User talk:WGFinley

Feel free to use this page to reach me. If you are in need of more personal, private, or immediate assistance, feel free to email me. Thanks!.

The most valuable of all talents is that of never using two words when one will do.

— Thomas Jefferson

Making WP:Mediation meaningful

Please consider how you might assist Feezo, who you will know is the mediator at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Senkaku Islands.

As context, please scan "Hands off" mediation plan.

Mediation involves conflated issues, but wider community intervention is needed in order to help, support and encourage Feezo so that we may reach those issues. --Tenmei (talk) 18:41, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm hesitant to wade into this at this time. MedCom is discussing this case per the request made, we should have something shortly. --WGFinley (talk) 02:47, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

This was not an invitation to "wade in" -- no.

My purpose was more subtle, more indirect. In posting this note on your talk page (and on the pages of your mediator colleagues), it was a good guess that your "back channel" comments might bolster Feezo's resolve, patience and flexibility.

Also, I thought it very likely that Bobthefish2 would closely follow my edits. If so, he would notice the sequence of diffs posted on mediator talk pages; and the cumulative effect of my carefully mild words might cause him pause.

My guess is that this gesture achieved no discernible goal. At best, these were a small things. These small "nudges" represented the extent of my ability to affect the momentum of things spinning out of control.

I adopt Feezo's argument that "mediation requires honesty, but also a willingness to engage." This small strategy demonstrates both honesty and willingness and an investment in speculating about the probable consequences of a few words. --Tenmei (talk) 03:30, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

The MedCom mailing list is no secret, it helps coordinate the assignment of cases, manage caseload and handle requests such as those made in this case. It's not something I would reply to individually at this point as it's under review. --WGFinley (talk) 05:55, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Whisperback

Hello. You have a new message at The_Artist_AKA_Mr_Anonymous‎'s talk page.

Nableezy AE case

I'm sorry, but I must strongly disagree with some of your comments in this case. Nableezy made one revert, of two for the show. He then came up with a compromise edit which eliminated, or should have eliminated, the source of friction, by simply substituting "Israeli occupied territories" in place of the disputed list of territories. That was a good solution in my view, and the dispute should have ended there, except that an IP (since blocked), clearly bent on harassment of Nableezy, then began reverting him.

Quite frankly I am getting extremely tired of seeing admins in effect enabling disruptive users by rewarding them with blocks and bans of the opponents they set out to harass. There is no moral equivalence here. Users are entitled to edit pages responsibly without fear of sanction. Gatoclass (talk) 04:05, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

This is pretty simple, follow along.

1. Two for the show did the 4th revert which brought it back to the status quo it had been for 5+ months and asked for the warring to stop and to discuss building a consensus. [1]
2. Nableezy appears to think that is The Wrong Version and reverts [2] = bad.
3. He does explain on the talk page.[3]= good. But he had already reverted which makes his claim of seeking consensus appear less than genuine. He ignored the call for discussion and consensus in favor of restoring his own preferred version.

This is the essence of P-I edit wars and as anyone who edits in P-I knows your actions are subject to sanction if you can't edit harmoniously. Nableezy has repeatedly been subject to sanction for tendentious editing in the P-I space, this is nothing new or invented on my part. --WGFinley (talk) 04:27, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

There was a brief edit war over this issue back in June; Nableezy wasn't involved. Sean Hoyland triggered it again a few days ago when he added an article about murdered Israeli settlers to the category and adjusted the definition accordingly. Two for the show reverted, calling for consensus. Nableezy reverted him, leaving a message on the talk page as to his reasons. Brewcrewer then reverted Nableezy, and Nableezy swiftly came up with a compromise edit. He did not "restore his own preferred version", he came up with a fresh solution which he obviously hoped would resolve the dispute quickly, and which indeed seems to have stuck.

This is no more than standard BRD, and there is no reason to suppose the debate would not have ended there with no drama at all had not the IP turned up to continue his campaign of harassment against Nableezy. It's precisely what I meant when I said that users have a right to edit responsibly without having to constantly look over their shoulder for fear of sanction.

As far as the charge of "tendentious editing" on Nableezy's part, I don't recall any such cases against Nableezy, all those I have seen have been about either technical breaches of the rules or incivility. AFAIK there have been no successful cases against Nableezy for adding substandard or biased content, ie tendentiousness. On the contrary, every time Nableezy has taken a longstanding dispute to the wider community, his position has been endorsed and that of his opponents rejected. That ought to tell you something about who is contributing positively to the topic area and who is not. Gatoclass (talk) 05:02, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Further_remedies -> search page "Nableezy" -> grok to the fullness of Nableezy's TE affliction. I'm not saying he's the sole person at fault here, there's some blame to go around but Nableezy is always in the fray and can't seem to stay away from JJG no matter how many interaction and topic bans they get. --WGFinley (talk) 05:43, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but Nableezy's past history of sanctions only confirms my view that he has not previously been banned for tendentious (ie biased) editing. His sanctions are virtually all over technical breaches like 1RR and occasionally, incivility. It's also worth noting that most of his opponents have eventually been banned for tendentious, or biased, editing. Nableezy generally edits in accordance with core policy, while it's been demonstrated repeatedly that those who have dragged him to AE either could not or would not do the same. Gatoclass (talk) 06:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Read closer, I can also see your arguments haven't changed in a year. [4] --WGFinley (talk) 06:20, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

My arguments haven't changed because the facts haven't changed. However, I see I'm wasting my time here, so I won't trouble you any further. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 07:05, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

You're correct, if you can't see he's the owner of:

P-I Related Topic Bans

1. Oct 2009
2. Jan 2010
3. Apr 2010
4. Jul 2010
5. Aug 2010
6. Dec 2010
7. May 2011

Interaction Bans

1. Shuki Jul 2010
2. Jaakobou Nov 2010
3. Cptnono Dec 2010

# JJG Feb 2011

1. Cptnono Jun 2011

and four related blocks and that's not from TE? We truly don't have any more to discuss because that could well be the definition of WP:TE. He's had numerous chances to remediate his behavior in the topic space and doesn't appear to have any intention to do so. --WGFinley (talk) 18:42, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

You simply do not know what you are talking about. I have never had an interactoin ban with either Shuki or Jiujitsuguy, and the Jun 2011 interaction ban was placed at my request. The Jan 2010 topic ban was lifted on appeal. The May 2011 ban was replaced with a revert restriction. And each of the bans were on issues with reverts, not tendentious editing. Being an admin is more than counting on your fingers how many times you can find a username in a sanctions log. Finally, I would like to ask you a question. Were you contacted off-wiki by Jiujitsuguy? nableezy - 20:38, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

The fact that you don't see reverts as a symptom of tendentious editing is a large part of your problem working on the project. And no, I wasn't contacted by JJG, the Cubs have a new manager and his page was being vandalized so I checked back in. Feel free to analyze my edits though I'm sure you already have, it's far easier for you to project deviant behavior on me than take responsibility for your own behavior. --WGFinley (talk) 00:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Also my apologies for saying you had an interaction ban with JJG, I read that entry wrong. However, saying your situation with Shuki wasn't an interaction ban may technically be correct but it's splitting hairs. --WGFinley (talk) 01:00, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Arbcom

I think maybe you are a bit confused. Most of the diffs Jordgette mentioned, as I noted on the ArbCom page, were from the week-long block. Even then, I explained my reasoning for all of those changes before the block (mainly that I was moving the information to another article and leaving a summary in the building 7 article). If you want a concise explanation for why I do not think the block was correct see here: User talk:The Devil's Advocate#Response. Those edits after the block have all been explained on the article talk page (in very short paragraphs just so you know), or in the ArbCom.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Some diffs of me explaining the post-block edits to help you out: [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 07:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Reposting what you wrote on the AE page isn't abundantly helpful. --WGFinley (talk) 18:43, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

You said it was "too long didn't read" So I figured I'd point to each relevant paragraph to make it easier for you to read, as well as pointing to where I address all of the diffs mentioned(I also included two paragraphs from the article talk page and my position on the pre-block edits).--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:04, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Here is a much more concise diff of me addressing the post-block changes: [10].--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:22, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Chopping it into bits doesn't make it shorter. Stay on topic and away from grandiose rationalization of what you did. Why didn't you work with others to fork that part or discuss your changes? --WGFinley (talk) 00:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

As I said, my move of information and consequent shortening of the collapse section in the building 7 article was before the block. However, even then, as I have said, I did discuss it. Immediately after the first effort at shortening I started a section on the talk page. As for the edits after the block expired, would two paragraphs be short enough? The last diff I gave and the third diff I provided in this section of your talk page covers those post-block changes.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

For most of the articles on Wikipedia your actions would be pretty standard, be bold make some big changes and see what others think. You can't apply that logic to a testy subject like 9/11. If you had been editing that page for a while you would know the constant battleground that exists with the conspiracy theories, etc. What others tried to encourage you to do is to discuss first and then edit. Make some concise points and get to what you think could be improved on the talk page, always propose forks (there's a template to do it) and let it stay up there for a several days (biggest mistake many make, they act like everyone edits WP daily, they don't) and then see what happens. If you showed some contrition and misunderstanding instead of protracted denials it would go a lot better for you. --WGFinley (talk) 06:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)