Talk:First Vision

Talk:First Vision/Archive 1: 24 October 2006

Talk:First Vision/Archive 2: 28 May 2007

Talk:First Vision/Archive 3: 26 June 2007

Talk:First Vision/Archive 4: 18 July 2007

Talk:First Vision/Archive 5: 31 July 2007

Talk:First Vision/Archive 6: 29 August 2007

Scope change from LDS church to LDS movement churches

This one is easier to explain. 'LDS Church' typically refers to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, sometimes called the 'Utah' church, and by far the largest denomination of the Latter Day Saint movement. The 'movement' refers to all denominations that trace their ancestory back to Joseph Smith, Jr. and claim to be the legitimate successor to the church he organized in 1830 (for more information see Succession crisis). This criticism is related to the 'JS Jr., made it up' POV I explained above, and goes something like this:

Not only did JS, Jr. make up the FV, his immediate successors knew that he did, that's why they never talked about it! But later leaders were desperate for something to strengthen the faith of the Church after stopping the practice of plural marriage, so they siezed on the First Vision, after all, it's such a good story and those silly mormons are all so gullible, they believe everything their leaders tell them! 74s181 03:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

And of course the other LDS movement churches all had so much love and respect for the Utah church (after the bitter |succession fight) that they immediately followed their lead and also adopted the FV as a core doctrine after having kept it a secret from their members for over 50 years. And this is why all the LDS movement denominations teach the FV as a foundational event today, even though it wasn't 'emphasized' in the early church. 74s181 11:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure. And if you believe all of that I have some spare indulgences to sell you.<g> 74s181 11:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course, not all the criticisms of the FV are as silly as this, but they all work better when presented as 'historical facts' in an 'encyclodepedic tone' rather than as 'criticism'. I don't insist they be labeled 'criticism', I would be satisfied if the implied conclusions were explicitly stated, labeled 'opinion' or 'interpretation', whatever you want, properly attributed, and balanced, all as prescribed in WP:NPOV. 74s181 03:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

But John Foxe won't allow it. This is the crux of the biscuit, this is the one issue that has created so much contention on this article, this is why I was so excited when I thought he was finally getting it in Talk:First_Vision#A_separate_section.3F. 74s181 03:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

74, can you provide citations for the stated fact that "...most [Latter Day Saint denominations] teach that the vision ended the Great Apostasy, inaugurated the Latter Day Saint movement, and laid a foundation for the theology and authority of Mormon churches."? The fact is new to me, and I would appreciate a pointer or some references to educate me before we discuss this further. Tom Haws 19:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought that 'ended the Great Apostasy' was something you added, Tom Haws. Or, maybe you're questioning whether 'most' LDS denominations believe this. I didn't think any of this is disputed, but if so, I think there are adequate references in the 'Beliefs' section. 74s181 00:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

"maybe you're questioning whether 'most' LDS denominations believe this" That's right. I honestly don't know. I know the LDS Church view. But I don't think (though I don't know for sure) that it is the standard sympathetic view. We want to present the consensus sympathetic view, but I am not sure what that might be. Tom Haws 18:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

By 'sympathetic view' do you mean, the view of those 'sympathetic' to the FV, or in other words, those who believe 'something' happened? If so, I have to say that most of the LDS denominations that I know about teach that the Great Apostasy occurred, and that JS, Jr., was called by God to restore His church. The Community of Christ has de-emphasized the 'apostasy' aspect of the FV, so 'ended the Great Apostasy' doesn't apply to them, so 'most' is probably correct. The First_Vision#Community_of_Christ section explains this, I don't think it is a detail we need to cover in the lead, but if someone wants to suggest different wording I say, go for it, but I think there are much bigger problems in the article than this. 74s181 00:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

We're making progress

Les has made some profitable changes. I especially liked the way he handled the first paragraph of the lead.

Nevertheless, as I've said all along, I oppose any suggestion that historical evidence is "criticism" (or "opinion" or "interpretation"). Facts are facts. As such, they have no POV regardless of how distressing they may be to the faithful. It's fine to note how Mormon apologists try to deal with awkward evidence, but the facts themselves are not criticism and cannot be labeled as such.

There's no reason to debate Joseph Smith's character here. Seeing visions wasn't all that uncommon in that time and place. There's no reason to say that Smith was a liar. Let the reader make that judgment for himself.--John Foxe 14:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your positive outlook. I feel that with patience and good faith in one another we can hopefully come up with an article that won't attract POV edits and will be a self-evidently reasonable piece of reporting. Perhaps if I can help unpeel the core issues, we can then impose on a few other editors to review a brief synopsis and join us for a few days to forge a weighty consensus. Tom Haws 19:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

John, please tell me if I understand right what you are saying. You believe that there are facts that should be given first billing in the article, and that those facts should be identified as such. You also believe that your ideas can be implemented without making Joseph Smith look bad. Did I understand you correctly, or did I twist something? Tom Haws 20:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

It's the historical evidence, not my non-Mormon POV, that's important. Historical facts should be determinative and will be so long as they're not labeled opinion, interpretation, or criticism needing "balance" from Mormon apologetics.--John Foxe 22:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

John, the problem we keep running into is what you perceive as "historical facts". Quite often, they are perceptions about facts, not the facts themselves. For example, "Possible anachronisms" is (IMHO) a POV statement rather then "Differences". We all agree there are differences between various accounts, but we don't all agree that there are discrepancies or anachronisms. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle) ^(Talk) 02:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

That's why I used the term "Possible anachronisms." Mormons can respond to the historical evidence so long as facts are not called criticism and the response is identified as Mormon apologetics. I've just laid out the historical evidence.--John Foxe 15:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

And I repeat that "Differences" is NPOV. Someone could say "Possible fraud" and claim that they were simply presenting historical facts. What you call historical evidence, I call interpretation of historical facts. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle) ^(Talk) 18:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Then you need to prove that the "possible anachronisms" are interpretations rather than facts as certain as the fact that "Mars is a planet." The one you removed is not in the "Mars is a planet" category, although if Smith had seen something so contrary to the orthodoxy of his day, we might have expected clearer explication of this startlingly new doctrine. Of course, it's possible to "call" any of the anachronisms interpretations, but that doesn't make them so.

John Foxe, you've already agreed that there are many apologetic responses to the so-called 'possible anachronisms'. These responses do not argue that the excerpts are not accurate quotes from the FV, but they do argue against the interpretation that the excerpts represent contraditions among the accounts. That's all the evidence needed to 'prove' that these 'possible anachronisms' are disputed facts, requiring attribution. Like I have said before, you present an excerpt from account A, that's a fact. Present an excerpt from account B, that's also a fact. Put the two excerpts next to each other and you have a comparison, which leads to a conclusion, which is a POV. Or, to put it a third way, if the apologetic response is an 'alternate' opinion, that implies that there is an 'original' opinion. 74s181 00:07, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Out of respect, Bill, I'll leave the sentence on Smith's character in place for the moment. But I'll fight any attempt to create straw men out of that phrase. Unlike the anachronisms, character deficiencies are truly matters of interpretation.--John Foxe 18:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the article to the last edit by 74. Foxe deleted an entire section because it was unsourced. The proper procedure is to add a {{fact}} tag and give people some time to come up with citations. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle) ^(Talk) 19:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It would have been gentlemenly to have restored just that particular paragraph instead of reverting all my changes. In any case, Les is hardly a naif, and if he can document anything in that paragraph, he knows how to do it. I'll be glad to put the tags on it tomorrow if he reverts me again.--John Foxe 20:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

"It would have been gentlemenly to have restored just that particular paragraph instead of reverting all my changes." Wow. The only thing I can think of to say about this is politically incorrect. 74s181 13:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

"...if he reverts me again." Reverts YOU again? Maybe I've missed something, here's how it looks to me.

• You and I had been discussing adding a section for 'response' or 'reaction'. You walked away from the discussion, and Tom Haws suggested I not talk to you.
• I edited in good faith.
• You reverted my edits.
• I restored some but not all of the material you deleted, and edited again in an attempt to satisfy the new objection you stated in your edit comments.
• You reverted my edits.
• Repeat. Again. And. Again. 74s181 01:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The point, John Foxe, is that I am trying to move forward with my edits, while you continue to try to prevent changes to the article that don't agree with your agenda. It's pretty crazy, isn't it? I mean, here I am, a believing LDS, and I'm trying to get more criticism into the article, and there you are, probably a Presbyterian, definitely anti-mormon, and you are risking WP sanctions to keep certain kinds of criticism out of the article. Why is that? Because my agenda is served by exposing the First Vision to the light, alleged warts and all. Your agenda, John Foxe, seems to be to hide certain things in the darkness. Should I spell it out further? 74s181 01:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

You goofed, John Foxe. You called them 'possible' anachronisms. That means that YOU believe they aren't absolute facts, in the sense that 'Mars is a planet'. 74s181 22:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I have revised the intro of the "Reactions" section, including a summary of what I believe are the main theories pertaining to the (non-)event. In the process, I resurrected several quotes that got recently deleted. Since statements about experts pertaining to the event are historical facts, they are perfectly valid. In fact, I believe that stating isolated facts without citing an expert to explain how those facts relate to the article is WP:OR and/or lacking WP:RS. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle) ^(Talk) 09:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Bill, I was looking at your edit and thinking that I would rather have the FV excerpt and the Jensen and Mouw quotes in the body of the article rather than in the footnotes, then I realized that JF had completely deleted all three of them from the article in his last edit, and that I had missed restoring the Jensen / Mouw quotes in my last edit.

Good catch, it'll be interesting to see what he does with this arrangement. 74s181 10:10, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I've tried to rewrite some of material and put it in the "anachronisms" section. Each day it seems that less of what I've done has been reverted, so on that ground alone, I think we really are making progress.--John Foxe 10:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I reverted your change on POV grounds. You replaced a series of citations with your own version of the issue. Once again, it isn't the historical facts in isolation, but rather how others interpret those facts that should be included. Selecting which facts to state is a POV decision.

A good example of this is the old "identical personages" argument that I deleted earlier. Here is the original:

Although in 1838 Joseph Smith said that he had seen the Father and Son in identical human bodies, in 1834, he had taught that "the Father was a personage of spirit" while the Son "was a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man."<ref>Lectures on Faith 5: 2c,d. Lectures on Faith The Lectures on Faith were included in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine & Covenants.</ref>

This argument ignores the very next verse in the Lectures of Faith, which states exactly what the First Vision account states:

[Lec 5:2e] He is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fullness of the Father, or the same fullness with the Father, being begotten of him;

This is a typical anti-mormon technique - to quote out of context and to present an interpretation different than how LDS view the quote. While is is NPOV to interpret Mormon doctrine differently, it is POV to present an interpretation as what Mormons believe. The implication is usually that Mormons don't realize that their own beliefs are contradictory, when in reality many of us understand these "surprise" arguments and dismiss them. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle) ^(Talk) 13:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not as naive as you believe. I've heard that explanation for the LoF problem before but think it merits consideration only as Mormon apologetics. If Smith had had the shattering experience he claimed in 1838, he would have said, "Listen, men, God the Father is not spirit as you've been told since childhood. He has a material body, and I am a witness." But the issues are too hard to explicate for those unacquainted with Mormonism, and like you say, Mormons simply "dismiss them."--John Foxe 22:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

John Foxe, 'reverted' and 'progress' are your interpretation of events. I don't think I have reverted anything you've added to the article. I think that I've only restored material you deleted, and every time I've done this I've edited the restored material to try to address the complaint you voiced when you deleted it. I'm not going to waste my time doing an edit history analysis that everyone would ignore, but I think the 'facts' would show that that the closest I have come to deleting anything you added recently is when I repeatedly moved the critical use of the Jensen quote from the 'believers' section to the criticism or 'anachronisms' section, and I only did that to balance the 'Mouw' quote that you had deleted. 74s181 13:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

And, BTW, why are you ok with the intro you added to the 'anachronisms' section, but you're not ok with the similar intro that I added and you deleted at least three times? 74s181 13:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I was trying to find some sort of compromise wording.--John Foxe 22:04, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Let me give you a hint, then. If you are trying for a compromise, don't start by blowing away an entire section/contribution and then calling it "reworking".

As for apologetics or critics, let me repeat that selecting specific historical facts to insert into an article is POV unless you can document that an expert on the subject has used those same facts to prove a point. I suggest you start adding citations to identify which Anti-Mormon tracts you are getting your "facts"; otherwise, what you are doing is WP:OR. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle) ^(Talk) 22:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I think our attempts at compromise wording get closer each time. But historical facts are historical facts. They need no citation to anyone. They are not anti-Mormon criticism (although, of course, anti-Mormons are free to use them); they are facts. The charge of WP:OR is simply Mormon smokescreen for being caught in an apologetic corner.--John Foxe 11:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

"...our attempts at compromise wording..." Our attempts? With one exception, your contribution to 'compromise wording' has been to revert our contributions back to some past version that you liked, with some kind of bogus complaint. We would then restore the deleted material and attempt to accommodate your complaint. John Foxe, other than a 'tweak' here and there, your primary contribution to compromise wording has been, after multiple such edit / revert cycles to 'permit' someone else's contribution to remain in the article. 74s181 12:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

"...historical facts... need no citation..." Wrong again, you are presenting primary source facts to support a position or claim, this requires a citation from a secondary source: (emphasis added)

...most articles should rely predominantly on secondary sources...An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims... (seeWP:RS#Types_of_source_material and WP:PSTS) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74s181 (talk • contribs) 12:13, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

"...closer each time" There is no question that the article is in constant flux. Some of the changes are a bit different each time, but some things are very consistent, for example, certain quotes keep getting deleted, along with any attempt to present certain alternate POV or neutralize existing POV. 74s181 12:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

"...Mormon smokescreen..." Yes, John Foxe, your unwillingness or inability to understand Wikipedia policies concerning neutral point of view, original research, or what constitutes a good article are a major impediment to the progress of this article. 74s181 12:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Since you've managed to penetrate our evil plot, I've 'come clean' and added the Mormon Smokescreen Cabal to the list of Wikipedia Cabals. 74s181 12:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I was amused. But don't you think that posting something like that violates WP:NPA?--John Foxe 15:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

You may be correct re:WP:NPA, so I broke my normal rule about editing while at work and removed 'John Foxe' as the discoverer of the Cabal. Of course, anyone who looks at the citations will find out who, but 'facts' are 'facts', eh? <g> 74s181 18:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Facts needed

I don't think its profitable or possible to go any further with this article without getting hard citations for the following question (Tom Haws 20:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)):

What do the following individuals and organizations call and say about the boyhood theophany of Joseph Smith?

• LDS Church. Done and obvious. Please provide Hinckley quote link.
• Community of Christ
• The Church of Jesus Christ
• FLDS
• Any Jan Shipps descriptions of interpretations of any groupings of denominations.

TCoJCoLdS - covered in the beliefs section, with links. With 13 million members TCoJCoLdS is 10 times larger than all the other groups put together, so anything that is true about TCoJCoLdS is true about 'most' within the LDS movement. 74s181 02:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

CoC (aka RLDS) - refers to FV as the 'grove experience', covered in the beliefs section, with links. 74s181 02:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The Church of Jesus Christ (aka Bickertonites) - Ok, we have nothing in the article about them, a quick search didn't uncover anything about the FV on their website. With 15,000 members they are larger than Church of Christ (Temple Lot). If we can find a reference that says they DO NOT teach the FV we should state that in the article. 74s181 02:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Restoration Branches - 10,000-15,000 members, they consider themselves a continuation of the RLDS church, so they probably have similar beliefs to CoC regarding the FV. 74s181 02:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

FLDS - Everything I can find about this group focuses on their practice of polygamy, but I remember someone somewhere saying that they also believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to JS, Jr., but they refer to God the Father as 'Adam'. Of course, that doesn't really answer your question. 74s181 02:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Jan Shipps - Not really sure what you're looking for re: groupings. Maybe you're thinking that variations in belief vary along regional lines, i.e., 'prairie saints' believe X and 'Rocky mountain saints' believe Y. Well, the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) HQ is right across the street from Community of Christ HQ, both 'prairie saint' groups, but the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) FV beliefs are much closer to TCoJCoLdS. 74s181 02:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I would think if we could get a tight handle on all this, we might be able to craft an accurate and NPOV intro. Tom Haws 18:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that to the extent that reliable sources are available, the views of these different denominations on the FV should be in the article. But I also think that there are much bigger problems with the article than presenting the views of groups that represent 1/10th of 1% of the believers. 74s181 00:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The question is, what is a fact, not what is "Truth"

I've quoted excerpts from WP policy statements on these talk pages many times, but fear not, I'm not going to do it again today. This time I'm going to use my own words. 74s181 04:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The question is not what is 'Truth'. Wikipedia articles are not supposed to 'prove' anything or draw conclusions, they are not concerned with 'Truth'; higher 'Truth', lower 'Truth' or 'Truth' of any kind. Wikipedia is only concerned with 'facts'. 74s181 04:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

But, what is a fact? Still the wrong question. This isn't the real world, it is Wikipedia, a society / community somewhat apart from the real world. There is a product here, but it is given away for free, there aren't even any commercials. People invest many hours editing without pay, someone comes along and erases their work, and they just accept it and try again. Of course there are some similarities. In both worlds there are those who gleefully violate the law until they see a policeman, then quickly become polite, law-abiding citizens, putting on their best Eddie Haskell face if caught. However, there are many real differences between the way people think and act here, and the way they think and act in the real world, and that includes the terminology they use. 74s181 04:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

What is a fact on Wikipedia? Ah, that is the real question. Neutral Point of View is a fundamental Wikipedia principle, maybe the fundamental principle. A great deal has been written on it, but ultimately, I think it is very simple. 74s181 04:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Everything said in an article on Wikipedia should be a 'fact' in the sense that everyone (except maybe a few POV warriors) agrees that it is true. 74s181 04:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

That's all there is to NPOV. No compromises, negotiation, etc. Just the facts, and if anyone disputes a fact as stated, then it must be reformulated until everyone agrees it is a fact. 74s181 04:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

As I said, my own words. So, how does this work in practice?

Joseph Smith had a clear motive for changing his story in 1838, a period of crisis within the Latter Day Saint Movement.

This may be true, JS, Jr. may have had a motive in the same way that a grieving widow who receives a large life insurance check may have, in the eyes of a policeman, had a 'motive' for killing her husband. The statement above says JS, Jr. had a motive, but it implies far more, it implies that he probably did change his story. In any case, I don't agree with the statement, therefore it is not a 'fact' as far as WP is concerned. However:

Grant Palmer noted that Joseph Smith had a clear motive for changing his story in 1838, a period of crisis within the Latter Day Saint Movement.

I agree with this fact. I still don't believe that JS, Jr. changed his story, but I can agree that Grant Palmer thinks he may have done so. I'm ok with this as long as there is a reference where I can verify that Grant Palmer really said this if I want to do so. 74s181 04:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

So, what about 'anachronisms'? Besides being a word that most people won't understand, the problem is that use of this word states, as fact, that there are anachronisms, or differences between the accounts. Well, clearly the accounts are not word-for-word identical, but most LDS who have studied the accounts believe that while they don't all contain the same details, they do describe the same event without contradiction. Let's look at the phrase currently in the article: 74s181 04:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

A number of possible anachronisms have been detected in Smith's various accounts of the First Vision.

Detected by whom? If there is one expert who has 'detected' all of these 'possible' anachronisms then attribute the statement to that expert. If not, then maybe we can attribute the statement to a group. I'll leave the identification of that group as an exercise for the reader. 74s181 04:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. If the above needs to be said, it can probably be said in a more tactful way in deference to LDS readers who hold the 1838 account canonical. The general tone is perhaps not appropriate for the article. A better approach might be something like, "The various surviving accounts of the event attributed to Smith aren't conclusive as to the dating of the event." Tom Haws 14:57, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Final point. I think I've shown that 'facts' on Wikipedia are not the same thing as 'facts' in the real world. It should be clear that any belief held by a significant group and stated by a citable expert has just as much place on Wikipedia as any other belief, as long as it is stated in a neutral way. So, the statement that only criticisms based on 'anachronisms' can be included in the article is just wrong. Certain editors have insisted that certain criticisms that are allegedly embarrassing to believers must be included. I've never been embarrassed by properly neutralized POV, but I must insist that certain other criticisms that may be embarrassing to certain non-believing editors should also be included. 74s181 04:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Similar 'Good Article' example

I was looking for ways to improve the article that would be less contentious and was wondering about the footnotes. They don't look very good as they are. There seems to be a mixing of styles, also, some are nothing more than a reference, while others are lengthy full quotes, sometimes completely at odds with the referring article text.

I wanted to see how references and footnotes are normally done on WP, so I looked at some good articles. I found Book of Abraham which seems to be similar to the First Vision in several ways.

• It is controversial.
• It is related to JS, Jr. and the LDS movement.
• It is a similar kind of topic, that is, JS, Jr. made certain assertions and wrote certain things for which there is now a considerable amount of critical and apologetic response.
• There are many citations, including references to books, websites, and LDS scriptures.

One big difference is that there is actual physical evidence which has been examined by modern experts. Also, the Book of Abraham is not nearly as central to the JS, Jr. debate as the First Vision, but the BoA article does appear to contain all the criticism that I have heard, and some that I have not.

In fact, the Book of Abraham article contains more scientific evidence against LDS belief than the First Vision article, yet it has a completely different feel to me, an LDS true believer who has studied and taught lessons from and about the Book of Abraham. The article seemed much more open, honest, and fair. Unlike my initial (and present) response to the First Vision article, I didn't feel an urgent need to drop everything else I was doing and start rewriting.

What I actually felt was hope. Hope that it may still be possible for a controversial subject like the First Vision to be presented on Wikipedia, the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, in a manner that is truly neutral and fair, educational, but inoffensive to believers and critics alike

I invite everyone who is editing the First Vision article or thinking about doing so to take a look at the Book of Abraham article. Let's try to have a discussion here about what is different about the Book of Abraham article that makes it a good article, and how we can apply those principles to improve the First Vision article. 74s181 13:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Book of Abraham doesn't read very well to me, regardless of its status. I mean, it's wordy and awkwardly written. First Vision packs a lot more punch in a shorter amount of space considering that its issues are broader. It's not surprising that the BoA article would include more scientific evidence—there's an existing manuscript to examine. I once heard Richard Bushman discuss the BoA and eventually turned my eyes away from his because I was embarrassed for him.--John Foxe 22:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

"Book of Abraham doesn't read very well to me..." Of course it doesn't read well to you, John Foxe. It presents an aspect of the LDS faith in a plausible, NPOV manner, despite containing a great deal of criticism. That doesn't fit your agenda. 74s181 00:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

"...regardless of its status. I mean, it's wordy and awkwardly written." Well, it's a Good Article. That means that it meets the standards of this community. I think this says more about you, John Foxe, than it says about the Book of Abraham article. 74s181 00:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

"First Vision packs a lot more punch in a shorter amount of space..." Yes it does, John Foxe, because it is an anti-mormon tract written in the modern style. Today, the 'rant' of an older style tract would make most people's eyes roll, they wouldn't give it a moment's consideration. However, the First Vision article presents the anti-mormon POV in a scholarly tone. It criticizes without ever explicitly stating a criticism. It keeps certain things hidden in the dark. It is sly, sneaky, and underhanded. It reads like an anti-mormon tract written by Eddie Haskell after he went to graduate school. To use your own word John Foxe, it is 'foxey'. 74s181 00:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I said I had hope. I still do, in spite of the fact that you are unable or unwilling to understand Neutral Point of View, or what makes a good article good.

Your tendency, Les, is to judge the quality of an article largely on the grounds of how well it represents the LDS point of view rather than considering the importance of clarity and style.--John Foxe 15:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The Book of Abraham article contains more 'factual' criticism than the First Vision article ever could. Yes, it also represents the LDS point of view. It represents both POVs in a neutral, balanced, and fair manner, this is one of the reasons why it is a good article. You've expressed an interest in getting First Vision to good article status, what you've said about Book of Abraham doesn't make sense to me in that context. 74s181 01:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks good

As I've said, we get closer on every editing round. If you now add material from apologetic websites to the anachronisms section, that would eliminate any possible question about OR.--John Foxe 15:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that when you "restored" the LMS quote, you included a different quote. I still don't understand what her comments about the visit with Moroni has to do with dating the First Vision. I think the quote would be very appropriate for dating the second vision, but not the first. Please explain. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle) ^(Talk) 17:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

What Lucy Mack Smith said is unimportant if one believes that the First Vision actually occurred c. 1820; but if you believe, as I do, that it was a notion Joseph Smith cobbled together in the 1830s, then the second vision was the first and LMS's comments about a family discussion regarding which denomination was true makes perfect sense because it occurred after the revival of 1824. So does Smith's phrase "Presbyterianism is not true." Lucy and some of Joseph's sibs weren't Presbyterians until after Alvin's death. Think of the oddity of Smith telling his mother in 1820 that Presbyterianism wasn't true, then having her join the Western Presbyterian church c. 1824 but without either of them recalling a religious disagreement. The other possibility is even more difficult to credit, that Lucy was in error and actually joined the church before Alvin died. (The membership records for the crucial years are missing.)--John Foxe 21:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. The first paragraph looks ok. Now, on to the second and third paragraphs. These sentences are the first that stick in my craw as being possibly inaccurate: "by the end of the nineteenth century it had become a foundational element of the faith. Today, most denominations within the movement teach that it was an actual event that marked the beginning of the Latter Day Saint restoration." Tom Haws 19:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

A. "...element of the faith." Which faith? Do we mean the LDS Church? Rocky Mountain flavor? Do we need further information? Tom Haws

B. "...most denominations..." Weasel words again. Which denomination teach this? Is this accurate?

And the third paragraph has this: "XYZ have challenged details." I think this is unnecessarily combative. I would prefer something like "XYZ have offered different views of the event." It's bad to set up an adversarial tone in the article. Let's keep the intro scholarly and sympathetic. Sympathetic to the Bushmans, the Quinns, the John Foxes, and anybody else who is doing better than laughing at the First Vision. If they all are respectful and assuming Smith's good faith, we should give them the same respect. Tom Haws 19:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't write the 2nd paragraph, I don't agree with the POV presented, but I think I understand what is meant. 74s181 12:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

A. 'the faith' means, the LDS movement in general, not a particular denomination, and / or, the faith that God chose JS, Jr. to be His prophet. Either interpretation fits. 74s181 12:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

B. 'most denominations' is a weasel word but I believe it is accurate in this case, all the denominations that I know anything about (TCoJCoLdS, CoC(RLDS), CoC(TL), Restorationists(RLDS) teach that it was an actual event, and that it marked the beginning of the restoration. We've discussed elsewhere that perhaps some groups don't teach the FV at all, there is a section in the article that presents the details of what three of the larger groups believe, I agree it should / could be expanded, especially if anyone can find a reference for any group that says they don't teach the FV. That's pretty important if true. 74s181 12:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

IMHO, the second paragraph goes into detail about one particular criticism that is covered elsewhere in the article. My understanding is that the lead should be a summary of the main points of the article. 74s181 12:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

You see the second paragraph as criticism. I see it as background. I guess other perspectives are needed.  :-) Tom Haws 15:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Emphasis in the lead should be relative to emphasis in the article. I think it is appropriate to say "Interpretations of the event vary among Latter Day Saint denominations" but it is not necessary or appropriate to go into detail about those variations in the lead, otherwise, the lead becomes the entire article. 74s181 12:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly! I strongly agree. Tom Haws 14:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Likewise, I think it is appropriate to say something about those who do not believe, and characterize their objections in a high level way, but it is not necessary or appropriate to go into detail about each objection / criticism. Perhaps if a majority objection could be identified it would be appropriate to say a little more about it. Maybe the 'evolution of emphasis' objection in the 2nd paragraph is the majority objection, in which case it needs more space in the article. 74s181 12:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

"...challenged details...unnecessarily combative". If the people who 'offered' different views of the event approached it that way, that is, "I think it's wonderful that God has spoken to a prophet in modern times but I have a question about XYZ..." then 'offered' would be appropriate. But this is not how most of them approach the topic. Bushman and Quinn are both believers, both sympathetic, they believe that something important happened. John Foxe is not sympathetic, 'laughing' is probably an accurate description of how this group approaches the First Vision, as is 'patronizing', and even sometimes 'screaming'. They reject the First Vision in no uncertain terms. I think 'criticize' is a more accurate word but I can live with 'challenged'. When I first added this paragraph I intentionally structured it to be similar to the opening paragraph. Following is the way the third paragraph was originally written, see |here for the lead as I revised it about a week ago:

Many outside of the Latter Day Saint movement teach that the First Vision was either an exageration or a complete fabrication by Joseph Smith, Jr., citing evidence such as...

I think that 'teach' is more accurate than 'offered', and less combative than 'challenged'. But John Foxe kept reverting it ([1], [2]) until you got involved, Tom Haws. Eventually it reached its present state, which I guess is more or less acceptable to John Foxe. I can live with the third paragraph as it is for now, but I would prefer 'teach'. I'm just afraid to touch it and set off another revert war, it could end up worse than it is. At least the lead as it is now acknowledges that there is a difference of opinion, and identifies the primary POVs, without attempting to assert 'the historical facts prove that the FV is false' as a conclusion. 74s181 12:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The second paragraph is still a problem, it asserts a POV as fact that I and I suspect most LDS disagree with, that is, the POV that the FV didn't 'become' an 'actual event' until later. 74s181 12:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I can support your proposed "teach that" passage. I also support the second paragraph. It is important background for the development of the LDS--the dominant--interpretation, and I don't see in it any intimation of the FV 'becoming' an event--merely its 'becoming' a doctrine, for lack of a better word. The second paragraph helps explain why interpretations vary: there was no standard interpretation in 1844. It reads like COgden to me. ??? Tom Haws 15:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I edited the lead and changed to the 'teach that' verbiage above. 74s181 03:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

...and John Foxe reverted, so I tried again. This time I used his preferred term, 'non-mormons' even though it is offensive to some LDS movement groups. 74s181 13:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

...and John Foxe reverted yet again 90 minutes later, if anyone cares. 74s181 01:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying about the second paragraph, but it still reads like a critical conclusion. I'm ok with it right up to "...Although the vision was not emphasized..." and I am really bothered by "...it had become a foundational element...". That is, I don't think that "was not emphasized" is an undisputed fact. What can we do about this? 74s181 03:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. That's a toughie. Could it be that the way the last sentence clinches the nail is what really sticks in your craw? I am reading everything up to there as possibly acceptable to you. What the last sentence seems to imply is that the FV "became an event". Perhaps if we could remove that implication you would feel better about it? John, do you have a suggestion? Tom Haws 18:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

"Not emphasized", maybe that is as neutral as this can get. However, the First Vision was printed and distributed in England, was also printed in the Nauvoo paper before JS, Jr.'s death. I would feel better if the 'not emphasized' statement was reworded somehow as relative to the Book of Mormon, I think that would be more accurate. 74s181 01:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, "Today...teach...actual event", it was always taught as an actual event, perhaps just not as widely. And what is the explanation for separate antagonistic denominations independently deciding to start teaching the FV 50 years after JS, Jr.'s death?

I've changed "foundational" to "important" on the grounds that earlier doctrines, such as a heightened millenarian world view, were truly foundational, "present at creation." But that the FV wasn't emphasized during say, the first thirty years of the church seems pretty obvious. Certainly it wasn't emphasized before 1840, the first time the story was printed. After Joseph's assassination, many believers, even Lucy Mack Smith and Brigham Young, seem not to know anything about it.--John Foxe 19:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Isn't there a bit of a contradiction between "...had a clear motive for changing his story in 1838..." supposedly to increase his stature as a prophet, and "not emphasized" before 1840? 74s181 01:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Not really. A politician can have a clear motive for changing his story about past behavior, but that doesn't mean that that even his supporters will pick up on the change right away.--John Foxe 10:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but your argument is that he changed his story about past non-behavior. If JS, Jr. changed his story in 1838 to 'increase his stature', that means the story was emphasized before 1840. If it wasn't emphasized, then JS, Jr. wasted his time changing his story. In fact, I think I remember from an old version of the 'changed his story' paragraph that Grant Palmer said JS, Jr's stature did increase as a result of the changed (but mysteriously not emphasized) account of the First Vision. Maybe JS, Jr. used the 'faculty of Abrac' to change lead into gold, eh?<g> 74s181 02:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

But I digress. The point I'm trying to make is that 'not emphasized' is an opinion, a POV. It is a criticism of the FV, that is, if an event of such signficance wasn't emphasized, then it must not have really happened, but this interpretation raises more questions than it answers. Again, this paragraph is a particular criticism. 74s181 02:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The Bottom Line

It appears to me that the article ends unacceptably. It's not appropriate for Wikipedia to appear to close the matter as though concluding that Smith's motives were evil in constructing his 1938 version of the event. I personally am not offended by it, but I just don't think it's appropriate and I don't think it will pass muster with the scores of LDS Church readers who happen by. I'm not sure what's the solution--how to end the article. Tom Haws 15:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Until a week or two ago, the "possible anachronisms" came after the 1838 version of the FV. Les moved them down to the end of the article. If he explained his rationale for the move, I missed it.John Foxe 17:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Would I be out of line to try a reorg of the section? Going so far, for example, as possibly even renaming it? Tom Haws 18:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I would love to see that section called something like "Reactions to the First Vision". -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle) ^(Talk) 19:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The article used to end with the Gordon B. Hinckley quote, positioned in such a way that it radiated an implied stance that TCoJCoLdS was wrong. How? Well, FV is proved to be false, GBH says that TCoJCoLdS stands or falls on the FV, therefore, TCoJCoLdS is false. The article has improved some since then but still has a long way to go. 74s181 03:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, a 'How people have responded' section would be great, that way we have a place to put assertions of opinion, both pro and con. Hmmm, maybe something like this, or perhaps this, or if you don't like that, maybe this, or even this. Another approach would be this, or this. I'm not sure, I might have missed a couple of versions along the way, but bottom line, John Foxe won't allow a 'response' section that groups the belief and disbelief (I don't dare use the 'C' word) sections, we have attempted to address the objections JF has stated in the edit history comments of his reverts and deletions with no success. But, Tom Haws, you're more than welcome to take a shot at it, we've provided some examples of how it might be done and maybe John Foxe won't revert you like he did us.

BTW, I can't remember why I swapped the 'beliefs' and 'criticism' sections but there wsa reason. I'm not going to go wading back thru the talk page history to try to find it. Go ahead and make the change if you want, it doesn't really matter, John Foxe will revert, either now or later, after the 'grownups' leave. 74s181 03:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think moving the Mouw quote to the end of the article has solved this problem, anyone disagree? It's still ending on a critical note, but the statement "And so, I live with the mystery" takes the edge off. 74s181 10:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Attribution, or, IOW, "high-ranking-super-duper-mormon-history-expert-who-doesn't-believe-in-the-First-Vision John Doe wrote..."

I know that we have discussed this in the past, and I know that I said that we should name the person and state their qualifications. 74s181 02:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

However, I've learned a bit since then and I see that there can be a problem with qualification bloat. Look back at how the Grant Palmer quote at the end of the article used to read: 74s181 02:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Grant Palmer, a former paid LDS religious instructor and currently a disfellowshipped member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has noted... 74s181 02:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I edited this a couple days ago and removed all the extra verbiage, leaving 'Grant Palmer has noted..." I remember exactly how this came about, JF and I went back and forth on it several times 'qualifying' this expert. 74s181 02:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Now we have "...emeritus Brigham Young University history professor James B. Allen..." who John Foxe 'traded for' Fawn Brodie. Personally, I think that Fawn Brodie is a more appropriate source for this criticism, a) because she is better known (Fawn Brodie has a WP article, but James B. Allen, emeritus BYU etc. does not), b) Fawn Brodie was the expert originally cited for this criticism, and c) purely personal, John Foxe keeps deleting the Mouw quote.<g> 74s181 12:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand why attributing the criticism to a believer instead of a critic is more attractive to you, John Foxe. But it cuts both ways. If you're going to say "...emeritus Brigham Young University history professor..." then it is only fair to use just as much verbiage when something is attributed to a critic. You've insisted that you don't want to identify critics as critics, we've tried to go along with you on this, but now you're really throwing down the gauntlet. Is this what you want? 74s181 02:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I only described Allen when I found I couldn't link to him. (There's a musician James B. Allen with a Wiki bio.)--John Foxe 10:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

That's fair, but why did you change from Brodie to Allen at all? 74s181 10:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Anachronisms section contains no anachronisms

Within the context of the First Vision article, an anachronism would be a criticism based on an error in temporal sequence, and would be a specific type of the more general 'contradictions' criticism. An example of this would be: 74s181 12:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

...his mother said that he regaled the family with "the most amusing recitals that could be imagined" about "the ancient inhabitants of this continent."

• What makes this an anachronistic criticism is that JS, Jr. is supposedly sharing information from the Book of Mormon before he has translated any of it, therefore, he had to be making it up, therefore, he made up the Book of Mormon. However, this only works if the critic ignores JS, Jr.'s claim that at the time he was 'regaling the family' he was receiving instructions from Moroni, a historian from the Book of Mormon time period. Therefore, no anachronism, no contradiction.
• This criticism is based on events that didn't occur until several years after any possible date for the FV, and so it is anachronistic in its use in the article as historical context of the FV. 74s181 12:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

As I outline the criticisms, please remember that I don't agree with their conclusions, I'm leaving out the qualifiers for clarity. 74s181 12:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

A list of the criticisms currently found in the 'anachronisms' section:

• "...shared his vision with a Methodist minister..." = Lack of corroboration
• "...it had never entered into his heart..." = Contradiction between accounts
• "... indirectly mentioned the vision to his mother..." = Lack of corroboration
• "...may have become involved with at least two Methodist churches..." = Character attack, i.e., contradiction between what JS, Jr. said and what he did.
• "...practicing necromancer..." = Character attack.
• "...had a clear motive for changing his story..." = Character attack.

John Foxe insists that the title "Possible anachronisms in accounts of the First Vision" be used as the introduction to what is actually a more general criticism section that doesn't even contain any anachronistic criticisms. Well, maybe one if you stretch it. 74s181 12:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

John Foxe has resisted every effort to describe this section as criticism, often reverting with bogus comments. He insists that these statements are 'just facts'. He has also resisted every effort to place this section as an alternate POV to the 'beliefs' section, that is, as a subsection of a 'response' or 'reaction' section, often reverting. He insists that these 'historical facts' are not criticism and cannot be equated to 'Mormon apologetics'. 74s181 12:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

At least I agree with the final sentence, Les.--John Foxe 12:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Third paragraph of lede

The earlier wording is shorter, more accurate, and had been worked out over several edits as a compromise. Furthermore, we need to call a spade a spade. There's nothing wrong with the term "Non-Mormon." There is after all a Mormon Historical Association; it's not The Historical Association for Those Interested in the Study of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Smaller Denominations of the Restoration Movement.--John Foxe 12:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

We've discussed this before, the term 'Mormon' is associated primarily with TCoJCoLdS and to a lesser extent, other Rocky Mountain denominations. It is considered offensive by some Prairie saint groups. However, if it will keep you from reverting again I'll change it to 'Non-Mormon'. BTW, you could have made this change yourself instead of reverting the whole paragraph. 74s181 13:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Tom Haws, I should have let you make the change. Are you starting to get the picture? 74s181 13:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I was not only objecting to the euphemistic avoidance of the word "Mormon." I was concerned that the substitution was longer, less accurate, and overrode a compromise paragraph that had been hammered out over several edits. There's hardly a problem with saying that the details of the FV have been challenged by members of LDS churches when even the former assistant historian of the LDS Church says that he can't find any evidence that JS mentioned the FV to anyone (or was persecuted for doing so) for at least a decade.John Foxe 14:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, John Foxe, you hammered until everyone else gave up and you got your way.<g> 74s181 02:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"...challenged by members...can't find any evidence that JS mentioned..." You're mixing arguments here. Details have been challenged, even by members, but this has nothing to do with whether or not the FV was mentioned to anyone before 1830. So, if I find a WP:RS reference that says it was mentioned before 1830 will you give up on this?

Is it okay to agree that it's not the "details of the FV" that are being "challenged" by such folks as the historian, but rather the canonical LDS Church interpretation? Tom Haws 17:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I did some editing. I don't mind being reverted. I'm ok with non-Mormon in this context, thought I agree that something like "non-adherent" might be more accurate and WP:NPOV compliant. Tom Haws 18:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

What you've done is fine, although there's still something odd about announcing that some don't believe the First Vision occurred. Isn't that true of any religious dogma? Would we write, "Some don't believe the Immaculate Conception occurred"?--John Foxe 19:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It didn't quite set well with me either. Perhaps that last sentence can go away? Tom Haws 21:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, since most of the article pushes the "JS, Jr. made it up" conclusion I think it makes sense to state this POV. John Foxe, you mentioned Immaculate Conception which says:

• The doctrine is generally not shared by...
• Protestants reject the doctrine because...
• ...is rejected by most...
• In arguing against this doctrine...
• Protestants argue that...
• A further argument put forward by...
• Some Protestants also teach...

Let's be clear on this. Critics say that the FV never happened, they say that JS, Jr. made it up. Some members, even of TCoJCoLdS, question whether it happened exactly as described in the 1838 / JSH / PoGP account, but belief in JS, Jr. as the prophet God chose to restore His church, and belief that the current prophet also speaks God's word are 'foundational' in TCoJCoLdS. If you truly reject the FV you will probably reject other things as well, and may soon leave the church. If a member starts teaching that the FV didn't really happen they will probably be excommunicated if they are vocal and persistent in their criticism. 74s181 02:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

So, what does this have to do with the lead?

Non-Mormons, and even some who are members of LDS churches, have challenged teachings about Smith's First Vision, citing differences between his accounts and a lack of corroboration by his contemporaries. Some question that the vision was a real event at all.

"Mormons" is not a generic term, there are 250,000 or so "non-Mormons" who believe in the FV, they are members of Community of Christ, Church of Christ (Temple Lot), etc. 74s181 03:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Not all "Non-Mormons" have challenged teachings about the First Vision, most people on earth are non-Mormons, and have never even heard of the First Vision. 74s181 03:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"members" of TCoJCoLdS (Mormons) who "challenge" teachings about the FV won't be "members" for very long. 74s181 02:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Critics "cite differences between accounts and a lack of corroboration", even if members do this they are criticizing, that makes them critics. 74s181

Only critics "question that the vision was a real event at all". 74s181 02:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The treatment of members who are vocally critical of foundational church doctrines like the FV may seem harsh and autocratic to you, John Foxe. Maybe part of the difficulty is that you interpret the LDS movement as if it were a branch of Protestantism, when in many ways LDS are more culturally like Catholicism. That is, a top-down hierarchical structure where the Priest (or Bishop in the LDS church) tells the congregation the way it is, rather than the reverse found in many Protestant churches where the congregation elects a board that tells the pastor the way it is and fires him if he won't go along. 74s181 02:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I know that Quinn still self-identifies as LDS, but if his beliefs are as I've heard them described, I can't imagine why he would want to do so. 74s181 02:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

How about:

Some historians inside and outside of the Latter Day Saint movement have questioned official statements about Smith's First Vision. (BLANK)s teach that Smith exaggerated or even fabricated the event, citing evidence such as differences between his accounts and lack of corroboration by his contemporaries, along with concerns about his character and motivation. 74s181 03:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

(BLANK)s = ? I think 'critics' is the obvious choice, but I'm open to any factually accurate label for those who teach that the FV didn't happen. 74s181 03:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

John Foxe, I'm sure you'll find something to object to here. Please, please, state ALL your objections, don't hold them in reserve to dribble out later. 74s181 03:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

What I'd like is some variation on the theme already provided in the last section: "The only evidence for the First Vision is the testimony of Joseph Smith; and by definition, a description of one's private vision is susceptible to neither proof or disproof by another. Those who do not believe Smith's account have cited historical evidence surrounding his telling of the story, including possible anachronisms in his various accounts as well as a lack of corroboration by contemporaries." Such a statement would avoid "Mormons," "critics," and unprovable aspersions on Smith's character.--John Foxe 09:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, let's examine this sentence by sentence, word by word. 74s181 11:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The only evidence for the First Vision is the testimony of Joseph Smith; and by definition, a description of one's private vision is susceptible to neither proof or disproof by another.

a) This would be more accurate if 'evidence' were qualified in some way. I have evidence that satisfies me, over 200,000 people accept this evidence every year, it is just not evidence of a type that you will accept. This was ok when the statement was in the context of criticism but if you want it in the lead it will have to change. 74s181 11:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

b) Wikipedia is not about proof. Ok in the context of criticism but inappropriate when standing alone in the lead. 74s181 11:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

c) You always want to make things shorter, how about "...one's private vision is not susceptible to proof by (BLANK)", where (BLANK) is a qualifier related to the one I asked for in a). 74s181 11:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Those who do not believe Smith's account have cited historical evidence surrounding his telling of the story, including possible anachronisms in his various accounts as well as a lack of corroboration by contemporaries.

e) The majority of those who do not believe could care less about historical evidence. If they have an opinion about the FV they are more likely to be offended by contradictions with doctrines they have always believed or by "...they were all wrong...their creeds were an abomination in his sight...professors were all corrupt...they teach for doctrines the commandments of men..." than by 'historical facts'.

f) Most who "...do not believe..." and "...have cited historical evidence surrounding his telling of the story..." also cite character issues and quote Biblical scriptures to prove that the FV is false. A few criticize the FV without citing any "historical evidence", but this is rare in modern criticism, they have become too 'foxey' for that. 74s181 11:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

g) I have already shown that few if any of the criticisms in the anachronisms section can be classified as anachronisms, and I've also shown that some of the criticisms in the article are themselves anachronistic. 74s181 11:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

If you wish, I am willing to go thru the entire article and classify each critical statement by type. I think I would find many more character attacks than anachronisms. 74s181 11:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Another attempt at the lead this evening. I didn't qualify the historians, they are 'just' historians. I used 'non-believers' as a euphamism for 'critics', also, used the verb 'teach', that's about as neutral as it gets. Hopefully that will be acceptable to JF. 74s181 02:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Eventually I'll come up with some references on criticsm based on differences in religious beliefs, then we'll have to figure out how to introduce it. 74s181 02:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Beliefs and Questions

How about 'questions' as a euphemism for 'criticism'? Seems pretty neutral. Also, 'beliefs' and 'questions' seem to work well together. 74s181 04:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I restored the 'response' section and reworked it a bit to work with the new beliefs / questions approach. I also restored the Jensen / Mouw quotes and then moved them to the end. I think this should address the concern over the highly negative way the article used to end that Tom Haws and others have expressed. Now the article ends with "It's a mystery". Seems appropriate to me. 74s181 04:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

While it may be true that there is little external evidence to support the First Vision, it is also true that there is little evidence to refute the claim, either. By definition, Mormons believe it happened, while non-Mormons don't. Most of the negative claims I've seen have either questioned Smith's character or interpreted his statements differently than (IMHO) most Mormons interpret them. It isn't that Mormons ignore the differences in the accounts, but rather they don't believe them significant, any more than the different accounts in the Bible of the same events.

I don't know how many of you have read the Church History volumes, but it became clear to me that Smith was fairly paranoid. My favorite example was when he was traveling and claimed that some men were following him. He couldn't see their faces, and they changed horses and clothes several times, but he was sure it was the same people. So it doesn't surprise me that he believed he was persecuted, even if there is no external evidence that this happened.

Also, most of us who have had spiritual experiences are often reluctant to talk about them too much, especially to those who might ridicule them. They are sacred memories that are shared selectively. Also, many of his family had what they believed were visions and revelations, and it is quite possible that he didn't think his was that different or notable. So the fact that Smith didn't discuss them that much isn't a surprise to me, especially if he met with such a negative reaction from his first telling.

Fortunately, we got rid of most of the excerpts from Anti-Mormon tracts, but many of those "anachronisms" were from interpreting Mormon scriptures differently than Mormons do (e.g., the lack of Priesthood, "all churches were wrong", etc.) While it is perfectly fine to interpret Mormon scriptures differently, it is not appropriate to claim that Mormons believe those alternative interpretations.

It is certainly a matter of faith, and when it comes to faith, logic has little to do with anything. There is no logic to God becoming a man, allowing them to kill him, and then coming back to life. And yet there are tons of people who believe just that, even though there is no "proof", there are conflicting accounts of what happened after the resurrection, etc. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle) ^(Talk) 09:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"...fairly paranoid" Sometimes people really are out to get you, they finally managed to get JS, Jr. LDS doctrine says that Satan was and is today highly focused on defeating JS, Jr. and the church he established. There really is a conspiracy, but most members of it are not even aware, would vehemently deny even the possibility of such a thing or else would insist that the LDS movement is the real Satanic conspiracy. 74s181 12:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Allow me to play Devil's advocate. It is easy for me to understand the critics concern about what Joseph said or did not say about this Vision. I find it difficult that he would ever think this vision was anything similar to the visions or revelations that any other person had. This would have been an extremely rare circumstance when God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him. I would think this had to be earth-shattering. I would suspect that the Smiths, including Joseph, that this expereince was rare indeed: Jesus' baptism (but that was only the voice of the Father proclaiming his Beloved Son), Stephen looking into heaven and seeing Jesus on the right hand side of God, the Father's introduction of Jesus in the Book of Mormon (which Joseph would have been unaware of at the time). Indeed, this was a unique experience.

I can understand keeping something this incredible to one's self, but when we review other visions, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Bernadette of Lourdes, and even Padre Pio to name just a few, these people talked about their visions. They may not have been explicit, but they were clear about who they saw.

The mind of a skeptic will naturally see a number of reasons why Joseph was not clear immediately and why a complete version was not written until 1838. On the other hand, those who believe find just as many reasons to believe. That is the experience of faith. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 10:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought the introductory section to "how it was understood" too filled with unprovable statements. How could one prove that people responded to the FV today as they did at the end of Smith's life? There's no proof that Smith ever talked with a Methodist minister after his vision, etc. So I shortened the passage to make it less Mormon in its point of view.

We need to draw a distinction between "belief" and historical evidence. I'm sure it's quite true that "Mormons ignore the differences in the accounts" and that logic has little to do with faith. What Smith saw in 1820 is forever unknowable. What he said about the experience years later, however, is not. It's therefore all the more incumbent on us to emphasize here the differences in Smith's contradictory accounts.--John Foxe 10:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I've restored some of the verbiage that John Foxe removed, merged in some of his phrasing and attempted to rework the intro to address some of his concerns. 74s181 12:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it is correct to say that the section intro was "filled with unprovable statements". The 1832 account says JS, Jr. "could find none that would believe the hevnly vision". This statement corroborates the general reaction to the FV described in more detail in the 1838 account, but does not corroborate the 'Methodist minister'. However, the 1838 account is evidence, even if there is no other evidence. So, "There's no proof that Smith ever talked with a Methodist minister" is innacurate, it would be more correct to say "There's no evidence other than Smith's account". So I left out the 'Methodist minister', and restored the statement, framing it as one person's response. 74s181 12:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

But Wikipedia is not about proof, it is not even really about evidence. Wikipedia is about presenting all significant points of view.

• That JS, Jr. shared the FV with a Methodist minister shortly after it occured is a POV held by many.
• That JS, Jr. shared the vision with others who rejected it is a POV held by many.
• That the First Vision can be proven false by historical evidence is a POV held by many.
• That the First Vision is one of the most important events in the history of the earth is a POV held by many.
• That the 'historical facts' arguments are more relevant than the 'belief' arguments is a POV held by John Foxe<g>, and also held by many.<g>

However, from the Wikipedia Neutral Point of View perspective, NONE of these POVs is any more or less 'fact' than the others, as long as they all can be verified in a reliable source. Also according to WP:NPOV, the only justification for giving preference to one POV over another is the number of people who believe it, and in case of dispute this also must be verifiable in a reliable source. The only exception to the need for verification in a reliable source is if a particular statement is not disputed. That many reject the FV today for similar reasons as those who rejected it in the past seems like an undisputed fact to me, but if you disagree, add a 'fact' tag and I'll look for a reference. 74s181 12:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not even sure how you would go about proving that people in the early nineteenth century rejected Smith's vision for the same reason as moderns.--John Foxe 12:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, it is easy to 'prove', just quote criticms from that time period and match them up with similar criticisms today. However, to do this would be original research. It doesn't matter whether or not I can 'prove' this, WP:OR says I need to find a current expert who states this POV in a reliable source. That would take longer, but as long as you keep deleting this NPOV I don't have to do any research, all I have to do is restore it. 74s181 14:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

John Foxe, you've got the time zone advantage, I don't have time to edit what you've done and I don't want to revert, but I wanted to make some notes for later editing. 74s181 14:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

• 07:46, 31 August 2007 John Foxe (Talk | contribs) (76,403 bytes) (put quotation in footnote because there is no evidence that this event occurred)

There is as much evidence for the 1838 quote that JF buried in the footnotes as there is for the 1832 quote that he left in the body. 74s181 14:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Not mentioned in his edit comment is that he deleted the entire "Today, people respond..." paragraph. But he did post a comment on the talk page (see above, and my response). 74s181 14:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

• 07:48, 31 August 2007 John Foxe (Talk | contribs) (76,401 bytes) (→How people have responded to the First Vision -added to footnote)

JF moved the ref tag so that more text was moved to the footnotes. 74s181 14:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

• 07:50, 31 August 2007 John Foxe (Talk | contribs) (75,680 bytes) (→Questions about the First Vision - removed Jansen quotation)

Not only did JF remove the critical Jensen quote from the criticism section, he also removed the explanatory preface to the Mouw quote. 14:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

• 07:53, 31 August 2007 John Foxe (Talk | contribs) (76,279 bytes) (→The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -put Jensen quotation in earlier footnote)

JF placed the Jensen quote as a footnote to a Gordon B. Hinckley quote. 74s181 14:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Net effect of these edits: 74s181 14:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

• JF reverted the intro of the 'response' section and did some minor tweaks to the wording afterwards. (added "in his own hand", changed "of the First Vision" to "of its occurrence", changed "wrote that" to "said") 74s181 14:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
• JF deleted the explanatory preface to the 'differences' criticism. 74s181 14:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
• JF moved the critical Jensen quote from the criticism section to a bogus footnote in the beliefs section with no explanation. (Bogus because the statement is by GBH, the only relationship between the GBH quote and the Jensen quote is that they were both presented on the same PBS program. 74s181 14:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I enjoyed learning what I did. I put the Jensen quote in the footnotes with GBH because they both represent the LDS Church. And my reason was not ideological but stylistic. I think Jensen's quote is impenetrable to most non-Mormons—they just wouldn't understand what he was talking about. In any case, rarely does anybody read block quotes. The Mouw quote is better, but as you say, it probably needs a sentence of preparation.--John Foxe 20:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I restored the deleted "Today, people respond" and "Some believe" sentences, but joined them into one sentence with a semicolon. I believe the result is a fully neutralized, undisputed fact: 74s181 00:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Today, people respond to the First Vision much as they did in Smith's time; some believe, many do not.

That is, today some people believe and some do not, just like they did in JS, Jr's time. Pretty hard to argue with. Also moved the 1838 account quote back to the body, but retained JF's edits, and made a couple minor changes of my own. 74s181 00:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I also restored the Jensen quote from the footnotes to the 'Questions' section, and the intro to the 'differences' paragraph. I also removed what I hope is the 'impenetrable' part of the Jensen quote, we'll see what JF does with this. 74s181 01:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Historical facts versus Mormon apologetics

If historical facts are to be challenged by Mormon apologetics, i.e. Jeff Lindsay, then these comments need to be labeled as apologetics.

People don't react to the First Vision today as they did in Joseph Smith's day because almost no one had heard of it in Smith's day; and those who did clearly didn't think it was very important. Smith's story about his discussion with the minister and his claim that he was persecuted for telling the FV story, has no independent documentation.--John Foxe 20:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)