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Current disputes

Talk:Iraqi Turkmen#Language

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by John Francis Templeson on 13:25, 3 May 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Iraqi Turkmen#Language (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• John Francis Templeson (talk · contribs) No longer allowed to participate per community topic ban.
• Selçuk Denizli (talk · contribs)
• ReconditeRodent (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I have brought several sources that claim Iraqi Turkmani to be dialect Azeri to the article. That was reverted by user Selçuk Denizli, who claimed that these sources are not good enough. Then I gave an extensive information on the sources and showed that all of them are academic and written by well-known specialists. My colleague ignored this information and kept asserting that these sources lack credibility. The 3O, that basically supported me, didn't persuade him neither. The discussion reached the stalemate, Selçuk Denizli just repeats the same.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion on the talk page, 3O

How do you think we can help?

Consider both point of views and explain who is right and who is wrong.

Summary of dispute by Selçuk Denizli

Unfortunately User:JFT has one aim: to label the Iraqi Turkmen as "Azeri". Whilst I acknowledge that there are similarities with the Iraqi Turkmen dialect(S) and Azeri (after all, both are Turkic), this user refuses to understand that they are not one language. Officially, the Iraqi Turkic dialectS (which vary region to region) are collectively recognized as Turkmen not "South Azeri". They show traces of both Ottoman Turkish and Azeri Turkic (as well as additional influence from Arabic and Kurdish), as the majority of linguistic studies on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects show. Just because this user has found some sources (most of which are not peer-reviewed) saying that they speak "South Azeri" does not make it true, for I have found over 20 sources that do the same for "Turkish" (which I have not included in the article nor the talk page). The article already acknowledges that there are traces of Azeri Turkic, but this user will not stop until they portray the Iraqi Turkmen as Azeris. They have not contributed positively to the article at all; to repeat, their only action has been to add "Azeri" in the article whilst dismissing the realities of the past-to-present Iraqi Turkmen dialects and its legal status. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 13:14, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by ReconditeRodent

I was responding to a WP:3O request. JFT had presented nearly a dozen reliable sources which classify the dialects spoken by the Iraqi Turkmen as "South Azeri", together with those spoken over the border in Iran. One researcher (Christiane Bulut) who has written extensively on the topic argues that the Iraqi Turkmen dialects are instead a transitional group between South Azeri and modern Turkish, which has imparted influence as a prestige language. Most Iraqi Turkmen, including Selçuk, do not see themselves as "Azeri" (Azerbaijani), and feel a far greater affinity to Turkey and the Turkish language, which is also the Iraqi Turkmen's official written language. (North Azeri (Azerbaijani), Turkish and the dialects spoken in Iraq and Iran all have degrees of mutual comprehensibility with one another.)

As I see it, my proposed phrasing for the start of the 'Language' section, which JFT seemed happy with, tried to account for all these viewpoints, while still making clear that the dialects are "generally referred to as South Azeri".

In any case, the article previously described the dialects as Turkish, which I can find no academic support for, so, while the discussion was still ongoing, I corrected that and some smaller things which I thought we'd agreed upon, while trying not to take a hard stance on the classification. Selçuk clearly didn't agree with part of this, and has since re-written the entire section, strongly emphasising the connection to Turkish (though most of the new content I would be happy to keep if better contextualised), almost exclusively citing Bulut (who they claim is more or less the only usable source), and removing any mention of South Azeri from the introduction. I was going to call an RfC but Selçuk had changed everything so much it would've taken a while to prepare and then this happened. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 17:33, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Iraqi Turkmen#Language discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note - There has been discussion on the article talk page. The filing editor has not notified the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:24, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

I did, I have written them on the talk page of the article. If I had to write them in their own talk pages — sorry, I just didn't know. It is first time I make an appeal here. John Francis Templeson (talk) 11:11, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Keep the discussion to a minimum before a volunteer has opened the resolution proces. --MrClog (talk) 18:46, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Selçuk Denizli, I have repeatedly said that I acknowledge that there is no consensus on the Azeri-Iraqi Turkmani dialectical relation. And I asked you to bring any source you want (there is already a one), that show Iraqi Turkmani as independent language, so we could attribute both opinions and present them in the article. Actually this is what we did (see the variant of the colleague that represented the 3O). But your only concern is to avoid using the sources that describes Iraqi Turkmani as a dialect of Azeri. And you cannot, because all the sources that I brought are peer-reviewed and academic. Message to other users: If I didn't have to post this message here, please, excuse me and delete or move it. John Francis Templeson (talk) 15:39, 5 May 2019 (UTC) You now say that you acknowledge there is no consensus; well, were you not seeking to describe the Iraqi Turkmen dialects as “Azeri” on 5 March 2019? If not, why are you seeking dispute resolution? The article already acknowledges that there are traces of Azeri Turkic, but you still continue. For over a month now, I have clearly shown (using studies on the Iraqi Turkic dialects) that it is influenced by several languages. Unfortunately, you have misused numerous sources by only quoting (or miss-quoting) parts of the studies that work in your favour; in addition, you seem to deceive users (perhaps unintentionally, I'm not quite sure yet) by describing these sources as "all peer-reviewed" – this simply is not true. You cannot fool us with an excessive number of footnotes which include non-linguistic sources or sources that are not peer-reviewed. You incorrectly cited Hendrik Boeschoten as "Lars Johanson, Éva Ágnes Csató Johanson"; he lists the people/language as "Iraq Turkmens", not "Azerbaijanian" (as he does for Azerbaijan, Georgia and Iran), yet you failed to show this. Ethnologue is not peer-reviewed; even so, it lists "Turkmen" and "South Azeri" as two separate languages in Iraq (again you failed to show this). You have also taken Hidayet Kemal Bayatlı's work out of context; he calls the dialects Irak Türkmen Türkçesi ("Iraqi Turkmen Turkish") and says that Azeri is part of the eastern Oghuz branch of Turkic (p.329), but the Iraqi Turkmen dialects are of the western branch. Then you use non-linguistic sources e.g. Găzănfăr Pashai̐ev and ‎Mâhir Nakip which is about Iraqi Turkmen folklore. So please be clear with your agenda. I have just looked at your edit history and can see that yesterday on the article Nader Shah you did something similar. You seem to keep pushing for Azerification; this is unacceptable. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 16:48, 5 May 2019 (UTC) You have something to say about Gerhard Doerfer and Iranica also?) There are dozens of classifications of Oghuz group. Again, you chose the one, that you like, and presented it as only true. And let me repeat again. There are sources that classify Iraqi Turkmani as a dialect of Azeri. Whatever you do, there are. And the sources that don't accept this classification. What I try to do, is make both opinions present in the article. What you want to do, is present only opinions, that only talk about traces of Azeri in Iraqi Turkmani. I want the both opinions to be present, you want only one of them. Do you feel the difference? he lists the people/language as "Iraq Turkmens", not "Azerbaijanian" (as he does for Azerbaijan, Georgia and Iran), yet you failed to show this. I have always called the language of Iraqi Turkmens as Iraqi Turkmani. I know that and I didn't try to challenge this name. I don't know, what is strange for you here, the source clearly says that there is an Azerbaijanian-speaking group in Iraq that called Turkmens. And yes, the book comprises several articles on Turkic language, that are edited and compiled by Lars Johanson and Éva Ágnes Csató Johanson. While I had to mention the author of the article, but my mistake isn't that big. John Francis Templeson (talk) 17:31, 5 May 2019 (UTC) The Iranica article is extremely vague about Iraq, only mentioning it by passing; in fact, you have not presented a single source which gives a detailed study on how Iraqi Turkmen dialects are part of Azerbaijani. I compromised by including Larry V. Clark and Hendrik Boeschoten, neither of which focus on Iraqi Turkmen and both of which give incorrect population estimates, for the 1957/58 census recorded 567,000 Turkmen whilst Clark mentions a figure of 200,000 and Boeschoten a figure of 400,000. I repeat again, none of these are a study on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects. Ironically, Christiane Bulut, who is by far the most important contemporary academic focusing on Iraqi Turkic, has been downplayed by you for sources that just happen to say "Azeri" in passing. This goes back to my initial concern with you: you do not seem to have an interest in the Iraqi Turkmen dialects; you simply want to brand it as "Azeri" and move on to the next article you wish to Azerify. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 17:51, 5 May 2019 (UTC) Dostum, the talk goes more and more agressive. Let's stop here. Both of us expressed our opinions, so mediators will decide, who is right and who is wrong. If I'll be proven wrong, I won't continue and I hope you will do the same. OK? No need to get nervous. And I hope we will be friends, no matter the result is. I don't need enemies. John Francis Templeson (talk) 18:00, 5 May 2019 (UTC) Sure, let's leave it there. If you were to provide detailed studies on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects that are peer-reviewed and support your arguments I would add them to the article. Also, I must add, the reason why I decided to re-write the section was firstly because User:ReconditeRodent had edited the first paragraph without agreement on the talk page. In addition, discussions between the two of you regarding other sources, such as one published by Radio Free Europe, was just adding more unreliable sources to the discussion. We must stick to academic/linguistic sources that have been peer-reviewed and, where possible, the main focus should be on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects, not just studies mentioning Iraq in passing with one short sentence or phrase. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 18:24, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

•  Volunteer note: I will open this resolution if no other volunteer has done so on Saturday. --MrClog (talk) 15:52, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

@MrClog, Selçuk Denizli, and ReconditeRodent: John Francis Templeson has received a 6 month community topic ban which will preclude further participation in the dispute, including this discussion User talk:John Francis Templeson#Topic banned from the Middle East, Caucasus region, Iranian peoples and Turkic peoples, broadly construed Nil Einne (talk) 21:09, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

First statement by moderator

@John Francis Templeson, Selçuk Denizli, and ReconditeRodent: I hereby open the resolution process. Before I dive into the content, please allow me to set up a few rules:

1. Do not directly respond to each other. You are here because that apparently does not work.
2. Comment only on content, not user conduct. So, this also means no personal attacks.
3. Do not engage in edit wars. If you do engage in one, I'll have to make a report at WP:AN/EW.

Now, I have no extensive knowledge on the subject, but I do understand that the issue is whether or not the article should claim that Iraqi Turkmen are Azeri speakers. Both parties claim there are realiable sources that claim their side to be correct. Therefore, please briefly explain what you want the article to read and list a maximum of 10 reliable sources that support your understanding of the subject. If there are more, list the 10 best sources you have. Thank you. --MrClog (talk) 12:41, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to ping @ReconditeRodent: as a reminder. --MrClog (talk) 13:54, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

First statement by editors

Do not engage with each other!
John Francis Templeson: I want to add statement that according to some sources Iraqi Turkmeni is considered as Azeri. And also I don't mind if there will be added that some others classify Iraqi Turkmeni as separate language (I know that Christiane Bulute has such position, I'll be grateful if Selçuk Denizli will add some more). On the whole, I want both opinion to be present here. Some sources that classify Iraqi Turkmeni as Azeri:

• Bilgehan Atsız Gökdağ, Irak Türkmen Türkçesinin şekil bilgisine dair notlar (International Journal of Turkish Literature Culture Education Volume 1/1 2012 p. 113-123, Turkey).
• Lars Johanson, Éva Ágnes Csató Johanson, The Turkic Languages (Routledge, 2015) — The Speakers of Turkic Languages by Hendrik Boeschoten.
• Encyclopedia Iranica, AZERBAIJAN viii. Azeri Turkish
• Gerhard Doerfer, İran'da Türkler (Türk Dili, TDK Yay., Sayı: 431, Kasım 1987)
• Several Soviet and Russian sources, including БСЭ 1970, Азербайджанский язык; Азербайджанцы. (Grand Soviet Encyclopedia)
• Prof. Dr. Hidayet Kemal Bayatlı, Irak Türkmen Türkçesi (T.C. İstanbul Üniversitesi Sosyal Bilimler Enstitüsü Türk Dili ve Edebiyatı Ana Bilim Dalı Yüksek Lisan Tezi). John Francis Templeson (talk) 17:08, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Selçuk Denizli: First of all, I must stress that I am an Iraqi Turkmen and was brought up speaking an Iraqi dialect of Turkic. Unfortunately, there are many websites which write incorrect information on our community (some incorrectly call us Azeris whilst others incorrectly group us under the Turkmen people of Turkmenistan -- mostly in passing, suggesting lack of knowledge). It is for these reasons that I have stressed the need to use sources by academics who are not only peer-reviewed but who are also specialists on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects or who focus on the legal status of minority languages in Iraq.

I have used the following sources (as well as several others) in the current version of the Iraqi Turkmen article, therefore, I wont repeat myself here (unless it is required). The 10 sources providing the most in-depth information on the Iraqi Turkmen, including dialects, official status, education, and media and literature are:

Dialects:

• Bulut, Christiane (2000), "Optative constructions in Iraqi Turkmen", in Göksel, Aslı; Kerslake, Celia (eds.), Studies on Turkish and Turkic Languages, Otto Harrassowitz Verlag, ISBN 3-447-04293-1
• Johanson, Lars (2001), Discoveries on the Turkic Linguistic Map (PDF), Svenska Forskningsinstitutet i Istanbul
• Johanson, Lars (2006), "Historical, cultural and linguistic aspects of Turkic-Iranian contiguity", in Johanson, Lars; Bulut, Christiane (eds.), Turkic-Iranian Contact Areas: Historical and Linguistic Aspects, Otto Harrassowitz Verlag
• Bulut, Christiane (2007), "Iraqi Turkman", in Postgate, J.N. (ed.), Languages of Iraq: Ancient and Modern, British School of Archaeology in Iraq, ISBN 090347221X
• Bulut, Christiane (2018b), "The Turkic varieties of Iran", in Haig, Geoffrey; Khan, Geoffrey (eds.), The Languages and Linguistics of Western Asia: An Areal Perspective, Walter de Gruyter, ISBN 3110421682

Legal/official status:

• Karimi, Ali (2016), "Linguistic and Cultural Rights in the Arab Constitutions: From Arabism to Linguistic and Cultural Diversity", in Grote, Rainer; Röder, Tilmann J. (eds.), Constitutionalism, Human Rights, and Islam After the Arab Spring, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0190627646
• Bammarny, Bawar (2016), "The Legal Status of the Kurds in Iraq and Syria", in Grote, Rainer; Röder, Tilmann J. (eds.), Constitutionalism, Human Rights, and Islam After the Arab Spring, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0190627646
• Bulut, Christiane (2018), "Iraq-Turkic", in Haig, Geoffrey; Khan, Geoffrey (eds.), The Languages and Linguistics of Western Asia: An Areal Perspective, Walter de Gruyter, ISBN 3110421682

Education:

• Shanks, Kelsey (2016), Education and Ethno-Politics: Defending Identity in Iraq, Routledge, ISBN 1-317-52043-2

Media and Literature (I have not yet written a section on literature):

• Saatçi, Suphi (2018), "The Turkman of Iraq", in Bulut, Christiane (ed.), Linguistic Minorities in Turkey and Turkic-Speaking Minorities of the Periphery, Harrassowitz Verlag, ISBN 3447107235

These sources are the most detailed peer-reviewed sources on the Iraqi Turkmen. None of these claim that the Iraqi Turkmen are Azeri or speak Azerbaijanian. These sources do not rely merely on one-liner sentences to "prove" the reality. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 16:40, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

ReconditeRodent: Besides everything already listed, I came across one source providing the following citation for the statement that Turkmeni “is closer to Azeri than Turkish”:

• Овезов-Каджаров 1993: 141, 185–187; cf. [Sâdettin] Buluç 1966 [Kerkük hoyratlarına dair], 1979 [Teknik Resim Uygulamalari-macit], [Abdullatif] Benderoğlu 1976, Дурдысв-Кадыров 1991: 50–53

As a tertiary source I might also mention David Nissman, an expert in the history and politics of the region who is himself cited by Bulut, who seems comfortable calling the language of the Iraqi Turkmen "the same" as that of the Iranian Azeris:

• Nissman, David (28 July 2001). "The Southern Azeri-Iraqi Turkmen Connection". RFE/RL. Retrieved 29 April 2019. The pressures on [the Iraqi Turkmen] are at least as great as those on the Iranian Azeris to conform to the demands of Iranian ethnic, political, and religious pressures. And yet this is not what unites the two peoples: it is that they share the same language and, in part, the same traditions.

Everything I've seen suggests this is at least currently the default view. It could be outdated, it could be wrong (although an argument about whether to put some dialects with one language or call them a "transitional group" between that language and another seems like it's unlikely to have a clean answer), but for now it's what most sources say. All I want is for this idea to be mentioned once (nearish the start) and not in a way that implies it's an errant or minority view. It doesn't have to imply that because it's widespread it must be right. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 19:58, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator

Thank you for your replies. As far as I understand, there are at least eight sources that say sources Iraqi Turkmen are Azari speakers and at least ten sources that claim they are Turkic speakers. I would like to ask each of you a different question to continue the dispute resolution.

• @Selçuk Denizli: Please briefly explain why you oppose mentioning that some sources call Iraqi Turkmen Azari speakers. You may discuss the quality of the other editors' sources if needed.
• @ReconditeRodent: Please bring a proposed text in with which you would agree.

--MrClog (talk) 13:46, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

No one's disputing that their language is Turkic, since South Azeri is a subcategory of Turkic. Turkmeni has historically been called Turkish when listed as an official language but no one's arguing that from a linguistic perspective. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 16:58, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

ReconditeRodent, thank you for the clarification. --MrClog (talk) 19:00, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Second statement by editors

Do not engage with each other!
Selçuk Denizli:

I am opposed to three issues: the use of non-linguistic sources, the use of sources which are not peer-reviewed, and the use of studies which do not focus on the Iraqi Turkmen.

Unfortunately, the list provided by User:John Francis Templeson is full of contradictions and inaccuracies by the authors and have been taken out of context on Wikipedia. For example, although Professor Hendrik Boeschoten does say there is "a Turkish – or rather Azerbaijanian – speaking part of the population" he lists the language/people as "Iraq Turkmens" not Turkish nor Azerbaijianian and gives an incorrect population of 400,000 in 2015 (see page 5). (Please note that the Iraqi census of 1957/59 shows that there was 567,000 Iraqi Turkmen who listed their mother tongue as "Turkish", forming 9% of the population). Similarly, there are problems with Dr. Hidayet Kemal Bayatlı's work: he calls the Iraqi Turkmen dialects "Irak Türkmen Türkçesi" (Iraqi Turkmen Turkish) but then says: "The language spoken by the Iraqi Turkmen falls under Azeri (Eastern Oghuz)" (page 329); however, Azeri falls under Western Oghuz not Eastern Oghuz, which again shows incorrect information. The sources by Gerhard Doerfer focus on Iran not Iraq, these are not studies on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects.

I do appreciate User:ReconditeRodent's attempt to help us come to an agreement, but the footnotes he/she has listed from Dr Larry Clark's study does not provide evidence that Iraqi Turkmen are Azeri speakers, for the source says they "may number more than 200,000, who speak a western Oguz dialect closer to Azeri than to Turkish" (page 11). Whilst Clark says it is "closer to Azeri", he does not say it is Azeri, and an estimate of "more than 200,000" shows that the source is out of touch with the reality, for there was 567,000 Iraqi Turkmen speakers in 1957/59 (listed as "Turkish" at the time) and now there are over 3 million Iraqi Turkmen according to the Iraqi Ministry of Planning (2013).

We should avoid using random non-linguistic articles, such as the Radio Free Europe publication discussed above, because it will only open the floodgates in the future and cause further disputes. There are many websites which also claim that Iraqi Turkmen speak a Turkish dialect, such as the CIA World Factbook, Minority Rights Group International, and Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization (page 2). There are many scholars who have published books which say that Iraqi Turkmen is a Turkish dialect or that there are Turkish-speaking people in Iraq, such as Professor Charles Warren Hostler (page 12), Professor Yılmaz Çolak (page 16), Dr Henry Field (page 11)... the list is actually quite extensive... But I refrained from using these sources because, as I keep stressing, the language section should focus on linguistic, peer-reviewed, sources which focus on the Iraqi Turkmen dialect(s). Selçuk Denizli (talk) 17:52, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Also, so far not a single linguistic source has been provided that claims Iraqi Turkmen speak "South Azeri" so I do not understand why this would be suggested for an introduction. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 18:22, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

ReconditeRodent:

For the introductory paragraph of the language section:

The Iraqi Turkmen speak a western Oghuz language variously known as Turkmen/Turkoman, Turkmeni, Iraqi Turkmen, or Iraqi Turkic (to distinguish it from the Turkmen language of Turkmenistan). In linguistic sources it is usually referred to as a dialect of South Azeri, grouping it with the dialects in neighbouring Iran, although Christiane Bulut argues that it constitutes a “transitional dialect group” between South Azeri and Turkish due to heavy influence from the latter. Iraqi Turkmen themselves tend to view their language as a dialect of Turkish, which is used as a prestige language and the official written language.

Other than that I'd be mostly happy to leave things as they are, with Selçuk's new introduction as the second paragraph and the "Classification of dialects" section removed since it's a mess. The line "Iraqi-Turkic is said to be particularly close to the Turkish dialects of Diyarbakır and Urfa in south-eastern Turkey." can probably be reincorporated somewhere, bearing in mind that the source itself says "[Bulut] concludes that the dialects originally display numerous features of the Afshar or Southern Oghuz group but also exhibit similarities with certain southeastern Anatolian dialects as those of Urfa and Diyarbekir." ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 16:58, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Apparently Diyarbakır is also closer to Azeri than Turkish, and some shared features "may be due to the presence of the [otherwise South Azeri-speaking] Bayat tribe" in eastern Anatolia. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 20:18, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Third statement by moderator

Thank you for your responses.

• @ReconditeRodent: Could you please comment on the concerns brought up by Selçuk Denizli?
• @Selçuk Denizli: Could you please bring up a proposed text that you would agree with?

--MrClog (talk) 14:20, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

@ReconditeRodent and Selçuk Denizli: Reminder. :) --MrClog (talk) 10:14, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Third statement by editors

Selçuk Denizli:

Sorry for my late reply. ReconditeRodent had expressed removing the "Classification of dialects" heading, so I have written an introduction with that in mind:

The western Oghuz dialects spoken by the Iraqi Turkmen are often called "Iraq Turkmen", "Iraqi Turkmen Turkish", and "Iraqi Turkic". Officially, Iraq had recognized "Turkish" as a minority language in 1932, until the military junta introduced the names "Turkman" and "Turkmanja" in 1959. Today, the Iraqi Constitution of 2005 recognizes the Iraqi Turkmen dialects as "Turkmen/Turkomen".

With regard to phonology, vocabulary, morphology and syntax, the Iraqi Turkmen varieties show autochthonous items as well as traces of both Ottoman Turkish and Azeri Turkic. Some linguists have said that the Iraqi Turkmen dialects are closer to Azeri than Turkish, whilst others have described it as an "Azeri", "Turkish", or "Eastern Anatolian" dialect. Professor Christiane Bulut has said that publications from Azerbaijan often use expressions such as “Azeri (dialects) of Iraq” or “South Azeri” with political implications; yet, in Turcological literature, closely related dialects in Turkey and Iraq are generally referred to as "eastern Anatolian" or "Iraq-Turkic/-Turkman" dialects, respectively.

The Iraqi Turkmen dialects show numerous features with Afshar or Southern Oghuz groups, as well as similarities with southeastern Anatolian dialects – such as Urfa and Diyarbekir. Turkish as a prestige language has exerted a profound influence on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects; thus, the syntax in Iraqi Turkmen differs sharply from neighboring Irano-Turkic varieties. Iraqi Turkmens themselves tend to view their language as a dialect of Turkish ("Irak Türkmen Türkçesi"), and their written language is based on the Modern Turkish alphabet. Diglossia in Iraq-Turkic and Turkish (of Turkey) has become a widespread phenomenon due to the increasing influence of Turkish culture and private Turkish schools.

In addition to their mother tongue, Iraqi Turkmen are often bilingual or trilingual. Arabic is acquired through the mass media and state education whilst Kurdish is acquired in their neighbourhoods and through intermarriage.

References

Selçuk Denizli (talk) 15:20, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

ReconditeRodent:

• While mistakes don’t invalidate someone’s work as a whole, the only thing Selçuk has brought up which strikes me as a likely mistake is Bayatlı putting Azerbaijani as Eastern Oghuz. Our page on Azerbaijani seems to do the same thing but unless it’s an alternative model excluding Turkmenistani they probably mean to say it’s part of the Eastern branch of Western Oghuz. As for the rest:
  • Different population figures may be due to estimates from different sources (given this is largely before the internet as well), which can also differ for political reasons, different criteria for who to count, and republication.
  • “a Turkish – or rather Azerbaijanian – speaking part of the population” obviously means “a Turkish-speaking – or rather Azerbaijani-speaking – part of the population” not “a Turkish – or rather Azerbaijani – part of the population who can speak” so the ethnonym doesn’t need to change. I’d appreciate it if we could not spend any more time on trying to discredit and re-credit every source based on irrelevant trivialities and wilful misinterpretation.
• Other sources referring to Iraqi Turkmen as Turkish exist because all these languages (including “Azeri”) are sometimes called “Turkish” (and “Türkçesi” in Turkish and so on), especially historically. The idea of Iraqi Turkmen being a dialect of modern Turkish, meanwhile, is based either on cultural factors or confusion caused by the previous usage, which is why I felt it was pretty much covered by the self-identification bit and the (would-be) following paragraph. The “Azeri” label, by contrast, stems from (albeit sparse) linguistic research. Even Christiane Bulut seems to acknowledge (as we’ve been over on Talk:Iraqi Turkmen) that the Iraqi Turkmen dialects are closer to Azeri than Turkish, at least historically.
• Gerhard Doerfer is an expert, and cites the following for the claim that the language of the Iraqi Turkmen is “Azeri” in the peer-reviewed Encyclopedia Iranica:
  • Choban Khıdır Haydar, İrak türkmen ağızları, dissertation, Istanbul, 1979.
  • M. Š. Širäliev, “K voprosu ob izuchenii i klassifikatsii azerbaĭdzhanskikh dialektov,” Izvestiya azerbaĭdzhanskogo filiala Akademii Nauk SSSR, 1941, 1944.

He says the same thing in his paper, citing the work of Sadettin Buluç (from earlier if you remember), who Bulut also cites regularly.

• And since I’m here have some more sources:
  • GÖKDAĞ, Bilgehan A. (2019). “Telafer Ağzı”. Karadeniz Araştırmaları. XVI/61: 102-119.
  • Atsız GÖKDAĞ, Bilgehan (2012). "Some Notes on the Morphology of the Iraqi Turkmen Dialect". International Journal Of Turkish Literature Culture Education. 1 (1): 113–123. doi:10.7884/teke.15.
  • Collin, R.O. (2009) Words of war: the Iraqi Tower of Babel, International Studies Perspectives, 10(3),pp. 245–264. “The Turkmen or Turcoman population of Iraq speaks a dialect of Turkish, which Ethnologue ⁄ISO accurately classifies as Southern Azerbaijani (AZB), despite the fact that most Iraqi Turkmen would reject this label and look to Ankara in Turkey as a cultural focus, rather than Azerbaijan.”
• North and South Azeri are distinct enough for Ethnologue to consider them separate languages, even though, much like how all these languages are sometimes called “Turkish”, they are both often called “Azeri”. I found another piece by Bulut:
  • Idor, Erik; Theander, Gren (1997). Orientalia Suecana (in German). Almquist & Wiksell Periodical Company. p. 9. [translated] The literature has long noted similarities between Iraqi Turkmen and certain southeast Anatolian dialects around the region of of Urfa/Diyarbekir. On the other hand, the Iraqi Turkmen dialects are often labelled "Azeri". Even the classification given by Hussein Shahbaz Hassan (1979), one of the few experts on the subject, is extremely vague: "The Kerkuk dialect today, according [...] to our observations, is more or less a dialect of Azeri Turkic." (Hassan 1979:468)

It’s vague, as she goes on to explain, because Hussein means 'South Azeri' by Azeri Turkic, rather than Azerbaijani. As mentioned earlier, Ethnologue classes Iraqi Turkmen as South Azeri too, so we might as well be specific.

All that said, I’d like to modify my proposal a little:

The Iraqi Turkmen speak a western Oghuz language (Türki or Turkmanja) called Iraqi Turkmen or Iraqi Turkic. Linguistic sources generally group it with dialects in neighbouring Iran as “South Azeri”, although Christiane Bulut argues that it constitutes a “transitional dialect group” between South Azeri and Anatolian Turkish dialects due to heavy influence from the latter. Iraqi Turkmens themselves tend to view their language as a dialect of Turkish, which is used as a prestige language and the official written language.

References

Fourth statement by moderator

@Selçuk Denizli and ReconditeRodent: Thank you for your responses. I'm going to allow both of you to submit a text you think both of you could agree on, as well as providing a proposed text based upon the sources you have provided.

The sources provided seem to insinuate that most linguistic sources consider the language South Azeri, but there are also sources that call it Turkish, who should be given due weight. The text is (excluding wikilinking and refs):

The Iraqi Turkmen speak a western Oghuz language (Türki or Turkmanja) called Iraqi Turkmen or Iraqi Turkic. Linguistic sources often group it with dialects in neighbouring Iran as “South Azeri”, although Christiane Bulut argues that it constitutes a “transitional dialect group” between South Azeri and Anatolian Turkish dialects due to the heavy influence from the latter. Iraqi Turkmens themselves, as well as certain linguistic sources, tend to view their language as a dialect of Turkish ("Irak Türkmen Türkçesi"), and their written language is based on the Modern Turkish alphabet. Diglossia in Iraq-Turkic and Turkish (of Turkey) has become a widespread phenomenon due to the increasing influence of Turkish culture and private Turkish schools. In addition to their mother tongue, Iraqi Turkmen are often bilingual or trilingual. Arabic is acquired through the mass media and state education whilst Kurdish is acquired in their neighbourhoods and through intermarriage.

If you disagree with this text, please briefly explain why. As mentioned, you may submit a compromise of your own. --MrClog (talk) 15:48, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Fourth statement by editors

Selçuk Denizli:

I cannot support this, particularly the first sentence; no citations have been presented which perhaps explains why there are some inaccuracies. Specifically, there is confusion in the terminology: "Turki" is a historic Ottoman term, Lisan-ı Türki (i.e. تركی‎ لسان ) means "Ottoman/Turkish language" (just as Lisan-ı Farsi means Persian and Lisan-ı Arabî means Arabic); "Turkmanja" is a modern Iraqi political term introduced after the military junta. So "Turki" and "Turkmanja" are not synonymous. So far, hardly any of the sources mention South Azeri as the spoken language of the Iraqi Turkmen (sources that say it is close to it need to be written as such), so it cannot be presented as the majority opinion. Of the linguistic sources, Bulut mentions that Iraqi Turkmen shows traces of both South Azeri and Ottoman Turkish. Therefore, the Ottoman Turkish influence (i.e. not the Anatolian dialects, but the Ottoman administrative official language) must not be neglected either.

Whilst "Iraqi Turkmen" and "Iraqi Turkic" have been kept in the proposal, "Iraqi Turkish" should be included too, for it is the term used on the official map presented on the homepage of the the Turkic Languages Journal website (cited by ReconditeRodent and myself). The official recognition status (from 1932 to now) should not be deleted; nor should the source by Bernt Brendemon stating that it is an "Eastern Anatolian" dialect, or the source by Lars Johanson stating that the Iraqi Turkmen syntax differs "sharply" from Irano-Turkic. By removing all this from the main heading, the section is no longer neutral -- basically, the first sentence is not representative of the larger influences; rather, it is a reminder of the popular pan-Turkists rhetoric which wishes to join Turkey, Azerbaijan, and Iranian Azerbaijan as one nation through the Iraqi Turkmens -- we should avoid such a dangerous path. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 14:10, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I have written another proposal with hopes that this would suit us all:

The Iraqi Turkmen speak a western Oghuz language, historically called Türkî, which is often referred to as "Iraqi Turkmen", "Iraqi Turkish", or "Iraqi Turkic" in linguistic sources. Officially, Iraq had recognized Turkish as a minority language in 1932, until the military junta introduced the names "Turkman" and "Turkmanja" in 1959. Since 2005, the Iraqi Turkmen dialects are recognized as a minority language called "Turkmen/Turkomen". The Iraqi Turkmen varieties show autochthonous items as well as traces of both Ottoman Turkish and Azeri Turkic. Some linguists have said that the Iraqi Turkmen dialects are closer to Azeri than Turkish or that it is an "Azeri" dialect. Iraqi Turkmens themselves, as well as some linguistic sources, tend to view their language as a dialect of Turkish, or, more specifically, an "Eastern Anatolian" dialect, which they refer to as "Irak Türkmen Türkçesi". Turkish as a prestige language has exerted a profound influence on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects; thus, the syntax in Iraqi Turkmen differs sharply from neighboring Irano-Turkic varieties. The written language of the Iraqi Turkmens is based on the Modern Turkish alphabet, which was adopted in 1997. Diglossia in Iraq-Turkic and Turkish (of Turkey) has become a widespread phenomenon due to the increasing influence of Turkish culture and private Turkish schools. In addition to their mother tongue, Iraqi Turkmen are often bilingual or trilingual. Arabic is acquired through the mass media and state education whilst Kurdish is acquired in their neighbourhoods and through intermarriage.

Selçuk Denizli (talk) 15:04, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: Since ReconditeRodent insisted on using Larry V. Clark's Turkmen Reference Grammar, I draw attention to page 19 where he lists "Eastern Anatolian" under Western Oguz > 1) "Turkish" > d) "Eastern Anatolian dialects". Selçuk Denizli (talk) 20:18, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

• Selçuk Denizli, would you be OK if Some linguists have said that the Iraqi Turkmen dialects are closer to Azeri than Turkish is changed to "most linguistists" per the prior discussion? --MrClog (talk) 17:53, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

MrClog, the word "most" is subjective; I could also provide vague literature, similar to the citations referring to "Azeri", which claim it as "Turkish". But I used the word "some" because it is more neutral.

ReconditeRodent's proposal below (signed at 16:13, 30 May 2019 (UTC)) is selective with citations, favoring "Azeri" -- to the point that a journal citation has been given without information on the name of the article or its author (i.e. "Idor, Erik; Theander, Gren (1997). Orientalia Suecana"). Furthermore, footnotes from Clark (1998) have simply been copy-pasted without any verification: what does Овезов-Каджаров 1993 etc. actually say? If this information cannot be provided then it should not be cited. Clark (1998) is enough.

In my proposals, I've compromised by including sources insisted by ReconditeRodent (including Clark, 1998; Bayatlı 1996); yet, ReconditeRodent has removed all the English studies on Iraqi Turkmen dialects -- which, in fact, do not mention Iraqi Turkmen dialects as Azerbaijani (i.e. Christiane Bulut -- not in ReconditeRodent's footnotes, Lars Johanson, Bernt Brendemon). Why does their new proposal omit the fact that Iraqi Turkmen dialects are also called "Iraqi Turkish" and "Iraqi Turkmen Turkish"? Why not mention the legal status? Why cite Hendrik Boeschoten's article yet omit using the studies of all other linguists who have also contributed to the Turkic Languages Journal? Why continue to cited Ethnologue when I have pointed out that the website contradicts itself: it lists "Azerbaijani, South: 2,004,000" and then further down the SAME list it says "Turkmen: 400,000", see:"Iraq:Language", so how can this be relied upon? A non-linguistic source (i.e. Richard Oliver Collin) cannot "validate" this pro-Ethnologue argument -- especially since there is clearly confusion on their website.

I have been willing to include studies on Iraqi Turkmen dialects which say "Azeri", however, I refuse to accept a proposal which does not also mention the Ottoman Turkish and Anatolian traces. As a native speaker, the last proposal below is actually offensive -- it completely disregards the fact that Iraqi Turkmen has autochthonous items as well as traces of both Ottoman Turkish and Azeri Turkic. Imagine you were on Turkish Wikipedia writing on the Canadian English article that it has "elements of both British English and American English, as well as many uniquely Canadian characteristics" (as the article quite rightly says) and then I come in, as someone with no knowledge of English, and continuously use vague sources to write proposals saying it is American English.... This is what is going on here.

One last comment in this very long post (which I sincerely apologize for), Tekin's study groups the "Kerkuk and Erbil dialects" in the subgroup that says "gal" rather than "kal", but Cypriot Turkish also uses "gal" rather than "kal", that does not make Cypriot Turks Azeri-speakers. This is shown in all Cypriot Turkish dictionaries. In fact, Lars Johanson (2009) touches on similarities with Iraqi Turkic and Cypriot Turkish and Balkan Turkish dialects in his article "Modals in Turkic (see p.502. p.503-04, respectively) and places Iraqi Turkic as separate, though similar, with Azeri (p.493). Selçuk Denizli (talk) 20:27, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

References

ReconditeRodent: I'm okay including a mention that some sources call the language Turkish on the basis of the Studies in Turkish Linguistics citation, but I would ideally request changing "certain linguistic sources" to "a few linguistic sources", since none of the others cited by Selçuk qualify as linguistic and none discuss the classification, and also because of the ambiguity mentioned earlier.

I had also been thinking that modern Turkish Turkish was the written language based on Bulut's description of how hard it is to find written transcripts but maybe I've got that wrong.

Overall, though, I think it's excellent and prioritises information very well. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 00:40, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

If this is continuing I was also wondering if anyone can give me a link to Bernt Brendemon's article for context since at least one classification system I've found refers to "East Anatolian dialects of Azerbaijani".

@ReconditeRodent: How do you feel about the proposal of Selçuk, specifically if the suggestion I left is implemented? --MrClog (talk) 17:53, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

@MrClog: I think it puts a little too much emphasis on official recognition throughout history by putting it first (I'm happy for it to be in a later paragraph). It doesn't make clear that when people call the language "Azeri", they generally mean the "Azeri" of Iran, as Bulut explains. The "autochthonous" line is a little clunky, being lifted directly from the source, doesn't link up with anything in the rest of the text as far as I can tell, and could also be misunderstood as suggesting an 'original' non-Turkic language or one that didn't already fall within the west Oghuz spectrum. "Eastern Anatolian" is primarily a geographic term, so I'd still like to see the context for the line which calls it an "Eastern Anatolian" dialect, and preferably a second linguistic source referring to the language as Turkish (particularly in a context which implies in some way that this is as opposed to Azeri). Though it's also lifted, I like the "syntax" line and would probably put it later since it's arguably a little arbitrary for the intro, but we can include it if necessary. Since you've already proposed a version which I would accept I think it would be easier to work forwards from that based on Selçuk's specific criticisms. I've made a preliminary attempt based on some of the comments:

The Iraqi Turkmen speak a western Oghuz language called Iraqi Turkmen or Iraq-Turkic. According to Christiane Bulut, it constitutes a “transitional dialect group” between the Turkic dialects of northwest Iran and eastern Anatolia, within the continuum between (South) Azeri and Turkish. While linguistic sources generally say it is closer to Azeri (as spoken in Iran), Iraqi Turkmens themselves tend to view their language as a dialect of Turkish. Diglossia in Iraq-Turkic and Turkish has become a widespread phenomenon due to the increasing influence of Turkish culture and private Turkish schools. Turkish is also used as the official written language. Additionally, many Iraqi Turkmen learn Arabic through mass media and state education whilst Kurdish is acquired in their neighbourhoods and through intermarriage.

─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 16:13, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Notes

Fifth statement by editors

First of all, let me restate ReconditeRodent's proposal:

The Iraqi Turkmen speak a western Oghuz language called Iraqi Turkmen or Iraq-Turkic. According to Christiane Bulut, it constitutes a “transitional dialect group” between the Turkic dialects of northwest Iran and eastern Anatolia, within the continuum between (South) Azeri and Turkish. While linguistic sources generally say it is closer to Azeri (as spoken in Iran), Iraqi Turkmens themselves tend to view their language as a dialect of Turkish. Diglossia in Iraq-Turkic and Turkish has become a widespread phenomenon due to the increasing influence of Turkish culture and private Turkish schools. Turkish is also used as the official written language. Additionally, many Iraqi Turkmen learn Arabic through mass media and state education whilst Kurdish is acquired in their neighbourhoods and through intermarriage.

Now, let's take this as a starting point to work towards a text that we both can agree on.

• First, @Selçuk Denizli, please make a bulleted list in which you state all things you want added/removed from the text, plus a brief explanation why that change is necessary. (Don't modify the proposal, simply state the problems you have with it.)
• Then, @ReconditeRodent, please address the concerns of Selçuk by either modifying the proposal or explaining why you don't think the problems need to be addressed.

Thank you, --MrClog (talk) 11:27, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

References

Notes

Fifth statement by editors

Selçuk Denizli:

I do appreciate the fact that ReconditeRodent has admitted to being harsh, but the Iraqi Turkmen dialects range from region to region and this simply has not been represented in the discussion -- some are closer to Turkish dialects in Turkey and others to Iran (one of the sources cited by ReconditeRodent actually says this, as I will show below). For this reason, I have written another proposal which I will place below MrClog's request for a statement/reaction to ReconditeRodent's proposal. I felt the need to do this for two reasons: 1) there has been a lot of inaccurate statements made and confusion through the sources; 2) I feel it would be unfair if we only focus on a proposal by ReconditeRodent, rather than both of our proposals (perhaps coming to an agreement through merging?).

Firstly, Mrclog's request:

To keep/add:
In general I do not have a problem with the 2nd to 4th sentences, and I'm willing to keep Bayatlı (1996), Clark (1998), and Boeschoten (2008 - written in your footnotes as "Lars Johanson; Éva Ágnes Csató Johanson") as a compromise. I'm also fine to use Gökdağ (2019), however, this source has been taken out of context. Whilst he says on p.103 that it can be "evaluated" ("değerlendirebileceğimiz") with "Azeri", he also says that "It shows significant similarities ("büyük benzerlikler") to the dialects spoken in South Azerbaijan, Tehran and Saveh in Iran and Urfa, Diyarbakır, Elazığ, Gaziantep in Turkey"... he then says that Iraqi Turkmen has two main groups: group "Y" (Tal Afar -- which is the most populous Turkmen region, see p.104 -- Altun Kupri, Tuz Khurmatu, Taza Khurmatu, Kifri, Bashir, and Amirli dialects) show unity with the Eastern Anatolian dialect of Urfa, whilst group "v" (Kirkuk, Erbil, Dohuk, Mandali, and Khanaqin) show similarities with Tehrani and Afshar dialects... So the similarities with Eastern Turkey should be included too... then on page 105 he says that Iraqi Turkmen under the age of 18 now speak Istanbul Turkish (because of education), and on page 106 he says that the Iraqi Turkmen outside the borders (i.e. immigrants) also use Turkish of Turkey.

Linguistic sources also show that there are similarities with Cypriot and Balkan Turkish, which I have provided in my proposal below.

To delete

• The first sentence would need to be completely rewritten, emphasizing how the dialects range region to region (some dialects might be similar to South Azeri but not all are)
• Footnote 1 (i.e. "Овезов-Каджаров 1993: 141, 185–187; cf. [Sâdettin] Buluç 1966 [Kerkük hoyratlarına dair], 1979 [Teknik Resim Uygulamalari-macit], [Abdullatif] Benderoğlu 1976, Дурдысв-Кадыров 1991: 50–53") should be deleted because none of this has been verified, Clark (1998) is enough.
• In Footnote 2
  • Encyclopædia Iranica should be deleted because it only mentions Kirkuk and northern Iraq. Iraqi Turkmen live throughout the country and the dialects range considerably.
  • "Lars Johanson; Éva Ágnes Csató Johanson" should be corrected, these are not the author just the editors.
• Footnote 3 should be deleted, it is an incomplete citation with no author or article given for verification.
• Footnote 4 should be deleted, because ethnologue lists "South, Azeri" and "Turkmen" as separate -- there is clearly confusion here.
• Footnote 5 should be deleted because it is not a linguistic source.

First proposal in Fifth Statement
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The western Oghuz dialects spoken by the Iraqi Turkmen are often referred to as "Iraqi Turkmen", "Iraqi Turkmen Turkish" (Irak Türkmen Türkçesi), "Iraqi Turkish" (Irak Türkçesi), and "Iraqi Turkic". As well as possessing their own unique characteristics, the Iraqi Turkmen dialects have been influenced by the historical standards of Ottoman Turkish and Azeri Turkic. Therefore, the Iraqi Turkmen dialects – which vary region to region – show similarities with Turkic dialects spoken in Iran (i.e. South Azerbaijan, Tehran, and Saveh) and Turkey (i.e. Urfa, Diyarbakır, Elazığ, and Gaziantep). In general, the Iraqi Turkmen dialects of Tal Afar (approx 700,000 speakers), Altun Kupri, Tuz Khurmatu, Taza Khurmatu, Kifri, Bashir, and Amirli show unity with the Eastern Anatolian dialect of Urfa, whilst the dialects in Kirkuk, Erbil, Dohuk, Mandali, and Khanaqin show similarities with Tehrani and Afshar dialects. Yet, the Kirkuk dialect also shows comparable features with Urfa, and the Erbil dialect with Turkish dialects in Kosovo, Rize, Erzurum, and Malatya. Indeed, Turkish as a prestige language has exerted a profound influence on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects; thus, the syntax in Iraqi Turkmen differs sharply from neighboring Irano-Turkic varieties. Collectively, the Iraqi Turkmen dialects show similarities with Cypriot Turkish and Balkan Turkish regarding modality, and the written language of all the Iraqi Turkmen is based on the modern Turkish alphabet. Iraqi Turkmens themselves (according to the 1957/59 census), as well as some linguistic sources, tend to view their language as "Turkish", or an "Eastern Anatolian" dialect, although some linguists place the dialects closer to Azeri, or under an "Azeri" dialect. Nonetheless, diglossia in Iraq-Turkic and Turkish (of Turkey) has become a widespread phenomenon due to the increasing influence of Turkish culture and private Turkish schools. Besides their traditional dialects, the Iraqi Turkmen diaspora also communicate in standard Turkish (of Turkey), whilst the younger generations in Iraq (below the age of 18 in 2019) speak Istanbul Turkish with ease. Most Iraqi Turkmen can also speak Arabic and/or Kurdish. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 23:46, 2 June 2019 (UTC) References

or what about:

Second proposal in Fifth Statement
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The western Oghuz dialects spoken by the Iraqi Turkmen are often referred to as "Iraqi Turkmen", "Iraqi Turkmen Turkish", "Iraqi Turkish", and "Iraqi Turkic". The Iraqi Turkmen dialects possess their own unique characteristics, but have been also been influenced by the historical standards of Ottoman Turkish and Azeri Turkic. Iraqi Turkmens themselves (according to the 1957/59 census), as well as some linguistic sources, tend to view their language as "Turkish", which they call Irak Türkmen Türkçesi or Irak Türkçesi. Some linguists have also described Iraqi Turkmen as an "Eastern Anatolian" dialect, or closer to Azeri, or an "Azeri" dialect. In general, the Iraqi Turkmen dialects of Tal Afar (approx 700,000 speakers), Altun Kupri, Tuz Khurmatu, Taza Khurmatu, Kifri, Bashir, and Amirli show unity with the Eastern Anatolian dialect of Urfa; meanwhile, the dialects in Kirkuk, Erbil, Dohuk, Mandali, and Khanaqin show similarities with Tehrani and Afshar dialects. Yet, the Kirkuk dialect also shows comparable features with Urfa, and 21.4% of the province's population had self-declared their mother tongue as "Turkish" in the last census which asked about language. In addition, the Erbil dialect shows similarities with Turkish dialects in Kosovo, Rize, Erzurum, and Malatya. Indeed, Turkish as a prestige language has exerted a profound influence on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects, and diglossia in Iraq-Turkic and Turkish (of Turkey) has become a widespread phenomenon; thus, the syntax in Iraqi Turkmen differs sharply from neighboring Irano-Turkic varieties. Collectively, the Iraqi Turkmen dialects show similarities with Cypriot Turkish and Balkan Turkish regarding modality, and the written language of all the Iraqi Turkmen is based on the modern Turkish alphabet. Besides their traditional dialects, the Iraqi Turkmen diaspora also communicate in standard Turkish (of Turkey), whilst the younger generations in Iraq (below the age of 18 in 2019) speak Istanbul Turkish with ease. Most Iraqi Turkmen can also speak Arabic and/or Kurdish. References Selçuk Denizli (talk) 15:23, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Having taken ReconditeRodent's comment regarding detail (length?) into consideration, perhaps this could work (with discussion of the use of "most" or "some" to follow? -- as of yet, we only have one source, Ethnologue, that claims South Azeri, alongside "Turkmen"):

Additional comment: instead of "some" or "most" (the latter is very subjective!), I think the word "numerous" could work.

Language (Heading) The western Oghuz dialects spoken by the Iraqi Turkmen are often referred to as "Iraqi Turkmen/Turkman", "Iraqi Turkmen Turkish", "Iraqi Turkish", and "Iraqi Turkic". The Iraqi Turkmen dialects possess their own unique characteristics, but have also been influenced by the historical standards of Ottoman Turkish and Azeri Turkic. Iraqi Turkmens themselves (according to the 1957/59 census), as well as some linguistic sources, tend to view their language as a "Turkish" dialect, which they call Irak Türkmen Türkçesi or Irak Türkçesi. Some linguists have also described Iraqi Turkmen as an "Eastern Anatolian" dialect, or similar to the "Southeastern Anatolian dialects" of Urfa and Diyarbakır. Yet, studies on Iraqi Turkmen are vague; some linguists have said it is closer to Azeri, whilst numerous linguists have placed Iraqi Turkmen, particularly the Kirkuk dialect as "more or less", an "Azeri Turkish" dialect, showing similarities with Turkic dialects spoken in Iran (South Azerbaijan, Tehran, and Saveh) and Turkey (Urfa, Diyarbakır, Elazığ, and Gaziantep). Ethnologue lists "Azerbaijani, South" and "Turkmen" separately in Iraq, the latter displaying "heavy Turkish and Arabic influences lexically with some Azeri features". Collectively, the Iraqi Turkmen dialects also show similarities with Cypriot Turkish and Balkan Turkish regarding modality, and the written language of all the Iraqi Turkmen is based on the modern Turkish alphabet. Indeed, modern Turkish as a prestige language has exerted a profound influence on the Iraqi Turkmen dialects; thus, the syntax in Iraqi Turkmen differs sharply from neighboring Irano-Turkic varieties. Besides their traditional dialects, the Iraqi Turkmen diaspora also communicate in standard Turkish (of Turkey), whilst the younger generations in Iraq (below the age of 18 in 2019) speak Istanbul Turkish with ease. In addition, diglossia in Iraq-Turkic and Turkish (of Turkey) has become a widespread phenomenon. Most Iraqi Turkmen can also speak Arabic and/or Kurdish.

Iraqi Turkmen dialects (Sub-heading)

In general, the Iraqi Turkmen dialects of Tal Afar (approx 700,000 speakers), Altun Kupri, Tuz Khurmatu, Taza Khurmatu, Kifri, Bashir, and Amirli show unity with the Eastern Anatolian dialect of Urfa; meanwhile, the dialects in Kirkuk, Erbil, Dohuk, Mandali, and Khanaqin show similarities with Tehrani and Afshar

Turkic dialects. Yet, the Kirkuk dialect also shows comparable features with Urfa, and 21.4% of Kirkuk province's population had self-declared their mother tongue as "Turkish" in the last census which asked about language. In addition, the Erbil dialect shows similarities with Turkish dialects stretching from Kosovo to Rize, Erzurum, and Malatya.

References

Selçuk Denizli (talk) 13:25, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

ReconditeRodent: I'll admit I've been a bit harsh. I can see Selçuk is trying to compromise and I hope they can see that I am too.

• You're right that the citation should say Christiane Bulut – I was using this Google Books formatting tool to save time.
• I thought it would be helpful to give the original sources in case anyone can find them, or in case the link fails (though unlikely), especially since the Clark source is secondary/tertiary (depending on how you look at it). (Cf. WP:SAYWHEREYOUREADIT.)
• I didn't mean to suggest the other sources should be excluded, I just thought it'd save time to only cite the controversial information for now since these proposals keep getting revised.
• I don't want to delete the legal status info, it just seems secondary to me (especially the historical info) so I'd rather it was in a later paragraph. The fact that it's a currently an official language is probably the most that should be in the first paragraph and even that doesn't really give you much insight into the linguistics or culture of it.
• There are a million things this language has been called (remember the earlier drafts?), and I can't find anyone calling it "Iraqi Turkish" other than that map (and I'm not sure being on the website of a publisher automatically makes a map reliable) which is why I took it out. If Selçuk finds a few more citations I guess I don't mind that much about including it.
• The mistake in Ethnologue (assuming it is) probably comes from careless sources like these, and (per earlier) doesn't invalidate it as a whole. In any case, I only mentioned it because it determines whether the language gets its own ISO code or not.
• I'm not saying the "autochthonous" line is wrong, just that it could be clearer. Maybe like: "As well as possessing their own unique characteristics, the Iraqi Turkmen dialects have been influenced by the historical standards of Ottoman Turkish and Azeri Turkic."
• Lastly, I'm not suggesting we use any of the classification systems in Tekin, I was trying to explain why a source calling the Turkmen dialects "Eastern Anatolian" can't be assumed to mean they're calling them Turkish.

─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 12:34, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

ReconditeRodent, could you address the new concerns listed by Selçuk in his section above? --MrClog (talk) 17:57, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

@ReconditeRodent: reminder :) - also, Selçuk has made a proposal of his own. --MrClog (talk) 15:32, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Lots of the new stuff looks good, though I wouldn't put so much detail in the first paragraph. (Unrelated but I also think it would be good to have the URLs where at all possible.) It's nice that this process has led to lots of new information that will get included, thanks to Selçuk. The only reason I ended up moving towards calling the Iraqi Turkmen dialects a "language" was because it's easier to write about (and since lots of things we call languages which have very broad dialectal variation) but I'm happy to change it back. Ultimately though, I feel the only thing we really need answered is whether we should say that "most" linguistic sources say Iraqi Turkmen is closer to Azeri/South Azeri than Turkish or just "some". I'd like to request permission to call an RfC to resolve this. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 19:58, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

References

Final comment by volunteer

@Selçuk Denizli and ReconditeRodent: It seems you have agreed on a text, and I have opened an RfC for the "some"/"most" sources dispute here. Are you OK with me closing this dispute resolution request as resolved? --MrClog (talk) 15:19, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Nearly happy, except

• Bulut, as well as Ethnologue, specifies that that classification more specifically refers to the dialects they speak in Iran, which is clearly vital if they're distinct enough to be considered separate languages
• all the sources on the English names of the Iraq-Turkmen dialects should be in English, naturally
• "Eastern Anatolian" still seems to be a geographic term, not a linguistic one
• I'd like some of the removed citations to be restored, particularly the Orientalia Suecana one with the Bulut quote, Gökdağ, and the Encyclopedia Iranica (it can be in the same ref tag as the other one by Doerfer), as well as the The Turkic Languages one since we're also accepting the passing mention in Studies in Turkish Linguistics
• the line about Cypriot and Balkan Turkish strikes me as undue (at least in the intro)
• I'd still like all citations to be linked, and a chance to review the context of the new sources which supposedly argue that the dialects are mostly closer to Turkish (which I realise now I've been reading as Standard Turkish and Selçuk has been reading as any dialect of Turkish)

─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 17:23, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

I am happy to close this with my final proposal (if this is also ok with ReconditeRodent), it has been a long dispute but we managed to really delve into the topic -- so thank you for your assistance. I have made the suggestion to use the neutral word "numerous" rather than "some" or "most", which I truly believe is an objective and accurate way to describe/"measure" this. Fingers crossed we are nearly there. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 17:12, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Selçuk Denizli, could you in the meantime try to address the comments of ReconditeRodent? (The RfC will take 30 days, so we have enough time to make some small edits to the final text.) --MrClog (talk) 18:07, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

@ReconditeRodent:,

• Could you please be specific on which Bulut source you are referring to (we have used so much of her, so I'm confused by this comment)?
• The term "Eastern Anatolian dialect" is used in two of the Turkish sources that you have provided, so I'm not sure why this should be a problem.
• Regarding modals and similarity with Cypriot Turkish and Balkan Turkish, I have split the paragraph into two: the introduction is about the Iraqi Turkmen dialects collectively; the second paragraph is more in-depth, focusing on the two main branches of Iraqi Turkmen dialects. It is important to have this in the introduction because the modals differ from Turkey.
• I've provided full citations, fell free to link them -- I have no problem with this. I will slightly amend to read "Turkish dialect". Selçuk Denizli (talk) 18:19, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

@MrClog:, of course. I'm just slightly confused by a few points made. But will amend accordingly when ReconditeRodent gets back to me. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 18:21, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

I've amended. Please take a look and let me know your thoughts. Selçuk Denizli (talk) 19:13, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Pinging ReconditeRodent :) --MrClog (talk) 06:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

@ReconditeRodent: reminder --MrClog (talk) 14:24, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Talk:William Lane_Craig

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Squatch347 on 16:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:William Lane Craig (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Squatch347 (talk · contribs)
• Theroadislong (talk · contribs)
• ජපස (talk · contribs)
• GretLomborg (talk · contribs)
• Bill the Cat 7 (talk · contribs)
• Hob Gadling (talk · contribs)
• PaleoNeonate (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

These disputes started initially with the removal of a long standing quote on the William Lane Craig page. This was a quote and topic that had three prior talk page discussions with consensus over the last few years. It became a hotbed issue for a number of editors and resulted in changes being made to the page absent discussion on Talk or consensus. In the last few days it has attracted a number of new editors who have begun removing whole sections of the page absent any discussion on the talk page or clear wiki policy supporting the change.

I have little confidence given the emotion and POV level on the talk page that a rational discussion of these edits will occur. I think a return to status quo ante (say 20 may or so) would be a good place to start discussion on proposed changes.

I should highlight that there is no current "no changes allowed' type arguments here, the request has been for discussion on talk prior to removal of long-standing and repeatedly agreed to content.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have proposed three different suggested text changes to the relevant sections and proposed criteria for the removal of some content as recommended by editors. I have supported removal of several sections for streamlining and published relevant secondary sources when asked. Finally, I've been prompt and courteous in responding to requested changes on the talk page and not escalated discussion with personal attacks, but rather ignored several personal attacks and derogatory comments.

How do you think we can help?

I believe an emphasis on collaborative editing and a reminder of the wiki policies around biographies by Admins would help calm down the topic a bit. The debate appears to focus more on individual editors' attitudes toward the biography's subject than objective editing, so some monitoring of those edits would help as well.

Update: As Robert McClenon prepares to evaluate this case I'd like to update this requested assistance section to be more in line with where, I think, the discussion has evolved to and what the primary matters of contention are. I would propose this [1] as my summary of the issue at hand (specifically the second paragraph onward). The difference seems to be that some editors feel that any discussion of any topic, even in included in a WP:RS, that isn't fully confined to their conception of philosophy should not be included. The question comes down to, if a topic is published by a reputable source, should we be the arbiters of whether it is "vetted" or not?

Secondarily, I think mediation can help us work through the points proposed by [User:GretLomborg|GretLomborg] as points of consensus [2]:

1. William Lane Craig is a philosopher and a theologian, he is not a scientist.
2. Philosophy and theology are not pseudoscience.
3. The ideas of philosophers or theologians do not require the recognition of scientists to be covered in their biographies, even when they reference or comment upon scientific theories.
4. The article William Lane Craig is not a science article.
5. The overriding goal of a biography article should be to accurately describe its subject, his life, and his work. Following that goal is what is best for the encyclopedia and its readers.
6. The article William Lane Craig is a biography.
7. It is right and proper to directly attribute William Lane Craig's thoughts to himself in his biography.
8. As a biography of a philosopher and theologian, the article William Lane Craig should cover his thought. Examining the list of featured and good articles from the Philosophers [Biography] Task Force, this is common practice (e.g. Søren_Kierkegaard#Philosophy_and_theology, Bertrand_Russell#Views, and Karl_Popper#Philosophy).
9. None of William Lane Craig's philosophical or theological ideas should lack coverage, or have their coverage minimized, in his biography because an editor disagrees with them or believes them to be mistaken. That conflicts with the overriding goal of a biography to "accurately describe its subject, their life, and their work." In a biography we describe their ideas (and reactions to them) from a neutral point of view, even when we think their ideas are wrong.
10. The standard of inclusion of William Lane Craig's philosophical or theological ideas in the article should be: can the idea or position be attributed to him based on WP:RS, keeping in mind WP:BLPSELFPUB and WP:PRIMARYCARE. Sources from philosophy and theology are acceptable and sufficient. At one point, though perhaps not now, the William Lane Craig article was in dire need of further secondary sourcing, which I wholeheartedly support.
11. It's right and proper to reference criticism and critique of William Lane Craig in his biography if it can be reliably sourced and is not given improper emphasis.

Squatch347 (talk) 12:38, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Theroadislong

The article has been in a VERY poor state for some time, with far too much unsourced or primary sourced POV trumpery. All attempts to remove this have been reverted. This [3] would be a good place to start again as suggested by User:ජපස. Theroadislong (talk) 18:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by ජපස

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I reject this dispute resolution as the summary is not written neutrally. If the proposer would rewrite it WP:Writing for the enemy, I will consider undergoing dispute resolution. jps (talk) 22:41, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by GretLomborg

I got involved with this article when I noticed nearly every sentence in a basic biographical section was being challenged as "". Many of those facts were already sourced and easily verified in nearby references (sometimes ones even attached to the same sentence). I thought that was odd, so I spent a little time adding relatively easily found references for things like degrees held, etc. I've since been watching the page, and have seen this dispute unfold. My involvement has been limited to some clarifying comments on the talk page, and some reversions of a couple large deletions (one of nearly the entire article content).

The article's subject appears to work extensively in atheism/theism debates, and that's a recipe for conflict as we're seeing now. It appears that some editors object to the subject's ideas [4], and are attempting to excise as much article content as they possibly can, sometimes using spurious Wikipedia policy arguments to do so, or by claiming that sources don't support it without making a serious attempt at verification. I think that, despite whatever anyone thinks of the article's subject or his ideas, they should be summarized and represented neutrally, encyclopedically, and completely in his own biography article.

Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:56, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
After doing some research, it appears that one of the most disruptive editors in this dispute User:ජපස/jps has previously been topic-banned from a topic that he probably considers similar to the one of this article (see [5] [6]). He is being uncivil and aggressive by being snarky and sarcastic with other editors whom he opposes and not assuming good faith (see [7] [8] [9]). His behavior on this article may be a reprise of his previous problematic behavior. - GretLomborg (talk) 21:38, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Update: As of now [10], pretty much every sentence of the intro, biography, and career sections has one or more supporting cites to either a secondary source or a WP:BLPSELFPUB-acceptable source. This includes sections other editors wanted to WP:TNT. Other sections that were proposed to be WP:TNT'd appear to have always had support via secondary sources in WP:GENREFs (e.g. the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy's page on the Cosmological Argument), and I suspect that most if not all of the gaps can be filled in with secondary citations to academic book reviews in theology or philosophy journals, though some of those may only be available in print. I appeal to all the editors involved to make a good-faith efforts to find secondary sources and add inline citations. - GretLomborg (talk) 20:36, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Update 2: tl;dr: This dispute has been very fast moving, and I think we're past the WP:TNT stage. However I think it's still necessary to emphasize that in the biography of a philosopher/theologian, the subject's ideas should be summarized neutrally, encyclopedically, and completely. Even if every fiber of an editor's body is opposed to those ideas and their whole field of study, Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Writing_for_the_opponent and WP:OPPONENT mean they should still be included, and WP:BIASEDSOURCES means theological and Christian sources are acceptable, at least to outline the subject's views and reactions to them within that part of his academic community. - GretLomborg (talk) 18:24, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Bill the Cat 7

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Hob Gadling

It is easy to find out that the claim that the topic "had three prior talk page discussions with consensus over the last few years" is simply not true. There was never a consensus, there were always the same two sides, with various representatives, and the discussion just stopped in each case without anybody changing their stance. There are some users, like the filing editor, who want to keep every inappropriate part of the article that makes the person Craig look good and his opponents look bad, and who achieved that in every case by sheer persistence and by misrepresentation, instead of valid reasoning. For some reason, all except two of the recent editors who were anti-Came-quote (Theroadislong and ජපස) have not have not been notified here: User:AzureCitizen, User:Guettarda, User:FreeKnowledgeCreator and me. --Hob Gadling (talk) 20:58, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by PaleoNeonate

I am not used to DRN but have promised to look at the article so am offering my assessment. Apologetics are currently presented unduly like if they were mainstream scientific breakthroughs. There is no need to expand on what the Kalam argument is, for instance, to say that the author is a notable proponent. Another obvious problem is that most is editor commentary on the author's primary sources, rather than summaries of third party reviews of his work. —PaleoNeonate – 22:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Note by Drmies

This article, after the most recent revert by GrettLomborg, is in a terrible condition. jps's cleanup made sense to me. However, if jps wants this to be resolved, he should probably refrain from posting unacceptable personal attacks like this one. Drmies (talk) 15:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Talk:William Lane_Craig discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note - There has been discussion at the article talk page. The filing editor has not notified the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:40, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Apologies, I thought the template notified them. I have updated everyone now. Squatch347 (talk) 19:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• Volunteer Note - The filing editor has notified some but not all of the editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:38, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
• Volunteer Note - I will try in the next 24 hours to open this case for moderated discussion, but first:
  • • Stop editing the article.
    • Stop the personal attacks.
    • Read User:Robert McClenon/Mediation Rules, although I have not yet started moderated discussion.
    • Stop editing the article.
    • Stop the personal attacks.

Robert McClenon (talk) 03:16, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

First statement by moderator

I will try to moderate this discussion, at least for a little while. The article has been fully protected for a week. Leave it alone. After the full protection expires, leave it alone anyway. Read User:Robert McClenon/Mediation Rules, and comply with the rules. Be civil and concise. Both civility and conciseness have been in short supply on this article. Civility is required everywhere in Wikipedia, and especially in dispute resolution. Overly long statements are not useful. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Comment on content, not on contributors.

Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they think should be done to improve the article?

Robert McClenon (talk) 05:28, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

First statements by editors

My proposal for article improvement would involve two major areas of focus. 1) Review of the section currently called "Apologetics" to reflect areas of Apologetic positions and philosophical works. The goal of this would be to make the page more consistent with other philosophers' pages. See Alvin Plantinga or Daniel Dennett for example. In that effort each major section should be made concise, covering primarily a brief summary of the position, its notable points, and notable publications on the topic. 2) Referencing notability, a table of public debates and notable talks should be included. This is the main source of Craig's non-professional notability and warrants reference. The table should include; participants, topics, locations, notes. - Squatch347 (talk) 14:13, 18 June 2019 (UTC) Note: I copied Squatch347's sig up here to maintain readable attribution, as the latter half of his comment was rearranged to be at the bottom. - GretLomborg (talk) 21:11, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

The article can be improved by looking for third-party independent sources which discuss Craig's ideas and only including an explanation of the ideas about which third-party independent sources have commented. Furthermore, when an idea of Craig's is in the purview of a particular epistemic community (say, science, for example), the only third-party independent sources which should count are those which are produced by members of that community (say, scientists, for example). If there are no sources which comment upon a particular idea of Craig's from the relevant epistemic community, we should not include the idea in the article. jps (talk) 16:35, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

I think the article can be improved by fleshing out the "Apologetics" section (once more-neutrally labeled "Research" prior to this dispute) to give an appropriately complete account of the subject's thought and work. That is what's best for the readers of the encyclopedia and the article. Other content goals may take priority on other parts of Wikipedia, but not in a biography. The subject is clearly notable as a philosopher and theologian ([11] [12] for a few examples), and per WP:NNC, it's inappropriate force the article content of his biography to be subject to further notability evaluation. Furthermore, it's inappropriate to require some other field (e.g. physics) to validate the subject's thoughts and views in order to include them in his biography: if they can be verifiably attributed to him, they should be permitted to be included, regardless or whether they are correct or incorrect in the judgement of some editor. They're his thoughts, and one reads his biography to learn about them. I think this is the core issue, there are smaller implementation details that I won't get into now. - GretLomborg (talk) 21:50, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

A small note to the other editors here and the moderator. I will be offline as part of the national guard until 30 June. No issue with continuing resolution without me in the meantime of course, but I didn't want anyone to think I was ignoring them if questions or concerns came up. Sorry for the delay. Squatch347 (talk) 14:13, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Second Statement by Moderator

Okay. I had meant to ask each editor to give specifics about what they want changed in the article, and so I will do that now. However, here is a summary of what the editors have said:

1. Rework the Apologetics section, possibhly renaming it as Research.

2. Provide a table of Craig's public debates and talks.

3. Look for independent third-party sources.

4. Compare Craig's article to that on Plantinga. (Plantinga, like Craig, and unlike Dennett, is best known as a Christian philosopher.)

Will each editor please comment on those four points briefly?

Comments about what should not be included are not helpful unless they request to omit something in particular that is in the article.

Will each editor please list one or two specific changes that they think should be made to the article?

Robert McClenon (talk) 19:26, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Second Statements by Editors

1. Rework the Apologetics section, possibhly renaming it as Research.

Rework? Yes. Rename it "research"? No. That's a POV-push. jps (talk) 12:48, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

2. Provide a table of Craig's public debates and talks.

I see no purpose to this. WP:NOT#CV.

3. Look for independent third-party sources.

The most important thing we can do. These sources should be organized by their levels of independence and they should be from the relevant epistemic communities if they are talking about Craig's specific ideas.

4. Compare Craig's article to that on Plantinga. (Plantinga, like Craig, and unlike Dennett, is best known as a Christian philosopher.)

No. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a good game to play.

jps (talk) 12:48, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

1. Rework the Apologetics section, possibly renaming it as Research

NO.

2. Provide a table of Craig's public debates and talks.

NO.

3. Look for independent third-party sources.

YES the article still needs to be dramatically hacked back to what can be sourced from independent reliable secondary sources. On 12th June, out of the 124 sources, 71 were primary sources to his own book or website, this is not acceptable.

4. NO WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Theroadislong (talk) 13:07, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

1. Rework the Apologetics section, possibly renaming it as Research

   If "apologetics" is challenged, possibly that "views" may suit. Research suggests serious (possibly scientific) research and would be misleading.

2. Provide a table of Craig's public debates and talks

   Per WP:NOTCV, instead of a table, if some have particular notability they should be mentioned.

3. Look for independent third-party sources

   Absolutely, work about that already started.

4. Compare to the Platinga article

   The other article may itself need work, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS indeed applies. However, WP:BLP and MOS:BLP are more useful. —PaleoNeonate – 15:05, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

1. Rework the Apologetics section, possibly renaming it as Research

   Yes rework, but from a starting point closer to the pre-dispute version ([13]) than current version.

   I personally think the section should be named something along the lines of "Philosophy and Theology." "Research" is ok (it's not an activity limited to science and science-like activities), but I don't prefer it.

2. Provide a table of Craig's public debates and talks

   That seems like too much detail to me.

3. Look for independent third-party sources

   Yes, but in compliance with WP:NNC and understanding that WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD.

4. Compare to the Platinga article

   Yes, and perhaps others. WP:Some stuff exists for a reason.

- GretLomborg (talk) 20:16, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Third Statement by Moderator

One editor proposed four points of work. Those four points have been rejected, so we will not go there. I would like to thank User:GretLomborg. Proposing four changes that other editors don't want was useful. Now we have narrowed the field of changes.

Now, will each editor please identify one or two proposed changes that should be made to the article? List changes that have not already been discussed and that other editors can agree with or disagree with.

Third Statements by Editors

Note to moderator: the previous proposals were made by User:Squatch347, not me. I tried to fix a sig problem with his comments, which may be the source of the confusion. I also think the second round was closed before one side of the dispute could comment (as User:Squatch347 is on vacation and I didn't see the updates until now).

Here are some news proposals:

1. Re-integrate recently-removed content back into the article from the pre-dispute version [14], so that any issues with it can be discussed in this process. Per WP:NOCONSENSUS "In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit," (the matters here aren't "contentious matters related to living people", e.g. "John Doe is a racist axe-murderer"). If we can't do that, I think this process will have difficulties resolving the dispute.
2. Since it's universally agreed that the article would benefit from more secondary sources. Editors in this dispute should find secondary-source support for at least one sentence in the article that needs it. I've been doing this, and it isn't too hard. - GretLomborg (talk) 20:59, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

New proposal:

1. WP:TNT the article and start writing only using third-party independent sources. Sources written by Craig and his acolytes can be worked in later.

jps (talk) 13:10, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Waskom, Texas

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by WhisperToMe on 08:42, 20 June 2019 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Waskom, Texas (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved WhisperToMe (talk · contribs) Mkativerata (talk · contribs) John from Idegon (talk · contribs) Dispute overview There was a vote from the Waskom, Texas city council to ban abortion, even though abortion is allowed nationwide as per a Supreme Court ruling; this was covered in national newspapers. As of writing it is too early to tell how often/whether coverage of the same event will continue at national, statewide, and local levels. The question is whether this vote is a significant enough detail to include in the history of the town. One editor argues that as per WP:NOTNEWS it is not significant enough, while myself and another editor disagree. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I notified WikiProjects Texas and Politics, but not enough attention has come to the issue How do you think we can help? Help clarify whether/which events are significant enough to include in a topic on a small town which has a small population and ordinarily rarely gets national media coverage Summary of dispute by Mkativerata Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by John from Idegon Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Talk:Waskom, Texas discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer Note - There are two problems, one of which can be solved, and the other of which can be ignored or addressed. The first issue is that the filing editor has not notified the other editors. The second is that this appears to be a yes-no question, so that moderated discussion may not be likely to led to compromise. This noticeboard is primarily for moderated discussion leading to compromise. If this is a yes-no question, a Request for Comments may be more effective. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:03, 20 June 2019 (UTC) The filing editor has notified me and the other editor, by pinging us on the talk page of the article. It is a yes-no question, and in this case one side is clearly correct. So I agree there is likely to be little scope for "moderated discussion". --Mkativerata (talk) 20:50, 20 June 2019 (UTC) Ok! In that case I'll try an RFC. RFC has been filed. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:35, 21 June 2019 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Siniša Mali

– New discussion.

Filed by Runner369 on 23:19, 23 June 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Siniša Mali (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Runner369 (talk · contribs)
• PajaBG (talk · contribs)
• Primefac (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I made the complete overhaul of the article, reorganised information better and updating the most recent information in the case of PhD thesis plagiarism case. However, I was quite surprised that experienced editor PajaBG undo my version without any explanation. All references and statements in my version had a valid source, and the biggest part of the article was dedicated to the allegations and controversy. This gives everyone freedom to add counter-arguments and to question every claim that was presented in the article. Finally, my version is not intending to idealise anyone.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

No other steps were taken since I did not receive any feedback from the editor

How do you think we can help?

Well, it would be much better if non-biased editor supervise the whole process of editing this ambiguous article.

Summary of dispute by PajaBG

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Primefac

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Siniša Mali discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Hi @Runner369:, and thanks for your comments here and contributions so far. I've had a look at the discussion page and haven't unfortunately seen much discussion happen yet about the changes that you made. On Wikipedia, we operate under a set of rules and guidelines on how to contribute, to help make it a place where we have accurate, balanced and verifiable information.

One of our most important principles is consensus, where changes that we make to articles on Wikipedia sometimes need to be discussed and agreed to among editors, before they are made. In situations where very large changes are made to an article all at once, its not uncommon for other editors ask these changes to be discussed first, for a number of reasons.

My recommendation to you would be to hop back to the article talk page, break down the changes that you want to make to the article and your reasons for doing so, and then work with the other editors to come up with version that works. If after discussing it with the other editors, you can't come to an agreement on how to proceed, our volunteers here would be happy to help you all come to a consensus on the topic. Hope this helps! Steven Crossin 12:03, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Prince edward_island

– New discussion.

Filed by Sookie7 on 14:25, 24 June 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Prince edward island (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Sookie7 (talk · contribs)
• Simonm223 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There has been an ongoing dispute among several editors on this page as to the correct term to use in English (Persian or Farsi). According to the main Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language) and The Academy of Persian Language and Literature, "Persian" should be used in English, not Farsi.

This dispute has an affect on all pages where Persian/Farsi is used and should be resolved in General.

Editor Simonm223 has not engaged on the talk page, but has reverted my changes two times.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have referenced several reliable sources including the Wikipedia main page and The Academy of Persian Language and Literature. I have seen no engagement or acknowledgement of the sources.

How do you think we can help?

A definitive decision needs to be made regarding the proper usage. The authoratative source should be used, and not the opinion of editors.

Summary of dispute by Simonm223

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

This isn't a dispute. This user tried to edit-war in a statement that goes against the cited source because of their WP:OR, up to and including hitting the WP:3RR brightline. They were not just reverted by me but by other editors with PEI on their watchlist. This user needs to pay more attention to WP:RS and not insert their opinion over reliably sourced information. Simonm223 (talk) 14:57, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

I will not be commenting on this further here; it's a waste of my time and that of whatever mediator decides to take it on. Simonm223 (talk) 14:59, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ivanvector

Curiously I was not named as a party to this dispute, nor were Doug Weller, Meters, bonadea, nor Moxy, all of whom have tried to address Sookie7's concerns (and those of Xoltron from a month or so earlier in the same section).

As I stated on the talk page under the section where Simonm223 did respond, the source used for this statistic (the 2016 Canada Census) explicitly categorizes this metric as speakers of "Persian (Farsi)", brackets included. Neither Persian nor Farsi, but both. The Census authority, Statistics Canada, does not elaborate on their definition of "Persian (Farsi)", but that is the statistic we have. Respondents to the census were not given "Persian" and "Farsi" as separate choices, the available choice was "Persian (Farsi)", and that's the option that 175 respondents chose. We must repeat the statistic as the source presented it, without further unpublished analysis.

Sookie7 (and Xoltron before) wish to remove the word "Farsi" from the statistic because it's a native word for the Persian language and thus improper English. Their argument is irrelevant as I've explained above, but to the point anyway: Doug Weller has listed the OED definition of Farsi (demonstrating that it is in fact an accepted, proper English term, if dated), and as Meters further explained, this is a formal term used in Canadian government publications. The choice of title for our Persian language article isn't relevant here, besides the fact that the article explains in the first sentence that Persian is also known as Farsi. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:12, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Prince edward_island discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.