Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)

Previous discussions are available at:

• Archive 1
• Archive 2
• Archive 3
• Archive 4
• Archive 5
• Archive 6
• Archive 7
• Archive 8
• Archive 9

The renaming poll of June 2005 (now closed) is archived at Talk:Macedonian Slavs/Poll. (See also Archive 2 for many comments arising from this poll.)

Kanchov & Weigand

Македонците са чисти българи,а не тяхна подгрупа каквато са посочени в статията. Can we get a look at the actual quotes, because if this is going to be based on hearsay as it currently is, I'm going to remove that statement completely and replace with entirely with Britannica's (which mentions only two ethnic groups: Greeks and Slavs).--Domitius 19:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The picture yet again

Also please consider a replacement for Vojdan Chernodrinski.   /FunkyFly.talk_  18:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Enough with this bullshit of yours Fly. Chernodrinski is Macedonian, just as Misirkov. Bomac 21:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

But if he declared as Bulgarian, you can hardly undubiously claim him as "Macedonian".--Domitius 21:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

They've also declared as Macedonians. Bomac 21:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Can't you find someone who declared only as "Macedonian", someone like Metodija Andonov Cento perhaps? Apparently he's significant enough to be featured amongst other "Macedonians" (despite the fact that one declared as Greek and one as Bulgarian) on the cover of Alexander Donski's Etnogenetskite razliki pomeđu makedoncite i bugarite. You've already honored the first two here (and given us all a good laugh in the process). The third great "Macedonian" could be featured here.--Domitius 21:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Enough with monopolisation of the pics of Macedonians. Will it be this or that, these people are Macedonians, born in Macedonia, declared as Macedonians. Bomac 21:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Spoken like a true macedonist! Congratulations!   /FunkyFly.talk_  21:28, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

@Bomac: Ethnic or regional? NikoSilver 21:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

@Niko: Can't you read man? It's ethnic Macedonians, and please stop being silly. Bomac 21:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

@Bomac: Read who, where? NikoSilly is offended 21:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Bomac, this picture is supposed exemplify ethnic Macedonians. Misirkov is hardly the case, and neither is Chernodrinski, who sought refuge in Bulgaria, and wrote most of his works in Bulgarian.   /FunkyFly.talk_  21:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope, you are wrong. Bomac 21:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

No sources.   /FunkyFly.talk_  21:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Why dont you put Zhivko Chingo? He was featured at mk.wikipedia at some point. Or is he too recent for your claims of cultural continuity stretching back several millenia?   /FunkyFly.talk_  21:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Not Slavs

I am Macedonian and not a Slav. Your poll is oppressing. I want this case reopened. --Bonina 22:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

According to my copy of The Concise Oxford English Dictionary, Slavs are the peoples of central and eastern Europe who speak Slavic languages.--Domitius 22:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Here, check it out [1] --Bonina 23:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

This publication is widely, and for a good reason, regarded as pseudoscience in the community.   /FunkyFly.talk_  23:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Another one then [2]. This one comes from a historian, not a linguist. --Bonina 23:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Alexander Donski does not have a degree in history, and has quite a daunting list of pseudoscientific ideas.   /FunkyFly.talk_  23:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Bonino, please stop, you're only digging yourself deeper. Many of Alexander Donski's theories are fringe views - to get the mainstream facts, go here.--Domitius 23:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Another one [3] And, I am sorry but I will not accept a Greek and a Bulgarian to tell me what I am --Bonina 00:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

You can declare whatever you want, but to write about ethnic Macedonians as people, you need more backing than some irredentist propagandist site.   /FunkyFly.talk_  00:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

How about the Encyclopaedia Britannica [4]. According to them: [the] largest group, calling themselves Macedonians (about two-thirds of the population), are descendants of Slavic tribes that moved into the region between the 6th and 8th centuries AD.--Domitius 00:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the language is mainly Slavic (but very very influenced by other non Slavic languages too), and it's very very difficult to classify a nation. Especially not by its language. Example: Are the Senegalese French? Id go with the imagined communities.--Bonina 00:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Non-Slavic languages, like Ancient Macedonian? Completely fringe theory, see also Rosetta Stone article for some "professors" claiming Ancient Macedonian was actually present day Slavic language. As a matter of fact, there is significant position that views the Macedonian language as a dialect with Bulgarian, albeit with Serbian influence.   /FunkyFly.talk_  00:19, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Non-Slavic languages, like Turkish mainly. Latin also. Hebrew letters in our alphabet? What does the Rosetta stone have anything to do with this? its written in Greek, Egyptian, and some weird form of Arabic. --Bonina 00:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad we agree on something. However, Britannica is pretty explicit, the population is Slavic, no traces of Ancient Macedonians.   /FunkyFly.talk_  00:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, Britannica has based these claims on the language. Have they any other sources? And, while I am NOT saying that we are Ancient Macedonians, I am saying that its crazy to say that we are Slavs. We are mixed with Slavs, just as much as we are mixed with many others. --Bonina 00:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Also see Macedonism   /FunkyFly.talk_  23:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you two are, at least in part, arguing over mere definitions. Saying Macedonians are a "Slavic ethnic group" does not mean that all of their ancestors thousands of years ago were Slavs. No statement of that type would be true for any ethnic group. Nevertheless, it is a reasonable thing to say that Macedonians are a "Slavic ethnic group" in the cultural sense.--Pharos 01:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Other than a mainly Slavic language, our culture is outright Southern. The same culture as at least 20 other countries. And the only binding thing is the Macedonian. Albeit, Republic of Macedonia Macedonian.--Bonina 01:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I wonder what neanderthal had the grand idea to vandalise this article with the "Macedonian Bulgars" stuff, wrote it in Bulgarian too! --Emeraldher 23:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

You unhistorical fools! All people living in North Greece are Macedonians-all of them! because the ancient Macedonian nation was created there. Shame on you to accept a slavian nation as greek-macedonian.I really doubt for the constancy of your contents on wikipedia. They ought to be refered as SLAVOMACEDONIANS (if not simply as history-counterfeiters nation)

Nicolaos Vasaras from Thessaloniki city-(real) Macedonia,Greece

History section

A red user has been copying information from history of the Republic of Macedonia to this article. This is not an article about a region, it is an article about a people. There's no point to flood the article with irrelevant historical information, let alone copy-pasted from other articles. Historical information on Macedonia exists in dozens of articles, including Demographic history of Macedonia, Macedonia (region), Macedonia (terminology) and more more more. I'll keep reverting such edits, there's been a consensus about this a long time ago. Also the genetics information provided... what can i say, personally I think such entries are bad for wikipedia's reputation. If other people think they're normal then go ahead and restore them. Miskin 08:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Genetics info is bad for wikipedia's reputation? Very interesting suggestion!Jingiby Historical information on Macedonia exists here too, but not entirely without Ancient times! Jingby 10:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Repeating information is generally disapproved in wikipedia, let alone when it comes to such a controversial and over-repeated topic. Your perception of "Macedonia" and "Macedonians" is not shared with mainstream scholarship, your edits are unsourced and abide by a certain nation's minority view. Such aspects of this article have been discussed dozens of times in the past, sourced and counter-sourced, and the article's currect state was the result of a painful editor consensus (you can go through the archives if you want). You can't just barge in and change it, especially with such poor argumentation and sourcing. Last but not least this is an article about a modern Slavic nation, and the history of the Slavic-speaking peoples of what is now called Republic of Macedonia (for it had different names in the past - see Macedonia (terminology). See also WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:ATT and WP:3RR. Miskin 13:05, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

As for the genetics stuff, personally I think it's unencycopaedic, if for no good reason because it aims to provide proof a partisan POV, supported by stuff that the majority of readers cannot understand nor verify. I think it gives a bad imagine to wikipedia. This is of course something arguable. Miskin 13:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The same!Jingby 13:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)I do not resist any partizan or FYROM position, but thise facts are objective and makes the problem more clear!Jingby

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 16:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

This Article

This article is such a mess!!!! It should be deleted. It is written according to the point of view of Greeks and Bulgarians. While I respect your views, Wikipedia is something that has all point of views, and therefore the Macedonian point of view should be acknowledged especially in an article about them. 900 Macedonians in Greece? Come on! Neutral estimates from non Macedonian groups (Ethnologue, Joshua Project, Human Rights Watch) all estimate around 200,000.

Uuttyyrreess 01:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

It depend on what you mean when you say Macedonian. --Laveol 10:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:OR would suggest 10,000 to 20,000 maximum ethnic Macedonians/Slavomacedonians exist in Greece. Read the very well sourced articles Minorities in Greece#Christian Orthodox Slavophones and Slavic language (Greece), as well as the estimates by the [Greek-POV-criticizing] Greek Helsinki Monitor which are based on the 2,900 votes for the Rainbow (political party). NikoSilver 10:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the link (Greek Helsinki Monitor) by Niko Silver. This is what I found on page 20:

As official census data do not exist, and if they did they would not be reliable, we will mention here the most frequent estimate of some 200,000 Macedonian speakers in Greece (IHF, 1993:45; & Rizopoulos, 1993); the 1987 Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year 1987 gives an estimate of 180,000 (Banfi, 1994:5). Also, an anonymous Greek ethnologist gave an estimate of 200,000 for the community, among whom some 100,000 understand the language and a few thousands have a Macedonian conscience (Chiclet, 1994:8). Another scholar, based of a detailed estimate of 30,000 speakers in the Florina and Aridea area makes a global estimate of 100,000-150,000 Macedonian speakers throughout Greek Macedonia (Van Boeschoten, 1994). Thus, the 200,000 estimate for the Macedonian community seems reasonable, also in view of the fact that the -naturally conservative- prefects of Greek Macedonia estimate the ‘idiom’ speakers at some 100,000 (Financial Times, 4/11/1992), also the estimate of the Jyllands Posten correspondent (17/7/1993).

So like I said neutral estimates are around 200,000 for the (Slavic) Macedonian community in Greece, and therefore stating that there are only 1000 is just unacceptable.

Uuttyyrreess 02:35, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Uuttyyrreess, your sources speak of the number of speakers of the language, not the size of the alleged ethnic minority. If you read that same report, it also tells us that the overwhelming majority self-identify as Greeks (Grkomani). Officially there is no such minority and in the infobox we stick with what's official. Don't feel sad, Greeks have to do the same thing - that's why at the Greeks article we say that there are 58,785 Greeks in Albania whereas there are sources claiming there are as many as 400,000 Greeks there.--Ploutarchos 13:39, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, the Greek community is under estimated in Albania just like the Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria. However, there is no reason why there can't be a paragraph in the article that explains the current situation, after all the more information, the better the article. Uuttyyrreess 02:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Not Slav ??

I was reading the article Not Slavs, 2 guys arguing about whether Macedonians are slavs

Macedonians ARE slavs. Yes, they have other influences too, but are predominantly Slavic. Macedonians (ie real macedonians, ecxluding Albanians and other minorities) would all say that they are Slavs. They have Slavic culture, slavic way of life, slavic religion, and identify with other slavic peoples

Your suggestion to the contrary is wrong. Full stop

Slavic culture, and above all, Slavic way of life? What the heck is a Slavic way of life. Take a look at other Slavs like the Russians, have you any idea how different our mentalities are? Slavic religion? So then the deduction is that Greeks are Slavs too? The only Slavic people we identify with are possibly the Serbs. Our culture, mentality and heritage are too mixed and complex to be simply called Slavic. --Emeraldher 23:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

By Slavic religion the above user meant Slavic Mythology from which we gained the name of the city Veles, among other things. There still are traces of Slavic rituals in Macedonian folk tradition. Zaebangad 03:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Only 962 Macedonians living in Greece?

Are you fucken joking me? Go to northern 'Greece' aka Aegean Macedonia and see just how many of them are Greek, and how many of them are Macedonian