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To remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 13:22, 1 November 2012 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 10:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC).

Niemti (talk · contribs · logs)

Users should not edit other people's summaries or views, except to endorse them. All signed comments other than your own view or an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page.

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

There are multiple issues with Niemti's editing style, including incivility and ownership. There are significant instances of clear insults, including profanity, towards other editors; more prevalent is his condescending tone and "abrasive" style. Clear ownership issues include reverting explicitly because of personal preference, reverting with no explanation and without declaring the revert. Overlapping both is his heel-dragging in GA reviews. Another issue is his flooding of the video game WP:GAN queue with nominations, a significant proportion of them substandard (and then the manner in which he conducts himself during the reviews, and renominating if and when they fail).

This has progressed to the point where a number of users have stated plainly that they are "ignoring" or "want nothing to do with" Niemti. Sven Manguard, Sjones23, Sergecross73. Given the vast range of Niemti's activity across video game articles, it's untenable that editors simply ignore him.

Examples of straightforward incivility and ownership are given below. An overlapping issue is the infrequent use of edit summaries, (except perhaps to insult others or assert ownership) and reverting or partially reverting without saying that he is doing so nor why.

Another large issue, brought up twice on the WP:VG talk page, is Niemti's saturation of the WP:GAN video game subsection with nominations, many (though in fairness, not all) of them substandard. Over the last several weeks, he has had 20+ nominations waiting at any one time, and currently has about 25 of 36 of the nominations (bear in mind that the VG project does not normally have the chronic GAN backlog that the rest of the GAN queues do). A lot of them are sitting for weeks or months unreviewed (again, unusual amongst video game GANs), possible because they are a mess and secondly because of Niemti's behaviour during GA reviews, and while editing in general.

First, let it be clarified that among Niemti's nominations, articles on characters (and less so games) are the worst offenders, and in particular, longer character articles:

The first problem occurs in the plot (or "appearances" and such sections), which have the classic problem of being written like fan fiction: in-universe problems in terms of over- and unnecessary use of fictional details (and often per WP:TENSE) and pretty bad purple prose.
The second is the reception sections, which tend to be overly long, effusive, and to unduly focus on their subjects' sex appeal. Niemti's approach to writing reception sections appears to be to use every source he can possibly find, and to select just one sentence from each to be quoted directly (his preference seems to be to use quotes which appreciatively describe sex appeal, and is otherwise arbitrary). This results in both reception sections which make the same point, or similar points, again and again; and on the other hand do accurately reflect the full range or balance of secondary opinions. This is also the reason that the longer the article is, the more pronounced these problems are.

Niemti would disagree with this analysis, but now that at least three editors have found the exact same issues, with the same articles, consensus is against him on this. More than one editor has levelled WP:SUBJECTIVE at his reception sections and he has answered this argument.

Next is the manner in which Niemti's conducts himself during the GA process, which I would prefer to describe simply as "heel-dragging", but is a combination of blank disagreement, passive-agression, the OWN-y editing style described below and other-stuff-exists arguments used to denigrate GA standards as thus appeal that he should not have to make improvements, and that his nominations should be passed despite their failings.

Lastly among the GA issues, is simply renominating failed GANs despite outstanding disputes, presumably in the hope of a rubber-stamp review.

Also worthy of note is the fact that Niemti is User:HanzoHattori, recently returned from a ban and indefinite block for incivility and an inability to work with others.

Desired outcome

Niemti will agree to refrain from plainly insulting other users.
Niemti will agree to no longer imply ownership of articles. Particularly, he will not use personal preference as a justification for reverting, and will not attempt to dictate how and if users may edit "his articles", nor what they should do with their editing time.
Niemti will agree to use edit summaries. At a minimum, he will agree to provide edit summaries when reverting good-faith edits.
Niemti will agree to put video game character articles through either peer-review or the League of Copy Editors before nominating them for consideration as Good Articles.

Evidence of disputed behavior

Incivility

Most (though not all) of these are relatively minor, but should be considered as part of the broader problems with Niemti's editing style. Here are a few instances of clear incivility:

I guess you hate chapters in most books
...now go and renominate
I told you to stop fucking up my articles, didn't I?
You've got to be kidding me, no biggie in itself, but again, and again...
SHOUTING, more shouting, more.
The reception is based only on what exists, and not something what you want to magically appear, and just yesterday you had no problems with lack of negative reception for Tifa in her shitty article from few months ago. [1] and LOL NO. It covers everything that is available, in detail and and without bias. It represents the actual real world reception of the character, not your make-believe wishful thinking that will not become reality no matter how much you demand. [2]. These statements were proved spurious.
Now, if you have something to CONTRIBUTE to the article...

Ownership

Instances of clear WP:OWN violations (most of these of these are reverts):

I really want no refererences there
thanks, I prefer it this way (warned about this here; also note that an uninvolved user commented in favour of Masem and against Niemti: Niemti did not have consensus for this)
I told you to stop fucking up my articles, didn't I? (uncivil to boot; warned for this)
nope and then really, no.
I told you to stop doing that
On a user's talk page: [3]. if you do want actually contribute, go and try to make Ryu's article a GA [...] Which I did it with Ayane [...] nearly 300 edits from this account alone, mostly in the previous month, and now you want to mess with it.
It was all quite well thought by me, see? Now, if you have something to CONTRIBUTE to the article...

The infrequent use of edit summaries also raises ownership concerns, as Niemti reverts or partially reverts without explanation nor indicating that a revert has taken place :

Examples range from the very small: my copyedit, Niemti's next edit.
To the very large: removed here (with edit summaries), and promptly readded by Niemti (with no edit summary).

The lack of edit summaries is problematic in other ways. Take the "nope" revert above: Niemti was apparently not only reverting, but instead had a much better idea regarding how that section should look, and was about to implement it. He just didn't feel the need to mention this in any of his summaries, and instead was completely shocked that the reviewer "didn't even wait for me to finish" (before failing the relevant GAN for edit warring).

GANs

It's beyond the scope to discuss individual pieces of disputed content, but here are GA reviews which complained of poor prose dealing with fiction, overly-long, effusive reception sections and/or the misrepresentation of sources and other issues:

Talk:Taki (Soulcalibur)/GA1 (Reviewer was User:Bridies; also note the opinion from a 3rd editor)
Talk:Kasumi (Dead or Alive)/GA1 (Reviewer was User:Bridies)
Talk:Jill Valentine/GA1 (Reviewer was User:Bridies)
Talk:Taki (Soulcalibur)/GA2 (Reviewer was User:David Fuchs)
Talk:Kitana (Mortal Kombat)/GA1. (Reviewer was User:Cabe6403; complained further here)

Other conduct during GA reviews

Much of what is described above and in the civility and ownership sections is pertinent to his conduct during GA reviews, but here are further issues:

Complaints by User:Teancum regarding Niemti's foot-dragging: [4] and [5]
Poor use of other-stuff-exists arguments: it's just a GA ... that's the GA standards. Not very high.. He has frequently referred to other GAs which he perceives as a mess, "a total mess" ("most GAs"), shitty, or shit, to denigrate the GA standards and thus deflect criticism rather than act upon it.
Renomination of articles: the reviewer disputed the entire structure and content of two GAN articles, Jill Valentine and Kasumi (Dead or Alive). Niemti nevertheless (re)nominated them immediately, despite them meeting the quick-fail criterion of an outstanding content dispute.
Another consternating (re)nomination, which calls into question how seriously Niemti is taking his nominations: When a reviewer pointed out that the lead didn't summarise the article, he tagged the article, his own nomination, for lead-too-short and left it. After it was failed a week-10 days later, he promptly expanded the lead, and renominated it, with edit summary lol.

Applicable policies and guidelines

WP:CIVIL
WP:OWN
WP:NPOV, specifically WP:SUBJECTIVE and WP:DUE
WP:EDITWAR
WP:AGF
WP:GACR
WP:BITE

Essays:

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(Provide diffs of the comments. As with anywhere else on this RfC/U, links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)

Attempts by certifier Bridies

I have tried to remedy the GAN backlog issues simply by reviewing Niemti's nominations in good faith (7, if I recall correctly). I am now completely at loggerheads with him: he has stated he has "lost faith" in me, "no longer enjoys" working with me and believes I seek only to insult his work. The last talk page thread exchange is this:

[6]

Attempts by certifier GamerPro64

[7] The second of two discussions on the WP:VG talk page encompassed all of the GAN, civility and ownership issues, and multiple editors voiced concerns. Niemti responded bluntly. Another illustrative diff from this discussion. Described further below.

Other attempts

First WP:VG discussion, started by User:Teancum, after a post to Niemti's talk page was ignored
Many posts have been made to Niemti's talk page about the various facets of disputed behaviour. Some are linked in the evidence section. A further example is a complaint by User:Kung Fu Man regarding Niemti's lack of neutrality "when it comes to character articles if the subject is an attractive female": [8]. Recent edit warring: [9] (Niemti's reaction: [10]). Recent ownership warning: [11].

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

I was the one who started the second thread about Niemti here. I wanted to raise awareness to his over-saturation of Good Article Nominations for the project as I saw it as a concern due being possibly one of the largest backlogs the project has seen in the four years I've been part of it. Then after noticing that he insults some of the editors in the project, Example, I saw that there were more to all this then what I originally found. Then seen later on in the discussion, he remarks "Hi guys. More GA noms are coming though. You only review if you want, you know?". Now I find that rubbing in the fact that he was planning to add on more articles for GAN childish and makes him less professional in the eyes of other editors. Speaking of Rubbing it in (I wish WP:RUBBINGITIN existed), he repeatedly mentions how he has made Good Articles and how much he's edited on them, to the point he says he's made "X%" of the edits. As the thread went no where, I do believe that this Requests for comment is the only thing that can help settle all of this. GamerPro64 02:10, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As described in the statement. When Niemti was allowed to return (having being banned and in-definitely blocked in 2008, as HanzoHattori, precisely for incivility and an inability to work with others), User:MuZemike predicted: If he gets unbanned/unblocked, I'm sure we will be discussing numerous ANI incidents, culminating with another ban proposal, within a year. So IMO this RfC is a last-ditch effort to get him to edit sanely. bridies (talk) 11:48, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Other users who endorse this summary

I'm pleased that Niemti puts so much time into his edits. Generally speaking they improve Wikipedia. However upon reviewing a given article those involved are usually met with negativity/sarcasm/indifference/mild anger when suggesting fixes/updates. Suggestions to improve references, for example, have been met with brushing off of policy and established practices. The most recent example is here. The user was invited to bring the questioned sources to the table, yet instead ignored this in favor of his/her own opinion. It's been my experience in both participating in and watching others work with Niemti that this is par for the course. I'd have no major objection if this user weren't focusing on GAN/A-Class and possibly FA, but at every step he/she questions established practices and WP:BITEs other users for pointing these out. It feels as if they're simply trying to annoy someone enough until they back down, and for all the good that his edits do this would ultimately hurt articles and Wikipedia in general. --Teancum (talk) 18:20, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
1. I also have concerns with WP:OWNership of articles as others have pointed out. He also has an issue with bending policy. As seen in the edit summary of Shank (video game) I had restored a previous edit per WP:3RR. Niemti changed it again, so I put it back the way it was, reminding him of the policy. He changed it yet again, ignoring policy to discuss changes on the article talk page. Yet here he warns another user on the exact same policy even though this editor asked Niemti to discuss changes on the talk page two weeks prior. It was not until this user created a section on the talk page that Niemti joined in. I should note, that this other user warned him of 3RR only a few minutes before his warning to that user. Long story short it's a mess that could have been avoided if he had taken discussion to the talk page as originally suggested. --Teancum (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Upon looking at the recent activity, I was immediately puzzled and appalled by what just happened. I have been working on my proposed guideline about notability for video game characters following a previous RfC discussion at WP:VG/GL regarding the use of Top X lists for video game characters. Every step he questions established practices and bites other users for pointing this out. However, I am also concerned about Niemti's incivility as well as his WP:OWNERSHIP-ish behavior on some articles, as indicated by Bridies above, as well as violations of the WP:3RR policy as pointed out by Teancum. The Shank (video game) article edit war could have been easily averted if there was discussion on the article's talk page as suggested. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:27, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Because of his unwillingness to engage in the RFC process, I am also willing to support the suggestions above as well as some voluntary sanctions. He has communication issues and disregard for cooperation, and since Wikipedia is edited by the community, no one should own any article. Niemti's comments are incoherent to the point where I make my point and simply move on. Endless arguing with this user just gets everyone nowhere fast, and quite frankly, I am clearly frustrated with his abrasive editing style. Also, being a rule follower, an ability to cooperate with others are most definitely required, as Wikipedia is a free and open encyclopedia that anyone can edit. The editor has shown that, while capable of making useful contributions to this encyclopedia, he has displayed poor communication and a failure to cooperate with others, including myself, and that is detrimental to the encyclopedia. In the end, it shows that he needs to learn to cooperate with other users, period. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:31, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
See my comments above. GamerPro64 02:13, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Full disclosure: I came here because of a message left on my talk page (diff). I have had very limited interaction with Niemti, but while it hasn't been pleasant, I cannot entirely pin the blame on Niemti. Niemti nominated the article XCOM: Enemy Unknown for a good article review. I speedy declined it because the plot section was bare-bones and had an expansion tag on it. To me, that meant it failed the completeness requirement in the GAC. I, myself, could and should have been more tactful in my speedy decline. That being said, Niemti's response was to relist the article at GAN with no changes to the article, no discussion with me, and not even an explanation edit summary. He also ordered me to relist it myself. I might have have done better with more tact, but Niemti displayed exceptionally poor communication and a total disregard for cooperation. At this time I'd like to see Niemti agree to some serious changes but would not support formal sanctions. Niemti's response to this page will factor heavily into how willing I will be to support sanctions in the future. Sven Manguard Wha? 02:15, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Because of Niemti's unwillingness to engage in the process, I am now willing to support sanctions. I'd prefer editing restrictions, probably along the lines of a six month topic ban from the Good Article process and a civility probation, but I would support a block now. Niemti needs to learn to work with others, period. Sven Manguard Wha? 05:56, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've never had any direct conflicts with, (Probably only because there hasn't been any overlap in the type of articles we edit) but I've been involved in many related discussions because I field a lot of questions at Wikiproject Video Games, and there have been countless editors who have reported/requested needing help with dealing with him lately. Every time it's the same thing. "Niemti has WP:OWN issues. Niemti has WP:INCIVILITY issues. Niemti is either bulldozing the conversation, or reverting without consensus or even edit summaries at times. While I doubt he'd believe me, I really do appreciate how prolific his content editing is, he does get a lot done. But there's just no way he needs to treat people the way he does, or give off such an attitude. Pretty much every time I engage in discussion with him, I get a long winded, theatrical response, with all sorts of preposterous exagerations, weird analogies, and semi off-topic ramblings. It's usually pretty incoherent, to the point that now, all I do is state my opinion, and then be on my way, because no progress ever seems to be made from responding to his counter-questions. Otherwise it just leads to endless arguing with a huge disconnect...
- Any ways, TL;DR version - He seems unwilling, or incapable of change at the current time, so I'd support either of the suggestions above by Sven. I think topic-banning WP:GANs is appropriate he doesn't seem to understand the requirements, so I think it would be good to basically make it so someone else has to "second" his nomination before it's actually listed.) I think all the incivility warrants a block now as well. Sergecross73 msg me 16:29, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Niemti has been part of a heated, drawn-out and pointless debate over at talk:Anita Sarkeesian. He blankly refuses to accept that Sarkeesian has received no substantial or serious from any reliable sources. In the light of his obsessive focus on the sex appeal of female video game characters, this is even more serious. If he uses talkpages as a forum for his opposition to feminist criticism of sexism in video game, articles like Anita Sarkeesian, he should be banned from those as well. Peter ^Isotalo 22:58, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The issues with Niemti dont fall in just video game related articles, but anime and manga in which he removed a chunk of reception and used subjective ideas as to why its unreliable.Lucia Black (talk) 22:55, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've ran into Niemti a few times and experienced most of the issues users have raised previously. At first I gave him the benefit of the doubt and tried to address him as an adult and suggest various things he could do to improve community relations. It's clear that my suggestions were ignored. I've found that Niemti would rather argue for days about a change that could be made in less than an hour in GAN and many of them are subpar. When I listed a GAN as looking for a 2nd opinion recently he [12] I finish the review (using 5 revisions to get the formatting of his comment correctly rather than using preview). In the end, while I may have clashed less with Niemti than others, I'm slowly being worn down by his abrasive editing style. Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 09:08, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've only encountered Niemti at Anita Sarkeesian, but he's displayed almost all of those problematic behaviors there, and that's a BLP.Cúchullain ^t/c 14:06, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
These issues remain an issue, especially regarding WP:VG and GAN. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 21:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Response

This section is reserved for the use of the user whose conduct is disputed. Users writing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section, and the person writing this section should not write a view below. Anyone is welcome to endorse this or any other view, but no one except the editor(s) named in the dispute may change the summary here.

I said I'd not comment on this sillyness, but that's becoming just completely ridicalous. Yes, of course I display "double standards" towards female characters because I'm such a pervert. That's why I rescued Larry Laffer, because I identify with him so much. That's why I created an developed Battletoads (characters), because I'm also a pansexual furry deviant and just look at them. Oh, and Cyberdemon and Tyrant (Resident Evil) evan as they lack reproductive organs. Same for Dogmeat, too, obviously because I'd like to screw a pooch. OK, this was the first and last that I commented on that and I'm not even watching it anymore. If I wanted to answer all of that stuff here it would take a lot of my time that I would actually spend editing, like I did with almost all of 27,327 edits in 3,279 different pages since March. Ciao. --Niemti (talk) 12:40, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]