Talk:Fraud

So Uri Geller cannot be a fraud because he does not commit a crime? Andries 04:26, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This article discusses the crime named "fraud", which has a specific meaning in common and statute law. If Uri Geller has committed that crime, then he is literally a fraudster, yes. However, we also often use crimes as metaphors in English -- "The Red Sox murdered the Yankees," "Douglas Hofstadter stole the word 'meme' from Richard Dawkins," "The corporate restructuring raped, pillaged, and looted the IT department." In this sense, if Uri Geller makes his living by fooling people, he is a fraud even if he has not actually committed the crime called "fraud".

Wikipedia is not a dictionary. We don't usually record every metaphoric or dialect use of a word that happens to be the title of an article. In a dictionary, entries are about words and their usages. In an encyclopedia, articles are about things that the words just happen to refer to. --FOo 05:25, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Lawyers seem to like capturing words and seizing them for their own use, then referring to everyone else's use of them as technically incorrect and mere metaphor! Case in point: John Austin actually declared that the word "law" itself, when used to describe laws of nature, was merely an analogy and basically metaphorical, while etymologists believe that the word "law" was actually in existence and usage before lawyers took it over. It's obviously correct to say that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. But do look "fraud" up in the dictionary! According to the Oxford English Dictionary fraud has two meanings - the legal sense and the wider sense of intended deception (I am slightly dubious whether the OED has nailed the second definition spot on - three other dictionaries require wrongdoing or unfairness even in the broad sense of the word, but the OED only requires intent to deceive. But please note that all 4 definitions I have checked up in refer to a wider phenomenon of fraud, and two of them don't note the legal meaning at all!). The wider use is not just a misapplication of the strict legal sense of fraud, it is not just a metaphor, it actually refers to a phenomenon in its own right - one that spans art, scientific research, medicine, politics and entertainment. This phenomenon is not so broad that it would be unencylopaedic to cover it. Further, you can't just say "for information on the non-legal sense of fraud, see Hoax", because the phenomonen of fraud actually encompasses things like ballot fraud which hoax doesn't. It will take some work to produce a wider article, but for now I will at least change the wording of the introduction and put in a link to "Hoax" which covers some frauds which are not frauds in the legal sense. --VivaEmilyDavies 23:39, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

When editing this I removed the reference to Pater Pio under the criminal fraud section (as a "pious fraud"). Did he really commit criminal fraud? I believe he was a hoax, but was he acting for personal gain? If not he isn't even a fraud in the civil law sense, or even in the broadest, not specifically legal, sense if you ignore the OED and include a requirement of personal gain for fraud. At any rate (a) his own article doesn't list him as a certified fraud, declaring him to be one here would be both inconsistent and POV (especially as anyone wanting to defend Pater Pio from allegations of fraud might not know to come here and do it - this page links to Pater Pio but not vice versa) and (b) the place to cite him as a fraud would be in the "examples" section further below - but those known examples seem to done-and-dusted, legally-proven cases of fraud, amongst which Pater Pio does not fit. "Pious frauds" as an idea is well worth keeping in the example, and hopefully will be made into a very interesting article, quite probably covering Pater Pio - but that's the place to do it, not a throwaway reference here! --VivaEmilyDavies 00:10, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Also, thinking about it, I don't think the statement on the legal definition is correct either - fraud doesn't have to be a tort or crime in its own right, I know that at least in England and Wales, "fraud" may form an element of another crime, such as kidnap. Some work needs to be done... --131.111.8.97 18:02, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fraudulent hoax

We should merge some content from Hoax and Fraud to Fraudulent hoax. --TheSamurai 23:29, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

ManyFacets 8:49, 8 Dec 2005(EST) Legally, fraud has some very specific definitions. Since I am not a lawyer, and do not even play one on the Internet, can a lawyer or law student take a look and add the below constituents of fraud to the wiki definition?:

The elements of fraud are:
1 An affirmative misrepresentation
2 Scienter – Intent
3 Must be intended to induce reliance.
4 There must be reliance.
5 Must be damage

Fraud & Skimming Cases

According to rules and regulations any card available at the merchant outlet or swiped before reported lost/stolen or skimmed, the card holder would be liable to all the transactions. why would one go through the whole saga of dispute when he/she is liable for the transaction even when he/she did not participate in it. There is no 100% trust on these pieces of plastic? What can be done to prevent fraud and skimming cases? What happens if the organisation doesn't have the amount of customers to meet the chip & pin standards?

Employers fraud?

If an employer intentionally under-pays its workers, presenting the amount of wages paid as the correct amount (e.g. by reducing hours on wage slip or miscalculating) when the correct wages would be higher, is that fraud? Or is that some other crime? I assume it is a crime? N-edits 16:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

VANDALISM

The "N..." word appears on the wikipedia page for 'fraud', over and over. I dont know how to remove this. It only shows when you use the small search box and type in "fraud", but not when you search from the homepage. It doesn't appear to be editable. Please remove this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.19.148.87 (talk) 04:06, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

Addition of "g00ns" to Notable Fraudsters

I believe the ^subject headline^ should be executed. However, if others believe this would boost their morale, ignore my request.

Adding a link

I work for the America's Most Wanted Safety Center, a new department of America's Most Wanted getting away from the capturing of criminals, and branching out to all aspects of safety. I feel a link to our post about spotting and reporting email scams would be appropriate and mutually beneficial because it would give fed up patrons of Wikipedia the opportunity to see justice served. The link is http://www.amw.com/safety/?p=32 please consider it. Jrosenfe 16:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

See Also

A link to Fraud deterrence should be included in the "See Also" section. 4111cca 18:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I've added the link, but in the future you can be bold and add it yourself. Also, don't forget to sign your posts by typing ~~~~ at the end of your posts. Natalie 18:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I wanted to be bold, but the article was semi-protected and wouldn't let me change it. Sorry about the sig.... 4111cca 18:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

My bad, I didn't notice it was semi protected. We've had problems with a persistent IP vandal. Natalie 18:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Funny enough, it now lets me edit it, anywho, thanks for doing it anyway! 4111cca 18:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Your account is four days old, so it is now "autoconfirmed" - you can now edit semiprotected pages as well as move pages. Natalie 21:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

First footnote

The first footnote in this article appears to be a link to a commercial website. Shouldn't it be removed?

trimming the see also section

The see also section is getting a bit too long to be very useful, but I'm not sure what should be cut. I did notice, though, that most of the see alsos are specific types of fraud, so perhaps we should create a "types of fraud" category or page and then simply direct people to that. Thoughts? Natalie 20:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

See External links! smallscams.com does not exist

Checked on http://whois.domaintools.com/smallscams.com and it says Small Scams does NOT exist. You should remove it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fortisever (talk • contribs) 22:14, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Shinichi Fujimura

Here is the article about the criminal offense. Although Fujimura's misconduct can be seen as a fraud in the general meaning, there's more suitable article such as Scientific misconduct or Academic dishonesty, in which Fujimura was already mentioned. And I think there is a more appropriate example of scientific fraud than Fujimura's one. --Amagase (talk) 12:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I added the more famous examples of scientific frauds than Fujimura. You satisfy this, don't you? And I warn Appletrees not to make a personal attack without any evidence --Amagase (talk) 13:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)