Talk:Boeing 787 Dreamliner

Operators section

I think the Operators section should be removed. Wikipedia isnt a travel guide. What do you think? --JetBlast (talk) 10:43, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Huh, "Operators" is a standard WP:Aircraft section (see WP:Air/PC) and has been for 4 years or so. Many or most aircraft articles have this section. I don't see why this article should be different. -Fnlayson (talk) 13:48, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

sorry about that, i have never noticed them before. :-) --JetBlast (talk) 14:06, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Not a problem. The section should be reformatted more like Boeing 777, Airbus A330 in a few months after more operators get 787s in service. -Fnlayson (talk) 14:14, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Emergency landing

CNN just reported on an emergency landing because of dubious engine problem. Any word on that you guys? --Camilo Sánchez Talk to me 22:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

http://news.yahoo.com/boeing-787-emergency-landing-inspections-ordered-005248202--sector.html 80.156.44.33 (talk) 08:41, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

The recent electrical system issue(s) is mentioned Boeing 787 Dreamliner#Service_entry_and_operations now. An United Airlines flight made an emergency landing in early Dec 2012 because on a mechanical problem. I can't find anything that stated an engine failure was the initial cause for this incident. -Fnlayson (talk) 16:53, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

787 Operator List (in information box)

United and Ethiopian each have four 787 delivered aircraft. They should both be listed in info box. This would still make a max of 3 additional carriers and one primary user. If United is out, then using the "logic" of this edit, the "see other operators" should be placed under JAL.

I am editing back.

Hans100 (talk) 22:37, 20 December 2012 (UTC)Hans100

You're completely right. Even if ET and UA weren't tied, 1 (one) "primary user" and 3 (three) "more users" are what is suposed to be listed. Every other aircraft type on Wikpieda from the A320 series to the B777 series has 1 (one) "primary user" and 3 (three) "more users" - DONALDderosa (talk) 18:24, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

DonalDderosa, thanks for the support! One thing I would add is the following which is different than what you said. In this case, since there are several airlines tied at three, if United only had 3 the rule of list a primary then two and "see list of other operators" would be correct. But since United and Ethiopian are tied at four and the next highest number of aircraft is three by a carrier, both United and Ethiopian should be listed. If for some reason we get a bunch of airlines tied at four (taking it beyond three additional carriers, then it would seem ANA, JAL, and then "see list of other operators" would make sense. Otherwise we would be picking a winner among those tied to be listed. As more aircraft are delivered, this issue will not keep coming up.

But clearly as of today: ANA, JAL, Ethiopian, and United are the list to use.Hans100 (talk) 03:35, 21 December 2012 (UTC)Hans100

THANKS DONALDderosa for keeping on top of this issue and moving United to #3 per flightaware!Hans100 (talk)Hans100

Just remember that flightaware and similar are not reliable sources. MilborneOne (talk) 08:40, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I sorted the main table and sorted table from planespotters.net references 1 and 2 in text box

planespotters is not a reliable source either. MilborneOne (talk) 15:11, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

DONALDderosa you really should discuss using these amateur websites before re-adding them again. MilborneOne (talk) 20:05, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Clear Writing

I enjoyed reading this article but the following sentence is unclear. It seems to be missing a verb or something. "Japanese industrial participation was very important to the project, with a 35% work share, the first time Japanese firms had taken a lead role in mass production of Boeing airliner wings, and many of the subcontractors supported and funded by the Japanese government." I would fix this if I knew what it was intended to say. Specifically, what is confusing is the phrase "with a 35% work share" and "...many of the subcontractors supported and funded..." I suggest that it ought to be three separate sentences, and possibly more. Can someone fix it? Anewcharliega (talk) 21:20, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Agreed - it's confusing and at least missing a 'were' from the last clause, so I've had a look at the relevant source and I've rewritten this bit as "Japanese industrial participation was very important to the project, with Japanese companies co-designing and building of 35% of the aircraft. This was the first time outside firms had taken a lead role in the design and production of Boeing airliner wings, and the Japanese government provided support by providing them with loans estimated at up to US$2 billion" - which I hope is clearer. AliasMe (talk) 06:02, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protection?

I was thinking, I would like everyone's opinion here whether or not this article should be semi-protected. I am not going to request it yet, however, with the recent reports of issues with the 787, there is the potential risk of edit wars in the article about these issues and whether or not they are normal "teething issues". The tension between Boeing and Airbus fans are getting higher by the moment. ANDROS¹³³⁷_TALK 01:39, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not one to advocate locking things down in anticipation of edit wars. I advocate locking them down when they begin. They have not begun here, and people are behaving themselves. It does my heart good :) Marteau (talk) 02:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

OK, as if on cue, out come the nitwits. I'd have no issue with semi-protection. Marteau (talk) 07:05, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I went ahead and requested semi-protection Marteau (talk) 07:12, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Just FYI, I changed the heading Early operational issues to Operational issues, as the heading is a sub-head of Development and is therefore obviously early. For the record, I can assure you I'm 1. not a nitwit, and 2. uninterested in either Boeing or Airbus (in fact I hate flying). Ericoides (talk) 11:09, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

For the record, this edit was the one made by the "nitwit". - BilCat (talk) 12:45, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protection was denied. Marteau (talk) 13:38, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks for checking and the update. -Fnlayson (talk) 16:43, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Series of safety incidents in late 2012 / early 2013

I know these are included in the operations section, but does the recent series of safety incidents and subsequent investigations warrant it's own section in the article? It seems that this aircraft is suffering a relatively high number of teething problems even considering that it's brand new. 86.159.110.166 (talk) 10:31, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

yes, the article definitely needs one, today there was a SIXTH incident in under a week. 82.31.236.245 (talk) 01:17, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Why isn't this article covering the current technical failures and incidents with the Dreamliner around the planet? --Camilo Sánchez Talk to me 04:26, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

See the "Service entry and operations" section... at the end Marteau (talk) 05:16, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I think an "Incidents" subheading is justified - will have a look at creating one unless someone else gets there first ... please! Springnuts (talk) 07:44, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I also think a heading of that sort would be a good idea for the sake of ease of navigation. Just FYI, the Airbus A380 has a section called Incidents and accidents. --U5K0'sTalk_{Make WikiLove not WikiWar} 14:53, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I see the heading "operational issues" has been added to break up the section. This sounds like a fair and neutral heading for the section describing the problems encountered by the aircraft type - many reliable sources use much stronger language than this. I've edited the description of the Takamatsu 787 evacuation because it's description of the passengers being "safely evacuated" to say "evacuated using emergency slides" as "evacuated safely" was not in the reference and in any case it has been reported that there were 5 minor injuries with one taken to hospital for treatment. 86.159.110.166 (talk) 15:04, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Bleedless??? Lithium-ion battery#Safety lets Boeing BLEEDING!

Not a forum

Probably Airbus was right by using Bleed air for the A350. Could stop the production and ground the fleet of the Dreamliner for months, possible years: Lithium-ion batteries can rupture, ignite, or explode when exposed to high temperature. Lithium-ion batteries containing more than 25 grams (0.88 oz) equivalent lithium content (ELC) are exempt from the rule (that passengers on commercial aircraft could carry lithium batteries in their checked baggage) and are forbidden in air travel. I´ve ever questionized the safety of these things. If its true - and the possibility is NOT LOW - its a DISASTER for Boeing. Tagremover (talk) 17:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC) Is it just too early to make a redirect here from Nightmareliner? (Sorry for the bold. Ah, ok, i love being bold. But here its imho needed!) Tagremover (talk) 18:21, 16 January 2013 (UTC) Why are the batteries now catching fire: The Separator (electricity) is getting old: + and - together makes it hot. And: Capacity is getting lower, so the battery has to be charged higher. See Lithium-ion_battery#Disadvantages. (edit-conflict) Tagremover (talk) 18:52, 16 January 2013 (UTC) PS: The varying air-pressure stesses the separator, too. Tagremover (talk) 00:24, 17 January 2013 (UTC) I think it would be more in accordance with the sources, as well as easier for people to find what they're looking for if the header was changed to Incidents. After all, businessweek is asking: Boeing's 787: Will This Plane Kill You? :D .... But seriously, I think it would be better for people looking for this specific information as well as perfectly objective. --U5K0'sTalkMake WikiLove not WikiWar 18:49, 16 January 2013 (UTC) This is a very short technical analysis based on my engineering knowledge. The future will show who is right. I repeat: Above average probability that on THIS plane bleedless causes (minimum financial) bleed! I propose a section: "Bleedless" listing technology, advantages, disadvantages, related issues. Boeing_787_Dreamliner#Flight_systems, Engines and Interior is not enough. Tagremover (talk) 19:57, 16 January 2013 (UTC) U.S. regulators ground Dreamliners over fire risk I ANALYZED and predicted THIS ! Tagremover (talk) 23:40, 16 January 2013 (UTC) Editors with technical knowledge should not waste time to write the ABOVE proposed section Bleedless. I have no time to make it alone. Tagremover (talk) 23:58, 16 January 2013 (UTC) Tagremover, what is going on? You are sounding very much upset and angry. For wikipedia, I feel we should wait for the various inspections and investigations which are happening now to make some statement of findings before we publish any information about the causes of the various problems and incidents so far. It is not for Wikipedia to reach conclusions about the safety of various aspects of the 787 like engine design and battery systems. Hope you can stay calm until some more information is available. Cheers. —fudoreaper (talk) 08:20, 17 January 2013 (UTC) Fudoreaper, its sad but seems that you haven´t understood much. Because you don´t mind and care about anything? Its clearly my original research, and if you would understand a thing, than that guys like me know what they can publish in an article. I am quite proud of this analysis, which in the first part has proven to be correct (I thought FAA will take 2-4 days until they make such a strong and serious decision: But: My respect, they are good!) I chose some bold "headline language" to sum it up: In a few months, there will be a lot more guys who understand what i already know now: Thats what leading engineers are for: To make an analysis based on knowledge deep enough, make the decision and present the results and the consequences in a wide context. It seems science is not your thing, so just ignore the bold language. To others: The consequences including the other design faults will quite surely cause serious damage to Boeing for years (although Boeing will have a healthy production of especially 737 and 777 in the next few years, until the 737MAX could be delayed because the 787 eats up engineering power). Tagremover (talk) 10:58, 17 January 2013 (UTC) Wikipedia is not a forum. As per WP:NOTFORUM "Wikipedia is not a place to publish your own thoughts and analyses or to publish new information" That includes talk pages. Marteau (talk) 17:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC) You ignored my proposal of a section summing bleedless. Tagremover (talk) 02:33, 18 January 2013 (UTC) Give it up, you're "pissing in the wind" against "established editors" with WP:OWN issues who will "revert" you into oblivion... Not worth it. Is the Dreamliner Becoming a Financial Nightmare for Boeing? sees probably months of grounding. Other analysts come and join my previous stated opinion. Too many biased "America the beautiful" Dreamwriters here. That was one reason i used strong words above; but if one see the consequences, one chose them - see established time magazine. Sources: fix A350 Tagremover (talk) 03:45, 18 January 2013 (UTC) ALL I SEE IS LOTS OF GLOATING. CONGRATS YOU GOT YOUR WISH. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.32.39.11 (talk) 15:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC) If all my wishes will come true as easily.... (edit conflict) Tagremover (talk) 19:27, 18 January 2013 (UTC) Please read WP:AGF. You are clearly POV-pushing and seem to have an agenda here. ANDROS1337TALK 18:49, 18 January 2013 (UTC) First: IMHO its aggressive, to take this discussion about a somewhat biased article to ANI. You want to fight by all available means to keep some critical statements out of the article ? I hope its clear even to you: I NEVER added or proposed to add something worded like that written above. And: Those are just a few statements, plus a proposed neutral section related to bleedless, covering this here NOTABLE topic. To others: The 787 is not a bad plane, but seems to achieve no advantages of its advanced technologies (weight issues, efficiency and safety of bleedless, window-cracks), but as disadvantages design and production problems, delays and cost, and now teething issues. The next thing keeping the "Dreamliner" in the headlines will likely be the big (bigger means > must be thicker) cockpit windows, which are additionally in a line (Force vector) with the fuselage: Capturing Torsion (mechanics) and Shear stress. Currently its probably too early, but i am sure there will be some investigations with notable info for this article. Tagremover (talk) 19:40, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

So Which Factory Made All These Mistakes?

I went to this page just knowing it was going to say this was the airplane made at the brand new non-union factory in South Carolina and of course I was RIGHT!!! However it seems the plant in Everette, Washington might have made a few of these planes as well. However I checked everywhere on the front page and it does not say anywhere that all the bad ones were also the non-union planes built down in the Carolinas. Can we clear up this issue with non-union 787's? I also noticed NONE of the news stories made any reference to this issue at all whatsoever. It should appear on the front page of this article IF the affected planes were the ones built in the Carolinas by the non-union amigos. . . or whomever. Lesbrown99 (talk) 04:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

If as you say no reliable sources are reporting these issues then that would exclude mention here as well. Marteau (talk) 05:13, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

We certainly state that 787s have been assembled in Everett, and also in South Carolina. But we don't talk about how many were assembled at each, nor any differences between assembled aircraft. You are making a suggestion here that the 787 aircraft experiencing problems have been assembled in South Carolina. Do you have any information that says this is the case? If you do, please tell us, we would all be interested to read about it. If you do not, please end this kind of discussion, Wikipedia is not a discussion forum, where we talk without restraint about a topic, but a place to collect information we can demonstrate to be reliable and accurate. Speculating about causes of accidents is not a discussion of facts, and thus not what we will spend time discussing. Cheers, and thanks for giving feedback on the talk page, where we can talk about what should be included in the article. —fudoreaper (talk) 08:12, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

RIGHT, Dude! I just checked one of the places where i seen the non-union angle and it turns out it was from the comments section below the story! I will continue to find a credible citation and appreciate your help on this matter!!! Thank-You for your help on this!!! Lesbrown99 (talk) 19:42, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Lesbrown99 (talk)

An artist's impression

These An artist's impression pictures are considered original research, are they not? How can they be allowed in the article?--98.87.90.173 (talk) 21:32, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I can see no rationale for those images being included in the article. Marteau (talk) 22:58, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

The images are modified versions of the current 787-8 with a lengthened fuselage or other changes based on cited sources. There's not enough changes visually with these to amount to Original Research, in my opinion. The artist illustrations in the article are a 787-3 image (shorter wingspan with winglets), and 787-9 (lengthened fuselage), btw. The size comparison image might fall in this same group. -Fnlayson (talk) 23:09, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I have always considered original research to be a binary yes or no kind of thing and not a matter of degree. But I'll of course go with the consensus and don't really think these images matter that much considering the more pressing issues with this article and aircraft Marteau (talk) 23:13, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

On second thought, either original research is present or it is not. The changes are not from a reliable source and there is nothing otherwise notable about the images. Marteau (talk) 23:19, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Cockpit Image

The source of this image is listed as: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Boeing/Boeing-787-8-Dreamliner/1940205/L/ where there is a CLEAR copyright notice that is not Creative Commons (as the Wikimedia image citation says), and indeed says "This photo is copyright protected and may not be used in any way without proper permission." Even the image itself contains a copyright notice that is clearly not CC. This is pushing "fair use" a bit far. =//= Johnny Squeaky 01:59, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

The notice you quoted from airliners.net says it cannot be used "without proper permission". Proper permission was granted by the owner of the copyright and is documented at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Boeing_787-8_N787BA_cockpit.jpg Marteau (talk) 02:41, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Grounded worldwide status

I'm not sure if 'grounded worldwide' is the best description of the aircraft's status. It implies a permanent state, whereas the grounding is temporary and a result of specific concerns about the battery. Anyone have a better idea for status? Skrelk (talk) 03:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

'Grounded worldwide' seems reasonable because aircraft are frequently grounded for one reason or another and it's almost never permanent so there's not cause for confusion. OTOH, there's no reason why you can't precede 'grounded' with 'temporarily' if you think it would be clearer. PRL42 (talk) 07:31, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Tabulation/chronology of operational incidents

It looks like there is enough going on with the problems on this plane that it would very helpful to have a table that lists the chronology of notable incidents affecting this plane (battery fires, fuel leaks, etc.). Perhaps unlike some other areas, in aviation, pretty much any "incident" rises to the level of notability, so it is unlikely that a discussion of those incidents will be removed from this article in the future. Instead, there'll probably be thousands of pages of reports on every single incident involving the plane. So starting with a table makes sense to me. Thoughts? jhawkinson (talk) 10:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps a 2-dimensional table with time on one axis and issue type on the other axis? Or can you refer to other tables for examples? TGCP (talk) 11:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Dont think it is really needed far to much info for an encyclopedia entry, we have a section describing the incidents and grounding already. Its probably a bit over the top and I can see it shrinking once the news driven stuff is tidied up adding a table will be something else to delete later. MilborneOne (talk) 11:59, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Not a forum

Can a remind users that this page is for comments to improve the article, it is not a page for general discussion, speculation or fringe theories. Forum type discussions will be removed and continually adding forum type discussion may be seen as being disruptive, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 19:55, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Neutrality and Boeing <> Airbus and other editors fights

I see some pro-Boeing biasing at Dreamliner, but also at other aircrafts: Boeing and a lot of Americans and Airbus: Often too positive. Russian and especially former Soviet: Often too negative. Ukraine editors (Antonov): Fighting hard. Let me explain a few examples (mainly Dreamliner):

"Boeing says this system extracts 35% less power from the engines...."

Facts:

1. This is a reference of a manufacturer, a PRIMARY source: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and WP:PRIMARY. Also many editors will not accept those at all, i do under some circumstances. But here we have a manufacturer PRAISING THAT HIS TECHNOLOGY IS BETTER than competitors: CLEARLY POV !
2. "says": See ref: Boeing believes...and expects... : Thats different!
3. Are all systems included, for example de-icing?
4. 35% compared to what EXACTLY? An equally modern system isn´t meant: Airbus disputes that. Stop that biased anti/pro <> Airbus/Boeing thinking ! Technology has to be understood: But this statement is vague.
5. Reference is OLD (6 years?), a clearly PRELIMINARY STATEMENT, a time diff in which the whole system was constructed in reality. A NEWER ref of EXISTING tech is needed.

...allowing increased thrust and improved fuel economy.

1. see above.
2. "The total available on-board electrical power is 1.45 megawatts, which is five times the power available on conventional pneumatic airliners...": Sounds not very efficient: Has to be explained/detailed.
3. Advertising primary source

Result: "indisputable": Its too sad to LAUGH about. Has to be rewritten!

"According to Boeing, the 787 consumes 20% less fuel than the similarly sized 767"

This is a message of MAJOR importance, the KEY reason for the Dreamliner: FUEL-EFFICIENY ! Avoid ANY biasing, it bias the message of the WHOLE article!

Facts:

1. This is a reference of a manufacturer, a PRIMARY source: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and WP:PRIMARY. Also many editors will not accept those at all, i do under some circumstances. But here we have a manufacturer PRAISING THAT HIS AIRCRAFT IS BETTER than competitors: CLEARLY POV !
2. Outdated: [1].
3. Design changes: See the history of Dreamliner. Example:
   1. Design change: Weight increase.
   2. Design change: Range reduction.
4. Clearly ADVERTISING: "super-efficient airplane", "top aerospace companies", "unmatched fuel efficiency", "exceptional environmental performance", "exceptional performance" ...I wouldn´t trust this text a thing. Minimum this section seems to be written by advertising department, sentence with 20% just copied from old text.
5. "similarly sized 767": similarly see weight increase, and: What version, which age, what for engines? Vague !
6. 787 : What version? Vague !
7. How is that calculated? Per seat? Vague !

But:

1. ANA said 21% fuel savings. [2] But:
   1. Tokyo-Frankfort is nearly out of range even for the 767-300ER, an extended midrange-model, must be measured in shorter distances, like North-American east-coast <> Western-Europe.
   2. Vague: Per seat, aircraft, or whole payload?

And:

• A350 - direct competitor - not mentioned: Also its preliminary.

Results (major message):

• Reference as unreliable, primary, old, vague and advertising: disputed !
• 20% highly questionable (deleted), 21% (ANA) vague.
• Has to be rewritten!

"...the world's first major airliner to use composite materials for most of its construction"

IMPORTANT message.

Facts:

1. Detail: Meant is most of its weight, not most of its volume.
2. Outdated: [3].
3. Design changes: See the history of Dreamliner. Example:
   1. Design change: Weight increase.
   2. Design change: Range reduction.
4. 51%, 50% (other refs), or 49% ? Or: Much more Titanium? Boeing's 787 Dreamliner is no lightweight (Describes plane ready to flight)

Result:: Has to be rewritten.

Airbus A350

Now i´m not pro-Airbus or somewhat: But the competitor A350:

1. Is not ready
2. Not such a major change in design
3. preliminary data of unready plane

So: Easier to believe. But:

• "with up to 8% lower operating cost than the Boeing 787": 2006 reference: 787 changed: Outdated: Has to be REWRITTEN !

Tupolev Tu-144

Example for some pro-American or anti-Russian/Soviet bias: Especially the Tu-144D was a really good plane. Not copied from Concorde, but developed out of the Tu-135 variants, the Tu-125 and other not realized projects including Myasishchev variants/projects.

Low Article quality

Especially Aircraft articles seem to consist of quite isolated, ordered sentences; a list of sentences. Also articles contain a lot of info, no real concept or coherent explanation. Talk pages sometimes similar: "Does this isolated sentence comply with the following reference?" This is no real discussion.

Improvements

Must mainly be done regarding the editors. Difficult. But this anti/pro <> Airbus/Boeing war is disruptive and leads to biased, low Article quality. Talk? Discuss?

Hopefully this shows some problems and improves the article. Thanks for reading. Talk welcome. Tagremover (talk) 06:29, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments Tagremover I am sure we can look at your comments about this article. All the other comments about Boeing/Airbus rivalry and editor bias in other articles are not really relevant to this talk page so you wont get an answer here. Perhaps I can suggest that issues that you have with other articles are raised at the individual talk pages or at the aircraft project talk page - Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 11:34, 20 January 2013 (UTC)