Talk:Tucker Max

• Previous deletion debate

Archives

---

1. 2005 – November 2006
2. December 2006 – January 2008

POV

I'm not familiar with the subject, but this article is pretty blatantly non-neutral. It has three paragraphs, two of which are 'Controversies' and 'Legal troubles'; whereas it says virtually nothing about the man's actual work, or why he is famous. At the moment, it looks a lot like a Wikipedia:Attack page; I'm going to assume good faith and assume it wasn't created as such, but it needs serious improvement to reach the minimum standard for biographies of living people. If no such improvement is made to the article in the next week or two, I'll probably just reduce it to a stub, and possibly nominate it for deletion. As it is now, this article is simply not acceptable under Wikipedia's policies. Terraxos (talk) 23:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I am the one who keeps posting the Controversies section. I am not posting it as a form of attack, but rather information. The article lists his work as nonfiction. Given the James Frey situation, I believe that a "nonfiction writer" who passes off fiction as fact is notable. I am not posting it as an attack, I am posting it as true information. A lot of the complaints (which have only recently been explained to me) about it not being extensively sourced. There are several cases where his truthfulness is argued, and even proven at times with information about places that are not relevant or insightful criticisms of the veracity of the stories. Many of these sources seem very well researched pools of information, but they are oftentimes put in blog format, etc. As such none of the information from those articles is included in what I add. The one source that is a print publication that pokes several holes in one of his stories. I'm told that this information needs to be "extensively sourced", but all the information is from the one article stating those facts about locations and information about the different bars. Do I need to add a REF tag after each piece of information even if it's to the same page? I have, until this point, assumed the removing of my Controversies section has been by pro-Tucker vandals (or perhaps Tucker himself) but now I'm just not sure what the requirement for this information is. But I must say that I do firmly believe it to be relevant to a complete and comprehensive article about this man. TheArnieC (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The problems are two or threefold.

1) You're quoting the story wrong. The manager of the restaurant manager wasn't even there the night it supposedly happened and the employee that refutes it has only worked there 3 years--after the event is claimed to have taken place. So right there it's a non-starter. Having a source is great, the source just has to make sense.

2) As per the WP: BOLP, we err on the side of caution. Always. That means if we are going to post criticism it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt true, sourced extensively, no original research, no weasel words, etc. For instance, if you wanted to add that he was a drunk driver and you had a news story detailing his arrest for a DUI, that would be fine. But vague things like "his stories might not be true" need to have HARD FACTS behind them or it is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Go ahead and put them on a web forum or whatever--you could be right, who knows?--but they do not fit the set regulations of Wikipedia.

That is why the controversy section counts as vandalism. Posting it over and over again is inappropriate. Not only is it just factually wrong but it violates the standard Wikipedia holds itself to.

TheRegicider (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Article Issues

I haven't contributed much to this article, but I've been watching it for over a year.

The problem this article has is that Tucker Max's anti-fans are so loathingly contemptuous of him that they feel that the article being anything other than an attack page would be unencyclopedic. The recently archived talk page has several examples of editors determined to keep the article as short as possible as an insult to Tucker.

True, the article was at one point overrun with Tucker's fans who wanted to document message board minutae, but that problem went away a long time ago. Now it's just a few people trying to hold the wolves away from the door.

I haven't messed with this article because trying to do anything with it is like stepping into a hornet's nest.

Without an admin to state, and enforce, the unencyclopedic-ness of certain things that the vandals and, for lack of a better term, "haters", insist on contributing, will never be respected. Case in point - a back and forth war over the controversies section caused the article to be protected. And two weeks later, the two sides have't even attempted to initiate a discussion. What little of a discussion there was, was there before the article was protected.

Get an admin in here to sort some things out.

Then compile what needs to be mentioned about Tucker, good and bad. And since things are so argued over that a single change causes 20 edits in the article, hammer out what's going to be included on the talk page before adding it.

As a final comment, I'd like to suggest permanent semi-protection for the article so that randoms can't anonymously vandalize. McJeff (talk) 04:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

fix the link

in the bibliography there is a dead link to 'i hope they serve beer in hell', however, the book does have its own page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.242.198.91 (talk) 01:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Film

It should be announced that Max has a film in pre-production. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.197.70.15 (talk) 20:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

OPIE AND ANTHONY

why did someone remove the reference to tucker's disastrous and controversial appearance on opie and anthony? they basically outed him as a fraud and he was seemingly humiliated, enough to never mention the appearance on his website or message board again. i find it suspicious that this article no longer mentions the situation —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theserialcomma (talk • contribs) 00:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Because there is this thing called WP:BLP, also known as Biographies of Living Persons, stating that defamatory statements must be aggressively removed from the article unless impeccable sourcing can be found. And so far, no one has managed to find any sourcing better than "some guys blog" referring to the event. Therefore, it will not be added unless someone can do it properly, which no one who wants the information included in the article has been willing to do. McJeff (talk) 03:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

would a direct link to a video of the interview be sufficient? it is strange that it is claimed that sources are hard to find, because if one were to simply google "tucker max opie and anthony," the first hit would be a link with HTTP://WWW.FOUNDRYMUSIC.COM/opieanthony/displaymedia.cfm/div/opieanthony/id/11955/media_search/opieanthony/page/download_Tucker_Max_Spins_Yarns_with_Opie_and_Anth ony.html and HTTP://WWW.FOUNDRYMUSIC.COM/opieanthony/displaymedia.cfm/div/opieanthony/id/11956/media_search/opieanthony/page/download_Tucker_Max_and_the_Old_mics_not_working_t rick.html, which are direct links to opie and anthony's official website and the official interview in question. If you watch the official interview on the opie and anthony website, the information posted about the video states "Tucker Max came to the Opie and Anthony show to tell some of his OUTRAGEOUS stories...that most of us think...are bullshit. Thanks to Jon for capturing the gratuitous fabrication on tape, and for going to the store and getting the shovels to dig out of Tucker's bullshit stories." So is directly from the original source good enough? Or is there a better source you were seeking? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theserialcomma (talk • contribs) 01:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

If you want it included, you have to be careful to not include defamatory language. I'm not a Tucker Fan (rather, I quit being one after reading BC Woods version of why he quit contributing to the "Daddy Don't Hit Me" Rudius Media website), but I don't believe that there is reason for this to be an attack piece either. Anti-Tucker resources are plentiful the net over - this should be a neutral piece of information about what Tucker actually is, not what he says about himself or what people with a vested interest in discrediting him say.

There is also a wikipedia policy called "Undue weight", see also WP:UNDUE. It would be inappropriate to make an inordinate issue about Tucker's appearance on Opie and Anthony. Yes, it happened, and it should be mentioned, but that is all.

So the language you would want to use would be something like this. Tucker appeared on the Opie and Anthony show to promote his book "I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell". During the course of the show he was accused of lying and compared to James Frey. There is currently no mention of the incident on tuckermax.com."

As I said, I'm a former fan turned relatively neutral towards Tucker Max and I'd be glad to help make the section meet the guidelines on biographies of living people, but until it does it should not be included in the article. McJeff (talk) 23:08, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

It was highly inappropriate for you to delete the entire 'controversy' section and remove all mention of it. Stop acting in bad faith. Your history of liking or disliking Tucker Max is irrelevant. If you wanted to edit my change to be more fair, you should have done so. You should not have deleted everything. That is vandalism. I am going to add the changes again with more neutral language this time (my previous addition, which you deleted, was from a previous edit, and not my own). Hopefully you will like the new edit and instead of deleting everything, you will contribute to the article. Do not vandalize more articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.224.173 (talk) 04:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I contribute to the article by preventing your inappropriate edits from standing, and I suggest you go learn what vandalism is. McJeff (talk) 12:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

In your own talk page you state "I also believe that deletionism often borderlines on vandalism" and "hardcore deletionism is vandalism." And then you deleted the entire controversy section. Very strange. Instead of deleting everything, which is vandalism by your own definition, you should have modified the questionable passage so that it was more satisfactory, and that way you would be contributing much more than just removing an entire section that you even agree should exist. I ask you to please correct your mistake. I could do it, but you would probably just revert it again and send me another nasty message. Please don't message me anymore and just just fix your mistake. You were off to a good start with your suggestion that sounded less biased. Just add that and we can work from there. The passage I tried to add was supposed to be a starting point, to be edited and revised. Instead you just deleted everything. Not helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theserialcomma (talk • contribs) 18:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Based on the history page, 1) you haven't contributed anything, and 2) the only thing that was contributed was the same old inappropriate BLP-violating paragraph by an anonymous IP, which was justifiably reverted. For starters, if you're going to edit the article, you ought to do so while logged in.

Since you appear to be a new wikipedian, I'm going to assume good faith and point a few things out. First is WP:AGF, it stands for assume good faith, which you ought to be doing. Second is Deletionism on WikiMedia, which if you read it, you'll find it refers to including articles themselves on wikipedia rather than specific sections within articles. Claiming that I am a hypocrite for calling myself an inclusionist while reverting your BLP violation is factually wrong. McJeff (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for asking something irrelevant, but where can I find the 'BC Woods version of why he quit contributing to the "Daddy Don't Hit Me" Rudius Media website'? I want to read it. GeorgeMillo (talk) 20:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

It was in a post on the Freak Safari forum. I'll see if I can find it again. But the basic story is that Tucker tried to force BC into working as a prison guard so he could contribute to Fire on the Line, then stiffed him in ad revenue for the sight, and when BC complained, he fired him. Also dunno if you know but BC has a new site, dunceuponatime.com McJeff (talk) 20:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's the post. McJeff (talk) 21:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

And for the record, I don't believe this can be included in the article unfortunately. According to Wikipedia standards, it can't be "proven" that the BC who made that post is the same BC who wrote for Daddy Dont Hit Me, and it could also be questioned whether BC himself is a reliable source. McJeff (talk) 21:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

(Undent) I have posted a new criticism section on this talk page. Please work with it until it is ready before trying to move it to the main page. Also keep in mind that it must be described as neutrally as possible - be sure not to include weasel words, as that was one of the many problems with the old version. McJeff (talk) 21:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it also all original research? I believe for a BLOP - especially with something as serious as calling the guy a fraud or a unethical boss - it has to come from a reputable news source? Even if we can verify that its BC Woods saying it, we don't really have the fact-checking resources to find out if he can be trusted. For instance, a line like "No mention of it as appear on TuckerMax.com would need to be sourced to an article that makes that assertion, not simply a link to his site. TheRegicider (talk) 21:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that "original research" is the most abused rule on wikipedia - just about anybody can call anything they don't like original research and wikilawyer the hell out of the phrase/statement to keep it out of an article.

As far as the BC Woods quote goes though, it was never included in the criticism section because BC didn't post it in his blog. All he ever said publically was that "he would no longer be working for Rudius Media".

For the thing about no mention of O&A appearing on Tucker's site, here's a source - google.com. [1]. McJeff (talk) 15:46, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Potential rewrite of "criticism" section

Tucker Max has had the truthfulness of his stories questioned. On June 27, 2006, Max made a appearance on The Opie & Anthony Show. After Max was unable to provide proof of two of his stories ("Tucker Tries Butt-Sex" and "The Absinthe Donuts Story"), he was accused of lying and compared to discredited fiction author James Frey. There is currently no mention of the incident anywhere on his website; however, videos of the appearance can be found on youtube[2].

Tucker's general responses to his critics have been to accuse them of not actually reading what he writes or knowing what they're talking about..

Perhaps you could use some of the direct quotes from the writeup on Opie and Anthony's site after Tucker's appearance. They are: "Tucker Max came to the Opie and Anthony show to tell some of his OUTRAGEOUS stories...that most of us think...are bullshit. Thanks to Jon for capturing the gratuitous fabrication on tape, and for going to the store and getting the shovels to dig out of Tucker's bullshit stories." and "In a valiant attempt to put an end to Tucker Max's endless bullshitting, Opie and Anthony pull the old 'hey, the microphone aint working' trick....which works like a charm. Tucker left in tears...almost. Thanks to Jon for the video." The quotes are from foundrymusic.com (Opie and Anthony's media site) in a blurb next to the posted video.

Not a chance that any of those quotes are going in. They called him a liar and compared him to James Frey, and he has chosen to pretend none of it ever happened - that's all that needs to be said. This is an encyclopedic article, not "The Official Debunking of Tucker Max's Established Persona". McJeff (talk) 03:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The 'criticism' section is stupid. If we're going to mention that Max has failed to provide proof for a few of his stories, then why not mention the stories where he has provided proof? (Book tour, having sex with an amputee, the miss vermont story, the tattoo story... to name a few.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeorgeMillo (talk • contribs) 22:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

(undent) You see, this is why the Tucker Max article will never be any good. On one hand you have, for lack of a better word, haters, who so thoroughly loathe Tucker that they want the article turned into a smear/hit piece because, in their warped perception, anything less would be inaccurate. And that's not bad faith, just read the talk page archives and see it for yourself. And on the other hand, you've got fanboys who think Tucker's own sayso is incontrovertible proof of his honesty. And neither side gives a damn about writing a decent article. McJeff (talk) 02:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

there there, big guy. don't get all tangled up in your own righteousness and lose hope for the article. instead, i would please ask for you add the changes that you think are fair, and from there we can work to make the controversy section more NPOV. i liked the changes that you suggested, and you didn't like the ones that i re-added from before, so let's go with what you think is neutral and work from there.

to georgemillo: other biographies have controversy sections. tucker max should be no different in that sense. the fact that he has haters and fanboys is a testament to the fact that he might be controversial, now it's just up to us to cite sources and use NPOV if the controversy is legitimate.Theserialcomma (talk) 06:05, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

My suggestion for a rewritten criticism section:

Several critics have questioned the truthfulness of Max's stories; Jane Skinner of Fox News remarked while interviewing Max: 'My first thought reading [Max's book] was "James Frey in A Million Little Pieces" - there is no way that anybody can have a life this crazy. Is it true?' Max has provided prood for several of his stories, however many stories remain unproven. Notably, when Max appeared on Opie and Anthony, he was unable to provide proof for his stories 'Tucker Tries Buttsex' and 'The Absinthe Donuts Story'. After Max left the studio, the hosts criticized him and compared him to James Frey. GeorgeMillo (talk) 17:34, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

How about:

Several critics have questioned the truthfulness of Tucker Max's stories. When Max appeared on Opie and Anthony, he was unable to provide proof for his stories "Tucker Tries Buttsex" and "The Absinthe Donuts Story," which led to Opie, Anthony, and comedian Jim Norton to accuse Max of lying. The talk show then hosts compared Max's supposedly fictitious stories to the work of discredited fiction author James Frey Theserialcomma (talk) 23:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

If we want to talk about NPOV, I feel like its dishonest to call Opie and Anthony 'critics' and doubly false to use the word several when you're really only reference a single incident on a single show. And most importantly, with this article's history of trolls we should probably be careful when someone with no edit history tries to create a controversy section around a single damaging point. If this is such a big controversy why can't we just wait until they inevitably show up in print or are reported on elsewhere? TheRegicider (talk) 21:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

you are correct that it is inaccurate to use the phrase 'several critics' when referring to only one single entity (opie and anthony) as a critic. we must therefore add more critics (if we wish to retain the word 'several'), such as Jane Skinner of Fox News, and the criticisms from March 27, 2006's NYPOST article entitled "BLOGGER BAD BOY'S GOT DIRTY LAUNDRY" (see http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/nypost/offers.html?url=%2Fnypost%2Faccess%2F1031439621.html%3Fdids%3D1031439621%3A1031439621%26FMT%3DFT%26FMTS%3DABS%3AFT%26type%3Dcurrent%26date%3DApr%2B30%252C%2B2006%26author%3DRichard%2BJohnson%26pub%3DNew%2BYork%2BPost%26edition%3D%26startpage%3D015%26desc%3DPAGE%2BSI for paid access to the article. it's in the nypost archives and more than 30 days old, so it's not available directly for free. search "BLOGGER BAD BOY'S GOT DIRTY LAUNDRY" in google to see references to this piece. The interviewer in the NY Post article accuses Tucker of misrepresenting how he actually looks on the internet. The reporter wrote that Max's "pale, bloated face and flabby body were a far cry from the stud pictured on his Web site" and that he "seemed shorter than his supposed 6 feet." Max ended the interview by stating that "Eight times out of 10, if you come to my Web site (tuckermax.com) to have sex with me, there's something broken about you."

Are these better criticisms? I think it's a legitimate criticism that a reporter points out that he is meeting girls on the internet to possibly have a romantic tryst with (which is true - see his dating application), but yet he misrepresents his looks. That seems like a relevant criticism, even if it is a bit of a harsh reality. Theserialcomma (talk) 01:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

stop reverting

I added the new criticism section and McJeff swooped in to revert it within minutes. McJeff, you are not contributing anything positive by reverting the criticism section. As it was mentioned previously, you should edit and correct any sections that you think are wrong, not just revert to deletionism, which you even refer to as vandalism in your infopage. So I added a new criticism section, with some of the wording that mcjeff even recommended, and it was reverted without any specific reasoning, just a vague accusation that it violated every single wikipedia policy (yeah, okay). I anticipated that mcjeff would do this, as his reputation from his talk page and the discussion pages of his articles has other complaints of him doing this same type of insta-reverting when he doesn't like something. so I undid his revert, and told him to come to this discussion if he wished to engage in civil discourse on the criticism section, instead of just insta-reverting. i have been talking about adding/revising this criticism section for over 2 weeks now in the discussion, so it's not like i declared today surprise-criticism day. so anyway, when i undid mcjeff's revert, i forgot to add my sources (they were all in this discussion, but i didn't add them to the main page. anyone who read this discussion page could have added the sources themselves, but instead someone else reverted me again. it was still my bad for not adding the sources) at that point i went in and added my sources to the article, except i realized that this was my third edit, and in order to avoid 3R, I undid my third edit and left the article without the criticism section. i intend to add the criticism section back again soon, and hopefully we can come to a consensus of what is acceptable for a criticism section, instead of just deleting the entire section. the bottom line is, this guy is controversial, and he deserves a controversy section, so stop reverting it. instead, fix it if you think it's done poorly. thanks. Theserialcomma (talk) 04:25, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Please refrain from making personal attacks, it is uncalled for. As we have already established, I want a properly done criticism section in the article. This discussion page exists so that we can get the criticism section to adhere to neutral point of view and biographies of living people, and to contain absolutely no weasel words before it is included in the article. Yes, I think your criticism section was done poorly. I appreciate however the link to the Jane Skinner article, and it should be included - not including the borderline libelous dialogue about him being short and flabby of course, that doesn't meet WP:BLP or WP:NPOV. She criticized his physical appearance is all that needs to be said of her actual quotes.

However, as all points of view should be represented, someone should see if they can find the post on his message board where Tucker declared "I am not going to address any of the accusations that my stories aren't true until I am ready, and once I am I will demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're true". McJeff (talk) 04:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I apologise if you believed my words to be a personal attack. However, as much as I agree with some of what you've stated, when I asked you previously to add the changes that you've proposed, you have failed to do so. I am not a mind reader, so I don't know what you think exactly would be fair, or what you believe to be borderline-libelous (which, btw, a reporter publishing the opinion that someone is chubby and short is not libel, or even borderline-libel), and therefore I don't know how to avoid your insta-reverting. So again I ask you to add what you think is fair, and we can work from there. Let's work together to make this a good article, starting with you adding the changes that you think are fair. I will re add my changes again later and try to make it more neutral if you are still unwilling to do what you've proposed, although I am hoping that you will do it instead, and that you will stop reverting my sourced changes. Theserialcomma (talk) 05:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Whilst we should have a section on criticism, we need to make sure the references are as suitable as possible (per WP:Reliable sources) and the text as neutral as possible, particularly with articles on people (WP:BLP). Perhaps a third-party reference can be found for O&A's radio show interviews since they don't exactly seem "neutral" (compared to Jane Skinner's comments, for example.) I'll have a go at a rewrite later. Marasmusine (talk) 09:45, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The way I saw it is that while O&A themselves aren't a notable source, the incident itself is notable - however it should be described as "an incident" rather than "Tucker Max getting proved a liar", so in my original version I sourced that the incident happened but phrased it to carefully make sure it didn't sound like the article was taking an opinion on it one way or the other.

As far as the Jane Skinner comments go - a lot of times Tucker responds to things like the interview with her on his message board, and I'm unsure about sourcing things like that. I've been in discussions where it's been claimed message board posts can't be used because it's not 100% proven that the person posting is who he claims to be. McJeff (talk) 16:27, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking of something starting Max's stories have been likened to those of James Frey (citing FoxNews and O&A), then something like referring to "wild nights with women, drinking, etc" and to the possibility that some of the stories have been fabricated (citation to O&A) But I'm not entirely sure how to word it, not being familiar with any of these people's works. Marasmusine (talk) 09:50, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Re:McJeff. Surely we can cite from Tucker himself's posts on the RMMB? Is there really any reasonable doubt that he is the one typing those posts? GeorgeMillo (talk) 17:19, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm unclear on the policy in regards to people posting on message boards. I was involved in a case once. "zombie", the webmaster of the zombietime.com website, is a poster on the blog Little Green Footballs. On a post there but not on his website he claimed he was targeted by hacker groups, and it was eventually decided that it wasn't proovable enough that the "zombie" posting on LGF was the same guy who owned and edited the zombietime.com site. Of course, one of the people involved in that issue was a now-community banned tenditious wikilawyer, so I don't know. This is a big part of why I asked an admin to come help out - I don't know exactly what's in the rules and what isn't.

At any rate I'm concerned about finding the posts - the RMMB is so huge it's like looking for a needle in a haystack to find something. McJeff (talk) 06:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

although i would agree that direct quotes from owners of websites on their own message boards should be weighed more heavily than other random quotes from message boards, i would still say that a source from a message board is generally about as poor of a source as a chatroom. depends on the controversy surrounding the quote and the specifics of the situation, i guess. also, the (paraphrased from mcjeff's paraphrased) quote in question "i shall address all claims of me being a liar when i feel like it" or whatever, is a pointless quote. that is like saying "i will prove that i can telepathically fly to the moon ... when i feel ready. until then, just assume i'm legit. please?" instead, a quote that actually says something important would be useful. Theserialcomma (talk) 13:24, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

McJeff, I'm not sure why you keep removing the criticism section when the stuff is properly sourced and it was done by notable entities. Like I said on your talk page, the newspaper article could possibly be debatable as to its notability and it was just one person's opinion, however, the criticisms from O&A and Fox News DID happen. I thought we were supposed to talk about this stuff rather than do blanket removals, especially if stuff is from NPOV and sourced.Atlantabravz (talk) 16:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Criticism Section 2

What follows is the edit that Theserialcomma has been inserting, along with template-related markups as to what is unsuitable.

Several critics have questioned the truthfulness of Tucker Max's stories. When Max appeared on Opie and Anthony, he was unable to provide proof for his stories "Tucker Tries Buttsex" and "The Absinthe Donuts Story," which led to radio hosts Opie, Anthony, and comedian Jim Norton to accuse Max of lying. The hosts then compared Max's stories to the work of discredited fiction author James Frey. In a separate incident, Jane Skinner of Fox News also compared Max's stories to James Frey when she remarked, "My first thought reading [Max's book] was James Frey in A Million Little Pieces". While Max has consequently provided proof for some of his stories, many of his stories still remain unproven.

Tucker was also criticized by a New York Post reporter for misrepresenting his physical attributes on the internet. The reporter wrote that Max's "pale, bloated face and flabby body were a far cry from the stud pictured on his Web site" and that he "seemed shorter than his supposed 6 feet." At the end of the interview, Max revealed that "Eight times out of 10, if you come to my Web site (tuckermax.com) to have sex with me, there's something broken about you."

I can't find the inline-synthesis tag, but I use that because I believe Max's comment at the interview may be being taken out of context or used to give the wrong impression of him. The weasel words should go without saying, of course. McJeff (talk) 16:06, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I was under the impression that as long as it is not a test edit or pure and unadulterated vandalism, that we are to work on the article on the article and not within the talk page. I agree with Theserialcomma in that we need to keep it in there and then clean it up to standard based on debates and discussions we have in here. If you think that the article needs work, put it back on the article and fix the parts that you perceive to be broken. Or you can fix them on here and then re-post if that suits you better. Either way, I think the stuff needs to go in there as long as it is sourced and written from NPOV. And even if you perceive it to NOT be written from NPOV, there again, let's fix it as a community. The article itself is the work in progress as we all hash it out. I thought that was the whole intent of this project.Atlantabravz (talk) 16:18, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

McJeff, I am officially accusing you of vandalism. In the interests of civility, and because I don't know the proper course of action to have this situation reviewed by an admin, I am going to continue attempting a dialogue with you, even though you are blatantly vandalizing this article based on invalid premises. Someone neutral with higher powers needs to look into this.

You wrote on my talk page that "Several" is a weasel word. Are you sure? I said "Several critics have questioned the truthfulness of Tucker's stories" and then I cited 3 separate critics (opie and anthony show, jane skinner from fox, nypost), and it would be 6 critics if you want to count jim norton, opie, and anthony separately, as they all criticized him and called him a liar (but they are from the same show) . Several is defined as "More than two or three, but not many." Are you sure that several is a weasel word? Because if you would prefer that I wrote "3 critics have questioned tucker max" instead, that is a little ridiculous and inaccurate. I don't believe "several" to be a weasel word in this context, but i'd like to hear your take on it.

You then complained about section: "While Max has consequently provided proof for some of his stories[citation needed], many[weasel words] of his stories still remain unproven.[citation needed]"v. I'll be honest, I am perplexed by your objection to this sentence. This is the one sentence that defends Max for being a liar, and you object to it? You keep reverting the whole section, and you object to any sentences that defend him! this is absurd. are you really claiming that a citiation is needed for this sentence in his defense, or are you just trying to filibuster and complicate the entire criticism section? i don't know what your intentions are, but if it makes you happy, we can remove the line in tucker's defense until someone finds the sources for it.

Then you claimed that "Tucker was also criticized by a New York Post reporter for misrepresenting his physical attributes on the internet[weasel words]. The reporter wrote that Max's "pale, bloated face and flabby body were a far cry from the stud pictured on his Web site. Are you sure those are weasel words again? The full quote from the article is this: "I was stunned - not because I'd been scooped or by his gruffness. Max's pale, bloated face and flabby body were a far cry from the stud pictured on his Web site. He seemed shorter than his supposed 6 feet, smelled like a locker room and had a fleshy mole on his right nostril. Wearing baggy jeans, a gray tee and a black nylon, zip-front jacket, he looked like a convenience-mart cashier, sans the Redman chewing tobacco hat." So are you accusing the reporter of using weasel words? which ones and how? Or was my paraphrasing that reporter claims he misrepresented his physical attributes on the internet somehow misrepresenting her point? Please make sense of this.Theserialcomma (talk) 17:16, 11 July 2008 (UTC)