Talk:Intelligent design

	Please read before starting
This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic. Newcomers to Wikipedia and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid here. Wikipedia policy notes for new editors: A common objection made often by new arrivals is that the article presents ID in an unsympathetic light and that criticism of ID is too extensive or violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are: NPOV: Fringe theories and pseudoscience (WP:PSCI) NPOV: Undue weight (WP:UNDUE) NPOV: Making necessary assumptions (WP:MNA) NPOV: Giving "equal validity" (WP:GEVAL). The contributors to the article continually strive to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the content forking guidelines. These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research (WP:NOR) and Cite Your Sources (WP:CITE). Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Wikipedia's policy No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA) and to abide by consensus (WP:CON). This talk page is to discuss the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the article itself and not the inherent worth of Intelligent Design. See WP:NOT. If you wish to discuss or debate the validity of intelligent design or promote intelligent design please do so at talk.origins or other fora. This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Wikipedia article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.
Important pointers for new editors: This article uses scientific terminology, and as such, the use of the word 'theory' to refer to anything outside of a recognised scientific theory is ambiguous. Please use words such as 'concept', 'notion', 'idea', 'assertion'; see Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Theories and hypotheses. Although at times heated, the debates contained here are meant to improve the Intelligent Design article. Reasoned, civil discourse is the best means to make an opinion heard. Rude behavior not only distracts from the subject(s) at hand, but tends to make people deride or ignore what was said. Please use edit summaries. Challenges and proposals to this article's content must be in alignment with Wikipedia's core content policies: WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:NOR. If you make a suggestion that does not align with them, you can expect a pointer to the appropriate policies; giving such a pointer is not a form of rudeness, but meant to help smooth the process of building the encyclopedia. To respect your own time and that of others editors, if you receive such a pointer to policy, you should take the time to read and understand the policies before re-raising the issue. If you have been pointed to policy, but continue to argue the matter ad nauseam without the benefit of being supported by policy, you should not expect a full response, but rather that your discussions will be archived or userfied. Again, this is not rudeness or incivility; it is out of respect for the time and patience of all the editors participating and in the interest of maintaining a smooth-running encyclopedia:Wikipedia talkpage guidelines do not allow for raising and re-raising objections to content that is well-aligned with content policy, and there is a specific policy against doing that: WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT (which classifies it as disruptive editing). It's better for everybody if we don't allow things to get to that point. Please peruse the FAQ and the partial index of points that have already been discussed, and use the search box below, to ensure that you are not rehashing old topics. Old topics resurrected without new evidence are likely to be ignored and archived quickly.

Perceived bias of the article; Poll

Like many other newcomers to this article, I was initially offended by its anti-ID bias. However, I have found there is some basis for the stance: it reflects the hostile attitude of the scientific community toward ID. WP is supposed to reflect mainstream views. Much discussion would be avoided by a careful reading of the yellow box at the top of the talk page. I decided to follow that lead for the simple reason it is established here.

Otoh, WP:YESPOV (part of the core policy, WP:NPOV) does call for nonjudgmental language: "Prefer nonjudgmental language. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject), although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity. Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Do not editorialize."

Example of hostile attitude in a tertiary source by Michael Ruse: "Scientifically Creationism is worthless, philosophically it is confused, and theologically it is blinkered beyond repair."
(This statement follows a discussion of whether or not IDT (nod to Andrew) is creationism.) We are all aware of the hostile attitude in primary and secondary sources in academia.

Example of NPOV: Notice how Thomas F. Glick in the Encyclopedia Britannica avoids the word pseudoscience: "Meanwhile, intelligent design appeared incapable of generating a scientific research program, which inevitably broadened the gap between it and the established norms of science."

My decided preference would be a dispassionate exposition of the concept set in the framework of the science of origins as seen in the Ency. Brit. treatment. Yopienso (talk) 18:32, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Poll

Which model--Glick's or Ruse's--best adheres to WP standards?

I guess my response is that this poll does not really do anything to really address this article. First, regarding NPOV, policies more or less state that regarding matters of science (and cosmology/cosmogony/creationism/intelligent design is more or less a matter of science, or so it would be perceived by those who are not religious) the predominant scientific opinion is the "neutral" one, and so far as I can see (as someone who is himself occasionally criticized as being maybe too Christian here) the scientific community has more or less overwhelmingly rejected ID, to the point that it qualifies as fringe as per WP:FRINGE. The sources I have seen recently have more or less taken the stand that ID is more a legalistic technique of misdirection than a scientific concept per se. Now, by saying this, I am not saying that the scientific view of creation is without flaws - it clearly isn't, and many scientists themselves would say that. But science is based on scientific evidence, and, unfortunately, the ID people are really forced to resort to raising "what if" scenarios as one of their primary arguments, and such arguments do not help address matters of science. Their only other basis is basically religious texts and the interpretation of them, and that isn't particularly scientific either. So basically, ID, which also has been called "creation science" and similar, more or less has produced little if any really scientifically acceptable evidence in support of its positions, and that places it on the fringe.

Honestly, the best sources for such contested topics are probably the most highly regarded academic/scientific reference sources or overviews in non-religious academic literature. (Yes, there is a question as to whether "scientific" journals are really objective about religious matters, but that is a different matter, and there is more or less universal agreement that religious journals aren't objective.) I think I know of a few reference works on the topic of "creationism", and some of the rest of you might find that if you consult WorldCat you might have some available to you as well. For contentious topics of this kind, I think at least first consulting the relevant most highly regarded reference sources is probably one of the best way to approach such topics. And, FWIW, I think that has already, to at least some extent, been done, and the copy as we have it is what was agreed upon after such consultation. John Carter (talk) 20:52, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

• Polling is evil! (am sure there's an essay about that somewhere) Thanks, John, for helpful thoughts. Regarding policy, as it says at the top of this page WP:PSCI policy applies: "The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such. An explanation of how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories should be prominently included. This helps us to describe differing views fairly." Thanks, Yopienso, for the Britannica link, but their statement cited above is anything but a clear description, and indeed the article as a whole is surprisingly poor. For example, "a federal court ruled that intelligent design was not clearly distinct from creationism and therefore should be excluded from the curriculum on the basis of earlier decisions" misrepresents the Kitzmiller findings, including "that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory". I had to check up the Britannica assertion that in American public schools, "instruction in any form of religion is constitutionally forbidden". A clearer formulation is that "religion may be taught where appropriate so long as it amounts to objective instruction about religion rather than indoctrination."[1] On the relationship of science to religion, generally religion and science co-exist and possible conflicts have been resolved. This isn't the case with some sects, in particular forms of creationism, but of course they have theological differences with other religious views. So, in summary, "The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such" and it's well established by the sources discussed above that ID is pseudoscience. . . dave souza, talk 21:42, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of evil, here is the entire lede paragraph of Adolf Hitler:

Adolf Hitler (German: [ˈadɔlf ˈhɪtlɐ] ; 20 April 1889 – 30 April 1945) was an Austrian-born German politician and the leader of the Nazi Party (Template:Lang-de (NSDAP); National Socialist German Workers Party). He was chancellor of Germany from 1933 to 1945 and dictator of Nazi Germany (as Führer und Reichskanzler) from 1934 to 1945. Hitler was at the centre of Nazi Germany, World War II in Europe, and the Holocaust.

It states factually who this evil person was, but nowhere in the first sentence is any negative or judgmental description made. In the second sentence, it says he was a "dictator", that's sorta negative. Lastly only in the third sentence is he associated, in factual and non-judgmental language with WWII and the Holocaust.

So how is it that ID is sooooo much more pseudoscientific than Hitler is evil, that ID must be identified as such in the very first sentence? You cannot credibly claim that this article "Prefer[s] nonjudgmental language. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject..." It goes out of its way to depict ID in a negative manner from the very first sentence. It doesn't even make any appearance or tone of neutrality. It violates the second pillar of Wikipedia. 71.169.182.44 (talk) 23:57, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

• Agree with Dave 100%, we shouldn't whitewash the facts especially hen we have abundant WP:RS to back the current wording. Not even going to comment on the IP argument on how apparently we believe "ID is sooooo much more pseudoscientific than Hitler is evil", not worth the effort wasted typing. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 00:6, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

It's a question, and User:Gaba_p is evading it. The point is how one decidedly evil person in history is depicted dispassionately, accurately, and neutrally in one Wikipedia article, and a controversial topic is portrayed far more negatively than necessary in another Wikipedia article, Gaba's Argumentum ad lapidem notwithstanding. 71.169.182.44 (talk) 00:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

ID is being depicted "dispassionately, accurately, and neutrally" as well. The term pseudoscience is factual, accurate, neutral and well sourced. IPS' red herring notwithstanding. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 01:40, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

"ID is being depicted "dispassionately, accurately, and neutrally" as well." Just because someone writes this, doesn't mean that the claim is accurate. And Gaba still hasn't answered the question. Nor has even touched it. 71.169.182.44 (talk) 18:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

"Just because someone writes this, doesn't mean that the claim is accurate", just because someone claims a claim is not accurate, doesn't mean that the claim is accurate. Should we continue with this "factual inception"? I haven't answered the question because I do not feel it necessitates an answer. What adheres to WP standards is using WP:RS to report from a WP:NPOV following WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE. The question is ill-posed as it simplifies the issue a great deal as if there was a simple choice between two approaches to be made. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 18:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

• Agree with John Carter. Basically agree with Dave. (I supported inclusion of the word pseudoscience a week or so ago on logical grounds.) Disagree with you, though, that Glick misrepresented Kitzmiller; he just couched it in less disparaging words. Agree with the IP; the Hitler article is a prime example of objectivity without editorializing. Gaba, I'm hoping for responses that delineate the differences among "whitewash", "objectivity," and "disparagement."
  

Is the object of our article to inform or persuade? to describe ID and how it is unscientific, or to make sure the reader recognizes it as nonsense? Yopienso (talk) 01:11, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

• I guess the above can be criticised for not being about a concrete editing proposal but personally I applaud every effort to try to find common ground. I find the posts of Yopienso and John Carter quite reasonable, and very similar to my own thoughts even though their starting point is very different. I find Dave souza's position about the EB (which would equally apply to the way WP differs from other neutral sources such as dictionaries, online encyclopedias of philosophy, and so on), quite wrong and needing better discussion because I think it is defining a perennial point of debate which is part of why the lead keeps changing. (So I am positive about it. It is helpful.) My remarks on this: Not only do we not cover broader meanings of the term ID found in such sources but we also dump our readers much more quickly into one specialized meaning without giving them context found even in many quite polemic sources. There are many ways to skin a cat, but my own proposal which I believe would cover all concerns, would be to open with some context such as we could get from other encyclopedic sources, and then home in on what our local consensus wants this article to be about. Just for example, here is something to discuss, which uses the dictionary meaning that was recently deleted from the opening sentence:

Intelligent design, broadly understood, is a belief that nature's order results chiefly from "purposeful design by an intelligent being rather than from chance and other undirected natural processes".[cite dictionary] But more specifically intelligent design is the term used to refer not to traditional "arguments from design", but rather to pseudoscientific claims that this concept can be worked into "scientific theories", that should be considered valid alternative to mainstream scientific theories such as especially evolutionary theory.

When I arrived at this article there was a position often repeated which said that policies forbid us from mentioning broad and narrow meanings of an article's main name, but that was never true, and hopefully practical ideas like this can be more considered in good faith.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:17, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Yopienso -- neither is really WP norms Yes, Glick is not the bunch of judgemental adjectives from anti-ID Ruse, but neither has cites for verifiability or is really built like a WP article. Markbassett (talk) 00:52, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, if the question above had been phrased in such a way as to indicate the question was about whether the article should contain the word pseudoscience in its first sentence or paragraph, I would argue that the answer might well be "no." The reference source I quoted above did not use the word pseudoscience, or any clear synonym, in its ID article, and its article on "Creationism" is on a rather broad topic including theological creationism, etc. However, its short (3 sentence) article on "Creation Science," immediately after the "Creationism" article, does start with "Creation science is a science-styled activity...", and that phrasing clearly raises the issue of whether it is "science" or "science-styled," which is effectively a synonym for pseudoscience. I can and do see, perhaps, some valid reason to perhaps start discussion regarding how much weight to give pseudoscience and its synonyms in the lead, and maybe an RfC to that effect, but if a real RfC were to be started it would best follow more clearly the basic guidelines for such, with perhaps specific alternative phrasings being offered than a vague call to follow the style, lead, or model of others, as none of those terms really provide any solid indication of the exact phrasings or versions to be proposed. John Carter (talk) 01:21, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Request for comment

I guess RfC is the preferred term for a poll. The poll got paragraphs of input, but no one directly answered my question! I'll pose it again and request that responses be in this format:

• Glick's, because . . .
• Ruse's, because . . .

The question: Which model--Glick's or Ruse's--best adheres to WP standards?

This is not a request for a critique of either Glick's or Ruse's article, but a question about the proper tone of a WP article on intelligent design. Do we dispassionately explain the concept and the expert, mainstream view of it, or do we adopt the disparaging tone of the experts?
This is not an attempt to shut down the other discussion under "Poll," either. Yopienso (talk) 00:35, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

• Glick's appears to be a more neutral, objective approach to explaining ID. I haven't read the Brittanica entry on ID in awhile, but from what I remember it is much more neutral than our WP article here. Cla68 (talk) 00:41, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Cla68, but I know it's more objective. The question is whether his approach is more in line with WP's underlying philosophy than Ruse's? Or is Ruse's more the model of a proper WP article? Which is more valuable to the project in this case: objectivity, or speaking in the same voice as the experts? Which do the 5 pillars support? Yopienso (talk) 00:52, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Of course a more objective approach is more in line with WP's policies and guidelines. And by the way, the scientific viewpoint doesn't necessarily even represent the majority viewpoint on ID or other theistic science philosophies. The self-professed Christians in the West way outnumber the number of scientists. Cla68 (talk) 01:00, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

We go with the mainstream scientific, not popular, view. Yopienso (talk) 02:35, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

The NPOV policy states "All significant viewpoints in reliable sources" not "mainstream scientific." Cla68 (talk) 05:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

This isn't an WP:RFC. RfCs are meant to bring in outsiders. It's also badly worded - or rather the question is inappropriate as Yopienso is I believe saying. Dougweller (talk) 07:12, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

What's inappropriate about the question? Yopienso (talk) 08:26, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

It's relevance to the article isn't explicit. Even straw polls, which is what this is at the moment, need to be explicitly relevant. I could guess as to the relevance but I might find that I was wrong. I will also note that encyclopedias aren't the best sources - we normally try to use secondary sources, but that's another issue. I may have misunderstood you and if so I apologise. I don't know what the implications would be if either was favored. Dougweller (talk) 08:54, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Yopienso, also see my opening comment in my latest posts in the above section. I do not think Doug is being negative about your thoughts on this, but rather questioning how best to approach them. It is also partly a question of the WP jargon you used (RfC), which implies a very concrete proposal, that is known to reflect the opinions of editors who disagree. But a discussion of competing rationales is always a good first step, whether the aim is an RfC or something other approach. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:09, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. As you say, I was asking about the best way to approach this. And I put my comment in the wrong place, moved it now. Dougweller (talk) 12:07, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I think it's more of a straw poll and probably should be relabeled as such. Cla68 (talk) 07:44, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Also if it is a straw poll then the questions should be clear proposals normally. I think Yopienso is asking for rationales, i.e. seeking consensus, which is exactly what we should be doing.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:12, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Cla68, if you go through those policy pages you will see that it is clear that "reliable sources" for the theory of evolution are mainstream scientific. At the moment, this article is basically entirely about the term "intelligent design" as it relates to the debate about teaching evolution, and while I think there are valid concerns about the dab issues that raises (because there are other meanings of the term, such as are found in dictionaries and encyclopedias), given that context, the policy is clear.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:17, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Yopienso, I have to agree with Dougweller about the ambiguity of this poll: I think everyone wants this article to be NPOV, objective, and encyclopaedic (i.e. no one wants to "adopt the disparaging tone" exemplified by a single section in Ruse's source), but without further context it's difficult to comment. I have no problem either dropping or retaining the label of pseudoscientific theory in the first sentence, if that's what we're discussing. I think we are all agreed that the sources illustrate that ID is pseudoscience, and, as dave souza noted, WP:PSCI states that "[t]he pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such." Does this require us to place it in the first sentence? No... but it doesn't preclude this placement either. Furthermore, I don't understand how including this designation in the first sentence is inherently POV, as some seem to claim; ID is pseudoscience regardless of where in the lead we make that connection. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 15:12, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

This poll is no better than the above section, because it seems to assume without evidence that the two choices presented are the only possible options, and that has not been demonstrated yet itself. I have a 2003 Encyclopedia of Science and Religion from Macmillan in front of me and on p. 463 of the 1st volume the very short article (3 sentences) on "Intelligent design" says "Intelligent design is the concept that some things - especially some life forms or parts of life forms - must have been assembled (at least for the first time) by the direct action of a non-natural agent." p. 190 of that same volume has a section of the "Creationism" article on "Intelligent design creationism" (5 sentence section) of which the first sentence is "The Intelligent Design movement is a recent entry into this arena of creationist perspectives on the character and role of divine action in effecting the assembly of new creaturely forms - especially new life forms - in the course of time." I think it might be reasonable to consider those other options as well. Both sentences seem to me personally to be maybe a bit long, and there is presumably a reasonable question whether the goals for first sentences in the articles of that source are the same as ours, but I believe that they at least establish that the either/or proposal being offered here is perhaps less than well founded. John Carter (talk) 20:14, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

John Carter, the points you are raising will presumably not seem relevant to Mister Dub because for Mister Dub it is clear that this article is about a specific usage of the term "Intelligent Design" whereby it is insistently presented as a normal type of scientific theory just like the theory of evolution which it disagrees with. Mister Dub believes this is the most common precise meaning of the term "Intelligent Design" (rather than the most common context in which it is discussed), while admitting that the term also has a broader sense such as found in dictionaries and encyclopedias that would seem to have aims similar to Wikipedia's. If you disagree with those primary assumption, as I do, you need to address them first or else you are "talking past" your interlocutor. For my own part I would say that even reading the sources which discuss ONLY the anti-Darwinian "theory" do not themselves use the term "Intelligent Design" in one way, nor as a technical term with a clear definition, but actually use the term to refer to both a movement, a "theory" and the same broad concept found in dictionaries, encyclopedias etc. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:29, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I may well have gotten the formatting wrong. And, FWIW, the encyclopedia I used, which seems to me at least probably the best one dealing with "science and religion", probably also, like most encyclopedias, covers as many of the major concepts and groups/movements related to its field, as articles and subarticles, as possible. I tend to think they also might be among the best indicators for titles, as they tend to be written by some sort of academic experts in the field. You raise a point, possibly/probably a very good one, about whether the modern intelligent design movement is itself the most frequent usage of the phrase ID, and I honestly don't know the answer to that. And, FWIW, I've never seen anywhere around wikipedia that it is the case that the most common usage of a term by a proponent group is necessarily automatically accepted as a title. And, from what I remember, not having the copies I made of the articles from that encyclopedia with me here today at work, the ID movement is more or less considered in the ID articles/sections of the example in question, which is similar to a lot of other specialist "encyclopedias" devoted to narrow topics. I've found at least one "encyclopedic source" devoted to Thomas Merton, for instance.

The question here seems to be more about the idea of what is not only the best title for an article on the ID movement, which I'm fairly sure is notable enough in and of itself for a stand-alone article, but also for what would be the best title for an article on the belief system, or whatever, which the movement puts forward. Fron that source at least, the existing title would seem to be maybe best fitted to the belief, although, admittedly, the ID movement is maybe the most significant subtopic of that topic. With the millions of articles we have here today, and the sometimes overlapping content of them, I think this topic may be one of many where we are trying to determine what content goes in which article, and in those cases finding out how many articles we should have, and what they should cover, would seem to me to be one of the essential first steps. John Carter (talk) 14:43, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, I sure bombed on this one! But never mind; trying to patch up my question--which still seems clear and sensible to me--won't help anything. Excelsior! Yopienso (talk) 00:51, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Yopienso -- you didn't bomb out If nothing else, you showed bias is worse for ID than Hitler ;-). I do think pseudoscience is a vague derogatory label ('that's not real science'), and not 'neutral' (would that person accept 'Darwin is pseudoscience' as neutral?... has been flamed as interpretive rather than objective demonstrable mathematical Hard science and methinks the lady doth protest oer much ...) Markbassett (talk) 00:57, 20 May 2014 (UTC) p.s. Thanks for a meaningful use of Godwin's Law, now if we could only add a Star Trek tropism ...

I agree you did not bomb out Yopienso. You might not have set up a clear poll yet, but you raised some of the issues in a way which is probably a necessary first step anyway.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:29, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

We all agree that the Ruse technique is not appropriate here, but it is worth considering that the reason Ruse can use extreme language with what we would call weasel words is that Ruse signs the article as the author—like all the other text in the article, "Creationism is worthless" is the opinion of its author. It may be argued that Ruse's language is unhelpful for various reasons, but it is clearly Ruse's language and the reader understands that "worthless" is the opinion of the author. By contrast, an article here has no particular author, so a word like "worthless" would be meaningless as it would merely show the attitude of some editor unknown to the reader. The Glick article is much more subtle but again far too weasly, in the opposite direction. Glick does a good job of presenting the ID view of itself, but such an approach is unworkable at Wikipedia—should cold fusion be written from the point of view of its proponents (an exciting breakthrough that any day now will provide unlimited and virtually free energy)? The fact that cold fusion is totally bogus would be relegated to a paragraph at the end of the article? Johnuniq (talk) 11:33, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I think that in order to be able to write on Wikipedia one needs to be able to distinguish between describing someone's opinions (even if they are universally agreed to be wrong) and putting those opinions into Wikipedia's voice. One is demanded by WP policy, and the other is against WP policy. Editors on this talkpage seem to sometimes willfully confuse the two, and that is really unhelpful. I am not closely familiar with Glick but at first sight I see no sign at all that Glick is confused by this distinction, which is so important for writing in an encyclopedic style (the style demanded by WP policy), and indeed his editors would not have allowed it, and our policies clearly tell us to trust such authorities, and not our own personal feelings. Let's be honest: there is no worthwhile argument to be had about what mainstream science says about evolution versus the intelligent design movement, but equally so there is no real argument in published sources about what the movement believe. We can and should report both things somehow, and the only discussion is about the details? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:45, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Considering Johnuniq's post makes me realize that maybe Yopienso's question was more important than I thought. Just to state what I thought was obvious: Glick's style is encyclopedic or at least the EB is pretty much the most well-known example of such a source, and is certainly subject to quite some checking. So unless his article in EB is a very odd one, WP policy tells us to write like that. Ruse's style is not encylcopedic and is of a style that WP policy clears tells us not to use. So actually there is no poll necessary on at least this question. The answer is clear and if there is serious disagreement on that then I think this particular point is better handled on a community noticeboard somewhere because it concerns interpretation of core content policy, not local editing preferences.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:53, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Wholehearted agreement with the substance of what Andrew Lancaster says above. While I myself have some questions about EB in some particular cases, I agree that it is almost certainly more NPOV than the other. Reference books intended to be used by the general audience, including significantly focused reference works, like, for instance, an encyclopedia of Hindu mythology, would probably also be among the better choices, depending on the reviews of such works and, in some particular cases, the content of specific articles. There are cases I know of in some religion encyclopedias where the only living person to have significantly addressed a topic in other works, other than perhaps some reviews of his work questioning his methodology, writes an encyclopedic article in which which he also put forward some rather, uh, new and unique (aka woo) interpretations of the topic, and seems to promote them in his enyclopedia articles. In cases like this, I would think the NPOV noticeboard might be the best one to go to if one were to choose a specific noticeboard. John Carter (talk) 14:52, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

General kudos : this is getting good and substantive discussion, and also basis explanations seem generally helpful towards ability to reach consensus on some things... Markbassett (talk) 02:55, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Proposal for the opening words: for discussion

In the recent discussions about the lead I gave a proposal for opening lines which I think has none of the various issues that various editors seem to have with not only the current one, but all the many constantly changing ones of the past. I know of no clear problem with the proposal and certainly no conflict with sources or policies. Here it is:

Intelligent design, broadly understood, is a belief that nature's order results chiefly from "purposeful design by an intelligent being rather than from chance and other undirected natural processes".[cite dictionary] But more specifically intelligent design is the term used to refer not to traditional "arguments from design", but rather to pseudoscientific claims that this concept can be worked into "scientific theories", that should be considered valid alternative to mainstream scientific theories such as especially evolutionary theory.

Did anyone else spot any problems with it? It makes it clear that there is a broader meaning, but it also makes it clear that there is a specific meaning which is frequently referred to as pseudoscientific. There are many ways to skin a cat of course, but no recent versions of the lead have done this. Please note I am not asking for an election, but rationales. Elections on this article consistently attract editors who are not following the details of such discussions, and can not therefore lead to a stable lead. Hence my less ambitious question to start with: is there anything clearly wrong with this proposal? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:57, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Why "broadly understood"? Is that because ID is being defined in a more general manner than the term in common use? It appears that once again the central issue being raised is whether this article is focused on a centuries-old form of argument, or on the modern ID movement. If the former, then a general dictionary might be a suitable source for the definition, while if the latter, the existing wording (straight from the horse's mouth) is best. The proposed second sentence is unnecessarily complex because it is based on what ID is not. Johnuniq (talk) 09:56, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Johnuniq, actually I personally do not mind so much what the article is about (unlike most editors of this article). But we do know that the term ID has a confusing range of uses, and therefore my concern is disambiguating. This is not just a random interest of mine, but a concern based on looking at the long term pattern of debates and edits to the opening lines, which all seem to be trying to avoid confronting this relatively simple issue. If we know that our article uses a term in a way different from many or most similar respectable tertiary sources, then we know we should be careful.

My understanding of the current local consensus is that the article is mainly aiming to be about a narrow meaning, not the broad meaning. (This means Wikipedia takes an approach quite different to most tertiary sources with similar encyclopedic aims, but this is not my main concern.)

But note that it also seems quite clear that we our local consensus is trying to do something very difficult for a committee of editors, because none of our sources really seem to stick to strict narrow meanings of "intelligent design" like a technical term, but rather there is a spectrum of meanings which (I think) can not all be well-understood without understanding other parts of the "spectrum" which are nearly always discussed in the same contexts. So we can not simply say that we have a simple choice between one meaning and another. We can not simply isolate out a new definition, unless we want to allow originality.

Here is a new wording to consider:

Intelligent design, broadly understood, is a belief that nature's order results chiefly from "purposeful design by an intelligent being rather than from chance and other undirected natural processes".[cite dictionary] But more specifically, intelligent design is associated with controversial claims that such purposeful design can be the basis of valid "scientific theories", that give competing alternatives to mainstream science, such as especially evolutionary theory in biology.

Does this fix the problems? Create any new ones? Not sure which one I prefer. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:27, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I have two problems with this. (1) "Controversial" may give the impression that there is a scientific controversy. And "controversial" is, well, I wish I could be more diplomatic about it, but ... "controversial" is a WP:Weasel word, or else a contentious WP:Label. (2) Others may differ, but the wording about "basis of ... theories" and "competing alternatives" to me may suggest that ID does not only claim that there is a basis or alternative, but that ID describes a basis or alternative. Most readers would think that claiming that something exists entails a description of what it is that exists. TomS TDotO (talk) 12:59, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

The suggested rewrite does not fit the rest of the article. When I think of pseudoscience, ID is the paradigm. I think the current wording is fine and based on sources. --I am One of Many (talk) 18:20, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Another attempt to turn the article topic into the generic argument from design, rather than this specific topic, an issue well covered by the disambiguation header. The basis is a tertiary source, one particular dictionary definition which lacks the detail and clarification expected from a secondary source, and doesn't say anything about "broadly understood". The same dictionary seems to lack a definition for argument from design or teleological argument, so it looks inadequate as a source on the topic, and there's no reason for us to quote it without attribution. As Johnuniq says, the definition currently quoted is the one specific to this topic area. The remaining wording is confusing or muddled: "that should be considered valid alternative" is misleading. So, I don't think these suggestions work as an introductory sentence. With better sourcing something could work later in the lead when clarifying the relationship of ID to the generic design argument, though note that ID includes other arguments. . dave souza, talk 18:27, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

More or less agree with Dave souza regarding the proposed change in wording proposed. There is, maybe, at least theoretically, a question as to whether there might be some form of inherent systemic bias in assuming a description from within the scientific establishment of the West, which often has, at least implicitly, a tendency toward Scientism which might itself be considered a bias. This might particularly be the case in issues relating to the broad field of the interaction between science and religion (or science and worldviews which differ from those of the often broadly Western scientific establishment). And there is, at least to me as someone who hasn't studied the field extensively, a possibility that in a sense both the possibly "scientism"-biased scientific community may at times make errors of inclusion or exclusion in what is or is not ID for purposes of proselytization, and, maybe, incidents when some proponents of broadly pseudoscientific ideas perhaps misrepresent themselves as ID for some purposes of their own. That sort of thing is known to happen in what might be broadly called the area of Christianity as well.

Having said all that, I don't know exactly which sources would be free of such potential bias. Having gone to WorldCat just now, and looked in their topic "intelligent design (teleology), I find Culture wars: an encyclopedia of issues, viewpoints, and voices, M. E. Sharpe, 2010, Science, religion, and society: an encyclopedia of history, culture, and controversy, M. E. Sharpe, 2007, Icons of evolution: an encyclopedia of people, evidence, and controversies, Greenwood, 2008, and Evolution, creationism, and intelligent design, Greenwood, 2010, which maybe along with the Encyclopedia of Science and Religion seem to me to be maybe the closest things to what might (maybe, I haven't checked reviews) be most likely to come at the issue of ID from neither a pro-religious nor pro-scientism approach. Maybe it might be useful to check them, and the reviews of them? I dunno, and I'll stop butting in now. John Carter (talk) 17:15, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Individuals are free to disagree with me here, but I get the (possibly unfounded) impression that maybe the best way to go regarding the first few sentences regarding a topic at the interaction of science and religion might be to use language similar to that of the only reference work I know of which so far as I can tell seems to explicitly try to be NPOV between the two, the Encyclopedia of Religion and Science. Here are the beginning sentences of their relevant articles. I would of course agree that it would make perfect sense in perhaps maybe the 3rd or 4th sentence to say something to the effect that it tries to present itself in a scientific light, despite the fact that the specialists in the relevant branches of science who do not seem to have some sort of investment in what might broadly be called religious beliefs lend very little, if any, credence to the supposed science of these proposals. I think it might also be relevant to check the Wikipedia:WikiProject Skepticism/Encyclopedic articles, which doesn't have a specific article regarding ID but does have one regarding "Creation science" and see if it offers any sort of definition of the term ID. There are other reference sources which presumably deal with this topic in both pro-religious and pro-science (sometimes specifically agnostic/atheistic science) reference books, and to me anyway the best way to determine what definition we use is to look at the existing academic reference sources and look to see what sort of definitions they use. John Carter (talk) 21:53, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Basically no, we shouldn't start a sentence with anything as fuzzy as 'broadly understood' or a reference a dic def. "Broadly understood"? By whom? Not to mention that such a lead would fail to do the purpose of a lead, which is to summarise the article. Guettarda (talk) 22:49, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I completely oppose the proposed rewording of the beginning of the lead. ID is pseudoscience, does anyone here seriously contest that statement and if so, on what basis? Therefore the article needs to state that fact right up front. The proposed rewordings introduces weasel words, gives opportunity for uninformed readers to get entirely the wrong idea about the acceptance of ID in the scientific community and veers way too far into WP:UNDUE territory. I am tired of the relentless campaign being waged by a few editors here that appear to be trying to water down any perceived criticism of ID and who seem to want to give it way more credence than it deserves. It is time to stop this. - Nick Thorne ^talk 01:10, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I echo every word in Nick Thorne's comment above, especially the last part: It is time to stop this. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 05:05, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

@Gaba P and Nick Thorne, your posts on this article are consistently inappropriate in a straightforward way. If you are annoyed by this type of discussion take a break. Please cease posting off topic ad hominem posts here which are purely designed to block discussion.

@Guettarda, the distinction between broad and narrow definitions is clearly not "fuzzy", but rather simple. If you are saying that this distinction is not found in our sources, that raises the issues of whether any sources clearly define distinct the narrow meaning WP uses, as opposed to the clear broad meaning we can find in things like dictionaries. I am trying to find a solution that Wikipedia can handle, but there are several ways to skin a cat, and I have pointed out before that there really is a strong case for saying that this article will never be able to distinguish itself, clearly from being the article about the intelligent design movement. (Unless we use original research.) I'll put it another way: if the problem with my proposal is that it assumes there is a narrow meaning and a broad meaning, then this has to logically be a problem with the whole way the current version of the article is made.

@TomS TDotO. The word controversial is in only one of the above two drafts. I think it is optional. I do not understand your second concern.

@Dave. With all due respect your last sentence shows that you understand that I am not trying to change the topic which means you know that your first sentence is misleading. You are clearly (as usual) distorting me and the sources and the discussions above. Can you please stop that? Searching for something concrete in your post I only find insinuations about side issues. We know, for example, that the broad definition is not only found in that one dictionary. I have already suggested in recent discussion that we should collect a few tertiary definitions in order to see what is really a "common term" (not order to use them as sources for details). And you say a sentence is misleading without explaining why. Also see my reply to Guettarda.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:00, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

"It is time to stop this" seems about right. The opening paragraph appears to have been rather well crafted, from the mainstream scientific pov as required, and I am perplexed as to the need for any change at all, let alone a total rewrite. No justification for such a thing. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 08:28, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes it is time to stop this. There is clear consensus for the existing lead which needs no further tinkering with.--Charles (talk) 09:12, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

First of all, I agree with "it's time to stop this". I am only responding to a request for clarification. ID is the claim that there is a theory. (In mathematical jargon, it is an existence statement, like there is a solution to this equation, without providing a solution. This is different from a constructive statement thus-and-so is a solution to this equation.) I believe that layman may construe the ID claim that there is a theory as, rather, "ID is a theory, which is not the case. (I believe that all careful writers follow.) TomS TDotO (talk) 10:39, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree that ID is not a theory it merely a view. That is one reason it has no testable predictions that can be derived from it. I am One of Many (talk) 16:35, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

TomS TDotO, so doesn't the first version cover both your concerns?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:10, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I also agree with "it's time to stop this". There is no sound argument that a change is needed in the lead. The proposed leads change the meaning of the lead in ways that are not consistent with the article. There is clear consensus that no change is needed in the lead for now, so I think we are done here. I am One of Many (talk) 16:35, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

All of the posts since my reply seem blissfully unaware of what they are replying to. Why would that be? I think it is obvious that one of the biggest problems this article has is lazy talk page posts, which confuse and distort and waste space. Please everyone wake up: not every criticism of this article is a questioning of mainstream science. Please read what you are replying to or else do not post here.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:24, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

No, I think that all of the posts since your previous one are saying words to the effect that "We don't agree with you, Andrew, please move on." -Roxy the dog (resonate) 12:08, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

No, we know what is going on. And most of the people here have already decided to ignore any of your posts. Its time to move on Andrew. I appreciate your contributions to many other sections of wikipedia. But Intelligent Design and the Teleological argument are not those sectors. I suggest you indeed move on from these subjects. NathanWubs (talk) 13:18, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

^ Yep. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 17:13, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Please let it go. Johnuniq (talk) 23:34, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

"We know what is going on". What then? I would like to know. Apparently I did not get the memo. :) Some possible misunderstandings:

• While it is being claimed that there is a clear conclusion above, once again there is none. There is stunning lack of any clear conclusions here except by straw polls (a problem which goes back long before I arrived in the discussion).
• It seems to be assumed that I must be promoting some particular position, because it is assumed everyone on this article is doing this. But actually I would be happy to see ANY CLEAR ARGUMENT/RATIONALE which "wins" and becomes clear. Without this, editors here are constantly attacking each other and misunderstanding each other. With better rationales on record, we should have a more stable article, and easier editing.
• Just to remind you all, the lead changes in major ways every few months, the talk page is a long term disaster covered in warning signs, and the main active editors struggle to even define the details of what this article is about in a clear and consistent way (for example to define how and why this article is not the same subject as covered in Intelligent Design Movement). Is that not something worth trying to avoid in the future?
• As far as I see it, but it has always been open to discussion, the biggest problem the article has is unclear boundaries concerning what it is about, and how to tell which sentences in which sources are relevant to that subject as opposed to related subjects (intelligent design movement, argument from design, etc).

As I have pointed out in other discussions, if we can not resolve that, then maybe the most practical alternative is to merge this article to Intelligent Design Movement, which effectively now cites the same sources and says the same things and has many of the same editors. (Such a decision would normally be better made by a broader part of the WP community.) I have not really seen anyone grappling with this point, and I have doubts that anyone understands the point I was making yet. This makes me reluctant to give up on this article.

• A question. My best guess about how sources are delineated as being relevant to this current article (as opposed to other subjects that might sometimes be called "intelligent design") is that any source talking about the intelligent design movement (the one involved in arguing that a supposedly scientific theory of intelligent design should be taught in schools etc) is deemed to be about the subject of this article. Am I right or is there another criterium being used?

If a good answer can at least be put on record, I think it would help this article? Please treat my question in good faith. :) --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:06, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Andrew, once again TLDR. You would be well advised to re read the posts made by the other editors before your last seemingly unending tome. Drop the stick. Now.

You are perfectly entitled to have whatever opinion you choose, just as we are perfectly entitled to ignore it. You would be far more persuasive if you kept your posts to a much shorter length. Please stop apparently trying to overwhelm the conversation by sheer weight of words. - Nick Thorne ^talk 10:18, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

What stick are you talking about, which opinion of mine do you say people disagree with? I asked a question about a rationale. Indeed, why spend so much effort trying to bury and distort?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:20, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Andrew, I'm not interested in playing games with you. Please just take the hint that quite a few editors here have given you. Go and find some other corner of Wikipedia to work on where you can do something constructive. Your posts on this talk page are becoming disruptive, they continue to rake over the coals of things that have already been discussed, sometimes multiple times, and your dissatisfaction with the results of those discussions does not give you the right to endlessly go on about it. Accept that the consensus is against you and if you can't do that here and begin to cooperate with others on this page then maybe the ID page is not for you. I can't put it any plainer than that. - Nick Thorne ^talk 15:33, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I register your refusal and/or inability to explain what you meant, and to answer my question. I read your series of posts as saying you see no need to be convincing, right? But editors express annoyance with each of us on Wikipedia all the time, and none of us can pay attention to all of them, or else Wikipedia would be a disaster. It is obvious that there are waves of different editors expressing emotions periodically on this particular talk page, because they see it is as connected to current affairs they feel strongly about, right? And in all good faith the aggressive and personal editors who post on this talk page are also the ones who show no evidence of knowledge or interest in the on-topic discussions. What do any of us do when confronted with such editors? Does every such complaint count as a vote and force us to obey? I do not think so.

I am asking a clear good faith and on-topic question above, which I hope can help future discussion, and I kindly request that it is treated in a good faith manner. Why not? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:14, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Andrew, please take the recent comments you received from multiple editors into consideration. You've been harping on the same issue for several months now, and received little-to-no support. We're tired of reading walls of text that say the exact same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again. We all know what you want and... we don't agree with you. You may even be correct, but Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs. You have not gained consensus, and at a certain point you have to drop the stick. Please listen to your fellow editors: "The community's rejection of your idea is not proof that they have failed to hear you. Stop writing, listen, and consider what the other editors are telling you." I think at this point, further disruptions will have to be reported. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 21:40, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

More posts about me. More posts which refer to mysterious un-defined understandings. Why not return to topic?

Not only am I trying to listen Mister Dub, I am now simply asking you guys (you apparently identify as a group with a united but to me unclear position) to explain your own position. I asked a very fundamental question about how you as a group delineate the relevant sources for this article, because it seems to be an important point to you. Why not just answer it? As far as I can see it is a new, clear, fundamental and un-answered question. Getting down to basics seems to be just what is called for in the situation you describe? Give me and other editors something meaningful to "listen" to and understand?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:21, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Is there a proposal to improve the article? The proposal in the OP has no consensus, so why are we still discussing who-knows-what? Johnuniq (talk) 07:53, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

It seems obvious that where it is not clear how different editors delineate what an article is about you will get problems much like the ones this article has: people talking past each other. Let's work together to break that circle.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:22, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

In this section, one editor has made a proposal and twelve have opposed it. One of the twelve has been partially supportive of some kind of rewording, but the other eleven show no concern with the text currently in the article. Perhaps we are all wrong. Nevertheless there is a clear consensus and since this is a collaborative community the only responsible action would be to drop the matter and find other pages requiring attention. There is an alternative—use a sandbox to prepare an RfC to determine whether there is any support for your proposal in the wider community, then make a single post of the RfC to this page and let the community decide. However, the time for "Let's work together to break that circle" is well past—you have over 1000 edits to this talk page since August 2013 (averaging 3.6 edits per day), and it is time to agree that whatever the problem is, there should be no further commentary. Johnuniq (talk) 09:37, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

• Indeed, I can start a new section in order to avoid my new question being swamped.
• An RfC would be appropriate if I had some kind of clear proposal such as if it really seems there is no practical reason not to merge this article with the Intelligent Design Movement article. But I am trying to keep an open mind.
• I think your edit count comments are useless throw-away remarks, either thoughtless, or else deliberately misleading. In either case disruptive. I have discussed lots of ideas on this talk page, and many have been accepted or at least got widely varying reactions. It is silly to try to caricature every post I made as being driven by some sort of un-definable single aim as per the "we know what is going on" comments above. It comes across as silly that no one can define it. Furthermore there is no clear position opposed to anything I say, but rather waves of rent-a-crowd folk who show no sign of following the discussion. It would be good to have ANY clear coherent position, in public. And 3.6 comments per day is not a lot, and what if it was?
• I think what people rejected is Dave souza's distortion of my SECOND draft, which was made in reaction to your post, which was the only reaction to my first draft, but was not an outright rejection. I do not believe anyone clearly rejected the first draft? If they did, my request is that we get the reasoning out into public and clear. What's wrong with that?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:39, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Andrew, what's wrong with your first or second draft is that it is not sufficiently biased. In order to qualify as the lede for this article, it must immediately conflate the philosophy of ID (which has existed with that name in the 19th century) with the current political mess and the Discovery Institute. And it must denigrate the idea at every place possible. It must not simply state what it is in the lede, but must inject a value statement regarding it as early as the fifth word of the article. If you make it sufficiently politically correct (in the minds of those who control the article) and biased, it will be indistinguishable from what exists now, so then why bother? 70.109.182.148 (talk) 15:48, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Andrew - Your second proposal seems the better one based on the ID concept having controversy and theory phrasing being more commonly seen as key factors. But I'm still thinking there is WP:OR going on for header here, which has been making issues with cite and article consistency and good WPism harder to get, so this may be as good as it gets. Meh, at least the issues seem fairly obvious to readers. Markbassett (talk) 01:53, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

|}

Delineating the subject matter of this article

Per WP:NOTFORUM. Please post any actionable proposals in a new section. See WP:TPG.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
--Charles (talk) 09:40, 5 June 2014 (UTC) I am not sure if this should be called an RfC because I am asking about the current/historic thinking behind this article, amongst the specific group of editors who have dominated it. I am not proposing any specific change. If others think this should be called an RfC please feel free to call it that. I will try to keep this short and simple. It is very fundamental and regards something which would normally be very clear and public in any Wikipedia article, but it is not clear here, at least to some people like myself who apparently thereby cause great annoyance to those in the know. But there seems to be a group of editors who persistently present themselves as a unified position about this, and seem to think it is clear. I just request clarity from them. The question:- My best guess about how sources are delineated as being relevant to this current article (as opposed to other subjects that might sometimes be called "intelligent design") is that any source talking about "intelligent design" in the context of the intelligent design movement (the one involved in arguing that a supposedly scientific theory of intelligent design should be taught in schools etc) is deemed to be about the subject of this article. Am I right or is there another criterium being used? Note: it is possible to answer this with a simple "yes". If there is a clear consensus, then I think that new clarity would be helpful in trying to reduce the amount of silliness on this talk page. If the answer is "no", then of course that requires a secondary explanation as per the last sentence.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:55, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Andrew, let me be completely blunt. Nobody cares. You make unintelligible rambling posts about who knows what, then get all bent out of shape because no one wants to dance to your tune. You have been given good advice, especially by MisterDub and Johnuniq, heed it. - Nick Thorne talk 12:46, 4 June 2014 (UTC) What tune Nick? What dance? May I not discuss the article on this talk page? If you find discussion confusing or frustrating just ignore it please. You've expressed your feelings enough now, surely? The talk page does have a purpose, and it is not me who set that purpose.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:03, 4 June 2014 (UTC) You know Andrew, you're right, this talk page does have a purpose and neither did you set that purpose, you just ignore it. Ad nauseum. - Nick Thorne talk 16:03, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Yes! Any reliable source talking about "intelligent design" in the context of the intelligent design movement is relevant to this article. Yopienso (talk) 17:32, 4 June 2014 (UTC) Andrew Lancaster - it appears that you are 1) saying there is a cabal on this Talk page stifling relevant-to-the-page open discussion in general or your threads/ideas specifically and 2) that you are trying to define what the Talk page is SUPPOSED TO BE about so that you can then have a "free-pass" to refer back to should you be accused of being off topic. Considering I don't think #1 is true, #2 then seems to be a non-issue or just a POV that you hold so I'm unsure what you are driving at... If you truly think your opinion/input is being squelched by editors on this page, then I would suggest you explore dispute resolution. However, from what little I've seen from the Talk threads that I've participated in, Nick Thorne's point about advice that you have been given is correct. Ckruschke (talk) 18:13, 4 June 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke An once again, another attempt by Andrew to lump ID and the ID movement article into a single thing. He just won't WP:DROPTHESTICK. Given his own statement above (ie: I am not proposing any specific change) I am almost decided to close this as per WP:NOTFORUM. If any other editor agrees, please do so. Regards. Gaba (talk) 19:50, 4 June 2014 (UTC) And also again, Gaba, you (and the other editors that control the page) are denying the point (so the horse ain't dead). ID ≠ DI. ID ≠ IDM. age(ID) >> age(IDM). age(ID) >> age(DI). They're just not the same thing. And insisting on equating the two or three concepts is dishonest. And Nick, ID is not identical to pseudoscience, and yes, some people here seriously contest that assertion and on the same basis that some of us might contest materialism, physicalism? Dualism is not pseudoscience either and this ID article is like saying in the first sentence of the dualism article that "Dualism is the pseudoscientific view that ...". They're philosophies. As is materialism. If you're a materialist, the scientific method is the only method the only epistemology that matters. But if you're not a materialist, then the assumptions of materialism do not always apply. If we are all materialists, then the bias that is obvious in the article would be obscured. But we're not all materialists, so the appearance of bias also violates the Second Pillar of Wikipedia. This article is biased in tone and in content. But the biased editors who insist on increasing the level of bias are not sufficiently open-minded about their own POV that they presumptuously (and erroneously) think their own POV is the NPOV. Why can't we just state what ID is, from it's original historic origin, and state what various people, organizations, professions, and courts say about it. It's fine to state, even in the lead paragraph, that the "scientific community" as represented by various specific scientists and organizations, state that ID is psuedoscience. That statement is both salient and true. Why do we have to dishonestly associate the ontology and philosophy of ID with the dishonest Discovery Institute or Intelligent design movement when ID existed (and had a meaningful definition) long before either DI or IDM existed. It's a dishonest and blatently biased article and makes little attempt with hiding that shame. 71.161.192.138 (talk) 04:32, 5 June 2014 (UTC) 75, perhaps you might try reading the text at the top of this talk page. In particular you should follow and the links to WP:PSCI and WP:UNDUE. BTW, I did not say ID is identical to pseudoscience, I said it IS pseudoscience, but that does not mean that all pseudoscience is ID. Pseudoscience includes many other forms of woo beside ID. - Nick Thorne talk 04:57, 5 June 2014 (UTC) I count one on-topic attempt reply to my original post. Thank you Yopienso, for making an effort to work in good faith. It seems clear however that Gaba P, Johnuniq, and Nick Thorne are indeed seeing it as their single mission on this page to make it impossible for me to participate. I am not really interested in them, but at the very least I do not accept their right to collapse and/or delete and/or distort my talk page posts, which to the best of my efforts are on topic (unlike their own posts). I shall continue to revert efforts to do that.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:05, 5 June 2014 (UTC) Andrew, this article is about the Intelligent Design view that the Intelligent Design movement has developed over the last 30 years. What really distinguishes it from design views in the past is that they really do believe they are doing science as they say in their writings. So, the opposition your are getting, is because this article really does a good job of summarizing their views and putting it into context. I hope that helps. I am One of Many (talk) 07:23, 5 June 2014 (UTC)