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

== Missing colors ==

The shades "fawn," "liver," and "seal" are used frequently by the AKC to describe coat coloring, as well as in dog breeding. I can't find any conclusive definitions anywhere though. This needs to be addressed.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Devonclaire|Devonclaire]] ([[User talk:Devonclaire|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Devonclaire|contribs]]) 05:28, 23 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Actually, it's the individual breed cluhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_eventsbs, not the national kennel clubs, that set the meaning of the words. There are no "conclusive definitions" anywhere because the definition varies from breed to breed, as decided on by the individual breed club.

::Coat colour terms tend to be breed-specific. Breed clubs will define particular words to describe particular colours in their breed and other breed clubs may use the same words to describe different colours. After all, this is a hobby, not science. Plus, with all the "somethingdoodles" and commercial kennels inventing their own mixes and giving them "breed names", for those dogs the colour words might be defined in any old way the seller thinks will amp his marketing.
::In general "liver" falls under red, but is more darker and browner than an Irish Setter colour.  "Fawn" may be a pale brown. "Seal" may be a pale grey. Consult individual breed pages for the exact definitions.--[[User:Hafwyn|Hafwyn]] ([[User talk:Hafwyn|talk]]) 20:49, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

::: This is very late, but I wanted to add some information in case anyone ever looks back here: liver is not the same as dark red -- it is controlled by the pigment eumelanin, whereas true red (ranging from mahogany to ivory, depending upon its intensity) is controlled by phaeomelanin. This is a notable difference, since a dog who is homozygous for recessive red (ee) will be unable to produce eumelanin in their coat, meaning they cannot show patterns that other dogs can (merle, brindle, masking, tan points/saddle pattern, etc.) Also, seal is not pale grey; it's actually a very dark brown, or "off-black", with black pigment. -- [[User:Anndelion|<span style="color:Goldenrod;">'''Anndelion'''</span>]] <small>([[User_talk:Anndelion|<span style="color:navy;">talk</span>]])</small> 11:06, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

== Counter-shading ==
The article lists counter-shading and says it is common but none of the photos show counter shading. Is it actually common?

== Repetitive Patterns ==
Bi-color, patched, and tuxedo are all the same pattern with different amounts of white.  I've removed patched and tuxedo.  Sorry if I'm stepping on any toes here, but I just can't see any reason to have three copies of the same color.

== Liver ==

What about give an example of the color "liver"?  [[User:Xtzou|<b style="color:navy;">Xtzou</b>]] ''([[User talk:Xtzou|<span style="color:green;">Talk</span>]])'' 14:13, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

== Buff ==

What about [[buff (color)]] dogs, see [[Buff_(color)#Artificial_selection]]. [[User:Chrisrus|Chrisrus]] ([[User talk:Chrisrus|talk]]) 03:06, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

== Genetics should go last ==

I feel the detailed discussion on genetics of dog coat patterns is useful (albeit overly technical), but probably not what the general reader is looking for, and so probably shouldn't be the first section, especially with its current length. Another option would be to create a second article on Genetics of dog coat colors, with as much detail as needed, with only a succinct summary in this article. [[User:Animalparty|--Animalparty--]] ([[User talk:Animalparty|talk]]) 19:09, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
:I have tagged it as such. Personally, I don't think we need to go into genetic specifics. [[Coat (dog)#Colors, patterns, lengths and textures]] from the first subsection downwards looks like it has been pasted from an undergraduate textbook. [[Special:Contributions/Fuebaey|Fuebaey]] ([[User talk:Fuebaey|talk]]) 21:08, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
::There are no copyright infringements. If you have a textbook with this article identical in whole or part, please present your evidence! The page is currently focused in two areas, genetics and pictures. If there is a section missing that would be of interest, what additional topic would you like to see presented or elaborated on?[[Special:Contributions/24.129.225.118|24.129.225.118]] ([[User talk:24.129.225.118|talk]]) 20:35, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

== Chihuahua hairless?? ==

"These three genes responsible for the length and texture of an animal's coat interact to produce eight different phenotypes:[6]

    Hairless (e.g. Chihuahua)"

I strongly doubt whether the Chihuahua is hairless... --[[User:Canarian|Canarian]] ([[User talk:Canarian|talk]]) 16:31, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
: For reasons unknown, many people confuse the Chihuahua with the Mexican Hairless (now Xoloitzcuintli, Toy). One country of origin, two separate breeds. Go figure.[[Special:Contributions/24.129.225.118|24.129.225.118]] ([[User talk:24.129.225.118|talk]]) 19:23, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
why did you list that chihuahua's as hairless? [[User:Lexi 3232|Lexi 3232]] ([[User talk:Lexi 3232|talk]])  <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 19:08, 30 August 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Fur versus Hair, and allergy concerns ==

I've often heard that dogs with "hair" provoke their owners' allergies less than dogs with "fur". This article does mention "hypoallergenic dogs", but doesn't generally address this issue (which the results of some Googling strongly suggests is a canard). I'd love to see a reference added to the article -- [[User:Dtgriscom|Dan Griscom]] ([[User talk:Dtgriscom|talk]]) 12:03, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
: Hair and fur are unofficial terms. Google things like wire, furnished, single and MC5R to read about coat types that don't shed much. If you're getting a dog, spend time with it first, or getting a puppy, with its parents, because shedding is only one factor that contributes to allergies, and the other factors vary from breed to breed and even within breeds. Reference added. Hayward, J. J. et al. Complex disease and phenotype mapping in the domestic dog. Nat. Commun. 7:10460 doi: 10.1038/ncomms10460 (2016).[[Special:Contributions/24.129.225.118|24.129.225.118]] ([[User talk:24.129.225.118|talk]]) 19:20, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

== Is the genetics section really necessary?  split it off ==

The genetics section is way too technical and not of any encyclopedic interest to the reader. It can be simplified to a list of the eight key loci/genes and a brief description. References can then be added to further reading technical papers that show combinations of the genes. The article can then go into detail on the terminology regarding a dog's coat like undercoat, wire coat, double coat. If this material is really that notable, split off the information to a new article called [[Dog coat genetics]]. [[User:AngusWOOF|<strong style="color:#606060;">AngusWOOF</strong>]] ([[User talk:AngusWOOF#top|<span style="color:#663300;">bark</span>]] • [[Special:Contributions/AngusWOOF|<span style="color:#006600;">sniff</span>]]) 00:14, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

I've created [[Dog coat genetics]] article with all the gene stuff. Please check it over and fill it with sourcing. I'm also concerned it may be a copyvio as it isn't sourced very well. [[User:AngusWOOF|<strong style="color:#606060;">AngusWOOF</strong>]] ([[User talk:AngusWOOF#top|<span style="color:#663300;">bark</span>]] • [[Special:Contributions/AngusWOOF|<span style="color:#006600;">sniff</span>]]) 00:47, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

:No copyright violations, but I'll take your concern as a compliment that the part I wrote is copy-worthy. Will work on your suggestions. Much of the unsourced stuff has been in THIS article for a decade, I should be able to find references for it.[[Special:Contributions/24.129.225.118|24.129.225.118]] ([[User talk:24.129.225.118|talk]]) 17:33, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

:The new discoveries seem referenced already. Most of the unreferenced stuff is actually from the same source (Little, 1957)<ref>Little, Clarence Cook (1957). The Inheritance of Coat Color in Dogs. New York: Comstock Publishing.</ref> though so if you are looking for separate references for each allele or even each gene there aren't any. Most of his theories (now mostly "proven") were his own, I believe?, but I last saw his book ~18 years ago and no longer live in the same city as that library so don't have access to it to verify whether other scientists ought to be credited in cases where he might have been restating their original work in his book. Suggestions? [[Special:Contributions/24.129.225.118|24.129.225.118]] ([[User talk:24.129.225.118|talk]]) 22:48, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

:: It's okay to quote the same book for the references if you have it. There's harvnb notation and other referencing schemes. If you have other books and websites that also discuss the types of gene groupings, then that would work too. It's on the spin-out article. Thanks again for putting that information in. Hopefully I organized it okay with the sectionings.  [[User:AngusWOOF|<strong style="color:#606060;">AngusWOOF</strong>]] ([[User talk:AngusWOOF#top|<span style="color:#663300;">bark</span>]] • [[Special:Contributions/AngusWOOF|<span style="color:#006600;">sniff</span>]]) 17:28, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== Potential New Subtitle ==

Hi everyone, 

We are working on an assignment for our course in which our topic is Skin and Coat. We were wondering what your thoughts might be with regards to a new section of this article around "Nutritional Impacts on Dog Coats".
Here we would discuss different nutrients and their effects on the coat of the dog. This would include nutrients such as Omega 3s, copper, biotin, vitamin A, etc and how they could effect coat colour, texture, etc.

Let us know what your thoughts are as we start drafting up the section in our sandbox. Thank you ([[User:Hannahjayg|Hannahjayg]] ([[User talk:Hannahjayg|talk]]) 22:10, 16 November 2017 (UTC))

== Mexican Hairless??? ==

In the picture where it says "Mexican Hairless" there is actually an Indian Hairless Dog (which photographer calls "Alunku" - I'm not familiar of the real breed name, since I've never heard of this Indian Hairless breed, but at least that's not a Mexican Hairless in the photo!). --[[User:Canarian|Canarian]] ([[User talk:Canarian|talk]]) 21:12, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

== Move discussion in progress ==

There is a move discussion in progress on [[Talk:Coat (animal)#Requested move 11 November 2019 |Talk:Coat (animal)]] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Coat (animal) crosspost --> —[[User:RMCD bot|RMCD bot]] 12:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

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