Talk:Windows 3.1

Selected on Template:March 18 selected anniversaries (may be in HTML comment)

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Seems rather inexact ms tcp/ip was an alternative to Trumpet winsock. User:Ericd

Requirements

Other than the 286-386 requirement, what were the other minimum requirements of the 3.x Windows OS? I've been trying to look into that for comparison purposes. User:SvannahLion

1MB RAM, as I recall, and about 5MB of hard drive. That was it. Ran much better with 4MB. Tannin

For Windows 3.1 my manual says: Microsoft MS-DOS version 3.1 or later. For 386 enhanced mode, a 386 processor and 640 kilobytes of conventional memory, 1 MB of extended memory and 8 megabytes of disk space.

To run Windows 3.1 standard mode: a 286 processor, 640 kilobytes of conventional memory and 256 kilobytes of extended memory and six megabytes of harddisk space.

I would suggest having at least eight MB of free harddrive space for a swapfile.

Windows for Workgroups: 386sx, MS-DOS 3.3. Three megabytes of RAM. 4 MB is recommended. With networking disabled, you need two megabyes. Ten and a half MB of harddisk space is required.

On my computer, my C:\Windows direcotry is about 13.5 MB in size. My C:\DOS directory is about 6 MB. Hope this helps. 68.100.47.35

WfW: the article is correct, the requirement for a 386 only came with version 3.11 (which only boots in extended mode); version 3.10 of WfW, apart being much less used, was able to boot in standard mode (using DOSX as extender, no VXD); of course, then, the computer cannot act as server, only netword client, since VSERVER was a VxD. So WfW 3.10 could boot on a 286 (seen on a 3MB Toshiba laptop). Also see http://support.microsft.com/kb/q126746/ AntoineL 18:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Bob

• Shouldn't there be something about "Microsoft Bob" in this article? DCEdwards1966 06:59, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, a brief mention and a link to Microsoft Bob.

-- UTSRelativity 04:09, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Please Re-write

The seperate mentions of Progman and Winfile should be grouped together and put at the top part of the article. I am not sure but isn't the options bar in Windows 3.0 as well? Missing is the fact that Reversi was not included with WFW 3.11, and also not mentioned is Paintbrush. TCP/IP support was available from Microsoft for WFW 3.11 (I would not call Microsoft third-party here). I am not sure that the article should be split between Windows 3.0 and Windows 3.1x like it is, because we might as well split it up. A mention of this being the first version of Windows with the Windows Registry (though not extensively used; configuration was primarily done with INI files) is appropriate.

-- UTSRelativity 04:38, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Some goofs to fix

Windows 3.1 dropped Reversi, Reversi will run in all later 3.x versions but not in 9x. It's available as a seperate download for post-3.0 Windows versions, as are some wallpaper bitmaps from 3.0 that were dropped. (Oddly, Reversi runs fine in Windows 2000 and XP, I haven't tried it with Me.)

Actually, Reversi was initially supposed to be in Windows 3.1 as well, and it still is in some beta versions of Windows 3.1, especially in build 034. Build 034 also had all the Windows 3.0 bitmaps. These things were probably only dropped from Windows 3.1 during the late beta stage, as build 061d doesn't have them anymore. - OBrasilo 10:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Windows 3.11 (NOT For Workgroups) was the version to introduce 32bit Disk Access. It wasn't terribly useful since the system still had to thunk down to using the BIOS for storage operations. Other than that there wasn't much different from 3.1. This was the final version with Standard Mode for the 80286 CPU.

Actually, Windows 3.1 (NOT for Workgroups) already did have 32-bit Disk Access, in 386 Enhanced mode. NOTE: Windows 3.11 (NOT for Workgroups) only had an updated core, SETUP.EXE, SETUP.INF and some new network drivers - no other things were changed from Windows 3.1. - OBrasilo 10:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Windows For Workgroups 3.11, the final 3.x version, had both 32bit Disk and File access. No special drivers were required to use them with hard drives, if the controller was directly supported by Windows. CD-ROMs and other non-hard drive storage media required 32bit compatable drivers loaded through the DOS CONFIG.SYS and/or AUTOEXEC.BAT A WFWG 3.11 system with 32megs RAM and fully 32bit compliant storage drivers was quite nice and speedy.

Sections are needed on WinG, the advanced graphics display API Microsoft was developing before dropping it and switching to DirectX, and Win32s, the 32bit API command subset that was the fruit of Microsoft's early work on designing a fully 32bit Windows system. Most programs from the early 90's that say they're compatable with Windows 3.1x and 95 are actually Win32s programs, using that add-on to run on 3.x. Microsoft incorporated all the functionality of the Win32s API into Windows 95.

Actually, some programs still came in native Windows 3.1x versions even AFTER Windows 95 was released. Good examples of that were Paint Shop Pro (Version 3.12 was the last native Windows 3.1x version, if I recall correctly) and WinZIP (Version 6.3 was the last native Windows 3.1x version). - OBrasilo 10:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't recall ANY version of Windows 3.x (even NT 3.x) having any native ability to do anything with the right mouse button, not without 3rd party mouse drivers. (FYI, the PROGMAN and WINFILE from NT 4.5 will run in 2000 and XP, with long filename support, and they don't support any right mouse button functionality either.)

Who am I? Just someone with 22 years computer experience who has used every version of DOS from 2.1 through 6.22 and Windows from 3.0 through XP.

Don't know who left this anonymous comment but they have some of their facts wrong. 32bda was in 3.1, not 3.11; the comment about 32b compatible (note spelling) DOS drivers is vague (I know of no such limitation); there was no NT 4.5; & so on. I see no need for most of this. Liam Proven 30 June 2005 18:45 (UTC)

Yes, and I'm someone with almost 14 years computer experience, and I used every version of DOS from 1.25 through 7.10 (of the Chinese league), and Windows from 1.01 to Windows XP SP 2 (and this information is true, it's NOT sarcasm). So there, Mr. Anoynmous "22 years computer experience" Poster, it would be nice if you stopped showing off. - OBrasilo 10:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Windows NT 4.5 Small Business Server and Windows NT 4.5 BackOffice Server. Search Microsoft.com before claiming a product they made doesn't exist! To use a CD-ROM drive with 32bit disk and file access, the DOS driver had to be compatable with Windows taking control to avoid thunking to 16bit when accessing it. I ran into that many times. Fortunately the driver on the Win98SE boot disk works fine in place of most DOS CD-ROM drivers for Win 3.1x.

The product is still Windows NT 4.0. Look below for explanations on why it's so. - OBrasilo 10:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Windows 3.11 needs to be mentioned in the article to differentiate it from Windows For Workgroups 3.11, especially since that version still had Standard Mode and would run on a 286.

• Windows 3.11 (non wfwg) wasn't a product. It was Win3.1 with a patch that wasn't widely available. AFAIK, it was never slipstreamed into retail or OEM channels - msft just began shipping wfwg.

Oh really? How come I have a full disk set of Windows 3.11 (not FWG), and also in SEVERL LANGUAGES, including Thai and Turkish then? - OBrasilo 10:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Same point as OBrasilo: I do have a set of 8 disks, tagged with a famous 2-letter logo, with W3.11 (French release, without the 40/128-bit mess proper of WfW3.11) inside; came with OEM licenses. Also http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q32905/ lists it as a separate product. You are correct it was [b]not[/b] common. AntoineL 18:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

• 4.5 on SBS and BOS are the version numbers of those products, not version numbers for Windows NT. They were NT4 with a suite of other server apps in one box.
• You can sign your comments by typing ~~~~

SchmuckyTheCat 1 July 2005 17:32 (UTC)

Not a product?

Windows 3.11 (non wfwg) was a product, though likely a product not promoted as "new", much like Windows 95B was (to the average user) just quietly introduced with new PCs. I had an original disk set with that version number on the lables AND on the splash screen. It can also be found as a set of disk images on various (usually transitory) "warez" or "abandonware" sites. I have also run into versions with 3.1 on the splash screen but internally* identified as 3.11, so those were probably 3.1 with the 3.11 patch.

More likely it was the other way around –- see screenshot at [1]. --tyomitch 15:21, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

There was also a 3.11 Special Upgrade Edition for Windows 2.x or 3.0.

When using the right API call to get the real version instead of the 3.10 Microsoft used to avoid problems with badly written apps that were hard coded to look only for 3.10 and would see 3.11 as not "3.1 or higher".

Another clue is the different disk lables. Windows 3.11 names are this format; MSWIN3111, MSWIN3112 etc. while WFWG names are WFW311_1, WFW311_2 etc. Microsoft lists the contents of the 3.11 disks http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;114448#appliesto (with the disk names) but not the WFWG 3.11 disks. I dug out a set of WFWG 3.11 disks to find the naming for that version.

So there! ;) Windows (non-Workgroups) was a real, distinct (though not actively marketed/hyped) product and should be mentioned on this Wikipedia page.

It's not a 'product' but rather a 'service pack'. It just updates a few files and changes the Windows version. Mentioned now --tyomitch 15:21, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Something else to mention in the article is the Workgroups For Windows add-on, including which versions of Windows it'd work with and the hardware requirements.

This name only has 746 Google results, and no relevant ones. If you know anything about it, please give me a link or extend the article yourself. --tyomitch 15:21, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

WFW 3.11 Disks

You can search for WFWG 3.11 Disk Directories in Microsoft's Knowledge Base for the file listings on the WFW 3.11 disks.

IP Stack

I've seen a few attempts to change the wording to say that WfWG included a TCP/IP stack. As far as I know (and without writing my resume here, I'd know) it was required to run an add-on package. Maybe MS started shipping that add-on package in the box? Can someone point to authorative information that TCP/IP ever did ship in the retail product? SchmuckyTheCat 00:45, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

• An anon went back to the version that said Wfwg shipped with a stack with a URL to this technet article: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/archive/wfw/3_ch6.mspx. That's a useful article, but note the description of how to get TCP/IP onto the machine? It involves an add-on disk. It's not part of the core product. SchmuckyTheCat 02:30, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

• The article mentions that Wolverine was released in August 1994 [i]which provided limited TCP/IP support in Windows for Workgroups 3.11[/i]. It is correct, but I believe it can be extended a bit: there was previous TCP/IP support from Microsoft (at least as early as 1992, shipped with LanMan 2.1, to provide NetBios over IP), but the products before Wolverine were 16-bit based (so stole precious base memory), while Wolverine was VxD-based; the previous stack is said to BSD-based, and Wolverine is said to be a rewrite. I believe Wolverine should run on other 3.1x versions, but I did not check that: feel free to correct me. At the same moment there was the developement of WinSock, which emerged around that time frame and was the real thing which boosted TCP/IP over Windows. Both Wolverine and the previous 16-bit stack can drive 16-bit winsock.dll. Many of these relics (including Wolverine, as TCP32B.EXE) are still available at ftp://ftp.microsoft.com/bussys/Clients/WFW AntoineL 18:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

MS Support

I have changed the Active State part, beacuse 1997 was the last year MS Supported Windows 3.1.

Aren't 'memory modes' in fact 'CPU modes'?

See Real mode and related articles: they all begin with ' XXX mode is an operating mode of YYY CPUs. ' --tyomitch 15:10, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'm now editing this section. WRT this paragraph: "In either the Standard or the 386 Enhanced modes, Windows 3.1 had a functional limit of 256 MB of memory and in Windows 3.0, it is 16 MB. At the time, most 386 computers had 8 MB RAM or less, so if the memory consumed were to balloon to 256 MB, most of this would be as virtual memory on the hard disk, with massive paging slowdowns." – I don't know where it comes from. I've run WfW 3.11 with 640 MB RAM just for laugh; it takes an edit in system.ini, but runs fine otherwise. I'm removing the whole paragraph unless anyone gives me a hint confirming these limitations. --tyomitch 19:04, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Check the About box of Program Manager. - 65.110.28.180 19:14, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean? I can't get your point. --tyomitch 09:36, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

He means that the 256 MB limitation was in Windows 3.1, and that Windows for Workgroups 3.11 didn't have it anymore. - OBrasilo 10:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Operating System?

I thought the 3.x versions of Microsoft Windows were shells, not operating systems. They required MS-DOS to be able to work.

They were OSes even though they required MS-DOS. Windows provided memory management, multitasking support, and means of inter-process communication: all the tasks an OS typically implements. The underlying MS-DOS was used for just disk access and not much else. --tyomitch 09:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

• They were not actually OSes, because they require an OS to run. Windows 3.x was an operating environment which runs on top of MS-DOS as a graphical user interface shell. This is why MS-DOS is required to use Windows 3.x in the first place. Also, MS-DOS actually provided the memory management, not Windows, in the HIMEM.SYS file (DOS High Memory Management Device Driver). On a final note, in the Windows template (at the bottom of this article), Windows 3.x is in the MS-DOS based section, so this also means this article should call Windows 3.x an operating environment which runs on MS-DOS instead of an operating system. — Wackymacs 20:01, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Operating environment is defined as "GUI front-end"; Windows is far more than a GUI front-end -- see my comment above.

HIMEM.SYS just enables programs to access memory beyond the 1st MB; it's Windows to allocate it to all the running programs and to support virtual memory.

"MS-DOS based" doesn't mean that Windows isn't an OS. It only means that Windows uses portions of MS-DOS code. --tyomitch 21:45, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but Windows 3.x are not "MS-DOS based" - they run ON MS-DOS. Windows 3.x don't use any portions of the MS-DOS code. Also, if you try to run Windows 3.x without HIMEM.SYS loaded, it will complain that HIMEM.SYS is not loaded, and return to the MS-DOS prompt. HIMEM.SYS does allocate the memory for Windows 3.x, then Windows 3.x just allocates parts of the memory, allocated to it, to other programs. And "operating environment" is NOT a GUI front-end - an operating environment is a GUI front-end + kernel, and requires a pre-existing OS to run on. Windows STARTED as Interface Manager, which was GUI front-end, but even at the 1.x stage, it became an operating environment, with programs written specifically for it. - OBrasilo 10:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• This point can be made as specious as one wants! For example, one says that Windows needs DOS (not really MS-DOS, by the way) to run. But at the same time, DOS needs BIOS to perform about anything. And the beauty of the drawing is that Windows (WfW3.11) removes about any dependancy from the BIOS! (Andrew Schulman wrote about 200 pages this about in [i]Unauthorized Windows 95[/i], ISBN:1-56884-169-8). Similarly, Windows 95 is a packaged product which include both MS-DOS 7.x and "Windows" 4.x, both successors of the previous versions. On the other hand, programming VxD was very specific to Windows 3.x (along with Windows/386 2.0x and Windows 9x), about nothing is related to MS-DOS in this area, even if MS-DOS is the "subject of operation". Still another point is that with Windows 3.x, in enhanced mode, you certainly can run several tasks at the same time, something which is generally difficult to achieve with DOS. And Windows 3.x runs in standard mode with the DOSX extender, which is a simple, VCPI-compatible, DPMI server, which can be replaced (althought this is not easy) by a functional similacrum, to the point to run Windows 3.x [i]without[/i] DOS: this is exactly how Win-OS/2 worked.

I believe an operative definition is to consider an OS as a resource manager (that is how OS/360 was designed, and how I was taught OS theory); and Windows 3.x certainly manage resources (like memory, video space, even files when it comes to 32FDA in WfW3.11), and in a very different way from what is happening when using the bare MS-DOS, in real or V86 mode). However, Windows 3.x shares a large part of its programming API, which is probably the reason for the confusion. AntoineL 19:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Split proposal

I think that the article should be split into Windows 3.0 and Windows 3.1 (or Windows 3.1x again, whence it was moved on January 11, 2003), because most links to here mean either of them two, and not both. Also there's comparatively little content now that applies to both of them. Cf. older comments:

This article seems to be more about Windows 3.x than 3.1x specifically. Should it be renamed? --Brion 21:57 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)

I've usually seen 3.x, so that's probably a better name for it. (There was a Windows 3.0, also) -- Wapcaplet

--tyomitch 13:12, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

History from MS, 1.01 through 3.11

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-GB;q32905

Details on 1.01 through 3.11 Standard Edition. 3.11 (NOT For Workgroups) was definately a seperate, complete product. I encountered it on many OEM PCs made between 1993 and 1995.

I'm still hunting for info specific to the Workgroups for Windows add-on package. I saw it in many computer catalogs in the 93 to 95 years, right next to the listings for WFWG 3.11. Anyone have an old Computer Shopper from back then? :)

3.11 12/31/93 Requirements

                    - Same as version 3.1

                   Changes

                    - Certificate of Authenticity
                    - More sophisticated hologram and an MS (3M) sticker
                      on box
                    - An 800 number to call (in the United States &
                      Canada) and check for product legitimacy
                    - Updated drivers
                    - Five updated core files
                    - NetWare support files (from Novell)

Windows 3.2

I corrected the short paragraph on Windows 3.2 and added a screenshot. It's based on wfwg, it includes all the stuff you expect from wfwg like the ms-mail client and networking add-ons (some of that isn't localized either).

I didn't use these two images, but if anyone likes them better than the splash screen they could be swapped out. Image - Program Manager with open groups Image - Program Manager, Help, About. SchmuckyTheCat 15:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me? I have Windows 3.2 on my hard disk and it doesn't have any WFW features. Actually, there has been Simplified Chinese Windows 3.1 released in the 1993, and Windows 3.2 is simply an updated version of that, with some different icons and new and improved IME's (Input Method Editors). Source for this information: my testing of both version, and this article: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;129451 , which as you can see, comes from Microsoft themselves.

I think that the reason why you thought it was based on Windows FWG 3.1 or 3.11 is that you have probably installed Windows 3.2 over Windows FWG 3.1 or 3.11, so of course, the Windows FWG 3.1 or 3.11 additional programs were preserved. I think it's kinda obviuos, since you yourself clearly said that some of the stuff you have in Windows 3.2 is not localized - if it was actually part of Windows 3.2, it would have been localized. - OBrasilo 17:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

My install was not an update. I installed it clean simply to take those screenshots. SchmuckyTheCat 18:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Then please make some screenshots of MS Mail and the Network Add-Ons that are supposed be in Windows 3.2. If you manage to do that, and those features really are there, then maybe what you have is a rare Windows for Workgroups 3.2 edition. - OBrasilo 17:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Three one one

I've read through the above discussion, and I side with SchmuckyTheCat against the man who didn't sign his comments. The bit where he says "Who am I? Just someone with 22 years of computer experience etc" angered me with its naked display of self-righteous narcissism. However, I'm confused by the following text in the article:

Windows 3.11 was not a standalone version of Windows, but rather an update from Windows 3.1, much like modern Windows service packs. For those who did not own Windows 3.1, full disk sets of Windows 3.11 were sold.

It seems to contradict itself. Does it mean to say that "for those who did own Windows 3.1, full disk sets of Windows 3.11 were sold", or does it mean to say that "later editions of Windows 3.1 were bundled with the 3.11 upgrade as an integral component", or something else? I would like to know this so that when I rewrite that paragraph it is not misleading. Lupine Proletariat 10:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Windows 3.11 (non FWG) was a separate product. Of course, there was the update patch, but it didn't update everything. For instance, the full product also had an updated SETUP.EXE file (and until Windows FWG 3.11, SETUP.EXE had both the DOS and the Windows parts of Setup, so it was indeed installed into the Windows directory as well), and some other files as well, including SETUP.INF. If I'm not wrong, Windows 3.11 (non FWG) even had some updated network drivers or something, but I'm not sure. I'll check that when I come back home (should be on Friday). Windows 3.11 (non FWG) was also released in several languages, including Thai and Turkish. - OBrasilo 17:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Janus merge

I support the proposed merger. There does not seem to be enough information (yet) to justify a separate article. -- Seitz 04:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Errr... there is actually a lot of information and even screenshots about Janus. I can provide screenshots of builds 034 and 061d (Final Beta Release), as well as of the DOS portion of the Setup of build 068 (Pre-Release Build), and I can also provide a detailed description of the so-called AARD Detection Code, which has been incorporated into some files in build 061d, and remained until Windows FWG 3.11, when it was finally removed (although it was disabled in the final version of Windows 3.1 and all subsequent Windows 3.1x versions, up to Windows FWG 3.11, but including Windows 3.2).

I can also provide a detailed description of those 3 builds, as well as how they differ among each other, from Windows 3.0, and from the final version of Windows 3.1.

So, summarized, I think that a separate article for Janus is more than justified. - OBrasilo 18:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Huh?

This sentence is extremely unclear: "Pre-NT Windows systems, not only 3.x and earlier but also 95, 98 and ME, have a complex, original, hybrid and not fully documented internal structure that differ across modes, which was, in order of more complexity and more like operating systems and less DOS use, real mode, standard mode, and 386 enhanced mode." Normally, I would probably just re-write the sentence myself, but in this case, I cannot figure out what it is even trying to say. --Miken2005 19:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems the sentence I'm complaining about was edited by 65.110.29.85 on 11 July 2006. Since the version prior to then is clearer, and no other edits have been made since then, I've reverted the article to its previous version. If the bit added by 65.110.29.85 is significant, please re-write it in a clear fashion. --Miken2005 20:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Delay to release of Windows 3.1 due to coders' obsession with Lemmings for the Acorn Archimedes

Can anyone (or does anyone know of anyone) who can personally corroborate this?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lemmings_%28video_game%29#Delay_to_Windows_3.1_development_due_to_programmers.27_obsession_with_Lemmings_for_the_Acorn_Archimedes --Sctb 20:17, 02 August 2006 (UTC)