Talk:IOS version history/Archive 7

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Requested move 23 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: pages not moved. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 14:00, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

---

• iOS version history → iOS release history
• .NET Framework version history → .NET Framework release history
• Adobe Acrobat version history → Adobe Acrobat release history
• AmigaOS 4 version history → AmigaOS 4 release history
• AmigaOS version history → AmigaOS release history
• Android version history → Android release history
• AutoCAD version history → AutoCAD release history
• Debian version history → Debian release history
• Firefox early version history → Firefox early release history
• Firefox version history → Firefox release history
• FreeBSD version history → FreeBSD release history
• Google Chrome version history → Google Chrome release history
• HarmonyOS version history → HarmonyOS release history
• Inform version history → Inform release history
• Internet Explorer version history → Internet Explorer release history
• Java version history → Java release history
• Linux kernel version history → Linux kernel release history
• macOS version history → macOS release history
• MediaWiki version history → MediaWiki release history
• Microsoft Silverlight version history → Microsoft Silverlight release history
• Microsoft Windows version history → Microsoft Windows release history
• Perl 5 version history → Perl 5 release history
• Qt version history → Qt release history
• Safari version history → Safari release history
• TrueCrypt version history → TrueCrypt release history
• Ubuntu version history → Ubuntu release history
• WebOS version history → WebOS release history
• Windows 10 Mobile version history → Windows 10 Mobile release history
• Windows 10 version history → Windows 10 release history
• Windows 11 version history → Windows 11 release history
• Windows Phone version history → Windows Phone release history
• Zune software version history → Zune software release history

– Propose moving all articles from "version history" to "release history".

More WP:COMMON: Please see both of these Google Ngrams, separated, and combined. I know "release notes" is more common than "release history": but "release notes" refers to the list of changes that accompanies a specific release, while "release history" is the overview of all releases. The latter which is what we're looking for. (struck Dec 29th; see below)

Used by experts: in software engineering and in the published literature, "version history" tends to refer to the record of all changes made to an app, which includes internal, non-public builds (as in, version control). The term "release history" is typically used more specifically to refer to the timeline of official releases that have been made to the public, which is what interests us. The distinction is reflected, partly or fully, in these papers: [1][2][3] (I read the contents, not just the abstract). Also p.19 of this book, pp.32-33 of this book, pp.10, 144 of this book, and throughought this book

Used by industry: the term release doesn't just refer to major updates, it's used for minor updates too: Mozilla says "release calendar" and "release notes"; Chrome uses the term "releases" (again even for minor updates); Apple says "software releases" and "release notes", and seems to use "version" to refer merely to the number itself; same with Debian ("The latest release is Debian 11.6"); same with Ubuntu (which also calls minor/point updates "releases"); same with Linux ("bugfix kernel releases"); same with LibreOffice ("bug fix releases"); Microsoft list all updates, major and minor, under "release history" as the general topic. edit: found that Arm, Samba, and Malwarebytes also use the term. 04:46, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

"Release history" also just sounds better, and slightly more formal.

See the above discussion for previous context. DFlhb (talk) 17:19, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

• @No such user @Herbfur @Old Naval Rooftops, pinging previous participants, just in case. DFlhb (talk) 17:21, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose – They're called software versions, not software releases (that's a different thing). The versions are what's being released, but we're documenting the versions being released and not the dates and times of the releases. I've also never heard of the term "release history" being used. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:18, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

  Mind clarifying what you mean by that Wikilink? They are called software releases, which is where the term release lifecycle comes from (and a release lifecycle is not at all the same thing as a release history). DFlhb (talk) 04:56, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

  Software release life cycle refers to the development stages before a software product is released to the public (i.e. dev, beta). A "software release" would mean that the final version of a software product is being rolled out to the general public. Updates after that, we call those software versions, or software updates. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:16, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

  I know what the lifecycle is; programming is my hobby (though sadly not my main career). The distinction you claim exists, does not exist, as shown by all the large corporations I linked above that use software release (or release, as a noun, not a verb) to refer to bug fix updates. I recommend you don't base your opinion on a poorly-sourced Wikipedia article: after you reach the release stage of the life cycle, you enter the maintenance phase, and issue maintenance releases (that's another poorly sourced article, but an accurate one). The life cycle argument is a tangent that doesn't address our issue at all. DFlhb (talk) 06:09, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

• Leaning support for the reasons provided above. O.N.R. ^(talk) 05:08, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - The first ngram provided contradicts the notion that "release history" is more common than "version history", it has to be combined with an unrelated term, "release notes" to make it seem higher. This ngram is much more reflective of actual usage, and release notes should not be a factor here because release notes and version history are not mutually exclusive terms. I went to the first three big Debian-based distros I could think of (Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Debian) and all three use "version" rather than "release" to describe their most recent versions. Once you strip out the unrelated but similar concepts of release notes and the release cycle and examine the actual proposed titles on their own merits, sources appear to support the current title structure over the proposed one. - Aoidh (talk) 08:26, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

  Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Debian From my reading, all three refer to their list of versions as "releases"?[4][5][6]. Though Mint does use both. DFlhb (talk) 21:43, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

  Depends on what page you're looking at, because Ubuntu's documentation also very specifically uses version as does your Debian link. Regardless it's kind of moot since "version history" is what is specifically being discussed rather than simply "version" compared to "release", and nothing presented supports a move to the proposed titles. - Aoidh (talk) 18:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

  Right; everyone agrees that version is the correct term to refer to a version number, as in your link. It's my preferred table header here too. But I think the confusion is my fault: in the proposal, I emphasize about how "industry" uses releases for minor versions, when I should have instead focused on the fact that I deliberately picked only links that show an overview of versions/releases, and they all prefer the term releases to versions in that specific context. I didn't just pick random links that contain the word releases (like... you did for "version" :) ). DFlhb (talk) 20:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

• oppose there are multiple reasons for oppose, one of which is WP:COMMONNAME. Also "release history" is kind of shorthand for "version release history", so "version history" is actually more formal. Also per Infinite Nexus, and Aoidh. —usernamekiran (talk) 16:51, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose I know "release notes" is more common than "release history" and that's where the argument starts to fall. The Ngram provided has version history above release history with hits. Invalidates the entire argument. Also, because it sounds better is hardly a reason. WP:COMMON does not apply to every case provided here - it's a big assumption with costly consequences. – The Grid (talk) 21:55, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per evidence above with no objection to separate proposals where a specific software package self-references itself as "release history". —Locke Cole • t • c 22:20, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
• Indifferent. No strong feelings one way or the other. SWinxy (talk) 23:23, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose as "release history" is not only the same as "version history" but also a shorthand for "version release history" so I'd still go with "version history". Giorgos456 (talk) 17:23, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: I regret bringing up Ngram, my most minor point, which requires judgment to interpret. After browsing through 10 pages of Google Books results for "version history", I found only a single result about software; the rest were about document version history (as in, Google Docs or SharePoint) or databases (as in, data nodes), not software. Your mileage may vary. Given that, I think the industry survey I give is far more informative. I'll strike my point about WP:COMMON, and offer a new argument, in addition to my remaining two: "version history" is IMO the best fit for barebones WP:Lists, but "release history" fits better with what our articles actually contain (some release notes, context, etc). DFlhb (talk) 19:49, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. This was a worthwhile discussion but the choice is between options of roughly equal merit. Given no compelling reason to change, the status quo should therefore remain. As has been noted, the proposal seems to motivated in large part by personal bias in the interpretation of the key terms. The given arguments to change regarding "industry" this-or-that are unconvincing. Perhaps not within whatever circles or company which has shaped the proposer's view but I think the terms "release" and "version" are more ambiguous in general usage than is being assuming. Jason Quinn (talk) 00:55, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hardware support

I've changed the hardware support tables. The previous ones had unnecessary color (MOS:TABLE recommends against color for decorative purposes), and were unsustainable, since they would continuously expand along both horizontal and vertical axes. I think my version is more tidy & clean, and it also only grows in one dimension instead of two.

See comparison here: new table, and old table.

I propose we remove the first table: its "end of support" columns are now redundant, which means all the table adds is list of major versions and release dates (uninformative). Frankly, I'd also support just removing all three tables, since people can go on the articles for individual models to see the first & last supported version, and it would keep this page focused on iOS proper. DFlhb (talk) 04:19, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I think we should remove all the tables relating to specific models' supported iOS versions. Back in 2021, they weren't part of this article, and the information was still available on specific devices' pages (ex: the iPad Air page) - I was on Wikibreak when they were added. I think we should revert to this, and the new tables, which I think are more concise and readable, can be added to the relevant device pages.Herbfur (Eric, He/Him) (talk) 22:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Adding on, I just checked, and there are relevant tables with OS support info on the iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPad pages. Thus, I think the entire section is redundant and should be removed.Herbfur (Eric, He/Him) (talk) 22:25, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Agreed DFlhb (talk) 22:35, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

You can’t copyright facts. The changelog becomes fact as soon as it is published. The wiping of the full iOS version history from Wikipedia is chilling and disgraceful.

Maybe Wikipedia isn’t the resource I thought it was. 2601:442:4500:DD40:2900:B71D:D27:E4BE (talk) 08:29, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Anyone, at any time, can take it upon themselves to grab the old version (get it from archive.org or by asking admins), check which parts are verbatim copy/pastes, rewrite those parts, and add it back to this article once it is problem-free. That means you, or anyone else. This page isn't bothering anyone, no matter how many tables it has, and the world will keep going 'round' even without this page having a Good Article badge.

Note, this doesn't mean it's fine to bring back copyright violations unmodified; just rewrite them first. DFlhb (talk) 11:25, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

You can't copyright ideas but you can copyright individual expressions. Apple's wording is an expression of facts. ViperSnake151  Talk  19:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Screenshots should be moved to a gallery

The way the screenshots are just in one big row look really out of place, and messes with the tables. I would argue the screenshots would be better served by a gallery at the bottm of the page. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 01:24, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

They're only in a big row because of the missing tables. Since those tables are collapsed, I think it'll look quite nice. Please wait until I'm done and see what you think then. DFlhb (talk) 01:52, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Also, to explain why I brought them back: the pushback shows that people value these articles for their technical comprehensiveness, not their fancy prose. I can see the tables' utility, and given that there's no other website than Wikipedia that could reasonably host all this detail and be high-profile enough that it could be assumed to be reasonably accurate, we easily justify bending the rules a little. The high page views & immediate pushback are further justifications.

We should still always link to official release notes, so copyvio can be easily checked and nipped in the bud, and so people can see the full thing. DFlhb (talk) 02:19, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

@DFlhb: I am one of those people who wanted the tables back, haha. I put a lot of work into the tables in the past, I was the one who actually designed the iOS version table template and its version sibling. I also was one of the editors who tried wherever possible to avoid any potential copyright violations. I always tried my best to custom write the release notes for versions, but then I took a break from Wikipedia for a while, to the point where plagiarized release notes became the norm again, sadly. I'm glad you're going through the trouble of adding them back. Thank you. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 04:33, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm done—this is a start, but it's too time-consuming. I'd appreciate if you could take over from here; the previous source code is here, and there's Earwig's tool. I'll also bring back the iPad product codes, since they're still relevant here for pre-iOS 13 versions. DFlhb (talk) 05:43, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

@DFlhb: I can try and bring back the tables for the rest of the versions, although they won't be added at a super quick pace, due to risk of burnout. I'll add them whenever I can though. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 23:55, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I have to say that I'm happy now that the tables are coming back and they look better than ever. I also notices that the later release tables did not link to Apple's security notes while most of the older ones did. Looks like that's been fixed now. SSoto21 (talk) 15:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Permanent deletion of this article's history – why? by whom?

I wonder who is responsible for the huge, permanent (!) deletion of the (almost) entire history of this article since its start of on 6 March 2008!?? We could almost assume that Apple itself is acting here by proxy people? Just a thought. -- ZH8000 (talk) 13:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

It was removed per WP:PROPERSPLIT, which expects a "good summary" to be present in the main article of any material in articles split from this one. The tables, in their current form, are more detailed here than on any of the sub-articles. ~UN6892 ^t_c 14:10, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTCHANGELOG was another reason they were removed given most of the info was not covered in third-party sources, though the splitting guideline was the primary reason this time, see the thread above. ~UN6892 ^t_c 14:19, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

That's a separate issue; the revisions were deleted per #Widespread copyvio, after my report. ZH8000, I have zero affiliation with Apple, don't see why Apple would want the changelogs deleted, and am maybe the most active editor at WP:APPLE so I can hardly be accused of anti-Apple bias. UN6892: I disagree on your interpretation; I view this article as the child article of both iOS and the iOS major release articles, the same way WP:NOTSTATS views this as a child article of this. This article's purpose was (IMO) to unburden iOS and its main-releases articles from overly detailed information that wouldn't interest most readers, again just like that NOTSTAT example, where this was split from that. (If the iOS major releases articles went through WP:FAC, I doubt the tables would be tolerated there.) I have a very slight preference for having them here rather than in the iOS major release articles; though not a strong opinion either way. DFlhb (talk) 14:24, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Note that I have no strong opinion on this, and doing it the other way around also makes sense (as Guy Harris prefers). Would welcome other opinions, and I'll note that my "NOTSTAT interpretation of NOTCHANGELOG" is unconventional and shouldn't be assigned much weight. But these tables definitely shouldn't be duplicated in two places. DFlhb (talk) 08:49, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Looks like we're now up to at least 3 vs. 1 on the "child article vs parent article" debate. Cool by me. Courtesy-pinging Pppery. DFlhb (talk) 08:22, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, I'm personally not even convinced that the tables belong on the child articles as opposed to nowhere. But that's not something really worth getting into an extended argument over. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:15, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

@ZH8000 It was due to the rampant copyright violations (see WP:CV) where editors to the page would pretty much copy-paste Apple's release notes to the release notes column. Not sure why the revisions at the very start of the page's history were deleted as well, but that was something an adminstrator decided. If you want to view old revisions, I'm pretty sure the Wayback Machine has a lot of saved copies. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 04:52, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm against the deletion of this page, but if you delete this, we should delete MediaWiki version history and any page in Category:Software version histories too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.255.79.164 (talk) 08:49, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Pedantry

There is no reason to constantly request deletion of this very useful page other than pedantry. This is why I hate to ever participate in Wikipedia, because of the tendentious, egotistical pedants that love to delete anything useful. Yes, you who want to delete this page are a pedant. Loknar (talk) 11:01, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Widespread copyvio

AFAIK, Apple's release notes are copyrighted. We should link to them, not copy-paste them here verbatim. Link to Apple's official site whenever possible, not a third-party site; and make sure to archive those pages since they'll likely be taken down after the next version is released.

macOS Ventura is a great example of how to release history tables very well (the table is also much more readable, and we should imitate its concision and color scheme). DFlhb (talk) 13:10, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Given that it's not a single table cell, I'll list findings here:

• The very first revision inserts verbatim copyvio of Apple's 1.1.1 release notes (material was taken from iPhone, but was added to that page after the MacRumors article came out). The release notes are short enough that they don't trip Earwig's detector, but they're copied in their entirety. Removed in this diff
• This diff inserted Apple's official iPhone OS 2.1 release notes; this stayed for years, but the wording drifted, some phrases were still present verbatim (like "Improved email reliability, notably fetching email..."), removed in this diff.
• Later, this diff introduced clear copyvio of this forum post; the insertions were cited to that same forum post, so it's clear the post came first; they were mostly removed in this diff.
• More minor copyvio of Apple's official release notes: 2.2.1, 3.0.1, 4.2.9, 4.2.10, 4.3.1, 4.3.3, 4.3.4, 4.3.5
• This diff inserted copyvio. So did this one (from here).
• this diff introduces verbatim copyvio of Apple's notes, still present until days ago.
• Likely copyvio already back in 2011.
• The following were all present until days ago, but I haven't checked when they were added:
• iOS 5: 5.0.1, two sentence are taken verbatim (but minor), 5.1, three sentences identical or almost (Photo Stream, "louder and clearer", podcast controls), 5.1.1, almost verbatim vio
• iOS 6: clear vio (6.0.1, 6.1.5). A few are minor vios: 6.1.1, 6.1.2, 6.1.3 6.1.4.
• iOS 7: vio (7.0.2, 7.0.3, 7.0.4, 7.0.5, 7.1, 7.1.1, 7.1.2).
• iOS 8: vio (8.1, 8.1.3, 8.2, 8.3, 8.4, 8.4.1). Two, 8.0 (China) and 8.1.2 are minor vio. Also 8.0.1 and 8.0.2.
• iOS 9: vio (9.0, 9.0.1, 9.0.2, 9.1, 9.2, 9.3.1, 9.3.2).
• iOS 10: vio (10.0, 10.0.2, 10.1, 10.1.1, 10.2). A few, 10.2.1 and 10.3 (podcasts, voiceover) are minor.
• iOS 11: vio (11.0, 11.1, 11.1.1, 11.2, 11.2.5, 11.2.6, 11.3, 11.3.1, 11.4, 11.4.1). One, 11.1.2 is borderline.

Will keep adding as I check each version. Stopping at iOS 11. DFlhb (talk) 17:48, 31 December 2022 (UTC) (updated 22:12)

Remember also, as per Wikipedia:Copyright violations § Parts of article violate copyright, to add {{copyvio-revdel}} as appropriate, to get copyright violations purged from the page's edit history. Guy Harris (talk) 20:45, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, didn't know about it. Will wait to do that until vios are cleared from the current version.

It seems the iPhone OS 1.1.1 copyvio was here since the very first revision of this page, and came from this 19 November 2007 diff of iPhone. It appears to be Apple's official release notes, shared by several outlets on 27 September 2007.[7][8]

As for my list, I stopped checking at iOS 11; it's too time-consuming, and I've already confirmed numerous issues; a quick skim also shows substantial vio for more recent iOS versions, including the most recent ones. A more time-efficient solution may be to nuke all release notes from the table entirely (I can do it if you agree; would also help with WP:NOTCHANGELOG), unless someone wants to take the time to rewrite & rescue them. DFlhb (talk) 22:12, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Given that most if not all iOS major version articles have their own minor release tables, which appear to have a sytle more like that in the macOS major version articles - and given that, with copyright violations spread among a large number of edits, so that most edits to the page wuld be blanked - I think the "kill the detailed release notes" solution might be appropriate here. We might even want to reduce this page to a major release summary page similar to macOS version history, also killing the minor release tables. Guy Harris (talk) 23:09, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Agree. I've removed the tables entirely, to bring things more in line with the macOS article. There's other good reasons to remove them: they're utterly useless to mobile users & blind (screen reader) users, and they're an uninteresting lists of numbers and features.

By my standards, this article could never pass GA-review without losing the tables. Hopefully the article can be recentered around encyclopedic synthesis and valuable context instead. DFlhb (talk) 03:50, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

@DFlhb let's be honest; every time that there is a reference to a security issue, iUsers feel ashamed and every reason is a good reason to remove it to leave the perception of their loved products as much secure as possible. 109.118.86.49 (talk) 10:55, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

History cleaned out and semi-protection applied. Please let me know if the copyvio continues. MER-C 04:44, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Will do; thanks. Must have been quite tedious clearing all the revisions; thank you for your work! DFlhb (talk) 12:05, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

I am not happy with this. You guys just deleted a bunch of history those tables were really useful and now they are all gone. Also a bunch of revisions were destroyed in just a short amount of time. Probably won't do anything to say anything about this but I don't like this change at all. SSoto21 (talk) 16:39, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

That's just my opinion. Not sure if those tables really were a copyright violation or not. SSoto21 (talk) 17:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

I posted here a month ago, so people could look at it and rescue what they could, but people either missed it or thought "who cares, it's just release notes", and here we are.

More generally, this hoopla is a great reason not to have detailed changelogs on Wikipedia. They attract IP users that don't care about copyvio, and they're obscure enough that nobody caught it for 14 years (in fact, only made it worse over the years). That's why WP:CHANGELOG exists.

Imagine Apple lists 20 bullet points in their release notes for a given version; and there's also two changes Apple didn't mention. We paraphrase the twenty, and mention the two; but the "two" will get lost in the mix. Those two changes belong outside the table, in prose. So why not just have the tables link to Apple's release notes, instead of a close paraphrase?

And if what you're missing from the tables isn't the release notes, but the device compatibility info (fair enough), then feel free to bring back the hardware support tables. I agreed with someone else to delete, but two people isn't remotely a binding consensus. DFlhb (talk) 14:40, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I actually looked at the Release tables for Mac OS Ventura and they looked clean and nice. We should have something like that here. Also, you make some good points about the tables. SSoto21 (talk) 00:51, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

In that case, it might make sense to keep the tables synced between this article and the version-specific articles, which would entail moving these tables to templates and embedding them. Do feel free to do so if you wish.

I changed the iOS 16 table to look like the Ventura one (see revision), but was reverted by an IP user, and no one participated in the subsequent discussions; feel free to bring that back.

There's still an issue that if the tables are brought here, the article would be ~80% tables (if not more) and ~20% prose, even if we replace the release notes with links. And there's no links for the release notes to the first four versions of iOS, so those tables would be even longer. We could put all the tables at the end, but that doesn't feel quite right. Are you sure it's worth it to bring the tables here? The prose here could be significantly expanded, and I worry that if we add tables again, most of the editing attention will just go to them, instead of going into build a really solid, encyclopedic summary of major changes in each iOS version.

We don't list minor versions in Microsoft Windows, for example. What I have in mind is something like Android version history, but in prose (or list), rather than in tables. DFlhb (talk) 02:56, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

My inclination is to have this page give, for each major release, the most significant features, with minor releases mentioned only for significant features that don't show up in the .0 release, and leave the details to the individual release page. (That would be my inclination for all version history pages.) Guy Harris (talk) 03:43, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

If I may be forgiven for posting so many comments, here's what I envision this article looking like if it were FA-class:

• hatnotes to the main articles under each header, so those links are more prominent
• under each heading, several paragraphs giving an overview of major changes, with the paragraphs grouping changes by theme (for example, a paragraph on multitasking, another on collaboration), to keep it very readable and avoid density
• screenshots of the home page for each release, to illustrate the changes
• no tables

Seems like that covers all the bases. DFlhb (talk) 03:55, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Home page as in home screen? Guy Harris (talk) 04:35, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Exactly; the same screenshots used in our version-specific articles. DFlhb (talk) 04:51, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

On January 24, I restored a "cleaned-up" table for iOS 7, which has since been rev-del'd as copyvio of https://ijunkie.com/ios-7-features/ (the iOS 9 table was also rev-del'd, but I didn't add that). I'd never heard of iJunkie, and didn't rely on it to redraft the table, so I checked. The iJunkie article is dated September 18, 2013, the exact release date of iOS 7. But it looks like the site simply didn't exist at that time. The specific article has also not been archived prior to February 2, after my edit. I also notice that the parts copyvio'd by iJunkie were not ones rewritten by me, but parts that have been in our article since 2013, and that I checked weren't copyvio before adding them back; so I'm certain they copied Wikipedia rather than the reverse. I'll note that I also systematically checked my additions using Earwig's tool, and made sure they came back negative.

JJMC89, I don't mind this, I just hope this doesn't happen across other articles. Article publication dates are extremely easy to alter; using any CMS, I can publish an article today and set its date to "3 January 2005" with just two clicks; it's something to be mindful about. Regardless, thanks for your good work, it's much appreciated — DFlhb (talk) 12:30, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

The issue wasn't just the iJunkie publication date, which I don't think was faked. The copied text was in Template:IOS 7 on 18 September 2013, so I missed it when I checked the article for the text since the template is now deleted. I've undone the revdel for the iOS 7 part. — JJMC89 (T·C) 22:01, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Makes sense; thanks a lot for checking — DFlhb (talk) 22:10, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Release notes need to be deleted

Regardless of whether or not the release notes are copyvios, they are not encyclopedic and do not meet Wikipedia's inclusion policy. In particular articles are not exhaustive logs of software updates: "Use reliable third-party (not self-published or official) sources in articles dealing with software updates to describe the versions listed or discussed in the article. Common sense must be applied with regard to the level of detail to be included." If you are collapsing the content by default (which should only be done to navigation templates, never to article content), that is a clear indication that the level of detail is excessive and unwarranted. Nosferattus (talk) 20:11, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

As the release notes were a clear violation of WP:NOTCHANGELOG and the encyclopedic information about the releases was already provided in the article prose, I went ahead and deleted the release note tables. If there is more information that needs to be provided in the article, please add it to the article prose and cite it to reliable third-party sources (not Apple release notes). Nosferattus (talk) 20:28, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I will mention that the release tables you removed are still present in the individual OS articles, eg. iPhone OS 1, iPhone OS 2, etc. Also pinging @Chris Ssk, who reverted your changes at Firefox version history. ChromeGames (talk · contribs) 12:31, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm repeating my comment from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Firefox version history (2nd nomination). These articles go beyond a changelogs. They show the history and evolution of the software and. If these articles are against policy then all articles in Category:Software version histories (and sections in most software articles) should be deleted and Wikipedia will be poorer because of it Chris Ssk _talk 21:16, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

@Chris Ssk: I didn't say anything about deleting any articles and no one is arguing that the information isn't useful. The problem is that the changelog tables are not encyclopedic and the Wikipedia community has decided by consensus that such changelog tables do not belong in Wikipedia articles (which are intended to be concise summaries of topics, not exhaustive sources of information). It doesn't matter if other articles already include them. The policy still applies. Nosferattus (talk) 22:00, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

@Nosferattus not encyclopedic? According to who's standard? You mention a consensus, but as these articles have existed for many years, and you are the only person on the planet to object to these articles' content, I would argue that you are breaking the consensus, not the literally entire other edit base for these articles. Daemonspudguy (talk) 02:50, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

@Daemonspudguy: I'm definitely not the only person that has objected to the content of these articles. Regardless, a policy is a policy. If you beleive that WP:NOTCHANGELOG is no longer based on consensus, you should get it changed. Pretending that it doesn't exist or apply isn't an option. Nosferattus (talk) 03:01, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

@Nosferattus I checked the AfD for Firefox version history, and I found that the vast majority of people has decided to keep. You and like 2 other people have said to delete. Daemonspudguy (talk) 03:07, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

you're also the only one to take the brash and (imho) irresponsible action of almost entirely blanking an article. Daemonspudguy (talk) 03:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

@Daemonspudguy: I have NEVER suggested deleting any articles related to version histories. Why are you making up lies about me? Do you really think it makes sense that this article is larger than Wikipedia's article on World War II? I'm sure you realize that we could include a lot more information about World War II, but we don't because it's an encyclopedia article, and it's supposed to be a short summary. Does that make sense to you? Nosferattus (talk) 21:42, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

@Nosferattus and I never said you did suggest deleting them. Why are you making up lies about me? Daemonspudguy (talk) 21:45, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I know you are, but what am I? lol. I can tell this is going to be a productive conversation. Nosferattus (talk) 21:53, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

To chime in, just because the World War II article has less bytes, doesn't mean that this article alone is larger. Wikipedia has hundreds of articles on various World War II topics. The entire collection of World War II material on Wikipedia severely surpasses even this article. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 23:22, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

the majority of keep are invalid because there arugement was not based on policy and some accounts were single purpose. 1keyhole (talk) 21:54, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

by the same argument i could argue the delete are invalid as take one suggestion way out of context

WP:NOTCHANGELOG is NOT about banning such pages, its about avoiding other pages getting clogged down, your taking the literal of a text rather than the spirit of the rule, i am of the opinion WP:NOTCHANGELOG should be re-written to empisise this Popeter45 (talk) 23:16, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I tried to delete them, separately from the copyvio, and the backlash was strong enough that I took the time to rewrite them and bring (most of) them back. I regret that I didn't just disregard the backlash and stick with policy (call me naive, I'd deserve it). The rough consensus back in October (between me, Guy_Harris, and I think SSoto21) was to make it look more like macOS version history, and move the tables to the main articles for each iOS release (keeping only the "useful" parts, i.e. version, release date & noteworthy changes, but getting rid of the full release notes). Still seems like the best option, and I'm still willing to implement it if you agree with it. DFlhb (talk) 14:46, 17 April 2023 (UTC) reworded word salad 17:38, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

The tables were not "exhaustive logs". They barely touched the surface of the changes included in iOS versions. They are a high-level overview, and were rewritten to be such back when DFlhb rewrote the tables. And I've also made significant efforts on my side to help the article not fall afoul of the changelog policy. It would be different if they were straight up copy pastes, but they aren't. They are unique takes on the changes included in iOS versions, with most of the not so major changes not included. With the previous backlash and consensus back in October regarding the removal of the tables, it was concluded that the tables are heavily wanted and desired, as they offer a high level overview of historic and current iOS versions that no other site can match, nor do any other sites have the reputation that Wikipedia does when it comes to information. Trying to change consensus again would require another major conversation, one that I'm quite frankly unwilling to participate in as its always the more negative editors nowadays that participate in these conversations when typical methods are used.

The summaries above the tables don't detail the major changes in each iOS version at all, they only go over device support and are basically repeats of one another, making them heavily useless. Yes, more sources need to be used throughout the article to satisfy secondary sourcing, but otherwise, based on consensus, the tables are wanted - Android version history had this exact same debate, and as well had an entire AfD discussion. That whole debate is the exact reason why WP's changelog policy even had its wording changed to begin with, to protect articles like Android version history from deletion, according to archive 45 on the WP:NOT talkpage. - Evelyn Marie (leave a message · contributions) 23:19, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

high-level overview ... were rewritten to be such: My only goal was removing the copyvio, though that did involve trimming almost 50% of the table text DFlhb (talk) 01:17, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Another issue with the tables

I have looked through the entries for the first few iPhone OS/iOS releases and have found them to be more detailed than at each version's main article. We should have a summary at each version per WP:PROPERSPLIT so whether the tables should be included on Wikipedia (per WP:NOTCHANGELOG), they should not be on this page in their current form. ~UN6892 ^t_c 22:20, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

That's the consensus we reached back in January. If you want to know why it wasn't implemented: there was pushback to the deletion, so I sought to compromise by having the tables only be here, and removed from the main iOS articles. I reasoned that would be fine, since WP:NOTSTATS similarly explicitly allows 100% primary-sourced unencyclopedic articles like this as a way to unclutter the main articles. Only, when I deleted the tables from the dedicated iOS articles, that got reverted, so I just stopped and left to work on articles I cared more about. Further background is available in this comment of mine, which I deleted because I saw no chance of reaching solid (5+ editors) consensus on anything, given how few people were active here. (Also, I saw the version tables the same way I see tables in most articles: stuff I would hate to maintain, but if others care for them, "live and let live", not my business to delete.) DFlhb (talk) 22:56, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I typically don't try to reinstate my edits unless I think my edits were clearly based in policies and guidelines, which I think they would be in this case. I think a short bit about changes in minor updates may be warranted, but a table definitely isn't. ~UN6892 ^t_c 23:45, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Not sure which edits you're referring to; do you mean my removals from the individual articles? DFlhb (talk) 00:00, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I meant removing the tables from this article. The tables themselves (if they were moved to another article) can probably be smaller given WP:NOTCHANGELOG expects RS coverage but that doesn't change that the tables should not be here in their present state. ~UN6892 ^t_c 00:02, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Yeah. I'm used to AMPOL2, where my approach is generally discuss first (avoid "Bold/revert") and treating every page as if it was 0RR/1RR regardless of actual restriction. But agreed, I'll reinstate. Tables can be moved to the dedicated articles, heavily trimmed, and properly cited — DFlhb (talk) 00:22, 7 May 2023 (UTC)