User talk:Bishonen

This user supports Geogre for the Arbitration Committee

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Removing warnings moods RFAr/V RFAr/Giano AC elections AC Geogre

Ipse dixit

Tipsy dipso. I think we all need a bloody good drink and cheering up, so here's a start. Then we can go ram-page-ing through the wiki Giano

Apparently, I'm Aristotle now. :-( I hate being in front of the column, and now we've got what I consider the reductive gesture of personalizing. "It's the US vs. Saddam Hussein!" "It's the US vs. Manuel Noreiga!" No: issues and ideologies clash, and it's a mug's game to buy into the "mano e mano" myth. So, no, I won't answer personal questions in soundbytes. It's not a soundbyte kind of thing. Geogre 11:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• My mistake. It wasn't me that anyone wanted to talk to. Apparently, that person wanted to accuse his reflection of being mean to him for having the left hand on the right side. <shrug> Geogre 12:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

(This belongs two sections up, but I didn't want it to be missed: I broke Cockney School back out and fleshed it considerably, and it uses that beefcake picture of Leigh Hunt. Geogre 13:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

help

Wassup Bishy?? How've you been? Well, I'm not sure if you remember me but anyway I'm finally back. I was wondering if you help me out in a conflict with User:Miborovsky who threatened me to nominate my userpage for deletion and accuse me violating WP:POINT. Anyway, your help will be greatly appreciated. thanks--Bonafide.hustla 01:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Boney, my man, of course I remember you, who wouldn't? Have you been getting in trouble again, huh? Sorry to say I need an admin break and a general quarrelling break right now, so could you ask someone else, please? And note that I've put a general request to admin watchers of this page below, under the "Are you listening?" heading. Bishonen | talk 21:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC).

Aight, I see. But I just need a big favor from you, you kno El_C who is like an "acquaitance" of yours, he protected my userpage. A mesage left earlier today wasn't replied, so I was wondering if you can unprotect it for me, please? I know you're on admin break and stuff but I'll really appreciate that. --Bonafide.hustla 05:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Boney! Sigh. I see that my dear El C (an acquaintance? how cold that sounds!) protected your page because you kept re-introducing racist material on it. Now, I don't care if your material was "no worse than" whoever's, as you say.[1] You're responsible for your own page, not for other people's. Don't tell me you put that (very offensive) material on it in order to make a point about somebody elses's page, I don't want to hear that. And no, I'm not going to mess with the other person's page. I assume El C had his reasons for not removing that material, and you do not get to "admin shop" between him and me about other people's pages. Please concern yourself with the acceptability of your own page only. Let me ask you this: are you proud of that material? Here's the deal: if you promise to not reintroduce it, nor anything else that's in the least like it, then I'll trust you and unprotect your page. Don't play me, now. Bishonen | talk 08:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC).

Omg, you seriously needa calm down. I feel kinda bad for makin' you feel so pissed off. But anyway enough said, I ain't gonna defend myself now. I will probably request to be block in a short while since there really is no point of me bein' herre, you know. Oh yeah, one last thing, I am NOT admin shopping between El C and you because obviously you two have a very close relationship and frequently contact one another. I asked you because I felt you're prolly the only admin I trust and respect. Anyway, that's all I gotta say.--Bonafide.hustla 00:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, here's what I'm going to do. Since your an admin, can you please block me for a week? (both to fight addiction and because I'm not welcomed) But please make sure you write on the edit summary that it is a self-requested block. Thanks a lot! :)--Certified.Gangsta 11:54, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'd honor your request if I could, but we're not supposed to do self-requested blocks. I'm sorry you feel unwelcome, too—I know you're an ambitious contributor! Bishonen | talk 12:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC).

Opinion needed

Hey, there is a bit of an edit war going on in the external links section of The World Can't Wait and Revolutionary Communist Party, USA. The talk pages of each include the relevant info (although posts keep getting removed, so you may need to look in the history. It seems to me that User:In the Stacks has an axe to grind with Chuck Munson (which appears to be mutual) and as such is refusing to allow any links to Chuck's website infoshop.org. This isn't going anywear, so I thought I'd ask an uninvolved party for their opinion. Ungovernable Force^{Got something to say?} 04:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, ungovernable. Sorry, I can't take any more of that type of stuff right now, I hope somebody else steps into the breech (compare above and below). Bishonen | talk 21:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC).

Well, I weighed in with a tentative opinion on UF's talk. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:55, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Appreciate it, Unmanageable Bunch. Ping? Bishonen | talk 22:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC).

Two more hours or so. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Pong. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 00:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

im Svenska!

Hey, one of "my" (quotes mandatory) articles is now in Swenska. It's Jonathan Wild, and I think it's up for FA there, too. It's a great tonic to the troops to see one's article spread to other languages. Geogre 19:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, currently up for votes as Excellent or Read-Worthy article! There seems to be some mild criticism of the translation--"needs sprucing up". I'll take a look later. If the need is real, I'm sure there'll be plenty of users up for sprucing at sv.wiki. Or ALoan can do it, his Swedish is just fine. Bishonen | talk 21:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC).

"...his Swedish is just fine" - his Swedish what I might ask. (Don't tell Madame ALoan about the au pair... or three). Børk, børk, børk, as we say in Sweden.

I'm sorry to hear that you are stressed, Bishonen - please take it easy. This is all castles in the air: none of it really matters compared to Real People with Real Feelings in Real Life. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you listening?

There is an odd scratching and whimpering at the door to the salon. Is a small puppy outside, in the cold? Did she get lost? Poor little thing, she's been wandering out in the world too long... see her licking her little bruised paws. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:26, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

No, I think what you're hearing is the sound of the hostess trying to get out, actually. Time to send herself for a purdah in the sandbox and her gracious Shitsuit Oilskins for a good dry-clean, I think. But welcome back, little puppy! Come in, take the weight off the paws, the guys will be round shortly for a dish of tay and a natter. Meanwhile, could some of all youse useless admins watching this page take a look at Bonafide Hustla's and Ungovernable's requests above, please? I'm taking an admin break. Bishonen | talk 21:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC).

Taking an admin break - but why? You could be chatering in all sorts of secret places, it must be like being a Ladyfreemason, but without the silly business with the trouserleg and perced nipple Giano 06:20, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh do open the door somebody and let her in - why are your paws bruised? My paws are quite bruised too! Giano 21:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I have been spending an inordinate amount of time in a strange and hostile place - I think some refer to it as the Real World. Why are your paws bruised, poor Giano? KillerChihuahua^?!? 21:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

OMG she's missed all the fun. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Giano. Bishonen | talk 22:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC).

Do you have to be insane to post here or can anybody join in? --GraemeL ^(talk) 22:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you actually not insane? What is that like? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Insanity is just a state of mind. --GraemeL ^(talk) 22:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm in the state of florida, close enough. Dear me, Giano, what a hubbub! I saw the beginnings but it just keeps going, yes? It will take time to read all that mess. Who is Inksplotch? Is Tony reformed? Did anyone listen to David D, who makes some excellent clear points? Did Kelly actually approve the use of "Lying primadonnas" in the evidence section of an Arbcom case, as pasted by Cyde from her This is not Wikipedia blog entry? Stay tuned, sports fans... KillerChihuahua^?!? 22:36, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

My advice: don't read it. It will take you from the insane state of Florida to the state of insanity very quickly. There has been a lot of unexplainable stuff there. The blog being "evidence" was just one of the weirder ones, and no one commented on it amongst the arbitrators. According to user PizzaHut2 (what happened to PizzaHut1, I wonder), Kelly really did give permission. This by corroboration to Cyde's statement that she did. Now, that might make you think that she has a low opinion of what can be evidence or a high opinion of herself, but I take it as just one more example of how far out people can get when they believe themselves instead of the group, or when they define their group only as those who agree in the first place, which is why my alternate text was consistently about narrowcasting in untraceable communications fora. That may sound like a very specialized complaint (and a lot of people who read...quickly, I guess...read it that way), but what I was getting at was the impulse among many people, when they find their desires checked, to pull in the fences and start appealing to smaller groups rather than larger, whether those people are arbitrators deciding to ask only themselves or beaurocrats hiding their process or a group of administrators secreting their opinions and then acting on them in public. No matter who it is, when you see that the disagreement is rational or widespread, it's time to open up more, time to explain more fully, not to close the door and turn off the lights. Apparently, my simple view is construed by some people as a "political" struggle (and I still don't think Wikipedia is a polis that can have politics) or, what I have never thought, much less said, that I think that administrators abuse users. Either I'm really not able to communicate very well at all or some people cannot read or some people simply don't believe that I mean what I say (when I've been pretty consistent for years). Geogre 01:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to avoid it. My avoidance has not been entirely successful, but has been facilitated by the amount of bull... discussion text on the pages of the case. At this point it would require a few days full-time work to get updated. One thing that puzzles me is Kelly Martin's not-a-cow thing. What's that all about? (BTW, Bish, "The Bitch from Hell" sounds cööl, you should register that as a sockpuppet username.) Tupsharru 07:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

It's the censored version, Tups, it was really "bastard bitch from hell", as spoken by a (then) administrator of famous graciousness. Long and unwitty, I think you'll agree. The sock nick I'd really like, "bishzilla", is unfortunately already taken—to mock me, no doubt. BTW, and very much apropos, you might want to look in on your otäcka gubbe that you like so much. He has an, uh, request. I'm not going back there. Bishonen | talk 11:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC).

<AGF>Perhaps the "bastard" bit was actually a reference to the period you specialize in, and the reference to Hell was simply a misunderstanding, with you being Scandinavian and all, you know: Swiss, Norwegian, whatever... some place with mountains.</AGF> As for O.G., I couldn't care at this point, and I'm not going to do anything about it. Tupsharru 20:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"Updating" is not worth the trouble, really. I may say that Bish's performance was examplary throughout, despite personal attacks she's been subjected to. Much of the outrage has been taken to other venues, such as this one. Forget about it. Let's move on and talk about brighter stuff. The ArbCom elections are coming; will you support Bish if she nominates herself (as I sincerely hope she does)? --Ghirla ^-трёп- 08:13, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Ghirla (for the PA support, not so much the raving election lunacy :-P). Being attacked by a stranger apparently quite unaware of the background got to me, I admit. Yes, yes, I'm too touchy as we all know. Having regrouped, I'm back for a sandbox break, hoping the user you mention won't feel it necessary to come round and scoff at the paucity of what I do there. You have caught me in the perfect mood to run for ArbCom! Of course I will, just wait while I eat some broken glass first, 'cos that's fun too. To be serious for a moment, why don't you guys channel your energies into persuading a more eloquent and less cranky candidate to run? Bishonen | talk 11:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC).

I feel quite overwhelmed by your offer, but alas I have too many commitments elsewhere, I think Geogre is the ideal candidate or ALoan (allthough ALoan is too nice for his own good) - I think thoughsomeone with sense and logical reasoning should stand. Now back to that "famous insult" to Bishonen, are we going to allow that to remain unanswered - I wasn't too fod of beoing called a prima-donna either - shall I think up something to call that editor back? Giano 12:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Not me - I don't have enough time to write articles, let alone waste it deciding whether the devil or the deep blue sea is worse. It is the archetypal poisoned chalice, and I would rather eat some of Bish's tasty-sounding glass. I won't wish it on anyone else either - look what happened to poor Filiocht. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, heavens. Last night, I went on the IRC and saw that hordes were complaining about something on RfA. I asked which one they were complaining about, and I wouldn't get an answer. I suppose I need to stay more than 100 yards away from it, in the interests of pretty much everyone, now that I'm magnetic. (As I said, above, when something gets huge discontent, it's time to go wide, not narrow, in the discussion.) Geogre 10:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Giano, you mention someone with "sense and logical reasoning" standing for ArbCom - examine that carefully. It occurs to me that virtually everyone with "sense and logical reasoning" would have enough of those attributes to realize that ArbCom is not a Good Place to Be. It would be lovely if I am proven wrong; however it does seem like a long shot. KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

also: Please make a note that I am the real bitch - female canine = bitch, yes? There is the kinder, gentler me, aka The puppy, and then there is the teeth bared head lowered hackles raised Bitch. Please don't confuse pale imitations such as scaly greeness from Tokyo with the genuine article. On the other hand, I don't have ArbCom in my pocket, although given recent events it looks like the Zilla's pocket may have a hole, or pocket lint, or something. Still, pocket lint serves its purpose, witness Arthur Dent. KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

/Bishzilla scrabbles in her pocket for the little ArbCom. The pocket is empty.[2] Scrabbles some more, finds a small shoe. Eats it nostalgically, sighs. It has a tiny foot in it! She cheers up. Munches.Bishonen | talk 01:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Brevity is the sister of talent?

More to the point and far more interesting, what is the current thought on article length, my current work is becoming longer and longer and the end is nowhere in sight, I have a feeling I may be wandering off subject at times, but for once keep finding more and more fascinating (to me) information on what I thought was an obscure subject - there is not one published biography of her - so I'm having to ref almost every verb to prevent the charges or own research, can a page be over reffed and over long? Giano 08:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Please take my words easy, but I really think that most featured articles in Wikipedia are overlong. People tend to think: the longer the better. Not at all. Wikipedia is not a compendium of human knowledge. It seems to me that the concept of encyclopedia implies that the size of articles is limited. Encyclopaedia article is not expected to contain an exhaustive treatment of every aspect of the subject. It was not without reason that Flaubert and Pushkin omitted the finest pages from Onegin and Bovary. I confess that I never was able to read a featured article until the end in a single sitting (Sicilian Baroque being the only exception). And trust me, I'm not the laziest reader on this site. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 08:38, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Meh. I love monographs, myself. I always tell my charges, when they ask, "How long does this paper have to be," "As long as it needs to be." Discuss the subject fully, but keep interesting extranneous matter out. My version of "needs to be" is longer than another person's and not shorter than much of anyone's. Geogre 11:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

(I am going to bore everyone again with my rhino - please look away now if 500 year old woodcuts scare you.)

Is Dürer's Rhinoceros (the article, not the woodcut or the animal) too long? I'm not sure whether there are many shorter FAs that that. "What is the shortest FA?" would be a good question to ask on WT:FAC... (Giano's Victorian lady is fine and lovely; now, my Victorian lady, that is too long).-- ALoan (Talk) 11:38, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Dürer's Rhinoceros is just the right size. By the way, is there a more general article about the history of rhinos in Europe, along the lines of History of elephants in Europe? --Ghirla ^-трёп- 11:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Did you finish it in one sitting? :)

There is an article in French, but History of rhinoceroses in Europe and List of historical rhinoceroses have been on my redlink list for some time (after a long hiatus, I knocked off some easy ones, like Up-Park Camp, Letter of introduction and a redirect for gibnut yesterday).

Apropos of nothing, compare my article on Michael Pollock (written by mosaicing published newspaper obituaries) with today's obit in The Independent. Some turns of phrase are, um, rather familiar... -- ALoan (Talk) 12:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I thought they wrote people's obits before they die, that way they have a chance to proof read them and add their favourite bits about themselves. All the people I know whi have had them at least three have actually written their own completely. I shall certainly use mine to settle a few old scores - so beware Giano 15:48, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I suspect that the newspapers and other press outlets do have files of obits ready to deploy the day after; on the other hand, obits on some of the more obscure characters (the ones that I like to write up - Johnny Sekka, anyone?) often seem to drip out over the following couple of months, and I suspect that at least some of them are bespoke, written to order after the event. Occasionally, like this chap, you find one of the "big 4" broadsheet newspapers (not that any of them are really "broadsheet" any more) filling a gap where all of the others have already done their bit. And the Guardian and Independent usually give byline credits (the Times and Telegraph rarely do). Tam Dalyell clearly has a lucrative sideline in political obits for the Guardian.

I have suggested it to them before, but the biography wikiproject people really ought to have a team that skims the obits systematically - it is an easy source of content on more-or-less important people (I still have Sven Nykvist and Joe Rosenthal and Walter Hadlee and Raymond Baxter in my "todo" box). -- ALoan (Talk) 18:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, this is nothing new here. Read "International recognition at last! Bigger than barnstar" on the user page of Mikkalai. Being cited by The Independent is way more honorable, I dare say. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 12:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

"Recognition" would be fine, but there is no attribution. Admittedly, I originally lifted the facts from other newspapers, changed to order and the words, and wikified. Perhaps it is my fault, and I have unwittingly steered too close to a common source, but I was surprised at the similarities here. I always add my sources, at least. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

GFDL, man. I know it says you always have to say it came from Wikipedia, but some folks will seriously misunderstand as equating to free information without an author. Geogre 14:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Ouch, Giano, where you say above "are we going to allow that to remain unanswered," I hope you're just giving an example of what an actual coterie/clique would do! As for article length: I like short articles. I think with most FAs, you could write whatever in the final paragraph, because nobody's going to get that far anyway. Maybe that just shows I am the laziest reader on the site. But "my" FAs are too long, every last one of them. They represent desperate cutting and condensing, and they're still too long. The Country Wife might be tolerable, if I remember it right (daren't look). Once I actually came close to tears when I'd just corseted an article to the point of implosion and Geogre immediately added a whole paragraph... a good paragraph, but... As for Dürer's rhino, it's perfect, though I guess I would add, it could be a whisker longer and still be perfect. Bishonen | talk 17:18, 10 October 2006 (UTC).

Well "my" Matthew Brettingham is pretty short too, but I don't think he would qualify as an FA today so that is probably why - I think Mary Seacole is fine, I wonder if she knew my Hannah perhaps we could introduce them. Can't stay here chatting I've decided to write my obituary - while there is still time. I'm leaving Palazzo Splendido to Bishonen together with it's art collection, of young ladies in tasteful poses, ALoan will get "Palermo Publishing" which prints the art collection and supplies magazines worldwide, and Geogre can have the gold plate effect fountain pen given me the pope, my yacht "La benna pericolosa" (such a pretty name) I bequeath to "other people" on condition they all cruise together; the remiander of my fortune goes to Raul on condition that Cecilia is allowed to choose the main page twice a week, Oh yeah Killer, you can have my dog Porsche, and Girla has my free pass for the ferry to Sicilia. Of course this will is liable to change depending on your treatment of me in the future Giano 17:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Giano, your testament appears very Baroque. You probably guessed what it made me think about... that we still don't have the article The Will (Donne poem). You see, the darned project impairs our mode of thinking! --Ghirla ^-трёп- 18:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

• Well I m a a very Baroque sort of person! Giano 18:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I saw a recent biography of Donne in the bookshops - now there is an FA that needs to be written. -- ALoan (Talk) 18:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to avoid single poem articles, except where they're political/cultural turning points, like The Dunciad. The only exception was one I was drafted in for: The Vicar of Bray (song). If we get to do poems, though, you'll never see me on talk pages again, as I'll be a busy, busy litgeek. Geogre 19:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Since we have so many articles about paintings, short stories and songs (and one featured article about a photograph), I don't see why poems should be discriminated against. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 11:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• Oh I like that one, we used to have to sing it when I was at school in England, the Vicar of Bray, I mean - do you know "There is a tavern in the town" that's a jolly good one too, another one was "The Millers lovely daughter", God I'm geting quite nostalgic - Thank you Geogre, when are you going to start these pages? Giano 19:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

PS: I wonder who the Millers were, sound like a nice couple, probably had to leave town, with a daughter like that I expect. Giano 19:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, did you sweet little boys ever use to sing Eskimo Nell? I had an English boyfriend once who knew the whole thing by heart... ick. Bishonen | talk 21:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC).

Nelly had a steamboat/ The steamboat had a bell/ Nellie went to heaven/ The steamboat went to / Hello operator/ Give me number nine/ If you don't connect me, I'll kick you in the/ Behind the refrigerator, there was some broken glass/ Nellie sat upon it and cut up all her/ Ask me no more questions, and I'll tell you no more lies/ If you listen to me, I'll.... I've forgotten any more of it I ever knew. Geogre 15:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

It was "Miss Lucy" in my neighborhood, but the rest is the same. I think I do remember the balance of the jingle, but it will never make Featured Article. Newyorkbrad 15:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Ask me no more questions, I'll tell you no more lies, The boys are in the bathroom, zipping up their Flies are in the meadow, the bees are in the park, Miss Suzie's in the bedroom, Kissing in the DARK DARK DARK!

That was the way it went in my neighborhood. There was a complicated "clap" that went to it, and I still remember how to do it. Senility can be fun... Oh and yes, it was Miss Suzie. KillerChihuahua^?!? 14:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• Is that sung to the tune of "Four and twenty virgins"? (Sorry Slim - no offence, these ones are from Inverness) Giano 21:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

How....adorable. You mealy-mouthed lot obviously never clicked on my link, or I would have had to get you some smelling salts. Bishonen | talk 20:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC).

Pish-posh. Where are the illustrators when you need them? It's just 19th century goatse. Geogre 20:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

My dear most irritating patronising tone I have sung that in three languages on rugby club tours. Do you want to see the picture of me converting against France Well when I say France...I mean...... Giano 20:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

That's real edifying, that is: grown men falling over themselves to prove how boorish they can be in a lady's salon. No contest, you're both very good at it. [/Bishzilla withdraws with delicate shudders, spinning daintily. And don't think she didn't see you on ALoan's page, Giano.]

Look, The Salon! —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I am glad you are feeling better

--Ideogram 03:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Ipse dixit non!

Alas, Jonathan Wild is no longer featured among the French. Oh, well. If the Swedes like him, that will make up for all. Geogre 19:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Google says that "("Pas de sources ni de Biblio, dommage")" means "No sources in the Biblio, damage," where I would have thought it meant "No sources not in the book, demote," but I have a sneaky suspicion that it means, "No inline sources using my favorite scheme." Geogre 11:47, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Google is your friend but don't get too friendly. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 11:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I think "pas...ni..." is a "neither...nor..." construction - no sources nor bibliography. The bibliography was added recently, some time after the nomination for demotion. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Whew! I'm off the hook, at least. I added a sources (Gerald Howson) and even referred a couple of times (Howson) to my sources (Howson and Defoe and David "ot-nay oot-ay right-bay" Nokes). Geogre 13:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

"Dommage" expresses regret, "what a pity". So they did like it. Bishonen | talk 19:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC).

Is he any relation to Oscar because I could work him into my next page if he is? - there is a valid connection Giano 19:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

And I'm pretty sure that dommage can be translated as drat or damm-it. But that's not why I'm here. See below. Regards, Ben Aveling 03:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

"I notified user Filiocht"

Well, it seems that our fine FARC folks are at work some more. This time, it's a Filiocht article to be [[3]]. Geogre 15:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, call the inline citation police. As for the demand for an infobox (which will just repeat the first line of the lead section)... Anyway, I have chopped some of the books and made the fiction section a bit more cursive. It will be FARCed, of course, because it doesn't have enought inline citations. Sigh. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

But the prose is sooooo awful! (Those dirks! They wouldn't know brilliant prose if it bit them in the face.) They can do what they want, but John Dee is, without a question, one of the finest articles on Wikipedia. It's excellent. Geogre 17:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Can anything be done? God I've been here so long, I've a feeling I even voted for it on FAC - how sad is that, or perhaps that was one of Fil's many other brilliant pages, I'll go and check. I suppose this will be one of "our" pages one day, when we are no longer here, condemned to mediocrity by the mediocre - such is life Giano 19:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

We all did, some long time ago. I was a little wet around the ears then, and got a bit snotty about whether it was comprehensive enough. -- ALoan (Talk) 19:29, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh God, and I had a "minor quibble" too, and just look at those names, real blasts from the past, Emsworth is still "sort of" about at least, I often wondered about his age though, just as Mrs G seems to have been 36 for some years now, Emsworth is 17, well if that's true that boy should go far. More to the point how long before The Cantos is on the block? Can't someome stop this madness somehow? Fil should never have placed it here, but published it and made a fortune - and he could have done too! - that work of art should not be allowed to decline............Giano 19:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Guys? Ahem. John Dee isn't by Filiocht, it's by User:PRiis. Filiocht merely nominated it. Nobody notified Pete. Of course you know he's away as well. I've just left him a note (e-mail not enabled). Bishonen | talk 21:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC).

Yes well, we know that of course, and a jolly good editor PRiis was too, we are just having a wallow in nostalgia about dear old Fil - who we all miss, although I'm beginning to think he had the right idea Giano 21:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

We've all had that thought. Paul August is the only one to make good on it, although he tells me he will be back when the month of exile is over. My mistake on PRiis. It's a really strong article, and, at the time, I didn't know how strong. It's since then that I've read more about those weird mathgeeks of the 16th and 17th centuries and seen how devout they were (and weird, but that goes with the mathgeek part). Geogre 00:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I will be ... considering my position ... once MS is finished. -- ALoan (Talk) 01:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

friendly advice

I see your Giano's unblock. The matter is being actively discussed on WP:AN/I with lots of support of the block. It'd be very wise to, at least, meake a comment informing about your decission. -- Drini 23:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Uh... a comment? I've written a fairly elaborate comment on Doc's page. Is anything else required? Bishonen | talk 23:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC).

Well, since other people BEASIDES Doc were commenting on ANI, it's only polite to inform at the admins noticeboard about it. -- Drini 23:51, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I was about to say the very same thing. (I have posted on User talk:Doc glasgow, already, by the way.) -- ALoan (Talk) 23:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Wish you had been paying attention to IRC. Plus I wish you'd taken a moment to discuss unblocking a friend of yours before simply out-of-process doing it. At least post to WP:AN/I that he's unblocked. Because any casual reader will think he's still blocked. Bastiq▼e ^demandez 23:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

IRC is distasteful to me lately, for good reason. I'm surely not obliged to frequent it; many users never do, including admins. Bishonen | talk 00:32, 13 October 2006 (UTC).

It's not out of process to unblock a friend. It's out of process to unblock yourself. I haven't investigated the case otherwise, but it's not the friendship that makes an unblock right or wrong. (Off to AN/I.) Geogre 00:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

IRC is not Wikipedia. Let's get that established. IRC is not Wikipedia, is not mandatory for Wikipedians, is not preferred for Wikipedians, is not helpful for Wikipedians. Secondly, Giano said that the blog was horrible. Well, that's misplaced, but it's not exactly a personal attack. I could say that Slashdot is horrible without attacking Commander Taco. I could say that Wikipedia is terrible without attacking Jimbo Wales. Cool off blocks are not ever, ever, ever successful in their proclaimed intent, and Doc seems to want to replicate the mistakes of Tony Sidaway in that. If you want to block for "civility," then lodge an RfC. Don't just decide without input. Geogre 01:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I am certainly not a friend of Giano (intersected with him only a few times) but I endorse the unblock (also left a warning to Giano) abakharev 01:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Alex. Bishonen | talk 12:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC).

Acceptable behaviour

Bish, Did you mean to give people the impression that the way Giano expressed what he had to say was acceptable? Regards, Ben Aveling 03:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Ben: I wasn't aiming for impressions in that respect: the impression I was after was that it's important a user under arbitration should get to state his unhampered views on the matter being arbitrated. On the evidence page in particular. (Nandesuka has since put it better on ANI: "blocking someone who is currently in the middle of an arbitration case is not the best thing to be doing. If it was, I can promise you that there is at least one person recently active on this same RFArb who I would have been blocking for 3.6 minute stretches every 4 minutes. For fun. Until he cried. But I held off because it's an arbitration case, and because the arbitrators get to determine what is "too far" in that context.") I tried to explain this in my original post to Doc here: "I find it inappropriate to block the nominal focus of an RFAr for evidence added on the evidence page." That must have been unclear, since Doc translated it as being about Giano having enoughtime to respond to the RfAr: "3 hours is not disrupting his ability to respond to the RfAr - and as you say he's 'nominal' so that reason is pure wikilawyering." And met my offer of further explanation with a disinvitation to post on his page to "defend myself", because he was "done" with me. I'm just as well pleased to abide by that, considering the misunderstandings of my reasoning (e. g. by Mackensen: "Excuse me? Is policy in abeyance on the evidence page?"). My fault, I expect--I do try to be clear, but I guess I fail a lot, and this was a complicated issue to disentangle.

Anyway, Ben, you probably didn't just mean to ask for what impression I meant to give people, but also whether I think Giano did express himself acceptably? Yes, I do think so. Compare Rebecca, who put it well: "Giano's response may have been harsh, but the material he was responding to was a downright vile personal attack on him. It was hardly uncalled for."[4]. Tactfully, no; acceptably, yes. What was that foul self-indicting Wikipedia-Review type rant doing in the Evidence section in the first place? Why was the ArbCom's only comment on the person who wrote it, and sanctioned pasting it there, a "Thank you"? Giano had every right to ask. Incidentally, if anything's wikilawyering, it's justifying that blog post being right there in the RFAr evidence (its presence sanctioned by Kelly and implemented by Cyde), by saying it was in some sense "really" posted outside the wiki, so it doesn't count. Bah. Bishonen | talk 12:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC).

Giano didn't only criticise Kelly, but also the arbcom and Jimbo. Regards, Ben Aveling 05:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

No he did not, read it again (I would have thought everyone here could recite it by heart by now) it says "Are we truly to believe the arbcom are so thankful for that, and Jimbo was ever so taken with her". The arbcom having read the evidence are now voting to thank her - so it is a very valid question. Kelly always implied she was a friend of Jimbo's. Good for her, that must be very pleasant for them both. However, I can't imagine Jimbo was particularly impressed by that blog either. If you actually read the blog, not just what was pasted to wiki, there is a lot of other information. I was also commenting on the blog. I don't imagine Jimbo is much impressed by me or many others concerned with whole rotten case either, but it's all a bit late for those concerns now. Now this is actually Bishonen's page, so my further views will be posted on my own page, if I decide to post them that is, because I too am heartily sick of this whole case, it is just a pity reference to that blog was ever permitted as evidence, especially if people do not in fact want to discuss it or hear concerned parties views on it. Giano 08:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Are we truly to believe the arbcom are so thankful for that, and Jimbo was ever so taken with her?

To me, this says 1. either the arbcom's judgement is faulty, or their thanks are insincere; 2. Jimbo has been making decisions with his heart, not his head. I don't know how much truth is contained in the content, but wrapping the whole thing in scatological language means that people don't react to the content, they react to the way it was delivered. Doc glasgow believes that the intent of the post was to hurt people. I think he's wrong, but I can see why he believes that way. Regards, Ben Aveling 21:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the unblock (I was in bed hours before anyone even noticed) it now seems we are not allowed to comment on off-wiki blogs, even those that are nothing but a tissue of lies and insults about wikipedians. Kelly still has her fans, I wonder how many of them saw her "Bitch from Hell" remark on wherever it was and were too frightened of her to even raise an eyebrow. Just for once I would love to be listening to the wittering and twittering on IRC, but alas no time - travelling today - so you won't have to watch out nervously for my edits. Sorry if I've caused you all embarrassment but it needed saying, and as usual it was me that had to open my great mouth. It always amazes me how some people post provocative statements and then become surprised when they provoke. Of course the link and pasting from the blog should never have been allowed to remain there, amazing how quick though a comment against it can be removed - truly amazing - anyway this particular Prima-donna has to pas-de-deux to the aeroport - and you "lying Prima-donnas" and assorted "female dogs" have an encyclopedia to write. Lots of love. See you soon. Giano 08:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll be back with some distinctions, Ben. Giano, since there's a misapprehension there, I think I should point out that "bastard bitch from hell" was Tony Sidaway's summing-up of myself on IRC, not Kelly Martin's. Doesn't affect your main point about lies and insults too much I guess, as there have been amiabilites from her as well, also on the restricted admin channel (which I thought was to be purely used for coordinating admin actions, but I've learned differently). Acceptable behavior? Free pass? You be the judge. Have a safe trip. Bishonen | talk 10:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC).

Hi Giano, I'd still like a response to my question, when you've got time. But I'll chuck in a bonus question while you're here. Do you think you were blocked because of what you said, or because of the way you said it? Regards, Ben Aveling 09:34, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me toss in a thought about the consensus on AN/I. If people had not seen the blog entry on the /Evidence page or not seen the whole sorry state of affairs, then all they would have seen is, apparently, this comment out of nowhere making hash out of another user's hobby. That would be shocking. However, in the context, it was pretty understandable (as I've explained a number of times). The thing is, that was followed by two inappropriate actions that our outside of the realm of interpretation: Doc Glasgow removed the comment without being a clerk, and then Cyde redacted the blog without being a clerk, and all of this when all had been sternly warned by Fred that no one was allowed to remove Tony Sidaway's ... excessive?... threads on the /Workshop. However, the /Evidence page is not just any page, and Doc Glasgow presented it on AN/I, where evidence shows are pretty much never cited. (After all, when some of the trolls have gone ape during their procedures, has anyone quoted those on AN/I and asked people to agree to a block? It's unheard of.) The readers, therefore, would have had to be already familiar and exceptionally attentive to have offered an honest and considered opinion. Geogre 15:11, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

• It was my own fault entirely, I hadn't realised Cyde had pasted it in just for decoration and the Arbs and clerks left it there for purely ornamental purposes, I stupidly thought it was considered bona fide and therefore needed repudiating, I don't know about you Geogre but I failed the audition to be the Sugar Plum Fairy, and one thing I am never accused of is lying, a little direct with the truth perhaps. Besides which I had no idea it was illegal to comment on a non-wiki site that was being economical with the truth. Giano 15:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Acceptable bee

Nectar! El_C 05:34, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Highly acceptable, Commandante! Bishonen | talk 18:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC).

Gingerbread

Home-baked gingerbread for Bish.

Thanks for reverting my talkpage last night! Tupsharru 18:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Yum yum. OG isn't getting any. Bishonen | talk 00:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC).

Hey

Hey again. Good to see you. As you can see, I'm back. :) Not gonna be around much, I'll pop up every few days. Anyway, who is Thewolfstar, and how come they were blocked so quickly? I didn't think Imagination debridee (or whatever the name was) was causing that much trouble. -- infinity0 14:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Hiya, Inf! Nice to see you back, I hope the exams went well. Oh, that wasn't quickly for a Thewolfstar sock; on the conrary, I'd been asked to block as soon as it appeared, and had been holding off and watching. This is a permabanned user who has exhausted the community's patience—one of our few true community bans. Please see Wikipedia:List of banned users and this WP:ANI thread. The edit on Talk:Anarchism that I replied to was a wolfster classic, along with other indications. Incidentally, I don't do CheckUser on the wolf sockfarm any more; she's exhausted CheckUser's patience, too, and they've told me it's too obvious for them. When you know her (as to my cost I do), it certainly is. As she knows, she can appeal a community ban directly to the ArbCom or Jimbo, instead of continually creating these transparent sockpuppets. Best, Bishonen | talk 15:11, 14 October 2006 (UTC).

Plus, abusive administrator bishonen is widely known to be rouge. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 15:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, ok, well, I trust that 20-30 people are right in this matter. Has User:RJII been a problem with sockpuppets? Lots of new editors have popped up whose attitudes are very similar to his, but I haven't had to time to analyse them carefully.

There's something (POV-fanaticism) which I wish more people knew about on wikipedia, but I have no time to actively inform people about it. Do you know where I can post something that a LOT of people will read? -- infinity0 16:18, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

A lot, no. I don't think such a place exists. I'd suggest WP:AN, though that's only good for reaching admins. If you're more after catching the ear of noobs, well.... I don't think it can be done. I suspect RJII has in fact been a sock problem. That's kind of the RJII thing, isn't it? But I don't really know. It's not a voice I have a natural alert for. Well, since it's a collective, who does? *If* RJII is a problem, it's obviously going to be a much more intricate problem than the so-recognizable wolfster who's always in the same place, and always soapboxing uselessly on the talkpage rather than editing. (Why don't you just use your own website for that, Maggie? Is the general reader ever going to look at the talkpage? Think about it.) I can't say it tempts me to become more familiar with RJII. There seem to already be about as many banned/blocked/sanctioned/problem users on my plate as it has room for. Bishonen | talk 00:46, 15 October 2006 (UTC).

Sorry

It was your first comment + the patronizing "Oh goodie" and subsequent from Geogre that led to my little snap. I apologize. It was, as Sandy suggested, meant more as a defence of her than anything else. We can rename the page if the title seems a put-down. It's just a tool to aid with FAR and the title hasn't been changed since it was compiled in Disco King's user space.

"Idosyncratic compared to other FAs" is a better way to put it. The Wiki trend has been to emphasize the point-and-click ahead of academic practices. Your pages seem well-referenced to me. Marskell 16:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

OK. Bishonen | talk 00:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC).

I moved the two articles BTW. Marskell 12:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Bishonen, I just wanted to sincerely apologize again for my haste. Marskell has mentioned before that I was risking burnout, and he's probably right: I was burning the candle at both ends. The oversight happened because of my haste, and because I'm sure Marskell was sensitive to how much work I've been doing. I looked at the refs, saw three, then looked for inotes in edit mode, and neglected to even look at the prose because I was trying to finish my watchlist and pack. Anyway, I see the articles have now been moved off the list. Thanks for making those other editor changes: I had to go through all 400+ articles to build a spreadsheet of Projects and authors to notify if/when they come up at FARC, and it wasn't always clear to me. If you see other changes, can you let me know, because then I can be sure to update my spreadsheet as well? Best, Sandy 03:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Shucks, Sandy. I hope you don't let the work get on top of you, but keep in mind that Wikipedia's supposed to be something you do for fun. You know, like a hobby? That's some impressive spreadsheet you've got. I can certainly understand that it's better any moves or changes to it are done by you--just look at me fumbling about in there at random. Pathetic. Er, I noticed one thing, actually. User:Ganymead's Elizabethan theatre project--under "Theatre"--the three articles listed there, Augustan drama, Colley Cibber, and Restoration comedy, aren't Elizabethan at all--nowhere close--they're 18th century, and I'm pretty sure Ganymead doesn't mention them. He shouldn't, anyway. (He's on wikibreak, I hope he comes back soon, nicest guy you'll ever meet.) Also, incidentally, Augustan drama is mainly by the diligent Geogre, User:NicholasTurnbull who's credited didn't have anything to do with it. Best, Bishonen | talk 03:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC).

Awww, shucks, Bish, you're so sweet! I'm back, at least for a little while. Not sure when I may go gallivanting off again...especially if my search for a new job works out. Greetings to all! *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 20:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hah! I have called teh Ganymead from the vasty deep! I'm brilliant! File:SoleteRayosÑajo.gif Bishonen | talk 20:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC).

I wonder what would happen if you exclaimed "Arise, ye subterranean winds!" a la Prospero...*Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 20:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It's obviously a lot safer not to try that one. Bishonen | talk 09:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

The notifications are just a courtesy; something I'm doing in an effort to cast a wider net, hoping to increase the chances of finding someone interested in working on an article. When I searched the 400+ articles still on the citations list compiled by DiscoKing, I added any relevant Project that I was aware of or could find via the Council Directory, but I also included any WikiProject that showed up in the article's "What links here" (hence, Elizabethan theatre on those articles). I'd rather over than under-notify, on the chance that someone might pitch in and help on an article, so I included even Projects found in the links that didn't make sense. Is it likely anyone reading the Elizabethan theatre project would help provide citations? I'll switch Augustan drama—thanks. I shouldn't be promising to take on yet another task, but as time allows, I will read completely through every nomination as articles come up, so that another John Dee/PRiis won't be missed. The official notification is the talk page FAR template; optimally, FAs are being watched by their original authors so they won't deteriorate, so original authors should be aware even if I miss one. Regards, Sandy 04:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Just getting ready to thank you.

So thanks, already.  :) You are unquestionably one of my favorite users and if I can ever return all the favors, please let me know. All the best, Lucky 6.9 02:46, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

• And even more thanks for blocking that Stevejpayne joker. I was just about to do the same thing.  :) - Lucky 6.9 06:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • You have mail, Lucky. Speaking of jokers, get a load of this well-spoken troll--quite funny, I thought. WP:AAGF is one of my favorite pages. :-) I only wish it were policy. As for our friend "Anal sex in Brazil", don't let him get you down, you did what you could. Best, Bishonen | talk 11:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC).

Boast

Check out my latest image! Unashamed parental boast! Giano 17:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL Personal attacks sem to be becoming easier and easier these days [5] all these sensitive little flowers. Giano 17:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I just saw that removal, that was uninhibitedly strange. Don't tell me that's your number 3? Is the whole family as crazy as you are? Bishonen | talk 18:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC).

No they are not all mine. Giano 19:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, everybody knows you're a good Catholic, what do you expect people to think? Bishonen | talk 02:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC).

Editor Review

Hey, I've recently put myself up for the Editor Review process. With the (seeming) end of the Vaughan-gate mess, I've been back to normal editing for the last while and wanted some outside opinions as to what kind of job I'm doing; if I'm on the right track, if there's anything I can do to improve, etc. If you have some free time, I'd really appreciate it if you could take a look and leave me some feedback! Oh, and I'm not sure what the "bitch from hell" comment is about, but from what I've seen your one of our best editors here! --Chabuk 03:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Chabuk, I'll try to find the time to review, but not sure I'll make it. I've kept away from "Vaughan-gate", which seems an unpalatable mess indeed, so I don't know the ins and outs of it. Bishonen | talk 12:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC).

• Not a problem, we're all busy. Just so you know though, the review itself isn't about "Vaughan-gate" it's more just about my general editing style, since I've tried to move past the other issue. --Chabuk 20:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Tweetie pie

Thanks for the little bird, I just love it! Giano 20:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Cool, glad you like it! Bishonen | talk 21:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC).

I wonder if you would appreciate Bamse the St Bernard? -- ALoan (Talk) 17:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yes. He had a free pass! Bishonen | talk 17:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC).

Now, now.

It will probably be moved to Bamse (dog) or something similarly banal. Bamse seems to be something quite different. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Sadly ALoan, and I hate to tell you this, I fear it will be Bamse the dog, but that page does not mention "free passes" so is not so interesting at all Giano 17:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, bum. I feel a merge coming on. Which way, though... -- ALoan (Talk) 18:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Civility please ALoan! Such language afronts me, you don't want to be banned do you? You know the answer very well it has to be, sadly, the banal choice. Giano 18:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Civility, my arse, as I understand the members of the Royle Family say. I have been given carte blanche to merge, and have seized the initiative by doing so at my article (but perhaps I need a dot after "St"?). Carpe canem, as the motto goes in the House of the Tragic Poet in Pompeii. -- ALoan (Talk) 18:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

If he was a tragic poet, then he might have used hemistichs. Dull, I know, and a hemistich never pushed an enemy sailor into the ocean while bringing the drunken sailors back to their ships, but neither did it die mysteriously. Geogre 18:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

He did comprise four non-metrical feet. Wøøf. -- ALoan (Talk) 19:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

DreamGuy

Hi. I notice that you seem to have a particular interest in concealing the above editor's long history of abuse from the Wikipedia community. This is a particular concern, given that DreamGuy has now returned after being caught out using sockpuppets - and has already started abusing myself and others exactly as he did before. I'd suggest, given recent accusations, that your continued defense of this person is probably something you should look at very very carefully. --Centauri 06:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Got to love it when editors with harassment campaigns make their threats clear and open like this... Of course the only "abuse" is my pointing out his abuse. DreamGuy 06:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

You picked the wrong guy to harrass this time DreamGuy. I won't be intimidated by your histrionics, like all your previous victims. --Centauri 07:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what you're referring to, Centauri. I'm not "defending" DreamGuy, I'm merely enforcing basic decency on Wikipedia. Are you saying DreamGuy's revert of your continuing edits to his userpage amount to him harassing you... ? I sought advice on the admins' irc channel before touching the page, myself, and got 100% spontaneous reactions that it's inappropriate for old adversaries of DGs, with an obviously hostile agenda, to be adding this tag at all. Also that it's unsuitable for anybody to keep re-adding it when the sockpuppetry wasn't even proven. Also that it's in any case wrong for anybody to do it when any puppetry was not a present threat, was not some ongoing outbreak of incessant sock creation, or, in a word, was old. Shall I go on? Your and English Rose's edit summaries to your reversions sometimes refer vaguely to other things about DreamGuy than the Victrix case--some sort of generalized "abuse" (could that be because DG's article edits thwart you?). "A stack of evidence is against DreamGuy and he is aware of it", "do not attempt to conceal this editor's abusive history - particularly as it now continuing from exactly where it left off"--you both can't be referring to the old Victrix story with those statements, can you? There's obviously no "stack of evidence" or any "continuing" about that, so you're both talking about something else. But the tag isn't for something else! In particular, it's not for generalized vengeance against a POV opponent. You are abusing the tag. If I were you, I'd look "very very carefully" at your own actions, and so should English Rose. (Hello, ER, I know you're sure to read this.) So, most especially, should Gene Poole, who is about to get blocked for his reckless accusations pertaining to Gzornenplatz/Wik. If any of you think it's open season on DreamGuy because of the Victrix affair, you're mistaken. Finally I remind you, Centauri, for the nth time, that you can stop saying CheckUser "confirmed" that case. Have you genuinely forgotten the CheckUser finding of "likely" (as opposed to "confirmed"), or are you just shameless? Bishonen | talk 09:12, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

When I read that comment, my blood just boiled. I’ve taken a few minutes to calm down a bit. Right, “There's obviously no "stack of evidence" or any "continuing" about that”, oh yes there isn’t just that him and Victrix edited at exactly the same time, went away for the same periods, used the same language, edited the same articles and reverted so that one could avoid 3RR. You’re right, no "stack of evidence". You carry on defending Mr. DreamGuy for the next few years, cause your very good it. Well done. Englishrose 09:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Bishonen, you can bluster and threaten me all you like, but the fact of the matter is, it is you who are actively defending an editor who treats Wikipedia's community standards with utter contempt. It isn't me who accuses people of being "fucked up" and "psychotic", who blanks whole random sections of article content then describes it as "fucked up spam" in the edit summary, who tells people to seek "psychiatric help" or accuses everyone who disagrees with them of "harrassing" them, or of "impersonating" them. It was - and is DreamGuy. He was doing it six months ago, and he is doing it today. Allow me to spell that for you: T O D A Y. Do you want me to provide you with the links? So, looks to me like you better start "enforcing basic decency rules", rather than just using the phrase as a club to attack me with. You really need to wake up and smell the roses. --Centauri 02:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I for one want you to provide the links from today, yes. Only, if you mean links to him saying the people edit-warring on his page are harrassing him, I won't need those: that's just true. But links to all these other behaviors from today would be good, yeah. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 02:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Favour?

Since taking Sicila to London, she has been rather conspicuous by her sophistication on her return to Sicily, the other goats have begun to notice

Can you do me a favour I am stuck in the wilds on slow and sgahy dial up, with a goat chewing the frayed wire, can you go to [6] then follow the link to the proper site (I can't even begin to download it) then find the photograph of Hannah's studio, and upload it for me (it will be 140 years old so PD etc) I haven't seen it, but know it is there, and it sounds just what I need. I'll love you forever if you do. Giano 06:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Bunchofgrapes, ping, help?

I can't seem to... it's a .pdf, I don't seem able to find any links on it, or save any images from it either. I don't have the latest Adobe Reader. I suppose it's the photo of the studio by Julia Margaret Cannon from 1871, on page 20? Note that there is also a photo portrait of Hannah by JMC, also 1871, also on p. 20, don't you want that as well? Not that I'm able to get either of them. Bunchofgrapes, help! Well, you know, Giano, BoG prolly just went to bed. :-( Bishonen | talk 08:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

BoG is always in bed when he is needed, he must be very lazy spending all this time asleep when we are all up an d about working our butts off, I dodn't know there was another photo, yes I would like it, but I can only download the introductary image and that took two hours, the local goats in the treadmill just won't peddle fast enough, and Sicilia has become too grand for that since she went to London and bough her new Jimmy Chou, must do something about that goat she is getting ideas above her station. Giano 08:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

These? Image:Hannah de Rothschild's studio, Mentmore 1871.jpg & Image:Hannah de Rothschild by Julia Margaret Cameron, 1871.jpg. (Could you please check if I choose the appropriate license, thanks) --Van helsing 08:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Gosh that is brilliant thank you very much - I hope that is the right Hannah, she seems to have changed a lot though she is supposed to be overweight and very plain! Thanks I can get back to work on the oage now. Giano 09:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Well... looking at her biceps, I still wouldn’t want her to get angry at me. --Van helsing 09:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• No I think you are right, compare the two images [7] together, I does appear to be the same woman sperated by a few years. It must have been quite a risque foto by the standards of the day. Giano 11:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Aphra

There is supposed to be something on Swedish radio (P1) about Aphra Behn in a few minutes: [8]. Tupsharru 16:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah. I wasn't home for that. Moa Matthis is all right, I reckon. Did you listen to it? Bishonen | talk 20:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

Sort of - I was doing something else at the same time, and I don't really know enough about AB to have an informed opinion of Moa Matthis's interpretation. (You can listen to the program by downloading the soundfile at the SR website.) Tupsharru 20:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Article on FAC

There is a marvelous article on FAC that all you literary types might enjoy. Check out Natalie Clifford Barney. Simply fascinating article! *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 03:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

!Votes in RFAs

Hi, SOADLuver, welcome to Wikipedia. I see from your contributions list that you recently !voted in no less than 17 RFAs in 50 minutes, offering opinions on the candidates. That seems very quick. Did you find you were able to do a sufficient amount of research on their editing history in that short time? Regards, Bishonen | talk 06:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC).

Haha my votes would be much more spread out but when I was going to vote 2 days ago someone on my IP was blocked preventing me from doing so.I just now got around to placing my votes/opinions on RfA. SOADLuver 06:59, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I see, thanks for explaining. Bishonen | talk 10:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC).

The Rover, line 1, line 2, line 3....

See what you think of what has been done to AB's The Rover (play). Myself, I'm not happy with our trying to take over from MasterPlots, but I don't know if we're heading that way anyhow. Geogre 09:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I know! I saw it, it's on my watchlist, too. No, Im not happy. :-( I think the stub that was--the present intro, at least last time I looked--was fine. But I don't think there's much to be done, unless possibly by someone prepared to expand the page in another way. It's a really difficult thing to complain of tactfully. I tried to figure something when I saw it yesterday (you know how Bishzilla's delicate sensibilities come to fore in these tricky cases) but I had to give up.

The single-play articles of the period are mostly in a poor state anyway, only the 1911 author pages are worse. (/me is ashamed of self, prefers to work among the ice floes and other dangerous elements these days.) If this is just the beginning of a similar plotification of the entire period, though, I guess we'll have to send in Ze Ogre. Or if they get to one of your nice shapely play pages, or, remote contingency, one of the few FAs. Anyway, if you have an idea for an approach to the contributor, I will certainly back you up as best I can. Bishonen | talk 10:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC).

We're in accord and sympathy, then, because I, too, grappled with how to complain tactfully. What was added was legitimate, if... shady. Why summarize a plot, of all things? Not, of course, that I haven't wished for plot synopses with some of the Restoration plays where all the characters have the same name (but with vowel endings sometimes for the girls) and minor chars walk in without motivation to monkey about, but the plotting is more or less the least important thing for the political comedies (and that's all of AB, IMO). There may be critical plot actions that need to be talked about, if they're thematically important, but... Well, I think of what would happen with a plotting of Pasquin.

The way to overcome it, I suppose, is the way that we can overcome the 1911 dumps and (much worse than them) the Short Literary Encyclopedia dumps: overwrite with legitimate expansion. That means the dreary world of deep diving into each play, and that's asking quite a bit from harried people who don't get their grading done on time (me). Geogre 11:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

NOT private webhost?

Is there anything the user is doing? Seriously. I know Tups likes the work, but I see so little interaction with any other article or users that I wonder if it's not a void account, or right on the verge of it. Still, it's been a long time since I've seen such flat sense pumped up so high by big phrases. (And I only liked Catch-22. Did you go to the PO yet?) Geogre 17:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Bish has perhaps been exaggerating my part in this... But he has written a few articles on German writers and other things unrelated to baseball, pokemon, Stargate or Ashlee Simpson. (BTW, Bish, I'm sure Fred Chess would appreciate any comments you may have on this peer review of Swedish literature.) Tupsharru 05:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

He's seemingly committed to ceasing all work while he runs the courtroom he's erected on his talk page. Appropriate use of Wikipedia, or of a user's talk page? No. Less harm done by leaving him there to talk to himself, as opposed to forcing his hand in some other direction? Maybe? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 17:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Harm can only be either action by the aggrieved or by loss of action of the aggrieved. For the former, we all snort in unison. For the latter, what benefit was there? If any, I agree with you. It's just above zero, seems to me, but not quite to a whole number. Geogre 18:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I live at the PO ! Great, good music, thank you so much! 3 times Billy Bragg, wonderful! Bishonen | talk 00:49, 21 October 2006 (UTC) (listening to "Corinna, Corinna" here File:SoleteRayosÑajo.gif )

And ceramics and fob? There are some serious gems in the music, there. Nothing I've gotten recently stands up to Free Wheelin' or Bringing It All Back Home, but how could it? Geogre 02:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there are. :-) It seeems... wrong, somehow, but I'm using the Skype headset to listen to them, it has fine sound quality! (Unlike the laptop speakers, obviously.) I see an Early Onion Pottery artifact, indeed. But that's not a fob, it's a fridge magnet. Just as well, as nobody needs better than the Carolina Blue Basketball keyring that I have. You realize how your memory of it got vague, don't you? Those things were in transit for ten days. That may be a record for us (not a good one). It's real nice that they arrived at last ! Bishonen | talk 02:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC).

I still find my keys by feeling for the basketball. I'm just glad that the grail didn't get shattered like the Merovingian blood line in transit. I had clever bubble wrap for the occasion and some hopes. The BB peters out a bit on disk 2, but disk 1 can't be beat. "You poor take courage/ You rich take care!" You've got the song of our times (again) now: "Masters of War?" We can refresh my memory tomorrow and use the headset for something else. Have you checked your e-mail? Geogre 02:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

And an .avi file of an excellent sniffing performance! Bishonen | talk 02:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC).

• I'll bet you're feeling pretty big and important, now that your last FA has gone FA in a second language. Quel frommage domage, as they say about Johnny Wild in France. Geogre 19:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Hey, Peterborough Chronicle is a widely read Ido article, too. Geogre 20:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Re

Thanks Bishonen! I appreciate the kind words. Do you have any advice about being a newbie admin? Cheers, —Khoikhoi 01:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Be bold! :-) Bishonen | talk 02:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC).

Confer! Geogre 02:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Fear the shiny new buttons! —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 05:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't tempt me! Giano 10:55, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Block Giano! Bishonen | talk 11:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC).

Oh, sure, blocking Giano is a rite of passage for new admins and all, but I say, if you want to be really bold, delete WP:IAR in the spirit of WP:IAR! Geogre 11:31, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Speak softly while driving your Sherman tank. -- ALoan (Talk) 23:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

A Favour

Can you delete this for me Image:NeilPtimrose.jpg I didn't spot the non-valid copyright thing in time before uploading. Thanks Giano 10:55, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Redlinked. Bishonen | talk 11:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC).

Thank you little honey bea Giano 11:48, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Important new page: as one interested in English literature you will be relieved and delighted to know that the author of "The Kisses That Never Were Given" now has a much belated biography on Wikipedia. Yes I have undertaken this major work myself, if you wish to add something stressing the authors importance in the development of literature I would ne very grateful. Giano 12:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

thewolfstar (agian)

i believe wolfy is back at anarchism under the guise of the user "doctor without suspenders". i'm not sure how to properly report shit like this so i figured i would just tell you. piece, Blockader 19:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC) oops, i just read you request not to work at the top of the page so i will take this to someone else. sorry, Blockader 19:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that's ok, blocking the wolfster isn't what I call work. But you'll have to tell me what the indications are, use e-mail if you like. (Avoid teaching her how we identify her.) Best, Bishonen | talk 20:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC).

London history template

Hi, thanks for your message on my talk page. I am indeed responsible for the {{London history}} template, and although it appears to have been on my watchlist, I seem to have completely ignored it ever since I created it. Thanks for bringing the issue to my attention - I've posted a comment on the talk page, and hopefully we can figure out a resolution. Regards, DJR (T) 14:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

In regards to your fire article (it's looking quite nice, BTW), have you seen either of Liza Picard's books Elizabeth's London or Restoration London? While I don't have Restoration London, I have the one on Elizabethan London and it is quite fascinating. Picard attempts to give a perspective of London outside of the usual observances of the upper class. I certainly think that Restoration London might have a great deal on the fire and how life was affected by it. Certainly if you have anything you think I might be able to check on in Elizabeth's London, I am humbly at your service. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 16:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip, I'll take a look. I do have Roy Porter, London: A Social History, also. But I dislike the callous way modern social historians tend to say what a pity it was the horrible suburbs didn't all burn down. "Burning down was what they needed", writes Porter. How hard is it, if you actually try, to imagine what a disaster it was for the poor to lose their tarpaper shacks and be "encouraged" (by Charles II, no less) to leave London and go on the road, with what they could carry? The lack of imagination of the well-fed. I hope your Picard is nicer. Bishonen | talk 22:40, 22 October 2006 (UTC).

OK, I've ordered Restoration London from amazon.co.uk. Bishonen | talk 22:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC).

BTW, thanks for the revert on Mandan. Those damn Welsh tinhats, ugh! *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 23:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I do rather enjoy Picard. She talks about all types of things like streets, building codes, how hospitals operated, sanitation. Marvelously obscure topics that Pepys and Evelyn would have avoided like the Plague (pun intended). I have her book on Georgian London and it's just as marvelous. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 23:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Now that that your big fire is blazing nicely, would you like some thinking man's crumpets to toast on it? -- ALoan (Talk) 19:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm changing my mind about Porter these days. He really was the last committed Enlightenment historian. I have little patience for the "sacks of potatoes" histories, but Porter was too positive. He could be first class, top notch, but he seemed to revert to the old Verities, like enlightenment and the march of science over superstition. Relativism is an ennervating plague, but positivism is intellectual constipation, and no one should have to make such a Hobson's choice. Maybe Pat Rogers is the best we have (despite his telling me, "I'd have done it (Grub Street: A Portrait of a Literary Subculture) better if I had it to do again"). One doesn't have to abandon all standards to count a life for a life, and one doesn't have to put on oiled leather boots to believe that there are better and worse historical developments. Geogre 00:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Damn, but that's fine prose. I hope someone is writing this down. Oh, never mind. Geogre 00:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I read that as "Hobsbawm's Choice" [/me falls into contemplation at the thought.] Bishonen | talk 00:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC).

I like Hobsbawm. I know that people have aimed a Tommy gun at him, but they can't all be Plumbs. Geogre 01:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Elonka

Thank you for participating in my RfA. The nomination was unsuccessful, but I intend to continue with my support of Wikipedia. In the meantime, and I mean this sincerely, I would very much like to find some way that you and I could get past our previous dispute, and be able to work together more harmoniously in the future. If you would like to contact me, on or off wiki, to have a good faith discussion, I am open to it. --Elonka 09:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I honestly don't see how we can work together more harmoniously when we've never worked together at all. We're not interested in the same subjects. If your concern is that I shouldn't oppose your next RFA, I'm afraid that's too soon for me to decide. But I'll certainly take a fresh look when/if it comes round. That's the best I can do. Bishonen | talk 15:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC).

User:Bishzilla

What's the purpose of this other account you just created? Is it a "doppelganger" to prevent impersonation, or will it be used for specialized tasks in the future, or something else? Scobell302 14:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing she's going to use it to destroy Tokyo. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 14:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[/Bishzilla takes the little Bunchofgrapes out of her pocket and destroys him good]I haven't decided yet. The account was originally created by an unknown, with obvious malicious intent, in February 2006; it had made one edit, one that mimicked me, and I indefblocked it. Yesterday a bureaucrat (Taxman) erased the account at my request, and I registered it, my first thought being indeed that I wanted to prevent recreation and further impersonation. But I have some thoughts of using it for special purposes, also. I often use the nick in jest on IRC ((/Bishzilla destroys Tokyo) and people who hang on IRC sometimes address me by it. Maybe I'll use it for lighter types of editing. Is there a problem? Bishonen | talk 15:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC).

One of my pages User:Giano/Images I shall want of things I want has disapeared - any ideas where it had gone? Giano 18:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

User talk:Giano/Images I shall want? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Well that's a daft place to put things! Giano 18:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Adulation

Love ya, Bish! Bo-Lingua 18:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

File:SoleteRayosÑajo.gif Bishonen | talk 22:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC).

The Relapse

May I be the first to congratulate you here? Newyorkbrad 00:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, right, I wasn't aware till it got mentioned on IRC just now. Thank you! Bishonen | talk 00:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC).

Congrats, Bishonen. It's been a while since I dropped in, and I'm glad to see that you're still contributing great things! Take care. — David Remahl 00:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow, GREAT to see you, David! Bishonen | talk 01:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC).

Bishonen, don't let time on the main page equal constant worry. I'm going to bet that, like Orrmulum, you invite fewer vandals than usual. (And I'm still thinking of beefing up Charlotte Charke, despite her objections.) Geogre 02:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Most flattering, Geogre. No need to tell me nobody wants to read it, I'm aware of it. Yes, I expect there will be fewer vandals. Bishonen | talk 11:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC).

That means you think I'm insulting myself, too, for working on something nobody wants to read? I don't think I said or implied that. I don't worry if vandals don't feel like reading it. Once that segment of "nobody" is cut off, we're left with the people who don't want to read anything they haven't heard of, and I don't mourn them, either, and the people who are intellectually curious. They do want to read it, but they're not going to scribble in crayon on it. You had to work to make that an insult, I think. It's a great, scholarly article, and we should take pride in not writing about "Lost (TV series)" and "24 (TV series)" and thus being vandal magnets. What is and is not a vandal magnet, beyond pop topics, is having a title that is prone to dirty jokes. The Relapse is safe, but The Country Life wasn't. Finally, if it sounds like a subject they have to take in school, they'll scribble, so "Physics" or "Algebra" would get big scribbles. Geogre 11:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Er, I wouldn't have assumed nobody was interested in Ormulum, except that you've told me that was the case, you know. Anyway, the Relapse is getting vandalised plenty, so sucks to you! Going out, bbl. Bishonen | talk 11:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC).

Still, either I was insulting myself, or I wasn't insulting you. I looked at the history of Relapse, and it's getting salt and vinegar from the bored schoolboys, which is plenty. The article on Orrmulum is more exciting than the Orrmulum itself, but that's my point: our articles are interesting, but the vandals get out their spraypaint when there is a word they like or a pop thing they have recently sucked. Geogre 12:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hah! See, people are interesting in reading it! Silly Bishy, you write too well for people to ignore your articles. ALERT ALERT ALERT Bishonen was wrong about something! Gee, this is unusual - we should have an annual party - the anniversary of the BwasW incident. I'll bring pate maison, what is everyone else bringing? KillerChihuahua^?!? 11:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Argh? Killah confused! [/Bishzilla tries in vain to catch the colibri. Is frustrated.]. That Bishonen plenty get stuff wrong, it's teh noble Bishzilla who knows all! Now proud separate account! You, Killah, you bringing info about the Great Fire and the Great Plague, arrgghhh? [/Bishzilla thumps chest perfunctorily.] Bishzilla 22:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC) .

Darling 'zilla, I have not been to the library. I have been battling bronchitis and - get this - I was bitten by a Brown recluse which is, I have to say, not recommended. I have other excuses, do you want them too? KillerChihuahua^?!? 22:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow, your connection does suck! Bishonen | talk 22:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC).

• If you were bitten by a brown recluse, you have my sympathies. It's a long, agonizing process, and I hope you spotted it very quickly and got treated. Horrible, horrible bite -- and far too few people know just how deadly it is. (For you Europeans: the brown recluse is one of the reasons your ancestors thought a trip to America was a death sentence or a punishment worse than the stocks. It is one of the most agonizing and dangerous insects in the world.) Geogre 02:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I was, and thank you. I have a mild bite, though, so it hasn't been that bad. I had Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever once and that was much worse. I don't recommend either, even for serious thrill seekers. I did seek medical diagnosis and received that, which is how I know what it is, but there really isn't much they can do for treatment (I was told basic care and to watch for infection and necrosis.) KillerChihuahua^?!? 10:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• I've known two people who ended up with highly necrotic bites. I see from the article that those are rare, that most bites just give a boo-boo. I'm glad that's the case. The bad bites are very bad. Geogre 12:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Coo - look what happens when I take a few days off! Congratulations! A lovely article. -- ALoan (Talk) 09:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! About the fire thing, I'm beginning to wonder if my posts on Talk:Great Fire of London are actually invisible to the human eye. Nobody's picked up the sixpence under the rug in the sandbox article, either, but that I wouldn't expect. ;-) Bishonen | talk 16:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC).

Sybil Grant

Hi. Why did you delete this Bish? It is not that bad, and is better than the majority of the stuff on DYK. Please reconsider.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Why did I..? Seriously, Blnguyen. You do realize you led the wikicops straight to it? Did you see what happened to it? It's a mess, but I'll leave it to G to fix up, if he hasn't lost interest. I didn't delete it, I userfied it. I'm sorry I had to leave a redlink on the Main Page, but I see somebody took care of it. Bishonen | talk 01:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC).

Ghirlandajo nominated it for DYK on the 23rd, if that's useful info. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I actually regret my nomination, although DYK guys endorsed it.[9] [10] There had been moaning on DYK that we don't have good "hooks" and most nominations fail to attract the attention of casual readers, so I thought that this hook would divert the attention of many. It never occured to me that our readers are so humourless. I recommend to do nothing for a couple of hours while it is on Main Page. After DYK is updated next time, a massive revert to the last version by Giano will be in order. This is a standard practice with DYK entries. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 07:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, leave it as it is, we needed a good laugh after the events of recent weeks, I just regret I shall never be able to expand on my theory of Bolshevism and Lenin being unfluenced by a pome written by Lady Sybil! The world is a poorer place this morning, but I shall be writing an enlightening but serious artcile on the subject of Lady Sybil later today!!! Giano 07:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

What a to do. It was just too plausible. -- ALoan (Talk) 09:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Sybil Grant - explanation

After you had initially deleted the Sybil Grant article from mainspace, someone re-created a page with that title, but the only contents were a couple of irrelevant links (to a radio station, I believe). I posted to let you know. But someone else quickly tagged it as a contentless article and it was deleted again, rendering my comment warning you about this development moot. Newyorkbrad 02:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Poor Sybil! Poor Haggis where has he gone, I would have liked to have seen him on the main page too, along with JV, but how nice to see two great works there together. Some people just have no idea that a page about one of the greatest of British eccentrics should be barking mad too. Well done with the Relapse! Some of those talk page comments are funny though, chortle chortl Giano 07:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The things I do for this encyclopedia - This is the real Lady Sybil Giano 09:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know why Lady Blanche's image Image:Addlebook.gif won't appear on her page, I'm going to give up on mad old ladies and return to architecture, at least I can understand what is going on there! Giano 22:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

It shows up for me. It is probably just a problem with the image servers in your part of the world; there has been a lot of that going on lately. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh well that is OK if someone I can see it, I still can't - just have to be patient then, Giano 07:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Bird unleashed

Wow, look at the colibri flying all over the page, amazing! Thank you DVD R W ! Bishonen | talk 17:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC).

Np, I'm glad you got some new refs for The Relapse while it was on the mainpage and not just the usual defacement. I think you should also mention how Mr. Vanbrugh was more European than English ;-) DVD+ R/W 17:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• On my browser (Mozilla) and firewall stuff, the boids just pose, wings at apex. Only when I go to work and use an Apple do they flap. For me, they both pose like hood ornaments. :-) Geogre 12:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Anarchism

Honestly, I gave up on that mess a month ago. I really think it desperately needs an arbcom case along with "super" powers for admins involved in it, i.e. similar to what a few admins had on NLP for awhile. --Woohookitty^(meow) 04:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for supporting my RfA

Thank you for supporting my RfA that I have passed with 73/2/1.--Jusjih 10:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Just a hello

Hello Bishonen, hadn't interacted with you in awhile so I thought I'd just drop a nice hello. Hope all's well in the neck of your editing woods. :-) (→Netscott) 19:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Scott, sure, how's yourself? Bishonen | talk 19:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC).

All's well thanks... been voyaging quite a bit so I've managed to break away from the 'pedia which has done me some good. I think I was taking things a bit too seriously which was making me feel like climbing the Reichstag building dressed as Spider-Man... but things are smoother now. See you around. :-) (→Netscott) 20:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

"Bah!"

FYI, I think the standard form of those arbitration summaries is to include only the "remedies" that passed, not the "principles" and "findings" and not proposals that weren't adopted. I agree the formal summary doesn't address the substance of the issues that were or weren't resolved, but it wasn't an arbitrary choice of what to include by the person who did the closing, either. I'm just glad the case is over with; but then again, I was never in favor of starting it. Regards, Newyorkbrad 16:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

(P.S. Feel free to get this post off your page too, if you like; I won't be offended.)

• On the subject of "bah!," there I go trying to be a good citizen by telling the AN folks (where the brouhoho occurred) not to start a new hash on the subject, that everyone was as mollified as they could be by this case in its scope and that, if they thought there was more to say, to do it from a fresh starting point, and Doc Glasgow has some sort of internal explosion and accuses me of trying to get the last word! Holy cow, but that's right on the edge of totally flipping nuts. Here I thought that more people against the repromotion of Carnildo were disgruntled by the case than those for it, but Doc's tantrum and insults show that he's at least so upset that he's going to read every comment as being somehow persecution. This is just great. Geogre 18:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't agree with Doc's comments either, but let's let that one go, shall we? The alternative is a reprise of the last episode of Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman, I'm afraid. Newyorkbrad 18:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Fine, but it was childish and troglodytic. Kinders, kinders! Geogre 18:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Brad don't think I don't truly appreciate your attempts at peace-making, but you seem to be completely ignorant of how strongly people feel about this matter. I'm sure in time we shall all get over it, but it won't be for quite a long time. I have a lot yet still to say on the matter, and even more that I am not allowed to say. Rest assured sooner or later though I will be saying it. However your soothing tones are starting to irritate, which I'm sure is not your intention. When I am good and ready I shall sue for peace, but it will be a peace on my terms, and my terms alone, and no placatory speeches from you or anyone will change that. Giano 21:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Please don't disrupt the personal attack notice board

Last week you removed an NPA message I placed on User:Calton's talk page. That notice was required by the instructions on WP:PAIN. WP:PAIN requires "strict adherence" to its instructions. I referenced the related WP:PAIN notice in the edit summary When you removed the notice -- which was not the same as the earlier notice removed by Calton, despite your statement that it was -- you disrupted the WP:PAIN process, making it appear that I had not complied with the instructions, and making it harder for an uninvolved admin to review the complaint. VivianDarkbloom 19:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Bish, we're all tired of your incessant disruption. :-) Vivian, the PAIN process can be a bit of a ... well, pain, and has a tendency to make matters worse in my experience. Templates shouldn't be left for regular editors as a rule. A personal note is always a better idea, or no note at all if it's NPA related, unless the situation is serious. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)Bah humbug. Common sense is not disruptive, but userpage harassment is. Don't post on userpages after the user has shown they don't want you to. Hint: the user removing the message once is a way of showing they don't want you to. Edit warring on other people's userpages is inappropriate, against Wikipedia policy, and a blocking offense, so don't do it. And no, if an admin wants to review your complaint against Calton, your having put that message on his page twice (yeah, that'll make a good impression) is perfectly clear from the History. Furthermore, the VivianDarkbloom account is a sock, I bet they'll like that part, too. Bishonen | talk 20:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC).

To my guests

File:Flame-04-june.gif

The "fire in da hole" article is now live, does anybody feel like reviewing, commenting, editing, etc? Do you think it's ready for FAC? Any comments at all? I had a lot of material and some difficulty selecting what to include. So if your favorite aspect or conundrum is missing, please add it or let me know what it is (I have some useful library books right here on my desk). What..? Oh, yes, yes, I do know about Peer review, but last time i listed something on it, I didn't get a single comment. :-( Look, I'll sweeten the deal: there's a sixpence hidden under one of the rugs, whoever finds it gets to keep it! Bishonen | talk 23:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC).

Bravo! A few concerns, though. Your maps of the fire are lovely but I'd like to see some labels. I can figure out what most landmarks are (The Thames, London Bridge, The Tower, the Wall) but nothing is marked. What is the black line just above London Bridge? What are the street names? What districts are included in this map? What is the building just above the city wall? I presume the blue cross is St. Paul's? I think labels would make the maps much more effective.

Besides the map, I have nary a problem with the text. It's as beautiful and learned as I always expect from you. Perhaps a quick side-project you might consider: a list of the major buildings (churches, etc) destroyed in the fire. I've always had a strange fascination with the churches of London (where else can you find such wonderful names as St. Clement Danes, St Anne's Limehouse and All Hallows Barking?). I'm not sure your feeling on such lists, but I think it would make a nice related item to this article. I'd certainly be willing to help out.

Indeed, the usefullness of Peer Review has faded. I believe, though, that with the quality of this article, the peer review could be done in FAC. Cheers! *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 02:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Ganymead, thanks very much—I was just returning here, in fact, in order to mention that the cute maps are by my good friends Wenceslas Hollar, Christopher Wren, and Bunchofgrapes—I hope one or more of them will address and discuss your concerns ! I thought the maps were so clear—but I'm bound to be a little crazy from reading too much about it. Oh, and All Hallows-by-the-Tower, is it? Surely that's got to be the red-linked "Barking Church", that Pepys climbed on the Wednesday? [/Me runs to bluelink it.] Thanks! But the churches—I'm ashamed to admit it, but I've taken an unreasoning dislike to the churches—they're the only things that get properly documented, you see, at the expense of everything else. My only really scholarly source, Reddaway, complains that the secular rebuilding is all a blur, because everybody's too busy documenting every last brick of the churches. In other words, they can be listed all right, but... I don't like them enough. :-( Plus it would make the article longer still. Or you mean a separate list article? Now that's an idea!

So, you read the whole thing and didn't see anything odd, huh? Didn't find the sixpence...? Well, it's, unfairly, more readily recognizable to somebody who's been around longer, I guess. ALoan, Geogre, Giano, if you're out of pocket money, go read! Bishonen | talk 02:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC).

Yes, I meant the list should be separate. I think the maps are clear to me (I know London fairly well) but I think someone who hasn't had a chance to visit or read up on the city, like ourselves, might find them uninformative. I will take a closer look at the article. I could use sixpence. :-) *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 03:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Ganymead, the little day-by-day maps are deliberately label-free in an attempt to reduce visual clutter, the idea being that one would refer to that big first map in the article for bearings. Most of the things you ask about are labelled in the big one I think, with the exception of street names. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Now I feel like a fool. Oh well, the map at the top answers all my questions. I noticed it, but I don't think it registered. Marvelous work, BOG, I especially love that it is overlaid over an older map. Very nice! *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 16:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

For someone who doesn't know what a sixpence is, I'll make my best guess. Towards the end of Great_Fire_of_London#Sunday.2C_September_2 is it quoted accurately that Samuel Pepys wrote, "simplicity [=the stupidity] of my Lord Mayor", the sixpence being [=the stupidity]? The article is one of the best, and at the moment I really like the panorama box. Did Bunchofgrapes make that? DVD+ R/W 03:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I assume we are looking for some flaw. After the guess above, another thing that I wonder about is "connivancy [that is, the corruption]" towards the end of Great_Fire_of_London#Fire_hazards_in_the_City. Are both these braketed remarks your notes within the quotes? Not having the books before me I have to ask. DVD+ R/W 04:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't know what a sixpence is? The dear old tanner? You flabbergast me. When I were a young 'un, me and my fourteen twenty-three sixty-eight brothers and sisters would get a sixpence between us to buy Christmas presents with (chorus: "Christmas presents? You were lucky!"). Yes, those are my bracketed explanations, I thought the 17th-century usage needed glossing—"simple" did mean stupid, typical personal attack. Do you think the explanations are not clear? Would footnotes be better, or am I meddling unnecessarily altogether? Bunchofgrapes did indeed, he's a clever canny lad. Bishonen | talk 05:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC).

This is a truly superlative piece of work, Bishonen: well-organized, well-written, well-sourced, well-illustrated, and well-ready for the main page in short order I do expect. I will take another pass through tomorrow for copy-edits but I don't expect to find much; I will seek the 6d as well. A tour-de-force; congratulations. Newyorkbrad 06:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations! Let's celebrate with some barbecue:

• 
• 
• 
• 

I am sorry that the steaks and sausages haven't yet learned how to rotate or flap their wings... (Hm, I'm hungry. Have to get breakfast.) Tupsharru 08:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Gee, thanks guys, you're shy-makingly kind! [/Bishzilla blushes in embarrassment, then quickly cheers up.] Tups, that's not the WP:BULL on the grill, is it? Looks suspiciously like it! Bishonen | talk 11:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC).

Looks good, Bishonen. I did a lot of picky stuff, which you are free to remove at discretion and no hurt feelings, and I didn't add anything more than four words. Of course the triumphalist narrative of the Fire always centers on the rebuilding in modern versions, and this article leaves out all of the rebuilding. That's good, as the rebuilding is not the fire, and the fire is not the rebuilding, and we're all following Annus Mirabilis by trying to find a palace of silver in the dark smoke clouds. Of course, it does beg for an article on "Rebuilding of London," if there were a stable term for it. It's ready to be an FA, whatever FAC says. Geogre 12:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and for the sixpence, I'm sixpence, none the richer. (Monetary conversions, dear.) Geogre 12:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the fixes, Geogre, and for the "triumphalism" comment. I think that was exactly the narrative I was trying to avoid, though I didn't make it clear to myself (until you did). I hate those "it was all for the best" histories—my sources are all like that, naturally. Almost as much as I hate all their spotlight on Charles and James and the wonderful way they rose to the occasion and impressed their humble people by getting soot on their very own royal frilly white shirts. We skipped that, haha. [/Bishzilla is such a commie! Grrrrr!] Yes, it calls out for an article on the rebuilding, and also the social aftermath—not so much is known, of course, but it's a fascinating subject IMHO. Shortage of labour, prices and supplies, profiteering, all that. Well, OK... so I'm the only person on the planet that that sounds interesting to. Don't you agree, though, that the final section as it presently stands is too impoverished? I shall have to do something, for about ten obvious things are sort of missing. Oh boredom, more reading. :-( Bishonen | talk 18:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC).

From a historian's point of view, "long view" is one of the primary options, and teleology is almost impossible to shear away, so it's a legitimate way of looking at things, and it's further endorsed by Dryden, but it's remarkable that the "march of progress" narrative is virtually the only one that has been written when it comes to the fire. Forget the enlightenment itself: the present day's image of itself is very deeply invested in a progressivist view of the late 17th - 18th centuries. We keep telling the story of the banishing of superstition because we think we're engaged in the same project, and therefore telling a story other than "clearing away the poor people for a glorious London to come" is to imperil our ongoing narrative of urbanism and progress and expansion. It is also, paradoxically, a very necessary view for radical capitalism: the market will provide by building up hovels and then burning them down.

On the other hand, I think the stories of Chuck and Jim are more important. It's not because they got sooty, but because they asserted centralism and federalism against devolved power. One of the stories of the period was the limitations of democracy, the mob versus the elites, and the attempted justifications of birth. If we cut away that last part only, we get much more interesting things about the first two. Also, this is pre-syphilitic James (or early syphilitic James), and he was doing a job. That part alone would be surprising to contemporary Brits. (His pre-coronation work is actually interesting, as a good bit was "me-too" to Charles, but a lot of it was also, "I'm gonna get rich," and he had amassed a pretty hefty fortune of his own before having to become the Old Pretender.)

I don't think the first section is all that needy, although there is a pile that we can add. The way that London grew without official growth is important to the debility of the various fire precincts, as well as to the debility of the policing. Because it grew over autonomous areas, and because it grew without statutory extension, it ended up with ancient practices mixing with planned maintenance. The story you read in The Mint is indicative of everything outside the wall. London City had a system, but each direction outside the wall had a different system, or no system. Also, there is more to say about tenements and the braces they had to use to keep from falling down.

When it comes to the rebuilding, we'd need a name for it, and I mean a single name. Also, one wonders now whether the fire isn't one of the reasons that Moorfields because the proverbial home of highwaymen, whores, and witches 30 years later. One wonders if the dispossessed who didn't move on became progenitors of a race of poor and thieving and desperate persons. Geogre 18:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it is very good inded, and should go straight to FAC immediatly, the only thing that bothers me is that there was the destrucion of the " opulent bathroom fittings shops" what a loss that must hve been! Giano 16:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed! Of all the tragedies during those four days, that was one that sent Restoration culture and sophistication plummeting. Take the sixpence, you've earned it, and about time, too. Bishonen | talk 16:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC).

Where ther is money I am like a homing pigeon! There is just one eency weency but rather gruesome little detail I don't agree with "the heat of the fire would have cremated all victims, leaving no recognizable human remains" when I was new to my RL career I had to deal with a certain criminal - No you don't want to go there - just trust me - and I can tell you categorically that the heat from the fire of wooden houses would not be sufficient for that, tinder dry and pushed by wind, it would have been an intense heat, but in a specific spot very quick, not long enough - something, quite a lot actually would have remained. So do you mean "recognizable human remains" as in not recognizable to their loved ones (God I hate that common expression) or not recognizable as human remains, the former is likely the latter impossible. Finally on a more cheery note, the lead image shows the Tower of London clearly on the right, just as it is in BoG's images perhaps it would clarify things for those who find it hard to read maps if some mention of that similarity between maps and image was made. Giano 18:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

This was supposed to be a firestorm, though—hotter than your regular wood fire. See the page Firestorm: "The greater draft of a firestorm draws in greater quantities of oxygen which significantly increases combustion, thereby also substantially increasing the production of heat. The intense heat of a firestorm manifests largely as radiated heat (infrared radiation) which ignites flammable material at a distance ahead of the fire itself." Nothing about how hot, but hotter. I'd better check what Hanson says again, it's been awhile since I read the "cremated" comment. Quite possibly I made it up. Thanks for that horrible glimpse of RL, it makes me more determined than ever to never visit the place. Reading maps? But everybody can read.... oh, all right, I see what you mean. I've added a bit to the image caption. Do you think it'll help? Please revise if you can think of a more pedagogical way of putting it. Bishonen | talk 19:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC).

Caption is now fine. To have the heat you suggest the fire would have to have surrounded an unburnt area, as it is from what I understand from the article the fire crept in directions but never surrouneded the city, it si the ring of fire that causes a vortex Giano 20:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Anarcho-capitalism

Hi there. User:Doctors without suspenders (i.e., TheWolfstar/Maggie/Lingeron/WhiskeyRebellion/etc) and User:Anarcho-capitalism keep reverting my insertion of a {{NPOV}} banner, claiming that "There's no good reason for these tags to be here" and "Wgee had no legitimate complaints", respectively. [11][12]. This type of behaviour is a hall-mark of a troll. I've explained to them that they do not have the prerogative do decide whether or not the neutrality of the article is disputed, nor do my reasons for inserting the tag have to comply with their definitions of "good" and "legitimate". This was to no avail, as you might expect. So, since they refuse to listen to me, could you please admonish them for this disruptive, illogical behaviour? Maybe they'll listen to an administrator.

Also, you might want to read this complaint at the administrator's noticeboard for some background information on anarcho-capitalism's disruptive behaviour. I was hoping that he could be temporarily blocked as per Wikipedia:Disruptive editing, but the consensus seems to be that I should seek arbitration.

Any help or advice would be appreciated! Thanks in advance,

WGee 03:50, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, Maggie removed a tag? Usually she specializes in adding them. I agree about opting for arbitration, especially since Woohookitty, who knows the page so well, seems to think it's the only option. It sounds like it's time to admin-lock the article for a while. Btw, that's one ug-lee-looking page! Talk about box hell. Bishonen | talk 11:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC).

WGee is acting against consensus, POV tag was removed by two difrent editors and two other agreed on talk that there is no reason for POV tag. I would have also removed it, if I had a chance. Also, it seems that you mixed Anarchism and Anarcho-capitalism articles. Woohookitty was active only on Anarchism. -- Vision Thing -- 21:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

At times, a group of editors may be able to, through persistence, numbers, and organization, overwhelm well-meaning editors and generate what appears to be support for a version of the article that is actually inaccurate, libelous, or not neutral, e.g. giving undue weight to a specific point of view. This is not a consensus. – WP:CONSENSUS

Furthermore, it is nobody's prerogative but mine to determine whether or not I dispute the article. All that is required in good faith is that I justifiy my reasons for disputing that article's neutrality, as I did. My reasons do not have to meet two editors' definitions of "good" or "legitimate" in order for the tag to remain. I'm sure you know that, Vision Thing. -- WGee 06:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Words among the grotesques

It won't be legible, what with all the flames and hippie blue jean patches and squawking, but I thought I'd mention that I e-mailed. Also, a thought occurred to me, in the midst of my bilious reflections on my own self-fulfilling prophecies (there is a tautology or two there): the Navy in the 17th & 18th century was today's Air Force. It was surprise attack, hopelessly technological, an industry that nations took great pride in surpassing others in technology, restricted to nations with advanced sciences, and romantic. Thus all the books of naval terminology released then, and all the books of aircraft released now, and for the same readers, too. Thus all the criticizing of novels for not getting their naval terminology and slang just right then (see Swift defending himself genuinely in Gulliver's Travels) and all the criticizing of novels for not getting their air strikes just right in military/spy/war novels now. Thus the "sailor" being a figure of a lady's bawdiest dreams and a "captain" being a lady's most marriageable dreams then, and thus a "fighter jock" being a lady's trysting fantasy now and a ... well, they don't dream so much of majors and colonels in the AF now. The point being that the intense interest in gosh-golly aspects of military terminology and practice, with exact relations of navigation and all the naming of tools, in 18th c. seafaring works is analogous to today's movies with gosh-golly super weaponized fighters. It's the same thing, just faster. Geogre 12:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC) </Geogre waves furiously, begins hopping up and down.> Geogre 21:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Peer review

Okay, this article wasn't the one I was referring to before, but I was wondering if you could take a look at Hilary Duff (album) and leave comments at Wikipedia:Peer review/Hilary Duff (album). As I told Geogre, disposable teen pop can be so fun and wonderfully trashy! I know you said you don't know much about music, but that's actually useful because I want to make sure people who don't know much about music can understand the article. Also, it probably needs a copyedit and might be too long. You don't have to comment if you don't want to though, and I won't mind if you don't. Thanks! Extraordinary Machine 12:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

OK,, sure, I'll take a look. If you're in the mood for a little tit for tat, scroll up and take a look at my informal peer review under the heading "To my guests", hmm? Don't feel obligated or anything, and especially, no, you don't have to say I'm wonderful (an informal compulsion to do that seems to have developed, which I think is something to do with my having recently registered User:Bishzilla as an alternative account—people never know when I'm coming to stomp on them!) Just please let me know if you see any problems with the page, especially anything that's hard to follow or understand. If you happen to not be familiar with 17th-century history, it would indeed be an advantage, just as you suggest yourself. But it's only a thought, don't feel you have to take me up on it. Best, Bishonen | talk 13:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC).

My talk page

Bishonen - thank you for your help regarding Gryffndor. Things got personal a little while ago, but we have a great moderator that has helped make a lot of good, respectful discussion and progress (potential). I just want to be able to edit and contribute - if I step out of line it's one thing, but what he's been doing is so blatantly personal. It's nice to know that at least someone noticed! Rarelibra 13:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I've been watching and contributing to those threads on AN and ANI because I feel strongly about attempts to force users to keep warnings visible (especially those mechanical templates—of course templates have no special authority over a note in a human voice, but they are more inflammatory and humiliating), and I noticed your post on AN, I think it was. Policy—which is what admins actually do, and what there's consensus for—has been changing rather quickly on this point. You can take a look at the discussion here if you're interested. But I'm hoping the threads I linked to will be persuasive to Gryffindor. If not, I can find more, as it's quite a big subject on the admin noticeboards. Bishonen | talk 21:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC).

I think it's valid for anonymous IP addresses - so an admin can see historic viewpoint of continual abuse from one address. But from a particular user I think it all depends on the situation. In this more recent situation, I stumbled into a situation with South Tyrol that has been ongoing for a year. Then I didn't quite realize the impact of my actions, and was warned while I was learning that I walked right into a minefield. Gryffndor took it personal and made statements such as me "wasting my time on Wiki Commons" because (in his words) "I am (ahem) a sysop there as well". So Gryffndor and I locked horns a few times. I found a voluntary mediator with an admin - Lar - and he has done a lot to monitor the situation and cool our heads. I thought it was all well and good, then suddenly Gryffndor is back on my personal page with his threats of "continually monitoring me". I find this offensive. I am a military person and have a strong personality, but I haven't done anything that deserves such. The greatest percentage of my edits have been contributing to fill holes in wiki where I find maps missing or other information needed (or corrected). So I simply want him to leave me alone and do his own good in edits and not constantly theaten or monitor me in any way - after all, that IS violating the wiki harrassment (or stalking) rules. Rarelibra 22:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Mrs. Humphry Ward

Do you know anything about this author, her name keeps cropping up in my Hannah re-search, and there is limited internet material available, she based the heroine of a couple of her books loosely on Hannah, and lived in a house close by (incidentally on my youth I went to a parties there twice she had long gone, and the new owner was somewhat more notorious and entertaining - had an amazing jacuzzi - where no-one was allowed to where clothes - Oh to be youthful again. Seriously is she famous in English lit, or in the same class as poor dear lamented Sybil? God oh gods I just tried her as a link Mrs. Humphry Ward it workss - but the question remains........Giano 21:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Not in the same class as Sybil at all, much better known. Not a good writer, you know, but a notable public figure, and especially an establishment figure, against whom the suffragettes and the New Women defined their efforts. (The New Women = the Victorian, you know, feminists?—if you've heard of such a thing.) She was known as a children's writer and public debater, promulgating conservative values and religion. And anti-feminism—she was the president of the Anti-suffragette League! Bishonen | talk 21:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC).

Ah well Lord Rosebery was against giving votes to women, because "India (ie the Indians) would not like it" and of course Hannah was so powerful she hardly needed a vote - but would she (Mrs H W) have based Sir G Tresady's heroine and (I can't be bothered to click back) "Melissa?" on Hannah R? The Gutenberg link suggests although they were close neighbours Stocks is with in sight of Mentmore they were not that close friends, have you read anywhere before that her heroine as based on Hannah? I've started to read the books (first 2 pages) and don't see it, yet McKinstry gives it as fact Giano 21:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

If women cannot be trusted with the difficult political decisions, and so should not have the vote, one wonders what they are doing setting up a political organisation like the Women's National Anti-Suffrage League to campaign against it... -- ALoan (Talk) 22:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

In my experience - they just can't help trying to take control - Of course in Sicilia we don't have these problems our women respect their menfolk Giano 22:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

What's the matter Bishonen dear - something caught in your throat? Giano 22:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Smoke inhalation, no doubt. That is one good article, by the way. The only change I would make would be to extend the "aftermath" slightly to talk about rebuilding a bit more. At the very least, The Monument should be mentioned. -- ALoan (Talk) 22:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, please compare my comments on Talk:Great Fire of London. Bishonen | talk 23:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC).

Well, I was rather hoping that we could knock off an adequare "aftermath" section for this, so it could pass FAC soonish, without having to wait for a complete new "afterwards/rebuilding" article to be written and then summarised here (great though that article would no doubt be). -- ALoan (Talk) 23:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Bishonen that one has to cut some bit of the story off, and the rebuilding is the best candidate. For one thing, to be at all fair, the rebuilding must be complicated, because it was a very complicated affair. Any number of wonderful plans bumped against each other, and even the grubbiest of plans bumped up against the Dutch Wars and their costs, and all bumped up against Parliament, which was run by Commons, which was run by various ancestors of Ronald Reagan's and Margaret Thatcher's. They didn't see why they should give a farthing to help the king look good or ape papists. Against all the economic reality, pitch the commercial development that was taking place without permission. Against that, toss in the competing public health views (some prophetic, and some stupid). Then add in some powerful personalities in the Royal Academy. No: even a bird's eye view of the rebuilding is 20 years at a blink. I know readers are going to yearn for closure and a happy ending, but the actual ending, as opposed to the poetic one that has been repeated countless times, is money, the King getting a mysterious lump sum from France (for promising to convert to Catholicism), the gain of New Amsterdam and loss of Surinam, etc.

BTW, ALoan, I've just been reading The Insatiate Countess, by John Marston and some actors, and I met there (1610) "rhinoceros" used as an insult, as the rhinoceros was a great example of a stupid beast with a horn in the middle of its forehead: a cuckold. Geogre 02:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh groan, the Monument. I cannot make myself share the manic fascination with this topic, but I've added something. Of course feel completely free to expand, ALoan. If you think it proportionate. <BISHZILLA WILL GET YOU.>

All right, here goes nothing. We're on FAC. Bishonen | talk 06:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC).

Hehe, we have a support already! Bishonen | talk 06:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC).

No, I am going to bed... seriously. Bishonen | talk 06:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC).

• I'm thinking that the less said about the objection, the better. It's as much validation as I could ask for of my hatred of people using style sheets: you should have to take a gun safety class before getting a gun, a driver's test before getting a driver's license, a background check before you get explosives, and you should actually have to understand grammar, syntax, and prose quality before getting access to a style sheet...except, of course, if you understand those things you won't need a style sheet! Geogre 12:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Call for reinforcements here. I don't really have any comments on the equation of long sentences with rambling sentences; I don't think them synonymous, but YMMV. But a "covering note" of mine about Pepys' Diary ended up too far down, leaving some statements "uncovered", so I'd better fix that and mention that I have. Bishonen | talk 12:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC).

I'm off to an exciting day of meetings in the so-called real world, but will have a look in, later on. Newyorkbrad 12:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Of course we are grammarians...or I am, anyway, professionally...although that doesn't mean that we don't never miss grammar. Anyway, a single objection like that won't stand in the way, and he's entitled to his opinion (even if thinking that a compound-complex sentence must ramble is a wrong opinion, in my own opinion, and putting an adjectival subordinate clause as a modifier into a main clause is a good relief from the jackhammering of simple and compound sentences). Geogre 13:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I spotted a few infelicities when I quickly read it last night, but not enought to want to complain about them - I will do a light copyedit when I have the time over the next few days. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Why a picture of the monument is called for

The monument is located at Pudding Lane, where the fire started (yes, you and I know that it started somewhere near there, not there exactly), so, perhaps early on a monument photo? Geogre 13:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• No No No Geogre - I don't think I have ever said that before, I rarely disagree with you but on this instance I do very strongly. I think if you are not very careful you could spoil the layout and feel of the page which is very "restoration", no fotos at all so far, that to suddenly introduce a modern image would be very jarring indeed. While I would love to rant all over the page about the architecture that came afterwards, the whole page is about before and during rather than after, perhaps the page needs a sequel rather than additions. Giano 15:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Gosh. I just wanted a picture of Pudding Lane, or a pudding itself. Geogre 15:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Well you can't have one! Trust me I am right! If you want to be useful have a copy edit to Hannah for me, i'm going out for an hour, and am tired of her, even if she does have her own rather tacky Taj mahal she has become a very demanding if not verbose mistress - having seen what they are saying about Fire I can all too easliy immagine what they will say about her if I am ever stupid enough to put her there. Giano 16:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I beg your pardon Bishonen. Do I look look like the sort of Goat that would appear in a common Rodeo? Let me tell you I shop in Roma, London and Milano, I am a goat of sophistication where did you but your last dress I ask? Stockholm is very passe and full of last years colours I expect. Must go - that nice little shop in "Beauchamp Place" is calling, why don't you put that in the trivia section too? Love Sicilia.
Hi Sicilia! No, you don't look like a rodeo goat, you look like a goat from one of the houses of ill repute around the park area of Moorfields, where the fire refugees went. Put that in your Trivia section and smoke it. (Chorus: "You put your weed in there!") Bishzilla.14:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC).

To avoid the tackiness (feared by Giano) of those newfangled daguerrotypies or photo... whatever, an old picture could be used, such as the one here. (There are puddings in the picture, but they are too small to be seen.) Tupsharru 11:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

No that is light bright and 18th century, the monumnent was an afterthought to history, and needs to be in the sequel not the fire page which is all Higgldypiggledy houses, Restoration prints and serious paintings and portraits, any pictures of classical architecture would stick out like a goat at a rhodeo. Giano 13:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Higgledy? Piggledy?? Watch it, buster. Bishonen | talk 13:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC).

It is an accepted term for disjointed evolved architecture! as opposed to smooth and sleek neoclassical which is what the monument is! Giano 13:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, right, and you're taking that goat of yours on the rodeo circuit now? Bishonen | talk 13:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC).

I hope everybody realizes that the pudding in Pudding Lane isn't a dessert. The word carries it's old meaning of offal. (No, I will not add that interesting fact to the article, currently clocking in at 50 kb. It's the encyclopedia anyone can edit: you add it. Yes, you! Start a "Trivia" section!) Bishonen | talk 13:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC).

I did not know that; but then again, I learn more from the dialog on this page than from many articles: User talk:Bishonen is the trivia section. Can I nominate to DYK directly from here? Newyorkbrad 13:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Mmm, Steak and kidney pie... (No, I didn't know that either, but I have now read the authoritative treatise on the subject.) Tupsharru 14:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Well now, you see, puddings were made by stuffing entrails with meat and offal and other things. Think of a haggis, or, indeed humble pie. But were the entrails and organs named after the dish, or vice versa? Was Pudding Lane a place of butchery? -- ALoan (Talk) 15:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Aha - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pudding - [Origin: 1275–1325; ME poding kind of sausage; cf. OE puduc wen, sore (perh. orig. swelling), LG puddewurst black pudding] or [Middle English, a kind of sausage, from Old French boudin.] -- ALoan (Talk) 15:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of pies, might I recommend those made by a Mrs. Lovett in Fleet Street? And be sure to see her friend the barber, Sweeney Todd (chorus chimes in:The Demon Barber of Fleet Street), next door. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 15:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, shepherd's pie, with real Sheppard on top. -- ALoan (Talk) 16:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Golden Boy of Pye Corner(!) -- ALoan (Talk) 19:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, well, I'm one mean snake on FAC just now. I'm sorry, ALoan, if you caught shrapnel in the explosion, and Grapes, if you got hit by friendly fire, too, but I know my exasperation with style sheet tracer paper is well known and somewhat shared. I spend every danged day having to cover grammar, and then I see people basically wanting to take us back to the his genitive and in love with "lofty" sounding phrasings at the very same damned time that they're trying to encourage Hemingwayesque brusqueness. That they don't know what they want is a given. That they don't understand what they're asking for is the point that bugs me. Geogre 16:19, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, his genitive is red. Time to dig out the Algeo & Pyles, I suppose, or see if it's already discussed in genitive or if that's really the most common term for "Ned his house." (No, no, do not think that the his genitive is the most ancient. it isn't. It's a hypercorrective error generally confined to the 1640's - 1690's, about like people today pronouncing the "t" in "often.") Geogre 16:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

• His genitive is blue now, but the irony fairy thwapped me: I wrote it, but it's startlingly bad prose, and the article could use a wholesale rewrite. It's just that the material is sort of difficult to explain clearly. Geogre 11:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• Wow, you used to have that? This kind of genitive construction is common in Low German, Afrikaans and Norwegian (dem Mann sein Hund / die man se hond / mannen sin hund = the man's dog (the Man his Dog?). I love it - I try to work it into every edit I make to the Norwegian Wikipedias ;) Do your sources not mention the possibility of a relation between these and the English his genitive? Haukur 11:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Indeed, Curme mentions it explicitly, and Baugh isn't in the business of mentioning it (as his book is strictly confined to morphology and not linguistics). Algeo & Pyles (A History of English) don't mention the comparative angle. Curme notes that it occurs in other OHG derivatives but can't quite connect the dots, and I'm not sure how easily the dots could be connected, if Baugh is right and it occurs because of an accident of phonology. I'll go back to Curme and add in the cognate usages in other Germanic languages. Geogre 12:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
    • • The phonological accident could perhaps have been strengthened by German influence. Just because you've got one good explanation you don't have to discard all the less good explanations ;) It's probably not necessary to postulate a connection but people like me will wonder about it and want to see it addressed in the article. In sum - great, thanks! Haukur 13:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that is a DYK if ever I saw one. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• Really? I thought it was far too dull, and I'm still convinced that I did a hash on the writing of it. The DYK part is whether or not the his genitive is the reason people use the apostrophe for genitive endings in ModE. The genitive article says that it's debatable, but Curme and Baugh both say that it's simply true, although Baugh points out that Samuel Johnson was probably the source for the popularity of the theory. (The genitive article has no citations, but the his genitive article does, so we know who wins, if it's a contest.) Geogre 12:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes - something like "...that the genitive "-'s" ending in English may be derived from the his genitive construction [common in some other European languages]?" (you would have to get a citation for the last bit, of course).

Of course, the question the feminists are pondering is how this would work with a feminine character: "Molly (his?!?) dog?" *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 18:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I have just had to rewrite Sir Peter Lely - one of the recent bio copyvios, apparently. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, new Did you know for the his genitive, with newly added information that connects the dots to other OHG languages. Basically, it's this: our good friends the Anglo-Saxons had a his genitive, her genitive, and their genitive, but they stopped for some reason or never got all over with it. (No info on whether or not it's a Danelaw feature.) Other OHG languages kept going with it. So it shows up in ModE from a misunderstanding of lME. I added the DYK entry, so we'll see if they think it's comprehensible. Geogre 19:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

How absolutely fascinating. And what a good job I found the latest Bishonen-article and ended up here to comment. Now I have learned a thing about language as well as lots about London. Sorry, btw, to butt in here, but my browser can't cope with editing the entire page, so I have to piggy-back on a section. Hello, Bishonen (and all). Yes, I realised subsequently that the talk page commentary must be from the FAC. I slunk off from WP:FAC when people started posting their lists of grammar to abide by. All a bit too much "I'll see your Strunk and White, and I'll raise you a copy of the Oxford Guide to Style." Anyway, love the article. It's almost as informative as your talk page :) Telsa (talk) 17:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Heh heh, I trust you like the rotating dinosaur. Well, of course you do, everybody does! ;-) Bishonen | talk 17:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC).

The dinosaur troubles me not at all. I have a magic "kill images" button on my toolbar. Feel free to connect these facts in any way you see fit :) (Btw, it doesn't rotate for me. I feel deprived.) Telsa (talk) 17:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Restoration comedy edits

Hi, thanks for bringing that to my attention re: my edits to Restoration comedy. I was under the impression that un-piped links are preferrible to piped ones, however that does not seem to always be the case. Also, I added the extra links because they seemed like words/concepts that the average reader might want a fuller explanation of. But, if my edits were disagreeable, then by all means they should be reverted. Regards, Paul 19:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Erich Heller

Saw you were on the delete logs for this - it came up as a speedy - do you know the history of this? --plange 08:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing it to my attention, I have now reverted the blanking and the speedy tags. The author of the page had done it himself, under the illusion that the article is his to do as he likes with. I do know the story, but it's very surrealistic and complicated, and I have to catch a train. Please either refer to User:Charles Matthews or just take a good look at User talk:Prof02. Oh, and if you're an admin, I suggest you protect the page if he tries to get it speedied again. By all means try talking with him if you want, to explain how the system works, the GFDL and so on, but, well, you may want to take a look at his talkpage before you do. Bishonen | talk 08:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC).

Thank you for supporting my RfA

Thank you for your support in my RfA, which passed with a final tally of (56/0/2). It was great to see so much kind support from such competent editors and administrators as commented on my RfA. I know I have much reading to do before I'll feel comfortable enough to use some of the more powerful admin tools, so I'll get right to it. Again, thanks; └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 13:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Dr.khan

I found that this sockpuppet also voted support on my RfA, so I suppose the count should be corrected there, too. _└ ^OzLawyer / _talk ^┐ 13:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Great Fire of London

No, you have not offended me, and I regret that I have offended you. I simply think that many of the sentences in the article are verbose. In my personal writing I like complex and rich language, but I'm less fond of it in profession and public works. My manner in opposition might have been brusque, but it was late at night, and I felt it was in keeping with the general tone of FAC. (Tony1 has in the past been particularly brutal regarding prose, and the term has been thrown around sever times over the year.) Later comments in the FAC directed at me rubbed me the wrong way, and "Flab" and variants unfortunately stuck in the immediacy. I'm sorry the offense. I hope you see that I've been trying to work in good faith to improve the article, which is well done, regardless of its designation.--Monocrat 22:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

A Kitten's Story

File:P1010219.JPG

I'm only 10 minutes into it (the shortnened US version, narrated by Dudley Moore), but think this may well be the best movie ever made! (Dersu Uzala was kitten-less, I believe) El_C 01:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Oohh, look at the full-size version of the pic! The cute little thing is thwacking you one, with claws just like needles! It reminds me of WP:FAC, somehow. Here, here, li'l FACie, come to... ouch! Bishonen | talk 23:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC).

The waterfall scene was disturbing. The kitten was saying meooew meooew and I thought, 'he isn't acting, that kitten is genuinely afraid.' Not cool. El_C 05:27, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

My Editor Review

Hi, I just started an editor review at Wikipedia:Editor review/Jersey Devil and am trying to get feedback on my edits. Feel free to leave a review or comment. Thanks and bye.--Jersey Devil 02:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Thewolfstar

Although they're both on open proxies, a checkuser on Doctors without suspenders (talk · contribs) led me to Radiant hedgehog (talk · contribs) who led me to Imagination débridée (talk · contribs), who you've already blocked as Thewolfstar, so I assume it's a safe bet they're all Thewolfstar. These three have used an amazing amount of open proxies; I haven't finished going through them all. Do you know if there are any more socks recent enough to check for proxies? Dmcdevit·t 19:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

WhiskeyRebellion

Oops! I'm so sorry I didn't realize that user was blocked! Thanks, and my apologies. Mar de Sin ^{Speak up!} 23:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

No problem! Bishonen | talk 23:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC).

Great balls of fire

Adding to my first reply: you mentioned that you might refrain from any more FACs. Please don't let my temporary foolishness affect your plans. –Outriggr § 05:11, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't just you. Anyway, I don't think I did any grandstanding about taking my ball and going home, I just said I'd hesitate longer next time before FACing anything, which may not be a bad thing. Getting a body part or two crushed between the wheels is part of the wiki experience and a good way of finding out how unfamous you (anybody) are (is). You and me both. Half of even those who watch any particular debacle never notice, the rest forget about it in short order. Even more so with your triumphs: feel good about them, by all means, but be aware that nobody else remembers, and that, in any case, 90% of the population always arrived last week and have never heard of you. It's a very indifferent place, which is good and bad—mostly bad, IMO—but it does mean it's easy to live down a setback. Don't be concerned for your repute, it's already recovered. Bishonen | talk 13:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC).

Yes, and I say Fukit all the time, and last week I was Wikipedia most notorious infamous wicked evil divisive disruptive and insulting enabler (I was never sure what that one meant). who was only here to demand a "free pass" to be even more rude to Admins and members of the Arbcom, and now just look at me a week later a forgotten dull old has-been - such is wiki-fame. Giano 13:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Giano, we can all see how much you miss the limelight. Those are some of the saddest cases, where nothing remains of the old scandal except a whiff of je t'adore and an Ancient Mariner-type compulsion to look for somebody to buttonhole. Bishonen | talk 16:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC).

I think I'm the one being most mean, and I think I've explained why adequately. Memory does persist, though: just look at Sandy Springs responding (or not) to me. Also, I am rather the same person each time out, except that I've been getting less polite as time has gone on and there has been no mending of ways. I get some of the same reactions, too, when I complain generally about, let's say, a self-appointed "style" and "copy editing" master/mistress, and every person who has made a change to an article thinks I'm referring to him or her. It has never been that changes aren't possible, and I would commend my history of dealing with changes to "my" pages as witness, but about the name of these changes being "fixes" (the implied incompetence of everyone but the Myrtle the Turtle judge of style and copy), when they're more alterations. Some are improvements. They're not "fixes," however, unless there are actual errors present or, much more directly implied, incompetence involved. How could anyone interact with such an arbiter without being insulted? Add to that what appears to be memory-based prejudicial interest, and how could anyone fail to be irritated or worse? So it goes. It's just that the long memories look funny to the people with no previous experience of these conversations and arguments, while the new person's comments can look like an insidious reiteration of the long time quarrel, and thus we mistake friend for foe in all directions. Geogre 18:28, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

PLEASE READ, don't just revert

Re: Starwood Festival article

Please READ the most recent version of the article I wrote. Let's see what I have added in the last time:

I included the topic magical and spiritual, and still state that the phrase "New Age topics" does NOT cover them adequately. Many New Age folks do not accept that magical practice is part of what they do, and there are many spiritual practices that are NOT New Age ones. I also added the topic "mind/body sciences". I included the founding date of the event. I cut the repeat of the phrase "these communities" and just made it "them". I trimmed the third paragraph MORE than the one you keep reverting to. I added an additional type of dance that is featured at the event, then cut a paragraph out.

I created a "Features of the event" section, and cut some of the same other paragraphs that the version you revert to cut. I changed "that can be seen from space" to "visible from space". I added "Sufiism" to the list of spiritual paths featured under the People section.

Otherwise, I have accepted a lot of the cuts that have been made. Gone is the mention of seasonal campers, wood-busters, the line about the intent of the event, the mention of the event being a yearly vacation for some, the "celebrating their diversity" line, and more. In fact, I think I have eliminated most of what has been objected to, while making the description of the event and its components more complete.

I urge you to actually READ the newer copy, and to compare it to such sites as the Burning Man site, and explain why reverting to that one rather than using this one is an improvement. In my opinion, the addition of a History section, a Principles section, a Community section, a Timeline section, and all sorts of other information would be encyclopedic and in keeping with the rest of Wikipedia, along with graphs and photos. I see no reason to harass me over the present content.

However, I apologize for violating the 4-revert rule. It was an accident, and I did self-revert as soon as it was pointed out to me. I'm not sure I did it right, but I certainly did not revert it again until Timmy12 stepped in, and he has a history of staking my articles and reverting them. Rosencomet 21:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Who wast?

Wasn't Prof02 another name before? It's coming up on the AfD for Erich Heller. Geogre 21:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so, at least not in the sense you mean on AfD. There's one account I suspect is his sockpuppet, but that account's editing has been limited to a few talk-page posts. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

No, Geogre. You'll have to retract that, I reckon. Bishonen | talk 22:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC).

I can be wrong, of course, but I thought he was signing with another name at first then set himself up as Prof02. I'm sure enough to not retract, although I can't remember the prior name. It was a nonsensical name abakabababaa something like that. Geogre 02:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I've had much more contact with this user (worse luck for me), and I do think you're wrong. IRC, Geogre? Bishonen | talk 02:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC).

IRC within the next few minutes, that is, for after that I'm off. Bishonen | talk 02:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC).

Thesis

1. All critics apply their theoretical background to their works and authors, but
   1. As publish or perish increased, young "scholars" began looking for authors who would work for their theories, rather than for theories that would work for them or be true, so psychoanalytic critics went looking for authors and works with poop phobias, Marxists went looking for authors and works with some sneering or romanticizing of poverty.
   2. The theories became increasingly speculative and decreasingly applicable, as they began to obey their own Darwinian dynamic and fight against one another for the most unique and exclusive appeal.
2. When a person begins with a very small tool, she or he has to find a very small nut to crack.
3. We stop talking about Dickens and Pope and Ford Maddox Ford to begin talking about small, small appeal works and about the major figures only with antipathy and denunciation.
4. It's enough to make you sick to your stomach. Geogre 10:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

David Garrick, Samuel Foote, and the red-linked Bedford Coffee-house

Greetings all! I'm back to trudging through the David Garrick article and came across Sam Foote who is just fascinating. I just finished a rework of his article. Anyhow, the Bedford Coffee-house has popped up in both article as a red-link. Might any of you literary types have anything on it so that it can be a blue link? *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 20:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Gosh - he was the one to taunt poor William Dodd as Dr Simony. -- ALoan (Talk) 21:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

He's blue, but there can be more, as even I had heard of him. I seem to be very busy on Wikipedia all of a sudden. Who knew little his genitive would generate so much discussion? Geogre 21:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

In his defence, he appears to be an equal opportunity taunter, though he did get mighty pissed when David Garrick taunted him. Any idea in what play he taunted Dodd? *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 21:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

From Google, one sources (actually this interesting-looking paper from JSTOR) mentions a Dr. Simony in The Coseners - is that a Foote play? -- ALoan (Talk) 16:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm...it doesn't ring a bell, nor appear in my sources. I will check at the library tonight, though. They have the complete works of Foote. I'll check out the paper as well. Thanks! *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 16:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Since Simony derives from the Book of Acts and was a constant accusation of clergy one did not like, it's a pretty predictable typonymn, although I can't say I know of many plays that used it. The Restoration and early century plays would prefer variations on "cant" and "trim" as their insults of choice for clergy. Geogre 16:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, that paper is mainly about Dodd and his Beauties of Shakespeare, and says "He was ridiculed by Foote as Dr. Simony in The Coseners", so I hope it is more than just a random insult. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

en-admins

Thanks for the tip but it says "=ChanServ= An access level of [5] is required for [INVITE] on #wikipedia-en-admins". Oh well. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 23:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Right. All admins are supposed to have an access level of 5 without having to ask for it. But maybe your IRC nick is different from your wiki account name? I can't even see you on #wikipedia right now. I looked for Interiot, but he seems to be AFK. Anyway, if you go there and put a general question, I'm sure somebody who knows what to do will reply. Bishonen | talk 23:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC).

I had to ask. Mindspillage fixed me. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah he's CBWeather on IRC. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It told me the full CBW was not valid. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 00:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

CBW, try asking uuf. DVD+ R/W 00:39, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

What does IRC stand for? Inane/irate, Ridiculous/retched (yes I know that should have a "w", C......?/comatose Does anybody actually know, it's the sort of thing that may come in useful some day in a game on Christmas day........Giano 21:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I refuse to tell you, we admins have our special terminology that's not for the hoi polloi. But here's a hint: if you want a subject defined, type define colon and then the subject into Google. Thus define:IRC will reveal the secret. Shhhh. Bishonen | talk 21:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC).

It's leet spelling of "Irk." It irks people to use IRC, and it is where they go to irk each other (and talk about penises). (The C stands for chat, which is French for "cat.") (The R stands for Relay, which is what you do when you failed to get pregnant.) Geogre 22:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• I haven't got time to talk about colons and organs and offal with you, I'm far too exited by the news from our cousins in America, who are about to put an Italian in the White House (trust me I always read the future accurately - remember the World Cup!) I expect we are probably related (I wonder if she knows?). Well once cousin Nancy is in the west wing - I shall be very important indeed, I shall probably have a very big Cadillac with motorbikes (just like Jimbo's) - Oh happy days. Italia Rules OK. Things are looking up - the world is suddenly a happy place - I may give you, Geogre, BoG and ALoan a ride in my new Caddy - I shall think about it - depending on your future conduct - there is no need to call me Sir....just yet. I'm busy writing an ode: "It's a happy day for the US of A" Giano 22:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks ...

... for taking care of that, sparing me the need to agonize about whether I would be allowed to remove it myself. As indicated on Heligoland's page, I think everything is straightened out now, but your attention to detail and my Wiki-rep is appreciated. :) Newyorkbrad 23:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Agonize about whether you would be allowed to...oh, please. There is such a thing as taking the "respectable" thing into the realm of the ridiculous, you know! Bishzilla 23:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC).

I didn't say I would have agonized very long. :) Newyorkbrad 23:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

See, I would have left it as a badge of shame for the *other* guy... Probably with a snarky comment beneath. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. But editors who are dedicated enough to spend hours on RC patrol have to be forgiven if they mess up once in awhile. Newyorkbrad 00:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well sure. If you're not a blood-thirsty animal hell-bent on eternal revenge for the smallest transgressions, like me, that makes sense. :-) —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 00:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello there, Bunchzilla, how nice to see you. Brad [nostalgically], you won't believe this, but I can remember the days when young Raisins here was as respectable as you are now! What happen, eh? Bishonen | talk 01:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC).

That bird thing

The moving and twitching things on this talk page make me cry and fold up into the fetal position, but I love the deadpan humour in your awarding an always-on-top animated bird thing to KillerChihuahua for campaigning against those things. Thank you for making my day a bit more surreal! — Saxifrage ✎ 21:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

File:Dainsyng.gif Bishonen | talk 21:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC).

RFC

Just so you know, the recent note on Talk:Ecological economics was what prompted me to remove the RFC listing, since I eventually figured out that was why the other fellow came to the page in the first place and wanted to forestall any more timewasting. Sorry to cause the confusion, and a belated thanks for backing me up on that.

And a minor correction: User:Swedenborg isn't new, and has been pushing this issue for the last year or two, including trying to recreate his pet cause as an article under a similar name when the original was protected against recreation. --Calton | Talk 00:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Those listings aren't supposed to stay up indefinitely, I presume. It was from September. I only noticed after I posted that the Swedenborg account has in fact been editing for a year, though not very actively. What can I say--he seemed new. I don't get the impression that you need any admins to help you keep the POV warriors at bay, but please consider letting me know if there's some major blocking issue, like that meatpuppetry thing. I kind of can't face watching Talk:Ecological economics. Bishonen | talk 00:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC).

J'ai un question!

I have no idea if that it spelled correctly, but I was wondering how people on this site become administrators? I'm kinda curious. Do they have to pay? Or are they all founders of the site? Oh, and how long has Wikipedia been around for? Never mind, I'll look that up myself. But I'm still uber curious about how stuff works on here. --Dakltit

To become an admin, all you have to do is be a trusted, experienced user and pay $1,500 into Jimbo's bank account. The last bit is a secret, don't tell anybody. You can check out the process of adminmaking on the page WP:RFA if you like. I see that those rude posts from you are still on Calton's page, although you have posted a sort of apology. I'm going to assume good faith--that you didn't know what I meant by removing them, or didn't know how--and remove them myself. Best wishes, Bishonen | talk 14:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC).

A cure

Some echinacea, which cures the common cold.

You know, I go to the trouble of uploading photos, and I then figure out what tag I have to use, where I have to put it, etc., and some image nut changes the template tag box template tag language, etc., and suddenly everything is subject to deletion. It's not subject to deletion because its copyright status has changed, but because some fiddler came up with a wayz kewel template. Geogre 21:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Awww. Thank you, dear. I wish that severed dinosaur head would stop rotating on top of the flowers, but what can you do. They're lovely and I feel very cured. Bishonen | talk 21:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC).

If you're cured, please stay cured, but see echinacea for a dissenting view. Regards, Newyorkbrad 21:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Lies, lies, all lies and CIA propaganda! The AMA and Psychiatric industry are trying to keep you from knowing the truth and listening to the prophets who know. I know some Peruvian dudes who are over 200 years old and can fly, man, and they only eat cone flowers and mushrooms! Geogre 21:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Warning

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2006 November 9#List of books with the subtitle "Virtue Rewarded". You may have a view on this. Regards, Newyorkbrad 21:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Haha. Thank you. I expected that to happen when the page was new. The nomination is very well expressed, indeed it pinpoints what I thought was funny about the notion at he time. Add to that that WP:NOT parody, not even a Parody of Lists, and it's a pretty obvious delete. I'll just let it take its chances. [/me goes off to gather my sockfarm to vote Keep.] Bishonen | talk 22:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC).

I wouldn't have particularly noticed the AfD nomination (I'm not much of a participant on the deletion pages) except that I happened to have clicked on your "favorites" link on your userpage today and noticed that you'd written a list. Serendipity, I suppose. Newyorkbrad 22:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Dang. I saw "warning" in the edit summary and thought someone was warning her not to add annoying hopping cheerful little birds to people's pages. KillerChihuahua^?!? 22:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Would that someone would. Would that someone would. (Or at least make them stay put in a box somewhere and not blot out text.) Geogre 02:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Wuh

So, is it Karl Werner or Verner? Danish, mid-19th c. Geogre 14:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Verner, Karl Adolf, according to a roughly contemporary edition of Dansk biografisk lexikon (the Danish DNB). (And DBL uses W in other names in the same volume, as is seen in the table of contents, so it is not just some kind of normalization thing.) Tupsharru 17:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Dang. That's not the answer I was hoping for, as I have this nice Swedish page that says he's a Werner, and I recall learning his law as Werner. Oh, vell. Geogre 17:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Ping?

—Bunchofgrapes (talk) 01:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

pong! KillerChihuahua^?!? 01:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Ping-Pong Somehow Elicits Macho Posturing. Boo-Ya! How You Like Me Now? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 01:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Boo-yah? I can't comprehend the image I have of you with you saying "Boo-Yah!" It's certainly not something I imagine being yelled from this ivory tower. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 06:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I will let you in on a really sad thing -- I do play table-tennis in the office, almost every day, and the fellow I play with and I both take our cues from the article I linked there. I am the Ponginator, I am King Pong, you are going down! —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 06:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

"I will slap your little white ball into a place where you'll never get it?" Mr. Freud would cancel the rest of the day's appointments. Geogre 12:46, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

RFC on Mattisse (me) re Starwood & Rosencomet

I have just received notification that a Requests for comment/Mattisse has been opened against my behavior regarding articles related to Rosencomet and Starwood Festival. Since I have seen your name in the edit summaries I am bringing this RFC to you attention. You may not want to get involed as it is very complicated. Thank you! Mattisse(talk) 14:35, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. You may be interested in another and related case: Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-03 Starwood Festival. Thaks! Mattisse(talk) 14:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

At last the fire is out

Geogre says, "Burn, baby, burn," and "Congratulations, Bishonen.

File:Liberacerings.jpg

User:Ganymead presents Bishonen with the Flaming Award for her article on a big, British Flamer.

Look, guys. Thank you, but there's nothing about the article or the FAC or the FA that I like, OK? Too much ugliness. I don't want to think about it. Nice icon there, Geogre! Bishonen | talk 18:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC).

We congratulate you anyway, so there. (I did need a shave that day, didn't I?) (You know it's me, because no one could make up something like that.) (Fun with Photoshop.) Geogre 19:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of London history, I just looked at Newgate Prison and was surprised at how short it was. I assume much more could be written about that. And why is Newgate novels a red link? ▪T▪u▪p▪s▪h▪a▪r▪r▪u▪ 20:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

• Bishonen Sweatheart, just cut the crap. Fire is one of the best , most researched, and most professional pages on Wikipedia to date (rivalled only by John Vanbrugh said with no hint of modesty) you know that, I know that, and anyone who does not know it, is not fit to read it. So be happy, and accept the congratulations on a fine exemplary job, well done! Oh and BoG's maps were fantastic too Giano 23:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

• What Giano said. In spades, in barrowloads, in truckloads, in boatloads. (Can I just paste it and add my sig? ) KillerChihuahua^?!? 00:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Mood 02 meets real life

Okay, I know: it should be "Josef". But close enough. Keep it in mind when you and El C, or Giano, or Freply, finally get around to tying the knot. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:18, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

And then there will be need of "Thomas Beckett" in Smallville. I took a photo of his sign but now cannot find it. Geogre 20:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Does he by any chance make very expensive jackets for women? Giano 23:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

That I don't know, but I was always trying to organize a drunken procession to his offices, with each of us telling stories along the walk. It never happened, and I heard he was first class anyway. Geogre 01:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Careful there, that's a real identifiable, presumably living person you're talking about on the Internet here. Newyorkbrad 01:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Dang. Then again, I was reporting a received opinion truthfully, with neither malice aforethought nor awareness of his continuing in business in that place (which would be unusual, if he were, as he had left before I did). Therefore, he could not be identified as a business, and he was regarded as personally unpleasant. If I meet Bob, and I regard him as horrid, can I not say so? If I am reporting my own opinion as opposed to reporting a criminal or untrue quality, do I not have the right of speech? Now, if I go one step away from Bob and say, "I heard from a friend that Bob was dull," would I still not be alright for saying a true thing about a report received? Is it not only actionable when it is malicious, designed to harm business, and designed to ruin reputation (and that can only be the case if the reputation is not true)? As it is, I said only good things. C'est la CYA. Geogre 02:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Despite my profession, I wasn't thinking about this primarily from a legal point of view, just a "do unto others" one. Put it this way: if someone in "real life" encountered me once and found me to be somehow unpleasant (not an unprecedented phenomenon, I assure you), or heard a rumor that I was generally deemed to be a difficult individual to deal with, I wouldn't think it was appropriate for him to identify me by name in the context of a digression and gratuitously state that uncorroborated, bare opinion for the whole world to read on the Internet. Now granted, in this instance we are dealing with a relatively common name, so it's possible the issue would never come up - and then again, maybe in a week if this thread remains here, a Google search by a prospective client for [that guy's first name] [that guy's last name] [the town he is or was in] would yield this page as the number one result. Would that be a Good And Fair Thing, do you think? Regards, Newyorkbrad 02:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

To tell the truth, I wouldn't worry about it, given his profession. He must be pretty prepared for that. By putting his name on a sign, he was already placing it in the realm of thoroughfare speculation. This is why I am intolerant of people who wish to put one foot into the public sphere, as if, making themselves public, they can retain ownership of their public character. This is aggravated by the fact that the name would draw attention from anyone even dimly aware of British history (or a Pulitzer Prize winning novel that was also an Academy Award winning movie). However, the duration of the evil was now so brief that I doubt a Google cache is going to get it, and the very coincidence of his name with a more famous individual means a great unlikelihood that he'll be able to advertise on the web anyway. Geogre 03:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I retain ownership of my public character, at least I'd like to, after a fashion, having been vouched for as "respectable" just above by the proprietress of this very page. But I do agree that my concern was probably more theoretical than real in this instance. And now I'll hush before we have to start paying Bishonen rent for this space. :) Newyorkbrad 03:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Bishzilla (talk · contribs)

Is Bishzilla an alternate account of yours? I encountered it earlier and was confused over what to do since it's supposed to be indefinitely blocked. --Coredesat 07:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, Kylu cleared it up for me. --Coredesat 07:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, Taxman cleared it up for me. I indefblocked the impostor account myself back in February. and recently Taxman nuked it (seeing it was abusive, blocked, and had a grand total of one edit) so I could use it. Please see newbie Zilla's userpage. I just edited it as myself, to remove all doubts. I should have done that to begin with, sorry. I was in fact convinced I had done it. Bishonen | talk 07:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC).

Not a problem. And I meant that Kylu had explained it to me, because I didn't know what the deal was earlier, so it was confusing to me when I encountered it. Thanks for clearing up the remaining confusion. :) --Coredesat 09:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

DELETION Help?!

Bishonen,

Cholmes75 deleted Ill Bethisad on an expired Prod ... I don't recall ever seeing it, and frankly, I'm annoyed that the page was deleted when it's stood for 3 years and while the group may not be notable in Cholmes75's mind, it's _well_ known in Linguistical circles. Should I even DRV it? Bo-Lingua 17:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

PRODs can be contested by anyone, even after deletion: see WP:PROD#Contesting_after_deletion. I have undeleted. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 17:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Bunchofgrapes has restored it, since you're contesting the PROD. But you'd better watch the page now, if you feel strongly about it, as I would expect WP:AFD by the person who prodded it to be the next step. Bishonen | talk 17:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC).

Bishzilla's Compliment

You seem to be used to receiving compliments on your insightfulful questions, are you sure that's healthy? Here's my maiden effort: are you crazy or do you merely think I am?[13] (Moved from userpage—please excuse a new user and get a talkpage link in your sig for great justice.) Bishzilla 06:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC).

Thank you for your kind remarks. Any compliments received by the undersigned are undeserved, I am sure, but I've had my share of cross words directed at me as well, so the balance helps make life here worthwhile. As for "insightfulful," I do my poor best, even as I sit here wondering whether "insightfulful" is an intensifier or a typo. It's to be expected that Bishzilla would speak loudly and repetitively, of course.

As for the substance of the matter, I feel empathy for a potential candidate who is lucky enough to receive multiple requests to co-nominate from a number of respected users who are either perceptive enough or deluded enough to believe the candidate might make a decent admin. Today on Rfa-talk we read that there are some who will oppose for too many co-noms, and others who might withhold support based on the candidate's perceived ownership issue with respect to his or her own RfA. One person on the thread made the suggestion that I anticipated, to the effect that having to keep everyone happy in those circumstances is a good practical exam question for a future administrator, but I don't really agree with that. I suppose there are those who think RfA should be a gauntlet, but I don't think it ought to require navigating between Scylla and Charybdis.

My own view is that with all the harshness that pervades the Wiki (User:Konstable's flameout over the weekend being the latest development that makes me sad), we have far worse problems to be addressed than too many kind words, on RfA or pretty much anywhere else. I have also found that not all co-noms are repetitive, and some are helpful in addressing a candidate's qualities from differing vantage points, and unless the candidate has blatantly lobbied for people to co-nominate in an effort to distract attention from some serious flaw, I don't see a problem with them.

As for the signature, I will look into changing it. The Wikipedian who initially greeted me several months ago (you may check who it was if you like) failed to mention the matter. Regards, Newyorkbrad 18:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

It reckon "insightfulful" was onomatopoeia for first one, and then the other, of the great feet coming down on Tokyo. "FUL..! FUL..!" Not much left where those have passed. But the substance, Brad, that she meant to point to, in her rough-and-ready way, was your reading of my own post as implying that I thought it was a good thing that early and thoughful RFA !votes get lost in the rush and forgotten about. You haven't responded to my in situ protest, and, though Zilla does tend to great frankness, in this case I, famous for my tact, will endorse her imputation of insanity. I mean... what? PS, I see it was poor old Karmafist, yes, what about it? He's banned, and for pretty good reasons.. but I still think he meant well. And he does have a talkpage link in his sig! Bishonen | talk 19:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC).

Well, "a good thing," that is, in the sense that if one argues that B is a better choice than A, then one posits the consequences of B are in some sense better than those of A. Here, for "A" read having a bunch of co-noms; for "B" read letting the would-be co-nommers post early in the Support section instead. Your view, as I understand it, is that the possibility of the rationale of early !votes being overlooked, while obviously not "good" in the abstract, is easier to accept than the negatives of multiple co-nominations, whatever those might be.

If you believe the matter is unclear in situ then will return thither and clarify appropriately after luncheon, although I believe the thread of the discussion has moved somewhere past that point by this point.

The irony of the Karmafist welcome to me is that I got the normal and standard newbie greetings; not for me the "political struggle" welcome of Bunchofgrapes v. Karmafist ArbCom fame. Having missed the indoctrination, here I sit, hiveminded with the rest of you. Cheers, Newyorkbrad 19:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Man. It's a problem that they're forgotten. This problem in its turn exacerbates, not alleviates, the problem of the conoms' greater pretensions, as the conoms through the forgottenness of the !votes get to even more emphatically call out, and enact, their greater importance than mere votes. Two tiers arise, distinguished not by meritoriousness of argument, but by mere form. It would only be a good thing if all good arguments were conoms instead of !votes. Heigh ho, now I'm depressed. I thought that was clear as daylight and it turns out to be incomprehensible. :-( [Stops nagging, not before time.] No, no, don't go back, far from worth it. Bishonen | talk 20:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC).

Oh dear, I was going back just as you were telling me not to go back. And you mustn't, as my significant one would tell you, allow yourself to be depressed through my thick-headedness. I do take your point a little more clearly on this articulation, besides. Thanks. Newyorkbrad 20:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

My RFC

Thanks for responding. The whole thing seems to be coming down to the issue of Starwood Festival and its suite of associated articles having so many spam links. If you could weigh in on that it would be nice but not critical. No one seems worried that I'm a sock puppet. So, thanks! I understand. Mattisse(talk) 19:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

You will want to check your mail

Good stuff. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Coolness! Bishonen | talk 21:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC).

Yes, good, better, how about also positioned more in the middle, not so far down? Leave it to you, but wouldn't it look more persistent? Bishonen | talk 21:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC).

On a topic in no way whatsoever related to the previous one

If I solemnly promise not to remove animated gifs from your pages, regardless of how annoying and spinny and flappy they may be, or how badly they make my little puppy head hurt, and limit myself to sad comments like Giano, will you call the zombie off? You're scaring visitors to my talk page. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Sad? Did you ever see anybody more graciously delighted with a pretty gift than Giano with his colibri, which is still flapping away on his page? Hmmm. Oh, you don't have to do all that, just read your mail. [/Me stuffs zombie chicken in pocket to scare the little ArbCom.] Bishonen | talk 00:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC).

Goodness, you're right, it was Geogre. How could I have gotten who was sad and who was delighted so thoroughly confused? Going to obediently read mail now... KillerChihuahua^?!? 00:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Sad? You want sad? 1. I remember when I used to get e-mail. 2. I'm way too young to have the latest health problem. Geogre 02:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, you got an e-mail on the same subject, Geogre, and you got it first. I can't help it that it kind of died. For Capital Geogre, only the capital SAD? I hope not, sweetheart! Bishonen | talk 02:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC).

Great fire of london

Congratulations on the FA. It's a cracking article despite all the FAC sparks. (groan......sorry) --Mcginnly | Natter 00:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Heh, thanks. You mean it was a crackling article? Bishonen | talk 01:02, 14 November 2006 (UTC).

Looking forward to reading the finished entry! Best, El_C 01:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

You mean yuo'll read it once the present stub has been expanded with a bit of concrete information? Yeah, that's a good idea. Bishonen | talk 02:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC).

I realize it's a work-in-progress; (no) rush! El_C 02:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)