User talk:HughD

Politics

I have enjoyed your comments and editorial assistance on my Sandi Jackson and Toni Preckwinkle articles. If you like local politics you might want to review my Jesse Jackson, Jr. article. I have also been working on a darkhorse contender to replace Hillary Clinton in the senate named Byron Brown. I have also had difficulty getting Jack Kemp through the FAC procedure.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:31, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

49TH

I see that you edit [[Joe Moore}]]. as a sidebar someone just added Nicholas Senn High School to the "schools in" list for Rogers Park. Isn't Senn in Edgewater??? Didn't want to edit until I was sure.--Buster7 (talk) 02:56, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Exact neighborhood boundaries are somewhat controversial, but the City has an official community areas map, and the map even has a WP article Neighborhoods of Chicago. By that definition, yes, Senn is in Edgewater. I would concur with your proposed edit. Hugh (talk) 22:58, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Newsbank

Permalinks are at the bottom of newsbank articles. Copy the link from the bottom and not the address bar.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:57, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The correct "Ed Burke"?

At this page you can see the four "Ed Burke" that appeared at Olympic Games. At this page you can see that at Los Angeles 1984 Edward Burke (Athletics) was the flagbearer for USA. The number 1 and the numer 4 of the four "Ed Burke" that i linkjed were athletes, but the number 4 appeared at Athens 1896. Now the "right Ed Burke" is: Edward Andrew "Ed" Burke not the same. Thanks for your note, I'm going to fix it. ;-) --Kasper2006 (talk) 07:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

McCormick Tribune Plaza & Ice Rink FAC

Since you commented at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Park Grill, you may be interested in commenting at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/McCormick Tribune Plaza & Ice Rink/archive1, which has not received much commentary.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:49, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Park Grill GAC

As one of the primary editors of Park Grill, I was hoping that for the sake of the Millennium Park WP:FT, you would consider nominating it at WP:GAC.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the first attempt at the GAC. The Millennium Park topic has two and a half months to get the article up to GA standards, so I encourage you to address the concerns and resubmit it.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I think this is ready to resubmit. What do you think? Hugh (talk) 21:35, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Bean on the roof!

I was misled by the photo and map in the Bean article. Park Grill already passed AFD, but if I had realized earlier, I would have piped down as the sculpture on the roof strongly points to notability, even though the building appears to belong to the city and not the operator of the Grill. Sorry! --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 19:51, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Chicago Meetup and update

Last fall you indicated that you continue to be active with WP:CHICAGO. If you continue to be active please update your active date at Wikipedia:WikiProject Chicago/members. Also, we are planning a Chicago Meetup. If you will be able to attend the meetup from 10:30-11:45 a.m. on Saturday May 1, 2010 at the UIC Student Center West, please sign as an indication of your intent.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:30, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

You are one of the people I had hope to see at the meetup. Why haven't you signed up?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:56, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm very much looking forward to meeting you. I won't know my schedule until 5/1 is closer. Hugh (talk) 21:32, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Park Grill renomination

I am a bit confused on what is going on with the Park Grill WP:GAC candidacy, but encourage you to continue your efforts. It seems that there is a backlog elimination drive that will enable you to get fairly rapid reviews this month. I put a query in to the reviewer at User_talk:Jezhotwells#Park_Grill_GAC to help me understand what is going on?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:40, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I have gotten a response and understand what is going on. Keep up the good work, but keep WP:UNDUE in mind when deciding how much space to allocate to the scandal.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

"how much space to allocate to the scandal" Some would prefer none. The article conforms to WP:DUE: "How much weight is appropriate should reflect the weight that is given in current reliable sources." At this point further deletion of detail will cascade; for example, if we try to summarize as "investors included friends and neighbors of Daley" and leave it at that w/o detail, an editor will flag it as a NPOV violation or OR. The level of detail was dictated by NPOV and OR flagging. Hugh (talk) 21:42, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, good luck with a renomination.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:18, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

thanks, but what do you think, is it ready? Hugh (talk) 02:14, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Get some feedback at WP:PR.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 12:01, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I have opened up Wikipedia:Peer review/Park Grill/archive1. Watch there for suggestions.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:03, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

You have some comments to work on at the WP:PR.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:16, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

thanks, I forgot to watch it Hugh (talk) 02:25, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

How is it coming along?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

My advice would be to take the latest advice of the PR reviewer and then renominate the article at WP:GAC. Note that Millennium Park's WP:FT will be demoted on June 13 if this does not make GA in time for us to have this added to the topic. We need about 10-14 days to add it to the topic, so you need to get this through GA by the end of the month. Let me know when you nominate it at GAC so I can help get it a quick review.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:05, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I am getting quite stressed about this. If you have not come back to addresss the PR commentary by the time I finish expanding Juwan Howard, I will try to do so myself.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:54, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Park Grill GA

Thanks for getting this article started

This user helped promote Park Grill to good article status.

--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:36, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

well, you're welcome, but I didn't start it (or finish it) but I'm happy how it turned out and I learned a lot Hugh (talk) 07:08, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Gery Chico Wiki Page

Hi,

I'm not too familiar with Wikipedia but I work for Gery Chico and he wanted some correction made to his Wiki page because some of the information is not correct. I've noticed that you reverted the page back to it's original state when I make changes. Is there a reason why my changes are be removed and what can I do to ensure that the changes stay? Would it be possible for you to make the changes if I sen the document to you?

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejones0105 (talk • contribs) 18:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Happy holidays

Happy holidays, HughD!

Here's hoping your holiday season is a happy one. As one of the sources of troubles for you during the past year, I want to tell you that I have admired your tenacity and hard work on resolving concerns about the Chicago politician articles. You have my best wishes for the new year at Wikipedia -- and my sincere hopes for a few honest politicians in Cook County! Orlady (talk) 04:25, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

GA Thanks

This user helped promote Rahm Emanuel to good article status.

On behalf of WP:CHICAGO, I would like to thank you for your editorial contributions to Rahm Emanuel, which has recently become a GA. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:18, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Jesse Jackson, Jr.

Hey! You have been doing a great job of keeping the Chicago politician pages current. Someone tagged Jesse Jackson, Jr. with a citation needed tag. I don't know if you noticed, but I'll leave it to you to figure out whatever needs to be done to address this.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:27, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Rogers park

Don't be so quick to revert. I'll get you whatever Reference you need. Work with me. We both are interested in CHGO articles and the Chicago Project. ```Buster Seven Talk 21:43, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

GA nom for Richard Daley

Howdy again (I am the guy who signed up to review Richard Daley)- I wanted to let you know that there have been disputes about my GA reviews. A couple of the nominators have contested my reviews. (For reasons found here and on my talk page) I have been told by them to stop reviewing. However, I have also been complimented by my reviews at other times. I wanted to ask you if you were OK with me continuing my review of Daley, or if you rather I left it to someone else? (I apologize for any extra comments that my... reviewers might put below.) I'm sorry about this. Thanks. PrairieKid (talk) 01:38, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Thank you for being gracious. I will review the article sometime today. PrairieKid (talk) 15:05, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I finished my review. I thought the article was very close to meeting the criteria, but had some grammar issues, and an issue with the focus. I put it on hold for one week to get those figured out. You can find my review here. Thanks for your contributions! Let me know if you have any questions, or are ready for me to finish my review. PrairieKid (talk) 06:01, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

It passed! Thank you for all the work done to the article. I feel it now meets the GA criteria, ahead of schedule! Please continue to maintain the page to keep it at a GA level. Thank you! PrairieKid (talk) 19:09, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

The Chicago Barnstar

		The Chicago Barnstar
		For your continuing hard work on keeping Chicago politician biographies up to date and beefing them up so that they are fairly detailed as exemplified by your recent WP:GA for Richard M. Daley.TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:54, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

GA Thanks

This user helped promote Richard M. Daley to good article status.

On behalf of WP:CHICAGO, I would like to thank you for your editorial contributions to Richard M. Daley, which has recently become a GA.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:45, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Chicago article

Hey there! You are clearly passionate about this great city and have a talent for making good articles. I normally fight vandalism, but as part of WP:CITIES I've made it a goal to get Chicago to GA status. Was hoping maybe you could help me with the monuments section? As discussed on the talk page we want to narrow down this list and rewrite it using prose. I actually live in New York and most of these monuments don't have their own article, so it is difficult to say which ones are worth keeping in the main article. Are you familiar with these by any chance? Thanks! — MusikAnimal ^talk 01:21, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for reaching out. I'm embarrassed this article is not good. I would like to help. I've been busy. I will do what I can. I appreciate you articulating in a to-do list that referencing is a priority, and, looking over the article, I think that is still the case - whole sections w/o refs. I think the monuments section is reasonably complete in the sense that these are the most notable. I would eliminate the list, format it more like the public art paragraph in the arts section later, that is, a sentence each that names the subject and artist and some aspect of notability. Wl the monument to its article or failing that its subject. Maybe merge the monuments section with the public art section or vice versa. Add Michael Jordan's Winged Victory, US Grant, Taft's Fountain of Time in Washington Park. Hugh (talk) 02:37, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Helen Shiller

This article nominated by you is successfully promoted to GA status as it met the good article criteria. Keep up your good work :D Suri 100 (talk) 13:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Original Barnstar
		Keep your good work! Suri 100 (talk) 15:56, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! Hugh (talk) 16:06, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

GA Thanks

This user helped promote Helen Shiller to good article status.

On behalf of WP:CHICAGO, thanks for your editorial contributions to Helen Shiller, which has recently become a WP:GA.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:23, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Joseph Berrios

The article Joseph Berrios you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Joseph Berrios for comments about the article. Well done! Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Wizardman -- Wizardman (talk) 15:03, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Your review of Davis Theater

Thanks for your review of the Davis Theater and for promoting the article to GA! Please let me know if you'd like to me to review any articles that you've been working on. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 17:03, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

November 2013 GA Thanks

This user has contributed to Edward M. Burke good articles on Wikipedia.

On behalf of WP:CHICAGO, I thank you for your editorial contributions to Edward M. Burke, which recently was promoted to WP:GA.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:58, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

This user has contributed to Joseph Berrios good articles on Wikipedia.

On behalf of WP:CHICAGO, I thank you for your editorial contributions to Joseph Berrios, which recently was promoted to WP:GA.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:13, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Abby Washburn's bday

No, I don't. But I know it's unknown whether her birthday is November 10, 1977 or 79. I also know the she is Mr. Bela Fleck's wife and they got a kid. Country Girl 19:47, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

An ale for you!

You've been given a Rochefort. (And I can damned well assure you that very few people get one of my beloved Rocheforts.) Hey, Hugh, don't feel this way, discussion is always intense at primary policy articles and they don't get much more primary than V. Yours was a good idea, though I disagree with it, so don't take my objections as a personal dismissal: You're a valued editor and I appreciate you working to benefit the encyclopedia. Cheers, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:31, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the beverage, I can taste the caring. I overreacted, sorry. Thanks again for starting the talk. I'm somewhat disappointed at the lack of dialog beyond one other fellow editor. Is that also characteristic of discussion of proposed edits of primary policy articles? Hugh (talk) 20:19, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

It happens. It seems that it's always either just one or two and a quarter of a page or 10 and an encyclopedia in itself. Go figure. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:29, 7 March 2014 (UTC) PS: And if it might make you feel any better I made a Really Important Suggestion over at BLP a week or so ago that got even less discussion than yours. So it goes. — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:31, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

George Cardenas

Hi, HughD. I work for Alderman Cardenas and he has a couple of changes he'd like to make it on his Wikipedia page. Is it possible for his office to send you a doc with the article he'd like to have? It would include all the sources you'd need. Otherwise, how can we do it ourselves? Thanks. Alba.anguiano (talk) 19:14, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Harold Washington

Thanx for the catch.Naraht (talk) 17:31, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Civil Rights Movement page sources

Hi (I actually knew Harold Washington a little, good to see his name again). On the anti-capitalization effort going on at the movement pages I see you were persuaded by the selective list that Dicklyon gave. On his 16 examples (out of hundreds of sources) he forgot to mention that some of them come from a group called 'Civil Rights Movement Veterans', capitalized, and most of the examples he gave are from documents which don't mention the movement. This effort to confuse people with selective choices, choosing 16 out of hundreds, seems slanted (or, assuming good faith, triangle). Please do the research yourself, and you may find less reason to vote to change what has been a traditional name both on the web and on Wikipedia. Thanks. Randy Kryn 13:18 29 December, 2014 (UTC)

Beating our chests

Hugh, at present it is you and I working on this issue. If I haven't convinced you perhaps WP:3O can help. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 23:06, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Hugh, there are 3 editors opposed to the conflated $83mm figure. Please don't add the material again. Edit warring is not the way to get an acceptable article. Again, I ask you to consider a note at the bottom of the page. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 02:56, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

For your consideration, here is a paragraph, from ALEC, that needs improvement:

ALEC also has ties to the State Policy Network (SPN), a national association of conservative and libertarian think-tanks. SPN is a member of ALEC. ^[63] SPN members are encouraged to join ALEC.^[64] The SPN regularly sponsors annual meetings for ALEC, and a number of SPN's active affiliates are members of both organizations. Some of the think tanks in the SPN write model legislation, which then is introduced at ALEC's private meetings.^[65] The Guardian described ALEC as "SPN's sister organisation."^[66]"

My beef? This is a series of random bits of information lacking prose. (And is the Guardian commentary helpful?) Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 05:25, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

"Expand section" tags

Hugh, these tags are meaningless for us at present because the article has attention and on-going improvements. In the normal course of Wikipedia improvement such tags get indexed so that interested editors, e.g., WP:GNOMES, can find them in the WP:BACKLOG and work on them. Please, let's do the backlog Gnomes a favor and remove the tags. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 06:12, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

We need more editors. Hugh (talk) 06:20, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

This is a balance between article appearance and improvement vs. attracting more editors. As the tags have been in place for so long they are of little usefulness. (E.g., they have not attracted more editors.) Please accept my advice as one of those gnomes who occasionally works on the backlogs. – S. Rich (talk) 06:31, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Let's remove a section tag when we finish a section. Thanks. Hugh (talk) 17:11, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree these tags are of limited value when the article is in active development, but I have no problem with them. The sections get expanded and the tags get deleted. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:12, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Recommendation re signatures

Hugh, on the ALEC talk page you added your signature after the first paragraph and at the end of each numbered list item. While the time stamps (16:22, 18 February 2015 (UTC)) are all the same, the different signatures suggest that the numbers or items were added at different times. Also, at 20:18, 17 February 2015 (UTC) you signed two of the three numbered items and the last last paragraph. Without looking closely, these multiple signatures can be confusing to the reader. I recommend signing once, at the end. When you create a numbered or bulleted list, please just add the signature after the list. It will look like this:

1. One.
2. Two.

Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 17:00, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Please seek permission from me before editing my talk page contributions. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:03, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

You edited a fellow editor's talk and posted a formatting lesson on an experienced editor's talk page, after the editor warned you that he felt you were harassing him. Hugh (talk) 17:15, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm confused. I don't think I edited any of your comments on any talk page. If I did, it was certainly inadvertent. And who was that other editor? Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 17:45, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

sure you are Hugh (talk) 18:13, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Although you are clearly often being (probably unintentionally) disruptive, that particular technique seems appropriate for that comment, if you want comments to each entry of a numbered list. But, although you appear to have a number of edits, those edits do not indicate that you are "experienced" in following Wikipedia guidelines. (In other words, WP:TROUTS for all.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:40, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Michigan kid

If you're not happy with my block of this most recent (I think it's the most recent, although there could already be two or three others) incarnation of the "Michigan Kid", bring it up at WP:ANI. WP:SPI is inappropriate for discussing IP blocks where there is no parent. I'm going to hat the discussion on the IP's talk page, as being an inappropriate venue. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:09, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

I doubt you'll find support, from other than those who think that the IP's global warming edits outweigh the clearly inappropriate edits and the fact that he's blocked. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:16, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Hugh, I believe the only way to overcome WP:BE is to appeal the original block. And in a case like this Michigan Kid would also have to overcome the years of disruptive behavior since his block. Highly, highly unlikely. --DrFleischman (talk • contribs) 19:24, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

This link will help you understand how this began. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:26, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. What does it have to do with anything? Hugh (talk) 20:32, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

That's the same person whose recent block you're objecting to. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:42, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. May I ask, how do you know that? Is there a SPi or check user I could review? Where is the consensus that they are the same person? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 23:24, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Also, what is your understanding of policy and guideline with respect to section blanking on talk pages other than your own? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 20:35, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Blanking of inappropriate sections of talk pages is a "best practice", as is blanking of welcome messages to already-banned editors, and blanking of warnings to banned editors who are unlikely to return. But I probably should have moved the inappropriate discussion of the banned IP's block from his page to yours. If you want to complain about that at WP:ANI, go ahead. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:42, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I have reviewed WP:TPO and fail to find the justifications you cite. I am unfamiliar with these best practices of section blanking on others' talk pages. Can you please direct me to where I can learn more about best practices in section blanking others' talk pages? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 23:29, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

"If you want to complain about that at WP:ANI, go ahead." Are you saying there is no documentation on these best practices you mention? Are you saying you can do whatever and if I don't like it, I can go to ANI? If so I have not heard this attitude from an admin. I thought admins were supposed to be held to a higher standard, not lower. Above you said I had a lot to learn about how WP works, is this one of those lessons? Hugh (talk) 00:38, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Hugh, you're going to have to do your own research on much of this. I'm not inclined to do much heavy lifting to answer your questions, and I doubt that Arthur is either. I will say, however, that addressing block evasion is something that's done largely off the radar. To some extent it's a matter of efficiency, and to some extent it's done that way intentionally so as not to show all the cards to the block evaders. I will say that if you do a little digging you'll see that Arthur and his crew have had a lot of eyes on them the last few years and I'm not aware of any mistakes, nor of any challenge that has made any headway. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:10, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

"off the radar" And without consensus. Process matters. Hugh (talk) 00:38, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

All admin actions require consensus? You are mistaken. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 01:47, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

"Arthur and his crew" This editor was declared a sock and blocked by the unilateral action of one editor. Hugh (talk) 00:38, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Arthur isn't the only one policing the Michigan guy. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 01:48, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

ONE editor, in one edit, declared a user a sock and blocked. No concensus. Maybe I should be grateful for this peak behind th ecurtain at how WP really works. SPI is for the unwashed masses. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 01:58, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

"do your own research" Can you please direct me to policy and guidelines under which one editor can declare another editor a sock and block them? Thank you in advance for sharing from your vast experience with WP. Hugh (talk) 00:38, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

If you wish to change the way the community addresses block evasion then I suggest you start a discussion at WP:VPP. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 01:40, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Removal of cites from lead sections

HughD, I've seen you removing citations when revising various lead sections. Please look at WP:LEADCITE. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 08:02, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

The lede summarizes the body. There should be no information in the lede that is not already in the body in more detail, and the body is where the refs go. There should be no controversial statements in the lede, so they should not require refs. The lede should represent consensus. Refs in the lede is a frequent issue in GA reviews, because it represents lazy editing. Build your case in the body and summarize it in the lede. If you have a statement in a lede that you think needs a ref, it's a sign your body needs work. Hugh (talk) 08:18, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I certainly agree, While I have not checked as to the removal of particular citations in the lede, I hope you will consider whether removal of citations from the lede is is warranted. – S. Rich (talk) 08:32, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

A ref in the lede flags content that should be moved to the body, along with the ref, and replaced in the lede by a brief summary. Hugh (talk) 08:35, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the thanks

Hugh, I'm happy to note that you thank me for my edits. And I'm sure that you actually appreciate all (almost) of my edits. With this in mind there is no need to thank me so much. Your efforts to improve Wikipedia are noted and appreciated as well. – S. Rich (talk) 05:01, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The article is coming along. Thanks for fixing, like the spn link, instead of deleting. Hugh (talk) 05:06, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, and I encourage your efforts. But take a look at this edit. Where did you get "exclusively"? Is this your view on what DCT does? If this view is not not supported by RS, then you, as a Wikipedian, must leave it out. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 05:19, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

"X focuses on Y" is not obviously incorrect, it is too loose, it admits of a reading, X does Y, mostly, but maybe some not Y. That is not the case here. Their own website is very forthright: when you invest with us, yo uare investing in Y. Exclusively. Forever. Guaranteed. Hugh (talk) The simplest is DCF is a conservative donars advised fund. Hugh (talk) 05:27, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Hugh is half wrong and half right. Of the policy-focused donations the group gives, they say on their website that they promise to only give to "liberty-minded" groups. However, not all of the group's donations are to policy groups. They report that 70-75% are, and the remainder are to traditional charities. [1] Therefore it's inaccurate to say the group gives exclusively to conservative/libertarian (or even generic policy) causes. According to the group, 25-30% of their gifts are in the non-policy realm, so they couldn't possibly be to conservative or libertarian groups. Safehaven86 (talk) 21:54, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

February 2015

Please do not add original research or novel syntheses of published material to articles as you apparently did to Donors Capital Fund. Please cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. With this edit [2] you are injecting your own personal view that DCF and DT are similar ("Like Donors Trust..."). Jeez! – S. Rich (talk) 06:09, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Hugh, I request that you read a couple of essays if you haven't already, those on citation overkill and bombardment. Comments such as this one (" add additional notable, neutral, verifiable reliable source for notability") suggest that you're adding sources not for verifiability, but for notability, which leads to a cluttered and weaker article (as explained in those essays). If someone is claiming that something should be excluded on notability/noteworthiness/balance grounds and you have sources you believe rebut those arguments, then please present the redundant sources at article talk rather than adding them to the article itself. Thanks. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:32, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind suggestion to veteran fellow editor to read some essays. Classy! I would ask you for your patience with what may appear at first as overciting. As you are well aware, my contributions in this little backwater of WP are much more likely to be flagged as note noteworthy by the regulars. You are leading the charge on overcite. You also know me to be more than willing to trim refs once we get passed the noteworthiness, reliable source issues. So take a breath. Hugh (talk) 16:35, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

"the analysis itself is not noteworthy without further description of findings or significance" as an edit summary, let me ask you: Before or during your deletion of another editor's contribution, including several important new reliable sources, did it cross your mind, however briefly, that this might be an edit in progress, especially, knowing as you do, that the contributor is an experienced editor, with a record of good articles, and this contribution was only a few hours old? Hugh (talk) 17:22, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Please cut the snark. With retorts like this you obviously have little interest in working collaboratively with your fellow editors, you clearly miss the concept of citation overkill, and you seem to have a listening problem as well. I will stop making friendly suggestions. I will be looking for sources you add for noteworthiness purposes and will delete them on sight. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:31, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

You did not answer my question. I asked you a question. it was not a rhetorical question. I would appreciate an answer. Even if it is "no." Surely you will agree that talk page dialog is an important part of collaboration, and editors may ask each other questions on talk pages. A fellow editor s trying to understand you better. Answer his question. Hugh (talk) 17:43, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not answering those types of questions anymore, sorry. You have filled your weekly quota for dumb, disruptive questions. Try again next week. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:50, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Why the name calling? It is a sincere question. Why can't you accept it as such? We have not collaborated extensively before. I would like to understand you better. I believe that understanding your thoughts as you performed this particular deletion might offer an avenue to mutual understanding. If you do not reply, all I really have to go on is your comment "you clearly miss the concept of citation overkill" above, from which I can only conclude, yes, you knew the contributor, you knew the contribution was not controversial, you knew the contribution included several important new reliable source references, well-formatted, you knew another editor might not agree with the deletion, but you deleted anyway, because you had your interpretation of WP:OVERCITE on your side. This realization makes me sad. Please reply and clarify your thinking on this. I really believe it may help going forward in establishing a basis for collaboration. Hugh (talk) 18:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I'll indulge you. "[D]id it cross your mind, however briefly, that this might be an edit in progress, especially, knowing as you do, that the contributor is an experienced editor, with a record of good articles, and this contribution was only a few hours old?" The answer is no. Where do I start on my explanation...

• I do not care if the edit is an "edit in progress" or was "only a few hours old." All edits are "edits in progress," whatever that means, and I've never refrained from reverting or commenting in the hope that the contributor might correct his or her own edit. If I wait too long to deal with the edit then it falls off my watchlist. So I find it better to respond to edits immediately.
• The edit was controversial, in the sense that it larded up the article with unnecessary sources, created citation clutter, and created the appearance of a battleground. (I've noticed a pattern, you call certain edits "not controversial" and then they get reverted, and then you fight over them. The fact that they were reverted and fought over is ex post facto evidence that they were in fact controversial. It would be more productive to drop the unhelpful and provocative "controversialness" of your edits from your edit summaries.)
• I do not bicker over the experience level of my fellow editors. I do not care about the experience level of my fellow editors, except the extent that (i) I try not to bite the newbies, and (ii) I have slightly less patience for stupid comments made by very experienced editors.

Someone of your experience level should have been able to anticipate all of these responses, which is demonstrative of why your fellow contributors have lost patience with you. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:21, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I think you know I meant, and I think you would agree, the content you deleted was not controversial, and I think you know what I intended by edit in progress. I agree you were within the rules in your delete. That's not what I'm asking about here. If I understand your reply correctly, I am saddened to learn that you had no thought of the contributing fellow editor, newbie or no, as you deleted a non-controversial contribution including several new important well-formatted reliable source references. So be it. Thanks for your answer. I understand you take a more lawyerly approach to your collaborations. I'm sorry you are not happy with my edit summaries. I wounder if you might consider that more detailed edit summaries might be an artifact of editing in an area of WP where many editors (not you) are quick to jump on the del key with not rs or not noteworthy or fails V etc. Thanks again for your dialog. I think it helps to keep talking instead of shutting down. Hugh (talk) 18:37, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Another snarky comment. Good day to you. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:39, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way. I meant no offense. I was trying to reply and to echo my understanding of your reply. I am trying to express myself as accurately as I can. Hugh (talk) 19:47, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Good day to you, too! Thank you for your continuing dialog toward identifying areas of mutual understanding which may form the basis of future collaboration. Thank you for your suggestion of reading essays. I have been reviewing WP:ROWN. Are you familiar with it? It talks about our bias toward change, and maximizing participation. It mentions that reverts should not be used to teach an editor a lesson, but I note that in this case you reverted and then jumped on my talk page to suggest I read some essays. It mentions that reverts should not be used to remove content where part of the content improves the encyclopedia, and I note that in this case your deletion included several well-formatted new important reliable source references. I believe we are expected to be particularly careful with deletions that include references. It talks about not deleting content because you don't have time to fix it. May I ask, did you consder fixing it before you deleted a fellow editor's contribution of non-controversial content including several well-formatted new important reliable source references? It suggest discussing a deletion on a talk page first. Did you consider doing that? Your thoughts? Thank you in advance for your reply. Hugh (talk) 20:05, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you again for your suggestion of reading essays. It is a good thing from time to time to refresh our understanding of our expectations of our fellow editors. Why don't we read something together? Why don't we read WP:ROWN together and discuss it together here? Looking forward to hearing from you! Hugh (talk) 23:26, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

3RR warning

I shouldn't need to say this, but you seem unable to comprehend your obvious violations of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, so

Your recent editing history at Center for Media and Democracy shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you get reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 06:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I only reverted twice in the past 15 hours; you reverted three times. Still, I'm not going to revert your obvious errors, in the hope that S.Rich will. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:01, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Hope all is well. See the talk, I left you some notes on the NYT refs. Hugh (talk) 07:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The text is there; I don't know why I didn't see it before. It's still only one reference, no matter how many times the same words appear in NYT articles. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

What are you doing at Brulle?

It is appropriate to discuss massive changes. What are you doing? Many of your edits are adding non-notable puffery from the subjects CV, a Self Published Source. Capitalismojo (talk) 17:03, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm editing it. I'm improving it. Thank you for your message. Yes, some of the content is from a cv but it is also non-controversial, and as you are well aware self-published sources may be used as sources on themselves. Hugh (talk) 17:08, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Not self-aggrandizing info. From SPS: "Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so." The real question was why you are adding enormous material without discussing it at talk? You reverted improper sourced info and changes back in w/o discussion. Capitalismojo (talk) 18:03, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your note. Sometimes I add content when I edit. Can you please be more specific about improperly sourced info? Hugh (talk) 18:08, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

The section that begins; "Brulle is a member of ..." and ends with the cv ref is improperly sourced. I have discussed this at talk, where I encourage we move this discussion. Capitalismojo (talk) 18:20, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

309th MEB

Thanks for the suggestion. I have never taken an article to GA. While I didn't create the article, I have worked on it a lot. Have you taken an article to GA? Any suggestions? Capitalismojo (talk) 20:52, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Sure! Happy to help. Some tips. Learn the GA criteria and read the article critically and copy edit. Read some GA reviews on military unit articles, reserve unit articles if you can find one, and see what reviewers ding for. There is no rule but I think most editors would say the best order is to nominate a few articles to GA before you review GA articles. The GA queues are long and topical so you should expect your reviewer would be familiar with similar topics. If you nominate now almost certainly you will have time to polish unless somebody for some reason picks your topic out of the queue. When you nominate you are committing to putting in some time on the article during a revision period, usually about a week. You can team up on the revisions, but not with the reviewer. You could ask for a peer review 1st or go for GA. Hugh (talk) 21:07, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Capitalismojo (talk) 22:12, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Any time

Glad I could help. To be honest, I am still a novice, as you can probably tell from my user page. I see you've been editing on WP for quite some time. I primarily work on Gun show loophole and will probably continue to do so until it gets GA status. LB and I are sort of co-founders on that one. Kind of a tough subject for a rookie, but "gun politics" is what got me started here in the first place. It can be a lot of drama too, sometimes (Have you seen how long the GSL talk page is?). Anyway, I think we are close to our (GA) goal over there and I'm kind of prospecting some new articles to work on, and it's nice to meet other editors with the same interests. I don't know how much experience you have working on these types of articles, but I can see that you've already stepped into some 3RR issues. Debating over sources is sometimes best left to RSN when you are "outnumbered" on a particular topic. I can tell you from my limited experience that it's much easier if you have someone knowledgeable, that you trust, by your side, to help you avoid the BAIT and keep things CIVIL. So, I'm here if you need to talk or vent, just remember that even though there's no such thing as privacy around here, honesty certainly helps us to deal with stress and avoid hitting the save button a little too soon. Cheers! Darknipples (talk) 21:08, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the note and adult beverage. I'm excited to hear of your GA plan. That is ambitious. It is a hard topic. Respect. Hugh (talk) 21:13, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

Stay sharp Darknipples (talk) 21:11, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Climate and sock puppetry

Hugh, as you may know, under the 2013 revisions to DS the alert template I posted in the prior thread is a "no fault" FYI type of template. Hopefully, at this user talk page thread you can acknowledge that many people identify the IP as a case of WP:Long term abuse and that many people would like to find a solution. If you think a better solution needs to be found, please express the sentiments without running others down. If you'd accept a suggestion, please leave the sarcasm at home when making your points. Sarcasm is a poor substitute for analysis and reason at best, and at worst looks like personal attacks. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 09:34, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

By the way, we agree that the climate pages need help. Among the climate pages, the most-viewed article is Global warming. We revised the first paragraph of the lead last year, after 200000 bytes of discussion and multiple drafts (see archives, search for "NAEG ver" in archive 69-71 or so.) It was exhausting, but we need some new energy to keep on revising the outdated/bloated lead. Is that a place where you'd like to contribute to the climate pages? If so it would be welcome. From long experience there, the best approach is to post drafts to the talk page. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:00, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. If this is all on the up & up, then even if there is no discussion on this particular block of this IP, there is a consensus documented as a discussion somewhere on the mandate for this "plan" I can review. I would like start by reviewing the basis for the "shoot on sight" aspect so I can disabuse myself of the notion that it is "fire, aim, ready." Can you help me with that? What is the basis in policy and guideline for the one man SPI/block? Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 16:38, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I think you should ask the two admins other than Arthur whom I already linked in your thread at Arthur's page. Again they are Vsmith (talk · contribs) and JamesBWatson (talk · contribs). NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:09, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I recognize those names, the IP also mentioned them. May I respectfully ask again, can you point me toward the basis of the "shoot on sight" approach in policy guideline or essay? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 18:19, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the link to LTA, I had not come across that before. Can you help me find the case on this IP? Thanks. Hugh (talk) 17:09, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

There is no LTA case for this IP. There was some multi-editor discussion awhile back, but we decided that WP:Revert, block, ignore was better than giving additional recognition to the abuser via LTA notoriety. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:09, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

No LTA. Huh. I see. A transparent process would have aided the Monster. Anna wrote to the monster, "Wikipedia is transparent." Do you agree? When you linked to LTA, where you hoping I would not look for this IP? Hugh (talk) 18:19, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Summary so far: No SPI. No checkuser. No LTA. No previous block of this IP. 13 edits in 1 hour, no vandalism. Yet a unilateral 1 year block of an IP and block of registrations. Hugh (talk) 18:30, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

So file a complaint about admin abuse, but you'd better look out for boomerangs if you single AR out and ignore the others. I noticed you left out the part about Anna first trying to talk to the IP but ultimately in her concluding remarks saying "If all of this is to justify your strategy, don't bother. I cannot condone it. If you saying the path of getting unblocked is not something you will pursue, then we don't need to continue this." NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:37, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Educate me. Please point me to the basis for unilateral fast-track SPI/block. Thanks. So far I am finding in essay WP:DBQ "If you are sure about a certain editor to be a sock of an indefinitely blocked editor, before shooting the gun (.i.e. tagging editor's user pages with sock tags and reverting all of the editor's edits), file a case at Sockpuppet Investigation board with the proof" and "Stalking SPAs that have not made any poor edits" is a known symptom of Sockophobia. So please educate me. Thanks in advance. Hugh (talk) 18:45, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm just a lowly ed, not one of the blocking admins in question. Since you haven't yet asked the non-ArthurRubin admins about the authority being relied upon, even though I've suggested you seek that education from them, your demand for education starts sounding less like a good faith inquiry and more like something I don't really want to participate in. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:18, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I may reach out, but my immediate concern is with this particular block of this particular 1-hour old, 13 edit, non-controversial IP. Sorry, I thought you were chiming in presenting yourself as someone who is ahead of me on this issue and I mistakenly thought you were jumping in to help get me up to speed. Thanks again for your time. Hugh (talk) 19:28, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Well I was. (A) as to history and where you can read more; (B) adding that many have informally (i.e., without SPI proceedings) identified behavioral pattern for this IP; (C) that socking to evade a block restarts the clock; (D) that there has been a nonstop block since at least 2011 for at least one of the addresses; (E) that socking to evade blocks a "serious breach of community trust".

The only part I know I don't know is what authority the admins have to do the blocking once they are informally convinced the behavioral pattern is the same. It could be a case of implicit application of WP:Ignore all rules, but as I have said, you'd have to ask and the other two admins should know since they have done the exact same thing for the same behavioral pattern coming from other addresses. Contact 'em or not. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:53, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

You've been very helpful. Thanks again for your time. Hugh (talk) 23:01, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Michigan IP

Hugh, go ahead and try to communicate. I, too, tried that several years ago. It didn't work for me, maybe you'll have better luck. (I don't have any admin abilities to stop blocks, though.) Good luck! Capitalismojo (talk) 15:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

If you notice him please msg me, thanks. Hugh (talk) 15:44, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Sure! Capitalismojo (talk) 13:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I will too, though until convinced with a reason otherwise, I'm still going to encourage insta-blocking re article edits. Can we block from article talk but still allow user talk? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:21, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your replies and thanks for your support. Please do whatever you are comfortable doing. Ideally I would like to contact him while he is editing because I want to ask him what he is doing. If he is blocked I expect he may shift the conversation to the block. Oh, and probably nothing we do will help. Hugh (talk) 14:21, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

He's been editing since at least 2010; such an editor has to be able (or willing) to discuss "What are you doing?" despite a block. If they can't (or won't) then WP-CIR applies, and I see no reason for patience or optimism, but those things are yours to spend, so I'll ping you if I seem them in real time and I remember. BUT your concern that WP-CIR appliesi in this way is not a reason to impact many editors' watchlists by not blocking on sight. What do admins Vsmith (talk · contribs), JamesBWatson (talk · contribs), and Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs) think? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:01, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Here's a scant reason for optimism: most probably I will discover WP:CIR applies as many more verse than me editors have concluded and then maybe I will join your squad and help with the reverts. So there. Hugh (talk) 15:33, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I see that you are trying, good luck. However, he used at least four different ips last night for his rapid fire, mostly trivial edits. Keep on truckin' :) Vsmith (talk) 14:30, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

108.73.115.149 (talk · contribs) have at it NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 07:35, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Chicago

Hugh, you seem pretty up on Illinois politics and such, what's going to happen in the Chicago Mayor's race? Rahm going to be reelected? Capitalismojo (talk) 13:02, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

And thanks for the great work on the Capital Fax article! Capitalismojo (talk) 13:12, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Something needing doing

Hey Hugh, At Global warming last year there was widespread agreement the entire article needs to be updated for IPCC AR5 (2014), and the lead especially needs an overhaul. Whether I did a good job or bad job, I at least sheparded the discussion through a review/tweaking of the hatnote and lead paragraph 1 (as minorly tweaked since Dec). If IP rehabilitation doesn't work out, would you be interested in channeling your energy toward updating that article ? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:01, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm. Ambitious. I scanned some of the archives over by there, the expenditure of elbow grease was formidable. IP rehab is wholly unsatisfying. You should know I am a body 1st kind of guy. The lede is the last step before GA. I would pitch in, particularly if the goal were GA rather than lede re-write. Global warming GA would be an astonishing achievement, it might very well be impossible, but, hey, just another windmill. Thanks for asking. Hugh (talk) 17:16, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

It's already a featured article, but there have been a great deal of changes since then. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:27, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Wow. I did not know that. Most impressive. Based on my humble experience the last few months in this corner of WP I would have said FA was impossible. Hugh (talk) 17:31, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

I may be 'way off base in my thinking, and even more for expressing my thinking, but here goes.... might you have formed your impression of the regulars in the broad topic of climate change based on observations of how the IP was/is treated? If so, the data set used for your first impression was very small and rather skewed. There are many regular editors who insist on good sources and coverage of the mainstream view of global warming|. At other articles, such as climate change denial and List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming, many of the same editors insist on good sourcing and NPOV presentation of those views also. At all climate articles, other guidelines making frequent appearance are WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE, WP:SOAP, and WP:FORUM. It isn't a good area for editors who get mad, but those who can remain professional (e.g., presenting cogent logical reasoning based on good RSs without emotion) can make a valuable contribution. The better you are at it, the more grief potentially effective newcomers can expect to get. After all, if a new climate ed starts getting into WP:BATTLE mentality, they can be driven off, one way or another. If you decide to give it a whirl, let WP:ARBCC#Principles and WP:Dispute resolution be your road map and you'll do fine. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:35, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, when I 1st noticed the IP I thought it was a bold editor daring to edit in an ownership zone and getting smacked down. This was based on looking at only 2 edits, which were crude but just so happened to have an inkling of an idea for a decent edit. Since then thanks to patient editors incl. yourself of course I see the bigger picture that most of the edits have no redeeming value and many can only be considered vandalism. I can get mad. I am relatively unfamiliar with DR, preferring topics that avoid conflict. For example, at 1st I thought Richard M. Daley was too "hot" for serious editing but my fellow editors gave me room to take it to GA. Life was simpler then. Your proposal will involve daily drama. G*d help me I have watched Global warming. I will not take point but I've signed up. Hugh (talk) 18:55, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject Hillary Rodham Clinton

Template:WikiProject Hillary Rodham Clinton invitation Thanks for your consideration, and please note that joining this project is in no way an endorsement of HRC or her political positions. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:01, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Paddy Bauler

I'm writing this article Mathias 'Paddy' Bauler about a crooked Chicago alderman - want to help? There's been a lot written about him Victor Grigas (talk) 02:52, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

@Victorgrigas: That's a fun article to write! Yes, much has been written about Bauler, so much that it will mean hitting the books. How's your Chicago bookshelf, homie? Len O'Connor's "Clout" has some good coverage. David Fremon has a couple of pages on Bauler in the indispensable "Chicago Politics Ward by Ward." Royko's "Boss" has just a paragraph but it's an amusing anecdote. Dick Simpson has a new book on corruption in Chicago, it might have some Bauler. I tend to focus on the live crooks. I will help, though I won't take lead. Thanks for the note. Hugh (talk) 05:03, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

@HughD: Good leads - thanks! I'll peck at this thing as time goes on. I used to live on North and Sedgwick and when I found out that this guy used to own a bar there and used to be alderman I was like 'I think his spirit visited the parties I used to throw' or something.

PC reviewer

Hello. Your account has been granted the "pending changes reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on pages protected by pending changes. The list of articles awaiting review is located at Special:PendingChanges, while the list of articles that have pending changes protection turned on is located at Special:StablePages.

Being granted reviewer rights neither grants you status nor changes how you can edit articles. If you do not want this user right, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time.

See also:

• Wikipedia:Reviewing, the guideline on reviewing
• Wikipedia:Pending changes, the summary of the use of pending changes
• Wikipedia:Protection policy#Pending changes protection, the policy determining which pages can be given pending changes protection by administrators. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:58, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Just a friendly tip

I am vowing to follow the guideline at Wikipedia:Edit_warring#How experienced editors avoid becoming involved in edit wars. I hope I succeed. Sincerely, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 16:19, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Recent Edits

Look, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just saying that it's disconcerting to see someone adding approximately 91 references to the Kochs in the last two months to a variety of pages. I'm all for adding funding sources to these pages, but I think there needs to be some kind of policy to enforce NPOV.

Perhaps we could propose something like 'top three donors' or 'top donor'. Arbitrarily selecting one donor and adding him 91 times sounds to me like political bias. I'm sure if there were a conservative editor in this discussion, he would say something about George Soros.

This might be a discussion that needs to be had elsewhere with admins involved. DaltonCastle (talk) 05:13, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) @DaltonCastle: Assuming this question is about political campaign donations, I am not convinced it is bias. Aren't conservative candidates proud to bag donations from the Kochs? However I agree that the right way to counter any bias is to write for the enemy and find the top 3 donors or top 50% donations for each (realistic) campaign in a district/state. Or, perhaps someone can create a wikidata project for contributions. Why do you suggest admin involvement (admins don't resolve content disputes)? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:24, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

@HughD

I think you may have missed the point of what I was trying to say: I am not interested in going through and adding political conspiracy theories about George Soros across Wikipedia. It's not the kind of thing that gets me going, and in my opinion, it would be against the spirit of Wikipedia.

My point is that there should be some consistency across these pages that makes it more difficult for pages to violate NPOV. The fact is, most Wikipedia editors are liberal and male, so making the argument that 'I should be able to add bias to pages because the right-wing editors should be able to do the same thing' doesn't fly.

Is this a policy that has been considered before? If not, I would propose a loose top-three donor rule. It's a completely unbiased way to include donors onto a page without allowing biased editors to cherrypick politically convenient donors. DaltonCastle (talk) 17:13, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

@Hrodulf

Thanks for the response! :) This discussion is mostly about donations to non-profits, many of which have thousands of donors. My concern is that someone might (or rather, has been) cherrypicking politically convenient donors who may be relatively small donors. I'm interested in coming up with a loosely-defined policy that makes bias more difficult to insert into political pages.

I have not for quite some time (until about 3 days ago) edited pages related to U.S. politics. It's not something I have kept interest in. But I am interested in preserving the integrity and neutrality of Wikipedia, so when I see systematic inclusion of bias into only one particular type of page, it concerns me.

It seems to me that a fair, politically-unbiased solution would be to have the top-three donors on each page, rather than giving a potentially politically-motivated editor full discretion to cherrypick whichever donors he wants. And I can't speak as to whether conservatives are proud to bag a donation from the Kochs. I don't know enough about the subject.

True, I think a noticeboard would be more appropriate. DaltonCastle (talk) 17:25, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

"missed the point" I understood your message very well, thank you. I chose not to respond to your "top 3" idea because it is a non-starter. But since you press, may I respectfully remark that your comments here, and your recent edits, sweeping through dozens of articles deleting content in a quest for your conception of balance, suggests to me that you may not have a thorough understanding of the current policies and guidelines with respect to the content of articles. I support Wikipedia's policies and guidelines with respect to article content. Wikipedia's policies and guidelines ask us to include content in proportion to coverage in reliable sources. You should make sure you understand this before pursuing changes. Thank you again for your feedback on my contributions to Wikipedia. Please seek support for your proposal elsewhere. Hugh (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

"the spirit of Wikipedia" I disagree. I think it is precisely the spirit if you were to spend more time researching, reading sources, and adding content and well-formatted reliable sources to article space instead of subtracting. I would support and aide any effort of any ideology to improve WP coverage of funding of political advocacy groups. Hugh (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

"I would support and aide any effort of any ideology to improve WP coverage of funding of political advocacy groups." Curious, because your actions seem to be contrary to your statement of "aiding any effort of any ideology". DaltonCastle (talk) 18:54, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Noteworthiness

Hi Hugh. Re this edit, you've reverted me and others before to restore unnecessary sources "for noteworthiness." As a general matter it's not typical to add sources to establish that a fact is noteworthy. If there's a dispute about the relative importance of the content it can be discussed on the article talk page without cluttering up the article itself. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:50, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your note. Two refs for content are not excessive. Please cite your source for the "general matter" you mention. Of course part of the role of refs is to establish noteworthiness "weight" if you prefer as well as verifiability. Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 05:55, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not citing anything, sorry. Just sharing an observation. I got rid of the second sources in this case not because they were excessive, but because they added nothing useful to the reader. You may disagree with me, fine, I don't want to get into the usual pissing match over it. I'm just pointing out that your noteworthiness justification is unusual. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:58, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

What looks to you like perfectly noteworthy and verifiable content at 1 ref looks undue to the next guy and content and ref both get deleted. Refs are for readers and editors. May I return the favor by pointing out that your pre-occupation with one and only one ref is, unusual. Hugh (talk) 06:06, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't insist on one and only one source. I generally leave 2-3 sources if they are all of high quality and independent of each other. This is a very common practice, supported by WP:CITEKILL (a very frequently cited essay). In this case, I got rid of the redundant sources that were merely reporting on what the Tobacco Control article said. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:19, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Right. Then the next guy comes along, who cares about some dumb old report, where's the noteworthiness? and the content is gone. Hugh (talk) 06:54, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

On a separate note, why are you reverting me to re-add a FreedomWorks press release? I understand your policy-based argument, but why would you want that? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:23, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

why would I want what? Hugh (talk) 06:30, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Why would you want the article citing a FreedomWorks press release (with a dead link) when it could be citing some mainstream news source? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:31, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

You ask as if you deleted a press release ref and replaced it with a mainstream news source. You didn't. You replaced it with a cn. Are you asking me about a hypothetical mainstream news source? Oh, look! Our good colleague Arthur just came 40 minutes behind you and deleted some content where you removed a source and replaced it with cn. Hugh (talk) 06:51, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Why not add a better source instead of reverting me? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 07:19, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Go for it. Add your mainstream news source and no one will miss the press release. Hugh (talk) 07:25, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

That wasn't my question, but oh well. Another lost opportunity to build goodwill. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:20, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Stella horreum

	Editor laudabilis
	Thanks for keeping us all posted with your explanatory Edit notes on the Americans for Prosperity project! BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 20:11, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

AFP

Hello, I'm just wondering why my edits on Americans for Prosperity are continuing to be reverted by you. I'm solely working on improving the article's neutrality by reducing bias. I understand that, from your perspective, "Koch funding is the aspect of the subject of this article," but I believe that you are giving WP:UNDUE weight to this subject. It's completely possible to give equal weight to both sides of the subject, and according to Wikipedia policy that is how each article and their subjects should be represented. Hope we can work this out... Cheers! Comatmebro ^{~Come at me~} 20:34, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your collaboration. Thank you for your recent edits. Please pardon me if I decline to discuss "your" edits on a particular article on my talk page. As I said there, please post your concerns of undue weight there, with specific reference to content, references, policy and guideline. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 22:32, 28 May 2015 (UTC) Here will add that I am sincerely grateful for your collaborations, and note in agreement that the article is getting better. See you on article talk. Hugh (talk) 22:46, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

add additional noteworthy reliable source reference for noteworthiness

Hugh, Just a quick note. You can just say "add ref" in edit summaries. We all assume that any ref added by you (or other veteran editors) will be noteworthy and reliable by definition. If people disagree that it is "noteworthy and reliable" the edit summary won't disuade them from disagreeing and even when it is obviously RS the summary comes off as a little ...I don't know... "Noteworthy ref for noteworthiness" seems a bit redundant. Anyway, I wanted to share my thoughts. Have a great weekend.Capitalismojo (talk) 22:35, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. Our colleague the good doctor has also remarked on the tendency toward shall we say eloquence in my edit summaries. I know you and I have a level of trust, but alas the assumption of good faith is not universal, particularly in certain arenas. Especially with page and section hats targeting content, I don't mind investing a few seconds to communicate to my colleagues that I have thought about this edit and I believe it is due weight. I don't beleive I am violating any policy or guideline or best practice by providing detailed edit summaries. Since you reached out I would like to ask for your support in losing the tags, a guild copy edit, and good article nomination. I think the article is more than ready, a vast improvement over a few months ago when we both noticed it made no reference to the TPM. I am disappointed with collaborators who are quick to tag but do not follow up with discussion on specifics. May I also mention, with respect to the "misappropriated" documents, I really think a straight-forward, chronological unfolding is the most neutral. Rather than shuffle content to position our fav content first, I think the subsection is long enough to warrant its own, couple-few sentence lede. What do you think? Take care. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 23:25, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't see your reply...Yes, probably a good idea; a brief lede and then chrono section. Capitalismojo (talk) 23:36, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions notice regarding American politics

This message contains important information about an administrative situation on Wikipedia. It does not imply any misconduct regarding your own contributions to date.

Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

Again, this notice does not imply misconduct. I am leaving this notice on the talk page of all editors who have recently participated in any ANEW report about Americans for Prosperity, because that page is now subject to a 1RR restriction. —Darkwind (talk) 18:20, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Reminder about personal attacks

Please do not attack other editors. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Calling my edits "cowardly" and referring to me as "Mr. Courageous Wrapped in the Flag of Consensus Hero" are interpreted as uncivil personal attacks. It appears to me that you're attacking what you perceive to be my military/veteran status. Not cool. Champaign Supernova (talk) 16:15, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Champaign Supernova Thank you for your service. I know nothing of your service, but I do care and I am sincerely grateful. What I am referring to is, I think it is clear from your comments that you perceive yourself as a champion of consensus, but when you defend undiscussed section blanking, it seems to indicate to me a preference for contributing with your delete key rather than doing the heavy lifting of collaboration. How many times did I ask you to please cite a specific item of content of concern? Show your commitment to consensus, join me in asking our collaborators, section blanking is a major edit, where is the discussion? Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 16:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Not only personal attacks, but simply personal remarks, like "You've tried undue, disparaging, misleading, off-topic." Not cool. As I have mentioned elsewhere, it is best to avoid using the second-person singular or plural, "you," or "your" or "yours." My opinion, anyway. It might help. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 01:19, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Talk Page etiquette

Hugh please, please don't insert material at a later time between two previous comments. I find that it is generally disruptive and can throw off the meaning of the thread. If you find it neccesary to insert later material between two edits (and it can be necessary occasionally), it is best to indicate that you have inserted it by starting the addition with (insert) or (inserted). Also if someone has replied to a comment, it is better to continue below the additional material and not insert material above the latest edit. This also can throw off the discussion a great deal. This may seem like just a little small thing but it would be a help. Thanks for your consideration. Capitalismojo (talk) 16:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Frankly, I was not confused at all, and I agree that the response could be inserted immediately after the item commented on. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 06:01, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

1RR

Because you are now a moving target, I suggest limiting yourself to WP:1RR per article (or ideally, per day). That way, you can avoid allegations of edit warring. Viriditas (talk) 09:23, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Bernard Stone

The article Bernard Stone you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Bernard Stone for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Zwerg Nase -- Zwerg Nase (talk) 21:01, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your work on Bernard Stone. Maybe we have something in commons? 108.195.136.98 (talk) 04:53, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

In Commons. 97.86.80.98 (talk) 21:05, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

All the same blocked editor....

WP:CANVASS

WP:CANVAS Spamming and excessive cross-posting.: Indiscriminately sending announcements to editors can be disruptive for any number of reasons. If the editors are uninvolved, the message has the function of "spam" and is disruptive to that user's experience. More importantly, recruiting too many editors to a WP:dispute resolution can often make resolving the dispute impossible. Remember the purpose of a notification is to improve the dispute resolution process, not to disrupt it.

Campaigning: Campaigning is an attempt to sway the person reading the message, conveyed through the use of tone, wording, or intent. While this may be appropriate as part of a specific individual discussion, it is inappropriate to canvass with such messages. Capitalismojo (talk) 17:04, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Please review. Your notification text seems to be over the line into campaigning, and the breadth of the announcements seems indiscriminate or vote-stacking (in which projects were left out). Capitalismojo (talk) 17:04, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

ANI notification, canvasing.

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Springee (talk • contribs) 15:06, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring notice

Your recent editing history at Talk:Citizens United v. FEC shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you get reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Champaign Supernova (talk) 18:45, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Diplomacy

		The Barnstar of Diplomacy
		HughD, your easy disposition and even responses from inside the hornet's nest are certainly a model for others. I will remember this stellar conduct when tempted otherwise in the future. - Darouet (talk) 22:39, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, but I am not worthy. Hugh (talk) 17:17, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Singer

"Strongly oppose referring to the subject of this article or Elliott Mgmt as "vulture" in Wikipedia voice. Strongly support with in-text attribution and reliable sourcing. Recommend we hold off on discussing the lede for now and circle back to the lede later" I think you misunderstood the format of the discussion. To "agree" was to agree with the edit (linked) removing the use of "vulture" in wikipedia's voice. So you and I were taking exactly the same position but you characterized your !vote as "strongly oppose" when I think you meant to say you "strongly support" the edit under discussion. If I misunderstand your position, I apologize in advance. Capitalismojo (talk) 16:18, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. The format is confusing to me. I tried to clarify. What do you think? The edit in question is a removal of content from the body, not the lede, and removal of content with in-text attribution to multiple RS, not in "WP voice." Hugh (talk) 16:34, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

It is a confusing format. Better clarity now from your response I think, (I also replied at talk). I really don't care about the term "vulture" too much either way, but I can see how it is used in a perjorative way and is one the subject has apparently publicly objected to. It seems to me there are likely RS that may refer to him as a vulture if he was indeed the inventor of "vulture equity investing". Something about it "vulture fund" should be included. Capitalismojo (talk) 17:15, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Editor Behavior ANI

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. [[3]] Springee (talk) 15:29, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban imposition

HughD, upon reviewing the second ANI discussion, the first ANI discussion, Talk:Americans for Prosperity and the now arguments over the closing attempts at the RFC, I am now imposing a two-week topic ban against you on anything related to Americans for Prosperity. This including any noticeboard discussions about the RFC, any further debates about the closing, whatever. Take two weeks off in full from this issue. These two weeks, which will have zero overall affect in the campaign season long-term, will give you a rest from the daily routine of that page and hopefully everything can be better evaluated with a little space. I'd normally just block you and throw away the key as a way to calm the situation but instead I'm giving you a lot of rope (Fred Koch and whatever else are not included) as I'm presuming that you have enough sense not to try to argue the same things in other ways and you can conduct yourself on other articles without the same attitude and arguments. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)