User talk:JJay

Warning: Due to excessive wiki-stalking, messages should not be left on this page unless absolutely necessary and until further notice. Please use Email or article talk pages. Note that pages mentioned here are often nominated very rapidly for deletion or otherwise targeted for removal. Messages may therefore be edited for content or removed.

Offended

I am offended by your make it into high school comment in the Jose of the Future deletion page. I am going to pblish this book soon enough. As for you: tell me why you did this at User Talk: FE411.

Speedy tag

The article Woburn Gifted clearly does not fall under the description "it is an article about a real person that does not assert the importance or significance of the subject," with which you tagged it. It is an article about a school department. Please be more considerate with your use of these tags. But welcome to Wikipedia and good luck. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:11, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

• In this case there was a convenient solution; redirect without merge to the school in question, Woburn Collegiate Institute, an article which in fact has info on this gifted program. This effectively destroys the bad content without needing recourse to AFD. I watched the page to ensure that the vandals do not undo the redirect. Christopher Parham (talk) 21:18, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Boltfish

Copyright issues are tricky. As per my comment on the deletion page- The label may be non-profit, but the boltfish site clearly asserts copyright (scroll to bottom of page) and has the same text as Wiki article [[1]] --JJay 23:17, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree it's a copyvio (and have marked it as such), it's just that for some reason the copyvio speedy criterion only applies to material copied from the website of a commercial content provider. --fvw* 23:25, 14 October 2005

(UTC)

AfD

Hey there! Thanks for helping out with creating AfDs. The one you made for Pandilla Graphica seems to refer to a nonexistent article. Which article was it that you wanted to set the AfD for? --HappyCamper 00:30, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

The Mohican

Hey, thanks for working on RC Patrol to catch copyvios. You might also want to consider plinking the uploading user's page with {{nothanks-sd}}. I went ahead and used it on the anon's page. It's not a huge deal, I only just used it for the first time on the anon that uploaded that article, but I'd like to encourage other users to consider using it as well, just to help spread the gospel of trying to avoid copyright infringements. Keep up the good work! Ëvilphoenix ^Burn! 06:23, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Barnstar

...for extensive work on VFD. Molotov (talk)
23:45, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Je suis désolé vous n'ayez pas été d'accord avec moi sur le VfD, j'espériez que vous comprenez mon français. Note that I don't speak French. Molotov (talk)
20:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

That's true, how was my French? I imagine pretty bad because I don't speak any Molotov (talk)
21:04, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Your French?. C'est magnifique! --JJay 21:16, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

The full quote is C'est magnifique, mais c'ne'pas le guerre / C'est magnifique, mais c'ne'pas la gare, both of which are actually criticisms. [depending on which version is referred to]. --Victim of signature fascism 15:53, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Really...it was all done at the electronic translation services, I personally speak Spanish and Portugues...pero no hablo cualquier palabra en francés, pues...adios. Molotov (talk)
21:19, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks

thanks for reverting the vandalism on my user page. At least we can't deny the guy/girl's got perseverance. DocendoDiscimus 17:44, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The Justin Frank article, and the appearance that JM and I are engaged in a flame war

I am sorry it looks like a flame war. I am trying my best to continue to keep my responses to JM as civil as possible, under the circumstances. I know they have accused me of calling them names. The record shows, however, this is untrue.

I have suggested that their edits, and attempts to subvert wiki procedures, give the strong appearance of bad faith. I stand by that. I don't think I am doing the wikipedia community any good by enduring their attacks without comment.

As you can see they have been attacking me personally, my judgement, maturity, grammar, intellectual honesty. And they have been following me around, and slapping bogus {copy-vio}, {AfD}, {npov}, {disputed} tags on just about every article I touch. Or they make massive excisions, unexplained, or with bald explanations like "removing obvious bias". Believe me, it is extremely unpleasant.

I know it is unpleasant to watch a flame war. But I don't think I am flaming back.

I went through almost whole week of unpleasantness from them, misrepresentations of what I said, ignoring my attempts to reach compromise, while I continued to reply in a textbook manner of conciliation and assuming good will. Or, at least, that is how I remember it. Finally their misrepresentations on the {copy-vio} page caused me to be prepared to be more blunt. And I openly said I thought they were giving the appearance of bad faith.

JM is following me around, and every article they see me edit they consider making a target for deletion. This phase of their attacks has been going on for six days now. And my well of ability to "assume good will" on their part is pretty well exhausted. Yes, I reply to those, I reply to their bogus {npov} tags, their bogus {disputed} tags, their unexplained massive excisions. Under the circumstances I think I am as civil as anyone could reasonably expect from me. Could I be wrong about that? Sure. I won't ask you to give our exchanges a more than cursory study. But, if you do give it a more than cursory study, and still think I should be more moderate in my replies to them, please feel free to tell me.

A couple of days ago they made a series of responsible mature edits. And since they were making comments in the talk pages to draw people's attention to the responsible efforts they made I gave them some sincere praise and encouragement, to show that I could assume good will as soon as they started acting responsibly. It seems to have backfired. It seems to have just triggered a further barrage of attacks.

Rolling back Justin Frank

I didn't paste the contents of Bush on the Couch into Justin Frank. You and I started editing out the obvious malice from the Justin Frank article at the same time. You finished first, when you scaled it back to a mere stub. I finished second, with my removal of the attacking material. Do you think I should revert my edit, back to your stub, to accomodate JM?

Do you think I should roll it back to your stub in case the result of the {AfD} is a delete? I think that deletion is unlikely at this point.

But, if you really think it is well advised to scale Justin Frank back to a mere stub, I will do so.

Thanks for your removal of the personal attack. -- Geo Swan 17:44, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Indu

Just wondering, why did you move Indu to [[2]]? It seems very strange. Thelb'⁴ 16:22, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

To move an article to a different location, don't include the web address. And you can't just 'move' things from Wikipedia to Wiktionary. Wiktionary is not another namespace. It has to be deleted by a sysop, then created on Wiktionary. Thelb'⁴ 18:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Can Al-Zubair ibn Abd al-Muttalib stay

Hi, I've modified AFD:Al-Zubair with facts and references. It would be nice if you can spare some time to read it, and hopefully to reconsider its deletion (or make some comments on my talk page). -- Goldie (tell me) 22:18, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scott Feinberg

Is there any reason why you removed a comment on this page? They should be left there as part of the public record. If it was because the comment was not signed, the proper resonse would have been to add the unsigned template. --JJay 13:57, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

My apologies, shoddy editing, I did not intend to remove the comment. Rjayres 16:12, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Copyrights

Hallo JJay

Because of the articles (Iraqi Kurdistan front), (Action Party for the Independence of Kurdistan), (Conservative Party of Kurdistan), (Kurdistan National Democratic Union), (Kurdish Revolutionary Hizbullah), (Kurdistan Revolutionary Party) and (Kurdistan Socialist Democratic Party) I would like to say to them that the author John E. Pike permission given only whom John E. Pike mentioned becomes

Test

Iraqi Kurdistan Front (Kurdish: Berey Kurdistani Iraq) In 1988 the Kurdistan Democratic Party, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, the KPDP, the Kurdistan Democratic Party of Iran, and the Popular Alliance of Socialist Kurdistan together formed the Iraqi Kurdistan Front and and and and and

See also author: John E. Pike

Please again back the article (I thanks you) melat 16:35, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The author (John E. Pike) permitted only to whom its name in the article be stand you understand

JJay see Iraqi Kurdistan Front

you understand now

Hi JJay - I understand a bit of German, so I think I can help out a bit here...looks like he might want the material undeleted or something because he had permission to add it. I'll look into this further. --HappyCamper 17:06, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi HappyCamper

Die ganze zeit versuche ich JJay zur erklären das diese Artikel nur veröffentlichen darf wen der Autor des Artikel John E. Pike im Artikel stehet. ich habe gerade eine Beispiel gemacht in dem ich Iraqi Kurdistan Front veröffentlichte und gezeigt habe wo der Autor des Artikel stehen soll aber es wurde wieder gelöscht schau einfach rein. melat(UTC)

Copyright stuff

I have a feeling that none of that site's content is permissible on Wikipedia and will likely be deleted, if not by me, then by another admin. I've put in a request for Angr to take a look at it because he can speak German very well. See the bottom of his talk page for more details.

By the way, thanks for all your work with tagging copyrighted material on Wikipedia. It's a big help around here. :-) --HappyCamper 20:11, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll to my best to help ease understanding between Melat and other editors. His German isn't great either, though. Also, User:Melat is not actually a registered username; he edits under User:87.78.47.107, so I have moved User:Melat to User:87.78.47.107. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 21:16, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, and now I'm going to delete that redirect... --HappyCamper 21:24, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Marevna

Could you kindly go back and have a look at it now! It is still very basic; but perhaps restoring the "stub" tag would help. At this stage it seems a pity to lose the links, since they may help competent editors to expand the article. (Not that they themselves cannot find them, if they have the time to make a search.) Many thanks! 09:13, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Modojo

You listed this article for CSD, and it was so speedied. The discussion at WP:DRV#Modojo for 3 Nov concludes this speedy was in error: you may like to have a look at the discussion. In general you should not list an article for CSD with half an hour of its creation, and particularly not if it is receiving many edits, even if the article would otherwise qualify. --- Charles Stewart 15:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Right. All editing stopped as soon as you posted your notice. The point is (i) you should not have posted the notice, and (ii) you were probably biting a newbie. --- Charles Stewart 15:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Your comments on AFD Executive Order 12333

I take issue with this comment "Bad faith nom per Geo Swan. --JJay 15:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)" As I said over there, before (or in this case after) you accuse someone of bad faith, why not look at the article, as it existed when the AfD was made. In this case, here is the original text:

Executive Order 12333 extends the powers and responsibilities of US intelligence agencies and directs the leaders of other US federal agencies to co-operate fully with CIA requests for information.

That was it, verbaitm. Is that "encyclopedic"? While we are on the subject, please take a look at the dozens of poorly written articles that Geo Swan has put up, including the ones I have taken the time to fix. I can't keep up with him. Cleanup tags don't work. AfD's don't work. The talk page does not work. For example, please look at the before and after (my edits and his originals) on

• Clive Stafford Smith,
• Gareth Peirce,
• Joshua Colangelo-Bryan (my comments on the summaries are clearly angry and did not help the situation, but it is another example, nonetheless.)
• Abderrahman Ahmad
• Benyam Mohammed but c.f. the current version with my final version, and his original [3]

There's a lot more, but... this should be enough for now. Joaquin Murietta 16:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Please assist with Juma Mohammed Abdul Latif Al Dossary

Would you please take a look at Juma Mohammed Abdul Latif Al Dossary, at both versions and give us your considered advice. I edited the article and Geroge reverted it. I think that his version has clear spelling errors and POV issues. If you run google on the subject's name, Wikipedia] is the first entry, so I think the article should be stronger. Joaquin Murietta 16:56, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Please assist as a mediator in this dispute. Much appreciated. 209.178.165.187 18:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC) (this is me, Joaquin, I keep getting bounced off, it must be a bug or something.

Got logged back in. Well, George emails and posts to get a posse together, they vote together and generally support each other. I guess that's ok if the articles are well-written and NPOV. See for example, this mass posting, [4]. Then they follow people around and revert. 209.178.165.187 18:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)(Sorry, I keep getting bounced out, whenever I edit now. 209.178.165.187 18:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC) Joaquin 209.178.165.187 18:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

video mr pres

I have deleted The Video Surveillance of Presidents by the Justice Department. In the speedy tag and the talk page you refer to an AfD debate but don't link to it. It is not at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Video Surveillance of Presidents by the Justice Department. So where is it? -- RHaworth 18:11, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Page Vandal

Why do you keep vandalizing my pages? --Beatyou 03:44, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Copyright

I had a conversation with the copyright holder. It can be seen in the Helpdesk-l mailing list archives here, following the "next message" link at the bottom. Generally, don't remove copyvio listings unless you are 100% sure the content was GFDL-licensed. Cheers, [[Sam Korn]] 16:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Ryan Lake

Same goes for Ryan Lake. Do some research before you wantonly tag these things.

Article is now on Afd. --JJay 19:38, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Dmitri Leybman

I think you're right. I could have sworn I did a cursory search to check the basic facts about the guy when I initally reverted vandalism on him, but it looks like I didn't. Google seems to get only wikimirors and non-related things. Go ahead an AfD. I'll support, unless someone can establish that he is a writer for the Village Voice (though whether that's sufficient notability is also debatable). -R. fiend 23:50, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Message from User:MarkRyanIversen

The Aetna information I added to thier site was from internal documents as an employee. I am using information we have for press releases and media, so all the info I added to the Aetna site was information that Aetna allows to be published to press, etc. Wikipedia would be considered that.

But the Footballers Wives information, you deleted storylines that were on a fan site that I updated and changed so it wasnt copy and paste and also deleted the following, all of which were not copyrighted: Footballers Wives: Extra Time With the success of Footballers Wives came the spinoff series, Footballers' Wives: Extra Time that began on ITV2 on 26 May 2005. It aired after Series Four of the original and many cast members, including Amber, Harley, Shannon, Bruno, Lucy and Seb, appeared on the series. It ran for 12 episodes.

Foreign Audience Footballers Wives currently airs in Sweden, Australia, Netherlands, Finland and Hungary. It began in the United States in the summer of 2005 on BBC America. It aired Series One & Two and Series Three is scheduled to premiere on 3 February 2006.

DVD Release Series One - Three have been released on DVD in the United Kingdom. Series Four has only been released in Australia. It will be released in the U.K. on 27 March 2006. Series One was also released in the U.S.

• why is stuff I am working on being deleted that Ive worked on. Its a TV show Ive been watching since 2002 and know it inside out. I would like an explanation as to why you are considering stuff as copyrighted when it is not. If the storyline details I write from my head from memory, would it stay on the site? And how come you cant use the logo and screen caps from the show? I see those on TONS of TV sites, both logos and screen caps. And footballers wives: extra time site was fully removed when i only used storyline recap from another website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkRyanIversen (talk • contribs) 23:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments on my user page (now moved to talk page). Regarding the Aetna article and articles on Aetna officers, all the information you added was taken verbatim from the Aetna website or Aetna press releases. An example is the company history, which you copied from here [[5]]. The fact that you are an Aetna employee or that Aetna makes this info publicly available does not change that it is copyrighted material. As an Aetna employeee, I am sure you are aware that Aetna prominently displays a copyright notice on their website and other materials. Following Wikipedia policy, unless you can secure a written release from your employer, stating that it is releasing the material into the public domain (per GFDL), it can not be published on Wikipedia and it was therefore removed. Copyvio notices were placed on the Aetna management articles.

Regarding Footballers' Wives, your edits were taken verbatim from [The Custard]. The changes you made to the copied text, were not material and given that it was taken from a commercial site, might have qualified the article for speedy deletion. Instead I reverted your edits. While an episode guide may be a valid addition to the article, Wikipedia does not allow copying one from a commercial provider. If you hold the copyright to material published on custard.tv, please submit it to Wikipedia.

The same is true for Footballers' Wives: Extra Time. The description and episode guides were taken again from [[6]]. As the majority of the article was a copyright violation, a copyvio notice was placed on the article.

As many of your edits have been taken from commercial sites, they have been reverted. You ask the question if "I write from my head from memory, would it stay on the site" . Yes, subject to future edits. This is what wikipedia is all about.

I'm sure you have many great contributions to make to Wikipedia. Just brush up on wikipedia policies and avoid the copyright violations and you won't have any issues with me or anyone else (although I do have comments regarding your Kent School District edits).

Best wishes. P.S. as you make a habit of clearing edits to your talk page, a copy of this will be put on my talk page. --JJay 01:14, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

User talk:MarkRyanIversen

I'll learn to not do that and when doing storyline issues, to do so from memory (as it is not hard for me to do that). The Aetna one. I am new to it all so it was fun to actually add something. So I will admit to my errors and correct them for future entries.

I resubmitted info on FW:Extra Time and FW that was not copyrighted. The only thing I go from another site that would still be on there would be the premiere date. I know of the year but did need reference to the exact premiere date of the series.

Regarding Kent School District site. I am big on legal issues with various thing and that does hold a close tie to myself. The one regarding myself, that is from my legal files, in court/public record. I was going to delete some and add responses from the other side so it wasn't a one-way issue. I am not against sharing views on both ends. The other legal issues were ones I've had on Word Documents that I assume were from news sites (Ive had them for a while so the exact source I would not know). Feel free to remove any of that. I wanted a fair share of views on a school district and showing "bad" issues to show what the past has been for them. Again, its been less than a week (I believe it is) that Ive discovered Wikipedia and I will be careful in what I do. Please let me know your opinions on this. Again, my appologies. Thank you. Mark

Mark concerning the storylines, its ok to draw on stuff from websites, just don't take it word for word. Rewrite it so it doesn't sound like advertising copy and then cite the source as a link (and try to use mainstream sources).

With the Kent School District, I thought the legal stuff was a good addition but maybe a bit too long. If it can be condensed it would be more effective. Also links to sources or opposing viewpoints are obviously a plus.

Anyway I didn't mean to come down on you and I realize you didn't know the policy on copyvios (which are one of my pet peeves). I've made plenty of mistakes too. Wikipedia can be complicated but its fun and I know you'll enjoy contributing. Welcome aboard. --JJay 01:54, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Text from www.wga.hu

Hello Cryptic. What's the policy on use of material from www.wga.hu. I've noticed that numerous verbatim articles and images are being submitted from this site. They state their policy as follows:

The Web Gallery of Art is copyrighted as a database. Images and documents downloaded from this database can only be used for educational and personal purposes. Distribution of the images in any form is prohibited without the authorization of their legal owner.[[7]]

Does Wikipedia have blanket approval for using this material? Also, www.wga.hu provides extensive references for their content, which they themselves may or may not have permission to use. See sources [[8]]. At the very least, shouldn't Wikipedia's use of this content be clearly acknowledged on article talk pages. --JJay 19:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

We don't have blanket approval (at least, not to my knowledge). I sent a standard confirmation of permission email to the contact address on the website mentioning only the text of the articles Madonna with Sts John the Baptist and Donatus (Verrocchio), Saint Madeleine (Caravaggio), The Baptism of Christ (Verrocchio), and Narcissus (Caravaggio), and received a reply confirming permission to use these under the GFDL. (The images themselves in these articles are in the public domain.) If someone is claiming that he has blanket approval to use all material on their site under the GFDL, this needs to be confirmed again.

For those four articles (which are the only ones I've looked at), the article talk pages do acknowledge the web site - see {{confirmation}} and its talk page.

If you're referring to http://www.wga.hu/sources.html (which is what the "sources" link on all of wga.hu's pages go to), it's a list of references that they consulted to create the text on their pages. Their sources don't have a copyright interest in the text wga created and granted to us, anymore than the sources listed in the ==References== sections of our articles do. (Of course, if they copied the material from elsewhere, their permission grant is meaningless and we can't use the material. There's no reason to think that, though; when googling for the text in the articles, I did find it on a few other sites, but it looked very much to me that wga was the original source.) —Cryptic (talk) 19:43, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your speedy response. I've reviewed the new pages submitted by Attilios so far this month. The following are all copyvios from www.wga.hu without any reference on the article talk pages:

...

There are probably many more if I look at edits from Attilios in October or earlier. Unless www.wga.hu has released their database under GFDL, I think we need to state clearly where we are getting our material (particularly as none of the articles have links or sources). Could you let me know how to proceed? I don't really want to tag all this as copyvios, but I will without a clear direction on policy. --JJay 01:26, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Hm. The exact wording I got back (from a Dr. Emil Kren) was "Hereby I confirm that permission was granted to use some pages of the Web Gallery of Art in Wikipedia". Sixty-seven (or more!) pages does seem excessive for "some". The logical thing to do would be to email wga.hu, explain the situation, and ask them about it, especially since their usual license isn't compatible with the GFDL. If they again confirm permission, either for the pages you listed or their site as a whole, forward a copy of the reply to "permissions at wikimedia dot org".

You're certainly right about the lack of acknowledgement being a problem. The source of this material should be clearly stated in the edit summary as it's added and on the talk page, both to satisfy the GFDL and to lessen the chance that someone else stumbles on the pages, checks google, and tags them as copyvios. —Cryptic (talk) 15:13, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry. Maybe I proceded it with too much enthusiasm. I asked www.wga.hu if could use their pages, and they simply replied I could. I didn't know the exact way to specify in the WIkipedia article that the used text was their. Therefore, what can I do? Now ALL these articles must be rejected? I have to notify www.wga.hu ALL the times I add text from their database? Please notice I never act in a fraudulent way, since in my opinion I DID receive permission to use the text.Attilios.

Thanks for your response. Enthusiasm is good and I'm not accusing you of fraud or anything like that. I am contacting www.wga.hu to secure GFDL permission for all the articles submitted as well as future content. They may very well grant permission for this. In that case, the main thing that needs to be done is to acknowledge the permission on the article talk pages. If they refuse permission, though, then I'm afraid that the copyright material would have to be removed from the articles. --JJay 19:43, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

List of Jewish Fellows in Royal Society

You voted "strong keep" because you suspected bad faith on that vote. I think you are mistaken - according to wikipedia a list can be immediately revoted for deletion if there was a no "consensus" - which there was in the last case. Clearly, with so many DELETE votes now, the call for revote was a good call. Please reconsider your vote for "stong keep" as it will probably slow down the process for the deletion of this - as it may create another "no consensus" - thank you for reading. 65.9.143.84 20:13, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Since you have no edits to your credit I don’t know who you are or where you really stand on this issue. I will say this: there is a difference between what Wikipedia policy allows and the best course of action. My reading of the last debate for List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society [[9]](in which I took no stand) was that the outcome could have been Keep given signs of sock puppet activity in the voting. The admin called it No Consensus. I see no imperative for the rapid renom- and you provide no arguments against the list- therefore I will not reconsider my vote. --JJay 21:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

CFD and LGBT criminals

Hi - Appearances notwithstanding, I didn't actually mean to single you out in my comment. I apologize if you took this as a personal comment. By and large, I really don't care for any of the "intersection" categories. I'm not sure what to do about this (it's irked me for quite some time), but in this specific instance there seems to be a claim that this category carries an inherent anti-LGBT POV. It might - but, it might not as well. In any event, I thought a personal message about this might be warranted. -- Rick Block (talk) 05:38, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Rick, thanks for the note. I didn't take any offense whatsoever. If my response was heated, it wasn't meant that way. Its strange how, um, spirited those discussions can get. I admit I'm surprised by all the support on the Keep Side, though, and can't see the logic or intent of the category. It would seem logical to me to group serial killers together, gay, straight, black, white, etc.

I do understand your concerns though. The category, if kept, will be a POV magnet from all sides. It will be used by pro-gay and anti-gay editors to slander both gays and non-gays. Some will want to pack the category to show that gays are involved in lots of crimes. Some will use it to brand anyone they don't like. Anyone with the most tenuous LGBT connection will be thrown in. People convicted of sodomy will be added, such as Oscar Wilde. Others will want to include people out of a sense of pride (LGBT are normal, they therefore commit crimes like anyone else). Crimes involving homosexual victims might qualify. Should Oscar Wilde be in the same category as a female prostitue who may have suffered LGBT sexual abuse as a child, and then 30-years later killed a series of male clients? When I pointed out a lot of immediate problems with the category, the response is always let's keep it, because those problems will be immediately addressed and won't reappear. In my view, these types of problems reflect an inherently flawed category/list, they can't be fixed and will be a constant problem.

In any case, I'm not trying to get you to change your vote. Just throwing out some ideas, as usual. Take care --JJay 09:28, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

new category created

User talk:67.171.237.88 created Category:LGBT murderers this morning, you may want to cfd it or watch it so you know when its been cfded. Arniep 16:00, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. It amazes me that people pull these kind of stunts while the cfd is still going on. I won't be nominating it- have no stomach for starting another debate at this time- but will watch it. -- JJay 17:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Jewish votes

Hi, the sock puppet you spotted, the nominator of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2005_November_18#List_of_Jewish_jurists (your comment:Strong Keep. Changing my vote. Don't like anon noms here + 2nd anom vote, both out of Atlanta.-- JJay 05:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)) is back at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2005_November_26#List_of_Jewish_American_scientists Thanks Arniep 01:09, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Please see my comment at: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2005_November_26#List_of_Jewish_Americans. Thanks Arniep 02:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

My Hero

Is you. That was a great response to IZ or whatever his name is on the deletion page for the Jewish categories. I too am sick of the constant nominations and I have been a very strong supporter of categories for every single religious and ethnic group (I was behind Spanish-Americans and Portuguese-Americans, among others). Way to go and it's pretty clear, based on the votes, that these categories aren't getting deleted. I'm just worried that we are now going to get every single Jewish category nominated separately, in which case I am pretty sure that I am just going to remove the AFD on grouds of Extreme Annoyance and the heck with the consequences.Vulturell 07:35, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I thought it might piss people off but felt I needed to say it. It did reflect some real anger and disgust. I think the situation has become irrational and the Afd process has broken down. I also don't have time to consider all these lists every day. The only rational solution is to vote Strong Keep across the board until the dust settles. Even if some are repetitive, who does it hurt if they stay? Why the immediate renoms, sock puppets, etc? Right now a whole bunch of AFds are being closed out by a non-admin with a null and void outcome. What the hell does that mean? -- JJay 07:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'll explain that situation. Some user (sock puppet?) nominated every single sublist of "Jewish Americans" i.e. "List Of Jewish American Show Business Figures" but didn't nominate "List Of Jewish Americans" itself (that list is a huge list with all the subcategories included). I suggested, not unreasonably, that instead of deleting all these smaller, separate lists, we should delete the content from the main "List Of Jewish Americans" and put in links to the separate sub-lists (which if you add them all up have basically the same content as the main list), thus making it easier to navigate the lists. Mr. Sock Puppet Man agreed and removed his AFD's (the null and void) as soon as I nominated the main "List Of Jewish Americans" for an overhaul, which I think it will get. Vulturell 08:01, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I don't know if its possible for you guys to do this. I reverted one, and other Afds will be reverted also. Once the process starts, it usually continues. Why is a new user so motivated to nom numerous religion lists? Why doesn't he do some edits first? That strikes me as suspicious and I now doubt everyone's good faith. For the time being, I will maintain my policy and votes across the board. The Jewish subcats will be renomed anyway. That I'm sure of. Anyway, I'll check back later in the day. -- JJay 08:09, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I think people like the idea of having "List Of Jewish Americans" be a link to smaller lists - it really helps navigation and space. It's what he have in List of Jews right now. I am also voting across the board and I think you're right about Mr. Sock Puppet Man. If the Jewish cats are re-nominated without the same user nominating some non-Jewish cats first, then I am actually going to remove the AFD on the grounds that I told you (Extreme Annoyance). If am blocked because of this (could be) than I'll just create a new account, "Vulturell's Sock Puppet".Vulturell 08:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Please see my comments at User_talk:OwenX#User:StabRule. Arniep 16:43, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

The assault on the List of sexual slang

Two users in particular The Literate Engineer & Voice of All(MTG) have apparently made it their duty to get rid of the list and they have been using underhanded tactics in an attempt to do so in any way they can.

But word is getting out, and supporters of the list are starting to rally against them and protect the list (via rerverting vandalism, countering their tactics, etc.).

The results of the 18 October AfD:

• Keep & clean = 3
• Keep, no clean = 11
• Delete = 2

The anonymous clean-up notice

The following anonymous clean-up notice was posted to the list on November 1st:

23:44, 1 November 2005 68.17.227.41

The notice was placed without group consensus, and there was no edit comment. Pretty sneaky.

This was the user's only edit. Nothing before or after. A sock-puppet.

The results of the 10 November Afd

• Keep & clean up =3 votes
• Keep, with no mention of clean up =7 votes
• Delete = 4 votes (including the nomination)

That's 10 votes to keep, out of which 3 voted to clean up. Seven out of ten clearly voiced their desire to retain the list without deleting its entries.

Dishonest report of Afd results

Voice of All(MTG) reported the results as " ", and he and The Literate Engineer used that as the basis to erase the content of the list, which they did in successive edits.

Non-consensual list move

During the 10 November AfD discussion, Voice of All(MTG) moved the list to the new article name sexual slang, citing the introduction at the top of the list as the basis for the move ("it is more than a list"). Several users then used the article title as an argument against including any list entries.

When an article is moved, the change history is moved with it, and a redirect is placed under the original article's title. If the redirect is edited, then the article cannot be moved back. That is exactly what has happened to the list. See Wikipedia:Merging and moving pages for more information.

The current situation

The change history of the list is currently stranded as the change history of Sexual slang.

The content of the list itself has been restored to List of sexual slang, where it was originally. This preserves the spirit of the results of the two AfD discussions mentioned above.

To summarize:

1. On Oct 18 the list was nominated for AfD (article for deletion), but this attempt to delete failed, and the vote was overwhelmingly to Keep.
2. An anonymous sock-puppet placed a clean-up notice on the list. It has been used as a justification to delete entries.
3. On Nov 10, The Literate Engineer made an AfD attempt against the list and it failed too.
4. Then Voice of All(MTG) underhandedly moved the list to the non-list name sexual slang, while the AfD was still underway.
5. Voice of All(MTG)reported false results for the 10 November AfD vote, and he and The Literate Engineer edited out the entire list.
6. I posted a rebuttal to the above antics on the talk page for sexual slang, and reverted the sexual slang article to the November 15 version in the article's change history (the complete list). My username ("Bend over") was banned as inappropriate or offensive.
7. Some editors stated that an article is not the place for a list, and used that as a justification to keep list entries.
8. So I replaced the redirect at List of sexual slang with the actual content of the entire list. Unfortunately, the change history for the list is still part of the change history for the article sexual slang.
9. An attempt is being made to protect the list against vandalism at its original location: List of sexual slang.

Remember, the three reversion limit does not apply when reverting vandalism. Only if enough concerned users participate will this be successful.

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. Red Rover 21:58, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Backup needed

JJay can you have a look at the discussion here User_talk:OwenX#User:StabRule. User:StabRule has now placed a third vote on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish jurists and Owenx for some reason is refusing to even warn the user, I don't understand whats going on here. Arniep 22:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Barnstar for color transposition

I hearby award you these non-yellow tennis-balls of friendship.

And for your clothing preference: http://www.tenniscompany.com/images/Clothing_Volkl_BlackShorts.JPG

Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 19:03, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Hey thanks. Not sure if those balls would actually fit in the shorts, but they certainly add color to my drab talk page. At least some people still have a sense of humour here. We need more of that in life. -- JJay 19:12, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Um?

What in the world are you referring to? Do you really expect me to know what you're talking about? john k 00:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Looking at it now, I have no idea how the revert came about. I was not attempting to revert at all, simply to add a period. I suppose I must have been looking at an old version of the article, or something. At any rate, it was an accident, and I would appreciate it if you didn't make accusations against me, without any specifics, and then refuse to even explain what you mean. john k 04:09, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

If you had simply said what you were referring to, I would not have responded with annoyance. As it was, I was standing accused of something which I had no memory of doing. Obviously, I was somewhat careless in accidentally reverting. If you had cited the change and asked me why I reverted in your initial comment, I would have quickly seen that I made a mistake, and apologized. As it stands, I'm not going to apologize for anything, because you've been a dick about the whole thing. john k 05:23, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I may have been a bit quick off the handle here. I apologize for being rude, and I shouldn't have called you a dick. That said, your original comment was one about what was obviously an inadvertent reverting mistake - even if the revert itself had been purposeful, it can be presumed that I wasn't trying to change usage back to "oppresicly." As such, it was, from the beginning, quite likely that I would not be able to gather what you were talking about from your initial comment. This would have been easily solved by you simply saying what you were talking about. I (perhaps rather rudely) responded, indicating that, indeed, I did not know what you were talking about. In your second comment, you continued to refuse to indicate what you were talking about, forcing me to go back through the contributions list and figure out what was going on. Once again, all that would have been necessary to prevent this entire unfortunate exchange would have been if you had simply indicated the article you were referring to in your first comment to me. Most of the unpleasantness could have been prevented if you had simply linked me after my first comment. Basically, people do a lot of stuff on wikipedia. If you provide a completely out of context statement on a talk page, you ought not be surprised that the person you are speaking to does not know what you are referring to. If that out of context statement is a criticism, you ought not be surprised that the person responds somewhat hostilely. And if you continue to act as though they should automatically know what you're talking about, after they've indicated that they don't, you ought not be surprised that they react even more hostilely. This is not to defend my conduct in this exchange - I have clearly not handled this very well - but just to say that my conduct does not arise out of natural irascibility, but as a fairly predictable result of the way you have dealt with this issue. john k 06:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

RFC on User:Antidote

Hi, you may be interested in this: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antidote. I would appreciate if you could endorse the dispute at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antidote#Users_certifying_the_basis_for_this_dispute Thanks, Arniep 15:14, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, if you have time I'd appreciate your looking at this, the user is the same as StabRule (aka HotelRoom + EscapeArtistsNeverDie). They voted multiple times mainly on Jewish lists, most recently on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish inventors. Thanks Arniep 14:10, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

details of their multi-voting: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antidote/Voting, contributions Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antidote/Contribution_table, comments Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Antidote/User_comments. Arniep 14:12, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

HB

I acknowledge that you may be right as for the Hilton Becker thing: I'm a little preoccupied today, and may not have given the merits of the article proper consideration relative to its flaws.

Once I'm finished with my today's (paying) project, I'll go over the relevant pages more carefully and perhaps undelete the page. Or perhaps I'll leave it deleted, but either way I'll let you know. Okay? DS 18:04, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Stubs

I'm making them - see Stanford Ovshinsky - so if you have time go ahead and help me out. Antidote 23:32, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

• That's very impresive. Amazing what an Rfc can do in the way of changes. I'll make some stubs- but I still think you should withdraw your nom on the list, since it's going to be much harder to copy from it once its deleted. -- JJay 23:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm doing this in order to find a consensus with you. If it were done the correct way then all of the red names would just be moved to their corresponding country lists (many of them already exist there anyway) and these extra lists would be deleted (that way Jews can be treated like any other ethnicity on Wikipedia). You just don't see to like to compromise. Antidote 22:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

List of Jewish inventors

It's pretty funny that Antidote recently made Category:Slovak inventors and Category:Serbian inventors under an anon ip and another of his interestingly named accounts User:EscapeArtistsNeverDie, and just said "one does not wish to start a revolution of ethnic battling on wikipedia with List of German inventors, List of Chinese inventors, and List of Native Inuit Eskimo inventors". LOL Arniep 20:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• Lots of what he says seems funny or absurd. While I have got him to start making stubs, he wouldn't be making the stubs without the lists, all of which he wants to delete or "reform". He also seems to enjoy ethnic battles. -- JJay 20:51, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Its not so funny that he wants to remove Jewish people from all the European country lists though... please sign or comment on his rfc Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Antidote. Arniep 20:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• The problem with the rfc, is that I haven't had time to review the mass of materials there. I'm also not a huge fan of bureaucracy and don't know anything about the rfc process. I'll try to fous on that later tonight. -- JJay 21:02, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Appreciate if you put these comments on my talk page so I can comment on them, or else you'll all be left in the dark and assuming what you wish to assume. Thanks. Antidote 21:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• You seem to be doing fine commenting here, so no need to put comments on your talk page. Of course, feel free to copy anything from this page that you think you might need. -- JJay 00:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

www.wga.hu

So how far did it get? Can those articles stay? I would like to end it once and for all. Renata3 22:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• Hi, can you fill me in on where you fit in this. I don't remember speaking to you about the WGA problem. -- JJay 22:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• • Nope, you did not speak with me. You spoke with Cryptic and with Attilios. I discovered one article yesterday and I got interested. And now I want to know if it got settled or just got forgot. Just looking if I can help. :) Renata3 22:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• Ok, I'll spell out the situation as best as I can. We have written permission to use "some" of the WGA material. Because Attilios has submitted a substantial amount of articles taken from WGA, I wrote to WGA to ask for clarification. My mails were repetedly bounced, but I have emailed Dr. Krenz twice now without response. I was too busy with work to follow up, but I think a third mail to the WGA would be in order, before we decide whether to keep or copyvio the WGA articles. Obviously, if they are kept, credit has to be shown, which is a big job in itself, particularly as there are more than 63 articles probably well over 100. -- JJay 22:32, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• • Is the original permission text available? In any case those articles need clean up. Renata3 22:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

We're all in it together

I'd just like to say 'thanks' for defending List of fictional Elvis impersonators. I am the creator (something I'm not pointing out on the VfD page), but I am by no means the only contributor. I admit it's not something of striking importance, but it's good to know there are other people who consider it worth keeping. -Litefantastic 00:43, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• Well I voted the way I thought best. Everyone has their own definition of what is valuable. If the encyclopedia was based strictly on what I think is meaningful, it would be very small and probably very boring. I therefore try to support things if I think others might find it useful. But as I stated, what annoys me a great deal is the lack of consideration to other editors shown by using AfD as a weapon. -- JJay 00:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

FROM GHava

Please do not delete us. There are tons of Ghava™ collaborators listed on Wikipedia that discuss projects in which Ghava™ has been involved in creatively. We are in the process of adding more information discussing the art exhibitions GHava™ has been involved with domestically as well as internationally.

On a separate note, The Designers Republic are listed here. Why is GH avisualagency™ being marked for deletion. GHava™ is the same type of collective and have collaborated with many of the same people. This is not making any logical sense.--lerner

• Looks like the situation may be out of my hands now. Nothing seems to make any logical sense anymore. Thanks for your message. -- JJay 01:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for your reply and honest response. Seeing as how you feel like the situation is out of your hands would you please mind not voting either way by retracting your delete vote in the discussion of the topic? I would sincerely appreciate it. --lerner

Barry Wood

I have created an article about the England cricketer called Barry Wood (cricketer). If the current article in the namespace is deleted as seems likely, I would like to move the article about the cricketer into the namespace. Most of the What Links Here for Barry Wood are for the cricketer. Capitalistroadster 09:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

consumerpedia deletion

Hi JJay,

You voted keep on Consumerpedia. I have lodged a comment on that page disagreeing, with a bit of new information. Please reconsider your vote. Thanks!

DanKeshet 22:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Voila. -- JJay 22:17, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! DanKeshet 22:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

List of White Americans

I know we've never seen eye to eye, but they're trying to delete this article. Deleting it and keeping NA and Black American lists is just racist IMHO.Gateman1997 00:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• I more or less agree with you. But, what can I do? I'm not an admin an there is a speedy on the article. Even if it went through AfD, the list would probably or almost definitely get deleted, based on the previous vote. -- JJay 00:47, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
  • You could delete the speedy. I'd do it myself but it's against policy since I started the article.Gateman1997 01:26, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• Nah...I'll leave that for the admins to decide. The list may qualify as a speedy. You also should know that I am more interested in process and policy than content (as demonstrated by my recent voting on the Indian List- my original vote had been delete). There is a way that you could get around this in the future I think. Do a sourced list of self-proclaimed caucasians. -- JJay 01:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Paris streets-list

Hi, I think it would be a pity to have this disappear but it has to be reduced in size to meet wiki standards. The easiest would be to turn it into a top level page pointing to 26 alphabetical linked pages. But I think added value would be got by breaking it down by arrondissement - you ask how would this make it smaller and it's true that some streets would duplicate over of the 20 arrondissement but, even still, each of the 20 articles would be close to the recommended 30K or so. The two solutions are complementary rather than mutually exclusive. Dlyons493 Talk 11:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

That all sounds good to me. How do we go about it? -- JJay 17:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

• • I've added List of streets in Paris, France in alphabetical order into Portal:Paris. It's only got A and B as proof-of-concept but will be easy to do the others in the same way. I'm sure there must be more elegant ways but feel the best thing is to save the data first (I've made a local copy of all the names and can do the other letters quickly). What do you think - if you've a better way let me know or just go ahead and do it. Dlyons493 Talk 21:57, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

• This is really good. If there is a better way, I don't see it now. In any case, it could always be changed later. The important thing is to hold onto the data for the time being. -- JJay 00:37, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

• • More by way of experiment than anything else I've created Rue Zadkine. Comments appreciated. Dlyons493 Talk 02:24, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

IATCE

I mentioned it because that particular construction is rather confusing. Expand is obviously a keep-style comment, but you didn't actually say "and delete unless expanded", you just offered delete as another, opposing, option. It would have been clearer had you expanded the article (or phrased differently). On the broader point, I personally think those who say an article should be expanded should do some of the legwork they are mandating. That's just a personal opinion, though. -Splash^talk 01:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Regarding Aileen Passloff

Thanks for switching to the correct template! Bjelleklang - talk 06:12, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

• No problem. -- JJay 06:13, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

hi

i read your comment on the GH avisualagency AfD page and saw that you have extensive experience on here. i am trying to contribute to the GH article but everyone on the discussion page keeps giving me the wrong advice. most insisted that i have to prove notability, then they said that it was wrong to list articles about the collective. i don't know who to believe as they all keep leading me astray. if you could please offer me any advice on how to make the article better or make any adjustments yourself i would sincerely appreciate it. even if it does get deleted, at least i will have known that i tried my best to make it a better article. thanks so much.

• for editing reference, these lead to some other wikipedia articles i feel are similar: art collective, artist collective, List of graphic designers

Inspectorpanther 16:38, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Via-à-vis The Three Sounds

Cheers! --Ezeu 14:41, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

User:Gateman1997

Hi JJay. The guy is obviously getting bothered by your replying to a bunch of his votes on AfD, so see if you can refrain doing it, as things are better when things are mellow. Thanks! Proto t c 15:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your great research

Wondering what you think of exploding animal now? CanadianCaesar The Republic Restored 20:47, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Americas Funniest Home Videos/Opening Credits

Hi, how do you go about getting an undeletion vote? The above article was deleted with a 10 Keep/Merge to 12 Delete vote, which sure as hell aint the two thirds majority supposedly needed! Jcuk 07:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

You can put in a request at Wikipedia:Votes_for_Undeletion, but I'm not sure how far you will get, as the article was apparently previously deleted and thus speediable. -- JJay 08:08, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

ok, cheers Jcuk 17:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Jalali calendar

Hmm... so what's the difference in correct usage between copyvio and db-copyvio? Melchoir 08:01, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Db-copyvio is only supposed to be used for stuff that's taken from commercial content providers, meaning things like newspapers, magazines, books, etc. For everything else, you should use the regular copyvio tag and place a notice on the copyvio page, because it allows editors one week to rewrite the material on a temp page and/or secure permission to use the content. -- JJay 08:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I see. Thanks! Melchoir 08:09, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Teriyaki Boyz

OK, so I mistagged something a few minutes after entry. I err on the side of dropping an SD tag on most of the questionable Newpage stuff I find. If anything, this appears to be my third mistagged speedy delete out of 471 speedies (inclusive of those three), so overall it's not so bad. Heck, that's better than the US Army right now. It sounded like a stack of nonsense to begin with, and I admit I should've googled it, but I went to Allmusic first and there was no entry for them. That said, I don't think that the album itself needs an entry. Overall, the group doesn't meet WP:MUSIC either, so I'm going to keep an eyeball on it for a little while.  RasputinAXP  _{talk contribs} 14:20, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Happy to engage you in debate

1. The AfD discussion was not closed at the point I posted to it, nor was it closed (according to my browser) when I exited it. I assume, this having happened before, that there is some lag time between when an article is closed and when that closure is effective. Whatever the case, I know what I am doing, and at the time I posted my comment, the AfD was still open for comment. I feel no need to apologise for technical issues.

Edit made 7 hours post close- [10]

As I say, I feel no need to apologise for technical issues.

2. I have no idea whether you are just now completing junior high (or whatever you call it where you live) or if you have a Master's degree. I did not venture a guess on that in my post. I can speak only for my experience, not for yours. My remarks concerning your school experience are entirely relevant. Those people who remain connected with their schools have an entirely different perception of the importance of that school than those who do not. Were I to learn that you have not been in touch with your high school since the day you walked out the door, I wouldn't touch your perception as far as I could hurl it. On the other hand, if you have continued to maintain touch with staff and former students, or if you have a child who is attending this school, I would be more than willing to give credence to your account (while still subjecting it to the necessary requirements of noteworthiness).If you are indeed "surrounded by other snickering acne-covered juveniles, many of whom will go on to become distinguished alumni, notable enough to warrant mention on a wikipedia page", you may wish to reconsider an article when in fact these juveniles are actually "distinguished". Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.

My guess is you haven't seen the inside of a school since you finished high school [11]

Otherwise, my comments stand.

3. My perspective is well outside the mainstream? Nice try. While school debates are regularly closed with no consensus, it is extremely rare that they are closed with consensus. Heretical? You've only been here a few weeks. I will allow you the right to be wet behind the ears.

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashland High School (Ohio), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Quartz Hill High School, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wilmington Friends School, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stuarts Draft High School, etc.

"Etc" being shorthand for "I can't find any more". This is four out of how many dozen, over what period of time?

4. I beg mercy for the inability to read your mind. "...while I was adding information..." is not exactly a good reason for me to be shouting hurrahs for the completeness of this article. Moreover, your implicit criticism of my inability to type is petty at least.

If you can find me a notable high school beside which I may be properly recondite, fine. I have no issue with articles on schools which are properly notable, and that notability may occur for several reasons. I will not, however, accept, as you appear to, that a school is notable merely because there are students in the building. This is an encyclopedia, not a yellow pages. We require that individuals, bands, businesses, and web sites show some degree of worthiness for inclusion in Wikipedia. In my judgement, if a school has not been deemed worthy of inclusion in some non-school documentation, then it is not worthy of inclusion here. I trust you understand my position now. Please enlighten me on yours. Denni ☯ 01:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

This is also not a debate society. I have been more than gracious to respond to your numerous questions when directed at me. Reread my comments around the site if you really require further details. I will now concede on all points, you may consider that your great knowledge and experience has resulted in another crushing victory. Good luck in your future endeavors-- JJay 01:33, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for conceding on all points, and recognizing that you have nothing of value to contribute to these arguments. (just kidding. The most important trait of an editor, IMHO, is that s/he appreciates the importance of collaboration with all other editors= in making Wikipedia the best possible source of information. If that is you, I propose we agree to disagree on the issue of schools and work as colleages in other areas.) Denni ☯ 02:23, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Voting to keep almost everything

I had noticed you regularly vote to keep almost every article on WP:VFD, especially lists of X. I can assure you that to keep open ended and popular enough list is very hard and unpleasant experience. Maybe if you try to do it yourselves you may change your opinion.

It is quite common for novices to forget encyclopedia is not repository of everything. The task of VFD should be to give more experienced people tool to stick with WP rules and aims. Pavel Vozenilek 03:03, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for your comments. Please point me to policy that states Keep is not a valid vote on VfD. -- JJay 03:08, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say Keep votes aren't valid. I just pointed to need to keep with rules from WP:NOT (section Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information). This article doesn't and cannot list all cases but it gives enough of hints what is reasonable encyclopedic topic. Thanks for understanding. Pavel Vozenilek 04:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. You did helpfully point out that I am a "novice". If there is a minimum edit count required for voting please state the figure, so I can try to boost my count from the few thousand at present. However, if there is no rule in this respect, I intend to keep participating and voting keep as I see fit based on existing wikipedia rules guidelines. This will be the case for lists, which are extremely useful and appealing and have always existed in encyclopedias. The possibilities for nurturing, growing and developing lists are endless and one of the true joys and delights of this project. I would also suggest you ponder the statement that wikipedia is not paper. -- JJay 04:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

You should not feel this term as derogatory, it simply means that someone is on Wikipedia for short time and may not be fully familiar with its internal processes, trends, abilities and limitations. As for thousands of edits - this number doesn't count that much and vast majority of the edits comes from AfD voting, not from articles creation and maintenance.

I really recommend you to get involved in maintenance of articles about popular topics. This is much unthankful work, practically hopeless under current state of WP, yet much needed. I did so for a year until I got burnt out. Now I concentrate on Czech related topic (which have minimal attention of vandals), and only sometimes deal with administrative parts. Pavel Vozenilek 05:00, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually you are quite wrong about my edit count. Most of my edits come from maintenance as shown here [12], which is the list of roughly 800 articles tagged for speedy deletion. However I may vote on VfD, my edits have led to the removal of far more articles than have been kept. -- JJay 11:33, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for being one of the few people who found us interesting enough to keep in the discussion about deleting S23 Wiki. Mutante23 08:12, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

How to win friends and influence people

Mr/Ms JJay thank you for your almost sole vote to keep my article Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Promises of troop withdrawal by American presidents. FYI, I have given up on the article, attempted to mend fences with the perp who started this, and now will include the info in Election promise.

I also really liked your wit in the above post when the guy accused you of being a novice because you almost always vote to keep an article. Thank you sir/ma'am.Travb 12:43, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

• No problem. I think the topic of your article could be developed nicely, presenting both sides of the issue. However, you were not given a fair shake, or enough time to flesh out the article. It also amazes me that people will vote to keep junk like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Presidential gaffes, but not a potentially serious discussion of presidential issues.

Thanks for the comments regarding my wit. In fact, the guy above is wrong, because I have voted far more frequently overall to delete articles. That never engendered any comment from anyone. It is only when voting keep that you apparently break some unwritten rule and cause a serious breach of etiquette among the old wikipedia boys. -- JJay 12:57, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Just letting you know that I read what you wrote, and that the information is now at Election promise, I hope this is the last I ever hear of the user. Good luck. Travb 14:11, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Probably better if you two avoid each other- that is if you ever figure out who he was. I checked out election promise, interesting topic if it can stay balanced. Has the potential to become huge also. -- JJay 01:34, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Forward-looking statement

I posted my Google search results to the talk page. User:Dzonatas created this page and three templates last night as a result of a discussion about copyediting Joan of Arc.

He asserts that the United States Securities and Exchange Act of 1934 is a usage guideline for medieval history articles. "Forward-looking statement" is not a linguistics term. To toss this together with "gerund" and assert it has anything to do with centuries-old subjects is WP:Complete Bollocks. The term has a very narrow technical application in United States financial law. Either this editor is very confused or it's a deliberate attempt to snow people. Durova 18:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

What's this? You advise me to submit this for regular deletion and then accuse me of bad faith for following your advice. Durova 19:53, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Please study the substance of my nomination and assume good faith. Your presumption of a dispute bias appears to have colored your response. Durova 20:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

1. As a narrow technical term, the article is a dictdef.
2. The article creator makes fictitious claims in order to expand it beyond a dictdef.
3. If cleaned up for accuracy, we are left with a dictdef - at best a transwiki to Wikibooks.

I request that you strike the accusation of bad faith from your vote. The nomination meets Wikipedia guidelines. Durova 20:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Pilgrim State Hospital

Just wanted to say awesome job on the copyedit and merging! Nice work. Tom Foolery 00:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Romaia's potential

I understand your position (I've seen it e.g., at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/TEACCH) and respect you vote. I just want to let you know that I knew what I was doing when I was nominating this page. I could have explained you in more detail, but at the moment it will be just waste of our time. Cheers, mikka (t) 03:30, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of anti-abortion people

Thanks for helping out on that article. The supporters to keep it really appreciate the feedback, especially me. However, it has, unfortunately been deleted. One of the Wikipedians' rationale for deleting it was the paper thing, and 'that it justifies POV?' Well, as I previously stated, the article could've been edited to conform to NPOV. But you can't stop a deletionist any way you try in most cases. I supposes deletionism is predominant among members of Wikipedia, and thus it would be very difficult to keep any article, even with diligence. I just don't seem do understand it in most cases. But anyway, thank you for all the feedback you offered us Inclusionists, and others against deleting that informative article. Эйрон Кинни 04:36, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lloyd Robinson

On December 21, you voted on this AfD, stating "Weak keep and cleanup. May be notable as president of the Federation. Need some Australian input."

At the moment, it's 4-2 including your vote, so it's at risk of being a no-consensus keep. Every Australian to vote has voted delete, as he's not notable here. More importantly, however, the article isn't in any way verifiable, and it concerns me that such an article might be kept. Would you consider changing your vote? Ambi 09:17, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for your message. I have been able to confirm some of the info in this, but it looks like it will be deleted anyway. -- JJay 05:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

James Crabtree AFD

Please reconsider your vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Crabtree. I believe the subject of the article being AFDed is not the same person as the Guardian author. His blog seems even less than non-notable, and the article completely vanity. Please see the updates I've posted at the AFD. Thanks. Blackcats 22:47, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of U.S. foreign interventions since 1945 Afd

Well, I now know personally that you do vote to delete articles, Have you considered the merge option? I have added some comments to the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of U.S. foreign interventions since 1945 page which may help change your mind.Travb 01:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the message. I at first voted keep on this, but then some of the comments got under my skin, hence the change to delete. Based on the votes at this point, the keeps are well ahead so I don't see any point in changing my vote- if it was closer I would switch to abstain. -- JJay 01:30, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your candor. You probably are talking about "USA is the most hated country in the world" wikipedian, unfortunatly this user begs the question: "if these are my friends, who are my enemies?" I am sorry he got under your skin, he actually got under my skin too. Can I ask you a question. Is it real fair to judge an article for deletion based on a bad experience with another wikipedian? People wanted to delete secret plan because of my actions: "Delete per nom, Travb's attitude"[13] not because of the content of my article. I just feel this is not fair.

I think every vote counts in this argument. Every vote for "keep" is another vote toward a clear consensus. Wikipedians have already elected to delete this article, and it survived. It has been attacked every week since its inception, by people who completly want to delete this rich part of American history from wikipedia. I don't think wiki articles should be held captive indefinatly, under the threat of delete, by such revisionist history wikipedians. Your vote is important. Travb 02:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I'll give it some more thought. My mind is just not made up at present. Even with a keep though, someone could still renom. -- JJay 02:20, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks JJay all I ask is you think about it.Travb 02:22, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

CFD & Power Rangers

Nobody ever said look was a criteria for deletion. We were merely poking fun. We are allowed to have fun, aren't we? Search4LancerFile:Pennsylvania state flag.png 07:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Thou shalt not give Hitler posthumous victories.

Thank you for your comment. Regards, Durova 17:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

South African College

Hey there, thanks for merging the headmaster thing... I wasn't sure what to do there, but the headmaster part I thought would look weird because I just realised I don't have the full list of headmasters from both the high school and junior school and I thought it might look rather dumb... I'll get the full list for the past 176 years and then post it... --KryptonZone 12:34, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The full list would be good, but it would have to fit in the article. If you post it as a separate list, I'm sure someone will try to delete it. -- JJay 12:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah agreed, I will be able to stick it in, only 9 for the high school and like another 6 or 7 for the junior school. Thanks for the help anyways, it's really nice :) --KryptonZone 13:02, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Re : Maywood Avenue School

Hi JJay,

Tally count is 10 keep votes, 6 merge votes, and 1 delete. Majority vote 59%. Merge is not very similiar to keep, because the content is brought over to another article, and the original article deleted/redirected. No consensus is just something academic, because by default it is a "keep" conclusion de facto. So there. :)

Let me know if you need further clarification on my talkpage.

- Greetings!, Mailer Diablo 19:16, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

• No problem. Take care too, and happy new year in advance! :) - Mailer Diablo 19:24, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Religion of Karl Marx

Thanks for your comment. I only disputed the inaccurate claim that Marx converted from Judaism: it is misleading to claim that a baptism in childhood in an irreligious family constitutes a conversion. --- Charles Stewart 19:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Ayden Scheim

Thanks kindly for the heads-up. I definitely had to weigh in there. I agree that he's kind of a borderline case, but for me he's at least marginally on the keep side too. Bearcat 05:43, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Wilsonville High School

Thanks for improving this. I've noticed, that lately you've been one of the top, new school article improvers around here; which is nice to see . --Rob 03:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate that. The school articles are fun to work on. -- JJay 03:29, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

In that case, you may wish to add your name to Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools#Participants, as your probably a bigger participant than most of those listed. --Rob 05:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I added the page to my watchlist and will use it for reference, but I'm not sure if I fully agree with all the goals listed, so will hold off on adding my name for now. What I'm trying to do is to prevent the schools from getting deleted, particularly as speedies, like Deland High School and Belmont High School. -- JJay 06:24, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

No sweat. Even if you don't sign up, you're always welcome contribute to it, in any area, like the notable alumni info I'm gathering there. --Rob 06:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Added: If you are really keen on saving speedied articles, you may wish to check out Wikipedia:Watch/schoolwatch/New, as the red-links are generally speedied articles. Often the entire contents are so small they are included in the deletion summary (which you can view). You'll never catch ever speedy-tagged article before delete, so it's worthing noting they're still "saveable" after (mostly, not always). --Rob 07:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, but I caught both of the school articles above before they were speedied- check the edit histories. I save a few articles every day by monitoring the category. You would be shocked by what is being tagged, the abuse of CSD is frightening. -- JJay 07:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Afd comments

JJay,
I've noticed that you're a bit, well, terse in AfD discussions. There are several reasons that this is less than desirable, most of which I've already mentioned. However, it also lends to the less-than-collegial atmosphere of the discussions. We expect that people who nominate will take a little bit of time to explain why they think something should be deleted, and anyone else who takes part in the discussion should also make some effort to add something other than a naked vote. - brenneman^(t)(c) 00:44, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

That was bloody excellent! - brenneman^(t)(c) 00:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

list of insider traders

I wish you hadn't removed my speedy req on the List of insider traders page I started. I want to go back to the drawing board on that one. I think the categories and lists of market stuff are not in good shape, or at least I have a lot of trouble navigating through things that should be related, but I now reckon what I started won't improve the situation. The problems will be with charges being brought as other offences (say securities fraud in the US, I think), with how widespread insider trading was reputed to be in the US in the 1920s (but which will be very difficult to prove enough to add a pejoritive like insider trader to people from that time), and with closely related scandals missed for not quite being literally insider trading (I'm thinking for instance of Sumitomo copper here). So, as I say, I want to revert and look probably at improving the categories, then think carefully about what manual summaries could be maintained. -- Kevin Ryde 01:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

WP:CIV

Please remember to be civil. Your latest comments were in violation of that rule. Also your comment was not changed, the categorization it had incorrectly placed on the AFD was. Please note the difference as you had placed that AFD in a category it did not belong in, that was all that was corrected.Gateman1997 04:16, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Very funny. To use your own words, "your comments are no longer welcome". Also do you enjoy when people change your user page? -- JJay 04:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't even know why I bother. You're definitely not one of the more personable people involved in this project are you? I won't be contacting you again assuming you do the same.Gateman1997 04:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Excellent news. -- JJay 05:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Adding George W. Bush

JJay, I appreciate your sense of humor in the AfD. I got a huge laugh from your idea of having a bot add GWB to every list, indluding List of Elvis impersonators. Thanks. Logophile 16:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Lindsay_Lohan_Remixes

I researched and followed what I believed to be the correct course of action. Did I jump the gun; did I step in where an admin should have trod? Apparently. Was I attempting to "disrupt" something? Absolutely not. Has the assumption of good faith gone out the window? You tell me. One Wikipedian's edit summary—"what are you doing?"—might just as well have included the untyped "the hell" for the tone it took. This was not a pleasant experience... RadioKirk talk to me 23:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I was just wondering

I was just wondering if it was just me who thinks aladin is notable. Thanks for verifying the Times - although if you see my discussion page girlinwhite did that a while back. Not that they pay any notice at AfD. Now - what more than a three page article in the world's leading newspaper could establish a person's notability? Probably the spread aladin got in the Asian Age! Call me a cynic about this one. Autumnleaf 01:41, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we have a new team on the aladin page - my subcontinental crew and you! Let's keep on the case. I just realised the photographer is quite famous on the portrait of aladin in Asian Age. Now - who do you know in London who could check up on a few more press things? I am joking of course - I have texted there already. Autumnleaf 02:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I know you've probably seen this but I've found this: Inside Magic.com article Don't know how useful it is, good luck. Englishrose 15:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Afd and merges

I think you have a somewhat non-standard view of what Afd means, with respect to merges. There's a bit of discussion on this at Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion#Is_vote_for_merger_binding_on_destination_article.3F that you might want to read. Merges and redirects can be done by anyone at any time. Of course, if there's disagreement, you talk it over on the talk page, just like any other content dispute. Articles are subject to editing at any time. A prior Afd is not meant to prevent normal editing of the article after it's over. Friday (talk) 19:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The situation is relatively simple. You did not perform a merge. I undid the redirect. The AfD outcome was Keep, not merge. The discussion above is not relevant. -- JJay 19:55, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe it's relevant to the issue of your understanding of Afd. You were mentioned specifically there. As for the content issue on Mootstormfront, that talk page is the right place to discuss it. Friday (talk) 20:13, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

• Do you really believe I am not aware of that discussion? If you checked the article in question, you would see that the material has been merged, per the AfD, to the general satisfaction of everyone involved. I understand AfD. I also understand the meaning of merge and keep and redirect. I wonder, though, if you are familiar with the concept of a back door deletion? -- JJay 20:19, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I found nothing to suggest one way or the other whether you knew about it, that's why I mentioned it. I guess we can only conclude that we have different opinions about what a prior Afd means. If you feel that a merge on an article with a prior Afd is a "back door deletion" (and thus a bad thing), I'd encourage you to make this point on Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion where more people would see it. Friday (talk) 20:44, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Message from Zoe

Please stop attacking AfD nominations and nominators, or I will start deleting your comments. User:Zoe|^(talk) 03:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

• Could you be more specific? -- JJay 03:41, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Attempt to remove all Jewish lists

Hi. An attempt is being made to force the deletion of all Jewish lists from Wikipedia. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Centralized_discussion/Lists_by_religion-ethnicity_and_profession#Proposed_amendment:_remove_most_Jewish-related_lists and my compromise proposals at Wikipedia_talk:Centralized_discussion/Lists_by_religion-ethnicity_and_profession#Proposal_to_make_Jewish_lists_and_categories_historical_only. Thanks Arniep 10:04, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Home and Away

Hi, you have voted in the afd for various Home&Away character articles. I have had a go at combining all the articles in a single article (which I admit still needs a lot of work). You can find it at Current Home and Away characters. I suggest we keep this article are either delete or re-direct the others. What do you think? I've given a couple of reasons on the deletion page why I think one aticle is better than individual ones. Thanks, Evil Eye 13:07, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

My comments

Please do not hesitate to continue to tell me when I say something you think is out of line. There's no tone of voice in text, and I'm always happy to err on the side of not offending. If you'd like, I'll dig up some diffs where I've given it good to people who nominate with "NN D". A nomination that does not both clearly state its reasoning and provide some evidence that the person had done some research really does no one any good. Not that mine are always perfect, but I do try.

I'm now off to redact.

brenneman^(t)(c) 01:13, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

RE:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/East Ukraine - Shave a monkey and call him dad. It would have been nice to have seen this one before it turned into a free-for-all. - brenneman^(t)(c) 01:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Zoe and I pretty much share one brain in two bodies... which probably explains our respective behaviors. I won't comment further on the whole inclusion/deletion factionalisation, but I like to think that I'm not in any camp.

When it comes to people's reactions to the manner in which recomendations are expressed, there is a drunkard's walk analogy. If someone came and said "delete everything" than clearly that would not be compatiable with the goals of the project. There would be no project. But if someone says "keep everything" than the arguments as to why that is incompatiable with the goals of the project are more nuanced. Thus (here's the drunkard's walk) extreme deletionists fall into the ditch and vanish, while extreme inclusionists bounce off the wall and hang around.

This means that the distribution of views does not end up being symmetric, but left skewed. Combine this with the fact that deletion debates are structurally slanted strongly in favour of keeping (mostly for historical reasons to do with the way the database functioned) and you can see why people with mid-range views can get frustrated with someone that they perceive as an extreme inclusionist.

And I normally do try to watch out for flare-ups on AfD, but I've been pretty busy trying to make everyone be rational and civil elsewehere! *cough* user boxes *cough*

brenneman^(t)(c) 02:04, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

List of sexual slurs

You voted to cleanup, can you be more specific. Do you want to prune the list or remove it? Thanks.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 19:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Ummm

I realize you don't approve of merging, but there is no reason for you to do a merge template removal as you did here. This is unhelpful to the discussion and disrepectful to other editors. I'm glad you explained yourself on the talk page, but where's the harm leaving the template up? It may draw in more people to comment on the merits of the merge. Friday (talk) 15:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I realize you enjoy redirecting, but why don't you start by participating in the talk page discussions? Furthermore, at what point were you respecting other editors when you redirected the page without discussion? -- JJay 19:02, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Man, you sound like you're trolling when you say things like that. Can we talk about the articles instead of sniping at each other? I didn't redirect it, I put a merge tag on. I was hoping someone else would comment on the merits of the merge. Now that people have, I've added my two cents. Everyone has their own opinions, and I don't object for one second to you opposing the merge. I do object to you removing the merge template prematurely tho. Friday (talk) 19:13, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you even keep track of your edits? To refresh your memory, here is a link to your edit redirecting the page. [14]. You did not explain this redirect, on the talk page or anywhere else. What gave you the right to shutdown through this unilateral redirect an ongoing discussion on improving the article, in which you were not a participant? You also did not seek to explain the merge tag you later placed on the article until after it was removed. The fact that you do not like an article's contents does not give you license to suppress the article. I would strongly ask that you consider respecting other editors and normal procedure. -- JJay 19:30, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, you're very right, I had previously redirected. What I thought we were discussing was the merge tag I added later, sorry for the confusion. Anyway, I redirected because I thought it was best. You reverted because you disagreed, now we're discussing it. It's called bold/revert/discuss and it's a very normal way for things to happen. I did nothing that wasn't easily reversable, as you know (having reverted it). I don't see where the problem is. Friday (talk) 19:36, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

"non-working redirect"?

I was confused by an edit you made with a summary of "rv non-working redirect", please see Talk:Mootstormfront#non-working_redirect. Thanks. Friday (talk) 22:39, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Arrgh. To me it really, really looks like you're just being intentionally unhelpful here. Please consider how your responses might look to others. Note that the use of misleading edit summaries is highly frowned upon. I asked nicely for clarification, so I don't know why you'd bother responding in such an unhelpful way. Friday (talk) 22:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm rather busy. If you have a problem I can help you with, please let me know. However, your continued disingenuous distortions are growing tiresome, such as above where you first accuse me of trolling, deny redirecting, then admit I was right. In short, I can not devote all of the very limited amount of time I have available for this project in responding to your incessant inquiries. I would strongly suggest that you find a more useful way of contributing to wikipedia. -- JJay 23:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I was honestly asking. The redirect looked ok to me when viewed as a diff, but I see now it didn't really function correctly. I still wish you'd have fixed it instead of reverting it, but I see now that your edit summary wasn't misleading at all. I apologize for assuming otherwise. Friday (talk) 23:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Democracy AfD

You wrote: "What is more troubling is your propensity to only question votes that do not adhere to your line of thinking. In my opinion, that sort of rigid tunnel vision is best avoided if we want to build a viable project that serves the interests of all users. -- JJay 05:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)"

Do you want me to refute that? Do you really want me to provide links to diffs where I give stick to people for saying "delete" with no rational? We're often on the same AfDs, I'm sure you've seen it. And, to be frank, I don't want to build a project that serves the interests of "all users". The project has goals, and I'm interested in users who support those goals. - brenneman^(t)(c) 05:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

If you have some links that are worth seeing, why not? Can you also point me to the page that lists project goals (and I don't mean guidelines or policy). Otherwise, thanks for being frank. -- JJay 05:55, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Man, that was meant to be rhetorical. Now I have to dig through my contributions! Lucky I'm scrupulous about edit summaries. - brenneman^(t)(c) 09:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Link dump

These are in reverse order, just the last eight (?) times I saw that I gave someone my opinion of AfD. I haven't (willfully) biased the sample, just took what came quasi-randomly. I won't annotate, I'd prefer you just looked for yourself. - brenneman^(t)(c) 09:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
[15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22]

This is good stuff. I don't have time to make observations right now, but do you have links that date prior to Jan 1? -- JJay 10:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Goodness, you want blood. I'll try, but then I'm afraid I'll hit a rich vein of me giving stick to people who way "keep" and everything will collapse. - brenneman^(t)(c) 10:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Err, too cryptic?

Yea, if it doesn't make sense than revert. I thought that it was totally transparent. Trying to eliminate the most eggregious "stick something in a list even if only twelve people say it" entries using the bluntest of tools.

There are mostly two urls per edit summary, but only for deleted entries. It took me a few tries to figure out what would fit. For things that looked like they were protologisms but appeared to have some provenance, I pasted the link in html comments.

Which entry was footnoted?

brenneman^(t)(c) 09:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

But if you do feel the urge to revert, please try a few of the links first, to get a feel for if you think I've been to aggressive. - brenneman^(t)(c) 09:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The list needs to be pruned. There's no doubt about that and I hope to participate if it survives AfD. The footnoted term you removed was woofter. Also I almost never use standard google for references, I source using books or publication databases. -- JJay 09:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

(Goes back to look at woofter in history.) Oh... an actual proper footnote. So rarely seen in the wild, I did not even recognise it. My apologies. - brenneman^(t)(c) 10:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Your contributions

Please take this in the spirit in which it's intended.

I was looking for a particular item in my history, and couldn't find it. Recalling that you had commented on my comment, I looked at your contribution history. It's pretty striking. In your last 500 contrubtions, over half have been to AfD. That's a lot.

I'm a pretty heavy participant in AfD. Out of my last 500 contributions, 55 have been to AfD, and that includes the ten that I've closed.

I understand that you've got some pretty strong feelings regarding what should and shouldn't be included. I also note that the contributions that you do make to mainspace are fantastic. [23] But your time and energy would be much better spent making more of those and less time arguing on AfD.

The simple fact is that well written, well referenced articles about notable topics are very _very_ rarely deleted. Using the Jewfro example, merges result in no loss of information. I love merges. It's just not efficient to spend your time "saving" things. You'll wear yourself out. brenneman^(t)(c) 02:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea in what spirit you intend these remarks. If you want to analyse my contributions, fine. I suggest you look a little closer at this [24]. 85% of my contributions are directly in the project space. This excludes the roughly 800 articles I've tagged as speedies, copyvios or submitted for AfD (far more than you have). I am thus responsible for deleting far more articles than I have saved. Furthermore, looking at your contributions, I note that fully 45% (2900) to date are to user talk pages and the like. This includes 375 posts to your own user page. I might say that all that talking could wear you out but it's really none of my business. I might also suggest that you spend more time improving articles, but again that's none of my business. However, I do not see why you feel entitled to offer advice on how I spend my time. I also do not understand why you felt compelled to tell me of your love for merges. Please save those sort of personal revelations for your user page. -- JJay 02:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I'm "entitled" to offer advice because it's Wiki and almost anything can be edited by almost anyone. That doesn't mean that my advice is worth anything, or that anyone has to listen. Delete it all, it doesn't effect me.

I'm sorry, that link doesn't work for me, but I'll take your word for it. In fact, considering that I used my user page as my de facto Sandbox/ToDo/LinkRepos for ages, I'm suprised that it's not higher. And yeah, I like to talk and yeah I could spend that time some other way. My observation is, though, that quite a bit of that talking is about wikiwork, and that it's productive discussion.

I see you've got your back up, which is exactly why I started this. AfD is stressful, and you seem to be mixing it up quite a lot. But that's up to you.
brenneman^(t)(c) 04:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

What one can do and what one should do are often two entirely different things. -- JJay 04:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I see you are still monitoring my contributions. I find that flattering and sad at the same time. -- JJay 07:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, I wanted to see if you were using that amazon search as a reason to keep and counteract it if you were.
• I've looked at that link you provided, and there seem to a couple of things you're confused about.
  • Zerothly, of undeleted edits: 2202 (your project) / 3586 (your total) = 0.61, not .85, and 1954 (my talk) / 65420 (my total) = .30, not .45. Project talk isn't really used for "talk".
  • Firstly, XfD is in project space. So, since I couldn't find any edits to policy or anything like that, roughly 60% of your time is spent arguing on XfD. That's worse than I thought.
  • Secondly, the deleted edit count isn't quite what you're thinking. If you make three edits to an article and it gets deleted, that's three. As you make lots of edits to pages on AfD, it's probably not a record of that many speedies, etc.
  • Penultimately, user space included not just my user page, but everyone's, and all subpages as well. So if I make ten edits to an article I'm creating and then move it into main space, that's zero mainspace edits and ten user space edits.
  • Finally, editcountitis can be fatal. It's not the numbers, it's what you contribute.

brenneman^(t)(c) 13:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

RfA

Hi there, I couldn't dig up anything on whether or not you were already an administrator, so excuse me if you already are, but I would like to nominate you for an RfA. I have seen you around on AfD, as I spend much time there myself, and I believe your reasoning and commitment are commendable. I think you would make a fine Admin. If you have no objection, I will nominate you as soon as I receive word that you will accept it. Contact me either on my talk page or on yours, I will watch this page to await your reply. Thanks, and good luck! Werdna648^T/_C\^@ 03:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I have to say that I am both flattered and surprised by your message, particularly as I don't think we have chatted previously. I particularly appreciate the comment about my "reasoning and commitment", since both are challenged on a daily basis (as shown by many messages above). However, I don't feel that I can accept something like that at this time, because I have been here for less than four months and also because I think my time is better served by contributing directly to improving articles (and contributing to AfD discussions as needed). Furthermore, any nomination would probably lead to a messy fight that would really not be in the interest of the overall project. Thanks very much and I hope we get to collaborate in the future. -- JJay 03:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

You've saved me a hell of a lot of time when voting in AfDs, normally you hit the nail on the head and I can just put "per JJay" (which I do in about 1 in 10 AfDs I vote in). Just thought you had the makings of an Admin, which I hope to be at some stage anyway. Cheers, Werdna648^T/_C\^@ 09:37, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Stockton Massacre

I see you echoed my comments on the Stockton Massacre discussion page. I was rather peeved when my nice straightfoward clean-up (IMHO) of the article was reverted. Rather than getting into a revert war, however, I decided to leave the situation sit for a while. I left an admin a note on the matter, but he said that resolving these questions wasn't his strong point.

Well, that was almost a month ago and the article hasn't changed. So, what should we do about this?? I've been considering going for mediation. Your thoughts?? Madman 00:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the article is good, except for the fact that it doesn't mention the murderer or victims names. Why are you opposed to the gun control information? -- JJay 01:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that a discussion of gun control belongs here, no. This sort of discussion belongs under "gun control and assault weapons" or any some other gun control article. This article is supposed to be about the Stockton Massacre but spends most of its time discussing the cons of gun control. It shows an anti-gun control POV by quoting the Violence Policy Center's strategy on the matter.

And, no, the perpetrator's name is not mentioned, nor the victims, although the victims' names seem to be difficult to come by (I've looked). Madman 23:14, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

list of sexual slurs

Why not move this into sexual slur as its own subsection, with a different name?Voice of All^T|@|ESP 04:18, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Works better as a list for now. Also your continued redirects are not helping. Please stop doing that so we can rebuild the list per the talk page discussions. -- JJay 04:20, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

We can build it as a subsection, I don't see why this is anymore difficult. Why does it have to be its own article, when the two article could form one stronger, more coherent article?Voice of All^T|@|ESP 04:22, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

It is very counterproductive to be focusing on that when we are trying to establish criteria for the list. Please try to contribute constructively to the discussions. -- JJay 04:25, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Now that comment is just borderline trolling. You know that we are already in close agreement over the requirement you just put up, which is more progress than anything in the last few weeks here. If you merged this into Sexual slur, I would not have to bother you s much over this list issue.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 04:34, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Anything that needs to be said can be said on the List talk page. Please refrain from personal attacks and assume good faith. -- JJay 04:37, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

"Borderline trolling" is not a personal attack, and "Please try to contribute constructively" is not assuming good faith. This is why I am irritated, this is why I call things like "borderline trolling", because you don't assume good faith on your part and that is exactly what you accuse others of doing.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 04:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Anway, I would agree to use the list page, for now, but it really should be merged when it is about finished. Is that ok?Voice of All^T|@|ESP 04:42, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Seth Ravin

An AfD you participated in is now at deletion review. - brenneman^(t)(c) 23:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

B-Movie Poster of Virtue

File:Night of the Living Dead 2.jpg

For believing that the dead may not vote yet still heeding their chill voices from beyond the grave by taking on cleanup of the article, I award you the B-Movie Poster of Virtue. Herostratus 05:07, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the award, although I don't feel that I have done much on the list so far. Maybe you could help out? BTW, nice job on Stockton Massacre- looks much better. -- JJay 11:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Aladin Again

Was the result of the vote to keep the article or was it to redirect it to Aladdin? Or am I missing something? Englishrose 14:00, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Help needed: 2nd deletion request for Afshar experiment article!

A crackpot is again requesting deletion of the article. [25] Your vote would be appreciated. Prof. Afshar 18:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

List of sexual slurs talk page

I wanted to clarify my last comment on the talk page and ask your opinion without it being part of the debate over there. When I said that I wanted to put together a list of terms and then get the references, I meant on the talk page, not the actual article. It occured to me you might have thought I meant in the article itself (which would of course would be counterproductive to everything we've discussed).

What I meant was that I thought perhaps we could develop a short proto-list on the talk page, with perhaps 10-15 popular terms under each category. We could generate the terms, but no term would be put in the actual article without references. I thought this would give us a chance to arrive at major terms we all agreed on (and debate the ones we didn't), and then we'd find the references for each terms before putting it in the article.

I'm concerned that the page is currently just at a standstill, so hope that we can move forward.

What do you think of this idea? StrangeAttractor 14:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. It's true I didn't understand what you meant at first. Thanks for the clarification. -- JJay 17:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

DreamGuy

JJay, hi, I wanted your opinion on something... I have been attempting to follow the dispute resolution process to ask DreamGuy to cease his personal attacks. However, every time I post something on his discussion page at User_talk:DreamGuy, he simply deletes it, and accuses me of harassment. He's also deleting comments by User:Englishrose, and those of a third party. I spoke to an admin about it, and they advised me that for now, I should try to get other opinions. Could you please take a look at the page's history, and let me know your thoughts on the situation? Thanks. Elonka 00:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I've seen the page history. I don't know what the best approach is, but I would say that User:DreamGuy seems to thrive on confrontation, personal attacks and general unfriendliness. He has no apparent interest in dialogue, consensus building or most of what makes things work here. He probably needs a daily edit war to feel alive. Unfortunately he is not the only user of that type. If possible, try to ignore his nastiness. Sorry I can't be more helpful. -- JJay 00:48, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the rescue effort.

Hi,

Thank you for rescuing the article; your efforts are greatly appreciated. Cheers! Folajimi 01:19, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi JJay

Thank you for your vote on my RfA, and for taking your time to provide diffs for your issues. I am sorry that you feel so strongly about my edit to the Godcasting article, but what I deleted was crap - see the difference between the edit prior to mine (where I stub-tagged the article), and just ten or so edits earlier [26]. I didn't mean any offence, and am surprised that it bothered you.

I don't necessarily support the 'War on Blogs' fully (and I don't like the name) - but I do feel that there needs to be a project aimed at applying quality control to the blog-related articles on Wikipedia. This does not necessarily mean deleting articles - many just require cleaning up, and I do feel that information on blogs that does not deserve an article of its own could be merged into the article on the blogger. That is my opinion, though, and I appreciate many feel differently - and I would always respect that if I were to be named as an administrator.

The name 'War on Blogs' is unfortunate. If it was called Wikiproject:Blogs or something similar, then perhaps not only would it be less controversial, but editors from the other side of the fence would be more involved, providing some necessary balance. I would note that I or any of the other people keeping an eye on the 'war' have not seen the people involved do anything against policy.

When I said Timecop was my hero, I thought it was just a bit of fun, and I certainly wasn't aware he was the leader of the GNAA. I actually had to look up what GNAA meant. I don't expect you to change your vote, so I won't ask. But I did want to explain myself a little better, and I hope that I've done so. I don't like bad feeling going around. If you have any questions or issues that you would like me to respond to, please post them on my talk page. No hard feelings. All the best, Proto t c 14:31, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

As Proto's nominator I thought I would add the following two cents: if I had thought for a second he was a supporter of the GNAA I wouldn't have nominated him and I am absolutely confident that his assertion that he was unaware of who Timecop was is genuine. I didn't know who Timecop was (if he is indeed the leader of GNAA) until you mentioned it, though I did know he'd been blocked.

I would also second the comment on "crap." In looking at the diff I take "crap" to mean "unnecessary stuff." It is a rather mild cuss. Marskell 15:22, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I object to the derogatory approach that is displayed in AfD discussions and edit summaries. Regarding the GNAA, I have commented on Proto's user page. If as recently as 2.5 weeks ago he was not aware of this group, and was capable of signing a petition without any investigation, he is not ready to be an admin. -- JJay 15:32, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi JJay. I removed my signature from the list in question about three minutes before you responded on my talk page - please check this diff [27]. I don't support pictures of Osama bin Laden, but I do support freedom of speech. And I never look at user boxes, because they are mostly silly. Proto t c 15:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

On the aladin topic

Hello JJay. I'm sorry that our first meeting would be head-on like that. You are welcome to check and pick my other edits apart, in search for anything done in bad faith. If you don't find anything, then I hope that you at least consider that my input at "aladin" isn't in bad faith either. No, I'm well aware that my knowledge of the business isn't fit to be posted in the encyclopedia, if it isn't verified in print. But the talk pages isn't the encyclopedia. Thanks to said knowledge, I'm able to find sources that are hard to find elsewhere, as well as directing focus to places where verification can be found, or where it should be found if it exists. To disregard the expertise and possible printed verification of known historians in the field, and noted publishers of trade journals, on the merits that they've met me, doesn't strike me as being fair. Had for example David Berglas said that aladin was a good performer who keeps to himself - that statement would not be suited for inclusion, but it would have been a good hint that it was worth the effort to find more sources. And the input of his son Marvin Berglas (head of the toy company "Marvin's Magic" ), who makes a lot of effort on finding and hiring young and deserving magicians in England - his opinion might also reveal whether it's possible to find proper verification or not.

I don't take questions like this lightly. Yesterday I searched through 9 volumes of Genii magazine (international trade magazine, 12 issues/volume) but not a single mention of aladin. I also went through Opus magazine (known british trade magazine) from 1994-1995, which is equally void of aladin's name. So far I've just flicked through the pages of Magic magazine, but I'm at this point quite certain that there will be no mention of his name there either. I was the editor of Tricks magazine in scandinavia until 1994-95, and continued with the magazine "Dr. Faustus Journal" in 1995, and got reports from all over the world. I've checked my old files, but nothing there either. There is the claim that aladin introduced Lennart Green to Ricky Jay, which is untrue. But the only places in England where both Green and Ricky Jay can have met is the McMillan convention in early 90's or possibly the Blackpool convention. I can check which year and ask Martin McMillan to check the list of registrated participants from those years, to see if it's likely that aladin has been even close to them - but as always, it's hard to prove a negative. Would the absense of aladins name from the list of participants at a convention be considered valid verification of a negative?

I'm also sorry that you believe it insulting to suffer from mythomania, but that should be considered an alert rather than an attack. I'm unfortunately familiar with it, as I lived two years with a girl who suffered from the combination Borderline personality disorder and mythomania, before I understood that something was wrong, and since then I've studied DSM-IV so hard I can quote it in my sleep. And I don't put moral values on the affliction, as I've seen the pain it causes. There are patterns that are easy to recognize for anyone with either education or personal knowledge. That is also not fit for an encyclopedia, but it should be an alert to people gathering verification that all facts has to be checked and re-checked, even down to the date of birth. That I possess a large knowledge of the field, have friends who are noted authorites and historians, and that I've got personal experience that enables me to recognize an illness shouldn't really be held against me, unless it seems likely that I use my knowledge to cause harm (check my previous edits). To avoid further misunderstandings, I will refrain from posting, researching or even visit that topic again, as I find it quite troublesome to be suspected of bad will. You are welcome to delete anything I've written there (consider that an official permission). And finally, I'm sorry that our first meeting had to be in this shape --TStone 10:27, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but again I believe your approach here is quite strange and perhaps suspect. You keep wanting to disprove claims that are not included in our article, such as the issue of the Ricky Jay introduction above. As such, I have absolutely no interest, not in claims you or others want to attribute to aladin, nor in your personal beliefs or statements that I can not verify, not in testimony from people you claim to know. As you say you are a magician (not that I have any reason to believe it's true), I find it odd that you feel the need to devote this much time to branding a magician as "sick" or suffering from a psychiatric "disorder". Since you do not claim to be a psychiatrist, and have not published a paper on the topic, your belief is not relevant and constitutes a personal attack. I have repeatedly warned you about this, but you seem obstinately disinterested and would appear to have something else driving you. However, you have convinced me that magicians probably suffer from a range of disorders, such as uncontrollable envy, covetousness, greed, jealousy and spite. Perhaps you could contribute an article on the relationship between these primal forces, backstabbing and getting ahead as a conjurer. I'm sure you would know where to begin the research. -- JJay 13:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I haven't read the aladin piece in a while, and have assumed it was locked until agreement had been reached. That isn't the case? The version I read included things like the claim of introducing Green to Ricky Jay, among many other untrue things.

And the inclusion of those things are what I assumed you were fighting to preserve - and is that a bad thing to have the idea that an encyclopedia should contain reliable and accurate information. It is true, as soon as I looked into the matter, I noticed a pattern that still haven't been contradicted. This I kept to myself, until I felt that I had to alert people that research were tricky (still assuming the version I had read were untouched). I'm sorry to say this, but it is you who are out of line putting moral values into something that is nobody's fault. I might be totally wrong in my interpretation, but then I'm totally wrong and not something else. I do not feel the need to put quotation marks around sick and disorder (I've mentioned the latter, not the former. And if you don't understand the difference, you should check DSM-IV). It is a bit distasteful that you assume that suffering from a condition is such a bad thing, because it isn't. Therefore you are equally wrong in putting moral values on my interpretation. If I'm wrong, I'm just wrong - and if I'm right, it's just a sign that facts have to be checked and re-checked. That is the only difference that matters in the context of putting an encyclopedia together.

However, I'm trying to improve myself. I spent many hours of research before recognizing a pattern defined by DSM-IV. That might be wrong, but I still spent many hours. How many hours of reseach have you done on me, before branding me with uncontrollable envy, covetousness, greed, jealousy and spite, as well as backstabbing and getting ahead as a conjurer? To me, these words seem more designed to cause hurt and pain, more than what I have ever written in my life, because I can not find anything in this mess that I covet. And greed? Where would my "profit" be. And how am I supposed to be envious of being totally unknown by all noted magicians around the world? And backstabbing? Compare this with my edits on a person of whom I actually do have a grudge with. See talk page of Fearson's floating cigarette.

Anyway, my mistake was to assume that the page had been locked, and that you faught to keep untrue things in. I still find it strange that you claim that the guy is known as a magician, and say that it is irrelevant what the ones who keep track of the business have to say. Oh well, I'm not going to think more on this now. I wish you well in finding further sources that confirm your beliefs --TStone 15:23, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I do not know what your mistake is. I also have not branded you as anything- if you read my post above, I said: "magicians probably suffer from a range of disorders, such as uncontrollable envy, covetousness, greed, jealousy and spite". I probably should have also included anxiety, paranoia and OC disorder in the list. The statement was not addressed to you since I have no knowledge nor can I verify that you are a magician. It reflected what I have come to believe about the profession as a whole. Perhaps the DSM-IV has an entry for those suffering from the irrational delusion or need to claim that they are magicians. This is clearly a topic that demands further research and there are numerous sources that examine mental illness in the magic context. Since you have an interest in the area, I would point you to the following study from the NIMH [28].

Finally, regarding aladin I have no "beliefs" and make no claims. I merely report what I read in the press, which is all we are meant to do here. -- JJay 15:59, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh come on JJay, there's no need for rethoric little scams like that. That only makes you look dishonest. You are entitled to have an opinion, so why shy away from it? Why not the full quote? "However, you have convinced me that.." - meaning that you have formed your opinions on a whole sector of people based on observing me - clearly including me. I think you gain more respect if you stand behind your own words.

And is it really clever of you to claim that you incapable of proper research? "nor can I verify that you are a magician" - well if you can't even verify that :-) Good luck trying to verify your beliefs... even rather unnoted working magicians usually get 10-20 newspaper articles written about them (I consider myself to be rather unnoted among the general public, and I guess that anyone searching would just find around 90 mainstream newspaper articles about me, in scandinavina, Portugal, etc, during the period 1984-2005). Someone as noted as your hero here must surely have a lot more press than that, and some day you might even find it, if you keep on digging :-) Any day now, you will find the "fabled Magic Academy of Banglador", and the second recipient of the "Gold Turban", together with a magic formula that makes it possible to become famous without ever getting known by collegues or the general public. Keep on digging! :-)

There were no bad will in anything I said before. It might have been unpopular and in one aspect possibly wrong, but no bad will. I tried to talk and find common ground, and you replied with bad will. I clarified that you were mistaken in a few assumptions, and even gave an example that I do my best to be fair, even when I have personal reasons for a grudge - and once again you replied with bad will. All based on your unfounded belief that someone is known for something he's not. Well, since you have tried so hard to portrait me with bad will, I hope you are happy to hear that you now finally have got it. --TStone 17:16, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Why you persist in your conception that I would seek to verify or even care about your profession or lack thereof is beyond me. I am not in the habit of asking wikipedia contributors about their professions. Frankly, I prefer knowing as little as possible about the people who post to this page. That should have been extremely obvious for some time now. Your accusations of “bad faith” are thus quite unfounded, although not surprising given some of the comments from your user name on the aladin page. As a general remark, I would say it is best to avoid editing articles where one has an emotional attachment or personal stake.

I guess it is your right to misinterpret my comment regarding the magic profession- to believe it was addressed to you- as you have misinterpreted all my statements here since the beginning. Your numerous posts regarding the presumed psychological disorders of encyclopedia subjects made me reflect on the possibility of a generalized psychological instability of those involved in the magic trade. The more I thought about what could motivate individuals to pursue such an unusual line of work, the more I came to believe that this industry must be a seething cauldron of unfulfilled dreams, dashed hopes and delusions of grandeur that can only result in frequent acting out and other psychological manifestations. I would also assume that magicians work infrequently, giving them enormous spare time to reflect on their presumed failings relative to other participants in their industry. This must create enormous stress for those trying to get ahead, or even survive in such an industry. Of course, I am not a psychiatrist so this is mere speculation.

Furthermore, despite your affirmation, I also have no beliefs that I need to verify. Nor do I have a “hero”. I have done no "digging" on the aladin page, nor do I intend to. I merely try to keep articles in line with wikipedia policy and NPOV. I hope this helps to clarify things for you. -- JJay 17:51, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I twisted and turned a few times, but it's no use since your analysis of magicians are very close to my own :-) I'm sure that you are uninterested in this, but since you are so close.. Yes, it seems likely that getting an interest in magic is a coping process. For someone without power, it gives power of know a "secret", you become someone.. That's only at the start though, most get the "hang" of it after a while and gets in sync with life in general. Most of them turn out to become very kind people (or kind and really strange). So, on the first part, you are not totally off. The second part? That depends more on how often you make the calls to the booking agencies. If you like work the phone, you can get performances all the time. I don't like it, so I wait for people to call me. Meaning it can be a bit irregular, where I do extremely much work from October to January, then a bit slow, totally dead on the summer, picks up again in August, and quite alright until October again.

If I get any "enormous spare time", I seldom reflect on presumed failings of other's in the field, I usually take a beer with them and let them tell me instead. And usually it turns out that the "enormous stress" usually are related to some girl, rather than survival in the business... Man, the field could easily support 40 more magicians just in scandinavia, so competition does simply not exist. Having a collegue to chat with is more important, so arguments are uncommon. Jealousy is more or less unheard of. No, it is a good life, and most involved are good persons and supportive of one another.

And yes, you've clarified a lot for me. More now, since I noticed some of your other edits. Maybe your own advice is valid? :"I would say it is best to avoid editing articles where one has an emotional attachment". Now, good luck finding verification for your beliefs! --TStone 21:43, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Singapore Airlines fleet

To avoid cluttering the afd page anymore, I will comment here. I apologized for my statement that you interpreted as an attack. The very least you could do would be to apologize for your attack on me. I have no desire to "lecture" you. However, responding to apparent attacks with further attacks is indeed counterproductive and against Wikipedia policy. Dbinder 16:06, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

• Please demonstrate where you feel I attacked you. -- JJay 16:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

My apologies for calling you a vandal. Maybe you could apologize to the people you called vandals for removing spam from California State Polytechnic University, Pomona.--Curtis Clark 15:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

What you label spam- the description of a student activity- I call information. Please don't waste my time with slang expressions such as spam. Lastly, anons who repeatedly remove material from an article, without a valid explanation, qualify as vandals. -- JJay 17:21, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

So registering with a pseudonym makes you special?--Curtis Clark 19:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

No, but hiding behind your IP doesn't make you special. Using sock puppets doesn't make you special. That's just stupidity. -- JJay 20:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I hope that's not an accusation hiding behind a general statement; it will lower my opinion of you even further. (My IP, btw, is 134.71.14.176. It's DHCP, so it might change in a narrow range. What's yours?)--Curtis Clark 22:39, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Your opinions hold very little interest here. Why do you believe this is a forum for your opinions? -- JJay 22:46, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

You have shown an utter lack of civility, education and regard for this site through your asinine behavior at the Cal Poly Pomona page. Whereas you have no problem leaving vile, hate-filled discussion missives to others, you threaten to remove them from your own page to hide your true self. Frankly, I believe that you are practicing what I will call wiki page-stalking by running a notifier to let you know when someone removes your useless dribble so that you can quickly reinsert it. You are forcing others to see your unreasonable, pointless, unwelcome and irrelevant writings, which by the way meets the very definition of graffiti, aka vandalism. Are you running bots on Wikipedia? Is it your routine to violate TOS? I think you are touching pages for no other reason than misguided personal hubris. Ingyhere 09:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Get a life. -- JJay 13:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Edina High School

Thanks JJay. Out of curiosity, where did you get 1903 and trojans? --Dystopos 02:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that my contributions were "part of" a dialog with Denni, though the choice of where to contribute was certainly provoked by that conversation. As for "talking to a wall", sometimes it pays to sharpen one's arguments against a hard surface. --Dystopos 03:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

• Perhaps true, but your work speaks for itself. -- JJay 03:46, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Aladin (magician) moves

I see you undid the move -- while I was posting an explanation of the situation, i might add. I also see that you did NOT move the archived talk pages, so tht those links are now broken. If you are going to undo page moves, please undo them throughly. I would like to ask you please NOT to do any more page moves on this topic, except to finish the one you did by moving the archived pages, until there is agreement. i am making the same request of Elonka and others involved. Please read my commetns on the talk page. Thank you. DES ^(talk) 17:43, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

(copied from User talk:DESiegel):

Not sure what you people were trying to do here. Elonka asks for opinions on apage move then moves the page the second anyone objects. That's completely out of line and a controversial page like this requires a lot more time before a move. -- JJay 17:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Elonka reported on WP:ANI that consensus for the move had been achieved, that she had already moved the article, but had been unable to move the talk page (because the new ttitle already ahd a talk page that was non-empty). I took her at her word and simply completed the move making all talk pages match the article. I should have double checked the talk page to verify the consensus, and if I had I would have acted differetly. You have now moved the article and the talk page back, but (last time i checked) left the archived talk pages at the other title. Plese finish the move you did by moving those talk pages also (or indicate that you won't and let me do so). Then, when everyone is agreed on a place to move this to (if consensus is obtained) please let me, or some other relatively uninvolved editor, carry out the move, if there is to be a move. Thank you. DES ^(talk) 17:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

JJay, I give you my word, I did not "immediately move the page in response" to your post. They happened around the same time. You've done enough editing on the Wikipedia to know how time can pass... You edit a page, enter in information, preview it, save, and then find out that something else changed while you were in the edit screen.  ;) I promise you, it was an accident. I'd already seen your earlier comments [29] where it appeared that you didn't care what the page title was, and I was unaware that you had changed your mind. Please accept my apology and assume good faith? I'm willing to gather a new consensus, to keep everyone happy. Elonka 18:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

• Please see my recent comments at Talk:Aladin (magician). Thank you. DES ^(talk) 18:23, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

• Look all I know is that I saw the new suggestion for a page move while the page was still called "Aladin". After typing a response the page suddenly moved. What I may or may not have said 8 days ago is also no longer relevant given all that has occured in the last few days: 1) a massive fight over the Fateh page talk page (involving Elonka); 2) questions raised in the last 24 hours over other possible stagenames for the magician aladin; 3) questions raised in the last 24 hours regarding aladin's real name. With these issues still very present, any move at this time appears misguided and rather suspicious to me. Furthermore, consensus is not achieved two hours after leaving a talk page message (which I noticed by accident). The page concerns more than a handful of editors and a decision requires time. There is no urgency here. -- JJay 18:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

• JJay, I'm genuinely sorry about the cross-posting. I have added a new "Straw Poll" section to Talk:Aladin (magician). Please weigh in at your leisure, thanks. Elonka 18:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Aaron_Brenneman_(second_nomination)#Comment_on_JJay

In this section of the discussion on Aaron's RfA you say "The comments from freakofnurture, Johnleemk and Lar are mischaracterization and deeply insulting". I'm not sure what comment of mine you were referring to, but it was not my intent to insult you or anyone else. If you can let me know which comment you meant, and how it was a mischaracterisation I will redact it immediately. In any case let me assure you no insult was intended, and further, I sincerely apologise for any insult you perceived. ++Lar: t/c 17:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your message. The line I objected to was the following:

It takes a particulary nosy sort of person to notice that it seems like someone always votes keep and do some investigation to see if it's essentially true or not,

As we have never previously interacted, I am sure that you did not intend a personal insult and that your comment was derived from the other remarks on the page. The summary I made there regarding my record can be easily verified. Whether you choose to strike your comment or not is up to you. However, you should note that Brenneman did not accuse me of always voting keep, he accused me of over-participation in AfD debates. He alternately described my contributions as 60% AFD, >60% AfD, or "This user's main contribution to wikipedia is to AfD". I continue to believe that this was: a) none of his business; b) false and not based on any serious investigation; c) character assassination motivated by his discomfort with my voting keep in his AfD nominations. At the point when he posted his comment here regarding "my contributions" there was already extensive bad blood between us. That he had the gall to claim during his RfA that he was reaching out to me or just wanted to talk is absurd. -- JJay 18:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify, in case it wasn't clear "particulary nosy sort of person" refers to Aaron, not you, as he was the one digging into YOUR record, and although he and I are (I think?) wiki-friends, it wasn't exactly meant as a compliment! I'm happy to strike the comment (or modify the comment to make it more accurate as to what he was digging into), as you prefer, just LMK in your reply. I guess I can see both sides of "what other users do is none of one's business"... I am a studier of community and the many ways that people choose to contribute is one of the fascinating aspects of it. Personally I think if one has enough background to contribute to AfD meaningfully, it's a very useful contribution type indeed, many people don't give it a lot of attention, which is too bad, and I'd say thank you for doing it! I was doing it for a while but it can be quite draining if you don't have the right mindset. But on the other hand it IS a bit nosy, isn't it, to go mucking about in peoples contribution records that way? Gall is something Aaron does not have a shortage of, but it's one of the reasons I supported his RfA. We need more gadflies and iconoclasts to keep us honest, in my view. Finally, I'm sorry to hear that there was or is bad blood between you guys, if there is anything I can do to help get you guys to an understanding, please let me know. Happy editing! (PS: I watch talk pages for a while after I start threads, so I will see your reply here, I figure you probably figured that out already but just in case... PPS: I'm inclusionist, so thanks for voting keep whenever you can logically justify it!!! ) ++Lar: t/c 19:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The 'Bruckner Problem'

I've left a message on the talk page about a title--you may be interested. Thanks. Chick Bowen 17:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Whidden Hall

Please do not keep undoing other people's edits without discussing them first. This is considered impolite and unproductive. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. Ardenn 21:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Look I don't know who you are, but this message is completely out of line. "Other people's work"... are you joking? Have you even followed the talk page discussion on the merger?. Also do not cite wikipedia policy to me. Thank you. -- JJay 21:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

You are in danger of violating the three-revert rule. Please cease further reverts or you may be blocked from further editing. Ardenn 22:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

You apparently have difficulty understanding my meaning- such as when I typed "do not cite wikipedia policy to me" just above. Since you are reverting without participating in an ongoing discussion you are clearly not interested in dialogue or editing this encyclopedia constructively. Your uncivil attitude is uncalled for. Any further message from you on this page will be viewed as harassment and will be stricken...Is that clear? -- JJay 22:09, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

My RfA

Thank you Hello JJay, and thank you for your support in my request for adminship! It passed with a final count of 63/4/3. I am honoured by the community support and pledge to serve the project as best as I can. CanadianCaesar The Republic Restored 17:05, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Whidden Hall 2

Hi I noticed we share a similiar POV on the Whidden Hall article. It seems that Friday and Jonel would do anything to de-value the page and lets not forget Ardenn. I just noticed Jonel has once again re-directed the page back to the McMaster page before it was even discussed. Is there anything to stop this kind of behaviour? Btw, are you an admin? or shall we bring an admin to solve this simple issue which somehow escalated into something so fustrating and complicated. 24.57.131.18 04:14, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi. No, I'm not an admin and there is not a lot you can do when faced with a handful of editors who spend most of their time trying to remove decent articles from the encyclopedia. Most of them don't have the skills to add content so they think they are achieving something by redirecting. The McMaster page is now a joke, full of the use of the nonsensical "traditional" to describe dorms. They had no explanation for removing the description, nor the competence to do research and add real info to the Mcmaster page. They spend lots of time on each others talk pages, but very little considering that the information they see no use for might be useful for others. They are prisoners of their small-minded POV and not capable of seeking compromise. Sorry for the rant. For any further communications please use email. -- JJay 04:31, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Golden State League

Thanks for the help with the Golden State League article. I never thought putting it up for AfD would get it cleaned up so quickly, or at all. When I first saw it, it was in such a bad state that I didn't think it could be rescued. And then it came back to life! Just one quick question: where did you get that book reference? Did you just happen to have that book lying around?? Carcharoth 07:21, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the message. I was glad to add some info because I think the story behind these independent baseball leagues is kind of fascinating. More could even be said about Golden State if someone wanted to look at the financial problems that led to its rapid demise, stranding season ticket holders and leaving the municipalities holding the bag. Regarding the reference, it's actually not a book but rather an article from a Jersey paper that did an excellent feature on the league and independent baseball after Golden State folded. They were covering the story because of planning for the Atlantic League, which was heating up at that time. I subscribe to all the major press archives (Proquest, Newsbank, Ebsco) covering 1,000s of newspapers so I can pull up these articles very quickly. This is handy for improving articles. -- JJay 07:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Added another comment to Talk:Golden_State_League#Rename.3F. Not sure if it was on your watchlist or not, and it's been a while, so I thought I'd drop a note off here. Carcharoth 10:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Whidden Hall

It would be better for everyone involved if you'd use the talk page just to discuss changes to the article, and not as a place for complaining about other editors. I think everyone involved is trying to improve the encyclopedia, we just don't always agree on what's an improvement. A little bit of "assume good faith" goes a long way. Friday (talk) 15:05, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

If there are particular comments you object to then strike them out. Otherwise, I see no compelling reason for you to post here. That you monitor this talk page is your business. That you use it to intervene in pages where I am engaged is perhaps your right. However, as previously indicated (see conversations above), I have no interest in responding to your name calling and accusations on this page. All communication between us should be handled on a given article’s talk page. I will not respond to further messages from you here. -- JJay 23:35, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Look, I don't know how I offended you so much, but whatever it was, I apologize. It wasn't intentional. All I'm saying is, I found some your remarks on Talk:Whidden Hall a bit snide and unhelpfully antagonistic, particularly the one about editors "destroying the article by any means possible". We're discussing a merge, that's all. We can disagree, but let's keep things civil. Can we start over and assume good faith? Friday (talk) 02:51, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

If there are particular comments you object to then strike them out. Otherwise, I see no compelling reason for you to post here. -- JJay 23:35, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

GAMEY

PROD was removed once by someone who later changed their mind, and no longer objects, and was removed a second time by a new user in their first edit. I think it's safe to say those are not "obvious objections". Particularly since in neither case did anyone actually state a reason for taking the tag off, without which the process can't work.

Advice on an article?

Hi there. I recently came across this article, Project_Quicksilver, and noted some concerns on the talk page. I was wondering what the best way is to proceed from here? Is there a non-encyclopedic POV tag that can be slapped on an article? Is there a convention that it is OK to talk at length from the POV of a fictional world? Sorry to ask you these questions. Is there somewhere that summarises the different ways to critique an article, and how to draw attention to them (if you are uncertain how to correct a possible problem yourself)? Carcharoth 11:14, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Filipino actor stubs

Hi Jjay. You contributed to the (withdrawn) AfD on Olivia Cenizal - thought you may (or may not) appreciate the heads up.

I've put a list of all the stubs I originally tried to batch nominate here, and I'll go through them systematically.

As you are clearly someone who feels very strongly about articles being deleted, particularly if they are non-Western, I thought I would let you know that I don't plan to AfD any of these now, at first. I will tag them for proposed deletion, giving any contributors five days to fix the articles up to assert notability and find suitable verification. I have started to go through them myself. Any I can find an IMDB page for, or any other reasonable sources, I am instead tagging for cleanup. I am sorry if my original method to try and clear these stubs up did not sit well with you. All the best, Proto||type 14:19, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

How can we resolve this?

Why are you accusing me of stalking you on various talk pages? What can we do to resolve this conflict? I've tried to "bury the hatchet" as they say, but it didn't seem to work. I'm sorry for whatever offense I have caused you. Is it possible to start over? Also, fyi, I was going to email you instead as your talk page instructions indicate, but it says you can't be emailed. Friday (talk) 23:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, I have asked you repeatedly not to post any messages on this talk page. To refresh your memory here are the diffs [30], [31], [32].

Since those messages as well as the notice on the top of this page were not clear enough for you, let me make this very plain: Do not post messages on this page. For any reason. Ever. Do not email me either. For any reason.

You have called me names on this page and then apologized. You have accused me, repeatedly, of doing things I didn’t do. And then apologized. This talk page is not a sounding board for whatever problem you may have. It is not a social club. It is not a venue for personal attacks. Nothing requires me to have to endure your continued harassment on this talk page. Nothing entitles you to try and poison my participation in this site.

Secondly, for two months you have stalked my participation at wikipedia. Here are just a very few recent examples:

1) 07:21, 13 February 2006- I'm thanked for writing the Golden State League article [33]

• 18:22, 14 February 2006- User:Friday makes first appearance on Golden State talk page suggesting merge[34]

2) 20:08, 1 March 2006- I remove Prod on SourceryForge [35]

• 22:24, 1 March 2006- User:Friday makes first appearance suggesting page should be deleted [36]

3) 08:01, 14 February 2006- I receive message on talk page regarding GAMEY [37]

• 15:28, 14 February 2006- User:Friday makes first appearance to nominate page for deletion [38]

4) 12:14, 28 February 2006- I revert rediect of Brighton Road [39]

• 14:52, 28 February 2006- User:Friday makes first appearance places merge tag on article [40]

This behavior is serious and I suggest you reconsider in light of WP:STALK and its potential ramifications. I suggest you find another way to contribute that does not involve trying to drive editors away from this site. I suggest you cease trying to poison my participation in this site.

Thirdly, there would be no conflict between us if you did not stalk my participation. Why? Because we do not have any kind of relationship. We have never had a relationship. We have never collaborated on an article. To my memory, you have never added any content to an article I have worked on. You have never added any references to an article I have worked on. You have never added wikis, cats or copyedited an article I have worked on. What you have done, repeatedly, is to place merge tags without explanation on articles I have worked on. You have, repeatedly, without explanation, redirected articles I have worked on. You have, repeatedly, nominated for AfD articles I have worked on. This is not collaboration.

If you did not spend your time stalking me, our paths would not cross, particularly as there are now 1 million articles here. That leaves you at least 998,000 articles where you are unlikely to encounter me. That leaves you wide latitude to merge, redirect or even practice your XD habit of blanking pages without any input from me.

It should be relatively obvious that the only way to « start over » would be for you to stop stalking me and to stop posting messages on this page. -- JJay 21:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Amnesty for the Communards

[41]: you changed from 1889 to 1880. I'm guessing you are right, but could you please provide a citation? - Jmabel | Talk 03:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Masters of Deception

Nice one JJ, always fun to lock horns. Seriously, who do you expect to establish the notability of an article - editors who vote to delete and have no knowledge of the subject matter, or editors who vote to keep and claim the subject is frequently in the news? Instead of putting the links on the AfD page, why not actually edit the article and put them there? I'm an editor first and a deletionist second, you sometimes seem to be an inclusionist first and an editor second. I'm not saying that everyone who votes to keep an article is obliged to improve it but in some cases - and I believe this is one - you just have to put your money where your mouth is and worry about the article rather than the AfD banter. I don't want to see this deleted if it is notable, but if it is notable I want the article to reflect that. Much love as always Deizio 22:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

• If you've changed this heading from Masters at Work because you think people are conspiring against you and trying to delete articles you've voted to keep (I believe you call it wiki-stalking) then I'm truly sorry. Just delete the whole comment rather than have it point to the wrong article. Deizio 00:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Why? We both know what we're talking about. There is also a very clear notice at the top of this page, which asks that people not post here and that also states that all posts can and will be edited.

Anyway, I wanted to consider your points first before I responded. Particularly this line: I'm an editor first and a deletionist second, you sometimes seem to be an inclusionist first and an editor second. Naturally, before I can respond to that I need to examine your edits. However, I can state right off the bat that "notable" has no meaning to me at all. It is a hopelessly POV concept that never enters into my thinking on AfD or anywhere else here. -- JJay 00:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Analyze, by all means. I agree to some extent about notability being highly subjective, but games need rules and thems the rules. Verifiability is, however, more tangible and extremely necessary. A lot of my earlier ire comes from my perception that you sometimes selectively ignore the principle that "The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.", courtesy of WP:V. Now I don't mind doing some research and seeing if an article that interests me for whatever reason is kept, even if at first I think it's rubbish. I will never be able to agree with a decision by another editor to make a keep vote (much less a keep plea) especially if backed up by signs they have done some research, if they refuse to help verify the article they claim should be kept. Deizio 01:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, I wanted to consider your points first before I responded. Particularly this line: I'm an editor first and a deletionist second, you sometimes seem to be an inclusionist first and an editor second. Naturally, before I can respond to that I need to examine your edits. However, I can state right off the bat that "notable" has no meaning to me at all. It is a hopelessly POV concept that never enters into my thinking on AfD or anywhere else here. -- JJay 00:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, having now compared our edits for one day (i.e. March 6), it looks like you weren't doing any serious editing until you suddenly got motivated with the Hmong stuff. Prior to that you were mostly participating in AfD. I had already created one article on a High school and added content or references to various other articles. Therefore, rather than complaining about it, you should thank me for allowing you to state truthfully that you are an "editor first and a deletionist second". Also, if you intend to continue, I'd be happy to send you any of the articles from the link I provided.

Otherwise, the driving force for me in AfD is participation. I believe the only way that article quality, and by extension wikipedia, can improve is through massive participation. Every deletion drives editors away who care/cared about the material being deleted. If something is verifiable it is good enough for me. Notability is meaningless. What is really "notable" to me would interest very few people. What is notable for you is probably not notable to me. The quality of the article doesn't matter to me either. Since I view this as a very long-term process that should continue well beyond my lifespan, the actual state of an article at a given moment in time is completely unimportant. Now I don't object to people who have a different point of view on this. What I do object to are derogatory comments such as those you made initially. Lastly, regarding your point about "editors who vote to delete and have no knowledge of the subject matter"- I don't believe anyone should participate on AfD if they have no knowledge of the subject matter. Keep, Delete, merge: expressing an opinion without doing your homework is a very dangerous game.-- JJay 01:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Man, I can't believe that I'm having edit conflicts on this page despite the warning. Despite that, that point that you and others like to quote from WP:V just makes me laugh because it's taken so wildly out of context. I also don't believe games need rules, and "notability" is not the rule here for me. Finally, regarding your new comment, you should know I always do research before voting on AfD. I always google the topic. I always check our other coverage. I always check the topic on Newsbank and other databases. What I choose to do after that is up to me. -- JJay 01:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

• I don't think comparing one arbitrary day is useful as what kind of editor you are is built up over weeks, months and years. I've been looking at a fair bit of AfD stuff the past couple of days but check out the days before that and you'll see I was doing a lot of article creation & improvement... It annoys me too when I see editors offering opinions on every single AfD, just this evening I contacted one editor who has been putting "delete per well made nomination" on every page. That's not even deletionism, that's just upping your edit count. I too look for issues that look interesting and are not foregone conclusions, find out about them and vote. Many people don't agree with my "better articles through deletionism" approach but it works and I can prove it, not least with the school article we were bantering about a while back when we first talked. As to taking the WP:V point out of context, games not needing rules, or any other point, I have little more to add because you've made it very clear that you don't want your methods, motives, edits, opinions or votes to be judged, indeed you believe nobody can effectively judge them because you are so fundamentally individual in the way you live your Wikilife. I think that's wonderful, so have fun with it. Deizio 02:08, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok fine. Nice sarcasm at the end but that's cool. I have to admit that I don't remember talking to you about a school article, but it must be my advanced years. You are right that a one day comparison is not fair. Any more comparison though would have bored me to tears. -- JJay 02:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC) PS. Not sure if I mentioned it above, but I liked what you did with the two AfD articles. I would change my votes to merge except that could create problems down the road if someone wants to expand one of the articles to the point where it needs to be demerged. -- JJay 02:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

• Nice one. That really wasn't sarcasm btw. I'm an idealist too... Deizio 02:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Re : Nomination for adminship for (aeropagitica)

Hello! Thank you for taking the time to vote for me in my recent request for adminship It ended successfully with a final score of (40/10/5). I value all of the contributions made during the process and I will take a special note of the constructive criticism regarding interacting with users in the user talk space. If you have questions or requests, please leave a message.  (aeropagitica)  17:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I didn't vote for you but good luck. Try editing articles. It's fun. -- JJay 17:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Filipino movie stubs

Hi, JJay. Could I ask that if you state an article is verifiable, please could you provide a reference (it doesn't need to be an online reference) to back this up? It would make assessing the validity of an article on AfD a lot easier. Proto||type 11:57, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Personal Attacks against me

Please see my response to your unsubstantiated personal attacks against me in this deletion debate. I have repeatedly argued that the general concept of fuck truck is notable while a specific college shuttle is not. At the worst, my feelings that this is true have become stronger and, admittedly, I have become less willing compromise and name the article after this one shuttle. I have made a fairly large number of good faith edits. My intention is not to make a joke (see the explanation of what I am up to on my user page). I would appreciate an apology for your efforts to defame me and my good faith actions. Interestingstuffadder 00:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Your actions in the two debates speak for themselves. I have no interest in defaming you, which is why I quoted from your own comments. If you make good edits all the better. But strongly arguing in 12 posts to keep an article, then a few weeks later nominating it for deletion using the complete opposite argument is a violation of WP:Point. Nominating an article for deletion unless the name is changed to one that you find to your liking is a further violation of WP:Point. That's the way I see it.-- JJay 00:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Please see my comments on the deletion debate justifying my shift in position. Briefly, I argued to keep this article because I believed that it could become an article about the notable general concept of "fuck truck". the new, wellesley-specific name precludes this article serving that general fucntion and limits it to being an article about a specific college shuttle bus, which seems patently non-notable. this is why my point of view changed. How is this rationale bad-faith or a violation of WP:Point? If you truly would have read my comments (including those on the move debate on the target page's discussion area), you would see that I have previously stated this rationale; that is, I have repeatedly stated that it is the concept of "fuck truck" that makes this article notable. Interestingstuffadder 04:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

• And you continue to refuse to respond to my arguments and leave in place your damaging comments. This is starting to look like bad faith. Interestingstuffadder 13:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry you feel that way, but your position makes no sense at all. This is an encyclopedia designed to give people information. It is not a forum for in-jokes. You posted 12 times last month to try and save an article from deletion. The name of the article has since changed but the contents are the same. You nominate that article for deletion because you are unhappy with the name and based on the opposite argument you gave repeatedly last month. It is not a personal attack to point out the inherent inconsistencies in your actions. Other than that, this is not the proper forum for arguments about the future direction of the article. You would be better served making those arguments on the article talk page. You might also try editing the article, for example expanding the "fuck truck" segment, if you really have something to say on the matter.-- JJay 17:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

You will see that I acknowledged the perceived inconsistencies and changed my vote. However, it should still be pointed out that I provided a fairly rational account of why the name of this article does matter (see above) and you refused to even acknowledge this, instead arguing that "my position makes no sense at all" and accusing me of just trying to make an inside joke. I dont see what is so nonsensical about the argument that fuck truck is notable as a widespread folkloric term and an individual bus in boston is not notable. In fact, other users have stated and agreed with similar arguments. Also, even if my positions are somewhat inconsistent, is there a policy against changing one's mind as the debate unfolds and he is conviced by others' arguments? I am a good faith editor, have made many constructive edits and have reverted quite a bit of vandalism. All I ask is that you stop calling me names and levelling accusations at me and perhaps take the radical step of actually responding to my well-reasoned argument of why the name of this article does matter. Unfortunately, you seem unwilling to move past name-calling. Interestingstuffadder 04:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Bodymap

Hi JJay. I've just been reviewing my involvement in articles for deletion and I stopped at this one. I don't believe consensus was reached and may have changed my vote given more discussion. I'f you'd like to request debate is reopened or WP:DRV I would support that. Not that it will change anything in the long run, but it might. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 10:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi and thanks for the message. I agree that there was no consensus because those on the delete side gave no reasons for deletion and probably didn't even read the articles in question. However, the other problem is that those articles were copyvios. The simplest thing would be to submit a new/non- copyvio article on bodymap, thus avoiding DRV, which is an utter waste of time. -- JJay 11:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. Good luck with it if you create new ones. I'm sure I'll see you round. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 13:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

mall afd: "this is not a blog"

Dear JJay,
You're being harsh. My intention was to draw attention to the important message - it's a certain no-consensus, and I wanted to make sure the admin didn't gloss over it. I won't go and revert it - but regardless, you've been mean. It's not nice to be mean. - the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 17:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

"still friends?" of course. - the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 19:07, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Mall

JJay,
We're drafting the document, and will eventually post it for people to comment on. Because you were so vocal in the Riverbend Mall debate, I am inviting you to join in our deliberations. Feel free to tweak the text and/or add comments.
Regards,
the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 20:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

• Always wreaking havoc in the AfD's I propose? Hafta go and change peoples' minds? I love you like a brother. Thank you for doing what you do - keeps losers like me in check :) - the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 03:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

• Hey, thanks for the kind words. Just calling them like I see them I guess. But you're no loser. Sooner or later you'll find the right mall...and I'll vote delete like everyone else. -- JJay 03:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Concerns about Chinese Rock

I tried proposing it several times. However, many people (or some) object the idea of having it deleted after 5 days by letting admistration board notifying it.

I created that page because I assumed there could be more than two different definitions. However, I did not appreciate that kind because that was all I researched.

Why should not it be deleted? Should I or someone put it under debate of making it deleted? Why or why not? —69.27.173.21 20:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

In response to your message, JJay, to my IP address, I understand your logics. Unfortunately, no one even knows or cares about that page. There's only two defintions of the phrase, one is genre and other is song. Should we let others know about it? If not, should we make a debate (I mean votes) of this deletional situation? 69.227.173.21 22:51, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Your comments on 911 In Plane Suite

JJay - I'd suggest that your commments here: "designed to intimidate," "distorted summaries," "Yeah, whatever," were outside the bounds of civility. - brenneman^{L} 03:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry you feel that way. -- JJay 03:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Good to see that you are as civil to everyone else as you were to me when we were on opposite sides of a deletion debate. Interestingstuffadder 03:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, but at least Fuck Truck that bus is still here so everyone is happy. Add anything interesting lately?

Well, I'm certainly not happy that wikipedia has one more non-notable article wasting its server space. And not so much lately, you have any good ideas? Interestingstuffadder 03:28, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

• "Non-notable article". Surely, you jest. Bang Bus Boston is an ode to the erotic underbelly of MIT, a mondo unmasking of the underground Wellesley, the wet dream of shuttle busses worldwide, a source of inspiration for future Henry Millers and J. G. Ballards, boldly going where encyclopedia articles have never gone before. Well you get the picture. If I get any good ideas you'll be the first person I call, oh adder of great stuff. -- JJay 03:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

While I must say I appreciate your sense of humor, I remain a bit bothered that you accused me of acting in bad faith and never responded to what you must admit was a reasonably well formulated justification for my actions. Interestingstuffadder 04:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Email me if you really want to talk about that, or I'll email you. I will say that while your many posts here on the topic have convinced me of your good faith (which was rather difficult to assume at first), your justification is a bit harder to swallow. -- JJay 12:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Your bad faith comment

Had you taken the time to review Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools you would have noticed that 1) I created the page 2) a suspect sock puppet of a banned user added links to pages that did not have articles. I removed those links and thus the fork that is up for AfD was created. I removed the links added a speedy tag and a AfD tag. Don't assume bad faith without reviewing the full situation. Instead you listened to possible two meat puppets of the suspected sock that has a off wikipedia webpage that aims to put Christianity at wikipedia. You can read the full discloser at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Jason_Gastrich. Arbusto 01:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry, but accusations of puppetry don't really interest me and are not even relevant to the discussion. You knowingly mistagged the article as a speedy nonsense- hence my comment. If you really thought that there was some kind of patent nonsense, you would have mentioned it in your nom, which you didn't do. As far as I can tell, your reasoning for creating TRACS is not really the issue here either. -- JJay 01:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, my creation is part of the issue. If it is truly a "bad faith nom." then why would the creator of the main page want the list deleted? Claiming it to be in bad faith makes no sense in that context. Arbusto 01:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• Please reread my comment. I said that the speedy tagging looked like bad faith to me. I still believe it was bad faith because it looks like a blatant attempt to delete something you don't like through the misuse of a speedy tag. That is a slippery slope that leads to complete anarchy. As to your question, the immmediate response is what I call "ownership issues". You created the page for whatever reason, but don't like additions from other users. I say deal with it through editing, not AfD. -- JJay 01:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I mistakenly put the wrong tag on. If you keep the TRACS list then you will head down the slippery slope to include the 13,000 schools accredited by Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. Which had the beginnings of a list that I removed a month ago.[42] No, I did not create that article so my feelings about accreditation lists are across the board and have nothing do to with "ownership." Arbusto 01:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

School lists are fine with me. Whether there are 13 in the list, 1,300, or 13,000. I hope as well that we do articles on all those schools. Eventually, I think wikipedia will have articles on every school in the world so lists are certainly helpful. -- JJay 01:51, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Fine, but I contacted you here to correct your bad faith claim. Arbusto 02:02, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

You mean to ask for details? It took you quite some time to claim you made a mistake. If that is true, then I retract my accusation of bad faith regarding the speedy mistagging. -- JJay 02:07, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

RfA Results and Thanks

JJay, thank you for your constructive opposition in my recent RfA. Although it did not succeed as no consensus was declared (final: 65/29/7), I know that there is always an opportunity to request adminship again. In the meantime, I will do my best to address your concerns in the hope that when the opportunity for adminship arises once again, you will reconsider your position. If at any time I make any mistakes or if you would like to comment on my contributions to Wikipedia, you are more than welcome to do so. Regardless of your religious, cultural, and personal beliefs, I pray that whatever and whoever motivates you in life continues to guide you on the most righteous path. --- joturner 05:29, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Why are you following every single page I edit and add?

Why are you following every single page I edit and add? You have added nothing to the articles. Arbusto 00:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm reviewing every page we have on Christian colleges, accredited/unaccredited colleges, diploma mills etc. My interest in this was raised by the article on TRACS that I recently discovered. There is a massive amount of mistakes, sloppy sourcing, no sourcing, POV, etc that needs to be cleaned up. The lists are especially troubling given the almost complete lack of sourcing and the fact that we lack articles on most of the component "institutions". These subjects need to be treated correctly and as per guidelines. Please review WP:RS, WP:Cite, WP:V and WP:OWN. Cheers-- JJay 01:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

How is doing this[43] 8+ times correcting "a massive amount of mistakes, sloppy sourcing, no sourcing, POV." As you posted in that edit summary "is your problem???" Instead of doing this[44][45][46][47][48][49] why don't you expand the article you want expanded or do research add stuff?

Oh and so you can correct your own mistakes Independent Baptists are fundamentalists[50]. I suggest you click and read some of the links before you remove them. Arbusto 01:24, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Regarding your comment, it is standard practice to only link once in an article as per Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context. There is thus no need to list terms under "see also" that have already been linked in the article body. As to the ABBC page, I reviewed their website and they do not refer to themselves as "fundamentalist". They refer to themselves as Baptist. Since no other source was provided for the article, I replaced "fundamentalist" with "Baptist". I would remind you that it is not for us to make judgements, bur rather to report data based on WP:RS. If you have a source that calls ABBC "fundamentalist" then please correct my "mistake". Otherwise, I would ask that you adjust your tone here and try to refrain from POV when editing. Cheers. -- JJay 01:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Accusing someone of distorting facts because of their "hardcore POV" is a veiled personal attack that is designed to discredit. I could accuse you of having an obsessive desire to remove this article fueled by your "hardcore POV" dislike for people named Jackson. I didn't do that. What I did do was make a comment that is fully backed up by the facts of the situation. CNN has an audience in the millions. They ran Jackson's story repeatedly over a period of days. Many more millions read about or saw Jackson via all the other news outlets that picked up CNN's ball so to speak. I can point to story after story that discussed the emotional impact of Jackson and the effect he had on people. The fact that that bothers you is a demonstration that you should not allow your POV to get in the way of common sense. -- JJay 12:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Nothing unexpected about it. If you are going to accuse someone of "hardcore POV", now or in the future, you should expect a reaction. You admitted in your nom that you had never heard of Jackson outside of wikipedia. You wrote: "He's one of the thousands of faces of victims of the storms". How do you explain then that CNN used him as the lead-off in their "quarter century of newsmakers" article [51]? Or that PBS called him "One of the first noticeable people during Katrina" [52], or that the BBC sought him out in December. Or that he received a car and a house from benefactors. The media caught Jackson by accident and made his circumstances internationally known. I believe that our role as an encyclopedia is to reflect that for posterity. I believe people in the future will see footage of the event and want to know what happened to Jackson. That is how I keep wikipedia in good shape. That you disagree is fine. Just don't attack me for having a different opinion. -- JJay 18:09, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

No, the point is your comment was unnecessary and a violation of WP:CIV- a bit like your message above. Furthermore, my statement demonstrated no more POV, hardcore or otherwise, than your statement that Jackson was "one of the thousands of faces of victims of the storms". A statement I might add that ignores the evidence. Other than that, I'm glad you've had time to peruse my user page. Since I have absolutely no interest or need for your advice and distorted observations, I suggest you heed the warning at the top. Goodbye. -- JJay 17:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC) -- JJay 17:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Your comment on RGTraynor

I took a look at the diff you cited in your opposing comment on RGTraynor's now withdrawn RFA. Although I neither supported nor opposed him, I think your comment was a little strong. If you read not only the article being AfD'd but also who the author was (and read the author's article on his own professional wrestling career), you would see that calling that article "vanity" was not much of a stretch. -- DS1953 ^talk 19:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry you feel that way. I did not look at either the article in question or the author. What I did look at was Mr. Traynor's Speedy Delete: per WP:VAIN. As you probably know, WP:Vain is not a wikipedia policy. It is, therefore, also not a criteria for speedy deletion. I expect admins and prospective admins to uphold CSD criteria to the letter and most certainly not to invent new criteria when its suits their purposes. This is essential. I hope RGTraynor bears that in mind the next time he submits or is nominated on RFA. -- JJay 23:08, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Alan Cartwell

You re-inserted "researcher" - I would say that is problematic. A career total of under 30 published papers is well below the level normally expected of an active academic researcher in these fields. A hundred or more would be much closer to the mark. Here's the list for a friend of mine (with no Wikipedia article that I know of): [53] - this guy is around 40 and still publishing actively. I'm not going to remove the word, but I don't tink it is necessarily accurate or neutral in context. Just zis Guy you know? 22:45, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

How would you describe him then? The papers, I assume, were not about conspiracy theories. They apparently concerned medical research. Therefore, describing him merely as a conspiracy theorist, when we go on immediately to say that he did medical research, is inaccurate. I do not know of a litmus test that determines when someone has earned the right to be called a "researcher". I would also imagine that quantity is not the sole criteria, but that quality is a factor. Your friend may have significant output; that may not make him a "researcher". So I guess my question to you is: why do you believe that labeling him a "conspiracy theorist" is more accurate or neutral in context than "retired researcher and conspiracy theorist", particularly since the article as it stands, presents no more evidence of Dr. Cantwell's "conspiracy theories", than it does of his "medical research"? -- JJay 23:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)