User talk:Monochrome Monitor

Editing sex differences in intelligence NOVEMBER 25 NEW POST

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intelligence

Some of the sources on this page are from the 90s which seems pretty outdated. The latest sources seem to be from early 2000s even though newer studies have been published since then. I want your permission if I can cite a 2008 study on sex differences in intelligence with a sample size of 7000....and I am asking this because I don't want my edit undone.This is the study I want to cite and edit with:

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/222660770_Sex_differences_in_latent_cognitive_abilities_ages_6_to_59_Evidence_from_the_WoodcockJohnson_III_tests_of_cognitive_abilities

I also want to delete the sources from 1999 and 1998 because they are too old and update them with other newer sources that I have. What's your take?

User:Doe1994

Monochrome Monitor/ Talk

HELLO!

A barnstar for you!

	The Minor barnstar
	Thanks for the extra towns in Turkey! Any contribution is greatly appreciated. Pbfreespace3 (talk) 03:11, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks man. :) --Monochrome_Monitor 03:32, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Editing sex differences in intelligence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intelligence

Some of the sources on this page are from the 90s which seems pretty outdated. The latest sources seem to be from early 2000s even though newer studies have been published since then. I want your permission if I can cite a 2008 study on sex differences in intelligence with a sample size of 7000....and I am asking this because I don't want my edit undone.This is the study I want to cite and edit with:

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/222660770_Sex_differences_in_latent_cognitive_abilities_ages_6_to_59_Evidence_from_the_WoodcockJohnson_III_tests_of_cognitive_abilities

I also want to delete the sources from 1999 and 1998 because they are too old and update them with other newer sources that I have. What's your take?

User:Doe1994

A barnstar for you!

The Tireless Contributor Barnstar

WOW! You have really helped he Turkish map forward. However, there are a couple of things to remember. Firstly, you should source all edits about Kurdish control, by including the source link in the edit description. Secondly, if there is ever fighting going on in a city, you should use this icon: 80x80-lime-yellow-anim.gif This icon will change soon, because we are introducing new colors for Turkey and possibly Kurds soon. Please source edits. Pbfreespace3 (talk) 16:22, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Welldone. I haven't tracked you, so these compliments attesting to your continued presence here and the excellence of your contributions is refreshing news. Keep up the good work.Nishidani (talk) 16:44, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I was terrified of being caught as a sockpuppet and felt terrible. I just didn't want people to know my IP address when I accidentally used it. I did so recently on the turkish talk page and had to delete my comment. Ugh it spiraled downhill so I didn't edit WP for a few months, even "anonymously" (it is true that my account is a shared IP, but others barely use it). Anyway, I've tried to avoid I&P edits, I hate the conflict even though I'm still fairly passionate about it. More moderated than most though. I accept there's truth to the "other narrative" and there's truth to my narrative, but neither are the "truth". I do think Jews have more rights in Israel than WP (and the international community) recognizes, but it's no for me to be a justice warrior. I'm just a little ticked off about the Palestine 1948 war. Someone reverted my cited troop figures because they prefer their uncited version. Annoying. Anyway, I'm ranting. Yeah, the Turkey thing is pretty interesting. I hope Kurds get their freedom without a bloody Civil War. Ergodan is a dickhead.--Monochrome_Monitor 23:54, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

I do think Jews have more rights in Israel than WP (and the international community) recognizes,

You surely don't mean that, young woman? For the sentence says that Jews in Israel have more rights than non-Jews. This may be so, but generally WP articles on Israel don't argue this, and the international community doesn't fuss over discriminations there. Your error was to use Israel as a synonym for Land of Israel, and affirm that in your view settlers have more rights in the West Bank than WP and the International Community are willing to allow. This is certainly true, but again it is probably not what you intended to say (=Jews have more rights to the land than do Palestinians). Be careful, and, of course, take care in the more normal sense of the idiom.Nishidani (talk) 19:59, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I meant "more rights to Israel". Semantics. You know what I meant. I didn't mean more rights than Palestinian Arabs, but more rights than some Christian Swedish guy? Hell yes. Anyway, I'm majoring in Physics, not English. --Monochrome_Monitor 20:02, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Oh, you changed your edit. Cause even with the words "in Israel" it didn't mean what you wrote originally. Regardless, thanks for the Barnstar! --Monochrome_Monitor 20:03, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Words mean more than what we think they mean when we write them at first draft. I've read pretty widely here. Of course there are Israel-deniers, a lunatic fringe, but as Norman Finkelstein says, deny Israel and you are denying 'international law' and lose all credibility. No person in his right (or left)mind denies Israel, because to deny an historical, perfectly legal national reality is an indication of mental problems. Neither the international community nor Wikipedia articles deny 'Israel'. This whole absurd ruckus is what Israel does outside Israel, that is where 99% of the contention arises. As to majoring in physics, not English, a suggestion. Read Edgar Allan Poe's Eureka and list how many startling anticipations he makes of modern physics! Cheers Nishidani (talk) 21:00, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I hate his disgusting book about how Jews exploit the Holocaust for money, but I appreciate his relative moderation. Will read. I love Poe. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:03, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

The Eureka-Modern physics connection is mentioned in an article in the New York Review of Books recently. Finkelstein doesn't talk of 'Jews' exploiting the Holocaust: the book analyses small groups using the Holocaust for polemical leverage or to extract huge sums which never went back to Holocaust survivors (the situation in Israel is a disgrace, even if the figures in this report are rubbery. Finkelstein's numbers are far lower), It's a personal and legitimate grievance. His mother got a lousy $3,000 dollars from the Swiss Bank money, whereas his father, for technical reasons, got a regular generous pension as recompense for his identical sufferings, because it was disbursed directly by the German government, without professional intermediaries interfering. His complaint is that monies due to aged survivors were put in escrow, huge retainer fees collected, and little of what was due to them was disbursed. Anyway, let's not talk of that. I hope the Eureka read stimulates your studies. Regards Nishidani (talk) 21:21, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

You got it. I don't know about the actual book, just how it was exploited by neo-nazis... And the many reviews which called it nazi-esque. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:30, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

But I'm done talking now. Thanks again!

A barnstar for you!

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	Your work on the Turkish map really is tireless. I had expected I would be one of the only people working on the map, as it is a truly underreported conflict at the moment, but here you are making the map great. Thank you, and keep up the good work. Pbfreespace3 (talk) 22:18, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! That makes me feel fantastic. Sorry about all the edits, It sucks that there's no "preview" function, so I have to use trial and error. --Monochrome_Monitor 22:20, 24 August 2015 (UTC) I think I'll add border crossings.

Turkish Map General Statements

First, the border crossings need to be placed under the dots of control of the border crossings. This is the visual style implemented on all other maps. To do this, simply place the border crossing icon before the control icon on the module, and it will appear correctly.

Second, the carte interactive de Kurdistan cannot be used. In general, we can't use other maps to edit this map, as it is unencyclopedic.

Third, the lime color was chosen to avoid confusion with the Syrian and Iraqi governments. Sunni government groups should, in general, be shown as green. André437 is making darker green icons for our use on this map, and they should be ready soon.

Fourth, cities and towns should be size-marked based on an average of 2 factors: geographical size and population density. On the Syria map, I typically mark a village with 100 houses bigger than a 40 house village of the same geographic size. So both population and size are factors.

Fifth, we're going to use the yellow color for both PKK azd "declared autonomy". In most cases, these are actually pretty close to the same thing, just a difference of branding. This may change in the future, if more groups appear/infighting occurs.

So far you have done an excellent job on the map. Keep going, and just post on my talk page if you have any questions; that's how I'll get the message quickest. Pbfreespace3 (talk) 20:42, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Sure thing. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:01, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and thanks again for the barnstar. Comes with rotating action!--Monochrome_Monitor 07:30, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

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October 2015

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October 2015

Welcome to Wikipedia. We welcome and appreciate your contributions, including your edits to Rope (film), but we cannot accept original research. Original research refers to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist; it also encompasses combining published sources in a way to imply something that none of them explicitly say. Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. Thank you. DonIago (talk) 14:40, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Criticism of the Israeli government

Hello, the removal of two entire sections in that article is unacceptable.--Makeandtoss (talk) 20:40, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

One section I removed was criticism of criticism. It was horribly redundant and eclipsed the rest of the article. The other section on Nazism was perfectly justified, as it is both a WP:FRINGE and a highly racist view. You aren't exactly a nuetral arbiter of what is acceptable, considering your edit history on the article. --Monochrome_Monitor 20:44, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

I only add referenced content, I am not making anything up. You could have rewritten it into a less 'racist' view, I see no use in removing it. And no its not WP:FRINGE, it has been broadly mentioned in several sources. Also I fail to see how my edit history is relevant, that content was already there, I just extended it. --Makeandtoss (talk) 20:50, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

The section is just unprecedented. Just because you have quotes saying it doesn't mean it's worth wikipedia coverage. There are quotes saying all sorts of ridiculous things, but they aren't reliable. The Nazi-Israel analogy is considered antisemitic by The State Department and the EU, not just one Jewish group. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:04, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

So? Even if the EU and USA consider it antisemitism, how does that make any difference? The US Department list contains several other examples, why don't I see you removing their content on their respective wikipedia articles?--Makeandtoss (talk) 21:17, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

That's a fallacy. I would remove it if it were truly egregious, and this is. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:28, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Its not a fallacy. Discussing antisemitism is not antisemitism.--Makeandtoss (talk) 21:35, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Obviously it isn't. But the section isn't discussing it, it's presenting it as a legitimate view rather than one considered by many as racist. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:42, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

My point was that you should have rearranged it into a legitimate view instead of erasing it.--Makeandtoss (talk) 21:47, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't want conflict. It's really quite simple. The article should be about criticism of Israel, not libels considered to be antisemitic. It undermines the actual criticism on the rest of the page. --Monochrome_Monitor 22:09, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

It is simple. This is about criticism of Israel, scholars have criticized Israel's policy through the several resemblances to Nazi Germany. There is no WP:ANTISEMETIC. I too, don't want to engage on this. I am sorry but I will be re-adding that content shortly, its not your decision to make.--Makeandtoss (talk) 22:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

No, scholars haven't. Pundits have. Please find me one reliable source which has made the comparison. And by reliable I mean a source by a historian familiar with Nazi Germany. --Monochrome_Monitor 22:33, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

I didn't delete it because it's antisemitic. I deleted it because It's fringe, and given undue prominence. --Monochrome_Monitor 22:34, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

A quick internet search on Norman Finkelstein a prominent Jewish scholar (so that you don't give me that antisemitic nonsense, I hope you don't say he's is a self-hating Jew) here here here here. I am sorry, I will no longer answer here.--Makeandtoss (talk) 23:30, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

He's not a prominent Jewish scholar. His work is highly controversial and was described in a new york times review as anti-semitic. Also, his field of expertise is not Nazism. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:03, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

ARGH he is a goddamned Jew, how on earth can he be anti-semetic? oh lala New York times, all hail the New York Bible. I am so done here, I have an allergy to BS.--Makeandtoss (talk) 00:06, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

They called the book antisemitic, not him. Look, I'll restore the section. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:07, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh, great you already restored it. Isn't that fantastic. Now the integrity of the entire page is compromised..--Monochrome_Monitor 00:09, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Reminder: This article is under WP:1RR. I've fully protected it for a period to avoid blocking you both. Makeandtoss has also been warned on my talk page. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:46, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! --Monochrome_Monitor 21:53, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

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Notification

Nishidani has continued the debate at Talk:Jews#Cite_grouping at another forum, namely Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#Definition_of_Jews._Gross_original_research.2FWP:SYNTH_violation, the WP:NOR noticeboard. Since you have commented at the first discussion, but not (yet) at the second, I thought I'd bring this to your attention, in case you would like to comment there as well. Debresser (talk) 20:42, 25 October 2015 (UTC) Ugh. I hate conflict! --Monochrome_Monitor 00:42, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

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You tube...

...is not a reliable source, especially where it concerns uploads which are likely copyright violations. Reasd WP:YOUTUBE for clarification. Please do not edit war. BMK (talk) 08:38, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

That's not what it means.

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This isn't a self-published source. It's a link to a record of a primary source. Such a thing is very common. --Monochrome_Monitor 08:40, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

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Olivier

Please stop removing cited material from the article. If you think such material should not be there, the best course of action is to go to the talk page to discuss it. - SchroCat (talk) 08:45, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you on that, but I still don't understand why you wouldn't respond to me on your talk page. --Monochrome_Monitor 12:14, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Please also be mindful of the current consensus on the Olivier talk page regarding the use of an infobox. As it stands, the consensus is against one. As such, your addition of one has been reverted. If you have somerhing to say on the matter please discuss it there. Thanks. Cassianto^Talk 16:08, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Alright then. --Monochrome_Monitor 16:10, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

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The Scarlet Letter (1926 film)

Hi. You can't use IMDB's trivia section as a source, please see WP:CITEIMDB. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 15:27, 13 November 2015 (UTC) Oh, that makes sense. Thanks. --Monochrome_Monitor 15:41, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Recent edit to Criticism of the Israeli government

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. I noticed that you removed some content from Criticism of the Israeli government without explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; I restored the removed content. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you! Materialscientist (talk) 03:32, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

It's a long-running thing. Check the talk page. I removed it because it's WP:FRINGE and WP:BLATANTLY RACIST. --Monochrome_Monitor 03:49, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

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Block

Hello there @NeilN:. I understand why I was blocked but your "sentence" seems heavy-handed. I mean, I can't edit talkpages. Also, 99% of my edits are not Arab-Israeli whatever. Can you just block me from Arab-Israeli for a week and not every article? --Monochrome_Monitor 19:52, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately not. Blocks are designed to stop you from editing any page on Wikipedia except your own talk page. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:45, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

That's ridiculous. Most of my edits have nothing to do with the subject. Just look at my contribution history. As of late it's mostly been stuff about silent film and pre-war Broadway. It would make more sense to ban me from ARBPIA for a fortnight than everything for a week. --Monochrome_Monitor 22:46, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

The fact you are advising on areas where you should be blocked, indicates your acknowledgement that perhaps a block is for the best. Sit it out and learn from it. Cassianto^Talk 23:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

All right, two week topic ban on ARBPIA-related subjects. Note this covers all areas of Wikipedia including talk pages and noticeboards. Please don't make me look like an idiot for assuming good faith and believing you will edit productively in other areas. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:14, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I wont my friend. Thank you! --Monochrome_Monitor 23:17, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

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— Preceding unsigned comment added by RolandR (talk • contribs) 01:15, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Your activity on the article for "Jews"

I think you contribute valuable and balanced insight on the topic at hand. Thank you for the hard work on such a volatile subject.

Jasphetamine (talk) 01:56, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh dear I appreciate that immensely but I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to. --Monochrome_Monitor 02:09, 16 November 2015 (UTC) @Jasphetamine: Ding! --Monochrome_Monitor 03:02, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh. Your input on the Jews article about stuff like the population estimate and the relentless pursuit of ditching Portman for Bernhardt. I like Natalie, she went to day school near my hometown. She's no SB though. Jasphetamine (talk) 03:17, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh, thanks! The population thing was absurd. In what universe are "non-Jewish family members" Jews? And with Bernhardt and Portman it's like comparing Shakespeare to.... um... not Shakespeare. --Monochrome_Monitor 03:23, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Haha, I think that non-Jewish family members being Jewish is my favorite example of Wikipedia's penchant for creating Orwellian 2+2=5 type declarations. It is alarming that it went uncontested in the first place. Jasphetamine (talk) 03:52, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

I contested it before but it went nowhere, then finally I had it and was like "ARE YOU PEOPLE SANE?!!?!?" ARE YOU READING THIS?!?! I still don't understand the argument of the guy why defended it. It was something like "a range is better". And someone quipped "then why not just write 0-7 billion?" --Monochrome_Monitor 04:00, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Dammit some jerk changed the population again. It was good before!!!! --Monochrome_Monitor 04:01, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Maybe the solution is to just write "Yes" in the population field. Jasphetamine (talk) 04:38, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

That's brilliant! A sense of humor will get you far on wikipedia. I never take myself seriously. I've been here for two years but still manage to act like a newbie. --Monochrome_Monitor 04:46, 16 November 2015 (UTC) Hell, I got blocked today. (For deleting a truly odious section on criticism of israel comparing it to nazi germany, an analogy which is considered antisemitic)

I have bestowed upon the Jews talk page the solution for the Great SB vs NP Infobox Schism of 2015. I would avoid fiddling around with the controversial stuff for a while if you got wiki-trouble from it. I don't want you to go and get some excessively long block you're the first person in this place that doesn't seem crazy. seems to be exactly the right kind of crazy for me to get along with. Well I'm off to copyedit until I forget my woes. Jasphetamine (talk) 06:52, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I might suggest a vacation from editing the Jews page; I see a bad moon rising. Jasphetamine (talk) 06:26, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Suggest away! I thought so too... Hahaha I can be impulsive. Typical wikidragon! I'm going to start calling it that. "the schism" @Jasphetamine:--Monochrome_Monitor 09:06, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

"If I was a religion then my church... would surely have a schism. There'd be Rejewish and Rejuslam and Rejatheists but they'd all be friends, all right!"[1] Jasphetamine (talk) 20:29, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

You were right all along. You're a badass. Jasphetamine (talk) 02:55, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Was I? You're so sweet! How did you do the calculations? --Monochrome_Monitor 03:09, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

I dug up percentages from a few governments, looked at mean distribution between a few places. Everything lined up right for the lower numbers. Then I used the CIA factbook as a singular source of data, which can be cited, stating 7 billion people, .2% of which are Jewish, and poof that works out. 14 million. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasphetamine (talk • contribs) 05:10, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Brilliant! You crunched the numbers, I love it! --Monochrome_Monitor 05:14, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Nothing fancy but enough to confidently say we don't need to include a 25% "you tell me" margin in the info box numbers and can say 14 mil and back that up with sources. I doubt it'll ever get done though, that kid who can't deal with the idea of a median or significant digits will never quit. I kept up with him because I hate not knowing things. Now I know roughly how many Jewish people are out there and I'm done. I'm gonna go get a bunch of challah, red wine, and watch the Sopranos for a while. I wonder what infobox population on wiki i'd get put in. Heh. Jasphetamine (talk) 05:25, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Hahaha sounds magnificent. I think you'd get put in Homo sapiens, but just in case that's too insular (it excludes Neanderthals after all and many people have neanderthal descent!) I'd put you in Homo :P --Monochrome_Monitor 05:31, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

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13/11 listed at Redirects for discussion

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David Bret#Criticism sourcing

When you contribute vague citations such as the one to The Queer Encyclopedia of Film & Television missing a passing comment is hardly surprising. Moreover when you add "cites" that are naked URLs, particularly when the same sources have already been cited properly earlier in the article, you make extra work for others. Please reuse repeated citations properly, and supply full metadata for newly cited sources. Note also that in general 'Criticism' sections, like 'Controversy' sections, are discouraged, although they are sometimes appropriate. DES ^(talk) 21:43, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm the first to admit my cites are often poorly formatted. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:46, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Olivier edits (yet again)

You have been asked to discuss this matter on the talk page, but you appear to prefer to engage in a slow-burn edit war. This is disruptive and not a constructive course of action. The consensus of the two community processes this article has gone through was that the text should remain. Unless you can change that consensus on the article's talk page, I strongly suggest you do not delete it again. If you continue to remove the text, the matter will be raised in an appropriate forum. - SchroCat (talk) 12:59, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I didn't intend a slow-burn edit war. Rather I just edit impulsively, sometimes returning to old haunts. Though I do try to space it out, my sense of timing is not particularly keen. But thanks for taking it here. It's not that I'm trying to be disruptive, I just don't like confrontation. --Monochrome_Monitor 13:08, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

There wouldn't be confrontation Monochrome Monitor if you had initiated a talk page discussion; that's what the talk page is for. The way to introduce hostility and confrontation is to stick two fingers up to everyone who disagrees with you. By refusing to discuss and implementing your preferred version is, ironically, doing the very thing you didn't wish to achieve. Cassianto^Talk 13:51, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I would call that unfortunate, not ironic. But I'll initiate a discussion in a bit.--Monochrome_Monitor 14:17, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Note: something else is going on here. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:24, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Pardon? --Monochrome_Monitor 14:26, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

See your email. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:48, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Damn

Just realized the man who graced me with rotating barnstars has been blocked indefinitely. RIP Pbfreespace. --Monochrome_Monitor 15:01, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	Your work on the Turkish map really is tireless. I had expected I would be one of the only people working on the map, as it is a truly underreported conflict at the moment, but here you are making the map great. Thank you, and keep up the good work. Nishidani (talk) 15:05, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I hope that relieves the annoyance (at least until I get banned:) Nishidani (talk) 15:05, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hooray! Thank you! Unfortunately the news coverage of PKK-Turkey is awfully spotty what with Syria and the like. --Monochrome_Monitor 15:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I would love some freePBJ right now. Space. --Monochrome_Monitor 18:46, 23 November 2015 (UTC) @Nishidani:

ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:02, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I voted! Is there an "I voted" template of some sort? --Monochrome_Monitor 20:33, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

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Criticism of the Israeli Govt edits

Hi MM. I notice you have been sanctioned in the Criticism article. You made another edit blanking the whole Comparisons to Nazis section which I agree was designed as heap of POV crap. However criticisms of the view are being added to the section. Its better to make the section look stupid with good counter sources than to blank the whole thing. Please take this advice on board and dont make Neil escalate any block. Again, leave it for now, and when you return to it, just counter it with sources ridiculing it. As it is, in my opinion mostly grotesque. However, we debunk, we do not delete! Simon Irondome (talk) 00:50, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I know, it was silly and impulsive. Love you Simon! --Monochrome_Monitor 09:06, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Turkish Insurgency Detailed Map

Hello, you can add Hınıs, Karayazı, Karaçoban and Tekman districts of Erzurum Province to map? Some districts of the Erzurum Province has declared autonomy. Bruskom (talk) 04:27, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I would love to! --Monochrome_Monitor 11:56, 16 December 2015 (UTC) In a bit.

In your scarce leisure you may like to dally with a few hours reading John Buchan's Greenmantle, which has an extensive description of Erzurum. It also is a fantasy that anticipates modern fantasies about the ME.Nishidani (talk) 21:31, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Fun. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:38, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Hey Nish, today I realized I am a victim of the cot-caught merger. I thought I didn't have a boston accent! Phonetics is amazing, but I prefer phonemics. Any advice on how to trill? I can't do alveolar or uvular. :( --Monochrome_Monitor 21:44, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

I pronounce cot/caught like the lady in the example ogg. To me she doesn't sound like she has an accent! --Monochrome_Monitor 21:46, 25 December 2015 (UTC) @Nishidani: --Monochrome_Monitor 21:53, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

'Does the cot/caught merger, for example, arise from a movement of the cot vowel up into the space of the caught vowel or from the movement of the caught cowel down into the cot vowel’s territory?' Matthew J. Gordon, Labov: A Guide for the Perplexed, Bloomsbury 2013 p.180

Ahem!, a New Year's Sonnet of Consolation and Encouragement for MM.

Nomadic vowels, dear M! They’re apt to trot

Out of the high ridge close where they were taught

To graze their accents, and, in solemn sort,

Mosey in the open fields of a lower spot.

Or –as transhumants go both ways- the lot

Up stakes, (unless they end up steaks), and sport

Back to the palate’s field of narrow talk

And season their sounds up in that lofty plot.

There’s no good reason to be overwrought

By the shift.What you’re saddled with is not

A carceral corral. A little practice ought

To get both tongue and uvula to trill

In alternate harmonies: there’s naught that’s got

A right to dictate speech. So speak, dear, as you will!

And now, back to hosing up the pond so that the goldfish can nip at the lush moss on its brink.Nishidani (talk) 10:47, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

That was magnificent, thank you! --Monochrome_Monitor 17:27, 26 December 2015 (UTC) I'm framing that on my user page!

I, undeserving, am honoured by my doggeral's new home! I hate to think that its propaedeutic function, getting you to distinguish those vowels in recitation, might cause time-wasting woe. No need to do that, of course. One should be proud of any accent one has. Best Nishidani (talk) 18:38, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I want say something clever with the words "doggeral", "dogma", "doggedly", "doggery" and the like but you get the point. --Monochrome_Monitor 22:31, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Hello an Turkey location map created. I'm trying to change the map on template but It does not change. Are you can change the map on template ? Map.... Bruskom ^{talk to me} 04:11, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, that map was where I was going, but I have no idea how to change it. I recommend asking the people on Wikipedia:Lua --Monochrome_Monitor 07:22, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

@Bruskom:--Monochrome_Monitor 07:23, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Season's Greetings

File:Xmas Ornament.jpg

To You and Yours!

FWiW Bzuk (talk) 17:04, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, thanks! I'm sorry... do I know you? I'm terrible with usernames. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:10, 19 December 2015 (UTC) @Bzuk:

We edit in some of the same neighbourhoods, especially film articles. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 21:54, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Fun. Anything article in particular? --Monochrome_Monitor 01:56, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Your work and mine seems to intersect in many articles; I recall doing some "touch-up" on Charles Lindbergh and Marlon Brando, and seeing your contributions. As an aside, some of that time, when we "dared" to make alterations to the holy script, we both also invoked the wrath of other editors that had more than a passing interest in some of those touchstone articles. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 13:20, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I remember! Like Laurence Olivier! Yeah it's hard being a wiki Dragon. --Monochrome_Monitor 18:12, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Some baklava for you!

Bruskom talk to me 19:19, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! I LOVE BAKLAVA! How did you know? Sorry for lashing out on the talk page. :) I'm pro Kurdish independence and unification, but I don't want anyone to think my bias and others' is affecting the neutrality of the page. --Monochrome_Monitor 19:20, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

How do we judge how actor articles should be rated?

Since you will be aware of Talk:Angelina Jolie#How do we judge how actor articles should be rated? by the WP:Ping, I'm posting this section on your talk page for those who might want answers after seeing your edits. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:41, 24 December 2015 (UTC) @Flyer22 Reborn: I totally agree with you, it should be high. --Monochrome_Monitor 05:56, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

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anterograde amnesia

Is going forwards from the event while retrograde is before the event. Best Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:04, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Holy shit you're right! Oops! --Monochrome_Monitor 03:07, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

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Fuck you, DPL bot. And your mother. --Monochrome_Monitor 09:29, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Arabic numerals

Please seek consensus for your proposed changes to Arabic numerals on the talk page of that artice before making them again. Edit warring is not the way forward, you may be blocked if you continue to insist on your changes without a talk page consensus. Thanks, Paul August ☎ 10:56, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm not edit warring. I'm familiar with policy. You on the other hand are exhibiting ownership behavior from your edit history on this page, and have given no valid reasons for reverting my edits aside from invalid arguments such as "no consensus" and "BRD", both which I thoroughly debunked. If you want to take it to arbitration, be my guest, I have not done anything wrong. Give me a valid reason for reversion and I'll gladly drop it.--Monochrome_Monitor 11:00, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

(ec) Of, course you are edit warring, from WP:EW: "An edit war occurs when editors who disagree about the content of a page repeatedly override each other's contributions." The page has a long consensus for preferring to call these numerals "Arabic numerals" (hence the current name of the article). This certainly can (and perhaps should) be changed, but the way to achieve this is to start a discussion on the talk page, seeking a consensus for such a change, not to repeatedly insist on your changes, by editing against consensus. Paul August ☎ 11:16, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Well, except for violating 3RR. Damn. Whatever, I know you don't want to get into the same trouble yourself but I'll stop reverting it if you do. --Monochrome_Monitor 11:03, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

I not going to revert again, no matter what you do. Paul August ☎ 11:22, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh, nevermind, of course it was already reverted. Ah, sorry for yelling at you. I have not slept at all "tonight" (I'm in a UTC -5 time zone). --Monochrome_Monitor 11:04, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for saying you're sorry. It's not a problem. Please enjoy a good night's sleep, everything always seems better in the morning. I'm happy to discuss any proposed changes in the article later. Regards, Paul August ☎ 11:22, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

CATCH A NAP. That's an order!Nishidani (talk) 11:11, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Just did! Oy, there are discretionary sanctions for everything! --Monochrome_Monitor 17:14, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh, was the problem that I was calling it Hindu-Arabic numerals? I can easily change that. My edits were mostly meant to clarify the distinction of numerals vs numeral system. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:17, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Your thoughts? [2] @Paul August:--Monochrome_Monitor 17:29, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

@Nishidani: I was thinking Nish, we should collaborate on an I/P article! It could be a true meeting of the minds, in the spirit of wikipedia and whatnot. Of course we can't abuse the middle ground fallacy, but I should think our opinions are not binary opposites.--Monochrome_Monitor 17:48, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

I would much rather see you spend more time on your University studies that on writing things like the life of Manuel Musallam, a Catholic priest and Palestinian nationalist! Nishidani (talk) 21:02, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

I meant articles that we both acknowledge are lacking. :P --Monochrome_Monitor 21:06, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Albert Antébi and Gertrud Kolmar were lacking until I did them (and many others). It's good training to try and enter into another culture and another historical person's milieu and identity and, without anxiety, make a fair assessment of her place in the world. Musallem has long fascinated me, and I'll eventually do his bio. As I said, don't waste too much time on wiki work. Even Terence Tao screwed up his exams at 17 by cramming at the last moment, trusting in his powers and wits to get through, when the less talented managed, by working sedulously over the year through the whole programme systematically, to do better than him. Nishidani (talk) 21:27, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Well that's not a problem, I never study for anything. Never heard of that guy before. It's weird that he's 40 but looks like 19. And are you calling me "less talented"? :P --Monochrome_Monitor 06:16, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

@Nishidani: Ugh. He hasn't given me any valid reason for the reversion of my edits... I hate the prevailing wikipedia attitude which is resistant to change and insists on discussions for the tiniest things which no one actually discusses. I hate being a wikidragon, it's exhausting. --Monochrome_Monitor 03:15, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Biographies of filmmakers

Hello! Just a reminder, the Film project does not cover biography articles. Therefore, please do not add the {{WikiProject Film}} banner to articles about actors, directors and filmmakers. Those articles are covered by adding |filmbio-work-group=yes to {{WikiProject Biography}} instead. Thanks! Fortdj33 (talk) 18:57, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! That does clear things up, I was confused because several biographies were listed in the project --Monochrome_Monitor 19:01, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Sources removed

Hi. Comparing the last few edits at Jews, I noticed that two sources were removed.[3] Why? Debresser (talk) 09:23, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

They were irrelevant. They didn't cite what they said they were citing. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:01, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Do you perhaps have other sources? I think we need some sources there. Debresser (talk) 12:01, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh, yes we do. I'll add some in a bit. :) --Monochrome_Monitor 12:11, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Also, only one source was removed, the usury one. The maimonaides one (also not ideal) was just moved, not removed. Hah, that's funny. --Monochrome_Monitor 12:12, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Category:Jews and Category:People of Jewish descent

Monochrome Monitor, few people go to a category page to read a description of the category (which doesn't exist on most category pages) and I doubt that the average editor who is categorizing an article will do so before deciding whether to categorizing an individual as Jewish or People of Jewish descent.
You have no authority to write a statement like "If this category is used without Category:Jews there should be some evidence they rejected identifying as Jewish in its sense of a peoplehood" and tell people what they should or should not do. The only guideline that currently exists is Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality and you can not unilaterally impose additional restrictions on editors beyond those that are contained in this guideline especially because these qualifications didn't arise out of a discussion on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism and seem to be of your own design. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:53, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

It arose out of the fact that the category is consistently misused. I thought it was better to go de facto by how it is used. They are not used, on thousands of articles, mutually-exclusively. For instance, Irving Berlin is listed under both categories. Unlike many on wikipedia I do not like to preserve maladaptive status quos, and I go and change things.--Monochrome_Monitor 16:56, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Liza, see my comment at Category_talk:People_of_Jewish_descent#Ugh. Debresser (talk) 19:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

APSAC

Hi,

I noticed you added some links to Attachment therapy including an APSAC report. I just thought I'd mention that a while back the article about APSAC was deleted. I noticed and requested a copy of it in my userspace to see if I could salvage it. Unfortunately I haven't had the time to give it a good shot and it's still there, in rough shape. If you're digging into relevant resources as it is, maybe you could dump any you find that are about APSAC in some way, on that talk page (or have at it directly, in which case you could move it into your userspace if you wanted).

It's here: User:Rhododendrites/American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children.

Thanks — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:25, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

No problem! I'll look into it right now. --Monochrome_Monitor 02:38, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

How

How did you make your userpage name to appear in green? Debresser (talk) 16:39, 6 February 2016 (UTC) CLick edit on my page to view to source :D @Debresser:--Monochrome_Monitor 17:05, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Ah. I did check the code of this talkpage, but didn't think to check the userpage itself. Thanks. Debresser (talk) 22:53, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

No problem :D --Monochrome_Monitor 01:26, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I need your assistance!

Hello Monochrome Monitor! I was looking to your job with the Turkish Insurgency template for a time, and I saw that you are the major responsible for the editions and updates of this war, or proto-war, whatever... Well, I am making a video for Youtube, one animated map with the Syrian and Iraqi Civil Wars and the subsequent Lebanese, and why not, Turkish spillovers. Will be a everyday video, and it is consuming my free time in this week. Now I am already in 2014 in the map, and I see that I need some assistance with a better speacialist about Turkey than me (my only exp with Turkey regions was in Europa Universalis IV when I tried to recover Byzantium lol haha). More specifically, the evolution of the insurgency since the PKK rebellion until today, only a some data. Which and when each city fell. Can you help me? Leonardo Cebin ^{(disse e fiz)} 04:20, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh shit, I wish I could help you. It sounds like a great idea! I'm not a specialist in Turkey, although you're right that I've done 99% of that page's edits :P Maybe ask @Bruskom:? He speaks kurdmanji. --Monochrome_Monitor 04:24, 7 February 2016 (UTC) @Léo Cebin:

Seems that @Bruskom: receive a block lol. Well, first, I was wondering today one thing... Why we don't build a map like the Syrian one using the template that you make? While it is only a template, the common public, the readers, don't have acess to this. It's "exclusive" to us, editors. With one map, we can upload in the PKK rebellion article for commons viewers too see. After this, will be necessary only make a upload if changes happen. And will be more easy to see where the action is happening. Um simples Wikipedista (talk) 05:21, 8 February 2016 (UTC) [It's me, I changed my nick]

Of course, that's exactly what I've been hoping. But the thing is it's not an actual war yet... just unrest. It shows clashes. So if the map were to be of anything it would be of "places where kurds declared autonomy" --Monochrome_Monitor 12:09, 8 February 2016 (UTC) @Léo Cebin:

I understand. Also, I was searching and seems that the 90s rebellion was much more worse than these, so probably this rebellion will not end with something big, only guerrillas and atacks to police forces. Well, I had some problem with the Hezbollah lines in my videomap, so I was stucked in 2014, but finally I reach now July 24, 2015, so the hour to paint a color in Turkey has come. I learnt much with the related Wiki articles and some things more, and think I can walk alone in this, but it has a hole that can not find sources. I need dates. What sources have you used to verify which cities have proclaimed autonomy? All the changes occur in August/September, and since October cease-fire, none changes have been reported? And in addition to Cizre, another city was conquered by the Turks? If you can help me, thank you!

More one thing. I found a source of news that I think that you will like: [4] A simple Wikipedian ^{(said and did)} 06:52, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh, thanks that's great! Here's a great source --Monochrome_Monitor 12:59, 21 February 2016 (UTC) @Um simples Wikipedista:]

Finklestein

I think that the Finklestein para should be restored. I didn't put it up originally: I remember that there was a lot of discussion when it was put in. I just edited it to respond to the flag that it needed more explanation. I tried to clarify briefly what his book says. It was an important book which documents its points well. It initiated a lot of discussion re: the uniqueness issue, and I believe that it forced historians to re-examine the claims to uniqueness. For that reason, I think that it is more than a fringe contribution. At the same time partly because of the Holocaust Industry, but mainly because of his continual support for the Palestinians he has earned the wrath of many supporters of Israel. Over the years, I have read a number of attempts to refute his research and writing and have yet to be convinced that he is unreliable.Joel Mc (talk) 16:44, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

The book did NOT force historians to re-examine uniqueness. There has been no such earth-shaking shift. I find scholarship takes a middle road of acknowledging the unique parts of the holocaust (ie, death camps) while also acknowledging it in the context of other genocides. It's not a question of unique vs universal, which is a false dichotomy. It's a question of which side specific scholarship leans towards. Elements of specificism and universalism are found in every book on the subject I have read, with many erring towards one side. This is not an issue about Israel. If this article was about I/P it would be reasonable to mention finklestein (albeit with disclaimers). But it's not, it's about the Holocaust. His theory that Jews in America "invented" the holocaust and are using it to extort europe and defend Israel is patent, and dangerous, nonsense. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:07, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Um, did you read any books reviews in the mainstream press? His research (about distribution of restitution funds) is one thing, and he was right in debunking Joan Peter's book as baseless. But his polemics are another thing. He does not have merit in saying, for example, that the Holocaust only came into the public eye in the 70s as part of an American Jewish plot to increase sympathy for Israel following the 6 day war. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:15, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Does it not surprise you at all that the book was praised by Storm Front, David Duke, and David Irving? That's not anti-Israel, it's anti-jewish.--Monochrome_Monitor 17:17, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

And aren't you at all bothered by him saying that reparations are extortion and blackmail? --Monochrome_Monitor 17:20, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

His theory that Jews in America "invented" the holocaust and are using it to extort europe and defend Israel is patent, and dangerous, nonsense.

This statement means you have never read the book, nor followed Finkelstein's work except in cursory reviews from quarter baked hostile critics. I have had to restore it, as illegitimately censored. It is a minor, but significant point of view.Nishidani (talk) 17:23, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Aw, Nish! Since when is the new york times quarter baked? --Monochrome_Monitor 17:45, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't mean he denies it. I mean he distinguishes between the holocaust and "the holocaust", ie, its public perception. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:46, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Since when is the NYTs taken seriously in serious quarters. It took me 2 and a half decades to persuade an American cousin of mine not to read it. He's a high-flyer, and has finally begun to entertain doubts. I cut my teeth on Raul Hilberg's masterpiece - it constituted one of the key moments in my long reading life- and I've never seen anything that suggests Hilberg's judgement on these things is askew. His position was generally close to Finkelstein's, meaning NF's position has extremely strong credentials of informed endorsement. NF is one of 40 academics I can name, mostly Jewish, whose careers ran into a wall when they disagreed with the majority on things like this. No argument, just strongarm tactics of 'fire the bum' and make his or her career collapse. Thuggery. His dad got a good pension directly from the German government because of their responsibility for his trials in the death camps. His mother went through official Jewish channels, and got a one-time handout that was a disgraceful pittance.Nishidani (talk) 17:57, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not talking about the distribution of funds. I'm talking about him maintaining this was done because of Israel. --Monochrome_Monitor 18:06, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

I'd venture, against NF, that the lessons of the holocaust have been more deeply absorbed in parts of the diaspora like the U.S. and Great Britain (outside the incestuously self-referential lobbying bodies that presume to speak up for 'everyone in the community') than it has in Israel. 1967 changed a lot of things, unfortunately. I just get twitchy when I see a consensus or a 'public' attitude. 'Truth' is always a partial, fragmentary perception, twigged by individuals, and lost in the crowd.Nishidani (talk) 18:21, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

I love the Great.--Monochrome_Monitor 18:31, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

We Irish never forget!Nishidani (talk) 18:43, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot, you're Irish. I remember you saying something about that. Do you live in Britain or (Northern) Ireland? --Monochrome_Monitor 18:45, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Neither. To be precise, I live in my library, and in my gardens.Nishidani (talk) 18:50, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Gardens? --Monochrome_Monitor 18:54, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

I think having '4' warrants the plural.Nishidani (talk) 19:18, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh my. Do you have one for each genus? --Monochrome_Monitor 19:20, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

No. I have four for one genius! Whoops, lapsus.:) One's for vegetables, one's for social ambiance, shadily overseen by a sprawling magnolia, and hedged with the stupidly named mock orange, which in Italian is more precisely defined, given its scent, as angel's breasts. The third and fourth are hanging gardens, tiered, for fruit trees,-figs, kiwis, apples, quinces, cherries,plums, with strawberry beds- furnished with nooks for solitude, and a goldfish pool. There are a lot of snakes there, but all friendly.Nishidani (talk) 19:29, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

By that do you mean non-venomous, or non-aggressive? --Monochrome_Monitor 19:34, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Mostly non-venomous. Snakes generally aren't aggressive, and the only one I ever killed, much to my lifelong grief, I killed because relatives were panic-stricken at its innocuous presence near their car. I've never quite forgiven myself, and make a point of picking them up, when asked by locals to do so, and relocating them in bushland close by. In my gardens they can just slither about till they find what they're looking for. That memory, now that I've evoked it, will ruin dinner, and serves me right: a small snake, reared up against a wall, its eye fixed with terror, as I thwacked it, all because folks were worrying they were late for an appointment.Nishidani (talk) 19:42, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh that's terrible. I have never forgiven myself for accidentally killing a tadpole by putting it in water which was too warm. Hopefully you'll get plenty opportunity to redeem yourself in the eyes of the snake gods. --Monochrome_Monitor 19:46, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Snakes?? The Irish?? not sure where this discussion is going. But seriously I find that some of the discussion seems to join those who continually question Finkelstein’s scholarship. Reacting to this, Chicago Professor John Mersheimer’s comments are relevant: "Finkelstein makes compelling arguments in almost all of his writings, and thus he has played a key role in shaping both the academic and public discourse on a host of important subjects. In my opinion, that is the highest accolade one can accord a scholar.”(see: http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/T0003.pdf) Finally, a (the?) dean of Holocaust scholars, Raul Hilberg, has said: “...I am by no means the only one who, in the coming months or years, will totally agree with Finkelstein's breakthrough." Joel Mc (talk) 12:35, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, we already mentioned Hilberg. Of course he likes him, he's his "hero", they are likeminded. So he's not exactly representative of a neutral majority... --Monochrome_Monitor 13:21, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

'Neutrality' and 'majority' are question-begging, and 'neutral majority' is a dangerous coalescence of words. Scholarship is obliged to strive for neutrality (Hilberg's upset a lot of people, he didn't use adjectives), but cannot avoid a perspectival framework that makes every approach to the empirical 'angular'. One must simply work with and against it, consciously. It is extremely rare to find critics of either Hilberg or Finkelstein questioning the exactness of their sourcing and data, something which is wildly askew in the polemics of Finkelstein's critics. Anytime there is a consensus in scholarship, the best scholars will start to think around its edges, or test the foundations. A majority view is a formula for complacency, thrown around in lieu of specific argument. A long time ago, people read Karl Popper and Thomas Kuhn. Nishidani (talk) 14:38, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

You can't deny there's a conflict of interest. Finklestein wrote the book and and said his inspiration was hilberg, and hilberg praised it. Of course. They are like minded. Saying Hilberg is a neutral arbiter is disingenuous. --Monochrome_Monitor 14:44, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

There's no conflict of interest. You are using an abstract assumption that may have some heuristic value at times, but contradicts everything we know about Hilberg. Scholars of his moral and intellectual caliber don't do favours. He wasn't even a 'friend' of NF's. They met only once. And they don't make calculations of personal advantage in their work. Finkelstein was ostracized by pro-Palestinian militants for many of his positions, which weren't 'politically correct'. Had he or Finkelstein made different , 'canny' choices, they would have enjoyed more prestigious careers than those awarded them, the sort of sinecures loud-mouthed smarmy louts in the commentariat enjoy.Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas.Nishidani (talk) 16:05, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

And I don't know where you got the idea that Hilberg is the "dean" of holocaust scholars. --Monochrome_Monitor 15:02, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

I always used words like those with a citation in mind. See here, here, herehere, here and here, for example. Some like to qualify this with 'American', perhaps in deference to his great Israeli contemporary Yehuda Bauer, but Hilberg pioneered the field, and did so at great risk to his academic future, in isolation.Nishidani (talk) 16:05, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

I like Bauer. Hilberg is too functionalist for me. Bauer is pretty rational and even-handed. --Monochrome_Monitor 16:11, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

But I'm not arguing more about finklestein.. I'm not going to remove it, I would want a consensus for that and you two seem to feel strongly about it. --Monochrome_Monitor 16:16, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Nothing to do with 'feeling strongly'. Everything to do with evaluating carefully wiki criteria on sourcing in the face of a huge hall of heckling fools in the commentariat. I'm doing a review of the Hamas article and have read a lot by Matthew Levitt, seconded by Dennis Ross . I regard the latter as a walking disaster and thoroughly disreputable. Levitt is highly prejudiced, identifiably connected to an official Israeli position, and yet knows his subject well. So, whatever my personal views, I use him frequently. It's as simple as that. Nishidani (talk) 16:24, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Oy! However you word it. I'm trying to defuse the confrontation.--Monochrome_Monitor 16:29, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

What confrontation? Simon delegated to me an adversarial advisory role. I'd never engage in a 'confrontation' with you:I'm too old, and you're too nice. I will however, to honour Simon's confidence, 'confront' you with reasoned views that you might find distasteful. Cheers, dear.Nishidani (talk) 18:46, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

An interesting exchange about Bauer and Hilberg. I read the following years ago and was able to find it again. I doubt that Raul Hilberg had any heroes.http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/a-human-being-without-fault-1.230016 Joel Mc (talk) 17:50, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Awwwww you're sweet Nish. It was fine when I was just er, playfully sparring with you, but it got less fun when another joined in, it started to feel like a quarrel (in which I was outnumbered 2:1). --Monochrome_Monitor 19:46, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Um, . . just on a point of form, I barged in on a conversation Joel Mc sought with you. It was I who 'joined in', not Joel, and therefore I must bear any blame you might apportion. As time goes on, I think you'll see the other side to being 'outnumbered' - it is the heroic role. There's no honour in the brute force of numbers, and to stand one's ground (Gloucester in King Lear has it:'I am tied to th' stake, and I must stand the course.') has the merit of dignity, the honour of sincerity and, as often as not, the witness of fidelity to truth. There, I'm being pompous . .it's time to catch my nightly film. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 19:56, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Enjoy the film! I hope it's something good. --Monochrome_Monitor 20:00, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

My absence

Hi MM. I got your off-Wiki communication. I have taken a prolonged wikibreak due to the anniversary of my mothers death coming up. I nursed her in her final 3 months at home. 3 years now but the memories are more vivid. Not easy watching your only immediate relative slipping away. So I have not felt much like editing. Feeling a bit better, and I would like to sincerely apologise. I was not intentionally ignoring you. Call it a retreat from the world. It goes after the 19th March. Till the next year.. Greetings Nishidani also! I hope all is well with you and yours, as always. Your friend (both of you) Simon Irondome (talk) 02:11, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Simon! Do whatever you need for your own wellbeing during your yartzeit. No need to apologize, you've been a wikiblessing for me. ♥--Monochrome_Monitor 02:32, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

This is uncanny. I got worried two months ago at not seeing any edits from Simon, and all those Bugle posts dumped mechanically on the talk page. On the one hand, this place can be stressful, and a quiet break might have been just the thing, so I held off from an intrusive query as to whether or not all was well. After 2 months while remonstrating obnoxiously with our young MM, I thought, since she had your email, of asking her to use that channel to send on my best regards, and a request you not reply if all was well. And I didn't do that, because, again, it would look nosey. I'm delighted on the one hand to hear you are well, and, on the other, moved by your period of commemorative mourning, something I share, since I don't celebrate my birthday, it being the anniversity of my mother's death to the hour, and attentive relatives never fuss over it, intuiting that the day cannot be festive, however much I feel thankful for her bearing me (until I became obnoxious in early youth, causing her endless embarrassment by refusing to knuckle under the rules of the prestigious school she sent me to, a fucking concentration camp of bright kids and reactionary politics). Best wishes and my thoughts to you and your mother this coming month.Nishidani (talk) 17:57, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Since Umberto Eco was commemorated today, at his funeral Moni Ovadia told us one of Eco's Yiddish jokes, far more colourfully than in the flat version you get at Jewish humour. It ran like this.

One day early in the morning, the rabbi of Chelm had a visit, announced, as extremely urgent, from one of his local community, Yankel. Yankel persisted in badgering his keep to be allowed to see the busy rabbi, and at last the latter relented.

'Rabbi, you must help me. Something dreadful happened today, and I need your advice.'

'Good grief! What happened? I'll see what I can do.'

'I was having breakfast this morning and. . .

'Oh come now, man, get to the matter, don't beat about the bush!'

'Right. I was having breakfast and took a slice of bread. . . '

'Now, now, I have no interest whatsoever in what you had for breakfast. Cut to the chase, my good man...

'As I buttered the slice of bread . . .'

'Goodness me, get out. I've no time to waste on . .

'The bread slipped out of my hand, and fell on the floor.'

'So?'

'It fell on the floor on the buttered side up..'

'Nonsense. That's impossible. You mustn't have looked closely.'

'No, rabbi. It fell with the buttered side up.'

'This is not a religious problem. It's simple physics that every piece of buttered bread that falls on the floor must fall with the buttered side down.'

'But, rabbi, I have excellent sight, and I swear on the Torah it fell as I said it did.'

The rabbi fixed Yankel in a severe gaze, scanning his face for the telltale signs of sincerity, and quickly convinced himself Yankel had told the truth.

'Well, son, this is an extraordinary business. I've never heard the likes of it, and it will take some time for me to examine all of my books to find out an answer for that situation. At that, agreeing that Yankel would be called when a solution was found, the Rabbi retired to his extensive library, and began reading.

No solution was forthcoming over the following week, and the rabbi started to send letters out to all of the surpassing masters of the Kabbalistic tradition, the eruditi of the Zohar, and eminent sages, from Baghdad to the forsaken nooks of Jerusalem, to the yeshivot in New York. No one could come up with a text that would cut the Gordian knot in this case and throw light on the miracle. An intense round-robin of correspondence ensued through all the global quarters of far-flung Talmudic study centres. Finally, after 3 years, Yankel was summoned.

'The problem has been clarified, Yankel. All is clear. The problem was that you buttered the wrong side of the bread.' Best Nishidani (talk) 17:57, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

(I'm sure at least one hostile reader of my contributions will take my mentioning this, to both of you no doubt, familiar joke, in an obscurely negative light. But as told by Ovadia, one of the great exponents of the Bulgarian Yiddish tradition, it drew a lovely knowing chuckle through the crowd for the way Ovadia cited it in the context of his memories of his friend).Nishidani (talk) 18:02, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Hey, I wrote some of that article! :P --Monochrome_Monitor 21:29, 23 February 2016 (UTC) well, not the jokes part.

I'm sorry about your mother Nish. :( I'm not that young! I feel old. Can you believe in a few months I'll be 19? Ughhhhh. Simon remembers when I was sixteen! --Monochrome_Monitor 00:58, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Don't feel sorry. She died almost instantly, managing to put a smile on her face just in time, as a last message. A lesson absorbed by my father when his turn came.The genius of that specific joke lies in the delay. It's very deep, and one could say that Eco's second novel Foucault's Pendulum is an extended 509 page (in Italian) gloss on an otherwise culturally specific anecdote, teasing out from it the generic lessons for reading. In other words the 'Jewish' joke's amorously self-mocking ironies conceal a piece of acute wisdom that, mutatis mutandis applies to the most advanced forms of human hermeutic intelligence. So it can't be taken as a satire on a closed community, or religious hair-splitting precisely because we all tend to massively overread, and in doing so, conjure up either self-confirming conspiracies (politically) or deliciously foible-ridden conceptual machines in semiotics (academically), that annul the 'obvious', which however is never obvious (in classical Latin, the 'obvious' is what gets in one's habitual way, something therefore like St.Paul's 'skandalon'/'scandal' to dulled reason).Nishidani (talk) 10:32, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

MM. You might consider adding to the Jewish Humour version this link, which is far more pregnantly lyrically than my quick recall of his speech.Nishidani (talk) 11:10, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Nish can remember a time before I existed MM! At least in this incarnation. Grab every second and love it, use it and grow within it love. Nish, I appreciate the kind words more than I can say. And the joke. I suspect it is based entirely on a real incident. The loss of Umberto Eco is a great blow. His works are a treasure. There is an excellent short interview that was featured in The Forward that I shall send to you, discussing his final work. Yours with a roll up! Simon Irondome (talk) 01:18, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh, the joke was hilarious Nish. It reflects something about human nature. Dogma is the convenient foundation of virtually all knowledge. Having nominal axioms to fall back on makes us feel secure epistemologically. The joke section of the article wasn't my work, it's very... vanilla. I did a few sentences in the lead.--Monochrome_Monitor 12:01, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, if you care to add this, here is the version recounted at the funeral, literally translated. If not, fine.

'In a Jewish hamlet in the vast Tsarist empire, there's a community of ultra-orthodox Jews of impressive distinction. Their rabbi was an outstanding authority on the kabbalah. One day, the rabbi sees one of the members of his congregation arrive at his home pallid and panting, his brow beaded with cold sweat, who says: 'Rabbi, hear me out!' Worried by his appearance, the Rabbi says:'Yankele, sit down. What on earth have you seen, Satan himself?' 'No, it's worse than that.' 'Oh dear, good grief. Well, tell me all about it.' 'Well, Rabbi. I was making breakfast, with a hunk of black bread, plenty of butter, and I was spreading the butter on the bread, with a cup of hot sugared tea and. .' The Rabbi breaks in.'Goodness me, Yankele. You ae being silly, aren't you? You come here and all you have to tell me is about your breakfast?' 'Hang on, Rabbi, just let me finish, please! Well then, I was smacking my lips, looking forward to the bounty when, out of the blue,, my cat leapt up onto the table and caused the slice of bread to fall onto the floor. Now, you go tell me what side of the bread hit the floor?' 'Don't be a moron, Yankele. It's a simple matter of physics. It fell on the buttered side.' 'No, rabbi! It fell on the unbuttered side.'At this point, the rabbi himself also was astonished, and the blood left his face. He said: 'Are you pulling my leg? Look, this is a serious matter, it's a mystical thing.' 'Rabbi, I swear to you that's what happened. And I have witnesses'. 'Go home, Yankele. This is something I have to look more deeply into.' So the Rabbi began to undertake his research, took down books on the Kabbalah, and began to write letters to all of the kabbalists the world over, to those who dwell in the most reclusive depths of Jerusalem, to those of the splendid Jewish community of Prague, to Petersburg and New York, everywhere. Letters were exchanged, responsa give, all pulling apart various conclusions arrived at, so everything had to be re-examined all over again. Three years, for three years, this intense activity by the great rabbis continued. Then at last, one day, Yankele got word that he had been summoned by his Rabbi. He arrives, red in the face, overcome with emotion, and the Rabbi says to him: 'Yankele, take a seat. Listen to me. We've managed it at last. For three full years we have worked for you. The whole world of the Kabbalah has worked on your behalf alone. And finally we have come to a unanimous conclusion- the one and only possible conclusion. My dear Yankele, to explain what happened in your case there is only one answer, one alone. Yankele, you buttered the wrong side of the bread.

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. --Rabenkind (talk) 18:49, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Your edit to Jewish history

I reverted your edit to Jewish history because it copied and pasted text from another Wikipedia article. Doing that violates Wikipedia's licenses, which require attribution to all users who created and altered the content of a page.

As I wrote more than a week ago at Talk:Jews#Culture dump, in order to satisfy relevant copyright and attribution requirements, please comply with WP:Copying within Wikipedia. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 06:24, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

The difference in this case is that I wrote much of that paragraph. But, whatever. --Monochrome_Monitor 06:27, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protection for Turkish Insurgency

This module is always vandalized by Turks. So you can add an Semi-protection ? Kordestani (talk) 02:45, 2 March 2016 (UTC) I don't have the permissions for that, but I can ask. I agree, lots of people blank the page, it's really bad. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:54, 2 March 2016 (UTC) Thanks for reverting that shit. What a pain. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:59, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Requested! :D --Monochrome_Monitor 02:17, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Turkish Insurgency

I did not understand that what is an town is in Bingöl province as conflict. So there is no conflict in Bingöl province and you can remove that ?. Kordestani (talk) 17:43, 3 March 2016 (UTC) I have seen it before. It drives me craaaaaaazy and I can't figure out how to get rid of it. 17:27, 3 March 2016 (UTC) Working on it. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:57, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

I found it Haccilar before than you, but you first edited map :) Kordestani (talk) 19:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Muahaha --Monochrome_Monitor 18:27, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Do you know anything about PKK-held positions in the mountains? They should be marked as "rural areas" @Kordestani:. --Monochrome_Monitor 19:05, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but PKK now not direct part of this conflict. The PKK is waiting for spring and summer. Also PKK now didn't totally controls any mountain in Turkey. But PKK can control mountains in Turkey in the future. PKK fights in rural areas and mountains and PKK's urban branch known as YDG-H and YPS is fights in cities. Kordestani (talk) 20:17, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Aren't they in mountains of the Kurdish region in Iraq? By the way, mind if I ask, are you a northern/southern/western/eastern Kurd? And which Kurdish languages do you speak?--Monochrome_Monitor 19:23, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes PKK's main headquarters in Qandil Mountains of the Kurdish region in Iraq. But PKK is very organized in Iran, Syria, Iraq and Turkey. PKK has different branches in Iran, Syria, Iraq and Turkey. PJAK is the Iranian Kurdistan branch of PKK. YPG is Syrian Kurdistan branch of PKK. YDG-H and YPS is Turkish Kurdistan branch of PKK. I'm from northern Kurdistan(Turkey). I'm an Kurmanji Kurd.. Kurmanji is an branch of Kurdish nation. Kordestani (talk) 20:35, 3 March 2016 (UTC

Well best of luck to you! I hope you get independence. But shhhh I'm supposed to be nuetral. ;)--Monochrome_Monitor 19:55, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Turkish Insurgency

Alacakaya is an district of Elazığ Province but this town located in Diyarbakır Province on this map.. Location of Alacakaya is wrong and should be corrected. Kordestani (talk) 19:20, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

You're right it's in elazig, but I got the coordinates right, so it must be a problem with the image used in the template. [5]--Monochrome_Monitor 18:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

I said I removed Sapata in the edit summary but I didn't... weird. Thanks for catching that! --Monochrome_Monitor 18:30, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, you are right.. There isn't a place called Şapata. Şapata named place is doesn't exist. Kordestani (talk) 19:37, 3 March 2016 (UTC

It's a place in Romania. But not turkey. --Monochrome_Monitor 18:41, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Monochrome Monitor, You can slide it up a the coordinates of these district ? Or put as located in Elazığ province ?.. Or we will remove this Alacakaya district. Kordestani (talk) 23:06, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

The coordinates are right, I don't want to change them. The problem is the map. --Monochrome_Monitor 22:40, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Canaanites

Re this Canaanites 'The Canaanites themselves inhabited the region since the 8th millennium BCE.' That appears to be sourced, but is utter nonsense. A little reflection would tell you it is meaningless, since we cannot use an ethnonym like that to speak of the deep past. It is technically impossible to identify a specific people that far back.

(2) the identification of Israel on the Merneptah stele with Canaanites whoever Canaanites were is theory, not a fact.

(3)and are archeologically attested as early as the mid-third millennium BCE.'(Aubet The Phoenicians and the West p.9. read it. It says no such thing. Second even had this source said that, it would only contradict the earlier 'since the 8th millennium BCE' nonsense.

(4)generally this is all very sneaky. Israel on the Merneptah stele =Canaanite. The Canaanites were materially indistinguishable from the Israelites, the Canaanites were there since the 8th millennium, hence the ancestors of the Jews were in Israel since the 8th millennium BCE. The problem in this snippety approach is, by the same token one can patch up a statement saying, the Phoenicians defined themselves as kan'ani (Canaanites), the Canaanites were interchangeable with the Israel of the Merneptah stele, the Canaanites were there since the the 8millenium BCE, hence the Phoenicians were there since the 8th m illenium BCE. Hilarious. Think about it.Nishidani (talk) 21:12, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Since when is wikipedia not allowed to mention prehistory? I'm not trying to be sneaky Nish, I was just reading the article on Israelites and saw the reference and thought it was relevant. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:16, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Not your fault that the article is stupid. My presence is disliked there, but the article is rife with incoherencies. The point is, no one knows what ethno-cultural' group inhabited prehistoric anywhere. You have only a definition of people in terms of the cultural style, not of ethnic groups. It is epistemologically impossible to ascertain let alone affirm what the article is saying, which means it has been tampered with for an ideological end.Nishidani (talk) 21:23, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

I think your syllogism is an oversimplification. You can say that about tons of other pages, like about the Basques. But I'll revert it. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:34, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

If you say, but what about other pages, I'm likely to think (but not say):'So, if they get away with it on other pages, why can't our page get away with it'). I'm sure you don't think that way, but it is what that kind of argument implies. The syllogism/analogy is correct. The page regarding ancient history is a patchwork stitched up to produce an impression. Really, the history of the Jews, once you start from the ancient diversity, rather than try to mimic a superficially Biblical image of unity, is far, far more interesting that this (suffice it to read the Tanakh closely, with the relevant scholarship at hand). Of one of any number of examples of why those who have reedited back the page to its former shape, just changing a few words, take this:

'Yahweh,[50][51][52][53] one of the Ancient Canaanite national gods.' Well, again, whoever wrote that is just pasting in an ill-read snippet, and knows nothing of the subject. Yahweh in the northern theory may have emerged as an epithet for a Canaanite God, but he is not in that pantheon in that name form. To the contrary, the textual evidence, both Biblical and Egyptian points to an even more interesting association with the extra-Canaanite, Transjordan region of Edom, specifically Se'ir. The early Israelites in all probability (esp if you make them out to be Canaanites), as the -el in Israel indicates, did not worship a Yahweh. That is in Noll's book mentioned in close proximity to this, but Noll is clipped for this, some other author for that, when the whole period cannor be factually told, but only described per hypotheses ordered according to the scholarly consensuses they gain.

By the above, I am not suggesting you try and fix this. My interest here is only to make a methodological point. There is no method in the patchwork - it's a mosaic of nice bits to fit a theory, not a summation that harmonizes the know or probable facts. Anyway, I must catch my nightly movie, esp. since I've run out of beer.Nishidani (talk) 21:17, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Enjoy! --Monochrome_Monitor 21:46, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

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Suspicion

A certain user seems to be reverting your edits on Sikh-related articles, adding back in the "genocide" category. Any idea who the master (if there is one) might be? Thanks, GAB^Hello! 20:10, 19 March 2016 (UTC) Some guy named alpha mp. It's silly how wikipedians with povs always add stuff about their favored group into genocide categories. Like, there's been some absolute bullshit stuff in there. Wikipedia needs to seriously have a decision about whether to follow the mainstream and legal definition of genocide (intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part) or to cave to everyone's special interests. It's ridiculous how in this topic people don't use mainstream definitions because they are "too exclusive". And I'm not being super picky and only including genocides recognized by multiple states or authorities. It's the same with the holocaust too. In our WP:CATEGORYies we offer the conflicting syllogism of: The holocaust is a genocide. Not a genocide atrocity (ie killing of jehovah's witnesses, siege of stalingrad) is part of the holocaust. Therefore not a genocide is a genocide. Actually only jews and roma faced genocide according to the definition. Well, counting the utashe (I would consider them different genocides but some group them together) Serbs too.--Monochrome_Monitor 21:15, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Woah, I just realized they just made an account and all their edits are reversions of my edits. That IS suspicious.--Monochrome_Monitor 21:26, 19 March 2016 (UTC) @GeneralizationsAreBad:

Yeah, I just didn't know who the master was, and I thought you might know. GAB^Hello! 21:32, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Oh, you mean you think it's a sock? --Monochrome_Monitor 21:58, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Consider a move proposal

Hello MM. It looks like you are trying to move Semitic people. Just now you created Talk:Semitic peoples by cut-and-paste. This isn't usually done and may need to be fixed by an admin. It would be better for you to make a proposal for what you want to do, at least at WP:RMTR. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 02:44, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

It was discussed on the talk page so I figured it was fine, but if there's a proper way to do it I apologize for the impropriety. --Monochrome_Monitor 02:47, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

NOT being facetious --Monochrome_Monitor 02:48, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Where was it discussed? I have looked everywhere but cannot see any evidence of consensus for what you did. Oncenawhile (talk) 16:48, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

"Comment - This is going to be an WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, but I only bring it up to rebut the argument that "We don't have an "Indo European people" article either. There is no such "people"." While it may be true that we don't have an Indo European people article (yet), these "Foo peoples"-type articles, where "Foo" is a language group are quite common on WP. We have: Indo-Aryan peoples, Tai peoples, Austronesian peoples, Polynesian peoples, Uralic peoples, Pearic peoples, Finno-Ugric peoples, Samoyedic peoples, Celtic peoples, need I go on? I'm not saying this article, as currently written, is particularly good, but "Semitic peoples" is a valid concept. It just needs to be rewritten with a different focus.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 21:12, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The trick is in the plural -s. It might indeed be possible to write an article about the many different Semitic peoples and their history. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 21:34, 15 December 2015 (UTC)"

"Ah, yes, the plural -s. I'd just assumed this was already at "Semitic peoples". I would have sworn I saw an "s" up there. Funny the way the brain works (or doesn't) sometimes. In any case, it doesn't invalidate the point, it just means the article should be moved to Semitic peoples."--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 22:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

• "If it is unclear, my point and initial proposal is exactly the same as that put forward by Maunus. As for there not being an Indo-European cultures article either, good, there shouldn't be. But there is an article about Proto-Indo-Europeans. FunkMonk (talk) 04:35, 16 December 2015 (UTC)"

--Monochrome_Monitor 16:57, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Removing CFD tag during discussion

Welcome to Wikipedia. Please do not remove Categories for discussion notices from category pages, or remove other people's comments in Categories for discussion debates, as you did with Semitic peoples. Otherwise, it may be difficult to create consensus. If you oppose the deletion, merger, or renaming of a category, please comment at the respective page instead.

It is particularly disturbing that you were warned once,[6] and still did this again.[7]

If you had not participated in the discussion at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2016_January_26#Category:Semitic_peoples, you could have done a WP:Non-admin closure on it, but having disagreed with the proposal, you should have left it to run its course. As it is, removing the CFD tag from the page looks as if you were seeking to avoid drawing attention to the discussion. – Fayenatic London 12:06, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

No, I wasn't trying to avoid discussion. I thought it was silly that the complaint of one user can deface a page like that. Anyway, I don't even remember when I deleted it :/ --Monochrome_Monitor 12:21, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

OCE

If you see the intro at WP:AADD, it makes it clear that the reasoning in it generally applies to deletion-of-content not just deletion of page discussions, and see the first link referred to, a section at WP:AADP, which is written more generally; it's the exact same "this has to be kept because I saw it somewhere else on here" reasoning. I appreciate the self-revert, but really this should probably just be WP:RFCed, since having or not having flag icons at one article isn't going to address the use or non-use of them at the rest. I also have no desire to squabble about it, it's just a community review that needs to be made. I think MOS:ICONS is pretty clear, and there are good reasons to not use flag icons in a case like this, but WP:MILHIST regulars might feel differently; I can't read their minds. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  20:21, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

PS: Sorry, I'm confusing myself; I was thinking of a similar discussion around same time that referred to be AADD and AADP sections at same time. What I meant in this case was AADP's section WP:OTHERCONTENT.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  20:31, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining and being very nice about this. I love your signature :) --Monochrome_Monitor 04:17, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I think you have a consensus! Nice precedent setting. Myself I never minded the flags but didn't care for them either. :/ It is difficult how some are flags of the perpetrating force and others of the place where the atrocity occurred. That's very problematic. --Monochrome_Monitor 05:40, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

WP:AE

Please see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement in a few minutes regarding your recent edits. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:18, 15 April 2016 (UTC)