Talk:Falun Gong

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Is this a joke?

I'm not going to edit anything. But I have to say something. How many active editors here can read Chinese? I mean, there's a bunch of editors from Europe and North America who can't even read basic Chinese. Didn't you know that Falun Gong advocators empolys two completely different propagandizing strategies? They knew lots of Chinese people are illiterate/ignorant, and the desperation when facing crises(cancer, for instance), so they advertised the Gong like it's the Cure and Solution of Everything(while in fact it's 42). But they also knew that on the other side of the planet, there are lots of so-called humanitarians, so they act like innocent humble people and keep those ridiculous stories to the Chinese world. As a diehard Atheist, I don't really care if these Wheelers will die in vain should they refuse proper treatments. But it's disturbing or at least annoying to see these liars are getting so much attention and sympathy. And these Wheelers annoyed me at the Chinese New Year Parade, they brought political bullsh**t to a festival of joy. Even Scientology is better than this, at least it's funny to read the Xenu story. With people this stupid, I guess humanity was doomed from the beginning. 154.5.61.233 (talk) 12:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly what I am trying to say here, Falun Gong, in China, is the universal solution to everything, Falun Gong can cure cancer, can fix a photocopier, can act as an antivirus software, can do whatever you want! This is why Falun Gong is banned in China!

Some innocent western people are just fooled by Li Hong Zhi, quite pity. And thank you 154.5.61.233 now I know how to translate "Lun Zi' into English, yes "Wheelers" is better than "Wheels".Zixingche (talk) 19:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

How is all this relevant for an encyclopedia? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 21:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

This is the fact, and I think facts somehow relevant to an encyclopedia. Zixingche (talk) 22:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:POV that is not even sourced according to WP:RS & WP:V can hardly be called a fact :) --HappyInGeneral (talk) 22:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

latest edit in introduction, explanation

Hello. Firstly, I wanted to write something first rather than revert that. Secondly, that isn't a neutral description at all, and it isn't referenced either. So it's basically quite safe for me to remove it. I had not wanted to remove it without making a post explaining why. If you check the third party page there is some discussion of Falun Gong and the Anticult movement which you may find illuminating. If there are any more issues with the removed paragraph we can talk about them here. Better to discuss changes with the other editors, too, and build consensus. --Asdfg12345 15:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to mention. I clicked "restore this version" (twinkle button), and the box came up. I wanted to cancel it and then type something here, then revert. But when I clicked cancel, the revert went ahead with no explanation. Most of the time I write an explanation if reverting is necessary. This time it was a mistake. The explanation is here anyway, sorry, thanks.--Asdfg12345 15:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I think what I wrote was neutral and common knowledge, thus not needing references. Anyone else care to voice an opinion? I'll wait a few days before I reinstate the text. I think the article is much more useful if it mentions that the organisation is controversial. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 19:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Falun Gong IS controvesial. I don't see how it can be controversial or NPOV to point that out. I mean, just look at this very topic, this very action - it was so controversial to even mention that Falun Gong itself, is controversial, that it had to be immediately deleted and criticized for not being NPOV. Now hand over those references to "discussions of Falun Gong and the Anticult movement", or stand guilty of the very error you imply in others. PerEdman (talk)

Falun Gong is indeed a cult, Falun Gong itself advertised forbearance, however Falun Gong does not allow any other people to criticize it. Any criticize towards Falun Gong will be considered evil and supporting CCP, what the heck. Not to mentioned that Falun Gong also believed in alien controlling human minds, just like scientology. Li himself has stated before that every computer user is controlled by alien, only prtaiciting Falun Gong will get rip of the alien. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.174.156 (talk) 21:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

( http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview1.html ) Times interviewed Li in 1999, this is the article about the alien invitation and mind controlling things, well, seems we are all controlled by alien now, so sad... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.174.156 (talk) 22:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

"Falun Gong is controversial" is a vague statement, nor is it neutral, and it itself is a controversial statement. It's not sourced either. Putting that in the introduction will throw things off balance, because there are other sources which say that Falun Gong is not controversial, and that people saying Falun Gong is controversial only happened because of the widespread vilification of the group by the Chinese Communist Party. There are high quality reliable sources which present this view, and then that should also go in the introduction. But the introduction should be concise, anyway, so that's why I removed the original paragraph.--Asdfg12345 22:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Just my two cents: perhaps all editors are not completely familiar with the Wikipedia cornerstones of No original research, Neutral point of view, and most importantly of all (in this case), Verifiability. Unless you state who says what, and your sources are consistent with the Wikipedia standards, there's no problem, in my view. But it would require extensive and convincing arguments, as well as extremely high-quality sources, to expand the introduction beyond its current limits. Falun Gong is controversial for several reasons, and nobody's trying to hide that. Indeed, many of us have devoted a significant amount of time over the years to dig up, for instance, peer-reviewed journal articles to cast light on the stunning complexity of these controversies. And because we wish to maintain a high standard, anything will be removed as long as it's not properly referenced and attributed. That is a basic, guaranteed right of all Wikipedia editors. Please read through the Wikipedia: Policies and guidelines.✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 22:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

In practice, Wikipedia relies almost entirely on unreferenced common knowledge. Not mentioning that Falun Gong is controversial would be like discussing George W. Bush's foreign policy without mentioning the controversy over the second Iraq war. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 09:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you Mrund. Asdfg1235, please, stop deleting information that is anti-falungong, Wikipedia is not Epochtimes, readers have to know both sides of the stroy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.174.156 (talk) 10:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Owing to a long history of mediation, arbitration and profound disagreements, we insist upon strict methodological stringency on these articles, not some obscurantist, unreferenced "common knowledge". Gentlemen, you are welcome to contribute, but I plead you to do so in a rigorous and transparent fashion. The same policies and guidelines are consistent throughout Wikipedia. Substandard content in another article is no excuse for lackadaisical editing elsewhere.

Indeed, I've always wondered why so-called "skeptics" turn completely unscientific and emotional when they encounter perceived "heresy", "quackery", or "blind belief". Instead of relying on true academic research on the complex nature of such phenomena, they straightforwardly ignore its existence and start howling the battle cry of partisan secularism: Écrasez l'infâme! They even willingly use words like "cult" to describe Falun Gong, strengthening the discourse of marginalization and alienation that aims at defining a great number of people as irrational non-persons, stripping them of their individuality and rationality, thereby indirectly giving kudos to the present means of extreme repression and subordination.

But Falun Gong is not managed or organized like a 'cult'. That is not an opinion: it is a fact, and it's supported by plausible research. If religious or metaphysical dissidence is denoted as 'cultic', the label becomes nothing but a marker of a paradigmatic boundary between an in-group and an out-group. By postulating a similarity between Falun Gong and Scientology, Raëlianism, or other such organizations, we are operating within an agenda of guilt by perceived association. In this agenda, the cultic elements of, for instance, Scientology, are magically transferred into a completely different phenomenon, which is Falun Gong, and they melt together as one grey, amorphous mass of suspicious, cultic, potentially dangerous, manipulative pyramid organizations - which, of course, has nothing to do with the serious research on Falun Gong by several anthropologists, sociologists and East Asian scholars. Regrettably, a myriad of people are not aware of what constitutes good research in cultural studies and related disciplines, and what is basically nothing but a rant in defense of the author's own biases and prejudices.

Here we mostly focus on a careful scrutiny of the editors' contributions and evaluate them against the official policies. I wrote the above to introduce some of my own views on these matters, and I am ready to continue discussion, but we shouldn't stray too far from the actual purpose of this talk page. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 15:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you now in agreement, Olaf Stephanos, that Falun Gong is indeed controversial, which is what was originally stated. If you are, then what is it you are really accusing "so-called 'skeptics'" of, as being controversial was the statment in question, not whether or not it is a "cult", which was not brought up until 203.173.174.156 and is not the statement in question in this discussion. PerEdman (talk) 18:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Please have a look at my first post under this header: "Falun Gong is controversial for several reasons, and nobody's trying to hide that. Indeed, many of us have devoted a significant amount of time over the years to dig up, for instance, peer-reviewed journal articles to cast light on the stunning complexity of these controversies." The disputed edit by Mrund reads as follows, and I intended to comment on that: "Falun Gong is a controversial movement. Persecuted by the Chinese government, it is seen by many as an innocent religious movement suffering repression at the hands of an authoritarian regime. Others compare Falun Gong to Scientology and Raelianism and describe it as a manipulative obscurantist cult. The issue is clouded by the fact that anyone who criticises the movement is immediately accused of supporting the Chinese government." Unless attributed to a valid source, this is just another editor's opinion, and Wikipedia is not supposed to be a scrapbook of such opinions; it is a tertiary source referring to transparent third-party research and other significant publications. See Wikipedia:Sources for more information. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 19:07, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's an example, after nytimes published this article [1], which contains negative comments towards Falun Gong and its so called Chinese New Year gala, minghui.org responded "How The New York Times' Article Was Used By the Chinese Communist Regime" [2], in the minghui articles, nytimes is as evil as CCP, and later on minghui published a few other articles, attacking nytimes [3] [4] [5]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.174.156 (talk) 20:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not Ouyang Fei, who wrote the Minghui article in question, and I don't think the CCP was behind the New York Times review. In my opinion, it was bad journalism, that's all. Besides, Minghui is a forum of individual practitioners' discussion, not some official mouthpiece of "the Falun Gong" - such things don't exist, because nobody can really speak on the behalf of everyone else. But this has nothing to do with the standards and policies we're discussing here. Let's stick to the topic. By the way, you're supposed to sign your comments. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 20:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Well then I think the guardian [6] and the telegraph [7] are all bad journalism too. And anything that is against Falun Gong is bad journalism . BTW, since when minghui is a forum?

I have read all of those articles, and I do think they seriously misrepresent the Shen Yun Chinese Spectacular and Falun Gong as a result of the journalists' personal disdain. The show is extremely high-quality and has been praised by both ethnic Chinese and other audiences worldwide. According to several surveys with a large sample of audience members, more than 96 % have rated the show as either 'excellent' or 'good' (about 75-80 % as 'excellent'). Hundreds of thousands of people have already seen it. And Minghui has been a pre-moderated forum since the beginning. Again, you did not sign your comment, and this is completely off-topic, so I won't continue the discussion here. You can reply on my talk page if you have something to add. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 21:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Just like what you say above, unless attributed to a valid source, several surveys results are invalid. Can you show me where to find these surveys results. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.174.156 (talk) 22:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, it seems we are all in agreement that Falun Gong is a controversial movement, that this is an interesting fact that should be reflected in the Wikipedia article, and that even a controversial movement can produce a fine stage show. (This latter fact is not of great importance IMHO). I have suggested that we include the following paragraph efter "more than 80 countries".

"Falun Gong is a controversial movement. Persecuted by the Chinese government, it is seen by many as an innocent religious movement suffering repression at the hands of an authoritarian regime. Others compare Falun Gong to Scientology and Raelianism and describe it as a manipulative obscurantist cult. The issue is clouded by the fact that anyone who criticises the movement is immediately accused of supporting the Chinese government."

Any suggestions as to how this contribution could be made more useful to Wikipedia users? Martin Rundkvist (talk) 09:42, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The controversy is presented already from so many angles, what are sources owned or affiliated to Falun Gong say, what are sources owned or affiliated to CCP say, what are third party sources say, however there is no notable mention in comparing Falun Gong to Scientology and/or to Raelianism as far as I know. So I don't really see any grounds on which this should be inserted to the article. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 12:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I would prefer it if the anonymous "others" are replaced by at least one source, which doesn't even have to be reputable. Someone needs to say it or it's a typical weasel case. However, as soon as that is done, the similarities to Raelians and Scientologists is obvious - they all appear to be cults to someone and they all claim otherwise. PerEdman (talk) 13:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

If you can find reliable sources, these ideas might be developed in the Third Party section, with the anticult movement material. --Asdfg12345 12:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Just a little note a bit off the topic, for Martin. I don't know how you got this idea of Falun Gong. I've read nearly everything available, from sensationalist newspaper articles to considered academic journals. I've never found anything comparing Falun Gong to Scientology or Raelianism. There are also no high level academics supporting the theory that Falun Gong is a cult, or a "manipulative obscuratanist" one, at that. This comes from either the CCP or from people like Patsy Rahn, a failed soap actress who went back to school and wrote a few papers as an undergrad, or others, like Rick Ross, with no academic currency. There is also no evidence for comparing Falun Gong to these groups, and no evidence that it is a "manipulative obscuritanist cult." Even those that say these things never produce or cite evidence. Real scholars and high-quality sources don't do these sensationalist, maligning characterisations, they do not appeal to stereotypes, they do not make vague claims, they do not try to elevate differences. Correctly exploring this kind of topic involves building bridges, explaining things, and overall taking a considered, intelligent approach. It is about actually getting to the issues and making them clear, not obscuring them. I don't think a paragraph like that would help readers too much, especially in the intro. Throwing in sensationalist terms and characterisations will create confusion when they cannot substantiated or explored. Not to mention that so far there are no sources. I think to understand the topic with some depth, readers need more considered, clearer, and substantiated material. Just my 2 bob.--Asdfg12345 13:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The correct procedures are rather inambiguous: you find a reliable and valid source, evaluate its relative significance (majority/minority viewpoint), quote it without any semantic alteration (no original research, i.e. the source can't be used for the editor's own analysis), and add a footnote. I thought that I expressed this very clearly in my earlier messages, and I wonder how many more times we have to reiterate it. There are way too many Wikipedia editors who never care to Read The Friendly Manual. User:Tomananda and User:Samuel Luo were terminated for eternity because of that cardinal sin. (Of course, they used to come around every fortnight, wearing creepy sockpuppets all over their hairy hands, but that's another story...) ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 16:33, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

You can say that there is not references to support this sentence, "Others compare Falun Gong to Scientology and Raelianism and describe it as a manipulative obscurantist cult.", if you try google "Falun Scientology" you will find lots of articles about the similarities of Falun Gong and Scientology, but I understand that we can not just references that. But this statement "The issue is clouded by the fact that anyone who criticises the movement is immediately accused of supporting the Chinese government." is completely correct, with references I provided above (Minghui vs Nytimes) and other examples, in fact, the discussions happening here in this page, is another perfect evidence to support the statement.

Maybe you still don't understand the essentials of what Wikipedia is all about. First of all: Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:No original research. Then, in no particular order: Wikipedia:Citing sources, Wikipedia:Attribution, Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/FAQ, Wikipedia:Criticism, Wikipedia:Tendentious editing. There are more, for sure, but I kindly ask you to read through at least these policies and guidelines, apprehend their meaning, and then come back to discuss. And please learn to sign your posts. You do that by adding four tilde marks (~) in the end of your comment. In addition, consider creating an user account if you seriously plan to contribute. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 21:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reading you provided, I already read them. I am a wikipedia newbie, and I never edited any page related to Falun Gong, not to mention that nearly all of these pages are protected, even if they are not, i still will not edit them, because i know that i am a wikipedia newbie, and my english is not good enough to contribute in a professional level. My reason here provide other editors with information from the other side, because I am a native Chinese speaker, I know a lot more about Falun Gong, and I know how much we ordinary Chinese hated Falun Gong. I believed information I provided are good enough to be referenced in wikipedia, like news from nytimes. And thanks for your suggestion, I registered an account, my account name is zixingche, which means bicycle in chinese pinyin. Zixingche (talk) 22:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Asdfg and Olaf, please just be honest: you aren't at all concerned about Wikipedia's general standards here, just about protecting Falun Gong's reputation. There is no research proving that Britney Spears is a pop singer, yet you wouldn't hesitate to allow the Wikipedia article about her to make that statement. Now, a lot of people think Falun Gong is a cult and see great similarities to Scientology, and others don't. That's what the controversy is about, and that's what needs to be in the introduction to this encyclopedia article, which is currently heavily biased in FG's favour and thus pretty useless. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 21:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you Martin. And by the way, can we have a section in the Falun Gong Page, listing all diseases that Falun Gong claimed it can cure, and all other magics that Falun Gong claimed? So far there is articles about Falun Gong can cure cancer, can fix a fax machine and can act as an antivirus software for computer. All these articles are in Minghui.org, verifiable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.174.156 (talk) 22:07, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I am most concerned about Wikipedia's general standards, because they protect these (and other articles) against people who do not want to play fair. There's already quite a lot of material from writers who have labeled Falun Gong as a 'cult' (see the section on third-party views), and their arguments are referenced, attributed, and, in most cases, countered with other sources that comply with the Wikipedia standards. WP:Verifiability says in a nutshell, and I'm quoting directly: "Material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source." And not only a source, but a reliable, published source. There are definitions for what that means. And there are policies and guidelines for structuring and organizing a Wikipedia article, for writing a lead section, for evaluating and ranking various sources, and so on. You may think something "needs to be in the introduction to this encyclopedia article", but others don't, and they question the transparency and attribution of your claims. Besides, you did not even bother to comment on my elaborate analysis on the 'cultic' discourse. Now, that's not important in itself, and we can certainly stick to discussion on the minimum standards of editing, but somehow I feel you don't really (want to) get my point. You can dig through the Falun Gong arbitration case that was a moment of truth for all of us who've been around for several years. (Keep in mind that Samuel Luo's sockpuppets hadn't been recognized at the time.) This topic is not only controversial, it is also a powerful troll magnet. Trial and error have proven that our only option is strict legalism and methodological stringency. We either play by these rules or don't edit Falun Gong related articles at all. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 22:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Someone suggested that we needn't compare FG specifically to any particular cults. How about this then: "Falun Gong is a controversial movement. Persecuted by the Chinese government, it is seen by many as an benevolent spiritual movement suffering repression at the hands of an authoritarian regime. Others describe Falun Gong as a manipulative obscurantist cult of a kind common in the West. The issue is clouded by the fact that anyone who criticises the movement is immediately accused of supporting the Chinese government." Martin Rundkvist (talk) 08:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I just can't believe what I'm seeing, Martin. You keep offering practically the same text over and over again, without any kind of attribution to any valid source - or any source, for that matter. Who are these others describing? Who is immediately accusing? What research do you base these allegations on? Again, Wikipedia is not a scrapbook of editors' opinions. It is a tertiary source. You're operating on a highly abstract level, never telling us who says what and where. It seems as if you deliberately disregarded everything I wrote, since I don't want to think that you lack the mental capacity to understand it. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 11:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point quite well, Olaf. I am simply challenging it. Falun Gong's controversial status is common knowledge of a kind not subject to research, comparable to the fact that Britney Spears is a pop singer. Instead of hiding your pro-FG opinions behind a formalistic smoke-screen, please tell us if anything in my suggested addition is factually incorrect. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 12:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Olaf, why is it that you are so concerned with Martins text about what "Others describe" Falung Gong as, when you not only once have complained that "it is seen by many as an benevolent spiritual movement", which is similarily unattributed and occurs only a few words earlier in the very same suggested text. If you request support for such common knowledge as comparisons between Falun Gong and other religius sects, then you should in honesty's name reqest support also for such common knowledge as FG being described as a benevolent spiritualist movement persecuted by an authoritarian regime. And no, since you already critizised such arguments yourself, you cannot simply claim that THAT is common knowledge. PerEdman (talk) 13:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Anything that's challenged in Wikipedia requires a valid source. I'm not hiding the fact that I'm pro-FLG -- why, I've been practicing it for over six years, I think it's a very effective cultivation practice, and I am quite familiar with most of the academic research on the subject. Nevertheless, I strive to be fair towards all editors. I have repeatedly removed or edited pro-FLG material that contains weasel words or unreferenced claims. What I'm saying is this: if somebody would actually challenge the statement "Britney Spears is a pop singer", it would certainly require an outside source. We all know that the statement is true. But questions relating to Falun Gong's controversiality are a lot more complicated, and a great deal of academic research has argued that the 'cultic' and 'manipulative' labels imposed by some people are nothing but unscientific, biased, vilifying opinions, not facts, and therefore they have nothing to do with "common knowledge". Now, we can mention the names of people who hold such opinions, and we can state what they have said. That's because "[t]he threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." [8] You still don't seem to have grasped what that means. If I challenge your edit and you don't provide a valid source, the edit can be reverted without further ado. For further reading, check out Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words, and then have another look at the addition you've proposed. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 15:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Very well, I challenge that "it is seen by many as an benevolent spiritual movement". And as you allude to verifiability, I challenge you to verify that it is a benevolent spiritual movement. Until you do, all references to such statements should be stricken as being weaselly. Or we can say that certain things - both pros and cons - are in common knowledge, meet half way and have a consensus on our hands. I know which I would prefer. Which would you like?

And please, the time for quoting wikipedia guidelines is long since past. I may be a new en user, but I'm a long-time Wikipedia contributor. Looking at the arguments that have been put forth so far, I would say all users including yourself are well aware of the guidelines and your allusions to them stand out mostly as attempts at argument to authority. PerEdman (talk) 12:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've put something in (with references) that I hope everyone will agree is fair. I'm watching the article. Let's not make an edit war of this. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 17:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Your contribution does not qualify. Let's have a look: "Falun Gong is a controversial organisation". I wasn't able to find the words "controversial organisation" anywhere in the article. You made an obscure statement, even claiming as a fact that Falun Gong is an "organisation", even though there are valid sources that state the opposite. "Persecuted by the Chinese government, it is seen by many as a benevolent spiritual movement suffering repression at the hands of an authoritarian regime. Others describe Falun Gong as a manipulative obscurantist cult of a kind common in the West." Who are the many that see it as a "benevolent spiritual movement"? What about the "others"? James Randi's personal website is not a valid source for Wikipedia: "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable." [9] (See also: Wikipedia:Sources#Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves) And lastly, "The issue is clouded by the fact that anyone who criticises the movement is usually soon accused of supporting the Chinese government." Who is criticising and where? Saying that "Falun Gong is criticising" is like saying "science has proven". Nothing but abstractions. Which scientist has "proven" and where? Which practitioner of Falun Gong has "criticised" and where? Besides, the words "clouded by the fact" are only meant to suggest and insinuate. Read again: Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. We insist upon precision, attribution, and transparency. No passive voice or bandwagon fallacies. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 17:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

*sigh* Please just act like a grownup, Olaf, OK? I suggest you go and insert some useful material into some other article instead of sabotaging my attempts to improve this one. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 19:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Wait, you honestly don't know of James Randi and the James Randi Foundation, Olaf? It's not just a personal webpage, and it cannot be discredited as such. It's a well-known skeptic organization that for example issue the one-million dollar prize for anyone who can prove a supernatural ability. To add insult to injury, you apparently do not believe science can prove anything. I suppose there is simply nothing left to say that will satisfy you. Further attempts at sabotaging the subject from your part will be met as such. PerEdman (talk) 12:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

"Act like a grownup"? Have I ever resorted to ad hominem against you? This article is never going to become featured if people keep adding blatantly substandard content. Now, I know there's a lot of room for improvement, and the articles are still very much incomplete, but all those who wish to contribute seriously to this goal will have to abide by the Wikipedia policies. That applies equally to pro-FLG editors, anti-FLG editors, undecided editors, and all those who didn't raise their hand by now. I, for one, haven't been involved with these pages for many months, but I'm intending to tap on the very large collection of articles I've acquired from different journals and other significant publications.

Because I've familiarized myself very well with the Falun Gong issue, and I know hundreds of people who practice it, I will not yield any definitional power to people who believe they know some "facts" but cannot back up their claims by referring to genuine research. But maybe that's because the serious researchers have rather consistently argued that Falun Gong is not "racist", "cultic", "manipulative" or "exploitative" like the CCP, or partisans of other ideologies, have opined. This is not the venue to counter these claims, but let me give you some examples. By virtue of personal contacts, I happen to know that mixed-race marriages (mostly between ethnic Chinese and Caucasians) are more common among Falun Gong practitioners than the general population. Secondly, I've practiced Falun Gong for six years; I've never joined anything, and I am not a member of any "organization". Thirdly, the vilification of Falun Gong by the CCP is revisionist history: in actuality, the Chinese government was highly supportive of the practice before 1997 or 1998, and it even invited Li Hongzhi to lecture in Chinese embassies. Fourthly, qigong in its modernized forms has been around for decades, and its supernatural elements have been widely researched and discussed in the Chinese scientific community. You can find certain references in the main article, under "Theoretical background". Falun Gong is not an isolated phenomenon, and any descriptive research on it requires extensive cultural and historical contextualization. Fifthly, people practice and stay committed to Falun Gong because it works better than its alternatives. Most people who rant against it have never even tried the movements. Sixthly, Falun Gong's critics, especially the amateurs, often rely on blatant misinformation and falsehoods spread by the CCP (even in your blog I saw such a feigned "quote", and I've seen plenty of similar things over the years: "Whoever believes Falun dafa is just a health movement is the most worthless of living beings"). Occasionally they've been pipelined through a third-party medium. Rumours, myths and twisted half-truths tend to stick around. They are often appealing to people who don't want to spend a significant amount of time to understand Falun Gong: ask questions, get to know practitioners, read through the thousands of pages of published lectures, try out the movements, learn the history of qigong both in old China and under the Communist rule, and so forth. Then, even if such a person wouldn't choose to practice Falun Gong, he would start to grasp the profundity and sheer complexity of these questions, and perhaps the understanding of their controversial nature would have been elevated from the level of Reader's Digest. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 20:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Woh, excuse me Olaf, when we are adding something bad about Falun Gong, you insisted reliable references, and now you are talking something good about Falun Gong, can you show us where are the reliable references for these?

1. Chinese government invited Li Hongzhi to lecture in Chinese embassies.
2. Most people who rant against it have never even tried the movements
3. Falun Gong works better than its alternatives
4. mixed-race marriages are more common among Falun Gong practitioners than the general population
5. Falun Gong's critics, especially the amateurs, often rely on blatant misinformation and falsehoods spread by the CCP

And about QiGong, yes practicing QiGong is good for improving your general health, I support that, just like any other activity, you will be better off when practicing some activity, rather than sitting in front of your TV for whole day. But should any QiGong claim that it can cure disease, it will be banned, just like Falun Gong.Zixingche (talk) 21:14, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Why Falun Gong is an evil cult and facts

Falun Gong, is banned by Chinese government, many may think that Falun Gong is such a innocent spiritual group which is just another victim of communist, however, in fact, Falun Gong is a cult, totally a cult, and nothing but a cult.

Falun Gong claims that joining and practicing Falun Gong will cure cancer, and other deadly disease

Falun Gong's official website, minghui.org, posted about 2000 cases in Chinese[10], and around 10 cases in English[11], claims that practicing Falun Gong will cure cancer instantly.

Falun Gong, again, stated that quitting CCP will cure cancer

This page[12], written in English, published in Clearwisdom.net (minghui.org english version), told a beautiful story about a women cured her cancer, just by simply quitting CCP.

Falun Gong, attacks anyone criticize it

For example, nytimes, has been attacked by Falun Gong, after they published this article [13], Falun Gong replied nytimes with these ridiculous articles [14] [15] [16] [17]

Li Hong Zhi, aka Master Li, the founder and cult leader of Falun Gong, said that we are controlled by alien

In this interview with Time [18], Li said that we, computer users, are all controlled by alien, and the only way to get rip of the alien, is to join Falun Gong.

Li, said that he can cloak, fly, and teleport

In the first edition of <Zhuan Fa Lun>, which is the bible to Falun Gong, there is a biography about Li[19], saying that Li can cloak since the age of 8, and other abilities, such as fly, telekinesis and teleport, the first edition of <Zhuan Fa Lun> is published in 1994, at that time Falun Gong is still fully legal in China.

So far, according to minghui, Falun Gong is the ultimate universal solution to universe, life, and everything

Falun Gong can be an antivirus software, and can fix a photocopier[20]. Falun Gong can jump start a car's engine, can put off a fire[21], can save you from a car crash[22], and can protect eggs from broken[23]. Zixingche (talk) 19:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Even if some of those things sound a bit awkward (and they do, even to me), they don't make Falun Gong a 'cult'. At best, you could call it a 'religion' that you don't believe in -- that's alright. I have stated this before, and I will say it once more: Falun Gong is not organized or managed like a 'cult'. The practitioners are a loose, global network of individuals, some more engaged than others. It's all voluntary and free of charge. You could drop out anytime, and nobody would come to cause you trouble, even if they were sad because of your departure. Also, a great deal of practitioners have personally experienced persecution, and I agree that they're very sensitive to negative criticism. That's understandable. Almost nine years have passed since the crackdown, and people still get tortured and killed. I know several people who've been imprisoned in labour camps and seen their scars.

Aliens, flying, teleportation or any of that stuff has no implications whatsoever in practitioners' lives. They're just curious things out there, and their significance in Falun Gong's teachings is very small. If they exist, fine, but so what? Ultimately Falun Gong practice is all about cultivation of virtue. Have a look at the Wikipedia article on qigong: "In some styles of qigong, it is taught that humanity and nature are inseparable, and any belief otherwise is held to be an artificial discrimination based on a limited, two-dimensional view of human life. According to this philosophy, access to higher energy states and the subsequent health benefits said to be provided by these higher states is possible through the principle of cultivating virtue (de or te 德, see Tao Te Ching, chapters 16, 19, 28, 32, 37, and 57). Cultivating virtue could be described as a process by which one comes to realize that one was never separated from the primal, undifferentiated state of being free of artificial discrimination that is the true nature of the universe. Progress toward this goal can be made with the aid of deep relaxation (meditation), and deep relaxation is facilitated by the practice of qigong." Falun Gong merely takes these ideas further. There have been similar things in China for thousands of years, and Chinese history is full of supernaturalism. I'm sorry you have grown up under Communist rule that has completely prostitutized China's real cultural heritage. I practice Falun Gong because of the very tangible benefits it brings. My bad acne was completely cured, including the scars, and I now have a complexion that radiates with health. And that's only the physical side of it. Indeed, a lot of people argue that Chinese medicine could cure cancer, and qigong is an essential part of it. But I won't continue this discussion very much longer. "Article talk pages are provided for discussion of the content of articles and the views of reliable published sources. They should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views." [24] ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 21:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I respect your believe and 'religion', I understand that in your world, Falun Gong is not a cult. However, in my world, I believe if a 'religion' claims that a person after joined and practiced such Gong, can cure cancer, can fix a photocopier, can use the Gong as antivirus software, and the 'religion's master can fly, teleport and cloak, it MUST BE A CULT.Zixingche (talk) 21:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

None of the practitioners I know has tried to fix a photocopier or use Falun Gong as an antivirus software. That sounds pretty funny to me. I agree, there are people who make all kinds of claims, and some of them are exaggerated or misunderstood, but there's something you don't quite understand: hundreds of articles get published on Minghui every week. There is some pre-moderation, but the shared opinions and views don't reflect some official "party line" of Falun Gong. People have their own understandings. Their education levels, cultural backgrounds and personalities are very heterogeneous. Falun Gong is free for anyone to practice, and it is exactly because Falun Gong is not a cult that you see such things happening. There's no "communication strategy", and your questionable words won't be censored by some higher manager -- since there are no managers in Falun Gong to begin with. Practitioners are free to speak and express their own understandings, send articles on Minghui, and maybe someone else will comment on them later on. I've seen several Minghui articles that have criticized something that was written by another practitioner. Honestly, I don't even follow Minghui/Clearwisdom very actively.

I'm probably the only one of us who has met Li Hongzhi. He's a very humble man. I certainly don't worship or kowtow to him -- he wouldn't like that, and I wouldn't do it -- but I have great respect for the practice system he has taught. He's not a "cult leader". In ordinary terms, he's just the highest ranking professional in his own field, which is cultivation practice, xiulian. If his "product" was not working beyond doubt, he really wouldn't have such a huge fan base. And even if supernormal abilities exist, they're not for showing off. Really, who cares? There used to be so many qigong masters in China who boasted with their extraordinary powers, whereas Li Hongzhi has always stated that they're essentially nothing, the only thing that matters is cultivating virtue and assimilating into Zhen-Shan-Ren. That's yet another reason why you can't understand Falun Gong without looking at the larger cultural and historical context. A lot of Zhuan Falun is about debunking the extravagant, irresponsible claims of other qigong masters.

By the way, you cannot "join" Falun Gong. You either practice it or you don't, just like you can go play tennis with your friends without joining any tennis club. This example is not precise, because there are tennis clubs you can join, but there is no way you can become some official "member" of Falun Gong. It's impossible for me to comment on all of your possible misconceptions. I can only say that you, as a native Chinese speaker, have a wonderful opportunity to get acquainted with the original books, and I would recommend you do that. Why don't you read through Zhuan Falun, do one set of exercises from #1 to #5, and then come back to discuss. At least we would be talking about the same thing, right? ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 22:45, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Guess what, I have already read the <Zhuan Fa Lun> in 1997, because my grandmother was used to be a practitioner, and stop saying that anyone can practice Falun Gong, it may be is now, but my grandmother paid money to buy the audio tapes and the <Zhuan Fa Lun> book. After Falun Gong was banned in China in 1999, I read the <Zhuan Fa Lun> again, and I even read the english version of <Zhuan Fa Lun>, I am a very logical person, I will not simply say Falun Gong is a cult by just reading CCP based information, actually not only <Zhuan Fa Lun>, I read minghui / clearwisdom / renminbao / epochestime all the time, and still to me, Falun Gong is a cult.

And, because your suggestion, I downloaded the exercises 1-4 mp3 files in falundafa.org, listened to them and tried to practice the Gong, I found it is just ridiculous, the man speaking in the auidio file, can't even speak mandarin correct. Anyway, I tried, and I found nothing special.

Now, will you, Olaf, start reading and thinking something different, i suggest you read something from Dr. Fang Zhou Zi. But unfortunately Dr. Fang's articles are all in Chinese.

Do you know in fact almost all Chinese hated Falun Gong and called practitioners "Lun Zi", which means "Wheels", I know you probably don't understand Chinese, "Lun Zi" to practitioners is just like nigger to black people. This word is not invented by CCP, but it is invented by us, the people in China, and i think Falun Gong deserved that name!

And, Olaf, I think you probably should learn to read Chinese, because if you can read Chinese, you will find minghui.org Chinese version is NOTHING, nothing but contents about curing cancer and curing deadly disease, oops, i forgot minghui.org Chinese version has a exclusive section called "revenge", this section is full of contents about someone killed / infected with disease / developed cancer / died / paralyzed / whatever because they did something bad to Falun Gong, and punished by a magic force. Here, [25], I have this section translated for you using babel fish, tell me, if Falun Gong is not a cult, why people criticize it got "killed"? Zixingche (talk) 08:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

And referring to "Practitioners are free to speak and express their own understandings, send articles on Minghui.org", if I become a practitioner, do you think I can publish a article about "CCP is very good!" in minghui.org?Zixingche (talk) 09:30, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I repeat that this is better taken elsewhere, but just one remark. Your english is very good, however, it's unclear to me why you translated 報應 as "revenge". This should actually be something like "retribution" or "judgement", shouldn't it? That's even what it's translated to on that page you sent through babel. You want to make Falun Gong look bad, I know, but doing it this way is no good. You just lose credibility. Anyway, don't you believe it: 善有善報惡有惡報？This is just the most basic upright belief of human beings. I know you do not like Falun Gong, but it's really awful that you would support vilifying practitioners and treating them subhuman. They are human as well, just like you. You are boasting that your friends hate Falun Gong and that Chinese people have come up with nasty names for practitioners. This is very sad to hear. Should people be treated this way for their beliefs? Yet you say that no practitioners are killed in the persecution? People should be allowed to believe as they wish and not suffer any consequences. Falun Gong is actually based on upright and kind principles. These issues are just the most basic issues of what it means to be human. You should have some humanity, some compassion, and some tolerance!

Aside from this, there's no need to clog up the talk page further with this nonsense. Keep on topic. If it keeps going on I'm going to start deleting every post not directly related to discussing the page, including my own, Olaf's, yours, or anyone's. I am allowed to do this given the rules of wikipedia and the correct use of talk pages. They are not for you to come here and vilify, belittle, and spread hatred toward Falun Gong or any other group. Thanks.--Asdfg12345 12:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

First, the "revenge" section title is called "恶报", not "报应". Second, the contents inside the section, are just too horrible to be called "报应", I will translate a few here, and you will see why i call this section "revenge"

"河北省沧县王长芳诽谤大法遭恶报"[26], this article says a HeBei muslim resident suddenly died of brain hemorrhage at age of 37, because she tried to stop muslim to practice Falun Gong.

"河南叶县城北关居委会分片长刘聚川遭恶报死亡"[27], this article says a HeNan male, died of esophageal cancer, because he didn't read the "Nine Commentaries of CCP". It even says that "迫害大法遭报应是天谴", means he was killed by "Heaven" because he did something bad to Falun Gong.

"辽宁省辽阳县毁真相资料遭恶报事例"[28], this article has a few stories, one of them saying a villager and his son in LiaoNing crashed while riding motorcycle and died instantly, because he destroyed some "Nine Commentaries on CCP" booklets.

The section contains 99% of articles like these, just using a same template: some one did something bad to Falun Gong, like stop people from practicing / destroy some Anti-CCP booklet / whatever, and got punished by the "Heaven" or whatever, and died in many ways, like cancer or car crash or strike by lightning or whatever. Please, tell me, is it more appropriate to call it "revenge"? Zixingche (talk) 19:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

About the discussion page, what are you trying to hide, Mr Asdfg12345? Every sentences I wrote here are supported either by media or minghui.org itself, and are all directly related to Falun Gong, and now you want to delete all my discussion?

About the name "Lun Zi", tell me what does Falun Gong practitioners call CCP member? heh? CCP member are human too, how can you do that? And how do you call Mr. Jiang Ze Min? heh? Mr. Jiang is a human too, how can you do that.

We called Falun Gong practitioners "Lun Zi", because they affected our normal daily life!

Falun Gong people graffiti our building in China, there is even a article in minghui teach how to graffiti effectively[29].

Falun Gong people damage our bank notes! they print something on the bank note, and it is illegal to print something on the legal tender! they even damage our coins, minghui has a article, teaching people how to "print" on a coin. [30]

I received huge amount of SPAM from Falun Gong everyday, in many ways, such as Email, Skype, QQ, when I was in China I even received SMS spam.

When I go to China Embassy in New Zealand to renew my passport, those Falun Gng people in front of the embassy were protesting and blocking the way!

Somebody manage to put a DVD in my father in law's pocket without his consent, while he was walking in a park in China.

And the most important reason we call practitioners "Lun Zi", is that because Falun Gong KILLS! Falun Gong killed huge amount of people in China, because they believed in Falun Gong and refused to go to the hospital! And not to mention that according to minghui.org, Falun Gong killed another 2000 people in China, because they did something bad to Falun Gong. Zixingche (talk) 20:11, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

That's fantastic. Zixingche is listing factual criticism of Falun Gong in a discussion thread about the controversy over Falun Gong, and you have the balls to claim that it's off-topic nonsense? The gall! What criticism of Falun Gong would YOU say, if you were alone to decide it, on-topic for the Falun Gong talk page? PerEdman (talk) 13:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your support! I really appreciate that! Zixingche (talk) 19:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

• sigh* I didn't want to make an issue of this, maybe I said something wrong. Slag off Falun Gong all you want, it doesn't change anything for me. I don't have to be the one who tries to keep a semblance of order, when it's not worth the trouble I won't do it. Zixingche isn't presenting resources that can be used for the purposes of constructing this article, I hope you recognise that. Minghui can be used to a certain, limited degree, but it's not a reliable source. What's on those pages can be used in some circumstances, but that wouldn't count as criticism. Those links are just from minghui. The criticism is from Zixingche, and it's all inadmissible for wikipedia. He's entitled to his opinions, but these talk pages are for discussing the articles, not for discussing his hatred of this practice.

I only posted this because you may not have realised what I meant, or that what he was saying, and this whole conversation, is off-topic and useless for wikipedia. It may have come out wrong. The intention was simply to make a better environment for editing the pages.--Asdfg12345 13:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Zixingche and Olaf, this discussion would be better taken to one of your talk pages.

Martin, the definitions of Falun Gong given in the introduction should be as simple as possible. The view that Falun Gong is a cult is not academic mainstream, and has been thoroughly debunked by published, reliable research. It's fine that the CCP propagates this view, and that a couple of fringe-academics and "cult-busters" out there also support it. Their views should be duly represented. But they don't even count as reliable sources, and putting that in the introduction as a way of defining the practice is inadequate.

I also see you inserted the same paragraph twice after it was deleted, and failed to respond to the concerns raised by the other editor. I don't think this is productive. These things should be done on consensus, and we are still working through the issues. I don't think it helps to start an edit war, Martin. Half of it is not sourced, one source is unreliable, and the other does not correspond to what it was attributed for. That's no good. On top of that, there are all the other outstanding, wider issues previously raised. --Asdfg12345 01:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Zixingche's and Olaf's discussion on Falung Gong is the best material and concrete discussion we've had since MartinRs original entré and is sorely needed here. As long as you consiously oppose anything that is critical of Falun Gong, there can never be a consensus that is not pro-Falun Gong. Or you can prove me wrong by answering a question:

What statements critical of Falung Gong would you approve of? PerEdman (talk) 13:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Responded to above. But please don't misinterpret me. I don't want to squash criticism. It's just that their whole conversation is their own viewpoints and it's not useful for wikipedia. I suggested they talk about it on their talk pages. Wikipedia pretty much only presents what reliable sources say about a topic. Olaf posted links to the core wikipedia policies, it would be a good idea to read them, to get a context for why I would say it is off-topic and doesn't belong here. --Asdfg12345 13:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty stubborn. I'm going to continue inserting varying versions of a paragraph mentioning the criticism of Falun Gong until it sticks. Therefore, Olaf, Asdfg and any of your buddies who might show up, what you need to do is improve my text, not delete it. Make it better. Because it won't go away. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 14:58, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The Time Magazine article is a valid source, but it doesn't call Falun Gong an "organization". Yes, this work does require extreme precision, even on the level of individual words. I left the reference, organized the introduction in chronological order (the article was published in 2001), and summarized the conclusion of the article with a direct quote. However, the James Randi website is clearly a personal website. You should be warned that people have been banned from editing this article by referencing to personal websites, including James Randi's, and if you keep adding such links, administrators will certainly have a look at your edits upon request.

In addition, the sentence "as may be seen from this very article's discussion page, the issue is clouded by the fact that anyone who criticises the movement is usually soon accused of supporting the Chinese government" is directly in violation of Wikipedia's core policies. It is reflecting a strong bias, it's referring to the article's talk page (which is forbidden), it alleges something that's been challenged by the rest of us, and it's infused with weasel words. You could even call it an insult. If you keep adding similar things, you won't be able to stay here for very long. These articles have been placed on probation by the Wikipedia arbitration committee: "Falun Gong and all closely related articles are placed on article probation. It is expected that the articles will be improved to conform with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and that information contained in them will be supported by verifiable information from reliable sources. The articles may be reviewed on the motion of any arbitrator, or upon acceptance by the Arbitration Committee of a motion made by any user. Users whose editing is disruptive may be banned or their editing restricted as the result of a review." [31]

The Wikipedia policies are non-negotiable, they are expected on all articles and of all editors, and they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another. I understand you are new, but your attitude towards common rules seems quite arrogant. We don't want to cause unnecessary conflicts; it's essential that you learn to edit properly. I advise you to read through all the Wikipedia policies and guidelines that I mentioned earlier in this discussion. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 18:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd welcome some attention from admins in view of all the ridiculous disruption done by blindly pro-FG editors over the past few days. In fact, I've already asked the admins to have a look, and they basically said "You have to work it out among yourselves." Martin Rundkvist (talk) 20:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Martin, why don't you propose some wording here, and I'll play with it. If you don't propose the wording here, I'll do it within 24 hours. It will mention that there are different views on Falun Gong, and give some context to them. It will be about two or three sentences. I think this is manageable. Please don't reinsert what you have been. You are violating wikipedia policies. Referring to the article's talk page, drawing on sources that fail reliability, then declaring your stubbornness on the talk page to keep reinserting it without having responded to any of the arguments—I think this is all quite poor form. You still have not produced any reliable sources, doesn't this bother you? You are also making personal attacks in your comments. What you are currently doing is called tendentious editing. In 24 hours I will produce some wording, or if you leave some here, look again and fiddle or propose something new. This is compromise, please consider doing the same.--Asdfg12345 21:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Disagree, Martin did not attack anyone. Zixingche (talk) 22:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The FG camp has repeatedly removed a reference to the James Randi Educational Foundation's web site on the grounds that it would be a "personal website". This is not true: the JREF is according to Wikipedia "a Fort Lauderdale, Florida non-profit organization founded in 1996". Thus I am reinstating my edit again. This is really tiresome, don't you think? Martin Rundkvist (talk) 22:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Just a quick note: I reverted Martin again, which put me at 3 reverts within 24 hours, so I reverted myself. There is an ongoing discussion here with no consensus, the Randi source fails WP:RS, other proposals have not been responded to, the policy concerns have not been responded to (of which there are many), and having broken WP:3RR by reverting 6 times, Martin is now clearly involved in POV-pushing and tendentious editing.--Asdfg12345 22:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Haha, yeah, that's because I don't have any Falun Gong buddies to share the editing work with. You guys are avoiding the 3RR rule by taking turns undoing my edits. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 23:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)