View source for Template:Did you know nominations/Talia Or

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:''The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify this page.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as [[{{TALKPAGENAME}}|this nomination's talk page]], [[Talk:{{SUBPAGENAME}}|the article's talk page]] or [[Wikipedia talk:Did you know]]), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. '''No further edits should be made to this page'''.''

The result was: '''promoted''' by [[User:Kingsif|Kingsif]] ([[User talk:Kingsif|talk]])&nbsp;04:36, 16 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
{{DYK conditions}}
{{DYK header|Talia Or}}
{{DYK nompage links|nompage=Talia Or|Talia Or}}
{{main page image/DYK|image=Talia Or.jpg|caption=Talia Or in 2022}}
* ... that '''[[Talia Or]]''' ''(pictured)'' recorded the [[soprano]] solo of Bach's cantata [[Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme, BWV 140|''Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme'', BWV 140]], with the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by [[Zubin Mehta]] in Jerusalem? <small>Source: [https://www.heliconclassics.com/bloch-avodat-hakodesh-bach-cantata-bwv-140/], [https://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV140-Rec7.htm]</small>
** ''Reviewed'': [[Template:Did you know nominations/Andriy Kovalchuk|Andriy Kovalchuk]]
<small>Created by [[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]). Self-nominated at 13:58, 11 October 2022 (UTC).</small>
* [[File:Symbol question.svg|16px]] While the article meets DYK requirements, a QPQ has been provided, and the hook is cited inline and verified, the hook doesn't seem to be one that is interesting to a broad audience due to reliance on names and terms that general readers may not be familiar with. Personally I thought it was interesting that she's German but was born (and later active) in Israel. Maybe hooks about that angle could work? Personally it seems interesting for her to have such a background. Thus, I'm suggesting the following hooks:
::<s>'''ALT1''' ... that German operatic soprano '''[[Talia Or]]''' ''(pictured)'' has performed with the [[Israel Philharmonic Orchestra]]?</s>
::<s>'''ALT2''' ... that German operatic soprano '''[[Talia Or]]''' ''(pictured)'' was born in Israel?</s>
::<s>'''ALT3''' ... that German operatic soprano '''[[Talia Or]]''' ''(pictured)'' was born in Israel and later performed with the [[Israel Philharmonic Orchestra]]?</s>
:If there is a desire to promote BWV 140, the orchestra, or Mehta, readers could always learn more about that by reading Or's article. They don't necessarily have to be in the hook. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|<B><span style="color:#0038A8">Naruto</span><span style="color:#FCD116">love</span><span style="color:#CE1126">hinata</span>5</B>]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 07:21, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
:: [[User:Storye book|calling for help]] --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 07:30, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
:: With a bit of time, explaining once more:
::* I don't like "German", - yes she is based in Germany, from age four to now, but has a strong Jewish identity. "German" - or any nationality - is misleading (and perhaps I change the article).
::* I don't like "operatic soprano", because while she did some opera, she is stronger in concert (and perhaps I change the article).
::* All three ALTs say nothing about her art - taste - repertoire - colleagues. Being born somewhere really isn't interesting to me, ever. You should know me for long enough to not even propose such things.
::* While you may not know [[Zubin Mehta]], there will be readers who will, and it places her in a (high) class.
::* While you may not know  BWV 140, there will be readers who do, and know it comes with two tender love duets, and - as DYK told a while ago - "without a dull bar, technically, emotionally and spiritually of the highest orde". I also like the ''subtle'' combination of German music played in Israel with an indian conductor.
::* I thought long about what to say for a hook, would have loved Verdi, but the recent review wasn't specific about her (and behind a paywall), and I couldn't find an earlier one. I am open to something about operatic Frau Fluth, with a great review, but that festival is not known well.
:: Summary: you will not change my wish to say something substantial about a subject (not just where she was born), because millions read the Main page , but only thousands go to the article. How about reviewing topics you know better? --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 09:04, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
:::I used "German operatic soprano" in the hooks because that's how the lede describes her. If you don't want her to be described as "German" or as an "operatic soprano", then why use those terms in the lede? In addition, the hooks are not for you, they are for our readers. Even if they don't appeal to you, they may to a wider audience. When we write hooks, we write with readers' interests in mind, even if they don't necessarily match our own. Hooks musn't necessarily be about the subject's works, but rather be about one or more facts that encourage readers to read the article and learn more. That's why they're called "hooks". In any case, as I proposed new hook facts, I wouldn't be able to give the nomination a final approval anyway, so in any case another reviewer would have been needed to check the hooks. What we could do, as a compromise, is to let an uninvolved editor review all the hooks and leave the final choice in hook to the promoter. Let someone uninvolved make the final decision. Would you be okay with that? If the promoter decides to promote your preference I won't oppose, but ideally I'd like a fresh pair of eyes to review both your hook and mine. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|<B><span style="color:#0038A8">Naruto</span><span style="color:#FCD116">love</span><span style="color:#CE1126">hinata</span>5</B>]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 09:50, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
:::: I fixed the article, not saying German, not saying operatic. While both are true, they are too narrow for her. We'll see what a new reviewer has to say. If it's an approval of ALT2 I'll talk to them ;) --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 10:15, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)
:::::* {{ping|Narutolovehinata5}} Oh dear, I'm sorry but I find your hooks ALTs 1,2,3 embarrassing. This biography has a European subject, and your hooks are only about the (implied historical-political) relationship between Germany and Jewish people (whether or not you realised that). Ouch. Yes, the article tells the truth about her national background, but you don't need to isolate that factor as clickbait for our majority readership of US citizens. I suggest that you watch her on YouTube to get what she's really about. She has a naturally beautiful and big voice, and is a knockout in front of large crowds. So let's hook about the music, shall we? [[User:Storye book|Storye book]] ([[User talk:Storye book|talk]]) 10:31, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

:::::* {{ping|Gerda Arendt}} I agree that it's the music that counts here, because Or is a musician. Re ALT0, Bach is such a household name worldwide, that you have not needed to link it. That tells us something. Bach is certainly not "names and terms that general readers may not be familiar with", as has been suggested above. Also, this is a European article, and most Europeans have heard of Zubin Mehta, one of the greatest European conductors of our times. (OK, Israel itself is an associated state of the European Union, but Mehta performed in effect as a pan-European citizen). We all heard his music and saw him conduct on TV. There is lots of him on YouTube, mostly conducting music that we all recognise (whether orchestral/opera fans or not). I think that ALT0 is an example of an appropriate sort of hook for a European musician, and we are supposed to include on our main page roughly half US-centric hooks and half Rest Of The World hooks.

:::::* [[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] for ALT0 as explained above. [[User:Storye book|Storye book]] ([[User talk:Storye book|talk]]) 10:31, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
:::::::[[File:Symbol redirect vote 4.svg|16px]] If possible, I'd like to ask for another opinion from another uninvolved reviewer, ideally one who is not a classical music fan, so that a detached and fair review can be given. If they prefer ALT0 and approve only that, I won't oppose, but I think it would be better for another editor to take a look at this also in order to give the interestingness criterion a fair chance. I do want to point out that for me, the idea was that it was unusual that a German musician was born in another country and later became active in that country, and the Israel/Jewish connection was just happenstance and I would have suggested something similar even if she was active in China instead. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|<B><span style="color:#0038A8">Naruto</span><span style="color:#FCD116">love</span><span style="color:#CE1126">hinata</span>5</B>]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 10:39, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

::::::::* {{ping|Narutolovehinata5}} Firstly, I did not write my comments and review on the basis of "classical music" fandom. My area of "fandom" if you like, is early music, using either northern-European singing-style (like early church choral music), or Arabic singing style (which refers back to how plainsong began). to be honest, I can't stand Or's warbling, which throws the middle and higher notes off-key. It may be appropriate for her genre, and her need to both act and project across large crowds and over big orchestras, but it's off-key to me. Nevertheless, I have to be objective in DYK reviews just like everyone else. Just because you yourself put a blanket term of "classical music" over everything which happened musically before, say, 1950, that doesn't give you the right to pronounce on my objectivity. Secondly, whether unintentionally or not, you trod on some very sensitive European toes when you picked on the idea of being both German and Jewish in all three of your hooks. I think, my friend, that you just want to win here? If so, please do not try to do it by insulting my intentions as a reviewer. [[User:Storye book|Storye book]] ([[User talk:Storye book|talk]]) 10:51, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
{{od}} [[File:Symbol redirect vote 4.svg|16px]] I don't appreciate the insinuation that a reviewer is biased (especially on account of their interests); however, I'm inclined to uphold the request for a new reviewer to give the final tick, on account of the fact that Storye book was pinged directly to this discussion. I'll leave my own hook preferences out of this. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[user talk:theleekycauldron|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Theleekycauldron|contribs]]) (she/her) 10:56, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
* [[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] with ALT0. Not every hook derives its appeal from universally accessible content. In the interest of brevity, I'd suggest cutting the "BWV 140", but it's not a dealbreaker. [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 03:48, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
*: Thank you, - I left BWV 140 because for some English-speaking readers that might better recognisable than the longish title in German. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 08:35, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
::*Reopening this; Gerda has requested for the hook to run on 20 November (or thereabouts). '''[[User:Schwede66|<span style="color: #000000;">Schwede</span>]][[User talk:Schwede66|<span style="color: #FF4500;">66</span>]]''' 23:20, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
[[File:Symbol question.svg|16px]] Just noting that a new hook is required, as the current one does not satisfy 3a, "interesting to a broad audience". Cheers &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 14:11, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
: Cheers! Newcomers to this discussion may want to review some prior discussion [[Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 188#Queue 5: Talia Or|here]]. I'd like to propose: {{blist|'''ALT4''': ... that German operatic soprano '''[[Talia Or]]''' was called "the undisputed ruler of the scenery"?}} [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 14:38, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
::Yes, I definitely like that one. <s>One point though - I wonder if "scenery" is the right word. I see from the dictionary that the German word can either mean "Gesamtheit dessen, was sich von einem Standort aus dem Blick des Betrachters darbietet" (that which is presented to an observer from a location, which is the English sort of scenery), or it can mean "Bühnenbild", which is like a stage design. I think in English we might call that a "set" rather than "scenery". Do you concur, as a German speaker, {{ping|Gerda Arendt}}?</s> &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 15:42, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
:::Actually, never mind, I see from Merriam Webster that the theatre usage is found in English too. Just my ignorance then. Let's go with the scenery hook if Gerda and others agree. &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 15:48, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
:::: I feel like the hook is rather confusing? Like, what scenery? [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[user talk:theleekycauldron|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Theleekycauldron|contribs]]) (she/her) 19:41, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
::::: A delicate line there is, between hooky and confusing. I can see this being on the wrong side of the line (Storye book suggested the same about a similar proposal). If so, I don't think we can fix it with explanation, due to length and hookiness issues, and we should probably search elsewhere for the hook. [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 19:52, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
:::::: {{ping|Firefangledfeathers}} {{ping|theleekycauldron}} {{ping|Gerda Arendt}}. When I saw the first incarnation of that scenery hook on the DYK errors page, I checked the source in the Talia Or article, in the hope of understanding it. The problem was two things: 1. the source had been translated in a rather obscure manner from the original language (probably some idioms don't translate well), and 2. the hook facts had been taken out of context, so that it needed explanations that would be too long to fit into the hook. So I agree with the above comment about the scenery hook being redundant. But there are other issues going on here, and I think we need to be aware of them:
:::::: A. A few reviewers are well-intentioned in trying their best to get really good quirky hooks to bring in lots of clicks for WP's benefit. But I think they need to re-assess the value of those click numbers. We are already getting plenty of click-value out of the top DYK entry which has the picture. The other hooks will always get far fewer clicks, whatever we do. Is it really worth distressing our well-meaning and dedicated nominator by banging on about pleasing a "broad audience" when we could perfectly harmlessly let this hook, and others, go through DYK. The right way to deal with this is at amending-the-rules level, not harassing the nominator. 
:::::: B. Our nominator/creator is doing her best and has worked hard to create maybe hundreds of articles by now, in the service of WP and the subject at hand. That is the motive of most nominator/creators. We need to lay off a bit, and find a kinder way to deal with this. 
:::::: C. My aim as a DYK reviewer has always been to try to get DYK noms through the system as quickly and smoothly as possible, without risk of being thrown out of prep, while offering full respect to the nominator/creator. That means that there always has to be some sort of compromise - by me. For me it is not about just pushing for what I want or like. It's about making the system work. Respect and consideration towards nominators/creators comes before numbers of clicks. Maybe I've tried too hard to stand up for that policy of mine, but like you, I'm trying to do my best.
:::::: So to sum up, I think we are all attempting to do our best for WP, and we are all probably hurting other people in the process, without helping or improving WP very much at all. I think we need to lay off this template for now, and see what we can do to correct matters at amending-the-rules level. That way, no-one gets hurt, and no-one gets blamed, and who knows - we may end up with a set of rules that we can all use, in peace. [[User:Storye book|Storye book]] ([[User talk:Storye book|talk]]) 22:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
::::::: Thank you as always for your insight, {{u|Storye book}} :) I would respectfully submit that the discussion at [[WT:DYK]] seems to have lost its steam, and will not come to a consensus to allow this nomination forward on its own, barring the materialization of a hook we can all agree on. If you, {{u|Gerda Arendt}}, or another user wish to amend the rules, I believe the time to start that discussion would be sooner other than later. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[user talk:theleekycauldron|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Theleekycauldron|contribs]]) (she/her) 07:56, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
:::::::: Thank you, {{u|theleekycauldron}}. I have not done that before, so please give us a link to the amend-the-rules page? Thank you. [[User:Storye book|Storye book]] ([[User talk:Storye book|talk]]) 09:19, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
::::::::: {{yo|Storye book}} You'd want to redraft [[WP:DYK#gen3]]a to match your interpretation, and then post a discussion at [[WT:DYK]] to attempt to gain consensus to implement that redrafting. Sometimes this is an RfC, but it doesn't really have to be. If consensus is achieved, then someone'll change the rules on your behalf. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[user talk:theleekycauldron|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Theleekycauldron|contribs]]) (she/her) 09:23, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::: Thank you. [[User:Storye book|Storye book]] ([[User talk:Storye book|talk]]) 09:41, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::: Done. [[Wikipedia talk:Did you know#The need to update Wikipedia:DYK#gen3]]. [[User:Storye book|Storye book]] ([[User talk:Storye book|talk]]) 13:17, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
: Back after busy days. Thank you for trying an ALT, [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]], but I can't get behind it.
:# She isn't a "German operatic soprano", nobody knows if she is even German, and she sings concerts much more than opera. On top of that, I would not want to drive away readers who don't like opera by mentioning it so early.
:# All the hook  really says is that this is a woman who dominates. Is that even interesting? On top, "of the scenery" is vague, and I never heard the term. No context of which scene where when. This could be - without an image - in the 18th century.
:# This quote was translated, not good, always loosing in translation, and it's also not by an important reviewer.
: So, why not say something that mentions her ties to Israel, alluding to her strong Jewish identity, and mentioning a highlight of her concert career, as the original hook does? Jerusalem, Bach cantata, famous conductor: all these bits should be interesting ''to learn'' for an average reader. I propose to run this on 20 November, because the end of the church year is the occasion for which Bach wrote the cantata. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 11:03, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

* For me ALT0 is way too complicated. It's basically "Did you know ... that person A did job B with tool C and coworkers D and boss F in place G? I got lost reading it. 
: I actually like '''ALT2''' pretty interesting, myself, as I always find emigration stories interesting, and it has nothing to do with any historical/political relationships. I'd find it just as interesting if a Welsh singer had been born in Australia. And since she's been in Germany since she was 4, maybe lots of people ''don't know'' that she was born in Israel. I also like '''ALT4''', if we can get the language worked out. Set or scenery, either translation would work for me in that hook, as long as it's a correct translation. 
: Gerda, I really don't think you should be [[Special:Diff/1115599537|canvassing]] people to a DYK nom. If you have a problem with a review, take it to DYK talk, don't call in someone you think will be a friendly supporter. And Storye book, while it's best not to let yourself get canvassed in, commenting is one thing but you shouldn't be giving a checkmark to the nom or approving an ALT. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 14:25, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
:: I disagree that pinging those who "opposed" is canvassing. I'd like to understand their position better, - that's all. I agree that ALT0 is complex, but this is a complex bio. Any suggestion how else to say that she has to do with Israel and Germany welcome. The ALT, saying no more than that she is dominating something  without the slightest hint at what that something is - doesn't represent her ''specifically'', - it's something she shares with hundred others. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 15:50, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
:::I agree with {{u|Valereee}} (having become aware of this nomination after [[Special:Diff/1121278714|being pinged]]). I do think the original hook is quite convoluted, which sadly may not be broadly interesting both because of its complexity and because it mentions several relatively obscure subjects. ALT0 implies that the reader is aware of the significance of [[Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme, BWV 140]] or [[Zubin Mehta]], or that the reader is willing to click on these links to figure out why the hook is significant. In my view, this would draw readers away from the hook at hand. On the other hand, ALT1, ALT3, ALT4, and to a lesser extent ALT2 are all interesting because they provide an unusual fact that people may be interested in reading about.{{pb}}I also agree with Valereee that edits like [[Special:Diff/1115599537]] can be seen as canvassing, even if inadvertently. Perhaps we can find a compromise that is interesting enough for everyone while not being too simplistic. [[User:Epicgenius|Epicgenius]] ([[User talk:Epicgenius|talk]]) 15:51, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
:::: Could you please provide such an ALT? (I avoided a link to the nom to ''not'' canvass.) I don't agree that you have to have previous knowledge about Bach's cantata, or the conductor, but simply be interested in Bach and/or Jerusalem, to may be inclined to learn more, but if we can find an alternative, I'm willing to accept. After having said anyway that the image is hook enough, so it doesn't even matter what the hook says. However, I feel we have an obligation to do justice to a BLP. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 15:58, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
:::::I was thinking maybe something like this:
:::::*'''ALT5'''... that German soprano '''[[Talia Or]]''' ''(pictured)'' recorded the [[soprano]] solo of a [[Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme, BWV 140|Bach cantata]] in Jerusalem and has also performed as a guest in Turin, Valencia, Sao Paulo and Tokyo?
:::::However, that may also be a bit convoluted, and it doesn't actually mention the name of the cantata because the hook would otherwise be too long. [[User:Epicgenius|Epicgenius]] ([[User talk:Epicgenius|talk]]) 16:45, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
:::::: Thank you for looking into it, but the list of fancy places is what project opera calls a laundry list - not wanted in articles, be specific, which would be nice for a hook as well. Also, as said again and again: is she even a German soprano? I have no source for that. If you don't say which Bach cantata of the 200, the informed reader will miss a lot. To have "soprano" twice in a short sentence is also not my idea of a good hook. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 02:40, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
*'''ALT6''': ... that German soprano '''[[Talia Or]]''' performed as [[Die Frau ohne Schatten|the Voice of a Falcon]]? 
:That made me want to go see what that meant, which Gerda, I think is what you're going for: to intrigue someone who isn't ordinarily much interested in opera to check out an opera article. You may think this leaves out what's most important to you, but it did make me want to go read that article. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 19:27, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
:: See, this is a very small role, and a role that is heard but not seen, nothing to write home about, but I won't be in the way. It's also something others do as well, while I try to say something unique to a subject. No hint at Israel-Germany, which I really liked about ALT0 ... As above: is she even a German soprano? I have no source for that. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 02:40, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
:: condense to
:: '''ALT0a''': ... that '''[[Talia Or]]''' ''(pictured)'' recorded the [[soprano]] solo of Bach's cantata [[Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme, BWV 140|''Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme'', BWV 140]], in Jerusalem? --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 02:40, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
:: [[User:Valereee|Valereee]], ALT6 is a role hook which [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] does not accept, but how about putting it in real life context:
:: '''ALT6a''': ... that '''[[Talia Or]]''', born in Israel and based in Germany, performed as [[Die Frau ohne Schatten|the Voice of a Falcon]] at [[La Scala]]? --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 12:24, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
[[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] I can live with '''ALT6a''', approving it unless {{u|Narutolovehinata5}} has further objections. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 16:36, 13 November 2022 (UTC) 
:::{{ping|Valereee}} I'd be okay with ALT6a if the two clauses were switched around (i.e. Talia who played Voice was born in Israel). [[User:Narutolovehinata5|<B><span style="color:#0038A8">Naruto</span><span style="color:#FCD116">love</span><span style="color:#CE1126">hinata</span>5</B>]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] ·
::::So you're asking for:
::::'''ALT6b''': ... that '''[[Talia Or]]''', who performed as [[Die Frau ohne Schatten|the Voice of a Falcon]] at [[La Scala]], was born in Israel and is based in Germany? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 18:37, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
[[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 17:35, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
:::::Yes because I think it flows better than the original wording in terms of the fact that most readers would find intriguing. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|<B><span style="color:#0038A8">Naruto</span><span style="color:#FCD116">love</span><span style="color:#CE1126">hinata</span>5</B>]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 18:39, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
*'''ALT7''': ... that '''[[Talia Or]]''' appeared at the [[Theater Aachen|Stadttheater Aachen]] at the age of ten? [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 12:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
*: ... which doesn't even say she is a singer, or comes from Israel, - is just being a child prodigy really interesting? Repeating: the hook will for the millions who read the Main page but won't click remain the ''only'' fact they'll get to know about this person. If you make a hook like that for one of your articles, I'll  approve it, as the nominaor's wish is my command, but my idea is and always will be to say something as specific to the subject as possible. See [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Quality Article Improvement/Recent deaths|examples]]. I do try to make it interesting. For this subject, I even inquired beforehand about what to say. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 14:02, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
*: + I'd much prefer to introduce readers to the cantate than to that sad stub of a theatre. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 14:04, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
*: + if there are reliable sources I see no reason to use a fact only sources to her personal website. I didn't even use the interview which specifies which role she sang where. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 14:08, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
* [[File:Symbol possible vote.svg|16px]] It seems that a compromise on a hook that satisfies both the nominator and the consensus of current guidelines is not obtainable at the moment. Rather than putting more time and energy into pushing this nomination forward, I suggest we wait for the discussion at [[WT:DYK]] to conclude. Should it loosen our requirements enough to qualify a hook Gerda approves of (and I'm not sure any but ALT2 and ALT4 would), then we can move forward with it – should the discussion result in no change, or a change that does not produce a viable hook Gerda can get behind (i.e. ALT5), this nomination should be closed without action. I'm reticent to feature an article at DYK without consent of the nominator. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[user talk:theleekycauldron|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Theleekycauldron|contribs]]) (she/her) 20:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
::I would agree that nom/creator should be able to veto a hook and just let the nom fail. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 21:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
::: Did you hear what I said about her personal website not an ideal RS, and impressing by appearance on stage early nothing unusual? --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 01:39, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
::: Did you hear what I said about ALT6? Not a veto to the fact, just an explanation why it's not great, and a veto for "the German soprano", because we have no source for that. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 02:35, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
:::: By the various ALTs, {{u|Gerda Arendt}} I mean the proposals for the interestingness criterion at [[WT:DYK]]. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[user talk:theleekycauldron|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Theleekycauldron|contribs]]) (she/her) 02:42, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
::::: And per indenting, I mean I asked [[User:Valereee|Valereee]]. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 02:46, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
*I like 6a, but could go with 6b if that is preferable. --[[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|<span class="gfSarekSig">SarekOfVulcan (talk)</span>]] 17:52, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
*: Hooks such as 6a have been labelled a "role-hook" and rejected as having nothing to do with real life, comparable to just talking about the plot of a book. There's also ALTURVE below to be considered. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 22:09, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

*(See below [[User:Urve|Urve]] ([[User talk:Urve|talk]]) 20:18, 13 November 2022 (UTC)) Thread is confusing, so putting my thoughts down here. Based on my understanding, Gerda would find acceptable something to "alluding to her strong Jewish identity". Maybe something like:
*:'''ALTURVE''' ;) : ... that '''[[Talia Or]]''', a daughter of a synagogue teacher, performed with the [[Israel Philharmonic Orchestra]] in Jerusalem and [[Sung Min Song]] in Wiesbaden?
:My reason? It demonstrates her Jewish identity, her successful career (having gone to Jerusalem and Wiesbaden - readers won't know where she's from, but two different cities in different countries suggests success), the kinds of groups and people she sings with (we guess classical music), and readers will guess that Sung Min Song is South Korean, which alludes to her working with many different people. I haven't read the article closely to know if this is accurate, but I would personally find this a respectful presentation of her career that is interesting. You know how I feel about childhood factoids, but I think it's broadly interesting to show a daughter of a teacher coming to music (even though her mother is a singer) and working with all kinds of people (not only people likely to be Jewish). [[User:Urve|Urve]] ([[User talk:Urve|talk]]) 19:54, 13 November 2022 (UTC) Oh, something was approved above - confusing indeed ;) [[User:Urve|Urve]] ([[User talk:Urve|talk]]) 20:18, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
:: Thank you. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 01:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
:This conversation has wasted so much time. I would have just promoted the original hook once the discussion came to at least half of the length it is now if it was up to me. This discussion is longer than the article itself. [[User:SL93|SL93]] ([[User talk:SL93|talk]]) 01:51, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
: [[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] restating {{u|Valereee}}'s tick for posterity. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[user talk:theleekycauldron|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Theleekycauldron|contribs]]) (she/her) 05:37, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
*[[File:Symbol question.svg|16px]] I hate to do this, but [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 227#Review of a decision to remove an external link per ELNEVER|this WP:RSN discussion]] makes it pretty clear that bach-cantatas.com is not a [[WP:RS]] due to [[WP:SELFPUBLISH]].  -- [[User:RoySmith|RoySmith]] [[User Talk:RoySmith|(talk)]] 15:22, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
*: [[User:RoySmith|Roy]], my understanding is that the tick is for ALT6a ''only'' which doesn't even mention any Bach cantata. Could someone please clarify by striking ALTs that should not be used? I don't dare to. Also: Bach Cantatas Website has been rejected for biographies, but generally accepted for recordings. There also is a second ref for the recording, just Bach Cantatas is always more detailed, therefore we shouldn't deprive readers from it. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 15:33, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
*::[[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] OK, I'll restore the tick for ALT6a (or ALT6b, if I understand correctly).  In the meantime, I found a different hook to fill in the gap I was trying to fill, so leaving this for somebody else to promote.  -- [[User:RoySmith|RoySmith]] [[User Talk:RoySmith|(talk)]] 15:50, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
*::: The restored tick is above ALT6b, so I'd be surprised if it could mean ALT6b. Or should nothing surprise me any more ;) -- (sorry, forgot to sign) 
*::::Well, technically, the tick was given with the constraint "unless {{u|Narutolovehinata5}} has further objections", and he did, so one could argue that it's not valid for either 6a or 6b, but I figured you wouldn't want to go there.  -- [[User:RoySmith|RoySmith]] [[User Talk:RoySmith|(talk)]] 16:04, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
*:::::{{ping|Narutolovehinata5|Valereee}} can you clarify which of ALT6a/ALT6b are approved?  -- [[User:RoySmith|RoySmith]] [[User Talk:RoySmith|(talk)]] 14:56, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
:::::::Valereee approved ALT6a but asked if I had any objections to it. I said yes, so she proposed ALT6b, which I accepted. So I guess it's ALT6b that's good to go in this case. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|<B><span style="color:#0038A8">Naruto</span><span style="color:#FCD116">love</span><span style="color:#CE1126">hinata</span>5</B>]] ([[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|contributions]]) 15:02, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
:::::::{{u|RoySmith}}, yes, I'd say ALT6b is good to go. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 15:25, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
::::::::OK, clarifying my earlier tick, [[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] only ALT6b is approved. -- [[User:RoySmith|RoySmith]] [[User Talk:RoySmith|(talk)]] 15:28, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
::::::::: Only for my education: why would you say the unusual thing first and something quite normal (working in Germany) in the end where I'd expect the climax? such as La Scala. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 17:52, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::: ALt6b seems worse than the original hook in that it's a ''non-sequitur'' whereas the original was coherent.  It does not seem that all the effort that went into this discussion was productive.  "''Viele Köche verderben den Brei''"! [[user:Andrew Davidson|Andrew]]🐉([[user talk:Andrew Davidson|talk]]) 12:53, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
::::::::::: You could approve the original (as two others did before you). Or ALTURVE. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 16:06, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
{{pb}} far too many people have weighed in for the original hook, both for and against, for a single tick in favour to be considered decisive. Are we going with ALT6b, does someone want to weigh in Urve's suggestion, what are we doing? Keep in mind the new guidelines as well. [[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]] ([[user talk:theleekycauldron|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Theleekycauldron|contribs]]) (she/her) 22:10, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
: ALT6b is approved and you could take it to prep if you want to ignore the concern raised by Andrew. Drmies looked at Urve's and found that a ref is a dead link. I thought of Yoninah when I made the original hook, sentimental as I am. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 22:17, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
::[[user:theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]], [[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]], [[User:Valereee|Valereee]], User:Drmies (oh, wait), we're all good with ALT6b, right? Well, let's go. Here: [[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 22:36, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
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