Talk:Istanbul

Population

Here I am listing why I am going to change the used 13 million population from proper to urban. First the provided source from the Statistical Institute itself shows 13.120.596 as population of the city along with other suburb cities (İl/ilçe merkezleri): [1] and as metropolitan (Büyükşehir): [2], which is not population proper. I tried to found the proper population of the city, but in the Statistical institute I found only urban. Pensionero (talk) (UTC)

Spor

Tuzla İstanbul Park

Since the Byzantine and Roman periods, Istanbul is home to many sports activities; host football, basketball, voleyball and various motor races today. The biggest in the league Turkey ; Beşiktaş, Fenerbahçe, Galatasaray in Istanbul. As well as Anadolu Efes, Galatasaray Medical Park, Fenerbahçe Ülker and Beşiktaş in basketball and Eczacıbaşı, Galatasaray Daikin, Beşiktaş Bahçeşehir Üniversitesi, Fenerbahçe and Vakıfbank Türk Telekom in voleyball and Beşiktaş in handball and in wheelchair basketball Beşiktaş RMK Marine and Galatasaray teams like the city's major clubs.

Ali Sami Yen Spor Kompleksi Türk Telekom Arena, Atatürk Olimpiyat Stadı and Şükrü Saraçoğlu Stadı are in the UEFA five-star stadiums ve Atatürk Olimpiyat Stadı, hosted the 2005 UEFA Champions League Finals. Likewise Şükrü Saraçoğlu Stadı hosted 2009 UEFA Cup Final.

Which is the most important Veliefendi Hippodrome racecourse is home to the city's major races.

2012-2013 Season Club, in which the leagues, stadiums and sport halls

Football

Süper Lig

Club	Stadium	Capacity	Year Of Establishment
İstanbul BŞB	Atatürk Olimpiyat Stadyumu	82.576	1990
Galatasaray	Türk Telekom Arena	52.650	1905
Fenerbahçe	Şükrü Saracoğlu Stadyumu	50.530	1907
Beşiktaş	BJK İnönü Stadyumu	32.145	1903
Kasımpaşa	Recep Tayyip Erdoğan Stadyumu	14.234	1921

First League

Club	Stadium	Capacity	Year Of Establishment
Kartalspor	Kartal Stadyumu	15.000	1949

Second League

Club	Stadium	Capacity	Year Of Establishment
Sarıyer	Yusuf Ziya Öniş Stadyumu	10.000	1940
İstanbul Güngörenspor	Mimar Yahya Baş Stadyumu	7.589	1983
Pendikspor	Pendik Stadyumu	4.000	1950
Gaziosmanpaşaspor	Gaziosmanpaşa Stadyumu	4.000	1965
Tepecikspor	Tepecik Belediye Stadyumu	3.000	1988
Bayrampaşaspor	Çetin Emeç Stadyumu	2.500	1959
Eyüpspor	Eyüp Stadyumu	2.500	1919

Third League

Club	Stadium	Capacity	Year Of Establishment
Sancaktepe Belediyespor	Hakan Şükür Stadyumu	7.000	2008
Fatih Karagümrük	Vefa Stadyumu	6.500	1926
Beylerbeyi	Beylerbeyi 75. Yıl Stadyumu	5.500	1903
Anadolu Üsküdar 1908	Beylerbeyi 75. Yıl Stadyumu	5.500	1908
Maltepespor	Maltepe Hasan Polat Stadyumu	5.000	1923
İstanbulspor	Bahçelievler İl Özel İdare Stadyumu	4.350	1926
Silivrispor	Silivri Stadyumu	3.000	1957
Ümraniyespor	Ümraniye Belediye İlçe Stadyumu	655	1938

Basketbol

Beko Basketbol Ligi

Club	Stadium
Anadolu Efes	Ayhan Şahenk Spor Salonu
Beşiktaş	Abdi İpekçi Arena
Fenerbahçe Ülker	Ülker Sports Arena
Galatasaray Medical Park	Abdi İpekçi Arena

TKBL

Club	Stadium
Beşiktaş	BJK Akatlar Arena
Fenerbahçe	Ülker Sports Arena
Galatasaray	Abdi İpekçi Arena
İstanbul Üniversitesi B.G.D.	Prof. Dr. Turgay Atasü Spor Salonu

TTSB

Club	Stadium
Beşiktaş RMK Marine	Süleyman Seba Spor Salonu
Galatasaray	Ahmet Cömert Spor Salonu

Voleybol

Acıbadem Bayanlar Voleybol 1. Ligi

Club	Stadium
Bakırköy Belediyesi Yeşilyurt	Yeşilyurt Spor Salonu
Beşiktaş Bahçeşehir Üniversitesi	BJK Akatlar Arena
Eczacıbaşı Vitra	Eczacıbaşı Spor Salonu
Fenerbahçe	Burhan Felek Spor Salonu
Galatasaray Daikin	Burhan Felek Spor Salonu
Sarıyer Belediyesi Spor Kulübü	Sarıyer Spor Salonu
Vakıfbank Türk Telekom	Burhan Felek Spor Salonu

Acıbadem Erkekler Voleybol 1. Ligi

Club	Stadium
Fenerbahçe Grundig	Burhan Felek Spor Salonu
Galatasaray	Burhan Felek Spor Salonu
İstanbul BŞB	Haldun Alagaş Spor Salonu

Hentbol

Türkiye Erkekler Hentbol Süper Ligi

Club	Stadium
Beşiktaş	Süleyman Seba Spor Salonu
Yeditepe Spor	Hakkı Başar Spor Salonu

Türkiye Kadınlar Hentbol Süper Ligi

Club	Stadium
Maltepe Belediyesi Gençlik Spor	Yakacık İTO Spor Salonu
Üsküdar Belediyesi Spor	Haldun Alagaş Spor Salonu

• Türk Telekom Arena
  Türk Telekom Arena
• BJK İnönü Stadyumu
  BJK İnönü Stadyumu
• Şükrü Saracoğlu Stadyumu
  Şükrü Saracoğlu Stadyumu

|}

The name

"I stan Bul" means : stan - turkish word for city of Bul (Bulgarians) or "Many" (in turkish - Bol) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 13:55, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

NAME

Istanbul is actually a greek phrase " εις την πόλη" that Turks made a turkish word — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.71.196.183 (talk) 16:10, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 March 2013

Ahmet Gürsakal (talk) 00:47, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. You're apparently proposing (using hidden text) that the infobox's skyline image be changed to this one. If so, please explain why you think this would be an improvement. Rivertorch (talk) 16:29, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 March 2013

from top to bottom and from left to right: Bosphorus Bridge; Maiden Tower; Sultan Ahmed Mosque; Valens Aqueduct; Rumelihisarı; Levent;Maslak;Haydarpaşa Terminal ; Bosphorus ; Ortaköy Mosque ; Bosphorus Bridge ; Türk Telekom Arena

Ahmet Gürsakal (talk) 23:41, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

I assume this is a request to change the infobox image. If that is indeed the case then a discussion above indicates that modifying the infobox image might be controversial, so it should not be changed without first establishing consensus. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 17:49, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

This page is Istanbul shows the various parts. I want to have that picture collage.

| image = İstanbul city-5.jpg | image_size = 300px|

Oppose to the change. First, in this collage there too many pictures. in the previous RFC there was consensus that this collage should contain at most 5-6 pictures (here we have ten). moreover, I think that some of these pictures are insignificant, while important places in the city (like Beyoglu) are missing. Alex2006 (talk) 07:56, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Infobox map

The map in the infobox shows Istanbul near the Dardanelles, in the wrong place. Other maps agree Istanbul is on the Bosphorus. The coordinates look OK, so something more complicated is to blame. 67.160.69.105 (talk) 20:27, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

It looks perfectly fine to me. I suggest you take a screenshot and upload it to a photo-sharing site like Imgur (since you don't have the appropriate permissions to upload onto Wikipedia) to illustrate what you're seeing. -- tariqabjotu 20:43, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Here is my (first ever) screenshot. It isn't as clear as it is on my computer, but it's good enough to show Istanbul on the wrong side of the Sea of Marmara. Windows 8, Firefox 19.0.2 67.160.69.105 (talk) 21:22, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes... that's very odd. Let me see if I can perhaps find an answer to this conundrum. -- tariqabjotu 18:42, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

New Collage and Cityscape picture

For cityscape section

Newer collage

1) Cityscape section needs a wide picture 2) Newer collage is required. Showing a tram is a bad choice when there are so many other attractive pictures. Cavann (talk) 18:52, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

1) I like the cityscape picture that you inserted.

2) Some months ago we had a lengthy discussion about the collage, which I advise you to read. The existing collage is the one which got the consensus of most users. Alex2006 (talk) 05:57, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

By "some months ago", you mean almost a year ago. Is this consensus eternal? Cavann (talk) 07:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Almost seven months ago. Of course consensus is not eternal, but you should get a similar consensus if you want to change the collage. Alex2006 (talk) 07:05, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I will wait for the input. Cavann (talk) 07:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

There was a discussion about the collage in September 2012 and an RfC in November 2012. This is not a crucial part of the article, and you need to give it some time rather insisting we change the image on a whim.

The panoramic image is probably fine, although I should caution you that one concern about having a panorama (although this was primarily in reference to the infobox) is that it's hard to get an image that adequately captures the skyline given the city's vast area. We do not want to end up with the mess that's in the Houston article where multiple panoramas are used to capture the entire skyline. Your image, obviously, is just one panorama, but a question to consider is whether that adequately depicts Istanbul's skyline (whatever its "skyline" is perceived to be). No comment on that. -- tariqabjotu 20:48, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Multiple pictures are needed to capture the skyline in a meaningful manner, since there are multiple "downtowns." Cavann (talk) 20:51, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Okay, then if you admit that, why are you attempting to put a panorama in that won't capture the skyline in a meaningful manner? One is fine, but multiple is highly discouraged and unlikely to achieve consensus. -- tariqabjotu 20:56, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Observe articles like Paris, New York City, where they have several wide images. My point was that there is no continuous one skyline. Cavann (talk) 21:18, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I see that, and they look terrible. No way the article would pass FAC like that. Those panoramas amount to just decoration, which is not the purpose of images in articles. -- tariqabjotu 22:03, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I know see those articles are not FA. However, the panorama image I suggested shows the historic peninsula, Bosphorus, Dolmabahce, in addition to parts of modern skyline; it'd make a nice addition. Cavann (talk) 22:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

City's foundation in infobox and wording in history section are incorrect

City's history goes back to Neolitic

“ "It all shows there was a Neolithic settlement here in the historic peninsula of Istanbul where people lived, farmed and fished," he adds.[3] ”

There are also Semistra and Lygos [4]

Now, currently, the line in history section, "However, the history of Istanbul generally begins around 660 BC," and the "established" part in infobox use note a as a source. All the sources in note a are seriously dated. One is a translation of Herodotus which is thousands of years old. The others are the following: Isaac 1986, Roebuck 1959, Lister 1979, and Freely 1996. All these sources predate Neolithic discoveries and, hence, are no longer valid. Finally, most importantly, note a refers to foundation of Byzantium and completely ignores the issue of earlier settlements.

As such information in infobox, and the particular line in history section needs to be changed. Cavann (talk) 19:11, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

In the context of ancient Greek poleis, a city's foundation is when it is founded as a city, which implies a certain political organisation, legal constitution, name and so on. Earlier informal settlements on the same site just don't count. Whatever was there before Byzantium may have been some fishermen's villages, but it wasn't Byzantium. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:09, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

This article is about Istanbul, the current city. Hence its history encompasses all of its history, not just since Byzantium. That was my point. Cavann (talk) 20:17, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Fut.Perf. is right. This article is about the city, not the site where the city lies. I think that you do not understand (yet) the difference between these two concepts. If you know Italian, you can usefully read the first volume of the "Storia di Roma" edited by Einaudi, where this difference is fully explained in the context of the foundation of Rome. Palatine hill was inhabited at least 13,000 years before the establishment of the city, but none thinks to link directly these settlements to the future city. This of course does not mean that the info about Istanbul's site during Neolithic should be censored or removed, but it should be clear that we are talking about another thing. Alex2006 (talk) 05:40, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Alessandro57, learn to read. The first settlements in Istanbul was in 6400 BC. That's what the infobox states. Your subjective understanding of what a city is irrelevant. What matters are the sources. Byzantium would not be considered a city in today's standards as well, certainly not compared to 13 million Istanbul. Cavann (talk) 06:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Hallo Cavann, there is a discussion ongoing, and 2 people (me and Fut.Perf.) have another opinion. Please leave the original version until the discussion is over, thanks. Alex2006 (talk) 06:59, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Please do not delete referenced information and do not WP:OWN the article. You are acting in an irrational manner. Cavann (talk) 07:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Hallo, I don't know since when you are active in Wikipedia, but if you change something, and this info is contested, a thread will be opened on the talk page, and the original version is kept until consensus on the change has been reached: this procedure is called Edit-Revert-Discuss. I have been still reverted a lot of times, and this is for me only the sign that a discussion must take place. I am against Edit wars, but this means that next time that you revert the article without waiting for the end of discussion I will contact an administrator. Coming back to what you say, this is not "subjective understanding", but is a standard notion in historic research. Alex2006 (talk) 07:15, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Which you have not referenced with respect to Istanbul. Until then, you cannot revert reliably sourced material just because you feel like it. Please read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, which is a core policy in Wikipedia. Cavann (talk) 07:23, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Archaeology is not done by the BBC per WP:NOTNEWS. Wait for the archaeologist to publish his paper before you change longstanding information. Also at Talk:Turkey you said to Athenean:

Learn to read. Primary component =/= Only component. Saying X compromises the primary component does not necessarily exclude A, B, C backgrounds. The point that there are other ethnicities in Turkey is already made in the lead, with an entire paragraph. Cavann (talk) 21:07, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

As for the time periods, learn what Neolithic means. Cavann (talk) 23:24, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Now on this talkpage you said to Alessandro57:

Alessandro57, learn to read...

I think it is high time you learned WP:NPA. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:57, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Quote from the BBC:

It all shows there was a Neolithic settlement here in the historic peninsula of Istanbul where people lived, farmed and fished," he adds. Historians had believed modern-day Istanbul was first settled around 700 BC. The discovery of the skeletons has revealed far deeper roots.

Conclusion: Historians had believed modern-day Istanbul was first settled around 700 BC. So, in all of previous recorded history, Historians had believed modern-day Istanbul was first settled around 700 BC. But, wait, "Breaking News"!!! "Not True"! A BBC reporter has just now reported the earth-shaking news that what historians believed up to now is wrong. This, without waiting for the discovering archaeologist to publish his findings in a reputable journal and without waiting for them to be peer-reviewed and for historians to critique the paper, accept it or reject it. Archaeology is not done by BBC news or any other news, especially if it is an extraordinary claim such as this. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:22, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

There you go. Abstract:

“ An extensive rescue excavation has been conducted in the ancient harbor of İstanbul (Yenikapı) by the Sea of Marmara, revealing a depositional sequence displaying clear evidence of transgression and coastal progradation during the Holocene. The basal layer of this sequence lies at 6 m below the present sea level and contains remains of a Neolithic settlement known to have been present in the area, indicating that the sea level at ~ 8–9 cal ka BP was lower than 6 m below present. Sea level advanced to its maximum at ~ 6.8–7 cal ka BP, drowning Lykos Stream and forming an inlet at its mouth. After ~ 3 cal ka BP, coastal progradation became evident. Subsequent construction of the Byzantine Harbor (Theodosius; 4th century AD) created a restricted small basin and accumulation of fine-grained sediments. The sedimentation rate was increased due to coastal progradation and anthropogenic factors during the deposition of coarse-grained sediments at the upper parts of the sequence (7th–9th centuries AD). The harbor was probably abandoned after the 11th century AD by filling up with Lykos Stream detritus and continued seaward migration of the coastline ”

Quotes:

“ There are as yet no absolute dates available from the prehistoric layers; however, large amounts of diagnostic pottery sherds have been recovered which display the distinct features of various cultural assemblages previously recorded and dated from other excavations in northwestern Turkey.....On the other hand, the material found in this horizon was mostly of Archaic Fikirtepe, Classical Fikirtepe, Yarımburgaz 4 and 3/2 horizons, covering the time range between 6600 and 5530 BC. There were also a few, but rather dubious, sherds that might be of an earlier age....The location of the Neolithic settlement at Yenikapı is similar to other contemporary sites, being located within easy reach of the sea coast ”

Source: Oya Algan, M. Namık Yalçın, Mehmet Özdoğan, Yücel Yılmaz, Erol Sarı, Elmas Kırcı-Elmas, İsak Yılmaz, Özlem Bulkan, Demet Ongan, Cem Gazioğlu, Atike Nazik, Mehmet Ali Polat, Engin Meriç, Holocene coastal change in the ancient harbor of Yenikapı–İstanbul and its impact on cultural history, Quaternary Research, Volume 76, Issue 1, July 2011, Pages 30-45, ISSN 0033-5894, 10.1016/j.yqres.2011.04.002. (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0033589411000457) Cavann (talk) 01:58, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Google Scholar results for this paper: Cited by two. It is far from being accepted widely by historians and I don't see anyone rushing to update the prevailing 700 BC. estimate of the settlement of Istanbul based on that. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 02:11, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

What is "accepted widely by historians"? Source?

We already knew there were settlements prior to Byzantine, and that's already in the article (and sourced), but not reflected in the infobox. Did you read the history section of the article?

Also look at Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Your google scholar argument is a stupid one, especially considering it's a 2011 paper. In any case Wikipedia is neutral and it is not appropriate for you to try to push an agenda here, while ignoring reliable sources (i.e., journal articles). Cavann (talk) 02:43, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

But you admit yourself that the paper is new, so it is obviously not very well known, therefore not accepted by historians. If it were accepted by historians then the historians who accepted it they would have made their acceptance known. If it is not known and Google Scholar does not pick it up then it is not mature enough to be included in an encyclopaedia such as this one. As far as your aggressive statements, your links to WP:NOT, and your allegations about my agenda as well as your vulgar and meritless statements about my use of Google Scholar, I can only say that you look completely over the top and out of control. Seeing your condition, I don't need to defend anything. I just wish you a speedy recovery. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 02:56, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

This ridiculous answer made me laugh. First, you asked for the paper. Now you are saying we should wait till the historians make "their acceptance known." Do you expect a worldwide declaration? LOL. Meanwhile, as I said, your original implication about Byzantine being the first settlement is incorrect anyway. Cavann (talk) 03:14, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Ridiculous answer according to your own doubtful standards. Do you expect a worldwide declaration? No. But I expect citations in other scholarly works making mention of this paper and then revising the date of establishment of Istanbul. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 03:22, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

And what is "the date of establishment of Istanbul"? Cite the reference.

Meanwhile, history of Istanbul goes way back, according to Istanbul Metropolitan Municipality [5]. Cavann (talk) 03:34, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

How about:

8 new sources

<ref name="BloomBlair2009">{{cite book|author1=Jonathan M. Bloom|author2=Sheila Blair|title=The Grove Encyclopedia of Islamic Art and Architecture: Delhi to Mosque|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=un4WcfEASZwC&pg=RA1-PA315|accessdate=11 April 2013|year=2009|publisher=Oxford University Press|isbn=978-0-19-530991-1|page=1|quote=Whatever the prehistoric antecedents of Istanbul, the continuous historical development of the site began with the foundation of a Greek colony from Megara in the mid-7th century bce . Despite its strategic location, however, Byzantion was not ...}}</ref> <ref name="Wood">{{cite book|author=Rowena Loverance, Tim Wood|title=ancient greece|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=rIMOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA10|accessdate=11 April 2013|publisher=Taylor & Francis|pages=10|quote=These colonies became independent but they kept in touch with their mother-city. Miletus in Ionia sent out many of the Black Sea colonies. Byzantium, now Istanbul, was founded by Megara, a city near Athens. The most important of the ...|id=GGKEY:E9117JQUKXT}}</ref> <ref name="Denis1996">{{cite book|author=Higgins, Michael Denis|title=A Geological Companion to Greece and the Aegean|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=Q-0jraoNqvUC&pg=PA128|accessdate=11 April 2013|year=1996|publisher=Cornell University Press|isbn=978-0-8014-3337-5|page=128|quote=...was known successively as Byzantium, Constantinople and Istanbul [...] Istanbul and the Bosphorus The city strategically placed on the borders of Europe and Asia and at the junction of the Sea of ... Under the name of Byzantium, it was founded as a colony of the Greek city of Megara about 650 BC and grew rich ...}}</ref> <ref name="SacksMurray2009">{{cite book|author1=David Sacks|author2=Oswyn Murray|author3=Lisa R. Brody|title=Encyclopedia of the Ancient Greek World|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=yyrao0dadqAC&pg=PA71|accessdate=11 April 2013|date=1 January 2009|publisher=Infobase Publishing|isbn=978-1-4381-1020-2|page=71|quote=Byzantium A celebrated Greek city on the European side of the southern mouth of the BOSPORUS channel, Byzantium is now the Turkish metropolis of Istanbul. Founded in the mid-600s B.C.E . by Greeks from MEGARA (1), the city was called Buzantion in Greek. Supposedly it took its name from the colonists' leader, Buzas; more probably, it was the name of a preexisting settlement of native Thracians.}}</ref> <ref name="WaldmanMason2006">{{cite book|author1=Carl Waldman|author2=Catherine Mason|title=Encyclopedia of European Peoples|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=kfv6HKXErqAC&pg=PA350|accessdate=11 April 2013|year=2006|publisher=Infobase Publishing|isbn=978-1-4381-2918-1|page=350|quote=At about the same time colonists from Megara, a city on the Greek coast west of Athens, had ventured into the Dardanelles, the entrance to the ... This was to be the location of the Roman eastern capital, Constantinople (modern Istanbul).}}</ref> <ref name="Encomium to Istanbul">{{cite book|title=Encomium to Istanbul|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=C3NpAAAAMAAJ|accessdate=11 April 2013|year=1991|publisher=Yapı Kredi Yayınları|page=13|quote=The name of the city and legends concerning its founding The name of Istanbul occurs as Byzantion in the oldest written records. Although the "ion" ... According to another version of the story, Byzas is the chief of the colonists from Megara.}}</ref> <ref name="The Encyclopedia Americana">{{cite book|title=The Encyclopedia Americana|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=imIdAQAAMAAJ|accessdate=11 April 2013|date=1 January 1973|publisher=Americana Corp.|isbn=978-0-7172-0104-4|page=692|quote=Of its many colonies established in Sicily and along the Black Sea, Byzantium (later Constantinople, now Istanbul) was the most celebrated. Megara's geographical situation between Athens and Corinth made the city-state the occasional ...}}</ref> <ref name="Spivey2004">{{cite book|author=Nigel Spivey|title=Ancient Olympics Pb|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=cgkzWTugSj0C&pg=PA181|accessdate=11 April 2013|year=2004|publisher=Oxford University Press|isbn=978-0-19-280604-8|page=181|page=Byzantium a colony on the Bosphorus (later Constantinople, now Turkish Istanbul); Cyrene a colony in North Africa (now the east coast of Libya); the rest, settlements planted in South Italy ...}}</ref>

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 04:21, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

(unindent) I agree with FP, Alex, and Dr. K. What matters is when the first city was founded, not a collection of Neolithic fishing huts (which, by the way, is already included). The period before 660 BC is prehistory, so there is nothing wrong with the statement "The history of Istanbul generally begins...". As for the infobox, the key dates for this city are 660 BC, 330 AD, 1453, and perhaps 1930. Not some vague prehistoric date that is the product of speculation based on pot shards. Athenean (talk) 03:11, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Byzantium is not a city compared to today's Istanbul either, and is as insignificant as Neolithic settlements may be relative to itself, if not more. The space in infobox (now deleted) informed the reader about when Istanbul was "first settled." That info needs to be correct. "generally begins" is an unsourced weasel statement and against WP:NPOV. Cavann (talk) 03:26, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

You don't understand (or don't want to understand) the concept of "city", which has nothing to do with its dimensions: Read this statement:

Le vrai sens de ce mot [cité] s’est presque entièrement effacé chez les modernes ; la plupart prennent une ville pour une Cité et un bourgeois pour un citoyen. Ils ne savent pas que les maisons font la ville mais que les citoyens font la Cité. J.J. Rousseau (Contrat social)

and also:

Often the presence of any settlement, and sometimes also of a limited amount of ceramics, has been confused with the origin [of Rome] and the birth of the city, without understanding that the true problem consists in understanding the origin of Rome as ancient city, and this means as ensemble of city structures and institution. C. Ampolo, "La nascita della città", in "Storia di Roma", I, Einaudi, 1988, pg. 154

Of course this is a general concept that can be applied to any ancient city, not (as you wrote) just to Rome. As Athenean writes, a collections of huts (also of 1,000,000 huts) still does not make a city: the difference between a settlement and a city is qualitative, not quantitative, and - as Rousseau writes - lies at the end in his inhabitants. Alex2006 (talk) 06:07, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I think Bloom et al. are quite clear:

Whatever the prehistoric antecedents of Istanbul, the continuous historical development of the site began with the foundation of a Greek colony from Megara in the mid-7th century bce.

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 06:19, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree absolutely. What I wanted to remark is that the problem is general, and is a cultural one.
Instead, one could ask him/herself why this kind of discussions always keeps exploding here, and not at the Rome, Paris, London Talk pages, although each European city, (from Istanbul to Rome, from Paris to London) has been built over (more) ancient settlements. But this is another question :-) Alex2006 (talk) 06:33, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree completely. As to motives one can only hope. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 06:36, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for finally coming up with some sources. Note that all those sources predate newer research. Also note that some sources do not necessarily say Istanbul's establishment is Byzantine establishment. They just say things like "Byzantine, now Istanbul". The most clear source is an encyclopedia: "Whatever the prehistoric antecedents of Istanbul, the continuous historical development of the site began with the foundation of a Greek colony from Megara in the mid-7th century bce." But again, this source is not up to date and tertiary sources such as encyclopedias are not preferable. In any case, I created a RFC. Cavann (talk) 22:01, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Irrelevant. You said:

"Whatever the prehistoric antecedents of Istanbul, the continuous historical development of the site began with the foundation of a Greek colony from Megara in the mid-7th century bce." But again, this source is not up to date

Wrong. The source has a built-in clause which automatically nullifies any prehistoric connection to the establishment of the city as a historical entity, so it automatically excludes any papers relating to times prior to the establishment of Byzantium. Here it is again:

Whatever the prehistoric antecedents of Istanbul, the continuous historical development of the site began with the foundation of a Greek colony from Megara in the mid-7th century bce

Your paper deals with prehistoric settlements. This is exactly the type of paper this reference explicitly nullifies.

Even a book published by a Turkish publisher mentions:

<ref name="Encomium to Istanbul">{{cite book|title=Encomium to Istanbul|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=C3NpAAAAMAAJ|accessdate=11 April 2013|year=1991|publisher=Yapı Kredi Yayınları|page=13|quote=The name of the city and legends concerning its founding The name of Istanbul occurs as Byzantion in the oldest written records. }}</ref>

The name of Istanbul occurs as Byzantion in the oldest written records.

This is beating a dead carcass way past its decomposition state well into WP:IDHT territory. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:52, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

To me, beating a dead carcass seems like ignoring WP:NPOV. There can be no "built-in clause" from an out-of-date source , if the prehistoric settelement is discovered in the very heart of old Istanbul in 2010.

WP:IDHT is also refusal/inability to get the point that we are talking about "first settlement" in the infobox, not "establishment of the city." Establishment of city could also be establishment of metropolitan municipality. Cavann (talk) 23:01, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Infobox

Should Istanbul's pre-Byzantine history be mentioned in the city's infobox? Newer research shows that Istanbul's historic peninsula had been inhabited longer than previously thought (newspaper article: [6]; abstract of the journal article [7]). Government of Istanbul also says the city is older than what the current infobox states [8]. Basically, should this change be made in the article [9]? Some editors are opposing this change, based on tertiary sources such as encyclopedias, [10] which predate newer research. Note that no one is suggesting removing anything from the current infobox, just adding more information for a more complete portrayal of city's history. Cavann (talk) 21:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what makes you think that whatever recent archaeological findings you read about somehow invalidate the common historiographical definition that a city's "history" begins when continuous, well-documented, organised city-like settlement begins. It has always been known that there were other settlements there on that site before Byzantium proper. That's old news. Whether we are just talking about an Illyrian "Lygos" of a couple centuries older, or about something neolithic of several millenia older, really makes no difference in principle. Because either way, these settlements were just that: other settlements, not the same city. No continuity between them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:19, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

"No continuity between them"? An up to date source? The new discovery at Yenikapi is in Istanbul's historic peninsula. The current infoxbox is against WP:NPOV as it ignores other sources including Government of Istanbul website. Cavann (talk) 22:23, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

To clarify, your "new" discovery is actually four years old and has been in the article for the past three years. -- tariqabjotu 22:29, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I know. My issue is that it is not represented in the infobox. This is my proposed change [11]. I said new because it is newer than the tertiary sources presented above. Cavann (talk) 22:32, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) No This RfC is completely unnecessary, a reactionary response to an issue with which Cavaan is clearly in the wrong. Cavaan's "new" information is not actually "new" to this article; as shown in Cavaan's own diff, there is already a paragraph at the start of the History section that mentions how long human beings have resided within the present-day city limits of Istanbul. But their residence is not a city. Choosing to take up residence on a deserted island does not constitute the establishment of a city, and so, as far as an article on a modern-day city is concerned, what pre-historic peoples of the region did are of little consequence. In concert with every other city article on Wikipedia, the infobox ought to display the establishment of the city apparatus, which historians still, now, even today, believe occurred in the 7th century BCE with the foundation of Byzantium. -- tariqabjotu 22:25, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Istanbul Metropolitan Municipality:

On the other hand, the foundation of Istanbul is dated to 7.000 BC...There have been settlements in what is now Istanbul since prehistory, but the foundation of today's Istanbul were lain in the 7 th century BC. The Megarians came into Istanbul from Greece through the Sea of Marmara in 680 BC.

So, the infobox needs to represent a comprehensive picture. Cavann (talk) 22:34, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

So, which is it, 7.000 BC or 7th century BC? That source (not a reliable one anyway) is evidently confused. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:38, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

The journal article is reliable. And the answer is there is no one correct answer. Hence, the infobox needs to be comprehensive and cover all viewpoints (ie: WP:NPOV). I am not sure why adding "first settled" into the infobox, without deleting anything, is so controversial. Cavann (talk) 22:42, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

And from what I can see, the journal article says nothing about those neolithic settlements being part of the history of Istanbul as a city. It simply says that some neolithic settlement existed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:44, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

It does:

The city of İstanbul occupies a unique location in the world with respect to its geographical and historical settings. It is located at the narrow and shallow Bosporus (İstanbul Strait), which constitutes the end point of the Black Sea–Mediterranean corridor, and has coasts on both the Marmara and Black seas. Not only does its historical setting cover the time of Byzantine and Ottoman Empires, but also this location has always been of prime importance in the earlier history of civilization...The Yenikapı excavation site is located at the southern coast of the historic center of İstanbul within the so-called “old town of İstanbul”, which actually is a peninsula (Sarayburnu) bounded to the north by the Golden Horn and to the south by the SOM...

Cavann (talk) 22:51, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

As FPaS said, the source just says that some neolithic settlements existed. -- tariqabjotu 23:08, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Hence, the addition of "first settled" into the infobox. Duh! Cavann (talk) 23:17, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

...under a field entitled "Established". Believe it or not, that field is meant to be used to denote when a city was established, not when the area encompassing the city was "first settled". -- tariqabjotu 23:26, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

NOT under a field entitled "Established". Jeez! As I said several times before, it would look like this: User:Cavann/sandbox.Cavann (talk) 23:30, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes. And that would be accomplished, according to your own proposed diff, by putting that information under fields entitled established_title and established_date. -- tariqabjotu 23:50, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

That's a template and that field can read "First settled". Jeez. Template:Infobox_settlement#Location.2C_established.2C_seat.2C_subdivisions.2C_government.2C_leaders Cavann (talk) 23:56, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

That's "First settled" as an "Established city" not as a neolithic settlement. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:03, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and Dr. K's point is demonstrated by the examples in New York City and Chicago. Those articles note that they were "settled" in 1624 and the 1770s, respectively. However, there is ample evidence that there were people in both locations well before Europeans arrived on the American continent, before the 15th century. However, those pre-European settlements were merely geographic coincidences and have nothing to do with the creation and development of the modern cities. We have the same here; the beginning of Byzantium marked the settlement of what would ultimately become the city of Istanbul. The neolithic settlements were just groups of people that happened to be located on the same site.

That being said, why I'm arguing with someone who has an answer and an attitude for everything is beyond me. -- tariqabjotu 00:23, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I quite agree. This article is about the historic origins of the historical city. It is not about its prehistoric antecendents, or any prehistoric hunter-gatherer settlers of the area of the historic city. We even have a reference which states exactly that and we have many more which imply that. Hunter gatherers don't "establish" cities. Case closed. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:44, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Concept of city goes back to Neolithic [12]. And neolithic is not "hunter gatherers." Cavann (talk) 01:53, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Yesterday it was "Byzantium is not a city" [13], today it's "concept of city goes back to Neolithic". You're clutching at straws here, and have begun contradicting yourself. Athenean (talk) 02:45, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

"Byzantium is not a city compared to today's Istanbul either" does not mean Byzantium wasn't a city at the time Cavann (talk) 05:39, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Byzantium is not a city compared to today's Istanbul either Citation needed. Now you are clutching at straws. You conveniently ignore the totality of reliable sources all of which recognise Byzantium as a historically significant city. So your original research-based comparisons and conclusions are useless. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 11:45, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Frivolous RFC. Obvious case of WP:IDHT. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:56, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

WP:IDHT is also refusal/inability to get the point that we are talking about "first settlement" in the infobox, not "establishment of the city." Establishment of city could also be establishment of metropolitan municipality. Cavann (talk) 23:01, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

You are the only one arguing about these points over and over again. The only one. And none is agreeing with you. This should tell you something but it doesn't. This is the very definition of WP:IDHT. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:08, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a simple majority democracy. Yet again, you are ignoring WP:NPOV. But you are right, this discussion is going nowhere. Cavann (talk) 23:13, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia is not a democracy, but there is something called consensus. And when we have five experienced editors, some of whom are experts in this area, agreeing with each other and vehemently disagreeing with a lone, not-so-experienced editor, that's consensus. There is a reason no one has come to your aid, and no one will. This is the same exact situation as the recent ruckus over at Turkey with your attempts to insert off-topic info about the genetic continuity of the Turkish people in the lede of that article [14]. As you misunderstood the purpose of an article's lede there, you are now misunderstanding the purpose of infoboxes. Infoboxes are for showing important, well-established facts at a glance, not for including the latest cutting edge research in a field or pet theories. Your inexperience coupled with your incredible tenacity is rapidly becoming disruptive, and yes, you are deep into WP:IDHT territory by now, not to mention WP:NPA. Athenean (talk) 02:52, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Consider this also:

<ref name="Bainbridge2011">{{cite book|author=James Bainbridge|title=Turchia|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=9pS6mGiPC8QC&pg=PA29|accessdate=11 April 2013|year=2011|publisher=EDT srl|isbn=978-88-6040-763-4|page=29|quote=Storia BISANZIO Il primo insediamento di una certa rilevanza storica sorto nell'area occupata dall'odierna İstanbul venne fondato da un colono di Megara di nome Byzas, il quale, prima di lasciare la Grecia, aveva domandato all'oracolo di ... Story BISANZIO The first settlement of a certain historical significance built in the area occupied by today's İstanbul was founded by a settler named Byzas Megara, who, before leaving Greece, had asked the oracle of ...}}</ref>

Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 02:58, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

They provided important evidences about the cultural, artistic and geological changes underwent by our city in a period of 8500 years, ship technology, city archaeology, geoarchaeology, osteoarchaeology, archaeobotanics, art history, maritime trade, philology and about dendrochronology.[15]

Cavann (talk) 05:39, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

They provided important evidences about the cultural, artistic and geological changes underwent by our city in a period of 8500 years,... Emphasis on "changes". Translation: "Look how far we have come having started from a bunch of fishermen's huts back in the neolithic...". Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 11:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. See Thread above. Alex2006 (talk) 05:24, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Good grief, give it a rest. Maybe we're all wrong and you're right, but you haven't persuaded anyone and I don't think you're about to. Rivertorch (talk) 08:03, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
• Weak oppose I would not mind an addition to the infobox re "Early settlement," -- "first" is rather poor because I am sure no-one doubts that as soon as homo sapiens (or even other hominini) arrived in the area some settled there for a time or intermittently. But it is hardly a necessity and it is very different information from the founding of an urban center. However, the current infobox also appears, NPOV and verified so the claims made above by the OP seem like a clear case of overreaching to get the edit that User desires, and there is merit in the argument that the current way of treating the information in the text (not the infobox) is appropriate. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:35, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Most of the lead is currently devoted to history, but it completely ignores pre-Byzantine history despite the notability. That is against WP:NPOV. Cavann (talk) 20:38, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

This proposal is about the infobox, not the lead. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Words. There are none. -- tariqabjotu 22:03, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, but the issue is related. Violation of NPOV (ignoring sources that are more inclusive about the history). Should I start another RFC for the lead? As for the infobox, "Early settlement" sounds good. The overall point is that early settlements are notable and should not be ignored in the infobox or the lead.

Archaeological evidence indicating the settlement of the Neolithic culture is particularly important in considering the contact zone between the Near Eastern Anatolia and southeast Europe. [16]

The Yenikapı Neolithic settlement carried the history of settlements in the Historic Peninsula back to about 8500 years ago. The Neolithic remains unearthed at this site have been observed to be in close similarity to the "Fikirtepe Culture" and "Yarımburgaz 4" phase, which are called the Neolithic communities in the İstanbul region....They provided important evidences about the cultural, artistic and geological changes underwent by our city in a period of 8500 years, ship technology, city archaeology, geoarchaeology, osteoarchaeology, archaeobotanics, art history, maritime trade, philology and about dendrochronology.[17]

Cavann (talk) 23:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

No. As I wrote before, a settlement is not a city. Moreover, as Fut.Perf. wrote above, there is no continuity between the settlement of Yenikapi and the future city. This settlement now lies 6.5 m to 9.5 m under the sea level, because it was flooded by the rising level of the lake of Marmara. The transformation of the lake into a sea, the formation of Bosporus and other catastrophic events provoked the destruction of all the settlements in today's urban area, and this is the reason why there are almost no trace of settlements during Chalcolithic Age in Istanbul. In that period I don't think that was a very smart idea to live near Istanbul peninsula. :-) Also, bronze age findings inside the peninsula are missing, while at the time there were flourishing towns like Selimpasa in the Marmara region. So, time continuity is totally missing here. A last observation: Yarimburgaz is also inside today's city limits (Kücüc Cekmece), so maybe one should write in the inbox that the first settlement in Istanbul dates from 800,000 ago (Yarimburgaz 1). :-) About presence of this info in the lead: almost each large European city has been preceded by prehistoric settlements (Istanbul is no special case), but I don't see trace of them in any article lead, in wikipedia or other encyclopedias, and I don't see why we should make an exception here. Alex2006 (talk) 08:15, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Article says settlement was moved after rising sea. Cavann (talk) 19:29, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Excessive images

I don't know why this is a recurring on this article, but I request that those interested in adding more images to the article please read Wikipedia:Picture tutorial. In particular, consider Wikipedia:Picture tutorial#Avoiding stack-ups. There are already many images of Istanbul in this article, and while there are no doubt many more beautiful images available on the Internet, they cannot all fit in this article (to avoid stack-ups and sandwiching text). The currently is near or at capacity in this regard. If you believe you have found an image better than one of the current images (in terms of aesthetics or in terms of informativeness), then by all means, replace the former image with a new one. But the article does not have room for more.

Also, there was an RfC on the infobox collage in November, so please don't change it without talk page consensus. -- tariqabjotu 19:55, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

The cityscape section needs a wide panorama image. Please see other articles. I am not sure if your objections are well-intentioned, or if it is a simple case of WP:OWN, since you seem to be reverting everything. Cavann (talk) 20:13, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

You are one to speak. And I need not dignify your baseless insinuation with any meaningful response. -- tariqabjotu 20:25, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

First, Tariq, do try to keep comments on the topic of the article. But I do agree with your effort to limit the image stackups, and to address the issue of the panorama, I have to disagree that cityscape "needs" a panorama. The cityscape section is about the various different districts in the city, only or or two of which are visible in that panorama. Much better to have an example of an interesting area, like the yalı, than a generic skyline.-- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 21:33, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

One important point is that a lot of the current images are poor choices. This is in contrast to other major cities' articles, where good and quality images have been selected.

Also, the panorama image was not a generic skyline image, as it included Hagia Sophia and Dolmabahce Palace. Cavann (talk) 21:45, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

First, Tariq, do try to keep comments on the topic of the article.

Excuse me? Did you read the comment I was responding to? It was the farthest thing from a comment on the topic on the article. It was pretty much just an attack, and I am well within my bounds, as any normal person would do, to point out that it was baseless. And considering the complaint's reaction to being told ten ways until Sunday that he was wrong about an issue (see the preceding two sections), yes, he is one to speak.

Oh, but I'm the one who needs to be reminded to comment on content. Ridiculous, and you'll be certain I ignore any further advice you dole out in my direction. -- tariqabjotu 21:51, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Istanbul Infobox Image

Station before fire with roof intact

Current image, showing the damaged building

Should the current infobox image [18] be changed with [19]? There are several issues with the current infobox image: (1) It shows non-notable pictures such as a picture of a tram and a picture of a few regular buildings in Maslak, whereas there are many better alternatives; (2) Infobox pictures showing larger areas and cityscapes seem better compared to pictures showing a limited area or a single building (unless iconic) (eg: New York City infobox collage, which includes several pictures that show the cityscape). Suggested newer collage [20] adds another cityscape picture, and also adds Maiden's tower, which is one of the symbols of the city. Cavann (talk) 20:31, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm removing the RfC tag. There was an RfC on this matter just five months ago, and now you're just abusing the RfC process. RfC is not meant to be used to push through agendas that have already been shot down or have barely seen any discussion. Sorry, no. -- tariqabjotu 20:41, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

The previous RFC about infobox image was in September 2012. Cavann (talk) 20:44, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Reverting the RfC template again. No, it was launched on November 11 and closed on December 20. -- tariqabjotu 20:50, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I did not participate in it, so it is not an abuse of RFC process. 5 month RFC cannot shut all the current and future discussion. Anyway, this issue is now in dispute resolution. Cavann (talk) 21:13, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

The current image had broad consensus just a few months back, and shows a variety of locations in the city. The infobox shouldn't just show the downtown or tourist areas, and even New York City features the Unisphere in Flushing Meddows. What I would suggest, if folks do wish to include File:Istanbul panorama and skyline.jpg, is that it could replace the panorama currently in the top spot in the collage, since the both feature Sultanahmet.-- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 21:22, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I actually built upon the previous infobox. 2 images from the previous collage are maintained. 2 panaromas are somewhat different though. One shows the Golden Horn, the other is entrance to Bosphorus, so I think both should be there. Cavann (talk) 21:31, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Tariq. The RFC process cannot be misused. Moreover, this article reached with the removed collage FA status. I think that before starting a new discussion, the article should be displayed on the main page. Alex2006 (talk) 07:12, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi there, uninvolved editor here. I think removing the RfC was inapropriate regardless of the feelings of those involved. The rules for ending an RfC are listed as: the question may be withdrawn by the poster, the RfC participants can agree to end it, it can be formally closed by any uninvolved editor, or it may be moved to another dispute resolution forum - If you disagree with the RfC you should oppose it or ask an uninvolved admin to close it but you should not simply remove it yourself. I would support the original proposer adding it back in but I have no opinion on the content of the RfC itself. Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 13:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

This discussion seems dead. Note that I intend to restart the RFC if we cannot reach a consensus. The current infobox image is unacceptable, because it does not include one of city's symbols [21] (Maiden's Tower), and it includes a picture of a partially burned down building. If Haydarpaşa Terminal is gonna be included, this should be done after that building is fully restored (see older version of the building before fire with the roof fully intact). I cannot understand how a burnt down bulding was included in the collage. Cavann (talk) 04:44, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

My suggestion are below:

• 

Cavann (talk) 23:46, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

No idea what happened to the comment I wrote yesterday, but apparently it didn't get saved.

Anyway, the gist of it is that there was a lot of gusto toward including the Haydarapasha Terminal because it's on the Asian side of the city. In the months since the August/September 2012 discussion, that enthusiasm has waned as a few editors (two of whom are blocked, I might add) have remembered that the terminal is damaged. But we have yet to find a suitable replacement. Without the image, we have no representation of the Asian side of the city. Maiden's Tower was considered during the aforementioned discussion, but it was ultimately excluded because the tower serves no functional purpose in the city. As for the panoramas... we already have one, and it's useful at the size it needs to be in the infobox. There's no need for a second one. And the second panorama does not work will at the 300-pixel width it'll need to be in the infobox. If you want to include it, it should be down in the Cityscape section (where it currently is now). -- tariqabjotu 03:48, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Kuleli Military High School is also on Asian side

What do you think of the 2nd collage? Some points:

1) Instead of unremarkable office towers, a bridge should show the modern side (and it includes Rumelihisari and Bosphorus and Asian side)

2) For the Asian side, instead of Haydarpasa, we can use Kuleli Military High School.

3) We can either use Maiden's Tower or Dolmabahce Palace. Maiden's Tower is one of the symbols of the city, [22] so I still think it should be included. Cavann (talk) 18:09, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

(1) Unremarkable office towers? Um, ok. But I would think the city's financial district is somewhat important. I'd hardly call the inclusion of the bridge (hardly visible I might add) a testament to modern Istanbul. (2) Is that high school really that significant? Serious question. (3) Er, ok. I also want to point out your proposal has a lot of water. Even the Venice collage has more pictures without water visible. -- tariqabjotu 02:27, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

1) Maslak is not even the main financial district. That would be Levent. There is another one under construction in Atasehir. Until there is a quality picture, a bridge is better. Plus it shows Bosphorus and Rumelihisari, as I said.

2) Yes (eg: [23]_

3) We can crop some of the water when we agree to the images.Cavann (talk) 04:03, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Tariq. Anyway, if in order to take a new shot we wait for the restoration of Haydarapasha, we can wait a long time (and actually, knowing how things are proceeding here, one can rather bet on a second, more definitive "accidental" fire :-)), so why don`t we use the first picture? Anyway, personally I am not disturbed about the burnt roof, since burned buildings (as many writers like de Amicis and Pamuk remember) definitively belong to the real image of this city as much as gecekondu and skyscrapers. :-) Alex2006 (talk) 06:05, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Italian cities have plenty of run down neighborhoods too, I don't see them in any infobox's. I also note that de Amicis is so very old. Please update yourself, this is 2013. Cavann (talk) 18:12, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Economic predictions

Last time I checked, we don't include predictions about economic performance in articles, particularly in the lead. I checked the other FA city articles, I don't see preditictions of the type "By year X, city X will have the Z economy in the world". And for good, reason, a lot can happen between now and, say, 2025. Same goes for country articles by the way. Athenean (talk) 16:38, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

It seems acceptable for the Economy section, but, yes, for the lead it's out of place. -- tariqabjotu 17:14, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

This is covered under WP:CRYSTAL. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:56, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

It is notable that it is one of the fastest growing. I changed the source which reflects past performance rather than future projections, tho. Cavann (talk) 03:50, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

That's fine. Athenean (talk) 06:30, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Hallo Cavann, this is exactly the meaning of these "projections". The information that they give is about past, not future. There are so many things that can happen in the next 15 years in Istanbul (just to mention one, the large quake which should hit the city in the next future according to many scientists) that writing something like that is meaningless. On the other side, giving info about the past economics performance of the city is absolutely OK. Alex2006 (talk) 07:20, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Pre-Byzantine history in the lead

There are currently 482 words in the lead. More than half (245 words), 2 entire paragraphs, deal with history. Yet, despite this extensive focus, pre-Byzantine history is completely ignored despite the notability.

Archaeological evidence indicating the settlement of the Neolithic culture is particularly important in considering the contact zone between the Near Eastern Anatolia and southeast Europe. [24]

The Yenikapı Neolithic settlement carried the history of settlements in the Historic Peninsula back to about 8500 years ago. The Neolithic remains unearthed at this site have been observed to be in close similarity to the "Fikirtepe Culture" and "Yarımburgaz 4" phase, which are called the Neolithic communities in the İstanbul region....They provided important evidences about the cultural, artistic and geological changes underwent by our city in a period of 8500 years, ship technology, city archaeology, geoarchaeology, osteoarchaeology, archaeobotanics, art history, maritime trade, philology and about dendrochronology.[25]

The city of İstanbul occupies a unique location in the world with respect to its geographical and historical settings. It is located at the narrow and shallow Bosporus (İstanbul Strait), which constitutes the end point of the Black Sea–Mediterranean corridor, and has coasts on both the Marmara and Black seas. Not only does its historical setting cover the time of Byzantine and Ottoman Empires, but also this location has always been of prime importance in the earlier history of civilization...

Problems related to cultural history further complicate a conclusive picture on the final establishment of the connection between the SOM and the Black Sea. Although the Neolithic Period, as a threshold in the history of civilization, was shown to be initiated at ~ 10,500–11,000 BC in certain areas of the Near East and in Central Anatolia, its dispersal to southeastern Europe took place only by 6600–6500 BC (Lichter, 2004 and Pinhasi, 2003). Due to its strategic location between Anatolia–Near East and southeastern Europe, the Marmara basin in general and more specifically İstanbul has a critical importance in our understanding the mode of this early endemic movement (Özdoğan 2008)....

The Yenikapı excavation site is located at the southern coast of the historic center of İstanbul within the so-called “old town of İstanbul”, which actually is a peninsula (Sarayburnu) bounded to the north by the Golden Horn and to the south by the SOM...[26]

A sentence, emphasizing Istanbul location and previous settlements, would improve the lead.Cavann (talk) 21:05, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't think the prehistoric information is sufficiently notable to be included in the lead. Same arguments as to why this information is not sufficiently notable to be included in the infobox (explained to you in the two sections above [27] [28]) apply here. Re-cycling the same technical publication over and over until you get the result you want isn't going to work. Athenean (talk) 21:37, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

You understand the difference between infobox and the lead, right? Cavann (talk) 21:41, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Is this line of questioning a recycled form of the "Learn to read"^TM campaign? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 02:26, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

@Cavann: Insults and mockery will get you absolutely nowhere. Athenean (talk) 07:41, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Through edit-warring, and in an underhanded reversal of the stable lead, the phrase: Founded on the Sarayburnu promontory around 660 BC as Byzantium, the city... has been changed to Byzantium was founded on the Sarayburnu promontory around 660 BC... thereby imposing the POV that Byzantium is not the founding city of Istanbul as established by reliable sources and by consensus. This is unacceptable. There is also no consensus for the neolithic information to be at the lead. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:21, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

The changes I made sidesteps the entire issue of "establishment of city." It just provides a better overview of the article. Pre-Byzantine history is already in the article, but was ignored in the lead. Cavann (talk) 00:45, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Your rewrite, irrespectively of the inclusion of the neolithic information against consensus, has removed the phrase Founded on the Sarayburnu promontory around 660 BC as Byzantium, the city... which explicitly connects the founding of the city to Byzantium. This is not what the reliable sources say and you cannot gloss over this important point of the historical founding of the city. Your changes are unacceptable, against consensus and imposed by edit-warring. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:53, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

We can say: "The first city, Byzantium, was founded..." How does that sound? Cavann (talk) 01:18, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

No, definitely we cannot. The reliable sources are clear that Byzantium was the founding city of Istanbul. I don't know why I have to remind you because you full well know where they are, but for a sample see the collapsed section above. This has been the stable and consensus version for a long time. Once more, here is a sample from the reliable sources: Under the name of Byzantium, it was founded as a colony of the Greek city of Megara about 650 BC and grew rich ... You cannot suppress this simple fact by edit-warring and by the false pretense of misleading edit summaries: added a sentence to the lead, re-worded a bit [29]. Please revert yourself. Your edit is disruptive and unsustainable. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:45, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I really don't see why a Neolithic fishing village that just happens to be located within city limits is sufficiently notable to be mentioned in the lead. Athenean (talk) 02:12, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

It isn't only that. It is also the suppression of Byzantium as the founding city of Istanbul despite consensus, all the reliable sources and discussions. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 02:21, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I have on my desk the (beautiful) catalog of the exhibition held 3 years ago in Sabanci Museum "From Byzantion to Istanbul: 8000 years of a capital". Given the title (a little contradictory :-)), I thought that this could give good arguments for the insertion on the lead of something about "prehistoric Istanbul". Unfortunately it is not so:
• in the (lengthy) introduction of Dogan Kuban there is not a single word about prehistoric settlements, but he begins with the foundation of Byzantion;
• in the catalog itself, the first part is called "Prehistory (devoted to the settlements) and the birth of a city". The first part is divided into two phases: "Early Traces" and "City in the classical period" which are clearly divided;
• to all the prehistoric settlements (not just Yenikapi) are devoted 18 pages, out of 512.

I think that these considerations, together with what I wrote 10 days ago (the singularity in space and time of this settlement, washed out by the rising of the lake after some years) closes in a negative sense the debate about its notability for the lead: the info about the settlements is important enough to be cited in the article (as it was) but not in the lead.

And now, a service consideration :-) : why this debate is still going on? I think that it was closed 10 days ago, after my last considerations. I don`t think that is a good strategy to reopen a debate hoping that the contributor to whom one was not able to reply, is now taking a leave from Wikipedia... :-) Alex2006 (talk) 06:30, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• This is the 64,000 Dollar Question. :) It has happened also for the collage at the infobox and in the same manner. Can anyone discern a pattern emerging? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 12:32, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

RFC

There are currently 482 words in the lead. More than half (245 words), 2 entire paragraphs, deal with history. Yet, despite this extensive historical focus, pre-Byzantine history is completely ignored in the lead even though it is notable enough. Should a sentence mentioning this time period be added into the lead? This would provide a better overview of the article, given that pre-Byzantine history is already in the article. Cavann (talk) 04:17, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

This is the sentence I suggested:

Early settlements in the area date back to Neolithic, including ancient Thracian settlements.

And here are some sources why it is notable enough:

Digging through thick mud and an ancient swamp of black clay, archaeologists in Istanbul have discovered a grave that proves the city is 6,000 years older than they previously thought.[30]

The Yenikapı Neolithic settlement carried the history of settlements in the Historic Peninsula back to about 8500 years ago. The Neolithic remains unearthed at this site have been observed to be in close similarity to the "Fikirtepe Culture" and "Yarımburgaz 4" phase, which are called the Neolithic communities in the İstanbul region....They provided important evidences about the cultural, artistic and geological changes underwent by our city in a period of 8500 years, ship technology, city archaeology, geoarchaeology, osteoarchaeology, archaeobotanics, art history, maritime trade, philology and about dendrochronology.[31]

The city of İstanbul occupies a unique location in the world with respect to its geographical and historical settings. It is located at the narrow and shallow Bosporus (İstanbul Strait), which constitutes the end point of the Black Sea–Mediterranean corridor, and has coasts on both the Marmara and Black seas. Not only does its historical setting cover the time of Byzantine and Ottoman Empires, but also this location has always been of prime importance in the earlier history of civilization...

Problems related to cultural history further complicate a conclusive picture on the final establishment of the connection between the SOM and the Black Sea. Although the Neolithic Period, as a threshold in the history of civilization, was shown to be initiated at ~ 10,500–11,000 BC in certain areas of the Near East and in Central Anatolia, its dispersal to southeastern Europe took place only by 6600–6500 BC (Lichter, 2004 and Pinhasi, 2003). Due to its strategic location between Anatolia–Near East and southeastern Europe, the Marmara basin in general and more specifically İstanbul has a critical importance in our understanding the mode of this early endemic movement (Özdoğan 2008)....

The Yenikapı excavation site is located at the southern coast of the historic center of İstanbul within the so-called “old town of İstanbul”, which actually is a peninsula (Sarayburnu) bounded to the north by the Golden Horn and to the south by the SOM...[32]

Cavann (talk) 04:20, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I was wondering how long it would be before this user filed an RfC. What's this one, number 7 is less than two weeks? In the section above and two other talkpage sections [33] [34] there is a clear consensus that a neolithic fishing village that has no continuity with the historic city is not worthy of mention in neither the infobox nor the lead. However, Cavann simply refuses to listen and keeps filing RfC after RfC until he gets the result he wants. Athenean (talk) 04:24, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

He cites the same paper in the section above [35]. Just one paper, over and over and over, in an increasingly desperate attempt to have his way. Athenean (talk) 04:26, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

See here [36] and here [37] for counterarguments as to why this neolithic fishing village is NOT notable, and how this user simply refuses to listen. Athenean (talk) 04:27, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

This is about the lead, not the infobox. This is the first RFC about the lead. Cavann (talk) 04:34, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

It's the 7th one you've filed in what, 10 days? It's not any more lead worthy than it is infobox worthy. The reasons were explained to you above, but apparently it didn't register. Athenean (talk) 05:48, 26 April 2013 (UTC)