Talk:Pastilla

Photo

Here is a free image from Flickr. I haven't included it because, no offense to the photographer, but it is not very good at illustrating the bastilla. http://flickr.com/photos/frank-wouters/37749750/

La pastilla un fleuron de la cuisine impériale marocaine

La pastilla fait partie de la cuisine marocaine des villes impériales dite tyab al makhzani, car à la base elle est faite de pigeons, et autrefois l'art de recevoir à la marocaine exige l'utilisation des pigeons et non le poulet, et elle était servie dans les maisons de notables pour des grandes occasions; ses spécialistes se retrouvent surtout dans les villes impériales, selon le feu Abderrahim Berghach, journaliste marocains qui a fait des recherches sur la cuisine marocaine et a animé durant des années des émissions culinaire sur la première chaine de télévision marocaine, la première fois que la pastilla sera faite au poulets c'était vers la fin des années 70 exactement en 1978 dans l'école hôtelière des Touargas, Personnellement je la vois aussi prendre des airs d' autres plats mekhzanis, comme tajine Lemfennad aux pigeons, el Makfoul ou kamama sont aussi caramélisés ou la cannelle et l'oignon sont fortement utilisés; tout simplement c'est une cuisson sans eau comme les tagines sauf qu'elle est enfournée, et si on compare l'autre technique qui est de farcir à la viande on trouve la medfouna de tafilalte ( cette fois ci un pain farcis), et farcir est une technique qui est originaire de la perce venue probablement au Maroc avec les vagues d'immigrations du moyen orient ou bien du premier manuscrit culinaire originaire de Baghdad introduit vers le 10ème siècle je pense, tandis qu'elle a retenu le principe de la cuisine au beurre ou au smen des plats berbère, cependant le nom est castillan Pastilla ou bestilla comme les pasteletos de ojas dans la cuisine juive marocaine, ou bien les gâteaux au nord du Maroc appelé communément Pasteles qui n'on rien d'espagnole parfois que le nom, la darija marocaine été riche de mots d'origine espagnol comme escuela...même au centre du pays et non seulement au nord ou sur la cote atlantique la langue parlée compte un nombre considérable de vocabulaire espagnol, en fin je trouve que des villes qui ont l’âme andalouse plus que d'autres n'ont pas la pastilla comme recette phare dans leurs cuisine régionale mais c'est plus les villes impériales, les demeures des Caids et des Pachas qui l'ont conservée jalousement, et ce sont les dadas qui étaient les vrai chefs de cuisine de ces palais , qui ne sont pas du tout d'origine andalouse . En fin j'ai remarqué que le livre de l'écrivain andalou Ibn ArrazineAttijaibi Fodalat al khiwane fi tayibat atta3am wal alwane ne parle pas de la pastilla, sachant qu'il date du 13ème siècle et précisément de la période merinide, ni le livre de l'écrivain anonyme datant de l'époque Almohade, et selon une étude du Dr. Sijilmassi le fait d'ajouter les oeufs aux tajines marocains comme Lemcheber et autres...remonte au 16ème siècle, mais pour la pastilla j'ai assisté à de grands débats entre femmes qui discutaient précisément de l'utilisation des œufs : Certaines veulent les omettre car on les utilise pas dans la recette originale ???? la cuisine évolue les Hommes aussi, et la pastilla a due emprunter plusieurs couloirs de cuisine durant des siècles avant d'être rendue au stade de plat de grandes réceptions marocaines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.65.183.159 (talk) 23:16, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 May 2020

An Algerian had edited this page. Bastilla was not eaten in Algeria until recently, it is not a national dish of theirs. Every historian knows pastilla is a Moorish dish that spread to Morocco. The Algerians who immigrated to Tetouan in the 19th century had no impact on Moroccan culture, this dish has been eaten by the royal family for centuries. Batilla is uniquely Moroccan, the same way Gharnati music is Algerian. Leila.andalusi (talk) 17:36, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Please cite reliable sources for this. – Thjarkur (talk) 17:42, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

OPED and source misrepresentation

@SegoviaKazar: With regard to this edit:

You've already been made aware of the MOS:OPED guideline, so there is no reason for you to ignore it. If any of it is not clear to you, you can always ask for assistance at the Teahouse.

The "New Larousse Gastronomique" is not a scholarly source. Written by Chefs, journalists, restaurateurs, sommeliers, nutritionists, etc., any claim it makes in passing about history is irrelevant.

For the second source: I have no idea who C. Sinclair is, though a quick search reveals that he may well be a chef, but what is certain is that you misrepresented what the source says. M.Bitton (talk) 14:12, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@SegoviaKazar: This edit is not consistent with what Bouhlila's source say, so I suggest you stop misrepresenting the sources (the is the second source that you misrepresent). The second is, until proven otherwise, a claim by a chef and therefore irrelevant. M.Bitton (talk) 20:03, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: Go read the source instead of pretending that I misrepresented it

It says : "Turkish language and culture infused northern Morocco with new words, sartorial items, and consumption habits––including the custom of drinking coffee and a number of foods, especially sweets like baqlawa. While Bouhlila acknowledges that most Tetouanis consider bastila to be Andalusi, he suggests that the word itself is of Turkish origin and arrived with the Algerians."

... "Bouhlila’s study corroborated the theory that the paper-thin ouarka used to make bastila, as well as the name of the dish itself, were introduced to Morocco by way of Tetouani cuisine sometime after 1830"

So we need to correct what is written in the current text. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 20:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@SegoviaKazar: I have read both sources (Bouhlila's, that you obviously haven't read, and Gaul's) and I stick by the fact that you are misrepresenting what Bouhlila said. M.Bitton (talk) 20:30, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: I don't accept your personal attacks. So be courteous. This source is in Arabic so I refer to Gaul who quotes Bouhlila's work. Everything that is written in the article comes from the source of Gaul so this must be changed. You must respect what is said in the sources. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 20:49, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@SegoviaKazar: It's not an attack, it's a fact, you are misrepresenting what Bouhlila said. Contrary to what you claim, not everything is written based on Gaul's source alone, Bouhlila's source, that Gaul mentioned, is there to support exactly what he said. M.Bitton (talk) 20:55, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: "Bouhlila's, that you obviously haven't read" is a personnel attack so stop this. And I've already written you what Gaul's source says. And it doesn't match up with what's in the article.

It says : "Turkish language and culture infused northern Morocco with new words, sartorial items, and consumption habits––including the custom of drinking coffee and a number of foods, especially sweets like baqlawa. While Bouhlila acknowledges that most Tetouanis consider bastila to be Andalusi, he suggests that the word itself is of Turkish origin and arrived with the Algerians."

... "Bouhlila’s study corroborated the theory that the paper-thin ouarka used to make bastila, as well as the name of the dish itself, were introduced to Morocco by way of Tetouani cuisine sometime after 1830"

So this part needs to be modified in accordance with the source. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 21:12, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

If adding the Turkish origin of the name is all you're after, then it's a not problem, I will add it. M.Bitton (talk) 21:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@SegoviaKazar: What part of what Bouhlila said in his book don't you understand? M.Bitton (talk) 21:55, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

What you're doing is called vandalism. You're deflecting Gaul's source. And you're using Arabic sources on Wikipedia English. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 22:21, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

If you believe that's the case, then I suggest you take your concerns to WP:ANI and tell them exactly what you said here about using Arabic sources on Wikipedia English. In the meantime, I will ping إيان who was also involved in the edit in question that we reached through consensus. M.Bitton (talk) 22:31, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello, thanks for the ping M.Bitton. Regarding sources in Arabic, you are surely aware of Wikipedia:RSUE; you could have just informed SegoviaKazar instead of setting this user up for a trap at WP:ANI. Anyway, out of courtesy here is a translation of the relevant Arabic text from the Bouhlila source:

"And if Tetuani society was influenced in its daily life by some of the Ottoman expressions and clothing, then Tetuani cuisine was also influenced, with beautiful varieties and dishes, by Algerian Ottoman foods and sweets. Of these we mention:
Bastila: considered one of the delicacies of Tetuani cuisine, while there are those who say that it is of Andalusi origin.
Baklava: ..."

I interpret this not as an explicit statement that bastila is Algerian, but rather as a brief mention in a list of examples of how Tetuani cuisine was influenced by Ottoman Algeria. It explicitly mentions that Tetuanis consider bastila to be of Andalusi origin.

Anny Gaul, who cited Bouhlila in her research, suggests that merely the name and werqa pastry are Ottoman, citing Andalusi stew recipes resembling the filling and writing: While Bouhlila acknowledges that most Tetouanis consider bastila to be Andalusi, he suggests that the word itself is of Turkish origin and arrived with the Algerians. and Bouhlila’s study corroborated the theory that the paper-thin ouarka used to make bastila, as well as the name of the dish itself, were introduced to Morocco by way of Tetouani cuisine sometime after 1830.. إيان (talk) 00:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@إيان: Given the baseless accusations, I didn't feel the need to educate them.

I interpret this not as an explicit statement that bastila is Algerian Nobody is suggesting that it is, just like nobody is suggesting that the Baklava, the Coffee drinking, etc. are. Pastilla is cited as part of the things that were introduced to Morocco by Algerians, nothing more, nothing less. Thanks for the reply. M.Bitton (talk) 00:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: Cool. I like the way it is now; I don't think the Ken Abala bit adds much meaningful info. It would be nice to get info on all of those influences of post-invasion Algerian migrants to Tetuan together somewhere. I'm adding the fact to Invasion of Algiers in 1830. Let me know if you have more ideas. إيان (talk) 00:31, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@إيان: The current version of the article doesn't agree with what you said. Gaul, who cited Bouhlila, said that the word came with the Algerians.

Gaul had no theories. However, in the article it is written: "corroborating Gaul's theory that "

"posited that the dish was introduced into Morocco by the Algerians who migrated to Tétouan after the French invasion of Algiers in 1830". That's incorrect. That's not what Bouhlila says.

--SegoviaKazar (talk) 01:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@إيان: I would like to propose a new wording in accordance with the sources given. Because it seems clear that what is written in the current article doesn't respect the sources. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 19:58, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@SegoviaKazar:

• Gaul, who cited Bouhlila, said that the word came with the Algerians.—the word and the warqa pastry.
• Gaul had no theories.—She literally wrote:

  Bouhlila’s study corroborated the theory that the paper-thin ouarka used to make bastila, as well as the name of the dish itself, were introduced to Morocco by way of Tetouani cuisine sometime after 1830.

• I would like to propose a new wording in accordance with the sources given.What do you propose? إيان (talk) 22:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It is exactly what Bouhlila said in his book (unless you want to add that he refers to it as an Ottoman-Algerian dish). In fact even if we remove Gaul's source and all the content attributed to it, the part that is attributed to Bouhlila would still satisfy WP:VERIFIABILITY all by itself. M.Bitton (talk) 22:27, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: That's what I think too, but let's see what SegoviaKazar has to say. Also, the "Ottoman-Algerian" phrasing seems appropriate to me as filo pastry is typically an eastern Mediterranean thing. إيان (talk) 22:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello everybody, I'm sorry but I want to participate to the debate, in the book of Bouhlila, it's not read that pastilla came to Morocco by algerian refugee in Tetuan, currently in Morocco pastilla is not from Tetouan but from Fez, and it was a meat for "rich people", Tetouan was a little city in Morocco and have no big importance in Morocco, at the limit it's possible that ottomans refugee (from big city like Tlemcen) enter pastilla in Tetouan, but not in Morocco, this is not in the source. And we can see that today, pastilla is not a regular meat of Algeria and for evidance, I have a source more accurate about pastilla and even if the origin of pastilla is in debate, but for evidance what specialist are sure is that pastilla was from Morocco in North Africa.

As we can read from the specialist culinar Marin Wagda in french:

• "Car marocaine est la pastilla même si on la pratique avec tout autant d'art dans l'ouest de l'Algerie et la gastronomie maghrebinne moderne."

Source

So, we have an evidance here, that pastilla move from Morocco to all of north africa, and even in the world like Europe or America, it's become a part of the mondial gastronomy.

Have a nice day . Ifni95 (talk) 14:36, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

For what Bouhlila said, I suggest you read the above discussion.

You WP:OR about Tetuan is in direct contradiction to what Gaul and Bouhlila said.

Magda Warin's article is about the origin of the word "Pastilla", not the history of the dish. Who is Magda Warin, what are their credentials and what section of their article are you interested in? M.Bitton (talk) 23:30, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

But Gaul never said what you said: "Pastilla is cited as part of the things that were introduced to Morocco by Algerians, nothing more, nothing less." . In the article it speak only about the warqa and the name. So how we can interpret with what is wrote in the wikipedia page: "Pastilla is cited as part of the things that were introduced to Morocco by Algerians" this is not in the source.

The source said: "While Bouhlila acknowledges that most Tetouanis consider bastila to be Andalusi, he suggests that the word itself is of Turkish origin and arrived with the Algerians." . Look like a problem.

After, for my source this is an article special for pastilla and this is not only about the origin of the word as you can see

• "Car marocaine est la pastilla même si on la pratique avec tout autant d'art dans l'ouest de l'Algerie et la gastronomie maghrebinne moderne."

This is an important specifical source for the subject. Ifni95 (talk) 00:18, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

It's Bouhlila who said what's attributed to him in his book. Read the above discussion and you'll understand.

You haven't answered any of my questions. M.Bitton (talk) 00:41, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

This sentence "Pastilla is cited as part of the things that were introduced to Morocco by Algerians" is not in the source neither Gaul neither Bouhlila.

I don't understand your question ? Ifni95 (talk) 02:07, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Nor should it be. That's my comment in response to another editor that you're quoting.

You're just making me repeat myself unnecessarily: Magda Warin's article is about the origin of the word "Pastilla", not the history of the dish. This is clearly stated in her article.

As for the questions, here they are (again): Who is Magda Warin, what are their credentials and what section of their article are you interested in? M.Bitton (talk) 02:36, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm bad in english, I think you can speak french, are you ready to mix the debate with french ? We cannot choose the type of source to validate them. This is a study about pastilla, so this is a good source and this study give us an important information, so we have to use it, we can use the others source too.

• "Car marocaine est la pastilla même si on la pratique avec tout autant d'art dans l'ouest de l'Algerie et la gastronomie maghrebinne moderne."

This source is totally available.

And an other thing what it's write in this article is not true, I went to p128-129 of Bouhlila book in arabic, like it's write in the source of this article, this is absoluty not write what is quoting in this article.

So, it's look very strange to put information not written in the source

And sorry but my english is not good to explain. Ifni95 (talk) 18:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 10 April 2021

Gurleal (talk) 18:25, 10 April 2021 (UTC) I want to add something

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Jalen Folf (talk) 18:32, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2021

The Pastilla dish as it is today was developed by Moroccans, but was inspired by similar Spanish/Andalusian dish. It has nothing to do with Algerians, Algerians have little to no influence to their culture in comparison to Morocco. Algeria was an Ottoman the a French colony. Northern Morocco had a long history with Andalusia of Spain, and most of the expelled Moors settled in Morocco. It is the Algerians who took the dish from Moroccan in recent years.

In this section, where it is stated " The historian Idriss Bouhlila, while acknowledging that Tetuanis consider the dish to be of Andalusi origin, posited that the dish was introduced into Morocco by the Algerians who migrated to Tétouan after the French invasion of Algiers in 1830,[5] corroborating Gaul's theory that its name, which according to Bouhlila is of Turkish origin, and the werqa pastry used to make it spread from Tetuan to the rest of Morocco sometime after 1830."

It is known that Algerians including their "academics" attempt to falsify historical facts or reinterpret historical facts about particularly Morocco that's including essence of Moroccan cultural heritage.

Someone postulating is not a reference for proof of the claims. Warrior4just (talk) 04:41, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 06:15, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

@Warrior4just: I may have partially addressed some of your concerns by reworking that section slightly. I agree that the placement of the input from Idriss Bouhila suggesting a 19th century ahead of the other content suggesting a Moroccan origin in the 16th century was anachronistic in terms of order and arguably gave both undue emphasis to the former. I also agree that it is hard to find any details about this historian, who is clearly not particularly prominent. However, if you want to make specific claims about the transmission of the dish to Algeria, find sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:31, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

It is known that Algerians including their "academics" attempt to falsify historical facts Your claims are as baseless as your so-called concerns. The historian Idriss Bouhlila (who is mentioned by Anny Gaul) is Moroccan (sadly, he passed way last year). He was Professor of Higher Education at he faculty of Arts and Humanities at the University of Tetouan, Head of the history division, the Coordinator of the History and Civilization course and a Member of the Moroccan Association for Historical Research.[1][2]

Suggesting that he was somehow a second class historian is clearly nonsense. I have restored the paragraph to its original position and the sourced content that was deleted/changed without a valid reason. The fact that one historian corroborated the theory of another cannot be dismissed just because it hurts the feelings of some nationalists. I also removed the misleading disputed/unknown origin from the infobox. M.Bitton (talk) 12:46, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification over Idriss Bouhlila, but the sentence about a Turkish etymological origin theory being corroborated still needs to be preceded by an actual sentence proposing a Turkish etymological origin for one of the names. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:34, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

That's not what was corroborated. Please read the sentence again and don't reorder or delete sourced content as you did without giving a valid reason. M.Bitton (talk) 13:38, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok, which name? Pastilla, (رزيمة) or tajik? Iskandar323 (talk) 13:45, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

If you are not going to let other people edit for sense, at least do it yourself. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:46, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Pastilla (Bastilla). The "rzima" and "tajik" is what it's also known as in some areas (mainly the east of the country). If it's confusing, those two can be removed. M.Bitton (talk) 13:49, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Pastilla origins

There's a mistake in Pastilla's origin. It's Moroccan and nothing else. نوفل بنسعيد (talk) 23:50, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Cite your sources, نوفل بنسعيد. إيان (talk) 03:24, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Bouhlila book

Hello everybody,

I'm on the book of Driss Bouhlila and I don't find where Bouhlila said that the dish is algerian origin ? According to Bouhlila (I contact him few month ago), he never said that, he don't speak a lot but he supposed that the warqa was brought by ottomans from algiers when they install in Tetouan, but he never speak about the dish. Anne Gaul, based on Bouhlila informations said the same, here [3]. So, can you give me a source where Bouhlila said that please ? Thx. --SegoviaKazar (talk) 21:37, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Every time you get blocked on the French wiki, you turn up here with another story. I have no intention of entertaining this one as the previous discussion speak for themselves. M.Bitton (talk) 22:18, 8 November 2021 (UTC)