Talk:Akatsuki (Naruto)

Itachi

Does anyone notice in this section involving Itachi Uchiha that it says Main article: Itachi Uchiha but the the links just directs us to Itachi's Akatsuki page and not his main page with the plot overviw and stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.121.42.181 (talk) 00:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The page was merged due to not satisfying WP:FICT. The link to that page has been removed from this article. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 00:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

merged my ass, you just deleted the page--Mhart54com 01:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

All the relevant information is already there. Anything else is extraneous plot or in-universe details that don't need to be included. In any case, read WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL before you decide to write a comment like that. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 01:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

why do you think your above me?--Mhart54com 01:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Why are you trying to deflect the issue to a matter of personal opinion? Address the problem or don't bother replying. It helps no one when you throw unfounded accusations. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

If it makes you feel any better, Mhart, I think I'm above you. It has something to do with you thinking that Madara cannot possibly be Tobi and that "you're right and we're all wrong". Speak Qwerty 07:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm so glad you can assume good faith with other editors. In any case, until someone satisfies WP:FICT, the article is not going to be restored. There's really no way around it; ergo, spend less time arguing here and more time searching for relevant information. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 07:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

That was a joke, didnt you see the giant star i gave TheUltimate3. I did it too see if admins could revert more then 3 times. since no dam admins would tell me. you sound tough for someone who has only been here for 2 days. dont start with me!--Mhart54com 10:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Get over yourself, Mhart. I've been here for longer than two days, I just haven't made an account until recently. Besides, as evident with you, time is clearly not an indicator of maturity. Speak Qwerty 16:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Calm down before you say something you shouldn't. The two of you are both Wikipedians, correct? If so then you should show each other some respect.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 20:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

You didn't merge it, you deleted it and kept little info. And no one, except the admins, is above anyone else. Jazz Band Member 21:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Sephiroth can't delete things, so the article's history and talk page still exist. That qualifies as a merge. ~SnapperTo 22:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

And not even admins are above anyone please read the page on adimins and read what Jimbo has to say about them.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 22:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest something be put in about how it almost seems that Itachi still likes his brother as seen in chapter 146 and after Kisame thinks Sasuke is dead he describes Itachi as looking like hes crying about it in issue 364. —Preceding unsigned comment added by OOMYK007 (talk • contribs) 04:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok first of all, will everybody stop the personal attacks, I dont think we should add the thing about Itachi crying and we don't know is he was--Blue-Eyes Gold Dragon 07:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

How about adding to his article about how pretty much everything Itachi has done has been the driving force behind almost all of Sauske's actions in the show. Or his encounter with Orochimaru which caused Orochimaru's defection and in turn desire for Sauske's sharingan? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.139.205 (talk) 16:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Orochimaru left Akatsuki before the events of naruto, and I think the itachi thing is on the sasuke's page —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blue eyes gold dragon (talk • contribs) 16:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Nah Orochimaru left Akatsuki because he tried to take over Itachi's body while they were both in Akatsuki and Itachi took his hand for it it's been explained in the manga and even the show. I also don't think someone should have to by happenstance be forced to read about something intimate between 2 separate characters via 1 characters info/page/view —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.139.205 (talk) 17:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Also the relationship between Sauske and Itachi is highly relevant to the manga/show their characters and the characters around sauske in particular. Itachi is a very important character with plenty of information regarding him and his actions thus far to downplay his importance in a manner to insinuate that he doesn't need and is undeserving of his own page is sad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.139.205 (talk) 17:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

He failed to meet WP:FICT and all that info was out of universe and therefore he could not have his own article. the disscussion is closed and a concensus was reached so until kishimoto releases some charachter creation info or he does soemthing like die.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 20:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

If Itachi's personal article still exists in its "History" form, then may I please view it? Kageryushin 19:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[1] ~SnapperTo 21:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I think I might have found something. What's this about a weasel being a harbinger associated with bad fortune and Itachi meaning weasel?? Oh, i think it's a third-party source. Now correct me if I am wrong here, but I think I stumbled on this third-party source that tells why Kishimoto chose the mane Itachi for this particular character. Oh man. How could we have overlooked this?? A non-WP:ILIKEIT reason for keeping the article was staring us right in the face. But of course, I have been wrong before. ItachiUchihaArticleForTheWin 06:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

New Akatsuki members?

In ch. 369, it shows Pein going to sleep, opening six giant canisters, and waking up again. After that, you see six people emerge from the canisters, but you can't see their faces. The pictures were a little blurry, but I think those six people were wearing Akatsuki cloaks! It was a cloak that looked exactly like Akatsuki cloaks (yes, they were black). I'm not positive if it had red clouds on it or not, but it looked like it. Anyway, it's got something covering those cloaks. Even though I couldn't see the faces, I think one of them was Kakuzu. Who knows? Therefore, Pein is either recruiting new Akatsuki members, resurrecting deceased Akatsuki members (Deidara, Sasori, Hidan, Kakuzu, Orochimaru, and an unknown), or he could just be using completely new ninja to do his bidding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.50.107 (talk) 22:48, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

From what i have seen recently about pein calling jairiya sensei, does anybody think he and Konan might be his other two genin he taught with the fourth. because the other two genin partners are not mentioned and they could have moved to another village. Pein could have went from konoha and started a civil war in the land rain to get control of a village. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.163.157 (talk) 23:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes. A lot of people think that, if you've read this discussion page or viewed the page's history at all. It doesn't matter, though. It's not proven and thus belongs on a forum, not Wikipedia. You Can't See Me! 23:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Wait until tommorrow and we'll go from there although i doubt we will have any info to go on.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 23:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I was told by a reliable source that those six guys where more Peins. Who knows.--TheUltimate3 23:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

He could also be using a cloning jutsu similar to the one he used on Itachi and Kiname(sp).74.74.83.251 00:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I saw that too. To me it appeared to be new members in Akatsuki cloaks. Tho one DID resemble Kakuzu...and was it just me or did that pic have Pein open his eyes and them appear to be like Shukakus (Spl?)? Chipmonk328 7 September 2007

His eyes were normal. I noticed the one parallel to Pein was rather large and I remember there being an unnamed, large Akatsuki during the first meeting in Part I. So, I would bet he's doing something with their deceased bodies, some Shang Tsung theatrics perhaps. Regardless, that's all speculation so there isn't much that can be put in an article for now. Intellect Ninja 00:50, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

On Pein's section, it says that Pein is switching into six different bodies. Is this true? no right now alll we know is that akatsuki is doing sumtin with bodies one looked odly like kakuzu and the other big one cold be deidara since he did explode he might be just deflating or sumtin but we have to wait till next week to find out —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.197.82 (talk) 03:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone tell the meaning of the words in front of the bodies? Enoch08 05:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Well they aren't the sysmbols on their rings, but I think those are the 6 remaining Akatsuki members. ChristianC September 8 2007

I apologise for that. Now I see it is just normal eyes. It was cuz it was the leaked version and hadn't been cleaned up yet. Now that I have the cleaned up version, I have this to say. No, one did not resemble Deidara. I thot one looked like Kakuzu, but thats Pain. SO, I belive it to be as follows. Pain, Sasori (note the big body), Zetsu (he IS still alive after all..), Konan, Kisame (note that hes not with Itachi, who is going to fight sasuke and said to come alone.), and I'm not sure of the last one. It couldn't be Tobi, IMO becuase, if the theory is correct, He'll be going to the shrine as well to meet Sasuke and Itachi to ressurect Tengu. But then, would they also need Kakashi due to his Mangekyo sharingan? (Note that Sasuke got his in the valley of the end battle http://saiyanisland.com/naruto/?naruto=info/Sharinganin ) and what of Naruto? He has a key part of unlocking Tengu, the nine tailed fox. (Sorry for going off topic, but its an intersting thought to think about.)---Chipmonk328 9 September 2007

There is still no information about the bodies. You're going to have to wait another week. I think it's worthy to mention though, that the eyes were NOT normal. Pein went to sleep, and presumably woke up in another body, but he still had the spiral eyes. There is nobody left in Akatsuki that matches those bodies, either. Zetsu's body only gets bigger around the neck, not the gut, and Sasori doesn't even look human in puppet form. It's just a collection of bodies (probably of legendary ninja, but maybe not). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.152.121.199 (talk) 04:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

No Sasuke DOES NOT have mangekyou sharingan, go read the manga or watch the anime again. I made a post about this on a forum, and after extensive answers, it's been confirmed that he DOES NOT possess it. Period. Note that the section on his three-bladed sharingan has been removed from your linked website; check it out. It was probably a blurred picture or a deluded anime watcher, but it probably stayed on the website because no one monitored that page. Anyway, the bodies seem to just be multiple bodies for Pein to use himself, meaning that they are NOT akatsuki members (until pein enters them i guess. Just because they were wearing the cloaks doesn't mean they were any of the members we knew. Its just so he has his normal clothes on for everyday purposes. We should just give them a mention and wait for further information as to what they really are.60.52.125.108 07:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Are you certain of this? Because this wasn't the only site where I have seen this image. I'm admittedly bothered by this, but I got to wonder about it. --Chipmonk32817 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 05:08, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Quite sure. Unless someone can find a non-altered, canonical and non-fan-made picture somewhere to prove this (or find an anime screenshot), then it stands that sasuke DOES NOT have MS. Also, he did mention how he was going to "attain power his own way" and not by following itachi's will( that is, to kill his best friend to get MS). So unless further proof turns up, or future chapters verify this, I say it's not possible. Thousands of manga readers and anime watchers do not remember seeing this. Like i said, its probably a hoax or something.N Dot W 02:47, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

the mangekyou sharingan doesnt matter to me but just because thats what you think those bodies were doesnt mean thats what they are, after all, everyone thought we'd know who the al was...turns out it was some random guy living in the rain village. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Threatening force (talk • contribs) 02:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

If those bodies belonged to the remaining members (which makes sense seeing as there are six of them, and Tobi was there for a moment at least it looked like his mask and he made mention of finding the intruder) then the bigt guy was likely Zetsu (not the dead Sasori or whoever the hell else you may think it was) to account for his bulky fly-trap things. Or if I could find the image then I could look at the Kanji on his cylinder and tell you who's ring he is.

Most of you remember that Pein has used the ability to use the bodies of subordinates in order to create "clones" of akatsuki members. Now, it could be fallen akatsuki members that Pein has in those chambers, but I believe that he has used a jutsu on other subordinates to provide himself with vessels. Think about it. Some members of akatsuki appear to have found different ways of extending their lives. Orochimaru, Sasori, Kakazu, Hidan, and Tobi, have all shown that they have indeed lived longer than usual. This could be Pein's method of longer life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RogueFox (talk • contribs) 16:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... About the MS. While I know Sasuke doesn't have it yet, I would like to point out that it's quite impossible for Itachi's specific method to gain the Mangekyo to be the true method. As mentioned elsewhere, Kakashi's Mangekyo was formed some time after everyone he could have called "best friend" had died. 82.34.123.164 07:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Someone ought to change the part on Pein's article that we have never seen him in combat. As of 373 we have.

Standing in place isn't combat, it's conversation. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Pein

Can someone add that Pein shares a remarkable resemblence to Naruto?

Maybe he's a ressurected Nawaki or Naruto's long lost brother of some sort. just some suggestions

Original research. They don't even look remotely alike in any case. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 00:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't play ignorant. They definitely have a similar design. Nevertheless, Wikipedia is not for speculations and opinions. Intellect Ninja 02:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Intellect Ninja, they DO have a resemblance, but that information isnt up to Wikipedia Standards.-- Chipmonk328 7 September 2007

i have to admit they do have a similar body structure similar build hair style but many people do have naruto's hairstyle an remember in the latest chapter he's belived to be a fuuma or something so he cant be nawaki or related to nauto --209.159.197.82 03:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

This is Shonen Manga. There's no such thing as "can't". If Kishimoto wants them to be related, they will be related. Like I said before though, Wikipedia is not for speculation and opinions. Intellect Ninja 16:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Even so, in the manga that just came out, they said that kyuubi charkra was divided into halves of good and evil. maybe good is in Naruto and evil is in pein. I know wikipedia isn't for speculation but it is just something to think about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.83.88.199 (talk) 02:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow. I agree with Sephiroth... I cant say anything about the likeness, but until it comes out in NMR, we shouldnt change anything. withiout proof, wikipedia will just end up like those forums where any info is considered true. The best thing is not to argue... *cough Chipmonk and the guy above me cough*, but to wait for updates... jasonlee1037 17:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Me too I think they were the other two genin with the fourth and they left. Pein left to maybe start the civil war and to fight one of the stongest ninja. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.163.157 (talk) 23:34, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The "evil" chakra is in the frog. In any case, I have to agree with Sephiroth and Jason; apart from their silhouettes, Pein and Naruto look nothing alike. Regardless, this is getting a bit forumish (I just had to get the last word in ^_^) You Can't Review Me!!! 02:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Apparently, Pein is the other student of Jiraiya along with Konan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.236.250.188 (talk) 00:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Pein, along with Konan, are revealed to have been orphans from Rain taken in by Jiraiya. His name is Nagato.obf213

At this point, we don't know exactly if Pein was Nagato or Yahiko. He bears resemblance to Yahiko, but has the eyes of Nagato. Perhaps his original body is that of Nagato, and that one of his six is Yahiko. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.99.15 (talk) 21:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

are we sure that pein is the leader of akatsuki???

Yes, Pein is the Akatsuki "leader," but he takes orders from Tobi/Madara for some reason. In chapter 373, we find out that Pein's eye technique is called Rinnegan, which is supposed to be the most powerful of all three eye jutsu. Someone might wanna add that.

Not Rin'negan, just Rinnegan. They are not the "cause" of an eye technique, they are an eye technique, a Kekkei Genkai, similar to Sharingan and Byakugan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muramasa itachi (talk • contribs) 03:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Tobi's Identity

The Akatsuki page states that Tobi is Madara Uchiha, while Tobi simply states in Chapter 364, page 18 that his power and Madara's are one and the same, i.e. "My power, Madara's power". It is a strong possibility that Tobi may simply be working for Madara or acting as a conduit for him, but regardless there is no conclusive evidence that the two characters are one and the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alwayssummerdays (talk • contribs) 19:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC) Traditional Japanese speach commonly speaks in the third person in which case, Tobi was referring to himself and Uchiha Madara. that and kishimoto wanted to reveal his identity with crazy climax and that was how he chose to do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.111.232.107 (talk) 20:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC) --Blue-EyesGold Dragon 03:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't get it. If japanese supervillains say kono for I, it would mean: I, Uchiha Madara's power. Isn't he saying that he HAS Madara's power instead he IS Madara? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.19.19 (talk) 22:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, im going to add aswell. according to the most recent chapter at this present time in which this message was posted, Uchiha Madara was just shown in a picture as an older looking Sasuke (like in his 20's) It was also said that he was the founder of the Uchiha Clan, and was defeated by the fourth due to a discrepency. Tobi is then seen standing on a statue of Madara laughing.

Where to begin. First of all, he looks nothing like an older-looking Sasuke to me. He looks, if anything, somewhat-similar to Curse-Seal Stage 2 Sasuke. It never said he was defeated by the fourth. It said he was defeated by the FIRST. There was no mention of any discrepancy, and there was no laughing when he was standing on the statue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.127.210 (talk) 23:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

the manga states that madara uchiha was DEFEATED not killed by the first hokage. Also if people dont believe that tobi is madara, 1. itachi wiped out all known uchiha members, 2. kakuzu was able to fight the 1st hokage and lived so why cant someone else. My friend says that it could possibly be obito uchiha, because: 1. obito gave kakashi his left eye, while tobi's mask only reveals his right eye. 2.the pins in tobi's arms could be medical pins to heal his crushed arms. 3. obito and tobi (the names) look similar. 4. obito was like naruto as a kid and still retains his goofiness. -tavaresiroc

Not the Tobi is Obito theory again. Why can't you theory-makers just shut up and wait and see what Kishimoto reveals? Anyway, back to the main issue. Tobi never does say he is Madara. He simply states that he has the power of Uchiha Madara, and then they do a close up on his Sharingan. This leads us to believe the Sharingan in the power of Madara, which makes sense, considering Madara was supposed to have founded the Uchiha Clan. On top of that, Madara would be somewhere between 92-112 in the current arc, and not even Sandaime could move in the ways Tobi does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.116.185.196 (talk) 01:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

You know, intellect ninja had a good point. this is not a forum, and should not be treated as such. i will also make sure i keep this in mind for the future. we should not discuss such issues as "theory" on this page. the main topics that should be discussed are discrepency in "FACTS", and not matters of opinion. the only facts we have are that tobi said, " my power, uchiha madara's power" which means tobi is madara. also, it is quite possible for madara to be alive still due to the fact that there are several members of akatsuki that have found ways to extend there lives. this has not been shown to be the case with tobi, so, the only thing we can do is wait and see what actually happens, rather than speculate and make theories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RogueFox (talk • contribs) 18:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Wikipedia should say anothing abvout him being anybody buit Tobiu until he removes his mask and says precisely who he is with no ambiguity in his word choice or context, or hwatever. Kishimoto reffered to him as 'he' at the and of chapter 370 implying that he has not yet revealed his true identity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 17:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree, anything else besides concrete evidence would probably fall under the category of Original Research, especially if it is just non-Japanese language majors dissecting the language. Until we can get someone with a doctorate in English AND Japanese to dissect the actual phrase, its wholly original research by a non-expert. Arukan Harless 18:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Although this falls under the lines of theory too he might have been talking about Uchiha Madara's power over the nine tails as seen with sasuke in naruto's mind and to which jiraiya adds his own theory in the recents chapter. Anyway the point is it is also a theory that he is uchiha madara since although kazuku survived is encounter with the First he has had quite a longer lifespan than we've heard from any ohter character and I could state another dozen of reason why it is unlikely however since it is a theory it should be stated as such just like it was when people put up the theory that he was obito(which is far more likely than madara but thats my opinion) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.97.16 (talk) 23:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Definitely one of the wierder plot twists here. Tobi's personality completely changes as Madara, but as of now all we know is that he is at the very least a reincarnation(?) of Madara. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muramasa itachi (talk • contribs) 23:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Pein is from the Fuuma clan

it was said that in chapter 369 page 7 that Pein's blood was from the Fuuma clan. I just wanted to let you know that and that Remnants of the former Amegakure were searching for Pein and trying to kill him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Temari y (talk • contribs) 22:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Can we say his name is then Pein Fuma, isn't it his clans name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.202.247 (talk) 13:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The guy only said it was rumored... he never said it was a fact. Jazz Band Member 20:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

So, fillers DO count... interesting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.19.19 (talk) 22:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

.....um...I wouldn't call that a filler--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 23:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The "rumor" that Pein is from the Fuma clan is canon. If it is said in the manga, then that is what should be considered canon. And no, fillers do not count, and should not count. Also, since it is "rumored" and has not been proven yet, I don't feel it should be included in Pein's description. But now we know pein isn't his original name in chapter 372 but a name he took after he spent time with jiraiya since even he didn't know who he was and ask konan"So which of the two is Pein?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.97.16 (talk) 23:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The Fuma clan appeared in the first filler arc as a clan Orochimaru supposedly wiped out. They seemed to be described in the same manner as Pein, so I'm glad that arc is being taken as canon. Again, the Fuma bloodline limit (Kekkei Genkai) appears to be Rinnegan; check above for that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muramasa itachi (talk • contribs) 23:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Tobi's Mangekyou

At the end of Chapter 370, if you look at Tobi's Sharingan it appears to be the same type of Mangekyou Sharingan as Itachi's. I happened to be reading a smaller edition of the chapter but after close inspection it's unmistakable. Of course, it (could) just be Kishimoto drawing small due of a lack of space, but atm it is safe to assume that Tobi has access to the Mangekyou. AnimeNikkaJamal 18:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

No, that's just regular Sharingan. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 19:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

(Link: http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/chapter370discussion.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=44880 ) That appears to be a Mangekyou similar to Itachi's. If you disagree or think this picture is false, show me to another picture (of the same page in the chapter). AnimeNikkaJamal 23:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

No, that's just regular Sharingan. Mangekyo fills the pupil completely. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

OMG He's right! I cant belive I didnt notice sooner! Look, Kakashi's looked different to Itachi's first off. Plus, the one we saw breifly in the VOTE battle (Sasuke's M. Sharingan perhaps?) also appeared different. So thats at least 3 different Mangekyo Sharingan. Whats not to say their is another? Granted, at this point it can be considered Speculation, but it also cannot be ruled out.--Chipmonk328 17 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 05:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

And WHERE and WHEN exactly did we see sasuke's MS? I believe i posted about this in one of the earlier discussions, so go look it up. Has anyone here personally SEEN an original image of sasuke supposed "brief" MS? Does it appear at the END of the battle or the middle or what? there isn't any proof. I even went through the episodes (briefly) and even watched the climax nearly frame by frame (if anyone could catch the MS by watching the show at normal speed, they would most likely have sharingan themselves). So don't quote things you read on any old website, only verifiable sources. And no Tobi does not have MS, take a closer look at a scanlated version of CH370.N Dot W 03:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

By "VOTE battle", I'm assuming you mean the Top 5 Battles special near the end of the fillers. There was no MS displayed; that was simply Sasuke's two-tomoe Sharingan developing into a three-tomoe Sharingan. You Can't Review Me!!! 03:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Valley of the end battle? lol. Near the end. I could be wrong. But thats what has been stated.--Chipmonk328

i cant remember where i saw, but i remember like a swirly vortex "thing" coming from what appeared to be tobi's mask. Does anyone know what im talking about, does anyone know what that wasThreatening force 03:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The mask is a swirly vortex thing. It's a very clever use of a mask i must say. The spiral draws your eyes to the center which is coincidentally Tobi's Sharingan eye, so by looking at his face you automatically look at his eye and then it's Genjutsu time. It's a optical trick and Tobi is just briliant. I thought his mask was stupid at first but it's just the opposite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 17:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Quote: No, that's just regular Sharingan. Mangekyo fills the pupil completely. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

That's what you've seen so far. The previous Mangekyou have filled pupils but who's to say Tobi's doesn't? Remember, the Mangekyou design was dynamic between Kakashi and Itachi, so it's perfectably plusible that Tobi has a Sharingan different than the standard. AnimeNikkaJamal 23:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Please stop saying that Tobi is Madara uchiha T_T

You read the headline, so you know what I want done.

All over on Wikipedia it keeps saying that he's Madara Uchiha. HE'S NOT!! They've shown a real picture of madara, and that's not him, obviously.

I know that in the manga he says "He has Uchiha Madara's power... my power..." but what he actually means is that he has the SAME power as Sasuke, he is NOT saying that he is Madara.

So SOMEONE needs to get on there and change that! please —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.149.22.27 (talk) 01:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Sure, right after the Fourth Hokage isn't said to be Naruto's father. We've had this discussion a million times. He's Madara. Deal with it. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

And after my fourth edit conflict with SineBot today, I end up EdConning with Someguy... Thanks... You Can't Review Me!!! 01:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

So since Madara had long hair ~70 years ago and Tobi has short hair today, they're completely different people? What, do haircuts not exist in Naruto? ~SnapperTo 03:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Not unless they're doing it for symbolic reasons, apparently. I think Sakura's the only cast member to actually get a haircut. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Ino copies Sakura soon after that, and Lee had a ponytail when he was younger. Those are the only noticeable hair decreases that come to mind. ~SnapperTo 21:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Tobi may claim he is Madara but keep in mind it still doesn't confirm the fact that he actually is Madara. Tobi is revealed to be a goofy person so maybe he could be lying and just like to refer himself to someone of great power. Enoch08 08:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Because someone of Pein's status would take orders from a goofy new recruit without any proof? You Can't See Me! 08:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, we do take that into account. Note that we say he "refers to himself" as said character. We may not believe he's lying, but our bases are covered regardless. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

We know this much for sure: if he isnt Madara, we know hes an uchiha becuase we've seen his sharingan more than once.side note: I hate that people kept thinkin he's obito. look, his body was crushed. Which means...HE HAS NO BODY! So even the theory that Madara inhabits his body is dumb. Granted, Orochimaru did have that one technique. But I doubt they'd use it in this. It'd be too redundent plot wise.--Chipmonk32819 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 14:26, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean he's not obito? zetsu refers to him as young. And who's not to say obito's still alive? Unlike madara, obito's only supposed to be in his late 20's. And the stitches in his arms are probably there because of his wounded body. Not to mention that there could still be some hidden underneath his akatsuki cloak. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.183.207 (talk) 04:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

in my opinion tobi's identity is still unsure apart from one page they've yet to use the name madara in association with tobi i mean until its known for sure you shouldnt go around claiming its the truth i mean some people (myself excluded) actually use this site to confirm facts so isnt the whole point of wikipedia to make sure that the information is 100% accurate before putting it up - Xeogen

Use some context was there really any reason for Tobi to tell Pein and Konan 'I am Uchiha Madara' if they already knew that and were working for him the whole time? he may have said 'I am Uchiha Madara's power' or reffered to the power being his, and in context it is far more likely. Plus in chapter 370, at the end, it was ambiguous about his identity. -FFFX —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.31 (talk) 15:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Probably for the same reason that villains stereotypically tell the heroes their plans, to reveal crucial details of the plot to the audience, regardless of how unlikely it would be in a realistic scenario 66.24.226.134 23:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, until he takes off his mask and Kishimoto makes it blatently obvious that he is Madara, Obito, or whoever the hell else he could be, you shouldn't be calling him Uchiha Madara because of the ambiguity of the quote and Kishimoto's reference to him as "he" at the end of 370, refusing to use a name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 13:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

But how could he be Madara? It even says that Tobi is young in the article. Madara's the founder of the Uchiha Clan, isn't he? So he ought to be pretty old. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.199.93.79 (talk) 17:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe this poll is here twice but here goes first if you want the whole unlikely madara version read the comments put on the first poll,secondly sorry for you Someguy0830 but the fourth is naruto's father and finaly the tobi being uchiha madara is a theory just like tobi being obito and should be both stated and stated as theories —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.97.16 (talk) 23:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Theories are not stated as per WP:V and WP:OR. Tobi's calling himself Madara, and that's all we can verify for now. –Gunslinger47 23:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Its not a theory. Tobi said in horrifying English "I am Madara Uchiha." No theory, its stated in the manga which means as of now its fact. The Obito thing has yet to be stated aside from a few similarities put together by people on the internet, thus not being fact but Original Research while what is said in the manga is fact. Very clear.--TheUltimate3 23:52, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Is Deidara Alive?

I found a blurry summary of ch. 371. I think it says that Jiraiya encounters Deidara. But I'm not 100% certain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.53.37 (talk) 10:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

No. You saw Jiraiya run into Konan.-DylanUchiha 6:53 EST 21 September 2007

no that was Pein in Deidara's or a Deidara look alike body--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 06:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Retarded Merges and Pictures being taken down

I know this is a little off topic. BUT, for those who are tired of the stupid merg orgies that keep happenin with the naruto section on wikipedia...welllll...ther is this: [[2]] Sooo.....if u want more info go ther...tho it does need to be more up to date ther..its getting ther. So now those complaints (at least on my part) are dropped. Also, for others who have been complainin about it, they should now as well.--Chipmonk328 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 14:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Pein's New Look. (Deidara?)+Pein and Konan's past

Pein's new look greatly resembles Deidara. Check him out! Plus, Pein and Konan are revealed to be former students of Jiraiya (If what I read was correct. Kanji is difficult). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.204.100.226 (talk) 16:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I wish I could post a picture of Pein's new look. Unfortunately, I can't. One more thing: Doesn't Pein resemble Naruto or Deidara in any way? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.53.37 (talk) 00:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The person in the following pictures does hold a slight resemblence to Deidara, specificaly in regards to his hairstyle, athough it doesn't really seem all that notable. 66.24.226.134 01:20, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

http://bp1.blogger.com/_VkIbHKDK5Dg/RvFxZGtSuaI/AAAAAAAAA0U/aroAgMQv4vY/s1600-h/Naruto+371.jpg http://bp3.blogger.com/_VkIbHKDK5Dg/RvFxPmtSuZI/AAAAAAAAA0M/r2aaV3fUf04/s1600-h/Naruto+371+Naruto+371.jpg

the second one looks nothing like deidera, and i doubt theyd be his student, i mean we just found out for sure that naruto is minatos son, i dont think theyll throw something else big at us for like another 3 yrs lol. but if they did suddenly start revealing crap, people might stop reading and lose interest. whats next, konan is kushina but with dyed hair.....Threatening force 03:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

We'll have to wait until there is a verifiable source. No original research please. σмgнgσмg 10:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm going out on a limb to say both of thsoe people are Pein's subbordinates and neither Deidara nor Pein. I mean, Piercings don't change that quickly for one, for two Deidara blew hismelf up pretty good. There wasn't any life left in the 10km radius I doubt he did anything to survive that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.31 (talk) 15:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Tobi and Sasuke survived. Why not Deidara? He might've had more tricks up his sleeve. Or he might've blown up another clone. I'm not saying Deidara IS alive, but I thought it was best to at least look into this. Why would Kishimoto make Pein's second body resemble Deidara so much? Is he running out of character looks? Then again, just a thought. One more thing: I'm still curious about what Pein's other forms look like. Was it four more, or five more? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.53.37 (talk) 22:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

But no evidence has been given to infer Deidara's survival. Where the person from chapter 371 has a similar hairstyle to Deidara, his face really looks nothing like him. Further, this resemblence seems largely irrelevant; both Orochimaru and Madara have dark hair which covers their right eye, but this does not mean that they are the same person. 66.24.226.134 23:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking Pein cloned himself as Diedra, & that the original Pein isn't really the original Pein, just another clone. Sort of like a Sasori thing. 2:25 Sept. 21

But where does one get the impression that Deidara appears in chapter 371? Where there is someone pictured who has a hairstyle similar to Deidara (though not identical), his face really looks 'nothing' like Deidara's. If anything, he resembles the Third Kazekage (who is already long dead). 66.24.226.134 20:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Distinction between Madara and Tobi

To begin with, I am not adding another "Tobi isn't Madara" comment. As of now, the section on Tobi seems to refer to the behaviors he displayed before he was revealed to have authority over Pein and afterword almost interchangibly. For instance, after the article states that he refers to himself as Madara Uchiha, the following sentence goes on to describe the carefree personality he desplayed as "Tobi". In addition, this sections ends by stating that he is implied to be relatively young, despite the fact that Madara was stated to live at the founding of Konaha. What I am suggesting is that this section be reorganized slightly as to enstablish a clear distiction between the personality he displays while interacting with the Akatsuki members, and his personality as "Madara". 66.24.226.134 23:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest we do what One Piece did and split the information between Tobi's Akatsuki section and Madara's Land of Fire section, like they did with the CP9 members. Just give the information above the guise of Tobi to Akatsuki and about Madara to Land of Fire, and link to the other sections. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 13:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that would be a wise idea, as pretty much the manga says "Tobi is Madara" blah blah blah. No need to link to something we know next to nothing about. I say just make it clear that Tobi is a guise of Madara or (most likely) a split personality that he has control over. --TheUltimate3 15:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I more or less agree with what TheUltimate3 suggested, in that the description of Tobi/Madara should not be split up between two pages. Again, what I was preposing was that the personality he displayed as "Tobi", and all the attributes applied to him by others (carefree and goofy, is 'a good boy') be distinguished from how he presented himself while talking with Pein and Konan, regardless of whether the Tobi persona was an elaborate disguise, a dual personality, or any other interpretation (although it would be too soon to mention any of these theories, as they are just that, fan theories). In the same vain that Keyser Söze would not be described as a small time con artist afflicted with cerebral palsy, neither should Madara be described as a carefree and childlike character, unless he is revealed to have behaved as such prior to joining Akatsuki.66.24.226.134 18:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of what he may or may not have called himself you should not be calling Tobi Uchioha Madara until he takes the mask off and proves it. At the end of 370 Kishimoto left his identity ambiguous, not saying his name at all but calling him "he". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 13:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, anything else is Original Research, and I don't even need to link you there to know that it is not allowed on wikipedia. Arukan Harless 18:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

But what was mentioned in the opening post was that this was not meant to be another debate as to Tobi's identity, rather it was a suggestion that the section on Tobi clearly distinguish between the personality Tobi presents to Akatsuki, and his personality while speaking to Pein and while standing at the Madara statue. If one wanted to discuss whether or not Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga proves Tobi to be Madara, or if his identity is still undetermined, there are likely dosens of other places to discuss that. In my opinion the article ought to have a structure akin to "When first introduced Tobi...[description of his being presented as carefree and goofy, brightening the orginization, being referred to as 'a good boy', etc]" and in a seperate paragraph have "Following Deidara's death, Tobi is shown giving Pein orders, and refers to himself/ infers himself to be Madara Uchiha...[description of him as much more serious and arrogant, utilizing the Sharingan, etc]". This exact wording probably wouldn't work for the article, but this general structure might clarify to readers that Tobi does indeed undergo a significant change in behavior. 66.24.227.23 02:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The pictures

I think that there should be pictures of the members and the pictureof the latest face of pein or all the faces —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.201.23.162 (talk) 01:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Foundation seems to think otherwise. You Can't See Me! 02:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

what do you mean?

You can read, correct? ^_^ If so read the link he gave you it explains everything.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 00:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

why not? theres pics in naruto and the others —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.62.206.250 (talk) 22:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

In universe banner whont go away!

Will somebody please fix the article. The in universe banner is still there and hasn't moved once. This is because you're using tenses, implying that earlier in the series was at an earlier time, which it wasn't it was simply earlier in teh series. Somebody has to clean this up by removing 1) the membership status from each character entry. 2) the categories 'current members' and 'former members' and add 'original members' and 'changes to the Akatsuki roster' or something to that effect. Just because a character dies in chapter 360-something doesn't mean that the character is dead because the character still exists in chapter 340-something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.31 (talk) 15:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I second the first choice, but not the second. If we were to put the two together, then we'd have to put back the Membership Status things, and it would be much more complicated to the reader to know their status. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 21:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Why would you need to add the membership status back if you chnaged the categories, both need to go to achieve what must be done. You have to start with the original ten and mention teh changes to teh roster throughout the series. That's all. 'Original members' contains all members except Tobi and possibly Orochimaru, and then mention that Orochimaru left the organization before the series, and on the event of Sasori's death Tobi joined. Other than that the members have been killed off and remain unreplaced after their defeat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.31 (talk) 02:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

No, that would be too confusing, and there are better ways of sorting them out, this one being one of them. With fictional series that are still running, you merely use the information in the tone from the latest chapter, book, etc. rather than from the very first chapter. Deidara, Hidan, Kakuzu, Sasori, and Orochimaru left, and Tobi is thought to be dead in this current chapter, so we list them as such. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 13:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Then why does Wiki have a problem with the 'in universe style' then if it's all well and good? The tenses aren't correct for this kind of article and I don't see how any of the suggestions I gave would be confusing. A short paragraph stating the simple fact that Orochimaru defected pre-series, and that Sasori died first, thus replaced by Tobi, and after that Hidan and Kakuzu were incapacitated/killed, followed by Deidara. Other than Sasori the lost members have gone unreplaced. Wiki wouldn't have a problem if it was fine as it, and I don't see too many issues within the text itself so it must be the organization. Even if I'm wrong something's gotta be done eventually to fixc the problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.31 (talk) 01:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

What you don't seem to understand is that there is no "original ten" members. There was never a period when there were ten members at once, and there never will be. And just so you know, the in-universe template was added a long time ago, not recently, and back then we listed the member's eye colors, blood type, jutsu, specific traits, and a bunch of other things that were clearly in-universe, and we also refered to the Naruto world in an in-universe way ("world domination" over "domination of the Naruto world", for example), so the template is now questionable. Either way, the way we list members now is better than the one you thought of right now. Don't be discouraged, however, I'm sure you'll think of a different one. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right... there in mention that Kakuzu had a bad habbit of cycling through partners near constantly before Hidan. Perhaps if you simply list the 'known members' and list off all members past and present... I don't know I'll have to think a little harder, but you're right, you're absolutely right. The article has come a long way and it's on the verge of having that banner removed, it just needs that final shove I think and changing the way it's organised to remove tenses would be that deciding factor I think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 17:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Konan's past

Konan is jairyas former student but with dyed hair —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.163.8 (talk) 19:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The spoilers imply that but we should hold off adding the information until the actual scanlated version comes out. -ScotchMB 21:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not certain how legitimate these pictures are, but it would seem like they could be useful.66.24.226.134 18:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

http://bp0.blogger.com/_VkIbHKDK5Dg/RvPZvWaifDI/AAAAAAAAA0s/w21ySDC6XpA/s1600-h/Naruto+371+Spoiler+Pics+and+Summaries+04.jpg http://bp3.blogger.com/_VkIbHKDK5Dg/RvPZkGaifCI/AAAAAAAAA0k/LhdZwI3sIsQ/s1600-h/Naruto+371+Spoiler+Pics+and+Summaries+05.jpg

once again, this is not a forum, and should not be treated as such. until konan is revealed to be jirya's former student, it should not be discussed on this page. stick to discussing the facts, and the subject matter that should be included in descriptions of characters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RogueFox (talk • contribs) 19:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The following page has an english translation of Chapter 371 66.24.226.134 00:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC) http://www.msnusers.com/NarutoMangaReturns/narutochapter371english.msnw

Add on to Pein's Section

Shouldn't we give any info about his new form? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.53.37 (talk) 01:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

You must not know about Wiki's trivial traditions. No information about Pein's new form will be added until the chapter comes out. Intellect Ninja 11:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

What are yu talking about? The new chapter already is out! It came out in Japan on Wednesday! I read and looked at it with my own eyes! Pein's new body, him and Konan being Jiraiya's students, it said it all! This is fact! Not speculation! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.53.37 (talk) 20:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

But the large majoirty have not. Most people wait until the proof is out to "everyone" when there is a subbed release. No sub that the majoirity can find is equal to saying "no release". Interesting huh?--TheUltimate3 20:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I suppose that makes sense. Very well. I'll wait for a subbed version to come out. Sorry. It's just, I can read Japanese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.53.37 (talk) 20:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC) ]

No worries. The primary thing that are trying to prevent is people adding false information and attributing it to their assumed knowledge in Japanese. When everyone sees the scans, then it can be widely confirmed, and the informatin added without significant controversy. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 23:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Pein/Itachi/Madara/Konan

Pein:

In Chapter 369, those six bodies are 6 different Peins. He can change to any of them at will. However, they are modeled after the dead Akastuki members. Also, Pein is NOT the leader of Akastuki. Tobi is. This leads me to my next point.

Tobi:

Tobi does not say he is Madara. He MAY say that, but the text can translate 2 ways: "The Sharingan's power, my power, Uchiha Madara's power". "The Sharingan's power, my power. I am Uchiha Madara". This theory is highly believed and is enforced in Chapter 370, which ends with Tobi on top of Madara's statue in the Valley of the End.

Itachi:

I do not think that Itachi killed the Uchiha clan of his own free will. I have notcied that Itachi does not want to kill anyone. Anytime he fights he tells them that he does not wish to kill them. I think that Pein or Tobi somehow made Itachi do it. It's also possible that it was a clone made my Pein and that Itachi had nothing to do with it.

Konan:

She has been confirmed to be Minato's teammate(Jiraiya's student). —Preceding unsigned comment added by DylanUchiha (talk • contribs) 22:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

1. The other akatsuki members refer him as the leader so he is the "leader"
2. We had many discussion about this. Please read the archives. If something comes up, we'll just change it.
3. Wikipedia is not a forum.
4. How was it confirmed? -ScotchMB 02:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

1. Tobi gives Pein orders and said himself he was he mastermind.
2. ok
3. never said it was
4. Chapter 371 confirms it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DylanUchiha (talk • contribs) 02:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

1. Mastermind doesn't equal leader. Pein leads Akatsuki and he is led by Tobi. Big difference.
2. Covered.
3. Yet you're using it as such.
4. Hinted is not confirmed. Even the closing statement explains that their connection is unknown. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

1. Agreed with Someguy0830
2. WTF??
3. How is he using it as a forum. Please clarify.
4. We had a similar argument anout the Fourth Hokage being Naruto Uzumaki's father.

ItachiUchihaArticleForTheWin 02:53, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

In regards to Itachi, Wikipedia is not the place to propose that the source material is wrong and suggest a completely unsubstantiated theory in its place. If you want to discuss the possibility that Itachi is an innocent pawn in a grander scheme, then do it in one of the many Naruto forums floating around the interwebs. ~SnapperTo 03:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

that's a nice speculation about pain and itachi but we do not do speculation and tobi was saying he was madara it is just hard to put it in japanese to english and it is hinted that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.111.74 (talk) 02:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

We know that Pein refers to Jiraiya as "sensei", and we know that Jiraiya has known Konan since she was young. Other things can be assumed, but they are not WP:V. –Gunslinger47 05:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Remove part about Pein looking "exactly like Deidara".

Why cant people say what they want on a discussions board. he was just pointing it out to see what other people think it is not on the actual pein page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.163.157 (talk) 05:06, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It is an opinion, and sounds a bit unprofessional. --Vehgah 01:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

• I agree, I'll remove it. -02:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ScotchMB (talk • contribs)

Pein or Pain?

In both translations that I have read his name is spelled Pain. Is there some overriding authority as to the correct translation somewhere? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.106.33.90 (talk) 03:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no official spelling. "Pein" is merely the more popular choice. ~SnapperTo 03:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If we're going by Japanese spelling, it's "Pein"... "ei" in Japanese is pronounced like "ay" in English. Jazz Band Member 11:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Spelling it phonetically, you'd get Payeen. –Gunslinger47 05:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, after chapter 373, it's pretty obvious it should be Pain. 72.168.196.22 05:06, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it's obvious that Nagato chose his name because he said, and I quote "... I just wanna keep them safe, no matter what kind of PAIN I go through." end quote. Doesn't that explain it? Although, i agree with those who might say this is a speculation since pain is an english word, so why would the author choose it in a japanese manga. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.214.41 (talk) 19:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Pain, Konan and Jiraiya

In chapter 371, pain mentions that he has no love for his old teacher, Jiraiya. Isn't this means that one of the 2 unknown genins in Jiraiya's first team is Pein?Bence560 06:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Naruto was a student of Iruka. Were they ever on a team together? You Can't See Me! 06:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

what? What does that have to do with pein or jiraiya? you, sir, make no sense! nut then again, this wiki is full of lies, as they remove a lot of things or cover up stuff revealed in the chapters. I also noticed a lot of missing info that used to be there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.95.51.48 (talk) 12:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Pein and Konan were Minatos teammates back when he whas a genin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.171.83.99 (talk) 13:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

His comment made perfect sense. He was illustrating that Pein and Jiraiya could have had a teacher-student relationship without necessarily being on the same team, using Naruto and Iruka as an example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zevin64 (talk • contribs) 15:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

sorry, I misread that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.95.51.48 (talk) 00:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Wait, he only said, "I hold no more love for him." He didn't say anything about a student/teacher relaionship. Plus, remember that he's a Rain ninja. Although there's a very good chance now that Konan was Minato's teammate. (Hamstergirl591 21:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamstergirl591 (talk • contribs)

Aoi from the fillers is a Rain ninja, yet was a Leaf ninja. Same concept here. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Fillers don't count. And as to the main point, it was said in chapter 372 that Jiraiya, Konan, a boy named Yahiko, and and another boy named Nagato(who's eyes at the end of the chapter are shown to be Pein's, But it is still speculation that this boy is infact Pein), had a teacher-student-like relationship and refer to him as sensei when Jiraiya and the other Sanin where in the Rain Village. It is not known if Pein and Konan leave the Rain village and go to the Leaf Village at this point. -Zasukesan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.246.59.17 (talk) 03:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Piercings

Just something to take in mind, every time you talk about Pein piercings you refer to them as "face-piercings" or "piercings in his face". You should note that they are not just in his face, at least in the first body he shown he also had piercings in the lower parts of his arms (seen in his first appearance, he enters the room grabbing the frame of the entrance and the sleeve of his cloak lowers a bit, revealing the piercing. Also seen when dispelling the "rain jutsu", the sleeves moves and you can see them in both arms this time). Piercings along his body could be more accurate. 22 September '07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.224.60.72 (talk) 10:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. However, until his second body is seen with arm-piercings, it won't be added since detailing how each of his six bodies appears would (eventually) be cumbersome. If you see the piercings on this body let us know so we can add it. ~SnapperTo 18:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Chapter 371, page 12 first vignette. In this aerial perspective of Pain you can see piercings around his collarbone. Is that's enough to remove "face"? 29 September '07 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.224.60.72 (talk)

The article on Pein is based on a character whose name isn't Pein and who uses clones to move around for what we should care is finding out his identity and write his article based on it, not on a clone body, his piercings and appearance are irrelevant info that make the page longer unnecessarily. 66.50.153.104 16:22, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Pein?

does any of the other akutsiki know everything about Pein and his past? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.242.126.228 (talk) 16:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Please don't put a space before the post; that stretches it. Do they? Probably not. But you never know. Jazz Band Member 17:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Add on for Tobi

Shouldn't we mention what Tobi says at the start of ch. 371? "Will Sasuke remain a snake? Or will he shed his skin and become a hawk?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.53.37 (talk) 20:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

And this matters alot to Tobi because...? Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 23:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT#IINFO. You need to have a reason to include information, otherwise it's indiscriminate. –Gunslinger47 05:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought it might give hints as to what Tobi's planning. As well as what he wants with Sasuke. It might even hint what WILL happen to Sasuke. However, I'm guessing you guys will think it's too early to add this on right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.204.100.226 (talk) 19:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

how can that hint to anything? and sign your posts--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 05:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

hey, when deidara died and tobi went back to the akatsuki hide out, he mentioned he had the power of uchiha madara, and just recently jiraiya had mentioned there was just only one person who could summon the nine tails, and that was madara! and when naruto was inside the his inner conscious and sasuke had invaded, the nine tailed fox had had noticed sasuke's eyes and had mentioned madara thus making it clear the nine tails had knowledge of madara or they have crossed paths!, thus concluding my theory, TOBI CAN SUMMON THE NINE TAIL FOX! but maybe that is the reason the 4th sealed it in his only son huh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Codenamenothing (talk • contribs) 17:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Summon and control are two different things. Naruto could summon Gamabunta, but he had no way of controlling him. Regardless, I really don't se ehow this info is mention worthy beyond the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox and Madara Uchiha section.--TheUltimate3 17:58, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

well, lets see the ability to summon a force strong enough to destroy an entire village could really be the strongest attack in the show, as too, what are the akatsuki trying to do? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.93.229 (talk) 20:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Old Friends

PEIN AND KONAN COULD HAVE BEEN OLD TAEMMATES OF THE FOURTH TURNED TRAITORS.

IT MAKES SENSE SINCE THEY TALK THE WAY THEY DO ABOUT JARAIYA, HAVE INCREDIBLE ABILITIES AS NINJA, AND ARE WELL AWARE OF KONOHA'S TRADITIONS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.145.229.171 (talk) 01:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

your wrong they were rain village kids Jairiya looked after when their parents were killed in a the war. he watched them and one other for a while. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.163.157 (talk) 05:11, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I think Konan is the girl on team that the Fourth was on under Jiraya. The girl in the picture looks like Konan. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/91/Jiraiyageninteam.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Icyfire221 (talk • contribs) 02:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Konan has blue hair not black, remember to sign your posts and don't talk in all caps--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 12:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

There is always hairdye. Jazz Band Member 13:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

In Yu Yu Hakusho Kurama had black hair in teh manga and red hair in the anime. It's possible that when the anime colored the image they didn't think those two would ever amount to anything and had no ide what color they would be. Now it's coming back to bite them because it's a discontinuity error, unless conan's hair is still black in the anime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 17:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not agreeing that Konan IS Jiraiya's student, but, colors mean nothing. They colored in Obito's goggles clear in the anime, and orange in the manga. In the manga, they both have their hair colored black with it pulled up in the back. Resemblance is strong. But, who knows. DarkRyan75 20:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The latest manga chapter showed that Konan and Pein were refugees of the Rain Village that was looked after by Jiraiya until they could fend for themselves. σмgнgσмg 02:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Tobi/Madara

isn't it about time we change Tobi's name to "Uchiha Madara"?--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 12:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

no matter what those translators say, we can't be sure. Jazz Band Member 13:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

after everything that has happened i have to say he IS madara--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 00:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I would have to say he MAY be Madara. Kishimoto has not said very clearly that he is Madara and he could still very well be someone else. We need to wait until he removed his mask and is identified properly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 18:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Technically, he refers to himself as Madara, but in that situation, his character is significantly different. We still don't know the entire situation regarding the entire Tobi/Madara duality, so it's best to leave it as "refers to himself as Madara" for now. You Can't See Me! 22:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Well if you cante tell by now Tobi really isn't Madara. He is trying to reach Madara's power. It is obvious that Tobi is in fact Obito, Kakashi's old teammate. Hence the Sharingan in the opposite eye of Kakashi, and the bolts on his suit holding his body together after his near death experience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Starfox2430 (talk • contribs) 14:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

No, technically he could be saying either "I am" or "This/that". Since the word could go either way, he technically said nothing. Besides Kishimoto made it clear that we don't know who he is at the end of 370. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 21:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Because we hadn't whored out the Great Kawa's words enough:

Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

In short; he didn't just say "I am" or "This/that" he said, like a Bond Villain, he said he was Madara Uchiha.--TheUltimate3 21:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Uchiha Madara is the only person who could summon the Nine Tailed Fox, that is Uchiha Madara's Power. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.93.229 (talk) 20:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

We still talking about this? I wish scanlations were done via a wiki so that poor, incorrect or outdated translations would not be so persistent. –Gunslinger47 21:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Regardless I'm waiting until the mask comes off. Then I can shrug if you're right, and laugh at you if you're wrong. I personally have no clue, and I'm not willing to just blindly throw all of my consent onto a single sentence. So far it seems, to me at least, that the Kyuubi believes Sasuke is just as capable of controling him as Madara and was saying he has 'the same cursed chakra' as Madara, so why not other Uchiha? The face will tell no lies, while a spoken sentence that 'most likely' says he's Madara could be proven false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.30 (talk) 01:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

"The face will tell no lines"? Obviously you weren't watching the articles related to Aaroniero Arleri when he took his mask off. :) –Gunslinger47 03:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Look, whether, Tobi IS Madara or not, this article reports the truth--that Tobi calls himself Madara. Does that mean it's true? No. We're just reporting the information and it's fine until a new revelation of what Tobi meant. This subject should really be over by now.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 01:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to bring this up. On the Japanese forums, there is no translation issue. Most everyone refers to him as Madara. 69.19.14.40 10:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Question

And this is not meant to be a forum question, but a "Did I miss them explaining this?":

Alright, Itachi, Tobi, Pain, Konan, Orochimaru are all Konoha missing-nin (at least, if Tobi really is Madara). Kakuzu once fought against the Hokage, and Hidan has a special hatred for them, doesn't he? Was Akatsuki built with a primarily anti-Konoha slant, or am I just seeing a pattern that really isn't there? (Well, I guess Pain was also against the Mizukage, and Deidara and Sasori against the Kazekage, but still...)KrytenKoro 01:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Uh, maybe..? For all I know, it hasn't been explicitly implied beyond the (probably coincidential) tidbits that you mentioned above. For all I know, they want to bankrupt all of the hidden villages, not just specifically Konoha. Also bear in mind that Deidara hails from Iwagakure, not Sunagakure, and Pain hails from Amegakure (or, at the very least, has some kind of connection to it), not Mizugakure. You Can't See Me! 02:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Tobi is from Konoha. Being Madara or not, the Sharingan is proof enough. Only Uchiha members have Sharingan. And all Uchiha members hail from Konoha.71.168.85.188 22:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)Fantasy Leader

what if tobi took madara's sharingan. kinda how kakashi got his from obitos. This could explain how tobi said "this power, madara's power"- not direct quote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.163.157 (talk) 05:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

372 scans

This webpage has (appearently legitimate) scans from chapter 372. http://naruto-xx.blogspot.com/2007/09/spoiler-pics-naruto-372.html 66.24.231.57 19:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Akatsuki

all the Characters of akatsuki should each have their own main articles like Orochimaru and alot of other Naruto characters because we can read about their personality, history, abiltis and so forth.

It pains me to admit this, but unfortunately, none of these characters has what it takes to sastisfy WP:FICT and thus they can't have an article all to themselves. I argued this point througly with the people who did the merge on Itachi, but it seems after careful review that they were right. It does not satisfy WP:FICT. ItachiUchihaArticleForTheWin 01:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Nagato, Konan, and Yahiko

From what I've read of 372, this is what is known:

Konan can grow wings from her paper, cannot fold them when wet, can shoot the feathers like bullets in a paper air-plane shape, and is Pein's apparent messegner, earning the nickname "God's Angel", god being Pein.

All three are refugees from Rain, where their parents were killed in a war (apparently the one Obito died in, too). They find the Sannin, and get food. The three ask for training, though Orochimaru suggests killing them instead, since their life will only suffer. Jiraiya instead sends Orochimaru and Tsunade off and lives with them in a hut, where they have dinner and discuss the war. Nagato remembers how this reminds him of his real family and begins to cry. Yahiko also appears defensive of Rain, wanting to stop the "crying rain" (he compares the constant rain to tears) and protect the people. The next day, however, Nagato and Yahiko go missing, and when Jiraiya and Konan find them, and Yahiko explains that a Stone Chunin tried to take their money (or that of other refugees), and Nagato killed him. Jiraiya looks at Nagato, and suddenly Pein's eyes are his. Jiraiya also hints those eyes have a major purpose, asking if he could be...?.

Interestingly, Pein is actually Nagato, rather than Yahiko as first suspected. Yahiko has blond hair and looks alot like Pein. Nagato has black hair that usually covers his eyes. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 01:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

That chapter freaked me out when i saw that eye.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 01:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Pein and Konan as Jiraiya's students

If this translation is in fact accurate, then it would seem that Pein and Konan are likely the other two members of Jiraiya's team: http://www.msnusers.com/NarutoMangaReturns/chapter372.msnw 66.24.231.57 01:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Not confirmed. All we know is that he looked after them. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:27, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Pein refers ta jiraiya as jiraiya sensei meaning he thought them something and hence can be considered his students —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.97.16 (talk) 23:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

After 373, confirmed, because Yahiko asked Jiraya to train them, and in the flashback-ish part, they attack him, using ninjutsu and such. So doesn't that mean they were taught that? Or are you implying they knew those powerfull jutsus. — Pejmany 20:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

About Pein's former name

Shouldn't we wait until it's confirmed which one of those two kids really was Pein? Nagato may have Pein's eyes, but Yahiko shares what seems to be the same ideals Pein operates by (changing the way Amegakure is run, etc). I think it would be safer to wait it out rather than to base everything on his eyes. The Splendiferous Gegiford 02:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

That's like saying "let's wait for conformation for that guy with the sharingan to see if he's uchiha" or something like that. i agree that maybe we should wait one more week but come on those eyes are pretty unique, like sharingan and maybe Nagato learned from Yahiko ideals. But that's just speculation on my part. And guess what... the Cubs are in the playoffs! Cheers!Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 03:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

And should we not apply the same hesitance of "let's wait for conformation for that guy with the sharingan to see if he's uchiha" (as poorly written as that sentence was), for who is one of the most reknowned and earliest known sharingan users of naruto? Certainly not an uchiha, but Kakashi who had the eye of an uchiha placed within his skull. Can we not be certain this wont hold a similiar tale? I suggest holding off any jumps towards a conclusion. -Midusunknown 04:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, we don't know the exact circumstances surrounding what happens to these kids yet. It's best to hold everything off until we know exactly what happened. The Splendiferous Gegiford 05:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

did you not read the manga, it tells you what happened to them--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 06:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Pretty sure it doesn't, unless you're reading it from the future. The Splendiferous Gegiford 06:36, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

might i ask why theory and speculation are being presented as facts? there is no proof even by statement that Tobi is Madara, or Obito. anyone can claim being Napoleon, but it doesnt mean they are. likewise we know only that Konan is Konan from what we can tell. the leader could be anyone as it seems he can jump bodies. and the light haired Pein had the eyes similar to Nagato, while NAgato had dark hair. this in itself conflicts with the assumption that he is in fact Pein/Pain. it is uncertain which if either Yahiko or Nagato are in fact Pein. WP:Crystal_Ball#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball. Articles that present extrapolation, speculation, and "future history" are original research and therefore inappropriate. shadzar|Talk|contribs 06:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I guess they could have gone all "give me your eyes or I'll take them" or something but yeah i guess we should off on that until confirmation. Cubs are going to the pllayoffs! Cheers Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 23:14, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Ever seen a raw -_- --Blue-EyesGold Dragon 07:58, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

From what I recall about switching bodies from Orochimaru, the eyes are a reflection of the soul, and regardless of what the bodies eyes appeared to be before, once Orochimaru's sould was in it, they became yellow and slitted and lined with purple. So far as it seems, Nagato is Pein and his eyes hold the same property as Orochimaru's as they remain the same regardless of what body he's in since Pein's been in two so far and both had those eyes, we can assume it wasn't a transplant. If it was a tarnsplant and Yahiko is Pein, then Pein 2.0 wouldn't have those freaky eyes. Dojutsu are another issue as Orochimaru claims to be able to aquire the Sharingan if he takes over the body of a Sharingan user, so those are not transfered with the soul. We can assume, if a Hyuuga were to take over soembody's body in this manner, then the body would aquire white eyes, but not the Byakugan bloodline, likewise an Uchiha would have black eyes in a different body, but not the sharingan. If Pein uses a Dojutsu with his eyes, then it's either not a bloodline, or all of his bodies have the same bloodline. If he does not use a bloodline, then his eyes just look wierd. I know there is some speculation in there, but it's not the important part of the paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.12 (talk) 02:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Chapter 372 and it's relevance to the page

I'll first like to point out a speculative point concerning Pain before I actually get into the factual stuff.

The body we all know Pein from, the one we first saw him in, isn't his real body. I think, from the look of everything we have seen, that Nagato (aka Pain) is merely using Yahiko's body. That would explain both why the "default" body of Pain is identical in hairstyle and facial structure as Yahiko and it would also explain why he would presumably use it when contacting the Akatsuki - what better way of keeping your identity unknown than to use someone-else's body? In addition, I would assume that Nagato is actually fulfilling Yahiko's dream for him - controlling the rain, and making everyone pay for what they did. He did crush Amegakure on his own, remember?

Anyway... The proposed updates.

Konan and Pain were not students under Jiraiya. During his time in Amegakure, he merely taught them how to survive. From what we currently know, the jutsu he taught them was no more than mere survival-enabling jutsu (such as a fishing technique and how to cook food with a single fire jutsu).

Pain's "default" body appears to be a lot like what Yahiko's would have grown up to be. Whether this means that Pain IS Yahiko is debateble, given his tendancy to not stick to a single body. His second body, however, is still unknown and should not be mentioned outside of the aforementioned tendancy.

While Yahiko is the leader of the group, it is evident that Nagato is the strongest. As noted by Jiraiya at the time, he managed to kill a Chuunin on his own without any combat experience AND we know now that Jiraiya showed fear upon seeing those eyes. This heavily points to Nagato being Pain, beyond having the same eyes, as he is well-known for being stronger than the 3 Sannin put together during their prime.

Jiraiya, against the wishes of the other two Sannin during the mission, stayed with the three children. It is quite evident that neither Orichamaru or Tsunade felt this was a good idea - Konan even points out that her and Pain are only alive because of Jiraiya (hence why they both still call him Teacher). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.123.164 (talk) 08:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Referring to him as sensei indicates a mentor relationship; ergo, regardless of whether they were fully trained or not, they did train with him, making the statement valid. The rest is your own original synthesis that is not suitable for inclusion. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 08:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I still feel that two points should be noted...

1. That the 372nd chapter does show that Nagato killed a Chuunin with very little, if any, combat experience. Alongside this, I would highly suggest adding the note in chapter 371 (I think) of the generally accepted strength of Pain being exceptionally greater than the three Legendary Sannin put together.

2. That Konan and Pain WERE NOT the two ninja in Team Jiraiya, as many speculate. That they, alongside a third child who is either Yahiko or Nagato, were trained by Jiraiya only to the extent that they would be able to survive.

While you may consider it original research, there is no questioning the canonicality (is that even a word? xD) of the above two statements. They are not me "reading between the lines", as I'm merely referencing what is said. Evidently, Sephiroth BCR, you haven't understood why I brought up the validity of the comment about the two being students of Jiraiya. While the statement is generally true, I would personally see it as more beneficial if the statement wasn't so general. Being specific never hurt anyone. 82.34.123.164 08:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

There's no need for what you suggest. For one, comparing strength through indirect defeats spanning decades is a logical fallacy. Two, it would be needlessly redundant, and no doubt be later proven false, to try and separate them from Jiraiya's Genin. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

The implications of that event on Nagato's strength are unknown because the circumstances are unknown. Your stating that Pein is stronger than the Sannin would be an example of original synthesis, as pointed above. Whether Pein or Konan were in Team Jiraiya is irrelevant - they were trained by him, however short it may have been, and view it as significant enough that they address him with the sensei title. In any case, the threshold for inclusion into Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Illustrate a source for its inclusion. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 08:54, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

How so? What is needlessly redundant about clearly defining that neither Pain nor Konan were on the same team as Minato? Also, how is there "no doubt" that it will be proven false later on? From what we know so far, from what Jiraiya said, he never left Amegakure with the children. I don't think it's a case of needlessly redundant, I think it's a case of you're going a little too far with the anti-original research guidelines here.

You are literally saying that the relationship between main characters should not be clarified simply because you have not heard Jiraiya say "Konan and Pain were not on the same team as Minato". Now while many people here evidently aren't writers or anything, I can safely say that spelling things out is both tiring and anti-climatic. You should expect that your reader will know what's being said without you needing to spell it out for them.

Ohhh... So if one were to need conclusive evidence concerning the above facts, then I'm afraid we'll never have it up on Wiki. Quite simply, it seems quite clear that everyone DOES expect everything to be spelled out. Sure, you aren't directly told that Pain is roughly greater in strength than the 3 Sannin - it's heavily implied, though. Why else would we have been told that Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orichamaru were all defeated by one man, who was in turn defeated by another - Pain - sometime later during the fall of Amegakure?

While I don't agree that people here should expect to be directly told things before they add them to the page, I'll concede... Evidently, rules and guidelines take precedence over common sense here. 82.34.123.164 09:05, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Another thing is whether Pein is "Pein" or "Pain". I would assume it would be "Pain", as Yahiko's ideal. George Leung 18:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

We haven't been told if Pein is Nagato or Yakuki, so why don't we just wait a chapter or two to assume anything? Cause this could turn into another Tobi/Madara/Obito thing. Jazz Band Member 12:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

So can somebody get rid of the machine thing because it is not known of yet it is still speculation so please change it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.116.168 (talk) 22:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It was speculation prior to the point where he is seen in an entirely different body. Now there is no other explanation for it. ~SnapperTo 02:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

On the manga I read, it's "Pain". So I would assume, in keeping with Yahiko's wish to inflict pain to everyone, that such a translation certainly makes sense. I also still think that there should be some mention of Pain's power in relation to Konan's comment about his strength - the fact that he killed a Chuunin as a child with little training IS an important fact in regards to his strength. 82.34.123.164 00:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Pein Is Nagato and jacked Yahiko's body —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redsand182 (talk • contribs) 04:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

If what you said is true, 82.34.123.164, then why wouldn't they just make his name Itami, or another Japanese word for pain? If you write "pain" in romanji, it's "pein". Same word, same pronunciation, different spelling. Jazz Band Member 10:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Tobi's has changed

Tobi's attitude isn't goofy anymore anyone who reads his text would imply that he still is. The moment he claimed obtaining Madara's power he gives orders and ponders on top of Madara's statue, this isn't what his article tells you. The text "After Deidara's death, Tobi is shown giving Pein, the leader of Akatsuki, orders, and he refers to himself as Madara Uchiha.[34]" should be placed at the end of his text along with his attitude changes, for the text to appear in a chronological manner. Another thing we don't know if he originates from Konohagakure. His name is not Uchiha, if it was then his article should be Tobi Uchiha and not simply Tobi or Madara Uchiha should be placed in the akatsuki page, and we know you don't have to be Uchiha to have sharingan and this is a fact (Kakashi), stating that he might be Uchiha and doing it the way it is written in the article is sloppy and it is original research. Lets wait patiently for the manga to explain. And that goes for every single character in the series. 66.50.153.104 16:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Tobi Is Mandara Uchiha so he is one of the first uchihas in konahagakure as Jiraiya had mentioned 3-4 chapters ago —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.116.168 (talk) 18:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Then why don't we change his name to Madara Uchiha, you say a few chapters back Jiraiya metioned something (Jiraiya hasn't even seen Tobi)... why didn't you quote? He did mention a theory, his theory about the Nine Tails appearance having to do with Madara. Separate fact from original research. 66.50.153.104 02:10, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that the person who started this category was trying to suggest that Tobi was or wasn't Madara Uchiha, rather it seems that he was pointing out that Tobi does act as an entirely different person following the death of Deidara, but that you might not know that from reading this article. I myself made a similar suggestion earlier on, in that the information regarding Tobi's behavioral changes should be seperated from how he presented himself to Akatsuki, regardless of whether he is Madara or not. (On a side note, perhaps the article should read that he is inferred to be Madara, as to avoid potential speculation)66.24.231.57 05:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The article state that he "refers to himself as Madara Uchiha", not that he actually is. There's a big difference there. Anyways, I don't really see why that sentence ought to be moved to the end of the paragraph. So far, the structure of Tobi's section is as following: Membership status -> Personality -> Mysteriousness. I'll get to work on rephrasing the sentence about Tobi's supposed Konohagakure origins, though. You Can't See Me! 06:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Mysteriousness is part of the personality, what the article should follow is Membership, Personality and Plot or whatever is going on in the present, this is hard to tell with the current text. 66.50.153.104 01:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

By listing 'mysteriousness' under 'personality', this infers that he consistantly portrays the same personality traits throughout the series, that is, that the 'Tobi' currently giving orders behaves the same as the 'Tobi' introduced as Zetsu's underling (no, I am not saying they are different people, merely that he behaves differently.) Following the death of Deidara, Tobi greatly alters his demeanor from something of a comic relief to that of a more authoritative personality. Rather than describing the personality traits of 'Tobi, the good boy' and 'Tobi, who holds the Sharingan's power' interchangibly, it would seem the most informative to rearrange the section on Tobi to make this distinction clear. 66.24.231.57 23:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Former Member Kabuto

Can someone take a look at Kabuto's information and restore the Plot info, cause it says nothing about him thats important or anything about whats presently going on and he is Orochimaru's only way to return to the series and that make him an important character, equally important as Orochimaru, maybe someone vandalized it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.50.153.104 (talk) 16:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Kabuto Yakushi

Main article: Kabuto Yakushi

It's there. You Can't See Me! 06:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

We need to change Pein because...

Because the machines is still(good)speculation and we don't do speculation. So please change that please and thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neverknowndragon (talk • contribs) 18:34, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

what? explain what you are trying to say, and sign your posts--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 07:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

i took care of it but it said something about pein having six bodies and he could switch them though a machine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.116.168 (talk) 14:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

So Pein having a new body and him being in a capsule with 6 other bodies is a speculation? I dont understand what you are trying to say. -ScotchMB 21:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

it hasn't be proven yet so it is speculation and he has a new look so far but not a change of body right now

But Pein said that he took out that body to hunt the intruder. -ScotchMB 01:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

In the next manga chapter 373, it's revealed that the name of Pein's transformed eyes is Rinnegan(possible traslation) and it's the strongest of the three eye jutsu. So, I guess pretty soon we will need to update Pein's abilities. For more spoiler info check out: http://naruto-xx.blogspot.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.210.118 (talk) 08:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

ye plz add the picture of the outline of the ninja of the "Rinnegan" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.196.137.10 (talk) 00:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I will in about 20 minutes--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 06:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

If you do upload the Rinnegan image, I feel it would be much more approprate on the Kekkei genkai page than on this one. You Can't See Me! 06:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Chapter 373

There is a Chinese translation of Chapter 373 at http://naruto-xx.blogspot.com/ . Where the original Japanese version of the manga may be more convinent, it would seem that this could still be put to some use. 66.24.227.23 00:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

In chapter 373, It is revealed that Pain's bloodline limit is one of the "Three Legendary Doujutsu." His eyes are called Rinnegan. It means metempsychosis eye. The creator of all jutsu. One more thing: Konan originally hailed from Hidden Rain. 71.168.85.188 01:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader

you cant put that in yet till it is out in english--Acetylseryltyrosylserylisoleucylthreonylsery 01:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

it's out in English. Jazz Band Member 20:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Pain, not Pein

Sorry if this has already been discussed. But Pain's name spelled with an "a" not a "e." Why? Because Yahiko and Nagato mention a lot about the feeling of their pain. This is why the Akatsuki Leader is referred to as Pain. It's just like Maito Gai is actually spelled Might Guy. 71.168.85.188 01:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader

wrong--Acetylseryltyrosylserylisoleucylthreonylsery 01:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

To elaborate on that, Pein is nowhere near his official introduction in the Latin-alphabet versions of the anime/manga. As of yet, he has no official romanization, so Wikipedia goes by the Hepburn romanization that is closest to the original katakana. If Might Guy's official English spelling hadn't been released, for example, we would probably be going by "Mait Gai". You Can't See Me! 02:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Because "ai" in romanji is pronounced like a long "i" (like Sai, and Kurenai). "ei" is pronounced "ay". Jazz Band Member 20:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you meant "Maito Gai", which I think threw off your credibility. There's also the fact that Rock Lee was accepted long before an official romanization of his name was available.

it's pretty obvious that it's supposed to be the English word Pain, because they keep going on and on about their pain. There's also the fact that "ぺいん" (Pein) has absolutely NO relevance in Japanese. There aren't even any Japanese words that start with the sound "pe". Pein means nothing in Japanese. As far as I know, with the exception of Might Guy and Rock Lee (the only other two characters with names made of foreign words), all other characters have names that actually mean something in Japanese. WtW-Suzaku 00:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I actually meant that "Mait Gai" was the proper Hepburn romanization prior to the revalation of their names in English. Should an "o" come after "t" or "d", it's left out. Now, "ai" has the same pronunciation as the "i" in "Might", but there was no reason for us to choose "Might" over "Mait" until his name was released. Likewise, "Pein" may very well be "Pain," but we have no reason to believe that "Pain" is the proper spelling aside from logical conclusion, which is original research. Instead, we go by the romanization closest to the original katakana, regardless of the fact that it does not mean anything: Pein. You Can't See Me! 00:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Switch to Pain imo. Altough both spellings work, Pain is both more accurate and seem to fit the theme of the Nagato / Yahiko / Konan arc. Although the second point is an inference (as I'm sure some kind Wiki editor will both point out and flame me for) it's better than calling him Pein just to spite the inference; doing so is just as wrong. AnimeNikkaJamal 00:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

We will wait until it is official. Of course it is likely "Pain," but until we have 100% certainty, it will be "Pein" which is the proper romanization of his name. The great kawa 00:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Rinnegan

In the previews of the next manga, it shows Pain useing and a technique called Rinnegan, which transformered his eyes to what the look like now. I think that it should be mentioned somewhere in his bio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.76.123 (talk) 02:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Done!--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 06:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

New Info on Pein!

Pein is Nagato! On saiyan island they have a translation guide. That guide states that Nagato is pein. Please repond and put up the new info! —Preceding unsigned comment added by RasenganController (talk • contribs) 05:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

We will wait until proper english translation is out. Meaning one that everyone (who speaks English) can easily find and see. Until then, we wait.--TheUltimate3 10:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I read it this morning in English. Nagato is Pein. Jazz Band Member 20:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Jazz! I just read it in English too! Nagato Like I said earlier is pein. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RasenganController (talk • contribs) 20:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Konan

As of now, all the information on Konan has been deleted from this article. Is there any perticular reason for this? 66.24.227.23 19:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'd like an explaination as well. Cathy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.4.6 (talk) 20:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah What Happened to Konan. Controller

It appears to have been simple vansalism. Everything was removed by one user without any explination and has since been readded. --67.68.152.38 21:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that part about her not being able to use her origami while wet should be clarified. While in ch 372 jiraiya uses an oil based technique to stop her paper, in ch 373 she's using her paper while it's raining. I'm not sure why oil affects her paper more than water, but it's something to think about. 68.85.155.211 00:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

That's a good point; however, in Ch368, Konan only starts to use her jutsu to find Jiraiya immediately after Pein stops the rain. Celeritas 20:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Konan's from Hidden Rain

Can someone please put up that Konan is a missing-nin from Amegakure? It's been revealed in the last chapter. Yes I know she's not wearing any visible headband, but it said that she's from Hidden Rain. 71.168.85.188 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader

I don't think so. where'd you get this info from. I read the latest chapter and it does not come out and say konan is from Amagakure, hidden village in the rain.71.168.85.188 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC) The Naruto King —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.85.22 (talk)

She's from the Land of Rain. Amegakure is within the Land of Rain, but all ninja from the Land of Rain are not necessarily from the the hidden village. Case and point, Konan was trained to be a ninja by Jiraiya and was not loyal to Amegakure at the time when he left her group.

Pein now wears a crossed headband of Amegakure, which means that after Jiraiya left them he joined the hidden village under Hanzo, then scratched out his headband when the civil war broke out. It is quite possible that Konan never allied herself with Amegakure and was simply following Pein and Yahiko around. –Gunslinger47 17:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

If that's the case, then what village is she from? 71.168.85.188 17:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader

We don't know. I'm not saying it isn't possible that Konan is from the Rain Village, it just it was never said, so nothing has been confirmed..—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.85.22 (talk)

Konan's position on Akatsuki

Can we consider Konan a higher staus above Itachi and Kisame? Obviously Madara is the leader, with Pein sort of a figurehead (or second in command) Originally most people thought Zetsu held a higher status above the majority of the members, because that acted upon him as leader when he gave Pein's orders, but then on the otherhand, Konan refers to Pein by his name, a practice not done by the rest of the members. This may be because they were childhood friends but I digress.

One thing I don't like is on Konan's bio it says;

Konan can even form wings from that allow her to fly. This has led to her title as "God's Angel" amongst the villagers of Amegakure, a reference to her doing Pein's bidding

Yes, Konan was helping Pein when she went after Jiraiya, but I think "doing Pein's bidding" is a wrong statement to use here. There is nothing to confirm Konan plays the part of Pein's servant. It's a partnership. If anything, Pein and Konan are both second in command to Madara. Personally I feel it should read;

Konan can even form wings from that allow her to fly. This has led to her title as "God's Angel" amongst the villagers of Amegakure, a reference to her being an equal in the eyes of Pein, second in command along with his partner Konan, to Madara.

71.31.85.22 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC) The Naruto King

The Rin'negan

This info on the rinnegan is original research and should be changed. "Rinne (輪廻) is also the Japanese term for Samsara, the cycle of reincarnation or rebirth in several Indian religions; this possibly explains Pein's ability to switch between bodies." This should be a fact page and possibly is not a term that should be used on wikipedia. It is an interesting fact but sadly the manga hasn't revealed this. 65.23.245.27 01:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The manga hasn't revealed a lot of things, but this is based on the Rinegan's english translation, Metemphychosis, which is transmigration, the ability to switch bodies.

This is not relevant information, the naruto world is apart from our world, switching bodies has nothing to do with rebirth or reincarnate, it's info that does not belong there. Point is that we should look at this information as if we're relating to the naruto world not with ours; finding out where the author created the word from has nothing to do with the kekei genkai described. 65.23.245.27 03:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, how fictional topics apply to the real world is the point of Wikipedia. We write about and consider fictional topics in the scope of the real world, not in the scope of a fictional universe. Read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction). Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 03:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Konan is not Pein's servant.

I made a request to change Konan's bio referring to her "doing Pein's bidding", spare me this mockery of Wikipedia. Konan is no way Pein's servant, how is that supported by anything evident in the manga? Yes, she was helping Pein, but that doesn't mean Pein doesn't see her as anything more than his minion. I'm not requesting this part of Konan's bio to be changed, quite the contrary, I'm demanding it.

"It is the will of God." or something to that effect. If that doesn't say "I am doing this because he told me to, I.E. bidding," then nothing else does. Also that being said Pein isn't a person who would use anyone in the Akatsuki as minions but she does seem to be Peins arm in the village.--TheUltimate3 13:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but this makes Konan seem like she is that the same status as the rest of the Akatsuki members when she's obviously not. She calls Pein by his name, something no one else does and therefore something he must find disrespectful. Surely Konan knows that Pein is a person, unless they both see themselves as god-like beings. That being said though, Konan has been with Pein, who was once Yahiko and changed his name only when he transfered Nagato's Rin'egan eyes implanted into his own eye sockets, still making him human. This is similar to the way Kakasi got his sharingan eye, only that was a gift from his teammate and friend Obito, where as Yahiko wanted Nagato's eyes for less noble reasons. This however doesn't make Konan a slave to Pein, they were friends, they are partners, and equals. -The Naruto King