Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism: Difference between revisions
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Obi-wan, I would agree with you if Jewish descent were not explicitly Middle Eastern. My impression is that editors are constructing a system of categorization meets a need for simplicity. If that system were or could be made compatible with norms of categorization and the ways groups self-identify then we would not be crossing swords. [[User:Garrettrutledge55|Garrettrutledge55]] ([[User talk:Garrettrutledge55|talk]]) 07:02, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 |
Obi-wan, I would agree with you if Jewish descent were not explicitly Middle Eastern. My impression is that editors are constructing a system of categorization meets a need for simplicity. If that system were or could be made compatible with norms of categorization and the ways groups self-identify then we would not be crossing swords. [[User:Garrettrutledge55|Garrettrutledge55]] ([[User talk:Garrettrutledge55|talk]]) 07:02, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 |
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:According to Israeli government statistics reported [http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/156942#.UprhdFWzKpg here], there were 4239 conversions to Judaism in that country in 2011. I have seen estimates of 10,000 per year in the United States. There are roughly 20 converts who are members of my synagogue, who immerse themselves in Jewish ethnic practices. I don't think that "rarity" is accurate. And if you don't think that there has been widespread discussion of this phenomenon, then I suspect that you haven't been paying attention. [[User:Cullen328|'''<font color="green">Cullen</font>'''<sup><font color="purple">328</font></sup>]] [[User talk:Cullen328|<font color="blue">''Let's discuss it''</font>]] 07:23, 1 December 2013 (UTC) |
:According to Israeli government statistics reported [http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/156942#.UprhdFWzKpg here], there were 4239 conversions to Judaism in that country in 2011. I have seen estimates of 10,000 per year in the United States. There are roughly 20 converts who are members of my synagogue, who immerse themselves in Jewish ethnic practices. I don't think that "rarity" is accurate. And if you don't think that there has been widespread discussion of this phenomenon, then I suspect that you haven't been paying attention. [[User:Cullen328|'''<font color="green">Cullen</font>'''<sup><font color="purple">328</font></sup>]] [[User talk:Cullen328|<font color="blue">''Let's discuss it''</font>]] 07:23, 1 December 2013 (UTC) |
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Cullen, By your own admission, the number of converts to Judaism is statistically small. It might interest you to know that ethnic Jews make up the bulk of persons converting to Judaism. When the State of Israel brings ethnic Jews to Israel, those Jews tend to convert as part of the Aliyah (coming to Israel) process if they were not observant already. These are the converts of which the State of Israel speaks. Allow me clarify my earlier statement. The conversion of non-Jews to Judaism is a rarity. Because these conversions are rare, the way in which an ethnic Jew should regard a non-Jew who has converted to Judaism has not been widely discussed among Jews. I qualify this statement by comparing the discussion of conversion among Jews to the discussion of inter-ethnic marriage among Jews. The latter occurs frequently due to a rise in secular attitudes among Jews and has been widely discussed. This is not to say that ethnic Jews do not welcome or recognize conversion to the faith. It is a fact that most US Jewish congregants do. This is to say the conversion of non-Jews to Judaism is not a fixture of Jewish life. If you're synagogue has 20 persons who've undergone a formal conversion, then His hand must be upon you all. Well done. [[Special:Contributions/67.182.154.25|67.182.154.25]] ([[User talk:67.182.154.25|talk]]) 21:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 |
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== Help with Hebrew needed in an unlikely location....an Australian cicada... == |
== Help with Hebrew needed in an unlikely location....an Australian cicada... == |
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Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/WikiProject used Jewish Encyclopedia available on Wikimedia commonsI have uploaded pdf files of the twelve volumes of the old public domain Jewish Encyclopedia, which can all be found here. The text is in public domain, so can be freely used with appropriate attribution, and might well be very useful in developing a lot of content here. And, FWIW, the broader category of Religious encyclopedias there contains a number of other older reference sources in the public domain, which between them might also be useful. John Carter (talk) 20:19, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Hello Judaism experts! I have no idea what to make of the above article, which appears in various places around the web, marked as freely licensed, and has now been submitted at Articles for creation. Maybe someone here can help out? —Anne Delong (talk) 05:23, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
Request for consensusThere is a request for consensus underway at Talk:Ohel (Chabad-Lubavitch), to move the page back to Ohel (Chabad). Thanks for weighing in. Yoninah (talk) 22:24, 23 October 2013 (UTC) AfC submissionAnother submission relevant to your Project. Regards, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 00:21, 25 October 2013 (UTC) Is this topic notable? If so, is there any cleanup that needs to be done before the article is accepted? davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 01:31, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Shemini Atzeret/GA2Please see Talk:Shemini Atzeret/GA2 and add your expertise. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 10:33, 30 October 2013 (UTC) Sefeika D’YomaSefeika D’Yoma is a new article, please help by improving with sources and more information. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 10:11, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
RfC: Peter Sellers article regarding the use of word "Jewish" of a character (1)There's a Request for Comment occurring that seems relevant to this project. It's regarding the Peter Sellers article and the word "Jewish" to describe a conman character in several 1980 Barclay's Bank commercials. There is a heated discussion regarding the sources to support the content. Input can be very helpful to everyone involved, including me. Discussion at Talk:Peter Sellers#Request for Comment: Use of term "Jewish" to describe conman character. --Oakshade (talk) 22:41, 1 November 2013 (UTC) At the Peter Sellers article there is discussion of how to refer to a fictional character played by Peter Sellers in three advertisements that he made for Barclay's Bank. The 3 advertisements are available for viewing on YouTube. Rather than provide a direct link to the video containing those 3 advertisements, I will instead suggest that you use the search terms "Peter Sellers Barclays Commercials" at YouTube. The Peter Sellers article presently contains the following sentence: "Filmed in April 1980 in Ireland, he played a Jewish conman, Monty Casino." Extensive discussion can be found on the Talk page of the article. Please feel free to weigh in. Bus stop (talk) 05:47, 7 November 2013 (UTC) A request for comment on whether to describe a character as a Jewish con man (2)You may wish to comment at Talk:Peter_Sellers#Request_for_Comment:_Use_of_term_.22Jewish.22_to_describe_conman_character. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:27, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Naming convention for Hasidic RebbesAn editor has moved Yissachar Dov Rokeach (I) to Yissachar Dov Rokeach I, and Yissachar Dov Rokeach (II) to Yissachar Dov Rokeach II. He is of the opinion that all such pages should be renamed this way. I pointed out that Judaism has no such concept as "the first," the "second," or even "senior" and "junior". Other editors are invited to comment at Talk:Yissachar Dov Rokeach I#Page rename. Thank you, Yoninah (talk) 18:44, 4 November 2013 (UTC) I would wonder if it would not be more accurate to include the patrynimic (father's name). Jewish tradition, in the Western communities, is against naming someone after a living person. There would not be a Yissachar Dov Jr., as the father could not name his son the same name as his own. Even grandchildren might not get the name if the original YD was alive at the times of their births. YDR(I) might have been more accurately differentiated from YDR(II) by their having different father's names. In the Talmud, there are even those who are identified solely by the father's name, e.g Ben Nanas or Son of Nanas. Artstop (talk) 19:44, 25 November 2013 (UTC) Women by Ethnicity nominated for deletion.Category:Women by ethnicity is being considered for deletion. Anybody interested in commenting, can do so at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_November_4#Category:Women_by_ethnicity. __ E L A Q U E A T E 08:30, 7 November 2013 (UTC) Naming conventions on WP for the MaccabeesPlease see Talk:Eleazar Avaran#Naming conventions on WP for the Maccabees. Discussion: How should the original Maccabees, the father Mattathias and his five sons, John (Johanan), Simon, Judah (Judas), Eleazar (Elazar), Jonathan be known on Wikipedia? Thank you, IZAK (talk) 10:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Jewish English Bible translations and mechon-mamre.orgJust trying to get my head around this. We have Jewish English Bible translations which looks ok to me, but a large number of translations are sourced to mechon-mamre.org. Their translation doesn't seem to be one of the ones listed, so it's hard for me to understand why it's used so broadly, especially since it uses archaic English. Dougweller (talk) 17:07, 9 November 2013 (UTC) Torah and PentateuchPlease see Talk:Torah#Pentateuch. It's about a possible split. -- Ypnypn (talk) 01:09, 11 November 2013 (UTC) Is Judaism a race/ethnicity or a religion? IP editor edits instances, making them say it is a religionJust as a heads up an IP editor is editing instances of Judaism insisting that it is a religion and not a race or an ethnicity: Special:Contributions/98.100.17.34 If the edits are justified, then so be it. But it's good to know about these edits. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:01, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
This has been forked off the main Yahweh article for some time now, with the lead:
As those who are familiar with the subject will know the main piece of modern evidence for the Yahweh pre-Israel deity theory is
There's slow ongoing discussion on whether to de-Fork and merge back to Yahweh, whether to leave separate, or what to do about improving provision of modern WP:RS and WP:NPOV sources. If there are any knowledgeable editors available... In ictu oculi (talk) 07:41, 14 November 2013 (UTC) Article on sexual abuse in Hasidic community in NYCHere is:
Not sure where it should go and be used as a source WhisperToMe (talk) 08:41, 14 November 2013 (UTC) Adult Bar and Bat MitzvahCopied here from my talkpage Why do you keep removing the article Adult bar and bat mitzvah from the Template:Jewish life? Xyz7890 (talk) 00:35, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Just a note - this page is getting overspill from a WP:FRINGE theory that the Christian book of Matthew is based on a lost Hebrew original (scholars considered it a product of Hellenistic Judaism, written in Greek), primarily because a recurring cycle of edits over the past x years has been repeatedly rejected by editors on pages relevant to the subject. I realise the actual details of such a theory are not of interest to editors on Antisemitism, but it seems a WP:WEIGHT issue to have a fringe Christian/Messianic theory even be mentioned. This probably does not constitute a neutral notification, sorry, but the comment "recurring cycle of edits over the past x years has been repeatedly rejected by editors on pages relevant to the subject" is demonstrable from edit histories. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:47, 18 November 2013 (UTC) I'm posting this to gauge consensus for some categorization that's been/being done.
I'd also argue that individuals of Jewish descent in Australia, South and North America also would not have thought of themselves as Asian but right now this question is limited to Europeans of Jewish descent. As an aside, most of the individuals assigned to these categories are from 17th-21st centuries. I think both Solar-Wind and I will abide whatever the iconsensus is here. Your opinions are welcomed! Liz Read! Talk! 18:47, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
First, Evildoer187 is referring to genetic studies contributed to equally by dozens of researchers based in institutions like Johns Hopkins and Stanford. These studies found that Ashkenazim share more genes (mitochondrial DNA) with other Jewish groups than than they do with non-Jewish groups. These studies put to rest the hypothesis that Ashkenazim are not genetically linked to other groups of Middle Eastern descent.<http://www.ashg.org/2013meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f130123130.htm> Secondly, the paternal ancestors of the Ashkenazim left the Middle East as early as 70 AD and as late as the early Middle Ages. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_history> So, an arguments against defining Ashkenazim as being of Asian descent that is based on an assertion that many of our pre-historic ancestors lived in Asia doesn't make much sense. The emigration from Asia that created the Ashkenazim is far from pre-historic. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 06:21, 23 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55 Thanks for the comments, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Cullen328. I should also say that:
Liz Read! Talk! 19:41, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
As a Jew, I am compelled to point out that persons who would deny that all Jews are of Asian descent are engaging in imperialistic thinking. Many Jews self-identify as being of Middle Eastern (Asian) descent. If certain Ashkenazi Jews appear more European than Asian, that is because they are multi-ethnic; having paternal ancestors who emigrated from the Middle East to the European continent where they married European women who themselves converted to their husbands' religion. Genetic studies of contemporary Ashkenazim prove that this was the case. Using the argument that "we all descend from Africa" to deny any ethnicity their right to identify their place of origin is ethically and anthropologically incorrect. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 17:12, 22 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55
Thanks for all of the participation in this question, I'm satisfied with the response and don't think this needs to move to an RFC. I did leave "of Asian descent" categories in geographically close cases such as Category:Egyptian people of Jewish descent and Category:Turkish people of Jewish descent that are close to the Middle East. Interestingly, Jewish people are not included in Category:Russian people of Asian descent where, since Russia is located in Asia, a legitimate case could be made that they are, technically, of Asian descent even if they are primarily European in heritage, culture and influence. Liz Read! Talk! 20:09, 18 November 2013 (UTC) I can see why you decided to remove "Americans of Asian descent" from the "American Ashkenazi Jews" cat, but removing "Middle Eastern people" and whatnot from the main "Ashkenazi Jews" category is just....well, wrong. Ashkenazi Jews did arrive to Europe from Asia/the Middle East. It's equally absurd when Sephardi Jews and Roma have not been removed.Evildoer187 (talk) 23:44, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
I wish to reiterate my opposition to the blanket categorization of all Jews as bring of Asian descent. There have been established Jewish comunities in Europe and North Africa for well over 2,000 years. Intermarriage and conversion have affected such communities. Given what we now know of human origins, all humans have African origins and all human communities other than sub-Saharan African communities have Asian origins. Possibly speaking Hebrew as evidence of Asian origin is absurd. Both of my sons speak some Hebrew but this is the result of American teaching not ancestors from 1500 years ago. If we have geneological information indicating specific ancestry of a specific person in a specific Asian community, then fine. But European Jews in general are no more "Asian" in origin than are Hungarians or Romanians or Maltese. Many Jews today are the product of conversion and I have non-Jewish Irish, English, Norwegian and Swedish ancestry. Back when the Ashkenazi ancestors left "Asia" for "Europe", the modern concept of the continents with the Ural Mountains neatly separating Europe from Asia wasn't universally accepted. And today, a notion of an "Asian" person that combines Turks with Japanese, while excluding Greeks and Egyptians on the basis of continental boundaries is simply absurd. This is tendentious editing if it continues. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:50, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
This is incorrect. There is no statute of limitations on descent. At no time has an academic categorization of descent been based on recent history only. Descent is based on a group's place of origin as evidenced by origin of culture, genetics and known paths of emigration. This discussion has become non-academic. Until 50 years ago, Ashkenazim were regarded as emigrants to Europe and were never confused with groups of entirely European descent. The recent drive to categorize Ashkenazim as being of European descent began with the creation of the State of Israel in 1948. Many of the new state's founders were Ashkenazi Jews who based their claim to self-determination in Israel on being aboriginal to the Land of Israel formerly known as the British Mandate of Palestine. Since then, opponents of Jewish nationalism have been working hard to counter the argument for the Asian origin of Jews whose ancestors emigrated to all parts of the European continent from nations in the Middle East. When we counter this counter-argument and return Ashkenazim to the category of Persons of Asian Descent, we are, in fact, simplifying the method of categorization and eliminating the contradictions that arise from allowing politics to determine scientific methodology. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 22:44, 24 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Debresser, As an Ashkenazi Jew, I am stating that Ashkenazim do, in fact, self-identify as being of Middle Eastern descent. We are multi-ethnic and, in some parts of Europe and North America, are more socially mainstreamed than any other Jewish group in the diaspora (all Jews living outside the Land of Israel). If asked to tick a box on an EOE form, we would almost certainly not mark 'Asian/Pacific Islander' due to the fact that the purpose of the form is to divide people according to their racial phenotype, not identify their continent of origin. I've known Latinos to tick the 'Caucasian' box because they are mestizo or bi-racial so appear as Caucasian as Ted Cruz. Does this mean they would not identify as Latino in some other milieu? Certainly not. If you were to ask ten Ashkenazi Jews where our paternal Jewish ancestors came from, nine would say, the Land of Israel. Those Jews would say, the Land of Israel because the thread connecting the past, which is our place of origin, to the present, which is wherever we find ourselves, is the basis of our culture. In that milieu, we always self-identify as being of Middle Eastern origin. I hope my explanation improves your cultural sensitivity to this issue. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 19:08, 25 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55 67.182.154.25 (talk) 07:55, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, The Land of Israel is found in the Middle East. In genealogical terms, descent refers to parentage or a single generation of a family. In ethnographical terms, descent refers to the absolute origin of an ethnic group or people. I did not use myself as a proof. Rather, I pointed out that all Jews point to the Land of Israel as their place of origin. If you are a Jew and you do not identify the Land of Israel as the absolute place of origin of the Jewish people, then your view is a deviation from the norm. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 19:08, 25 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garrettrutledge55 (talk • contribs) 16:59, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I am somewhat concerned by the automatic assumption that the presence of lighter skin or different eye color automatically brands one as being more European or not. If one reads Thor Heyerdal's account of Easter Island, Aku Aku, he notes that early discoverers of this clearly remote and genetically isolated island were surprised to find a population that seemed to have both the expected darker colored Pacific Island native as well as lighter skinned, European looking, natives from within the same peoples. It is clearly not accurate to look at a population of people and therefore exclaim that the color of their skin is automatically proof of a high percentage of intermarriage. It is also reasonable to consider that of a population who moved from the Middle East to Europe that the lighter skinned people were seen as more attractive, which is shown to bring greater acceptance and even success (more attractive people are more successful or so studies suggest). While those forces may not have been as active 1,000 years ago, there may still have been a social pressure which brought marital success to those of the group who had more Europoid features, which would then slowly shift the coloring of the group as a whole. Jews trace their heritage to the Middle East, culturally and genetically. An interesting study of the "priest" gene among Jewish communities found similarities among those who have that heritage, both among Sepharadi and Ashkenazi communities <http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/07/980714071409.htm>. Since the priest heritage is passed paternally, the presence of this gene even among Europoid looking Ashkenazi Jews gives us good reason to wonder about the amount of intermarriage which is required to create a certain appearance.Artstop (talk) 18:28, 25 November 2013 (UTC) I would like to reiterate one of the points made in here earlier, that we need to be mindful of the possibility of inadvertently reinforcing or encouraging antisemitism or antisemitic politics. More specifically, the idea that modern Jews are really just ethnic Germans or Poles or whatever who converted to Judaism, and who don't have any real ties, roots, or connection to the Middle East, and thus do not "belong" there. Neglecting to mention or acknowledge the Middle Eastern origins and identity of Jews could prove to be dangerous, and might just end up complicating things further.Evildoer187 (talk) 19:11, 25 November 2013 (UTC) Jewish people may self identify as Ashkenazi or Sepharadi, but that is far more to do with identifying the form of prayers which they are using, and less (if anything) about their long-term ethnic heritage. For example, while Sepharadi initially refers to those Jews who went to Spain (Sepharad in Hebrew), it has come to refer to all the Jewish communities which remained in the East,in Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Lebanon, and even within the boundaries of what is now Israel. Both groups identify as "Jewish", which is tied to the common heritage that both share of coming from the Middle East. That some people may not identify themselves as such is more about their ignorance of their heritage than not. The proper classification for the descent of the Jews should be Middle Eastern. Artstop (talk) 19:27, 25 November 2013 (UTC) I agree that we are Middle Eastern regardless of whether or not were Sephardi, Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Beta Israel, Karaites etc. The only differences are the cultures our ancestors were raised around and how it influenced their Judaism. Hence why Jews can look different, act different and think differently from one another. I as an Ashkenazi don't have the same cultural similarities than that of a Jew from Ethiopia, Tunisia, India or Iran. But Ashkenazi Jews are also different from one another depending on the country they lived in at the time. French Jews are different than Russian Jews who are different than German Jews who are different than Danish Jews and so on. Although French Jewry is more Sephardi now, it was once mostly Ashkenazi which is the French Jewry I was raised in on my mothers side. But with all that said, we are still from the Middle East originally. It doesn't how far back our ancestry goes, we are still a Semitic people who originated from that area. Plus, you create a slippery slope when you start to begin questioning how far it should go before someone can be considered authentically middle eastern 2605:E000:5FC0:21:954:941D:1CC4:B51F (talk) 19:53, 25 November 2013 (UTC)JVBcynical85 (talk) 19:55, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
The explanation for the presence of European Y-chromosomes in Ashkenazi DNA is simple and supported by the sampling of a wide swath of Ashkenazi DNA that has been compared to samples taken from other Jewish groups. The explanation: Jewish men emigrated in substantial numbers to Europe from the Middle East. After reaching Europe, these men married and had children with European women. Those women became members of the communities they married into. Over time, those communities grew and evolved and now constitute a unique group known as Ashkenazi Jews. <http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131008112539.htm> The findings of this and other studies put to rest the hypothesis that Ashkenazim descend from the Caucuses and were once citizens of some Eastern European kingdom now lost to antiquity. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 04:32, 26 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55 I tend to agree that Jews should be classified under Middle Eastern/Asian descent. Jewish identity certainly originates there, and while certain people will have more Middle Eastern/Asian descent than others, it's virtually impossible to know beyond a shadow of a doubt to what extent the ancestry of either individual Jews or entire Jewish groups (Ashkenazi, for example) originate in Asia, Europe or elsewhere. While of course there's many theories (based largely on circumstantial evidence), and DNA studies that support either the European or the Asian hypotheses, I think that since we'll never know the answers with complete confidence, it's fair to recognize what most Jewish people believe about their identities, since there's really not much in the way of compelling evidence to the contrary. Kitty (talk) 05:28, 26 November 2013 (UTC) Kitty1983, the evidence tells us that Ashkenazim are multi-ethnic, yet have more in common genetically with other Jewish groups than they do with non-Jewish groups. Roughly 40% of Ashkenazi DNA is of European origin while the remaining 60% is of Middle Eastern origin. Not acknowledging the Asian descent of Ashkenazi Jews makes zero sense. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 06:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
This comment belong to a sub-thread above, but because it contains new arguments, I choose to put it at the current bottom of this discussion. @Garrettrutledge55. Yes, the Land of Israel is in the Middle East. So? Category:People of German descent is in Category:People of European descent. That doesn't mean that all "German" categories and articles also receive a "European" one. Just the main German category. And there is one great difference: "Jewish" is not originated in geography like "German" e.g.! "Jewish" is an ethno-religious group, with proselytes from some 40 centuries of religious Jewish history! Those proselytes are not all from Israel, or even the Middle East. By the way, if anything, the Jewish people is originated in Egypt (The Exodus is cited in the Bible as the cradle of the Jewish people). And the first Jew was from Iraq. Still, which Jew calls himself Egyptian or Iraqi?! It just doesn't work that way. Debresser (talk) 08:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, Did you just cite the bible as evidence? Did you just assert that a blood quantum nullifies the indigeny of ethnic Jews to the Land of Israel? First, there is evidence which suggests that the Hebrew and Canaanite nations merged and that elements of Canaanite culture and religion mingled with Hebrew monotheism. It is believed that the Hebrew name for G-d, Yahweh or YHVH is of Canaanite origin. Secondly, racial purity has no place in a discussion about ethnicity or indigeny. Multi-ethnic or mestizo South American Natives are no less indigenous to the American continent than Natives living in closed communities who have no European ancestry. The same is true of multi-ethnic Jews. Please limit your arguments to what can be deemed scientific and/or rational. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 17:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Can we stop talking about genetics please? Especially these discussions of racial purity as a determining factor for ethnicity and descent. That isn't what we're discussing at all. In any case, Jews belong in the Middle East/Asian because Jews are BY DEFINITION an ethnic/national group of Middle Eastern descent. This isn't rocket science.Evildoer187 (talk) 18:30, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, The bible is admissible as evidence in a discussion of theology or faith. We are discussing the descent of Ashkenazi Jewry. You argued that Jews, in general, originated in Egypt then cited the bible as evidence. Also, descent in ethnographical terms is not defined by "proximate descent", or where a group resided recently. Descent is defined by the place or places in which a group originated. If this were not true, then Latinos residing in the Americas could not claim European descent. I agree that we should set aside genetics for the time being. Let's get back to basics. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 20:22, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 [If someone identifies as a Romani-American from Hungary, for example, they are not only acknowledging that they are Hungarian, but that they are Romani. Romanis are an ethnic group/nationality of Indian descent, therefore including them under Asian descent alongside European descent would be reasonable. American people of Jewish descent would function in the same way, for the most part.] Here, Evildoer187 makes an ethnographically correct argument. If descent was determined in proximate terms only then the Romani would be barred from the category of Ethnic Groups of Asian Descent. Romani identity and culture originated in South Asia and has been maintained by the Romani in their diaspora. This makes the Romani an ethnicity that can claim a single place of origin regardless of where they emigrate to. This would cease to be true if emigration was followed by assimilation and a loss of Romani cultural identity. The same is true of Jews. Our identity and culture originated in the Middle East and has been maintained in our diaspora. Continuity of cultural identity is the primary determinant of ethnic origin, not proximate descent or racial purity. Jews define the Land of Israel as the birthplace of Jewish identity and culture. Therefore, Jews are ethnically Middle Eastern. All I am asking is that you apply the same standards of ethnic origin to Jews that you would apply to the Romani or any other ethnic group. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 00:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Jewish descent?An anonymous IP editor at Talk:John_Schlossberg#Jewish Category (relative of John F. Kennedy) is arguing that Schlossberg, whose father is a Ukrainian Jew, should not be included in the Category:American people of Ukrainian-Jewish descent because Schlossberg's father is not from the Middle East, and therefore is not of Jewish descent. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 19:17, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I would like to reiterate the point that a majority of Jews self-identify as being of Middle Eastern (Asian) descent. Identifying Ashkenazim as 'European Jews' does not nullify their Asian origins. Rather, this identifier merely places them within a sub-category of Asian Jewry. Despite their European appearance, Ashkenazi Jews share more genes with other Jewish groups than they do with non-Jewish groups. If I'm not mistaken, there are participants in this discussion who suggest that Ashkenazim be removed from the Asian category simply because they have longstanding residence in Europe. According to this logic, I can claim to be a Native American simply because my family has a longstanding residence in North America and be removed from any category other than 'Indigenous American'. Worse, there are some in this discussion who are arguing for a dissolution of separate racial categories due to the African origin of our common human ancestors. This logic is ethnographically incorrect. Please, come to your senses. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 08:25, 24 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Cullen, Take it from a Jewish Studies major, Judaism is a religion. Jews are an ethnicity. When a Jew falls away from the faith, he or she remains a Jew. A person can convert to Judaism, but does not become ethnically Jewish in the process. Every ethnic Jew can, in fact, trace their roots to the Middle East. In the case of Ashkenazim, we can trace our roots to both Europe and the Middle East; though the bulk of our genome is of Middle Eastern origin. My advice to everyone: keep it simple. Good taxonomy (the science of classifying things and concepts) begins with simple questions. We can fuss over dubious histories and theories or we can examine facts. It is a fact that Ashkenazi Jews share more mitochondrial DNA with other Jewish groups than they do with non-Jewish groups. It is a fact that Ashkenazi Jews possess an oral history that traces their roots to the Land of Israel; which is to say, the Middle East. Good taxonomy demands that Ashkenazim be given the dual classification of being a people of both Asian and European descent. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 16:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
@174.226.1.204, you are comparing a national/ethnic group to an openly proselytizing religion. So yes, apples to oranges.Evildoer187 (talk) 18:24, 26 November 2013 (UTC) Obi-Wan, Allow me to clarify. Judaism is a religion. Jews are an ethnic group. Mere conversion to Judaism does not make one ethnically Jewish. If one converted to Judaism and married into the tribe, then a family tie would exist. One would then be ethnically Jewish if one was not so before marriage. Non-Jews often make assumptions about Jews and Judaism based on comparisons made between Christianity and Judaism. Non-Jews reason that If one becomes a Christian when one converts to Christianity then the same must be true of persons who convert to Judaism. When one converts to Judaism one joins a community of faith, but does not necessarily join the ethnic Jewish community. For Jews, ethnic bonds are determined by family , not religious affiliation. This is true of ethnicity in general. An ethnic group may even embrace more than one religion. I hope my explanation was helpful. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 20:51, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Obi-Wan, This is a matter of Jewish culture and tradition, not personal judgement. Again, you're confusing rituals and beliefs with blood and family ties. We did not consider ourselves into being. We are either born or marry into the tribe. Because we are an ethnicity, a Jew can leave the faith or marry a non-Jew and remain as Jewish as the day he or she was mitzvahed. If you won't take my word for it, then ask a Rabbi or read this book: <http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Literacy-Important-Religion-History/dp/0688085067> Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 01:07, 27 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
I think it is time to close both these two discussions: two editors disagree with the rest of the world. They should stop editing Wikipedia with edits that go against consensus. Debresser (talk) 01:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
[Will never convince educated people and most here that Jews as a people and converts to Judaism should be classified as Middle Eastern. There was a time that people though that Japanese-Jewish where part of the ten lost tribes of Israel...but we have learned alot since then and have come to discover that not all Jews trace there heritage directly to the middle east. Need people to stop trying to put a genetic spin on all Jews and see that there is only a common religion not a common ancestor to all Jews.] Moxy, First, It is against Wikipedia policy to assert that an opposing opinion is uneducated. Secondly, the majority view (not in this discussion, but in the real world, obviously) is that Jews originated in the Land of Israel. Yes, people have converted to the faith in the diaspora, yet these persons make up only a part, not the whole of Jewish ancestry in the diaspora. Your assertion that Jews share a common religion, but no common Middle Eastern ancestors is not only factually incorrect, it is anti-Semitic. Allow me to explain why. Jewish identity is based, in part, on lineage. Some of us may self-identify as American or European Jews, but we trace our roots back to the Land of Israel. This was especially true of Russian Jews at the turn of the last century. Those Jews built shtetls (self-contained Jewish communities) and maintained traditions that can be traced to medieval Palestine. When you argue that Jews are not an ethnicity, you are attacking the belief that we are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and the original tribes of Israel. Even if the story of Abraham and his offspring is not objectively true, it is objectively true that Jews began to appear in Europe during periods of Jewish mass exodus from the Land of Israel. Moreover, the argument that Jews are an invented people is only given by anti-Semites in an effort to accomplish through psychological warfare what they could not accomplish through murder and genocide. I am not calling you an anti-Semite, but am encouraging you to consider the source of the argument you've chosen. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 20:29, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55\
Moxy, A geneticist would not discount the ethnicity of a group or nullify ethnic origin based on occurrences of intermarriage or multi-ethnicity. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 21:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
A taxonomist would simply classify a multi-ethnic group as having more than one point of geographic origin. I'm having a heckuvah time sussing out why this concept is so difficult for some to grasp. Taxonomy does not demand that every thing or concept be placed in a single category. This is the stuff of basic science. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 21:31, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
From Wikipedia: Paternal lineage, Y chromosome[edit] In 1992 G. Lucotte and F. David were the first genetic researchers to have documented a common paternal genetic heritage between Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews.[21][22] In 1993, A. S. Santachiara Benerecetti, et al. have suggested the Middle Eastern origin of Jewish paternal lineages.[23] In 2000, M. Hammer, et al. conducted a study on 1371 men and definitively established that part of the paternal gene pool of Jewish communities in Europe, North Africa and Middle East came from a common Middle East ancestral population. They suggested that most Jewish communities in the Diaspora remained relatively isolated and endogamous compared to non-Jewish neighbor populations.[2][12][24] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews> Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 21:36, 28 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55
There's more where that came from. It's time to show. Telling won't work on you lot, obviously. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 21:45, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 European female ancestry is not being ignored. That ancestry does not nullify the Jewish male ancestry of Ashkenazim. Ashkenazi Jews are multi-ethnic. We are of both Middle Eastern and European descent. We belong under both categories of descent. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 21:49, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
The argument for Ashkenazi Middle Eastern ancestry does not rely upon "some genetic link". Multiple studies suggest that Ashkenazim share more genes (or specific genetic mutations) with other Jewish groups than they do with non-Jewish groups. This has become a matter of scientific consensus. From Wikipedia: [Two studies by Nebel et al. in 2001 and 2005, based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe (defined in the using Eastern European, German, and French Rhine Valley populations)]. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews> Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 18:44, 29 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 Add to that the fact that Ashkenazi Jewish culture and the dominant religion among Ashkenazi Jews originated in the Middle East, not Europe or the Americas. Also, the mutations I mentioned earlier are passed from parent to child or from generation to generation within groups that share parentage. Hence their use to confirm ethnicity and lineage. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 18:59, 29 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 [...we should not be implying that Category:Middle Eastern people is relevant to all Jewish article without taking into account other relevant cats. As has been implied above - most people do understand that European Jews are a multi-ethnic group with a long and dynamic background. Yes there is a common link for many - but there are many other links as well within the communities.] Moxy, It is not necessary to fit Ashkenazi to one category of descent or the other. Moreover, most ethnic groups contain persons who deviate from racial homogeny. Mestizos (persons of South American Native and Spanish descent) are categorized as Latino, a term nominally used to identify persons of Spanish descent living in Latin America. Latino is an explicitly ethnic category that includes persons of African, Native, Portuguese and Spanish descent. The inclusiveness of this category demonstrates that ethnicity and race are mutually exclusive (they are separate concepts). From Wikipedia: [Hispanic/Latino Americans are very racially diverse, and as a result form an ethnic category, rather than a race.[13][16][17][18]] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans> Jews are ethnically Middle Eastern due to the fact that we have more in common with one another than we do with non-Jews regardless of where we live or to which Jewish sub-group we belong. More to the point, the genetics, culture, linguistics and religion Jews share originated in the Middle East. Again, Ashkenazim are ethnically Middle Eastern, but are categorizable as being of both Asian and European descent. It is ethnographically incorrect to remove Ashkenazim, or any Jewish sub-group, from the category of persons of Asian descent. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 21:00, 29 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Moxy, I'm unsure which of my points you're using to support your assertion that Jews are not of Middle Eastern descent or an ethnicity, period. If you were a geneticist, then you would be aware of the genetic mutations diaspora Jewish populations share with populations residing continuously in the Middle East. Diaspora Jews share more of these mutations with one another than they do with non-Jews. This confirms that A) Jews are an ethnicity that share common, distant ancestors and B) that those common ancestors are of Middle Eastern descent. Genetics affirms that for Ashkenazim these ancestors were primarily, but not exclusively males of Middle Eastern origin. Please word your comments clearly if you'd like to be understood. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 06:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 Debresser, The term, 'Native American' denotes pre-Colombian ancestry. That ancestry need not be singular and widely shared among a single group of Natives for the term to apply. Ethnic Jews are indigenous to a much smaller piece of real estate than Native Americans. So, it stands to reason that the genetic diversity of Native peoples would be much greater than that of the smaller Jewish nation. Comparing one to the other serves no purpose in this discussion. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 06:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Arbitrary BreakI came back a week later to see if there was any consensus so I could return to editing categories of descent and I see a majority of people (meaning over 50%) arguing that editors should not automatically classify any person "of Jewish descent" who lives in any country of the world as being "Asian". I should just remind people that, on Wikipedia, "of Jewish descent" is a separate category than "Jewish". This is not about the Bible or religious identity or genes or where ones ancestors came from 2000 years ago. If this was true, Europe was sparsely populated and most modern Europeans came from intermixing with Asian groups who migrated West. Everyone should be defined as being Eurasian or African. We can't base these categorical decisions on one (or two) person's perception of how "most people who are Jewish think of themselves". This is not about denying anyone their heritage or international politics. It's about organizing articles and where readers might look for articles on a particular subject. Try to not personalize this discussion. Here's a case: Suppose, there is an article on a 21st century Argentine person of Jewish-German descent. As it is now, that individual would be classified (in addition to occupational categories) to be of Argentine descent, Jewish descent and German descent. I argue that they shouldn't also be categorized as of Asian descent. Or a Canadian of Polish-Jewish descent but whose family has lived in Canada for four generations. These are the kind of real-life examples I was working with. And while I see appeals to religious identity, genetics, solidarity with Israel, etc. I don't see much mention of Wikipedia Categorization guidelines which should be guiding force here, not personal opinion. I refer you to WP:OVERCAT and WP:EGRS for some insight into why 1) ethnic descent categories are contentious and also 2) why an individual should not be over-categorized into 5 or 6 different ethnic categories (especially considering the dozen or so other categories that might apply to them). Liz Read! Talk! 21:23, 29 November 2013 (UTC) Liz, Outside of this discussion, there is nothing contentious about the standing categorization of Jews as being an ethnic group of Middle Easter descent. Wikipedia guidelines, as you cite them, do not determine reality. Wikipedia is an encyclopedic source of information. Like any encyclopedia, Wikipedia should and must not deviate from conceptual norms. Categorization or taxonomy should be guided by scientific principle and logic, not a need to trim the fat or create a purely Wikipedian system of categorization. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 23:28, 29 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 [Here's a case: Suppose, there is an article on a 21st century Argentine person of Jewish-German descent. As it is now, that individual would be classified (in addition to occupational categories) to be of Argentine descent, Jewish descent and German descent. I argue that they shouldn't also be categorized as of Asian descent. Or a Canadian of Polish-Jewish descent but whose family has lived in Canada for four generations. These are the kind of real-life examples I was working with.] Liz, In the statement above you conflate nationality with descent. The person in question would be an Argentinian national of Jewish-German descent. The person in the second example would be a Canadian national of Polish-Jewish descent. Descent refers to the absolute origin or origins of persons in terms of ethnicity, culture and sometimes religion. Nationality refers to the country in which a person was born. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 04:53, 30 November 2013 (UTC)GarrettRutledge55
Do we need to do an RfC on this topic? I would like to get this resolved rather than in this stalemate. Liz Read! Talk! 17:07, 30 November 2013 (UTC) Obi-wan, When you mentioned that categorizing Jews as persons of Middle Eastern would necessitate classifying Latinos as persons of European descent, you were confusing Latinos with Hispanics. Hispanics, like Jews, trace their origin to a specific place. Because Hispanics self-identify as being of Spanish descent they are categorized as such by the US Census Bureau. Please keep in mind, proximate descent plays no role in this categorization. Moreover, Latino is an ethnolinguistic category whereas Hispanic denotes national origin and ethnicity. Jews, like Hispanics, trace their origins to Israel and maintain a language, culture and religion consistent with that identified place of origin. Thus, Jew denotes Middle Eastern descent in the same way Hispanic denotes Spanish descent. Attaching categories of descent to ethnic groups based on proximate descent only is too exclusive to function properly as a method of categorization. I strongly suggest that editors not adopt methods of categorization that A) conflict with the ways ethnic groups self-identify and B) are inconsistent with norms of categorization. We're fast approaching a time when Wikipedia will cease to be relevant due to the bad practices of editors. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 02:31, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Cullen, As I've stated already, this is not my definitions of "who is a Jew". Rather, this is a Judeo-normative definition of who is a Jew. Converts to Judaism are a rarity, so the question of how the Jewish world should regard converts to the faith has never merited widespread discussion. I imagine converts are a rarity due to the fact that Jews don't proselytize. I've met one convert to the faith. He observed the high holidays, read Torah and went to shul, but continued to self-identify as an Irish-American, not as an ethnic Jew. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 06:40, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 Again, Jews are an ethnicity. Judaism is a religion practiced by many, but not all ethnic Jews. The world's most famous atheist, Karl Marx was an ethnic Jew. This delineation is widely understood and accepted. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 06:45, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Obi-wan, I would agree with you if Jewish descent were not explicitly Middle Eastern. My impression is that editors are constructing a system of categorization meets a need for simplicity. If that system were or could be made compatible with norms of categorization and the ways groups self-identify then we would not be crossing swords. Garrettrutledge55 (talk) 07:02, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Cullen, By your own admission, the number of converts to Judaism is statistically small. It might interest you to know that ethnic Jews make up the bulk of persons converting to Judaism. When the State of Israel brings ethnic Jews to Israel, those Jews tend to convert as part of the Aliyah (coming to Israel) process if they were not observant already. These are the converts of which the State of Israel speaks. Allow me clarify my earlier statement. The conversion of non-Jews to Judaism is a rarity. Because these conversions are rare, the way in which an ethnic Jew should regard a non-Jew who has converted to Judaism has not been widely discussed among Jews. I qualify this statement by comparing the discussion of conversion among Jews to the discussion of inter-ethnic marriage among Jews. The latter occurs frequently due to a rise in secular attitudes among Jews and has been widely discussed. This is not to say that ethnic Jews do not welcome or recognize conversion to the faith. It is a fact that most US Jewish congregants do. This is to say the conversion of non-Jews to Judaism is not a fixture of Jewish life. If you're synagogue has 20 persons who've undergone a formal conversion, then His hand must be upon you all. Well done. 67.182.154.25 (talk) 21:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 Help with Hebrew needed in an unlikely location....an Australian cicada...Ok, I need help with hte derivation of Thoph in Thopha saccata. The 1843 source is French and gives it as "tambour", but tambour is a disambiguation - and leads to a stringed instrument (???). Can anyone familiar with Hebrew give a more accurate meaning (and it'd be great if we could stick the Hebrew letters in the article, which I am not sure I know how to do). Cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:52, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
There is a discussion taking place about whether to include this website as an External link at the article 2012 Munich artworks discovery. Additional input welcome. Bus stop (talk) 15:54, 1 December 2013 (UTC) |
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