Talk:Theft

Psychology

Sometimes, theft is not done because of economic need, but rather, for the excitement.

Feel free to offer suggestions on how this might be reworded, but I do think this should be included in some form. Benjamin (talk) 00:47, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

If you want to prepare a section on psychology that references generally accepted theories and uses reliable source materials, you may certainly do so. But a single-sentence section that is neither consistent with generally accepted theories nor an accurate representation of the views of the single author you cite is not the place to start. The author of that book summarizes his views the following manner,

"Stealing is a confounding behavior that trips up many of us when used as a shortcut, an impulsive action, an expression of envy, or a denial of something we have lost. It may even be a sign of our trying to find something that feels lost inside ourselves, stolen away in the unconscious."

Please do not put that incorrect and inaccurate sentence back into the article. Consider developing a more complete subsection on psychology in your sandbox and discussing it before posting. Arllaw (talk) 00:58, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. It would be nice if you would WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM instead of just reverting. Benjamin (talk) 01:03, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

His words: "Most theft is not because people need it. There's a small category that's opportunistic, based on social and economic deprivation; that's actually pretty small. That they can fool people, and dupe them, and the rush. And that's also true for shoplifters." Benjamin (talk) 01:08, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Deleting the incorrect, single-sentence section was by far the most expeditious way to fix the problem. It is not reasonable to expect other editors to write and substantiate a correct section of marginal relevance to the article, merely because somebody posted a random thought into an article. Arllaw (talk) 02:14, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Anyway, how do you think it should be worded now? The mere fact that a section is incomplete isn't grounds for removal. Benjamin (talk) 02:27, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

If you want to draft a proposed section and discuss it, you may do so.

It is entirely proper to remove incorrect material from a Wikipedia article and, again, it is not the job of other editors to turn somebody's randomly placed, incorrect, sentence-long claim into a complete, factual and properly sourced subsection. Arllaw (talk) 07:49, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is supposed to be collaborative. Anyway, I suggest inserting the quote, with attribution. Benjamin (talk) 11:34, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

The great majority of theft--and nearly every other property crime--is not based on need. Property crimes are usually for the purpose of either quick material gain or enjoyment. This is one of the most thoroughly established empirical findings in criminology.

Benjamin (talk) 23:47, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

So you think you can write better than me, huh? Benjamin (talk) 00:46, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Editing here is about providing accurate, encyclopedic information that is properly supported by sources. You wanted me to fix the section such that it was suitable for Wikipedia, so there you go. Any editor may build on that foundation, consistent with the goals of this project. Arllaw (talk) 00:54, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Eh, yeah, you probably are. Thanks for collaborating. Benjamin (talk) 01:06, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Is it not true that most theft isn't due to need? Benjamin (talk) 01:14, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Do you not think that we should include the sources I mentioned at all? Benjamin (talk) 23:41, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

"Hork" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Hork. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Steel1943 (talk) 23:56, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Image choice

Snöknogunen Please take this opportunity to convince other editors that your preferred image is an improvement. If you continue to try to reinstate it, in the face of reverts by other users, your account will be blocked from editing. Please set out your arguments below. GirthSummit _(blether) 11:13, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

I have been trying to preserve the image originally uploaded by the user Arkadiynight. What I believe is that actually showing the act of theft, in this case through a progression of images, is more effective than using arguably dated illustrations that are not always clear. Furthermore, the image used at the moment is a duplicate of one found further down the page. Having the same image twice in a single article is redundant and does not improve the reader's insight into what theft really is. Snöknogunen (talk) 11:27, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Snöknogunen, thank you for engaging in discussion. I take your point that using the same picture twice in the article is redundant, and so there is a case for changing the image. However, in my view, Arkadiynight's collage is very poor in terms of image quality, and it is also distracting in that the subject is looking straight at the camera, and overall it seems to be aiming to give a comedic rather than an encyclopedic impression. I don't think that this collage would be suitable for use in any article - if you want to preserve it, you could perhaps put it on your own user page. If you want to propose an alternative image for the lead, I'd be open to suggestions. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:34, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

As seen here, I found the collage image hilarious when I saw it. I didn't even remove it. But I take Girth Summit's point about going for an encyclopedic tone. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:15, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

As a piece of comedy, it is actually quite good, I have to admit. Still, the killjoy in me feels that in article space, humour isn't really the tone we're aiming for. I'd be entirely happy for the collage to be used in user space or in an essay of some sort, but edit warring to keep it in article space isn't a good look. (I note that Snöknogunen has added it to articles in at least one other language version of Wikipedia - my focus is solely on EnWiki, but I'd urge them to consider whether it's really appropriate for any article on any Wiki). GirthSummit _(blether) 09:20, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

proposed images

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I put the candidate images into a gallery here for consideration in this discussion. If anyone has other images to suggest then please share. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:32, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Bluerasberry, Girth Summit, Snöknogunen. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with the collage image. In fact, I preemptively wrote a column on the subject in the Signpost to express my thoughts on it! (Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2021-04-25/Op-Ed) Ganesha811 (talk) 04:18, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Bluerasberry, Girth Summit, I would like to necro this discussion regarding the choice of image. In the time since we last had our discussion this article has gone through multiple different images, which in my opinion shows a general lack of direction for the article. Ideally, the main images of an article should not require any deep cultural context, while at the same time properly serving as a description for the article as a whole. I am still under the impression that Arkadiynight's collage would serve this purpose very well, as it not only is free from the constraints of cultural context, but also shows the progression of the act of theft in action, which would be invaluable for any hypothetical individual unfamiliar with the concept. I do think that the encyclopedic value of the article is suffering at the hands of a desire to appear professional, which I think is a misstep. I am open to further discussion. Snöknogunen (talk) 09:51, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the use of the word 'necro' as a verb - it sounds like it ought to mean 'kill it', but given that it was started over three years ago, and has had no comments for two years, it sounds like what you really want to do is resurrect this discussion. Anyway, I remain of the opinion that the collage image is low-quality in photographic terms and that its humorous tone would distract the reader's attention. I still don't want to be a killjoy, but I think the current image in use is better, and that the 'Fortunes of a Street Waif' image is the best I've seen; I think that using the collage would be worse than having no picture at all. If you really want to put this matter to bed, then you could collate a gallery of all the images that have been used in this article in the last few years, and initiate an RfC (see the intructions at WP:RfC) on the matter, to establish a formal consensus on the image to be used. Girth Summit _(blether) 11:04, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

"Necro" is often used in forums as a shorthand for thread necromancy, which may be revealing of which generation I belong to. Anyhow, thank you for replying with the suggestion of initiating an RfC. It is probably the best option going forward to engage in consensuscraft. I will be working on it. Snöknogunen (talk) 12:23, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Theft vs Stealing

I think it's important to state that theft is slightly different from stealing. Below is the definition of stealing:

Stealing is the act of wrongfully and unlawfully taking possession of another entity's physical and/or intellectual property.

While the above definition does not need to be included in the article, I think that it should at least mention the difference between the two terms. Feel free to reply if you have something else to add. Black Stallions (talk) 00:05, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Some countries' criminal codes also define theft in essentially this way (i.e. my home country's Denmark's criminal code) with no mentioning of intent. The idea that there needs to be "intent" for something to be theft seems common law based and perhaps that needs to be mentioned (a dictionary definition in English will of course reflect the common law tradition).--Batmacumba (talk) 17:00, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

And extending "stealing" to cover intprop is basically accepting propaganda from intprop industries that misuses the word that way; as used by people in everyday English, "stealing" has not actually expanded its definition in that way.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:01, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Request for comment on image choice

The following images have been used as the main image of the article over the last couple of years. Which would best be suited to be used for the article?

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Snöknogunen (talk) 15:00, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

As has been outlined in a prior talk section I favor the use of the four image collage by Arkadiynight. As it both clearly shows the process and act of theft without any depper cultural context necessary. In other words, I believe it exemplifies what a main image should be like. Snöknogunen (talk) 15:05, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

It's a good idea to show the "the process and act of theft without any deeper cultural context" however I'm not sure the collage (option 2) is suitable. The coat of arms of Russia is very prominent visually on the photos, so when I looked at the collage I spent several seconds trying to understand what is going on there. Stealing posters doesn't happen a lot, so at first I thought the guy is making some kind of political statement.

I think we should make an effort not to perpetuate the stereotypes about how thieves look like. Not all thieves are low-class pickpockets.

While I'm not a big fan of the current image (Option 3) because it's not clear what is shown unless the reader reads the caption, probably it's the least bad option. Alaexis_¿question? 13:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• I like the fourth image best, followed by the fist. The second one I barely understand and as for the third one I doubt that "something is missing" is identical to "something was stolen". But the forth image is both aesthetically pleasing and clear Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
• As I've said about, I think the four-image collage is inappropriate - it's a set of poor-quality images, and looks like a work of comedy in my view. I don't feel strongly about which of the others is better. Girth Summit _(blether) 14:08, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
• The 4th image captures the act and the typical essense of theft. I'd say it's the most appropriate. Listen1st (talk) 19:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
• 4th image. I don't think the second should even be considered, for reasons already stated. Of these four options, the fourth feels the least problematic and the most understandable. It demonstrates the act of thieving (what the collage is intending to do) within just one simple image. The first image would be my next choice, but it's more difficult to see what is going on in the image, as compared to the fourth. pillowcrow 20:48, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support the first image as fairly clear, the fourth is my second favourite. The third is vague and the second looks like some kind of surrealist performance art. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 18:36, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
• I prefer the fourth image. I find the first and third images not very clear while the second image seems more representative of political protest. The fourth image is slightly funny in a makes you smile kind of way without being distractingly so. I also think its the clearest and simplest.--Llewee (talk) 23:39, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• I prefer the first image and then second choice is the fourth image. Look at those poor street waifs, they need a new pair of boots. Tramping around the city is hard on boots. And I'm sure they will take no more than the two pairs they need. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:36, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

• First image as the focus is clearly on the boys and the boots they are stealing. Second choice of fourth image as it too focuses on the act of theft, but since the baker in white catches the eye first it's my second choice. ~ Argenti Aertheri^(Chat?) 19:04, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• Fourth or First - either would work great. The third takes far to long to process (the empty frame could easily be modern art), and the second is just bad. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 14:32, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
• First, or, as as second place fourth. These are clear-cut attempts by an artist to capture the idea of theft, which any viewer can reasonably understand. Oppose the second option; it is low quality, hard to parse at most resolutions, too goofy, and not clear enough. Strenuously oppose the third because it is even less clear to the point of being totally obtuse. --Aquillion (talk) 23:53, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
• Fourth, as it's the easiest to understand at a glance and in a low resolution. The first image would be my second choice, but it's hard to parse as a thumbnail. The second image feels too goofy for an encyclopedia page on a serious topic, and as mentioned above, it's too easy to misinterpret as a political statement. The third image is interesting and might have a place in the article, but it needs too much explanation to make sense as the primary image. Ghosts of Europa (talk) 19:18, 2 September 2023 (UTC)