Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Read these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. You are not autoconfirmed, meaning you cannot currently edit this page. Instead, use /Non-autoconfirmed posts. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
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2011 CheckUser and Oversight appointments: Invitation to comment on candidates

The Arbitration Committee is seeking to appoint additional users to the CheckUser and Oversight teams, and is now seeking comments from the community regarding the candidates who have volunteered for this role.

Interested parties are invited to review the appointments page containing the nomination statements supplied by the candidates and their answers to a few standard questions. Community members may also pose additional questions and submit comments about the candidates on the individual nomination subpages or privately via email to arbcom-en-blists.wikimedia.org.

Following the consultation phase, the committee will take into account the answers provided by the candidates to the questions and the comments offered by the community (both publicly and privately) along with all other relevant factors before making a final decision regarding appointments.

The consultation phase is scheduled to end 23:59, 4 October 2011 (UTC), and the appointments are scheduled to be announced by 10 October 2011.

For the Arbitration Committee, –xeno^talk 14:00, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Discuss this

YFuture time stamped to prevent archival. OpenInfoForAll (talk) 21:41, 5 October 2011 (UTC) Comment period extended. VanIsaac_WS^contribs 16:21, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

User:Floydian's continued proud violations of WP:INCIVIL and WP:STALK

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Despite being repeatedly warned on his incivility, User:Floydian has shown no interest in stopping. And despite being explicitly warned to by an administrator to avoid me, User:Floydian will not stop stalking and making personal and uncivil attacks on me wherever he follows me to. I've been very patient with this user for several months but it's now getting ridiculous.

And as you'll see below, he has no respect of administrators who disagree with him.

Starting with this user's multiple failed AfD's earlier this year that I was involved in, in which this user demonstrated some of the most egregious violations of civility I've ever seen, this user suddenly became obsessed with me, hounding me, showing up in discussions about articles that he had absolutely nothing to do with. Throughout his 7 month long obsession with me and interaction with other editors, he has demonstrated complete inability to interact properly with those he disagrees with. This list of his violations is long, but these are only the ones I've come across in just the few minutes of searching.

Incivility

• Here are just some of the amazing examples of this user's incivility at other editors and a couple to me. These are just some, starting from February into this month (September):
  

"are you fucking blind?"

"Use common fucking sense. That is a reason and an argument. Your vote is useless."

"Fucking tards"

"Way for two voters to change it to whatever the fuck they want to, because they're Admins. WHOO!"

"Its admins like you who don't pay attention to the bigger picture that make doing things take twice as long.", "Thanks for wasting time by making assumptions."

"wait...charitable? You're about as charitable as an insurance company!" , "Prove where I lied (but don't copy my post or I'll be an anal retentive prick because I have nothing better to do with my life)"

"are you really that thick?"

"This feels as fruitless as wiping a kittens nose in its pee to get it to stop peeing on the floor. If you can't be bothered to address basic points of debate, including but not limited to understanding what you yourself have posted, addressing points raised by others, and backing up your consensuses, then you are a waste of time."

Hounding and Stalking (and more incivility)

After the proud spree of incivility in the first few diffs above, Floydian began stalking me by showing up in discussions I was involved with that he had nothing to do with.[1][2]. He then showed up on my talk page, again regarding a topic and discussion he had nothing to do with, and just kept on hounding and baiting me, all on my talk page. [3][4][5][6][7][8][9] He just wouldn't go away.

In an apparent attempt to save face, the user inexplicably started an ANI against me for calling his behavior childish in the above exchange, despite him attacking me by calling me "childish" [10] and then "thick". [11] In that ANI, administrator Chris Cunningham/Thurmberward closed the ANI with no action but appropriately warned us to avoid each other.[12]

Since that ANI last April, with the exception of one AfD on a road [13] (I have a long history of strong interest in transportation articles), where user Floydian strangely attacks my "honesty" [14], I have managed to stay away from him. User Floydian on the other hand has repeatedly violated the administrator's notice in his own ANI and has continuously been hounding me. Just after that AfD he dropped in on Talk:News International phone hacking scandal (a topic obviously having nothing to do with roads which make up a majority of his edits) right after I made a comment there just to counter my opinion. [15][16] (His opinion was almost unanimously out of line with consensus). After I made an edit related to the Hollywood Freeway chickens article [17], someone quickly started and AfD on it and he immediately jumped right in to advocate its deletion.[18] (with the exception of a SPA, his opinion again was unanimously out of line with consensus).

The final straw came today after I created a stub for Hollywood Walk of Fame honoree George Hicks (broadcast journalist) where I removed a prod and began collecting citations to place in the article. Floydian jumped in out of nowhere and drops this foul language-laced attack on the article's talk page, the very first edit on it. When called on his stalking and his uncivility, his response was:

"once again you just say a bunch of nothing, and do a bunch of nothing, at the same time. What a great contributor!"

While noting that adding citations is always good to any editor, it's clear this user's sole motivation was to hound and harass me instead of improving the article. As of writing this user has made zero improvements to it. (I've made great improvements to it.) I'm tired of contributing and having to worry about his guy who is obviously monitoring my history page and has no sense of civility and boundaries, from jumping into articles I'm working on or discussions I'm involved with to throw attacks at me. My toleration for this is over. It's disruptive, immature and and at best extremely bad form.

Conclusion

What's terrible about his editor is that he thinks his uncivil behavior is perfectly fine.

For the first two diffs above, when called on his incivility by several users [19][20][21], he not only didn't apologize but actually doubled down. His response was most telling about his view of Wikipedia's civility policies.

“ I will continue to use profane language as I please, there is no rule against that (or can you provide to the contrary?) ”

[22]

And he stuck to his proclamation.

As administrator User:Fastily stated about his incivility in Floydian's failed RfA (have a read, it's quite amazing) which was almost unanimously opposed due to his incivility, "Many users have been blocked for much less." This user has been called on his behavior for the last several months by several administrators and users and yet he has not stopped. Clearly this user has not learned anything about civility in the last year. Nobody has ever been blocked for disagreeing with other users, but profanity laced personal attacks and hounding on this project should not be tolerated. Let's finally demonstrate that our rules against stalking, harassment and incivility are valued. Otherwise this user will continue with this poor behavior and others won't be deterred from it.

Feel free to delve deep into the evidence, diffs and histories and come to your own conclusion. Thank you for reading.--Oakshade (talk) 06:16, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Aside: I assume you mean User:Floydian - on at least three cases you mentioned User:Floridan. I presume those were typos? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:21, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Appreciate it.--Oakshade (talk) 06:27, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

You've been complaining about this for some time. Why was this not resolved in April? Doc talk 06:36, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

That was my response in the ANI started by Floydian against me. It hasn't been resolved because Floydian has ignored that ANI closing Admin's suggestion for us to avoid each other. Also his incivility was not scrutinized there so he just continued with it. I wished this was all done, but alas.--Oakshade (talk) 06:42, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

If you're looking for a "civility" block based on a pattern of incivility - I wish you luck in that endeavor. Doc talk 06:55, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• What does a bunch of evidence from months ago show? I've actually taken many steps to improve my civility since a failed RFA in the late spring; I have completely cut out my use of foul language (though Oakshade would like to consider words like "hell" and "damn" as foul, we don't live in the 1950s), completely toned down my edit summaries, and disengaged myself from most drama (where possible). I still tell people when they are being poor editors, but that is far from incivility - that is factually based, and telling someone that the edits they make are doing more harm than good is not personal, its part of building a good encyclopedia.

I'm assuming this report is a result of my posts at this talk page. As an aside, Oakshade regularly accuses people of OWNership, as you'll see in his generous collection of evidence, yet treats any interaction I have with him on articles he's created as stalking. Back to that article, Oakshade regularily contributes very dismal quality articles to the encyclopedia, makes no attempts to improve them, and fights vigorously against those who try to encourage him to include a source or write more than a sentence before hitting submit. Many of his articles are taken to AFD where the community's time is wasted for seven days because nobody wants to do the work that the initial creator should have done in the first place (WP:DEADLINE applies here in my mind). But I digress; after avoiding this editor for at least 3 months, I brought in a source to the talk page of their recently created article and asked them, for the love of god, to please include a source and do a little more research. The reason I found the page was because of the PROD placed upon it. Anyways, I don't feel Oakshade has any case here, and so I don't plan to reply any more beyond this once. Just the same thing as months ago, with the exact same evidence, and half a year of separation between then and now.

And as a last point, you added just over 11000 bytes of data in the edit to make this complaint (though as has been mentioned, most of that is probably copied directly from the report in April). Meanwhile, you added 1300 bytes of content to an article. This provides a value many like to refer to as the content : drama ratio. For what really should be a non-issue, you have spent far more of your time focused on this than benefiting Wikipedia. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 08:01, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

You say you have taken steps to improve your civility. I find the following edit summaries contradict that statement:

• once again you just say a bunch of nothing, and do a bunch of nothing, at the same time. What a great contributor! from 28 September
  
• Soon I'll just get your whole university blocked from editing :)
  
• Dummy edit to give dummy IP a hard time when they try to hit undo
  

I also find your response to this report contradicts that statement as well; Oakshade regularily contributes very dismal quality articles to the encyclopedia. I draw attention to the fact that my own ban history was gained through far, far fewer "incidents" and far far less serious reasons. I cannot believe that after the first list posted above, this user has not been blocked. Colofac (talk) 10:21, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

If we can't point out when we think someone is not providing a net benefit, then slowly the encyclopedia will be taken over by entropy. I'm sorry if people take it personally, but perhaps those people should double their effort and prove otherwise instead of taking it as an insult against their character. It's not. It's an observation based on the concrete content that you submit in the form of text, nothing more, nothing less.

The edit summaries you've cherry picked are certainly taken out of context. Perhaps read into them and the surrounding edits before jumping to conclusions? Please observe the history of that IP over the past 3 months and you'll see that yes, a rangeblock for their school is soon to be necessary.[23][24][25]

And if you think calling such a persistent vandal a "dummy" is an attack or personal assault, well, then you don't have a lot of hours logged to Wikipedia. Dealing with clever vandals over the course of three months, regularly trying to mess the articles you've committed a lot of time to, then YES! You become frustrated! Calling a persistent vandal a dummy is well-earned on the vandal's part, and I can't lower myself to the social interaction of a McDonalds Playplace, treating even the most extremist of people as fine and dandy. Vandals are vandals, I'm sure the verbal pain I cause them will be absorbed. As for the first summary, that's exactly the problem with Oakshade - Sooner than taking a source that I offered, along with my observation of Oakshade's persistent creation of two sentence unsourced stubs instead of taking the initial time to create an infomative and sourced article, he accused my of stalking, acting in bad-faith, and reported me here. You tell me where the good-faith was broken in that chain. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 16:37, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but calling someone a "dummy" is very much a personal attack. For someone who feels they can talk about logged on hours, you of all people should know this. Short articles are not "dismal", in fact, would you post the links to short articles the editor has created on my talkpage so that I can edit them to make them better? Calling all their edits "dismal" is uncivil and bad faith. I'm gonna advise you to drop your line on "worth" and "benefit", it is shockingly arrogant and totally unnecessary. I would rather short articles than that attitude. Colofac (talk) 17:50, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I am very much surprised to see you attacking Floydian for incivility. Does this mean we are not going to see anything like this from you in the future (maybe I missed where you conceded that it was wrong and undertook not to repeat it -- it's hard to stay up to date when people keep purging their own talk pages), or are you just being hypocritical? Hans Adler 18:00, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Thing is, have your own history Hans. Things like calling people "pedants" for example. Hypocrisy can be called both ways here. Colofac (talk) 18:26, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

So you are just being hypocritical. Thanks for the clarification. Hans Adler 19:35, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Really? Because the way I see it, you decided to hound me first, despite your own actions. Hypocrite. Colofac (talk) 19:52, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

In 2009? On Talk:Leeds by referring to a group of people you identify with as pedants? I couldn't help noticing that you were using Twinkle by your 8th edit. Anything to declare? Hans Adler 22:01, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Can I please block User:Hans Adler, User:Colofac, and User:Floydian for personal attacks on each other? --Carnildo (talk) 01:33, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

That would be a big leap of a judgment call, seeing as I'm not part of whatever they've got going on above. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 02:38, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Note - This was archived due to 24 hours of no activity. It's restored here as this should have a definitive ending (block, warning, Floydian's behavior warrants no action, etc.).--Oakshade (talk) 02:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

No response means nobody feels any action is warranted. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 02:43, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Nice try, but there were already responses including two advocating your blocking, and while 8 days of no activity might be definitive, 24 hours isn't.--Oakshade (talk) 02:50, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment tl;dr. This seems more suited to a user conduct RFC anyway. --Rschen7754 02:38, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

• Comment  At Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2011 July 13#Birchmount Road, I stated about nominator Floydian, "Statements such as, "I very much doubt Oakshade's 'honesty' " should have led the closing admin to understanding the nomination in general as a WP:IDONTLIKEIT and the reliance of other editors on the statements of the nominator as misplaced."  Unscintillating (talk) 03:59, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
• This case is very depressing. Despite the stringent language in Wikipedia policies WP:NPA & WP:CIVIL, it appears that in practice no administrator is willing to enforce them. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 05:25, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
• Yep, the entire state of the ANI board is very depressing. Loads of admins are little more than passive but arrogant couch potatoes themselves who fail to block even the most arrogant (ab)users like User:Floydian. I think a week-long ban is in order. I'm sorry, Floydian. ᴳᴿᴲᴳᴼᴿᴵᴷ☺ᶤᶯᵈᶸᶩᶢᵉ 09:25, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
  • No, I think you'll find it's because the vast majority of admins aren't going to issue a civility block unless there's a recent, persistent pattern of serious incivility, and (except in the most egregious cases) evidence that it has continued after at least one warning. At the moment, the evidence amounts to three diffs of very minor incivility (if indeed they are even incivil) presented by an editor who is not exactly averse to producing such edits themselves. If anyone wishes to open a user RFC then that is their prerogative, but this is going nowhere. Black Kite (t) (c) 12:03, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-close comment

Sorry for commenting here after the section has been closed, but I don't think it can go to the archives in its current state. The section was started by User:Colofac, a 'new' user of less than 350 edits. Here is an incomplete list of some ofthe user's activities so far:

• Edit #3 [reverts http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Apl.de.ap&diff=prev&oldid=446839542] a bad but apparently constructive edit from a school IP. Edit #4 reports the IP at AIV for blocking. This was declined.
• Edit #6 is a templated vandalism warning.
• Edit #7 is a WikiLove message to User:Mann jess.
• Edit #8 is the user's first Twinkle edit.
• Edit #11 restores presumably correct, but unsourced, information about Jews in Catalonia after a Spanish IP who doubted it has removed it. Edit #12 is Twinkle giving automatic vandalism warning to the IP. [26]
• Edit # 21 supports someone's block at ANI.
• Edit #22 advises on ANI to report someone to AIV for blocking.
• Edit #25 self-reverts via Twinkle as vandalism.
• Edit #27 is a weird test edit to the Sandbox ("blood leaking from their vagina").
• Edit #32 supports someone's block at ANI.
• Edit #51 aks for page protection at RPP.
• Good report of sock drawer / vandal Pokemonblackds at AIV and ANI.
• Edit #83 asks for a page creator's block at AfD.
• Edit #90 is an outspoken comment at ANI. [27]
• Edit #29 removes an expletive from Muslims Against Crusades, expressing sympathy with the vandal. [28]

The point where I first became aware of this user (but did not get involved) was WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive720#Flood of usernames with "NNU" and random numbers. Colofac opened that ANI report drawing attention to a large number of similarly named accounts of students of Jiangdu middle school in China. Colofac asked if there was a way to "stop this", expressing concern that the students might "try and push their vile propaganda through the site". In this context, Colofac had nominated an article with clear and obvious claim to notability for speedy deletion [29] and removed the automatically generated (by Twinkle) welcome message on the creator's talk page with the edit summary "removing unintended welcome. I'm not here to welcome." [30] This led to the user's first and so far only block. [31]

I am not sure who this is, but based on the edits I am pretty sure it must be a returning user, most likely a blocked one. Maybe someone recognises this English nationalist from earlier interactions? I don't recognise him, although his attack on me with a 2-year-old diff suggests I have met him before under an earlier account of his. In any case this user is clearly not a net benefit. As far as I'm concerned further discussion can wait until the account has started editing again, but somehow it didn't seem right to keep the section closed after an admin has asked for insane civility blocks for everyone, apparently without any proper research.

I have not examined the diffs presented by Colofac against Floydian in any detail, for a simple reason: If we allow incivility reports against 20,000-edit users (Floydian) by severely incivil 350-edit accounts (Colofac) to be anywhere near successful, we are setting ourselves up for extreme chaos. Hans Adler 12:13, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Is User:Oakshade the same person as User:Colofac? The initial report above complaining of Floydian's behavior was written by Oakshade who has made about 11907 edits. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 23:41, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

No. Two very different editing styles. I think Hans eyes just tricked him, but the rest of the post should be taken into consideration. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 00:46, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I've added a header for this post-close discussion. Cunard (talk) 00:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Go ahead and run the checkuser if you are so confident. It would seem Hans has a personal vendetta against me. You should know that once the checkuser has failed to make any connections, I will be opening an arbitration case against you. Colofac (talk) 09:25, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

You would need to show that previous dispute resolution (WP:DRN, WP:RFCU) has been attempted first. An arbitration case without those steps will inevitably be rejected. Black Kite (t) (c) 09:47, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm just predicting the inevitable failure of those processes. Maybe too hastily. Colofac (talk) 11:05, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It's your arbitration that would fail.... But if you look before you leap and scratch a face off, you'll see that Hans didn't suggest a check user, but rather another editor did. You're hanging out the bait (that is your aggressive assertions) to get a reaction. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 13:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

If you say so. I will begin communicating with checkusers now. Colofac (talk) 13:28, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I apologise for my confusion, though I am sure I am not the only one to blame here. The initial report by Oakshade was formatted very, very badly. With two sub-headings before the user's signature it's easy to make a mistake when trying to figure out who created this report. Colofac's overreaction to this distraction didn't help either. Hans Adler 15:10, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Possible legal threat

Sigh...you know it's a bad day when you have to open 2 ANI threads. Could someone please look at User talk:Lovelightlaugh, and review the comment I posted there, which was copied from an email sent to me by that user? I believe it could be a legal threat, and the fact that the user refused to withdraw it ("I sincerely do not know what I will choose to do but will base my decisions of whether this is fairly addressed based on all that which was discussed. I have the right to choose based on fairness, equality, being in the know of what I am making my choices based on. "). This is regarding the article Anastasia Fontaines which I deleted under A7. If anyone thinks that deletion was wrong and/or I'm completely misreacting to the whole situation, feel free to undelete and or trout me w/o asking. I'm off for a bit. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:20, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

You asked him to clarify after advising him that it was perceived as a threat and that the threat would lead to blocking. User explicitly refused to clarify and reiterated a specific condition required to satisfy him, which appears to reinforce that he is still threatening the legal alternative if he does not get his way. Indef-blocked. I left his talk-page unlocked for now should he choose to clarify an intent not to go legal as part of an unblock request. DMacks (talk) 07:34, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

How could you delete an article on a woman responsible for undying wisdom such as "If you take the time to look, you may find that somewhere next to every joke lies the truth." And there's more where that came from... [32]. Paul B (talk) 09:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes cartooney threats are bad but IMHO the article in question wasn't an A7 candidate. The text Some of Anastasia's works include the award nominated Comcast Cranky commercial, the controversial "Viva Viagra and her ensemble lead role as Ms. Dora in cult film Director Gregory Hatanaka film Violent Blue is a credible assertion of significance. This should have gone to AFD. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 13:14, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree 100% with the NLT block, but I also have to agree with Ron that AfD might have been more appropriate here. This seems to be a case where the subject isn't notable but the article does make a credible assertion of importance. 28bytes (talk) 16:30, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I, too, was on the border as to whether there was a credible claim of importance. There was no solid info about the film, and so wasn't sure if it was a sufficient info for starring in that movie to be "important". In fact, I explained to Lovelightlaugh (by email, because that was how xe was communicating with me) that if we could show that the movie was notable, then that would be sufficient to keep the article past speedy deletion, but would still likely end with the person's article being deleted by AfD (I ran a WP:BEFORE search myself). The editor even gave me enough info by email to make the me think the movie is notable enough for an article, and I encouraged xyr to write it. So, given the comments here, I'll go ahead and undelete the article on the actress and take it to AfD; maybe someone else can find some news articles about her that I couldn't find. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:40, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree that IoS is "borderline". The "cult film" Violent Blue she stars in doesn't have an article but the director does and so does one of his other movies. It may be that the movie is indeed notable but nobody has bothered to write an article about it yet. Notability is not inherited but "importance or significance" can be in some cases. However, it may also be that neither the director nor the other movie is notable but nobody has bothered to nominate them for deletion yet. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 13:09, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

• Ironically, punishing someone, or threatening to punish someone, because they have threatened you (or Wikipedia) with legal action is criminally unlawful (obstruction of justice, contempt of court, etc) in most Western countries. I'm rather surprised that such a policy exists, let alone is enforced so ruthlessly. I have no comment on the present case itself. Deterence ^Talk 09:02, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Blocks aren't punitive, they're preventative. In the case of the WP:NLT policy, the rationale is explained on the page. Absconded Northerner (talk) 09:17, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, and being locked in a prison cell is not punitive, it's preventative ;-) Deterence ^Talk 09:19, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

It certainly prevents that prisoner from repeating the acts that got him in prison in the first place.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:20, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

You know, Deterence, if you don't actually understand a policy or if you lack perspective -- and characterizing being barred from a private website as a "punishment" certainly demonstrates that -- perhaps you should be less free with the advice. You have less than 600 edits and yet here you are all over this page giving advice. Or, I should say, TRYING to give advice. Not the best approach. --Calton | Talk 13:03, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Calton, I casually gave an accurate legal observation as I was passing through. Which was significantly more constructive that your patronising and uncivil use of a ruler to measure our contributions. Deterence ^Talk 20:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

That's a strange new meaning of "accurate" I was previously unaware of. You see, "accurate" implies that the words were not only factual, but have some relation to the topic under discussion. Your comments didn't have the slightest relevance -- making them not in the bit constructive -- and hence my correction intended to discourage even more casual and uninformed commentary from you was perfectly constructive. If you don't know what you're talking about and don't want to take the time to find out, you shouldn't comment: THAT is constructive advice. At least one long-term contributor was barred by ArbCom from commenting here after a long series of uninformed responses were deemed disruptive. Yours can be excused because you're new, but that defense isn't going to last all that long. --Calton | Talk 22:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to butt in, was looking for my case. Deterence, you are not correct. Businesses have a right to admit or deny admittance for any reason what so ever, even if a person has a purchased ticket for entry. Its English common law and possibly dates all the way to Roman times. Today the only exception is the Federal discrimination laws against race, sex, religion, etc. US Supreme Court ruled on this in 1912, feel free to read, its 2 pages long Marrone v. Wash. Jockey Club, 227 U.S. 633, 636 (1912).

Subsequently this ruling was reaffirmed by every single Federal district, and state courts for the last 100 years, and was last used in March 2011, by Senior Judge Roger L. Hunt of Nevada District Federal Court. In the case (Ernest J. Franceschi, Jr v. Harrah's Entertainment), a card counter sued to get into a casino that mailed him an invitation. Judge Hunt could have used specific laws aimed at excluding card counters, but instead he went back to the 1912 SC decision and as he wrote in the opinion "At common law, a proprietor of a privately-owned entertainment establishment may exclude whomever he wishes for any reason, or for no reason whatsoever. Marrone v. Wash. Jockey Club, 227 U.S. 633, 636 (1912). In addition, Nevada and California courts have long since established that the "right to exclude others" is a "fundamental element of private property ownership."" (quote i used from section: Discussion-A-1 of the above link). Please do not take this as a legal opinion or I will have to bill you. ;) Cheers! Meishern (talk) 01:06, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

This all seems like a tangent to me, but businesses in California cannot necessarily exclude customers from entry based on the principle articulated in Allred v. Harris (the case cited in the Nevada federal case). Allred involved the intersection between picketing on private property, trespass, and the first amendment. California businesses are not allowed to discriminate on many bases (far more than the federal bases) and therefore can't "exclude" people from patronizing their business on any of thoses bases. See Unruh Civil Rights Act. And, naturally, each state in the U.S. is different.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• I'm not sure how my casual comment came to this. --Calton, all I am seeing in your "constructive advice" is a whole lot of argumentum ad hominem - four of the six sentences in your last post (above) began with the words "you" or "your", and one of the remain two was nothing short of a threat to have me "barred", (for what, I'm not the least bit sure.) And you didn't even try to show how I am wrong or how you are right. Constructive?
• Meishern, my comment clearly referred to "most Western countries". In most Western countries, deliberately harming someone who has taken legitimate legal action against you, solely to influence their willingness to take that legal action against you, is considered an attempt to subvert their right to seek justice before the courts. Such behaviour is described in many ways, and in many languages, but include variations of "contempt of court" or "obstruction of justice". I'm not the least bit surprised that the right to exclude patrons for (not quite) any reason is significantly stronger in the United States, where private property rights are considerably more entrenched into the legal system, but, I do remind you that most Western countries lie outside the borders of the USA. Deterence ^Talk 05:14, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• You're misreading WP:NLT. The way I understand it, the point of the policy is not to "influence their willingness to take that legal action against [Wikipedia]". It's meant to avoid disruption and chilling effects on other editors while legal action is in progress. Think of it this way: if you worked for a newspaper, and filed a suit against them, you'd no doubt be put on "indefinite leave" while the suit was in progress, to avoid disruption in the workplace and to avoid "poisoning the well" through your actions potentially influencing the newspaper's position. Same thing here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• The Bushranger, I'm not sure your analogy is comparable. If the "indefinite leave" is unpaid, then, most Employment Court jurisdictions would tear the employer a new one for placing the employee under such economic duress while the case remains sub judice (it may be different in the USA, but here in New Zealand the Employment Court would have zero patience for such coercive conduct by an employer). If the "indefinite leave" is paid leave, then the employee is still receiving the predominant benefit (an income) of his/her relationship with their employer. Is a blocked editor still receiving the predominant benefit of Wikipedia? I guess that depends on whether the predominant benefit received from Wikipedia by the blocked editor is merely the freedom to read Wikipedia articles or whether it is the ability to interact with, and contribute to, Wikipedia and its community. Deterence ^Talk 10:30, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• Isn't this now getting a bit off topic? What it is analagous to is irrelevant. Wikipedia has a NLT policy that we all abide by. Anyone making a legal threat is blocked until such time as the legal threat is removed or legal action is ended. If there's some misgivings about how the policy is worded, the Village Pump is that-a-way. --Blackmane (talk) 10:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• Blackmane, we're just shooting the breeze at the water cooler. Deterence ^Talk 11:01, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Which is actually why we have to block this user. We have a policy that is blind to the editor's membership in any group. If you make a legal threat against anyone in the community, you are not allowed to edit until the legal issue is resolved, or the threat is rescinded. The policy is simple, and is based on the first amendment right to free association, and does not take into account anything except the presence of a threat. The easiest way to run afoul of the law is to take into account an editor's race, religion, sex, perceived sexual orientation, veteran's status, marital status, creed, national origin, immigrant status, etc. etc. when applying these blocks. The fact that we routinely and consistently apply the rule is actually the key to legal protection. We don't discriminate. We are not required to provide full access to anyone, and nobody but Jimbo Wales and a select few others have it. All access is granted based on a member's actions, and by applying the rules consistently, we protect ourself from legal claims that we deny access because of prejudice. VanIsaac_WS^contribs 11:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Persistent Vandalism For At Least Two Years

Resolved

For at least the past two years and I'm sure much longer, IP's have been adding DJ Nihilist to a long list of pages dealing with electronic music [33] I have been patrolling these pages for years now. After returning from a very long break I discovered that many articles once again had DJ Nihilist added to them. I searched and removed all mentions of this person from the project. This morning less then 24 hours later this occurs [34], it's constant and on a number of pages. If I report the IP and get the IP banned will change. If we protect the pages within 12 hours of the pages being unprotected they will be vandalized again. I have spent countless hours patrolling and reverting whoever is behind this. Ridernyc (talk) 16:57, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

• After a look at their recent edits and their block log I've blocked them for three months. Drmies (talk) 17:30, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

(EC)Offhand, just keep playing whack a mole. The IP's been locked out by Drmies. If they reappear under a different IP, lock that one out as well and possible semi the the articles as well. Tabercil (talk) 17:34, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

That's a very long term pattern of vandalism. Abuse filter? causa sui (talk) 17:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I think causa has a point. Blocks are there to prevent damage to wikipedia but judging by the previous pattern of vandalism I don't think an IP block is going to do the job here. I think an edit filter is probably the best option. basalisk (talk) 18:51, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I certainly agree. "DJ Nihilist" should not be difficult to filter out. Drmies (talk) 19:33, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

• I've created an edit filter request: Wikipedia:Edit_filter/Requested#DJ_Nihilist. causa sui (talk) 20:15, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Filter has been made OpenInfoForAll (talk) 21:47, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

User:Ian Cairns

{{[[Template:Compromised doppleganger account indef'd. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:41, 3 October 2011 (UTC)|Compromised doppleganger account indef'd. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:41, 3 October 2011 (UTC)]]}}

I created the above account some time go as a doppelganger account to stop it being used to impersonate me (I am in the UK, and I am not Australian), and I deliberately forgot the password. Somehow, it has become activated today, and is being used. I am interested to understand how someone has done this - I can only think they have cracked the password? I would have no problem with the above account being indefinitely blocked - if that is seen as a way of avoiding the current situation. Thanks, Ian Cairns (talk) 19:26, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Blocked 24 hours by The Bushranger (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). Doppelganger accounts should probably be indefblocked at creation. causa sui (talk) 19:37, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Per the above, I've indeffed the account in question - the 24 hour bit was a misclick so I fixed it. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:39, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks. Much appreciated. Still confused about the password cracking though. Never mind - all sorted. Ian Cairns (talk) 19:45, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

We now have the doppleganger requesting unblock - see User talk:Ian Cairns. Apparently, whoever has the doppleganger is editing the article about Ian Cairns, and claims to be that individual. How they got access to this account is unclear. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 16:59, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I've turned off the "resolved" marker for the moment, as I am not sure this is resolved. User seems to be claiming in their remarks that they simply set up an account in the normal fashion, which shouldn't have been possible if it was, as the logs reflect, set up initially in 2007 as a doppleganger. Something's not quite adding up here. Either somebody is lying or we are missing an important fact somewhere. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:12, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Would a checkuser report be worthwhile? If nothing else, it would confirm that User:Icairns and User:Ian Cairns are unrelated insofar as who is actually logging in and using the account. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 19:22, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I've engaged the doppleganger in discussion, and they are more focused on the Ian Cairns article than the account - which is problematic, since we're trying to sort out the account. If everything seems aboveboard, and if checkuser (or whomever) can determine that this person just put their real name in and lucked into the password, then perhaps we need to give them this account, rename it (or confirm via OTRS the identity), then re-make a new "Ian Cairns" account to dopplegang - then immediately indefblock it, since it won't be editing. I still don't know how they got the password, though, unless it was something they lucked into. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 20:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The crux of this for me is this: how could it ever be possible for a user to believe they were setting up a new account, when in fact they were taking over an established account, albeit one with no edits? Either we have a very weird bug, someone is misremembering events or the currently blocked account hacked the account somehow and is a big fat liar. And since he dodges or brushed aside any inquiries into how he came to be using an account that was supposedly set up by another in user four years ago, its kind of hard to know what to think. CU may be of some help, or it may be utterly useless. I guess we could ask and see what they say. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:48, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Request  Done. [35]. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:57, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Per Beeblebrox, cross-posting result of my checks: [36]. As a non-technical opinion, I'm inclined to side with Icairns here. We could always ask Ian_Cairns to void the password on the doppelganger, and create a new account. AGK [•] 21:27, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I've (ICairns UK) kept clear of the above discussion as much as possible, since I felt I ought to report the problem, step back and let due process take its course. In view of the confusion of names, is there anything I can do from here to assist / clarify? e.g. reverify my email? change my Icairns password? something else? It would be more complicated / interesting if I still had the password for User:Ian_Cairns - but as I've said all along, that was deliberately forgotten years ago. To my mind, either Ian_Cairns (Aus) has got lucky with the password or there is an account creation bug that needs running to ground. I am concerned that all my current and past editing here on WP could be confused / compromised by an active User:Ian_Cairns, as per my reasoning in 2007. Thanks, Ian Cairns (talk) 22:50, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Further update: As per User_talk:Ian_Cairns, Ian Cairns (Aus) is offering to take a new account = User:Ian_Kanga_Cairns, and has asked if I would be OK with that. I have no problem, provided that Kanga also stays within his signature. He has also offered to rename his WP bio article to include Kanga, but I don't think that is necessary unless he particularly wants to. So, I think we may have a compromise / solution here. I keep User:Icairns and signature "Ian Cairns"; he gets User:Ian_Kanga_Cairns and signature "Ian Kanga Cairns", and User:Ian_Cairns remains indef blocked. Of course, there is one issue above that remains unresolved - however, we can also begin to think about moving forwards. Thanks, Ian Cairns (talk) 23:20, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

• I have to say I'm not fully satisfied that he has been completely honest about how he got access to that account, but in the interest of moving forward I have altered the block settings to allow him to create a new account. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:33, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

• Is it possible that if an account isn't logged into after a certain amount of time the server 'forgets' that the account exists (even though the userpage and account itself remain)? You would have thought (regardless of how access was gained) that the fact User:Ian Cairns existed with the doppleganger-account might have been noticed. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:55, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Repetition of ethnic slurs on talk page and edit summaries

From edit summaries:

(→Proposed wording for rfc: what context of you fucking jew bastard, uttered by our current democrat secretary of state did i leave out?}

(→Proposed wording for rfc: Monkey God, rat bastard, Niggar, faggot, White nationalists)

(→Trivia: typical fucking jew Indian)

From the talk page:

You fucking Jew bastard, Hillary Clinton

• “f***ing Jew bastard” [The Times (London), 18 July 2000]
• “f—–g Jew bastard” [New York Daily News, 17 July 2000]
• “f****** Jew bastard” [The Times (London), 16 July 2000]
• “f—– Jew b——” [UPI, 17 July 2000; euphemized fucking is one hyphen short]
• “Jew bastard” [Reuters, 10, 16, 17 July 2000]
• “Jew bastard” [The Washington Post, 18 July 2000]
• “Jew bastard” [New York Daily News, 18 July 2000]
• “Jew b——” [AP]

Talk:Tea Party movement (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Darkstar1st (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Darkstar1st continues to repeat ethnic slurs in talk page commentary and edit summaries at Talk:Tea Party movement, for example here, here, here and there are other examples including in the archives. I politely asked him to stop, but he replied, "if i enjoy them, why try to remove them from the page?"[37] Could other editors please explain to Darkstar1st that this editing is unacceptable and could result in a block. TFD (talk) 20:20, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Just like you actually can say "FUCK" on the radio if you're directly quoting someone, I'll ask if the person being quoted actually did say those words. They are not being used against anyone, they're apparently a direct quote of an important individual ... or am I reading it wrong? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 20:25, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Some of them appear not to be direct quotes, but amalgamations of things said by individuals. Either way I find them in poor taste, but I think that's not an issue in and of itself. What is an issue, from what I'm seeing, is the attitude he has towards repeating them, that he's doing it because he enjoys it, despite the clear disruption it is causing. At the very least a TROUT is in order, if not more.Griswaldo (talk) 20:34, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

if i enjoy them, why (am i trying) to remove them(the offensive language) from the article? which quote did i get wrong Gris? Darkstar1st (talk) 20:51, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

From strictly a policy standpoint, the WP:BLP policy in particular, some of those contentious "quotes" are dubious or merely alleged — and as such, would not be found in Wikipedia article space, so probably shouldn't appear on talk pages either. Other "quotes" are incomplete snippets, or taken out of context to distort their meaning; also attributed to living persons, and thus equally inappropriate. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

the tea party is not a blp and i am trying to remove the words niggar and faggot from the page, not add slurs which appears to be the opinion of the opposition to my edits. Darkstar1st (talk) 21:11, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the article is a BLP or not. Any statements about living persons fall under the BLP guidelines. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:20, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

true, so why is niggar and faggot on the tea party article instead of the persons page, or better yet not at all, why is wp publishing these slurs in the 1st place? Darkstar1st (talk) 21:23, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

We shouldn't be publishing them if they are inadequately sourced, sure, but there's no rule that "slurs" should not be published at all. This is not Whitewashpedia. It depends on the context. Paul B (talk) 21:29, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Either way, Darkstar is trying get some of the discussed words removed. (as near-irrelevant to / undue in the article) One can't argue that it is an wiki-offense to use them in the talk page while at the same time arguing for their retention in the article! North8000 (talk) 21:36, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

This kind of behavior is covered by one of the oldest behavioral guidelines: Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Darkstar1st is apparently repeating slurs in order to impress upon everyone with how offensive they are.   Will Beback  talk  21:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It is offensive that Darkstar1st continues to repeat these terms, as he has in this discussion thread. TFD (talk) 04:37, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

• Note For decorum's sake I did not repeat Darkstar1st comments. However I am now posting his edit summaries above, which are typical of the phrasing he has repeatedly added to talk pages. Editors may determine whether this type of writing is acceptable. TFD (talk) 05:36, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to paste all that bigotry here? I'm sure anyone reading this page can find the comments themselves. Absconded Northerner (talk) 05:49, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I added it in 9 hours after I posted this discussion thread and it appeared that no one had followed the links I posted. TFD (talk) 06:17, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Frankly, that seems a bit POINTY to me. Absconded Northerner (talk) 06:18, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

What do you think about the postings by Darkstar1st, the subject of this thread?   Will Beback  talk  06:35, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

IANAA but I agree with you that those are also POINTy. Absconded Northerner (talk) 08:20, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

This has sort of turned into a interesting three level situation. So it's:

• OK in the Article
• Not OK in the talk about the article
• OK (here) in the talk about the talk in the article.

?  :-) North8000 (talk) 10:41, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The issue was raised here because that kind of writing isn't "OK" anywhere — not on the talk pages, article space or in the edit summaries. Repeatedly spewing just select words which, when presented by themselves after being extracted out of context might be considered offensive, is inappropriate. He's been doing it in edit summaries and on talk pages, and fortunately hasn't yet done it in article space. Xenophrenic (talk) 10:54, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment It would seem at the very least that TFD has misconstrued DarkStar`s statement here if i enjoy them, why try to remove them from the page It would seem to me that DS is asking TFD that if he (DS) enjoys saying these things then why is he trying to get them removed from the article. And as these words are in the article, then it is obvious they will be discussed on the article talk page. Perhaps they ought be removed from the article and that would be the end of it. The Last Angry Man (talk) 10:57, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

TFD is saying that DarkStar appears to enjoy bandying them about on the talk page to be provocative. DarkStar denies that. Without seeing into DarkStar's soul it is impossible to know which of them is correct, but there is no misconstruction of a statement at all. The statement is Darkstar's denial. The words are in the article because they have been spoken by Tea Party supporters and are alleged by sources to demonstrate racism within the movement. Removing them would be to whitewash away legitimate sourced criticism. We cannot allow people to remove those naughty "bad words" from articles where they serve the explanatory function of showing that someone said them. That would be like removing references to mass murder from the Holocaust article because it is offensive to read about. Paul B (talk) 11:05, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

That mis-characterizes the main debate/situation. But that's a different, much bigger topic. North8000 (talk) 12:30, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

As someone who is familiar from having been on both the same side and opposite sides (e.g. at Libertarianism article) from Darkstar, if one is trying to read motivation from writing style, one must know how Darkstar writes. Throwing out the key (usually very intelligent) thought or example for impact, often with a frustratingly small amount of related words or discussion. North8000 (talk) 12:39, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

No it doesn't. Unless you have some argument, your assertion is as empty as my previous sentence. I've read the last sentence of your second message several times, but still can't understand it. Is there a verb in there? I'm not being pedantic. I genuinely can't tell what you are saying. Both Darkstar and TFD maybe being disingenuous and pointy. Both may be entirely sincere. Either way, the The Last Angry Man's argument that the logical resolution would be to remove the words from the article is...wholly illogical. Paul B (talk) 12:57, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The indent suggests that you are responding to my "mis-characterizes" comment, but it doesn't seem to be addressing it. Either way, I should clarify that my "mis-characterizes" statement refers to characterization of the main debate at the article talk page, not to the discussion at this noticeboard. North8000 (talk) 14:02, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the original poster's concerns, this complaint doesn't appear to have much to do with article improvement, or even article related content. I see a list profanity and misquotes that another editor keeps inserting into a talk page and edit summaries, with no relevance to the Tea Party movement article. Has this been addressed? Xenophrenic (talk) 23:15, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

In a related matter, that same editor has reverted attempts to alleviate some of his BLP violations, as in this edit — that appears to me to be more pointy, provocative and unproductive editing. Am I getting the wrong impression? Xenophrenic (talk) 23:22, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

User:Darkstar1st continues to add off-topic material to Talk:Tea Party movement. — goethean ॐ 17:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Trongphu calling others racist at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nguyễn Xuân Minh (Wikipedian)

See [38] and [39]. Axxeua (talk) 00:31, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

• Having read Trongphu's (lengthy) posts I can see no hint of him/her calling other editors "racist". Indeed, I can't even see where one could possibly infer that he/she was implying that other editors are racist. Making such a serious allegation, which appears to lack any substance whatsoever, appears wholly mischievous. Why was such nonsense brought to this noticeboard? Deterence ^Talk 00:59, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

This sentence is a borderline problem: "For many that supported delete they either think Vietnamese people is not important or have nonsense reasons. " That seems to say that if I were to go to delete that article, I would either be speaking nonsense, or I must be racist against Vietnamese people. However, the comment is pretty mild as far as such things go, so I don't see anything here to really be upset about. It's clear that Trongphu is not a native English speaker, so the comment may not have been intended as strongly as it appears; it's also clear that Trongphu is a bit (possibly overly) emotionally involved in the subject. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:12, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Some of his comments at the DRV for the article were a bit...strongly worded as well. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:56, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

After his further comment at the AfD that "Their votes are hatred votes not rational votes" I have warned him. I'm not going to take any admin action though, because I commented at both the DRV and AfD. Black Kite (t) (c) 12:10, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm almost prepared to block him for the duration of the AFD for WP:DISRUPT and WP:CIVIL at this point ... (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:36, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

You'd find no objections from me. Black Kite (t) (c) 18:01, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I've blocked Trongphu for five days for continued disruption and incivility. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Slow edit-warring and refusal to follow WP:BRD

User:Cydevil38 is repeatedly reverting edits on the Korean particles article, and refuses to engage in any meaningful discussion by listening to the arguments of others. I have reminded the user repeatedly regarding WP:BRD, and that discussion on the talk page to gain WP:CONSENSUS is a better alternative to the slow edit warring that has been taking place (and slow edit-warring is still edit-warring).

This user is repeatedly removing the Hanja from the page that I created a few days ago, which is disruptive and irritating. Long story short, the Korean language uses two writing systems: Hangul most of the time, and Hanja (in conjunction with Hangul) in certain circumstances, such as legal documents and published academic works (for example, the Constitution of South Korea is written in Hanja). I originally included the Hanja within the article as examples of text, so that the article would be more informative. To account for two different possible ways of displaying Korean orthography, the article contains example texts written in two lots: one entirely in Hangul, the other in Hangul-Hanja mixed script, in a similar manner to how Chinese linguistic pages are glossed with Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese, Serbian pages are glossed with Cyrillic and Latin alphabet, Mongolian with Mongolian Cyrillic alphabet and Mongolian script, and so forth. This user insists on eliminating all instances of Hanja, claiming that they are "unnecessary" diff, despite that it is well known even in Korea that Hanja is an indisputable part of the Korean language (see [40], [41], [42], [43], [44]). I interpret this as a form of nationalistic WP:IDONTLIKEIT and an attempt to downplay the usage of Hanja in Korean; no other editors have shown dissatisfaction over the content of the article except for this one editor.

I have provided detailed explanations on the article talk page concerning my rationales for writing the article the way I wrote it; Cydevil38 avoids the question whenever he or she is able to, and makes the false assumption that I am trying to force Chinese language into the article (note that Hanja ≠ Chinese; one is a writing system, the other a language), which makes no sense at all (the Japanese language uses Kanji, but that does not make it any more "Chinese"). As a linguistics-related article, the purpose of the article is to inform with as much detail as possible, and inclusion of Hanja does not thwart that; rather it makes reading all the more educating. There is absolutely no reason why this dispute should exist at all; it is essentially a non-issue being inflated by one very stubborn editor. This user has absolutely no idea what they are talking about, and as shown by their confusion between language and script, I don't think they have the WP:COMPETENCE to be editing a linguistics-based article. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 16:15, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

It's a bit more complex to separate the use of Chinese characters per se from both Korean and Japanese since both of those languages are in some way derived from Chinese, but that's neither here nor there. --Blackmane (talk) 16:29, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Examples of academic publications published in Hangul-Hanja mixed script:

• 漢文讀法에 쓰여진 韓國의 角筆符號口訣과 日本의 오코토點의 비교, 2003
• 韓國精神文化硏究院 新刊案內, 1985
• 韓國의 古代 漢詩 硏究를 통한 東아시아 춤의 理解, 2009
• 국제근로계약(國際勤勞契約)의 준거법(準據法)에 관한 한국(韓國)과 중국국제사법(中國國際私法)의 이동(異同), 2010
• 전후기 (戰後期) 한국농업문제 (韓國農業問題) 의 성격변화 (性格變化) 와 정책대응 (政策對應), 2006
• 韓國의 土活字印刷術에 관한 硏究, 2008
• 한국선시(韓國禪詩)의 발달사(發達史), 2006
• (特輯): 제 12 회 법을 통한 식민지배; 법 (法) 을 통한 일본 (日本) 의 한국식민지배 (韓國植民支配)-제 2 차 (第 2 次) 한일협약 (韓日協約) 후의 민사법 (民事法) 을 중심으로, 2007
• 한국(韓國)의 회사법(會社法) 개정내용(改正內容)에 대한 개관적 소개 -2009 한양대,간사이대 공동발표회에 부쳐, 2009
• 연구논문(硏究論文) : 한국(韓國)의 수출함수(輸出函數): 수출단가(輸出單價)와 수출물가(輸出物價)의 비교(比較) 및 효율적(效率的) 공적분추정법(共積分推定法)의 이용(利用), 1995

These are just the tip of the iceberg. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 16:52, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I won't be taking any administrative action in this since it might look like favoritism, but as for the content issue I think Cydevil38's reverts have no justification (there is no reason to remove what he is removing). It also looks to me like he has not made a genuine attempt to resolve the issue without edit warring. rʨanaɢ (talk) 18:32, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Hanja is not used that much in Korea anymore. Its use is commonly limited to the odd advertisement and sometimes in the newspaper if there is an ambiguous word. Compared to 50 years ago when newspapers were at times 80% or more hanja. It's an unnecessary duplication of content to give Hanja that most people would never see. I'd also question why your "new" article links to sections on wiktionary that don't exist. Every link you've added has a #japanese section attached to it. I'd question why they're there at all. wikipedia is not a link directory and we're not supposed to be linking to external links in the main article text anyway, let alone creating some kind of link farm to wiktionary. I'm also not sure what the basis of an encyclopedic article is here. It seems to be little more than content that is appropriate for wiktionary. You've included no content here that would push this into the realm of encyclopedic article, and it's not a list of things that we'd otherwise have articles on. If this is the extent of the article, I'll go ahead and redirect it because it is nothing more than a language how-to guide.--Crossmr (talk) 23:00, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The links to Wiktionary are not my fault; they're part of the template, used for uniformity between Japanese particles, Chinese particles and Okinawan language#Particles. And no, redirecting on your part would not be a helpful solution because the article demonstrates grammatical particles used in the Korean language, and is not a how-to like you claim. Other linguistic articles similarly employ the use of textual examples to bring ideas across; this is more or less a standard across many linguistics articles. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:05, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Did you choose to use the template? They're poorly used, and in fact even more broken on the Chinese articles as they actually go to a Japanese section. Blaming the template is hardly a good defence. If the template is broken, fix it or don't use it. It's bad enough that we try and turn some of these articles into an advertisement for wiktionary that we have to turn around and link to the wrong things on top of that. Seee WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS I see no compelling argument that this isn't a how-to article. There is absolutely no encyclopedic discussion of the particles at all. This is WP:NOTHOWTO and WP:NOTADICTIONARY.--Crossmr (talk) 07:44, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Copula (linguistics) uses example sentences in Georgian, Spanish and various other languages, to demonstate the copula. Predicate (grammar) uses example sentences in English to demonstrate the predicate. Japanese particles uses example sentences in Japanese to demonstrate various Japanese particles. Would it be more constructive to view Predicate (grammar) as a WP:HOWTO article on how to use predicates in English, or would it be more constructive to view it as a lingustics article that explains an important aspect in the English language? Everything can be viewed in two or more ways, it's just that out individual attitudes determine which path we pick. Claiming WP:HOWTO isn't the best way to fix this situation; if you really are that uncomfortable with the article and its lack of detail outside of the list of particles that use the examples, then WP:SOFIXIT - expand the article and add a better introduction and sections of detailed prose; the article is unfinished (I never said it was complete, did I?), and prior to it being an actual article, Korean particles was one of those highly sought-after articles that didn't exist. I've started the article, using the format and structure based on the Japanese particles page; anyone can finish it, so why not let it be you? Would it be more constructive for the encyclopedia to burn the half-built house down, or to actually finish the house?

>Did you choose to use the template?
What do you mean, "did I choose to use it"? Would you rather me waste three times the man-hours fiddling with wikisyntax and end up with a page that's ten times less aesthetically appealing and ten times more messy? Do you "choose" to use the {{Infobox Korean name}} template when creating articles too? Your question is quite odd. A template is a template; it makes articles better whilst making composition easier and work less tedious.

I also think you have your policies confused: WP:NOTADICTIONARY does not apply, as this isn't a one-word article about that word; whilst the, thou and fuck are words notable enough for their own Wikipedia articles and contain encyclopedic material, many are not notable and WP:NOTADICTIONARY is supposed to address those cases. Linking to Wiktionary is not a crime, and linking to any other cross-project page is not a crime; your accusation of "advertising" is quite absurd. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, all this talk about HOWTO and whatnot does not belong here at ANI. The focus here is edit-warring; if you want to discuss HOWTO, take it to the proper place, that is the article talk page. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and it takes a minimum of 2 to engage in that edit war. You've tried to paint the edit war with a certain light to make your edits look fine, but frankly I don't think they are. I would note that you also engaged in edit warring over removing this edit [45] which frankly is also inappropriate. These articles have absolutely no relevance to the article in question. See also are for topics that provide further insight and are related to that topic. They are not. Those pages provide no further information on Korean particles. Your argument still seems to be one mainly of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and WP:ILIKEIT. The current article in its current form is nothing BUT example sentences. As you haven't even expanded it beyond that by one sentence, I can't see the compelling reason for having this created in the first place.--Crossmr (talk) 11:38, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Alright, so I've painted the edit war in a certain light, and I've been a participant in this edit war. This was a bad action that I have done, and like all human beings, I do bad actions. I admit that I might have been guilty of violating WP:EW due to my harsh overreaction based on a mixed feeling of emotions, like humans do, and as a responsible member of the Wikipedia community I should not have been doing that. I did before I thought, and this is my fault. However, can you address what I have explained regarding the use of Hanja within academic texts? The examples are right there in front of you. Why is it still being insisted that Hanja is nonexistant and extinct, when there are passages and links right in front of everyone? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 16:29, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

As for the decline in Hanja use, that is only for mainstream texts such as newspapers, magazines, signposts, et cetera. Reports made by lawyers and the like are still required to use the Hanja script. Even taking mainstream texts into consideration, 50 years isn't that long ago. The decline of Hanja gradually took place over the 1970s, and today your everyday text uses mostly Hangul. However, as a comparison, on mainland China Simplified Chinese surplanted Traditional Chinese since 1956, much earlier than the demise of everyday Hanja, yet Traditional Chinese is still recognised in linguistics and glossed alongside Simplified Chinese in many contexts. From the beginning of Hangul during the era of King Sejong in the 1400s to the demise of Hanja in the 1970s, Korean mixed script for vernacular writing has had a much larger timeframe than Traditional Chinese characters being used in Vernacular Chinese text on mainland China, beginning from the May Fourth Movement and ending in 1956 when the simplified script was officially enforced by the PRC government. Korean mixed script was born earlier than Traditional Vernacular, and "died" (though that's not the right way to describe it) much later as well; even though widespread usage is not the case today, it is still a) linguistically relevant to the study of the Korean language, b) undeniable that it was once (i.e. 50 years ago) the standard way to write Korean, and c) still used even today in academic and legal areas. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:17, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Korea!=China. I know China has tried to change that once or twice, but in fact these are two different scenarios. Standard Hanja usage is only to use it ambiguous words, in this case, you've chosen to use it in several non-ambiguous words. As for BRD, you've only just created this article, you were bold in inserting unnecessary hanja, and it was removed there was no consensus for its inclusion and yet you reverted it. The article was not around long enough for the status quo to be the inclusion of Hanja.--Crossmr (talk) 07:44, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

What you have said is only the case for things such as newspaper reports, when homophones are disambiguated with Hanja. Have a look at [46]; this published paper on economics uses Hanja for many nouns and verbs, irregardless of whether there are homophones or not. An example sentence from this link is "즉 輸出單價를 EG方法으로 推定한 경우에는 非彈力的인 것으로, 輸出物價를 이용한 경우에는 單位彈力性을 갖는 것으로, 그리고 效率的 推定法을 이용한 경우에는 매우 彈力的인 것으로 판명되었다."

Alright then, let's play along with what you've said. Even if that were so, your claim "you've chosen to use it in several non-ambiguous words" does not entirely hold true. For "저것이 漢江이야" used within the page, I could argue that it is homophonous with "저것이 韓江이야". Same goes for the personal name 正男; what separates his name from other names such as 正南, 正嵐 or 正藍? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

You apparently don't understand the meaning of the word "several". I said "several" as in "many" not "all". The first three I checked are not ambiguous. That is several. If you're genuinely using any words which are ambiguous you can distinguish them with an in-line hanja as the newspaper does. Its completely unnecessary to repeat the sentence just to change a couple jamo to hanja. As for the template, if you want to give the page a certain look either use/build a correct template, but trying to shoe-horn in an incorrect template, as has been done on Chinese particles does not benefit the article. Despite all that, I find your edits to this article to be just as disruptive as Cydevil38s. Now further add that to the dancing we've seen here in this thread, and the attempt to mischaracterize his edits to win a dispute and I'm beginning to see a genuine problem. I've noted in the past you've had issues when you get into disputes with people on pages, you've had a couple of wikiquette discussions over your behaviour, one only a few months ago, and I know on another article you were repeatedly warned about your behaviour towards other people whose edits you didn't like. BRD could just as easily apply to you as you were bold in turning this redirect into an article and you had work reverted so you should have discussed it rather than engaged in further reverts.I should also note that you first revert contained this text For native Japanese and Chinese speakers learning Korean, which sounds exactly like a how-to and not an encyclopedic article at all. I would also note that Cydevil fully explained the rationale behind his first two removals before you degenerated to a generic dismissive revert with rev 2 edits: WP:BRD, take it to the talk page. so far everything appears as WP:IDONTLIKEIT. So you're right. We need to focus on the edit warring that went on here.--Crossmr (talk) 11:38, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

As an uninvolved admin trying to make sense of this, could I ask that either of the main protagonists in this thread please make a specific request for admin action? Or failing that could you take this discussion to a different forum? You seem to have moved away from the original complaint about a third editor into a debate which few admins here will be qualified to comment upon. I don't think this is the right place to resolve your disagreement, though I would advise both of you to try and see if you could move some way towards seeing the other's point of view rather than continuing to move away from one another as you are doing. Try and find what you have in common, rather than what separates you! Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 12:12, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Simply put Benlisquare came here looking for a block of Cydevil38, as its the only admin action he could be seeking in this incident. He tried to label Cydevil's edits as disruptive, I've simply pointed out that his edits are just as disruptive, if not more so. An admin should review the behaviour of the two editors and how they've handled the dispute and see if any blocks or other actions are warranted. I'm also suggesting that past behaviour be examined as I'm noticing a bit of a recurring trend with Benlisquare. In the past it's been noted that he's been uncivil and edited inappropriately in these kinds of disputes, and after my examining this, it looks like he's done so again in a round-about way by trying to mischaracterize Cydevil's behaviour. Specifically this edit [47] has a WP:BATTLEGROUND feel to it as he seems to have simply been reverting both edits simply because Cydevil did them. They're two separate issues and he provided nothing in his edit summary to support both actions. He went on to further that with this [48]. There may be WP:OWN issues here as well from the tone he's creating with those edit summaries and the way he made his request here.--Crossmr (talk) 14:52, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

>it as he seems to have simply been reverting both edits simply because Cydevil did them.
Not at all. Rather, don't you think it's frustrating when someone keeps removing content from an article that you created, and refuses to engage in meaningful talk? There are these strange things called human emotions, and patience is one of them; mine is limited. You seem to sugarcoat Cydeil38's actions, despite that none of his arguments made on the talk page nor in edit summaries make sense at all. I can similarly argue likewise: I've earlier been reluctant to call this out, since I'd definitely been ostracised to hell and back for WP:NPA, but my initial suspicion was that Cydevil38 was the one reverting simply because I was responsible for the article, given our sour history between each other.

>Simply put Benlisquare came here looking for a block of Cydevil38
So I guess they don't give out warnings at ANIs like they used to in the old days, right? Great for you to assume horrible faith. All I am after is that this nonsense ends ASAP, and any form of third-party action is better than nothing at all. This is "Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents" after all, and we have an incident regarding this article.

>it looks like he's done so again in a round-about way by trying to mischaracterize Cydevil's behaviour
Are you aware of how a discussion works? Party A gives their account of the story, Party B gives their account of the story, and a third party makes something out of the two stories. You shouldn't be expecting either party to give a story that is Fair and Balanced(TM), and if that was the case, I wouldn't recommend a career as a lawyer. Cydevil38 has been notified of this discussion; I find it strange that he has the time to revert after being notified, and doesn't bother to state his part of the story, leaving you to act as his liason officer.

>you've had a couple of wikiquette discussions over your behaviour
It would be great if you'd focus on the now and not the then. Digging up what might have happened between myself and others a few full moons ago isn't helpful towards solving this dispute. Putting most of the blame on me for this dispute is uncalled for as well, and anything that has happened in the past in politically-contentious articles such as those relating to the Chinese democracy movement or the Manchus in China are on a different string to this dispute, which is not even remotely related to politics and the like. Alright then, let's say I have quite a history; that doesn't make Cydevil38 any more angelic either, as both pots and kettles are a dark shade of black. I too can play the "he has a nasty history" ad hominem card; ignoring disputes on Wikipedia (there's quite a number to list), even doing a google search for "cydevil38 -wikipedia" will get you:

• cydevil38 says: (2011/07/01 at 4:30 pm) Chinese will cheat every way they can. This is just more proof. Chinese = cheaters Blacks = rapists Mexicans = theives
• cydevil38 says: (2011/06/29 at 5:52 pm) Chinese are so perverted and gross. They should be so ashamed of themselves. If I were Chinese, I would probably kill myself. Those Chinese gorilla’s just can’t keep their paws off Asian and White women.
• cydevil38 says: (2011/06/29 at 6:01 pm) I agree! Chinese should have a bloody revolution... I think anarchy, poverty, and starvation are better than not having freedom and democracy... I think Colonialism from the West would truly help the Chinese.

In other words, I'm quite appalled at how you're trying to make Cydevil the angel with white wings who is the victim of this current situation, and I am also appalled at how you choose to use the "digging up" card to address this issue. Going for an editor's history does no good towards any discussion, and it distracts from the main problems, as (I hope) I have demonstrated. I do not claim that I am a saint; I am a late-adolescent male who likes to pick drunken fights at a night bar just for the kicks of it (though I'd have no idea why I'd ever want to pick fights on Wikipedia), and I am definitely not a good person by 99% of people's definitions. Neither is Cydevil38 by my definition. I get emotional sometimes on Wikipedia during disputes, sometimes even making rash outbursts, as evident by my past. So does Cydevil38. If he didn't, I wouldn't think that would be what a normal human would be like. Given that I have striven to keep out of any form of trouble on Wikipedia for the past few months (hell, I've even declined an invitation to participate in the Senkaku Islands dispute discussion, as I know I get emotional over politics), I have the intention of the whole "fresh start" shebang, which is one of the things discussed in Wikipedia's core policies. Having you go back to them is somewhat like rubbing salt into an old wound. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 16:12, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

For the record, I'm appalled at what Benlisquare wrote of me. I've never written what he claimed I have written. I've never posted on that site. As with the topic at hand, I still see all those Chinese characters as extraneous and not helping out with the readers in getting a better understanding of the subject. Cydevil38 (talk) 20:42, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I suggest that you start a content RFC on the article talk page. Get more uninvolved opinions (like crossmrs) and see what consensus suggests. Then, if someone is editing against consensus action can be taken. Karanacs (talk) 16:44, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

User:Ravishankar9853

This editor has persistently uploaded copyright violating images (I can't give diffs because they have been deleted), has repeatedly been warned, and has continued today. I think a block is in order. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:13, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Blocked indef. The repeated copyvios, combined with zero communication or attempts to address the concerns expressed regarding their editing, do not instill any faith that a time-specific block will be effective. Should Ravishankar9853 have a change of heart and decide to edit constructively and within policy, they can request an unblock. --Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 21:43, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

IP persistently making unsourced, dubious additions

90.201.251.28 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

I previously raised this IP's edits here. After the last block expired, the IP is still adding unsourced information ignoring warnings to source their edits and has made another false caption change [49]. It appears to be the same person editing from this IP throughout (another noticeable habit is capitalising everything in the infobox [50][51]) and I'm concerned this is long-term subtle vandalism by adding false information. January (talk) 22:00, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Pressing Need: The it.wiki's freedom is under threat!!!

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Not an incident and doesn't need discussion here. Village pump perhaps. ╟─TreasuryTag►cabinet─╢ 08:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. The WMF has made a statement on this already [52]. Pointer to discussion on meta for those interested: [53]. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 08:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

---

I'm an italian wikipedian. I don't know if this is the right place where post the ad, but please read this: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Comunicato_4_ottobre_2011/en — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.71.82.213 (talk) 22:33, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there is anything that the English Wikipedia can do regarding a law from Italy.--70.24.211.105 (talk) 22:38, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Where are the italian wikipedia's servers? aren't they all in the same place?--Crossmr (talk) 22:40, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The different language versions of Wikipedia are semi-independant... But where are the Italian Wikipedia's servers located? Looking at this and this, it looks like most of the servers are located in Florida, USA; Amsterdam, Netherlands; and Seoul, South Korea. I would argue that only US, Netherlands, and South Korean laws apply to Wikipedia. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:48, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

You're going to want an LLM in international law before you field that one.--Tznkai (talk) 23:10, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

If Iran tries to apply their laws to my dad's favorite liquor store, it'd result in serious problems for Iran. All the Wikipedia sites are American, Netherlands, and Korean sites which feature different language versions hosted in those three countries. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:16, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah. But what if your dad is in Iran, ordering from his favorite liquor store via the internet? Iran may have limited control over the store, but it can do something about the common carriers, ISPs, and other things inbetween your dad and the store. Oh, and your dad.--Tznkai (talk) 23:41, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

And I thought WP was strict about BLP's? Wow. Doc talk 22:52, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I know that en.wiki can't stop the law. I reported a fact, maybe you en.wikipedian admins can report it on the main page whit a little ad on the top. By this way you can help us!!! Thanks=)--93.71.82.213 (talk) 22:54, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll just leave this here.... —Jeremy v^_^v ^{Components:V S M} 22:57, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Side notes: If passed, I think that that law will die under it's own weight/impossibility. But I imagine that Wikipedia already violates North Korean and Myanmar law by merely existing etc.North8000 (talk) 22:59, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

And there is a Burmese Wikipedia, as well, happily running. Prediction: tempest in a teacup. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:07, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The probability of Italy being able to enforce that law against Florida is roughly the same as the probability of Amanda Knox taking another trip to Italy. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:23, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

But they could enforce the law against Italian editors, who, you know, live in Italy. Buddy431 (talk) 01:37, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Maybe that's why Italian Wikipedia has (reportedly) been shut down by Wikimedia, to protect them from themselves. I just wonder... when did Italy suddenly become China? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:40, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Well at least Italy is hemorrhaging people like crazy so there won't be any Italians in Italy for this law to restrict (after seventy years). On a more serious note, Buddy is right that even though the servers might be in our 'Murica, that doesn't mean that local laws do not apply to Wikipedians in that country. I do hope that this law falls flat and liberty prevails in your fair country my good sir. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 01:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The news are somewhat disturbing, but what do you realistically expect us to do? Conquer Italy and change its laws? I think all Wikipedias are located in Florida, so the Italian law has no real effect on the Italian Wikipedia, except for the self-imposed lock-down that its administrators decided, which you can read about in the article I linked to and in the Italian press if you the language skills. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 08:05, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The laws will change again eventually.[54] Doc talk 08:10, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the protest measure taken by Italian Wikipedia administrators (blank and protect all pages) will be well received by the Wikimedia Foundation, but that's something to be discussed with them, and on Meta if you care enough about the issue. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 08:11, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Regarding enforcing the law against Italian editors, as summarized, the mechanics of what the law dictates is that the web site must make a change when there is an allegation. So the "offense" would be "failure to make the change". Since every Italian could make the change, if they tried instead going after the editors, they would need to arrest the entire Italian population for failure to make the change, including the people who wrote the law. North8000 (talk) 08:16, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Ludwigs2, User:HiLo48, User:Tznkai and Talk:Pregnancy.

I have edited pregnancy in the past, and opined repeatedly on images in the article. While reviewing the talk page, I saw that there was a request for an uninvolved administrator to close an rfc, and further there was some... unproductive discussion going on. So I yelled at the two culprits that seemed obviously at fault. This turns out to have been a mistake and the conflict wandered onto my own talk page. As far as I can tell, the overall problem is:

• The pregnancy image is divisive, and has become for a proxy contest about Censorship!!!!
• RfC is a process that invites conflict
• HiLo48 has been kind of a dick to Ludwigs2
• Ludwigs2 has decided that gives Ludgwigs2 license to hat posts that are, in Ludwigs2's opinion, unhelpful, and will not be dissuaded from this.
• Their fight has managed to frustrate me to the point where I want to indef them both and melt the servers.

So, since I'm obviously incapable of handling this myself, I'd like some help, to sort out who needs blocks, trouts, or other solutions as necessary, including myself.--Tznkai (talk) 23:20, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Forgot to notify at the time I posted, did so here and here, adding myself to thread title.--Tznkai (talk) 23:50, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Not censored vs. No gratuitous images, just like in the Rfc and completely off topic HERE
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Just one comment: WP:NOTCENSORED. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:56, 4 October 2011 (UTC) I think Tzn's looking for something a little more... helpful. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 00:05, 5 October 2011 (UTC) {ec}But this is gratuitous nudity. The picture of the human penis passes muster because that's what the article's about. An article about pregnancy has no reason to put a photograph of a totally nude woman right at the top of the article. Yopienso (talk) 00:10, 5 October 2011 (UTC) Honest to goodness, if this thread causes a fight about Censorship!!!111 on ANI I will find a way to melt the servers down.--Tznkai (talk) 00:13, 5 October 2011 (UTC) Be aware of the NLT rule. (No Liquidation Threats). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC) The photo is beautiful, very tame by internet standards, and actually shows what a pregnant woman looks like. Educational, not gratuitous. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:17, 5 October 2011 (UTC) You mean it shows what a nude pregnant woman looks like, right? And that seems to be kind of their point. What does being naked have to do with pregnancy? Niteshift36 (talk) 00:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(EC)Ok, this is NOT the place to re-fight the Rfc. Seriously. ANI is NOT for content disputes, so please both of you (and anyone else who is tempted) take all that stuff to the talk page of the article. Tzn has asked for admin assistance with editor behavior problems; if you can help, do so. If you cannot, then fine, but do NOT re-ignite the argument here on ANI. Puppy has spoken, puppy is done. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 00:16, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Whoops, sorry. I missed the point. Yopienso (talk) 00:34, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, all I can say is that while I will happily trout myself for my behavior on large portions of that page (I despise losing my temper like that), I wouldn't do so for the {{hat}}tings and {{nono}}s. I was very careful only to obscure comments that were unnecessary and insulting (such as being called unwise, unproductive, or other such comments directed at me as a person), and did it primarily so that I wouldn't feel the need to challenge them, which would only serve to create more conflict. It seems a small enough price to pay for peace on the page, though I understand the frustration of not being able to get one's licks in. In fact, I opened a question on this over on wp:AN just before this notice was posted, because it would make my life (and everyone's lives) a lot nicer if this were an accepted practice. --Ludwigs2 00:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the latest personal attack and left a general warning, naming the last two offenders (the one who made the attack and the one who edit warred to restore it.) Hopefully they'll take my advice for a nice cuppa tea and come back more civil. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 00:32, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh and Ludwigs; Stick to talking about the article from here on. I'm not asking you to be the poster child for AGF but I am expecting you to follow TPG. Please post a diff here immediately if anyone else starts making remarks about other editors. Do not reply; do not engage; do not hat. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 01:05, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Fringe Board Hanger

Resolved

 – Nothing to do here

Check the wikipedia fringe board. This is all the same guy:

• 86.176.222.119
• 86.182.19.180
• 86.177.230.221
• 86.182.191.108
• 86.178.192.40
• 86.182.20.197
• 86.184.85.227
• 86.178.193.2

Hes joined wikipedia to only hang around the wikipedia fringe board calling people "crackpots" and going onto articles calling specific articles he doesn't like "utter crankery" etc then deleting valid references he doesnt agree with, not constructive at all, hes come onto wikipedia to delete articles and bully other users, he has never added anything to wikipedia. Hes also got many other IP accounts atleast another 16 of them check the Wikipedia Fringe Board, some of which he pretends to be a different user, from his posts it even looks like hes talking to himself, he posts on the Fringe board everyday. Clearly a troll account, not constructive, hes also been deleting valid references and lieing about whats in them. 212.219.63.252 (talk) 23:42, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

How would you describe this edit, or this one. Could you provide some diffs (click here to see how) to show exactly what you're talking about? Ian.thomson (talk) 23:52, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Hmmmm. It seems to me that the IP you're reporting (86...) has been fairly constructive in identifying and improving articles which are woefully poorly sourced or outright crankery. I don't see any evidence that he's pretended to be anything other than one user with a dynamic IP, although I'm open to seeing evidence to the contrary.

Curiously, though, when I glance at Special:Contributions/212.219.63.252, I see the original poster removing an apparently reasonable source from a university press and disagreeing with 86... at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stuart Pivar. It looks like you don't agree with this editor on a content matter and are reporting him here as a "troll" and sockpuppeteer (sans any actual evidence) in hopes of getting him sanctioned. I hope that's a mistaken impression. MastCell ^Talk 00:02, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I think the OP is going to want this closed before it WP:Boomerangs back on him. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:05, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Sucks to be him, then, eh? Looks to me like the Anon-of-many-numbers is making very helpful edits. I'm waiting to hear 212.219.63.252's explanation, see diffs, etc. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 00:07, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Pot, I'd like to introduce you to WP:KETTLE. VanIsaac_WS^contribs 01:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Closing this; no admin action is going to be taken. Black Kite (t) (c) 06:14, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

If I was an admin I would block this troll Special:Contributions/212.219.63.252 for 31 hours, he just posted a link to hivemind on Jimmy's bio talkpage and has now gone of attacking dougweller on another talkpage. Off2riorob (talk) 17:37, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Quick request re banned user

A banned user (WP:UNID) has created John low iq (talk · contribs). Would someone please block the latter as an attack on my admittedly weak user name. The banned user just needs WP:RBI although checking 165.228.176.170 in a few hours would be good. Johnuniq (talk) 03:20, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Blocked User:John low iq as it's an obvious attack account. Probably a one-off, anyway. I've left talk page and email enabled; if this isn't right, feel free to revoke access. I'll keep an eye on the IP for a bit, just in case. Cheers. lifebaka++ 03:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I hadn't thought about email/talk, but now you mention it, please revoke email access because the banned user is known to have abused email in the past. Johnuniq (talk) 03:51, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Done. I'm not certain it's necessary to blacklist the site he was using, as the likelihood that it gets added to other articles is low; it'd stick out like a sore thumb elsewhere. I'd put money on the autoblock taking out 165.228.176.170 for the next day or so, and I've added The Queensland Party to my watchlist, just in case. Cheers. lifebaka++ 04:14, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The account (as well as several others) are  Confirmed as Universe Daily (talk · contribs).  IP blocked. –MuZemike 05:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

EW at astrology

Resolved

I'm only taking this here because we have an editor who is edit warring very quickly at Astrology and it's getting seriously annoying. I've filed a 3RR report here, and though I have him at 6RR 8rr there, he's actually done quite a few more reverts with this and other edits. Refuses to discuss on the talk page and just keeps going at it. Can we get a bit of admin attention? Thank you. N^oformation ^Talk 04:59, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

This account is likely a throwaway sockpuppet so it hardly matters if it's blocked. (I could be wrong, because when a new editor's first two edits are to trivially bluelink their user and talk pages and they immediately display a high degree of proficiency with markup and Wiki-jargon, it's such a promising sign for the future.) The more important point is that Astrology could use many more people looking at it, both admins and ordinary editors. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 12:34, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Edward Davenport (criminal)

In light of the conviction and jailing today of English businessman Edward Davenport on charges of fraud, the page at Edward Davenport (property developer) has so far moved thrice, and is now subject to high levels of anon editting. Kittybrewster moved the page first to Edward Daenport (fraudster) and then to Edward Davenport (fraudster). Following application of a title POV tag and discussion on the articles talkpage by Yunshui, I moved the article to Edward Davenport (businessman). User Kittybrewster then moved it again to its current title Edward Davenport (criminal), to which I have applied a title-POV tag. I am sure that other news stories and hence reliable sources will now appear over the next few days/weeks, but at present on balance of the facts and sources to hand, one act of reported fraud seems not to be reflected in the current title. Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 14:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I have to say that I dont think anyone should have moved the article either way without a serious and extended discussion. WP:BLP applies. The current title fails WP:POVTITLE as it stands. But lets just have a discussion before making the move. Fmph (talk) 14:23, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I think it should be moved back to its original location, where it should be semi protected and indef move-protected; and the redirects Edward Davenport (fraudster) and Edward Davenport (criminal) be deleted. (Edward Daenport (fraudster) is clearly a typo, I speedy deleted it as such). עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 14:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

BLP only requires that things are well sourced, it does not say that negative point of view things cannot be said about a person.--Crossmr (talk) 14:39, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

have another read of WP:BLPSTYLE why don't you. And WP:POVTITLE. Fmph (talk) 14:45, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I think WP:TITLECHANGES trumps WP:POVTITLE. Changing an article title simply to foment controversy is bad juju. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 14:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the news article, "(businessman)" also seems to fail POVTITLE to me. Not saying what the right answer is, but I think "don't describe someone negatively in an article title" may be over-simplistic. We have "Charles Bronson (prisoner), for example. What about solving the issue by researching the subjects full name? --FormerIP (talk) 15:10, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The disambiguation page shows four articles bearing the name "Edward Davenport", with this particular person referenced as a "property developer". And researching the full name won't address the recentism of the controversy. As a sidenote, I tried moving it back to "(developer)" myself, but ran into problems, most likely because of pre-existing material at the target. I don't have a lot of experience at page moves, but based on what I came across it'll probably need admin action, if the move back to the original target is what WP:CONSENSUS determines is needed. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 15:14, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

As a sidenote, a discussion is ongoing on the article Talk page as to what the correct article title should be. I think we can put the ANI discussion on hold until consensus is reached there. It still may need admin assistance to complete a move, should one be needed, but that's in the future. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 15:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Pro se litigants

• Former pro se 2 (talk · contribs),
• Hopeless2011 (talk · contribs), and long-banned editor
• Kay Sieverding (talk · contribs)

are all making the same comments in regard Pro se legal representation in the United States. I don't have time to put together a formal sockpuppet report, being on my laptop at the moment. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:20, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Quack, quack. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:33, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Non-banned editors warned. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The references were actually quoted as well as linked and are newspaper articles, 10th Circuit opinions published on their website, property tax rolls, and city council minutes. Arthur Rubin has repeatedly deleted similar postings while never once offering any detail as to how or why they might be inaccurate. His purpose appears to be to control the content of the article. That is contrary to the stated purpose and guidelines of Wikipedia. Former pro se 2 (talk) 16:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Again? This has been going for quite a while (at least since 2008). See much of the discussion in the pro se article talk page archive 4. Absolutely NO QUESTION this is Kay back to try again. WP is not a personal soapbox to right great wrongs. Ravensfire (talk) 17:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Kay Sieverding opened. Ravensfire (talk) 17:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Might not be a bad idea to enact a community ban to make it easier to block and revert further socks. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 18:47, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Personal attacks by Yworo

Yworo (talk · contribs) has been editing for over two years, so he's a regular. He certainly should be aware that personal attacks are both unnecessary and destructive to Wikipedia. In a recent discussion on my talk page in which he and I were expressing our opinions about what is considered an acceptable source, he twice (and completely unprovoked) referred to my opinions as "stupid arguments"; see [55]. Now, should he make the argument that he referred to the "argument" (rather than the editor) as stupid, that certainly is splitting hairs. In looking through Yworo's edit history, I don't believe this is the first time he has had an abrasive style in dealing with editors who disagree with him, especially inexperienced editors, the very ones he should avoid even giving the appearance of a personal attack. I hope an admin or someone will have a word with him about this hostile style of discussing issues. I have notified Yworo that I started this thread. Thanks. Irolnire (talk) 16:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

If he said you were stupid, that would be a personal attack. Calling an argument stupid isn't saying you are stupid anymore than saying an argument is invalid is calling you invalid. N^oformation ^Talk 18:37, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It is, however, uncivil to call an agrument stupid. 134.241.58.153 (talk) 20:54, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

i agree, pull up your big girl panties and move on, on a separate note, yrowo has been around for awhile, once he tried to ban me and he is a stupid dummie. Darkstar1st (talk) 21:00, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

...and actually doing a violation of WP:NPA in a discussion about someone else's WP:NPA was not the wisest move ever (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Bwilkins blocked Darkstar for that remark. Am I the only one who thinks Darkstar was just trying to be funny? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 21:20, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

As Steven J. Anderson noted, Darkstar1st was obviously "just trying to be funny". Time to step away from the keyboard, Bwilkins. Deterence ^Talk 21:26, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Deterence, you'll need to do your research before even contemplating posting on this board. Indeed, a quick glance at this history between Darkstar and Yworo shows that Darkstar a) has a history with the user and therefore b) was clearly not trying to be funny (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with Noformaition, and I suspect I'm not alone. Let me extend your line of reasoning to illustrate my point. If you expressed an opinion on a talk page, and my response was "Noformation, that comment you just wrote is the lamest, most moronic, drivel I have ever read", most people would interpret that as a personal attack. Twice telling someone to "stop making stupid arguments and just follow the rules" is exactly the same thing, just not stated quite as boldly. Imagine if every new editor were to be flooded with comments such as "Stop making stupid arguments" or "Stop making such idiotic statements", how would most newcomers take that? Suppose my response to Yworo had been, "Stop expressing yourself like a whiny two-year-old with such insipid nonsense"; would you encourage me to make such response? How long do you think I would continue those sort of comments on multiple talk pages before I got blocked? As I said above, hiding behind the defense that "I said the argument is stupid" is a very thinly veiled legalistic way to attack someone mercilessly and endlessly and then pretend that you're being perfectly civil. Note that I'm not saying that Yworo made a threat, or that he violated any policies other than those pertaining to civility and personal attacks. And I'm not saying that there should be any consequences for his personal attacks beyond someone reminding him that we have policies about civility. You are wikilawyering to an extreme, and if everyone approached civil discussion that way, Wikipedia would quickly descend into a chaotic mess in which WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA are nothing more than empty platitudes that in reality have no substance. I don't think that lowest level of interpretation of civility is what has been intended in these policies. Irolnire (talk) 21:07, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• If I describe this notification as the petty nonsense it so clearly is, am I also guilty of making "personal attacks"? Deterence ^Talk 21:29, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I strongly agree with Noformation and I know I'm not alone. On the other hand, Irolnire, if you're right about not being alone, that will be established when someone posts here saying they agree with you.

In other news, I notice, Irolnire, that your first two edits were trivial edits to bluelink your talk and user pages, your third was to comment at a deletion discussion, and you found your way to this drama board in less than 20 edits. Now, please, please, please don't take this as a personal attack (please?), but I'm just sort of wondering if you perhaps have gained some experience editing Wikipedia as an IP or even (heaven forfend) using another account that, oh, I don't know, you hadn't used in a while and had, um, forgotten the password to. And maybe it just didn't occur to you to mention this. But I'm not accusing you of anything remotely dishonest or deceptive. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 21:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

No, not at all; I don't take any of your comments as personal attacks or accusations, and you ask reasonable questions. Like many people, I read Wikipedia for a couple of years before attempting an edit. I edited anonymously for a few months, mostly minor cleanup. And I recently registered (as I was strongly encouraged to do so). I've never tried to hide this. But to a large extent, how I got here to this board is beside the point. If I had registered 10 years ago or yesterday, the issues would be the same: civility and personal attacks. And by the way, a comment or two in this section may not have used the phrase "I agree with Irolnire", but I think some senitment about comments such as Yworo's being uncivil has been expressed. In any event, you're right. I think we should see if other opinions are expressed. My only goal was to get this out in the open and let Yworo know about it so that he can know what others think. Irolnire (talk) 21:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Stalking ?

Hello, I have a strange problem. I had the "luck" to become new obsession for User:Stubes99. It is about this edit [56], he even went to the trouble of making 2 youtube accounts and a video. Is there anything there can be done against this kind of attacks? Adrian (talk) 17:12, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Wow, that's.....disturbing to say the least. Wildthing61476 (talk) 17:29, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Yep. :) Adrian (talk) 17:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Just noticed he sent this to others as well. [57]. Adrian (talk) 17:34, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Interesting vid. Could anybody check its content? Because Somebody deleted it immediately from my talkpage. Fakirbakir (talk) 17:45, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I don`t want to be rude, but are you serious? Adrian (talk) 17:53, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Also , can you please stop advertising this "video" and youtube account? Adrian (talk) 17:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, You know the banned User:Iaaasi (alias Samiraj, Keeeeper, Bizovne etc..) is a very clever user.Fakirbakir (talk) 17:58, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I don`t know what are you trying to do, but looks like Stubes99 managed to fulfill at least a part of his task. NP, If necessary, I will submit to check user to remove your doubts about me... I don`t know about your knowledge about e-mail addresses, but anyone could have wrote that e-mail, and even if the real Iassii wrote it how does that concern me? For an example I could write an email to Iasii saying you are my puppet and make a youtube video. Does that mean anything? Even if that is the reall Iasii e-mail, how can I be responsable what does somebody else write about me? Or next time if an gmail account appear with my username should we take that as real too? Adrian (talk) 18:05, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, Why did you delete my text here? You do not have to worry about this vid if you are 'innocence'.Fakirbakir (talk) 18:16, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I have deleted youtube video because it is stalking and personal attack on me. It looks like you are block shopping therefore I don`t want to add anymore significance by pursuing this conversation further. Please stop with personal attacks (implying that all this is for real, and that I am a sock/meat puppet) and if you have any doubt about me please submit an SPI case or an ANI report. Greetings. Adrian (talk) 18:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I have no idea what's going on here but a basically incomprehensible message just appeared at WP:COIN regarding this situation. See here. OlYeller^Talktome 19:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

User:Stubes99 is bored... Let him have his fun :). Adrian (talk) 19:33, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

One thing is sure, User:Iaaasi's email address is correct on the vid. [58] and the message was from User:Iaaasi to Stubes99. Fakirbakir (talk) 19:45, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Assuming that the claim of the email address was legitimately from the Iaaasi on en (I don't know enough about the history to know the details) - there are three possibilities: (a) The email account is controlled by Iadrian yu, and legitimately makes a sock/meat connection (b) The email account is controlled by Stubes99 (a known sockpuppeteer), and was sent to a secondary email account of theirs so as to allow them to make false claims against someone with whom they have a dispute (c) The email account is not controlled by either person in that dispute - and is Iaaasi trying to cause disruption by making false claims. The video itself does not prove conclusively one way or another towards any of those three options.

Unless a connection can be made via WP:SPI or at the very least WP:The duck test, there's nothing that can be done here - as we don't know at this point which party actually controls the email account. Besides which, YouTube isn't a WP:RS for most article content, and certainly not for blocking. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

If he'd spent as much time sayyyyy...getting a university degree...just think what good could happen. Instead, immature videos and attacks. What a waste. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 19:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Improper category inclusion

عمرو بن كلثوم persistently adds category Racism to Meir Kahane article: [59], [60], [61], [62]. I've pointed out to him or her that the inclusion is improper and that the category page itself warns, in bold, "This category is for issues relating to racism. It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly racist", but my appeal was disregarded. Please take measures. --Vicky Ng (talk) 17:26, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• P.S. This user has been warned regarding edit-warring involving the same article a year ago: User talk:عمرو بن كلثوم#October 2010. --Vicky Ng (talk) 17:30, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Looks like a slow-burn edit war to me. Starting on 27 September, one reversion a day (skipping a day here and there), always restoring the deleted category. It may not bust WP:3RR, but I don't think there's any question as to the intent. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 18:04, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Warned. One more revert would be blockable, IMHO.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Jesus, get a load of that user page. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 19:38, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Request for Rev-Del on a COIN report

I'm really not sure what the backstory is on this, but an IP user has made a COIN report with a You-tube link that is, I believe, an attempt to "out" another account's RL identity. Request rev-del. Don't want to link the vid here, but it's the newest report at WP:COIN. Thanks The Interior (Talk) 19:30, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

This times in with the Stalking? section above. Wildthing61476 (talk) 19:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

That's done (I was already on it). But err... check the big red box before adding requests for revdel here again. SmartSE (talk) 20:07, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Noted. My bad. The Interior (Talk) 20:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

ClaudioSantos violates topic ban??

According to the list op Topic Bans ClaudioSantos (talk · contribs) has a topic ban for al Euthanasia-related articles. As stated on the mentioned page: "ClaudioSantos is topic banned by the Wikipedia community from Euthanasia and related topics, broadly construed,...". Knowing his habit of connecting the nazi atrocities with eugenetics and euthanasia, I was wondering if he crossed the line. The contested sentence is Although it was not the ideology underlying Nazi atrocities that Sanger found regrettable, it was the methodology.. Violation or not? Night of the Big Wind _talk 20:48, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I edited the section "Eugenics" at "Margaret Sanger" article, and that paragraph does deal explicity with "nazi eugenics" not with euthanasia. And clearly my edit and the cited source was referring to "Nazi eugenics" related to "Margaret Sanger" and my edit did not relate nor even mentioned at all euthanasia. And this issue has been discussed and resolved already 3 times, here at the ANI and at one admin-talk-page. And all the times it was concluded that editing eugenics topics is not a violation of the euthanasia topic ban. This user NotBW certainly know this as he has been directly involved. I think he is abusing the ANI and stalking me. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 21:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Aha, there is the traditional smoke screen and counter accusation. But, my dear Claudio, you are referring to earlier questions in relation to other articles. And here you clearly make the connection nazi atrocities vs. eugenetics movement. Night of the Big Wind _talk 21:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• ClaudioSantos (talk · contribs) has six prior blocks for edit-warring, several of which stem from his relentless efforts to link Planned Parenthood to Nazism and eugenics by any means necessary. He was unblocked early last time because he supposedly understood the error of his ways. Now he's moved on to edit-warring at Margaret Sanger (the founder of Planned Parenthood), pushing the exact same agenda.

  Obviously he's repeatedly trying to force in contentious material and earned a number of blocks, but he's still at it, still refusing to gain consensus on the talk page. How long does this go on? (That is not a rhetorical question - it is addressed to any uninvolved admin reviewing this thread). MastCell ^Talk 21:26, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

MastCell is another user who has been involved in this attempts to look for an excuse to ban me. My last edit at Margaret Sanger has not violated the 1RR and the prior cases are NOT the case now. Actually my edit was reverted 1 time by NotBW arguing that "he does not believe that I have read the source"; thus clearly baseless assuming bad faith due my edit was almost literally taken from a source which was already accepted as a reliable source for that article. Now, NotBW is trying to abuse the topic ban to enforce a broad ban against me, as it has been attempted 3 times up to now. If it was a content dispute at any rate MasterCell did not even complaint about the phrase but he just came first here also to attempt to enforce a ban against me. And MaterCell was also involved in the prior attempts to extend the euthanasia topic ban to the eugenic topic. So it seems MasterCell is always looking for any excuse to try to resolve the dispute contents by forcing punishments and bans against me. Is he stalking me also?. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 21:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Knowing your POV-pushing and creativity with the truth, I still do not think I was overly distrustful to you. Night of the Big Wind _talk 21:51, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I must admit that the sentence is really there in the source. But crucially, the context is totally different. Night of the Big Wind _talk 21:59, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, this guy edits dishonestly and in bad faith, and has problems understanding written English that severely undermine his ability to edit effectively. Worse, he seems uninterested in improving himself in this regard. When challenged on any of the above, he reacts with hostility and claims of persecution, and rarely sees fit to discuss the actual substance of a dispute.

Take this for what you will; I am apparently risking a permanent ban from Wikipedia just by saying this, as you can see from my talk page. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 22:27, 5 October 2011 (UTC)