Talk:Nikki Yanofsky

Vandalism

Someone keeps vandalizing this page. If possible an eye needs to be kept on it. (Giligone (talk) 16:39, 13 February 2010 (UTC))

Winter Olympics

They aren't the "Vancouver Olympics." The info. was correct until someone butchered it. Jeisenberg (talk) 20:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I Believe

I think that the song I Believe definitly deserves a page. I live in Canada and currently, it is number one on the Billboard Hot 100. I'd write it myself but previous editing experience has told me that just writing articles is risky because they get a deletion template on them right away. So what do you think, does it deserve it's own page. Glee105 (talk) 23:59, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, its #1, on the Canadian Hot 100...71.125.160.119 (talk) 16:27, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Religious Views

Within the Personal Life section, there is a claim that Ms. Yanofsky is Jewish. The cited source does not reference a quote by Ms. Yanofsky, nor does it itself cite any sources on the claim that she is Jewish. I believe it's prudent to remove this claim, as per the policy regarding biographies of living persons (WP:BLPCAT). Additionally, the categories relating to religious views should be removed.70.67.226.146 (talk) 06:27, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

70.67.226.146—you say that, "The cited source does not reference a quote by Ms. Yanofsky, nor does it itself cite any sources on the claim that she is Jewish." It is not necessary to "reference a quote". Nor need it "cite any sources on the claim". This is a reliable source. Bus stop (talk) 16:46, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Strongly agree. Anything contested or contentious about a BLP article is subject to removal on site unless it's supported by reliable sources. Until someone wants to provide such a source regarding her religious views, it's already been shown by the edit history and comments above that the information *is* contested, so the material should not be readded in any form, whether it be as part of the article text or as part of categories, until that information can be properly sourced in a manner that is verifiable. Triona (talk) 02:17, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Triona—This is a reliable source. It is not "contested". It would be contested if for instance you brought a source that presented information which cast doubt on it, but you haven't brought any such source. Bus stop (talk) 16:50, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Triona. Religious identification clearly requires self-identification per WP:BLP. Yworo (talk) 20:23, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Yworo—I don't think any such wording exists in policy but if you think otherwise please bring that wording to our attention. Bus stop (talk) 21:02, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

WP:BLPCAT applies because the source does not clarify the basis on which they call the subject "Jewish". It is not clear whether it is a religious or ethnic identification. Also, Jewish sources are biased and frequently attempt to include famous people in the "tribe" whether or not the person self-identifies as Jewish. Thus the source in this case cannot be considered reliable. A reliable source will indicate the nature of the identification and the basis on which the determination was made. The source has been challenged and poorly sourced material should be removed immediately and without discussion per WP:BLP. If you could find a better source, we could discuss it further. The best sources quote the subject. Yworo (talk) 21:11, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Yworo—reliable sources apply here. WP:BLPCAT does not apply, as its applicability is to Categories.

The source is The Jewish Tribune (Canada). There is nothing deficient in the source. Nor have you brought another source that might cast doubt on the information provided by The Jewish Tribune (Canada). Bus stop (talk) 23:44, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Yworo—I've begun a discussion here: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Nikki Yanofsky. Bus stop (talk) 00:22, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't know why you've started such a discussion when I did not remove the material, but rather framed it more accurately. Yworo (talk) 01:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

This is not controversial enough for attribution. The source is reliable, and it's not a fact which any possible future data could controvert unless the source got it wrong. So while I'm for attribution for statements which are disputed, I don't think this is one of those times. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

This is a WP:BLP issue. If the source is not quoting Ms. Yanofsky, then that source needs to be made clear. Not only is she a living person, she's a minor. WP:BLP says "We must get the article right." Short of a citation of self-identification, we cannot be certain we are getting the article right. Yworo (talk) 04:07, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Well then it should be taken out entirely. I tried to find a source, and there isn't any other. They could have just included her because her mother is Jewish. But that would be their designation, not anything she'd identify with. At any rate, I took it out till something better can be found. She probably approved the designation, and it's a good source... but in this case it's iffy. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 07:19, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Y'all need to get a grip. BLPCAT does not apply unless we are talking about categories. If you want self-identification to be required for inclusion of this sort of material in the text, then you'll need to argue for that as a change in policy. As things stand, that is not what policy requires. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:21, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that yes, we have an RS which says she's Jewish, but there is a reasonable argument which says she might not identify herself as Jewish. There is only the one source that we have, and it's reasonable to say they might identify her that way solely because of her mother. So per WP policy we could put her in as a Jew... or we could say there is doubt about it. I'm just conservative here is all. I won't object to putting it back in, but I think it's reasonable to leave it out. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:27, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I would just like to note that it's policy to not re-add the contested information until a consensus occurs on the matter. The article that is so often cited, by jewishtribute.ca, is both unreliable in that it's from a decidedly biased source, but as well fails to address the matter of verifiability. They do not cite any sources for their claim that Ms. Yanofsky is Jewish, and in fact there are no other sources that I can find that independently indicate that Yanofsky is Jewish. Her own website makes no indication that she is, and I've found no interviews to the same. The point of the BLP policies is that we do not want to add incorrect information about living persons, as it could not only be considered defamatory, but it's also misleading. Let's keep this to the talk page until it's resolved, and keep the information out of the article. TheFrozenFire (talk) 03:52, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm 95% certain she is, but I also can see how a Jewish source would claim her just because of her parentage. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 08:26, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

That begs the question, Becritical—how would the source know that her "parentage" was Jewish? We follow the information presented in a reliable source because a reliable source has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. The reliable source says:

"Jewish artist records Vancouver Olympic theme song; MONTREAL – Jewish jazz sensation Nikki Yanofsky’s career continues to blossom."

This would give us the permission to say:

"Yanofsky is Jewish[10]and was born and raised in Hampstead, a Montreal suburb and she now attends St. George's School of Montreal.[11]"

We have not gone beyond what the source has said. What we are saying is wholly supported by our source. Bus stop (talk) 17:17, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to contest it being put back in, and you certainly have a good point. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 07:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Another source has come to light indicating that Jewish is apparently part of Yanofsky's identity. We find here that:

"Along the way, Yanofsky was mentored by many other Jewish artists, such as the composer Marvin Hamlisch, who featured her at age 14 at a Carnegie Hall performance in New York."

In the same article Nikki Yanofsky says:

"“Performing in Israel was so moving. How can anyone, Jewish or not Jewish, not feel connected to the people there? I enjoyed not only performing there, but seeing all the landmarks in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. I definitely want to come back to Israel as often as possible,” Yanofsky said."

The same article says:

"“She comes from a close-knit Jewish family. Her parents, Richard and Elyssa, who manage her career, support many Jewish causes, including the Israel Cancer Research Fund. The singer will be home next month to celebrate a Passover seder with her parents and two brothers ."

We already have from a few months ago the following reliably sourced information:

"Jewish artist records Vancouver Olympic theme song; MONTREAL – Jewish jazz sensation Nikki Yanofsky’s career continues to blossom."

I think we are clear ground as far as reliable sources are concerned to make the edit that Nikki Yanofsky is Jewish. I will set about doing that now. Bus stop (talk) 16:14, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

You are reading between the lines here. "mentored by other Jewish artists" does imply something, but does not directly state it. The quote about Israel is an even weaker, almost non-existent, implication you are reading too much into, and the next quote only verifies that her parents are Jewish and that she goes home for a Jewish holiday. The final one is the same possibly biased source that assumes she considers herself Jewish because her parents are Jewish. As the matter is under discussion and there are questions about the reliability of sources, you should definitely wait for discussion in which several editors are involved before adding the material to the article. Yworo (talk) 16:26, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Yworo—the subject of the biography is Jewish according to the two sources that have already been provided.

We have from February of 2010 a source which has as its title:

"Jewish artist records Vancouver Olympic theme song".

In its first sentence that source reads:

"Jewish jazz sensation Nikki Yanofsky’s career continues to blossom."

We additionally have this more recent source from March of 2011 which only reinforces the source from February of 2010. I have provided excerpts from that more recent source in my post immediately above.

Do you have a source that may serve to cast doubt on the assertions that we already have saying that the subject of the biography is Jewish? Do you have a source suggesting that the subject of the biography might not be Jewish? Bus stop (talk) 00:18, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

It was agreed above the the Jewish Tribune is not an unbiased source and does not cite any source to support their statement about Yonofsky being Jewish, but rather simply assuming that because her parents are Jewish they can call her Jewish. Our standards are higher than that. This is a living person and a minor. We can only report what reliable sources say. Sources support that she was born into a Jewish family. There is no source supporting the fact that she considers herself Jewish. Give it a rest, Bus Stop. If you can find a non-Jewish (i.e. unbiased) source that supports the fact that she identifies as Jewish, that I will accept. However due to her status as a minor, I won't accept potentially biased sources making assumptions based on parentage. When she turns 18, we can discuss it again. Yworo (talk) 00:34, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

P.S. One thing that concerns me in all this is: the girl has her own website. She has a biography on her website. If she wanted to identify as Jewish, she'd put it in her bio on her website. The fact that she does not identify herself as a "Jewish singer" and in fact does not even use the word "Jew" anywhere on her own website is the source that casts doubt on the fact that she identifies as Jewish. Yworo (talk) 00:44, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Yworo—you are adding material to the Nikki Yanofsky#Personal life section that I think is of questionable value. I don't think we should include the material conveying that the parents contribute to Jewish causes. I think that is irrelevant. Why should our article include the information that her parents contribute to Jewish causes? I think the same applies to the inclusion of the first names of the parents. Does the reader need to know the first names of Yanofsky's parents?

That her parents manage her career is in my opinion worthy of inclusion. Good catch there. I overlooked that.

We have more than enough information in sources that Yanofsky is Jewish. Prior to a week ago we had only one source saying Yanofsky was Jewish—but now we have two sources, and the two sources completely corroborate one another in regards to Yanofsky being Jewish. You have not brought any sources suggesting anything to the contrary.

You have raised several issues: whether Yanofsky "considers herself Jewish", whether she "identifies as Jewish", whether her being 17 years of age presents a problem, and whether the failure of her web site to mention her being Jewish negates that reliable sources say she is Jewish. Much of this is just conjecture. A quick point: we are not talking about inclusion in categories.

You are referencing self-identification. But this discussion is not about inclusion in categories. We are discussing inclusion of information in the body of the article. I would be amenable to leaving out mention that Yanofsky is Jewish if you could bring to light a source serving to detract from the sources we already have. Do you have any source that calls into question our present sources as regards this topic? I think that you need to find a source that serves to cast doubt on our present sources.

You've argued that The Jewish Tribune and the Canadian Jewish News are less than reliable sources. You've suggested that we need "non-Jewish" sources. Do you find any support for that in Wikipedia Policies, Guidelines, and Essays?

I don't think her web site needs to mention that she is Jewish. She is not a cantor. She is a jazz singer.

Also I can't understand how Yanofsky's age could have bearing on her being Jewish. Both sources in fact state Yanofsky's age in their articles.

Below are excerpts from sources:

"Jewish artist records Vancouver Olympic theme song".

"Jewish jazz sensation Nikki Yanofsky’s career continues to blossom."

"Along the way, Yanofsky was mentored by many other Jewish artists, such as the composer Marvin Hamlisch, who featured her at age 14 at a Carnegie Hall performance in New York."

"“Performing in Israel was so moving. How can anyone, Jewish or not Jewish, not feel connected to the people there? I enjoyed not only performing there, but seeing all the landmarks in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. I definitely want to come back to Israel as often as possible,” Yanofsky said."

"“She comes from a close-knit Jewish family. Her parents, Richard and Elyssa, who manage her career, support many Jewish causes, including the Israel Cancer Research Fund. The singer will be home next month to celebrate a Passover seder with her parents and two brothers ." Bus stop (talk) 20:08, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Because our BLP policy strictly states that it's better to leave out material that's in doubt. Policy also states that disputed information should not be added to a BLP article until there is a consensus on the talk page. There is not yet a consensus. Please by all means continue the discussion. Solicit a third opinion or open an RFC. But stop adding your changes to the article until there is a consensus as required. Yworo (talk) 15:15, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I have initiated a section on the Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard at this link for additional discussion and input from others. Bus stop (talk) 16:49, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Leaving the BLP question to the BLP notice board, what do the sources say exactly? If they say she comes from a Jewish family Wikipedia should say that she comes from a Jewish family. If they say her parents were Jewish then we should say that about her parents. If they say she is involved in Jewish causes we should say the same. It's not up to us to call her Jewish unless the sources do, and even there we should be careful as to verifiability and weight. I don't think isolated cases of being included in a category of Jewish people (e.g. in a list, or a throw-away reference in a source to being among a group of Jewish musicians) are particularly strong in the verification requirement. If the Wall Street Journal notes that she is Jewish that's one thing. But if a local paper or special interest Jewish publication notes it in passing without context, it may not be accurate for reasons noted. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:11, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikidemon—you say, "…if a local paper or special interest Jewish publication notes it in passing without context, it may not be accurate…"

What policy supports the idea that a "Jewish publication" may not be reliable for establishing that a person referenced in that publication is Jewish?

Also please see my response to your post here. Bus stop (talk) 15:47, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Quite simple. Jewish publications are not "mainstream", they are special-interest. WP:NEWSORG only applies to mainstream news sources. Even if they were mainstream, the policy on news sources clearly states, "Whether a specific news story is reliable for a specific fact or statement in a Wikipedia article is something that must be assessed on a case by case basis." This means that this specific question boils down to what the consensus is on whether the news sources should be considered reliable. Currently the consensus is that the sources are not sufficiently reliable to support the assertion you wish to add. Therefore the answer to you question is that the applicable policies are WP:CON and WP:BLP, the latter of which says that if there is not a consensus to add something to a BLP, then it may not be added. Yworo (talk) 15:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Yworo—stop removing the reliable source that you do here. The source does not mince words. It refers to Yanofsky as a "Jewish artist". Bus stop (talk) 11:19, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Yworo - if i may add my two cents: all reports indicate that nikki is jewish. not sure what's the issue? Soosim (talk) 05:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

The issue is that this isn't the Ministry of Ethnic Truth. Unless someone's ethnicity/faith is relevant to their notability, adding it to a BLP is placing undue weight on something they themselves may see as insignificant, and others have no right to impose. Sadly, a number of Wikipedia 'contributors' seem to consider this exercise in ethno-tagging as some kind of Mitzvah/Crusade/Jihad (delete according to taste), and do little else. Others see this symptom of OCD as disruptive, if not offensive. And no "nikki looks Jewish to me" (per your edit summary) isn't WP:RS. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:10, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Griswaldo—you say in your edit summary upon removing a source that it "does not verify the information it is being used for" Can you explain what you mean by that? Bus stop (talk) 03:13, 3 May 2011 (UTC)