User talk:Kwork2

Hang in there

Don't let User:Akhilleus aggressive tone and refusal to follow the WP:NPOV policy frustrate you and stop you from continuing to edit Jesus myth hypothesis, as that seems to be exactly his stategy. Some people dont seem to be able to see past their own POV and feel the need to turn articles into ways to advance that POV. That's exactly what we don't need on Wikipedia, and if you give up he'll succeed. DreamGuy (talk) 14:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I second that Malcom, hang in there. I will read up on the dispute and see if I can help. Stay cool Albion moonlight (talk) 01:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

RE: "Christian religious nuts"

Listen, you need to tone down the rhetoric^[1] and observe civil discourse & etiquette. Hope I won't need to remind you again. Thx. Regards, El_C 12:32, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Please stop making personal attacks. Comment on content and sources, not on other editors. If you can't learn to do this, you'll be blocked. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:02, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I got this under control. El_C 13:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I am surprised that you are issuing a warning about an item on the talk page that is over two months old. And all the more since I already said I am finished editing that article: [2]

But if you think that justifies sending me back into wiki-exile, go ahead. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 13:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I thought it was from today! (that's the impression I was given; that's there's an emergency) El_C 13:28, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I really have been trying to keep my sarcasm under control. That is not so easy for me, but I am trying. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 13:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, my apologies for the oversight. I just naturally assumed from the tone of Akhilleus' plea that it was from today. But I should not have glanced so superficially, regardless of anything, so I take full responsibility for this unexpected & unwarranted discord. El_C 13:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The editing of that article has been always difficult. I had asked Vassyana to take a look at the situation [3] because I have a lot of respect for his opinion. But He is having access problems, and this accusation may have poisoned things now anyhow. But whatever the case, I do not intend to do any editing of that article again. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 13:49, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Not as gracious as I expected, but sure, whatever. Goodluck elsewhere. El_C 13:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm so sorry, I also (carelessly) thought that link was from the last day or so. No warning was needed at all and I take it back. All the best, Gwen Gale (talk) 14:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Listen to Sirubenstein

I do not really kow that much about the sources in question but the user in questions comment at the bottom of that page make a valid point about contextualizing those sources. I trust Sirubensteins opinions in general. And it certainly doen't seem worth fighting or losing sleep over. Albion moonlight (talk) 01:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

New anti-Semitism

You say "both sides." I thin there are more than two sides.

Tariq Ali is on the editorial board of the New left Review which makes him equivalent to an academic in that he wries and reads and regulates contributions to an important academic forum.

I think your comments may help clarify how we identify his point of view but in no way justifies removing his view. All notable views get included. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Vase1r 800.jpg

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Image copyright problem with Image:Vase2r 800.jpg

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Image copyright problem with Image:Vase3r 800.jpg

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vase images

Malcom I saw the above notices. These images look to me as though they're likely to be your own work but you should pick a license and put more information about each of these photos on their image pages and if that's not enough, may need to send verification to WP:OTRS (this last step may not be needed though). Gwen Gale (talk) 19:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Gwen Gale. The three vases are my own work. I know that there is more information needed, but it is difficult for me to figure out the process and I may not have time for it today. Thanks. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 20:05, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Let me know if or when you need any help then. :) Gwen Gale (talk) 20:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

license

First thing to do is to pick a license as soon as can be, GFDL or Creative commons. I much rather like creative commons licenses (you can pick whether or not you want attribution, if derivative works are ok and whether commercial use is ok). I think GFDL is way too heavy. Hence, since I'm biased about it, I can't say which would be more helpful for you. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've added cc licenses to each page as requested (by the way, I'd forgotten that on Wikipedia one can't forbid commercial use and still upload an image as free, see strike-out above).

Please add NPOV image descriptions! These images could float about on sundry networks for centuries or longer and maybe it's at least worth trying to help folks know what they are. Cheers, Gwen Gale (talk) 21:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I like your vases Malcolm. Kudos. Albion moonlight (talk) 09:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

your intentions

Hi, I am sorry if I misunderstood or misrepresented your intentions. My comment was a reaction to one specific comment you made on the talk page. All I meant to say is that we editors often add views we personally find ridiculous or a laugh or just factually wrong - if doing so is consistent with our NPOV policy. Tariq Ali has a view about the "New Antisemitism" it does not matter whether his views are supported by facts; what matters is whether they are notable. The article should include his views not as authoritative statements about Israeli or Zionist history, but as an example of a certain kind of view about Israel and Zionism. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I understand you position on Tariq Ali...although I do not agree. A particular difficulty is that the section of the article where that paragraph was originally located is now deleted [4]

I had suggested the deletion [5], but it was deleted without discussion of the implications, which I did not want to happen. So the problem now is that (I think) the Tariq Ali does not belong where it is now, with the more scholarly discussion, and the section where it logically fit was deleted by csloat. I think this whole long argument could have been avoided by being more cautious about that. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 16:31, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

What you say here makes a lot of sense. If you could find a new context/section for the quotes, that would be acceptable to you, you would make a big step towards ending this particular conflict. I think the context is at least as important as the quote itself (the context in which Ali wrote; the context in which we discuss the quote in the article). Slrubenstein | Talk 16:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The simplest solution might be to return the Political Directions section to the article -- with Tariq Ali's paragraph returned to there. It will still be a quote farm, with the disputed paragraph being a contributer to that. But, perhaps, in an article as disputed as this, large amounts of direct quoting may be unavoidable.

I do not know if other editors will agree it, but I could live with returning that section to the article as a compromise solution to the dispute. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 17:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Malcolm--FYI I replied to your query on my talk page. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 17:19, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I recommend bringing your compromise suggestion to the article talk page; it seems a reasonable solution. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 18:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

New antisemitism

I'll try to get back to the article as soon as possible, but I'm a bit pressed for time right now, and fruitless discussions with rude, close-minded, and biased individuals who aren't particularly interested in policy isn't as high on my list of priorities as other things. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:19, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify. I was horrified by the behaviour of csloat - not even understandable, just against, whatever. Since he is the first to answer to my note, I wanted to tell you that.--UbUb (talk) 14:49, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me? Horrified why? Because I disagreed with you? I've been more than civil here so I'm not sure why you directed such an uncivil comment at me on someone else's talk page. Anyway hope you have a good day. csloat (talk) 19:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

welcome back!

Hi Malcolm,

Thanks for your note. I really don't know much about that topic. What would you recommend as a good starting source? Also, welcome back -- change of heart?

Best, Renee Renee (talk) 16:46, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

August 2008

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on New antisemitism. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. RolandR (talk) 21:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

3RR

Thank you for the warning, but you are the one who made four reverts in about 6 hours. I'm not going to report you, since I was reverting you as well, but it appears that you are the one who should be careful about violating the 3RR, since you did violate it quite blatantly. Now perhaps you will abide by the consensus? Thanks. csloat (talk) 22:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Four?! O shit. I never was any good a counting. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The back-and-forth of edit warring never helps. You both might want to think about keeping yourselves to 1rr for awhile. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:18, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Gwen Gale, certainly you are right about reverts.

This situation is very frustrating. You might notice, above that csloat denies I offered a compromise. But I did. Its an offer I mentioned to Slrubenstein too, in the "your intentions section", just above here [6]. When I just looked for the compromise offer on the article talk page, I could not find it, and hope it was not deleted. It would not be the first time I have seen editors make convent changes to a talk page.

In any case, in editing situations like this, I do not get angry and I do not give up. Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:42, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

New Antisemitism

Hi Malcolm - I think you raise a very, very interesting point on my talk page. I have to preface my remarks by letting you know two things, if they aren't obvious to you already: first, I have not really worked on the New Antisemitism article; from what i have seen it is very contentious and frankly I'd rather not get involved in the arguments. Second, the only motive I have had in supporting the inclusion of material by Tariq Ali (and Yehuda Bauer) is my desire to see a wide range of diverse views represented, not just because this complies with NPOV but because in principle I think it makes for more interesting and informative encyclopedia articles.

Now, as to the point you raise, you may be right. But I can think of one counterargument. Ali, Bauer, and whomever else you and others would agree are "reliable sources" on this topic are secondary sources because they themselves are analyzing or opining on other texts - the zombie photo, for example, or graffiti in Paris, or a speech given in London, or whatever. I would suggest that these things - photographs, signs, posters, graffiti, statements, pamphlets - are the primary sources and lectures, articles, and essays that debate as to whetehr these things are evidence of a New anti-Semitism, the same old anti-Semitism, or are simply not anti-semitic (but rather anti-Zionist or anti-Israeli policy) are secondary sources. This is the view I would favor. But I do think your point is intersting and worth considering.

I would add one last point. I think that if you are right it means that there are some phenomena to which the primary/secondary source distinction simply does not apply, because they are as you point out so recent. The question is, how does our NOR policy apply? Some people think NOR means editors cannot rely on primary sources. But I would argue that if there are no secondary sources, or all secondary sources are also primary sources, then this interpretation or provision of NOR simply does not apply. I would say that WP:SYNTH becomes the crucial element of NOR that we have to apply - editors can use sources without getting bogged down in arguments as to whether they are secondary or primary as long as it is crystal clear to everyone that the editor is not synthesizing anything.

A final remark - these are just some thoughts I have I wanted to share with you since you took the time to write on my talk page. But in general and in principle I think the best-qualified people to deal with these conundra are the editors working on an article. Yes, I have posted a few comments especially recently on this article's talk page, but I never added (or deleted) any content. So I do not think I am really qualified to make any definitive comment on your question. I guess if the conflict escalated to the point where there was an RfC I would post something like what I just said, above - my views on how NOR relates to this stuff ... but I would only do that if it reached an RfC and the views of outsiders were explicitly (and generally) being sought. Short of an RfC I really think those editors who have contribued gthe most stable content to the article, or who have been active on the talk page the longest (say, over six months) are the ones who should hash this stuff out. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I was sure you would be a good person to ask.

It is not my intention to raise this question on the article's talk page because, at this point, I am not sure how much significance it has for the article, if any. There does seem to be some peculiar problem with the article, but I can not quite put my finger on it. Perhaps, with time, an intuition will flash and I will understand just what about it bothers me.

In any case, I probably will not have much to do with the article for now, and suspect that my presence will not be missed. There was a reason for my entering the discussion when I did, but at this point that reason is of no importance.

Once again, thanks for your reply.....and for your patience. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 14:06, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

No need to thnk me for my patience, I could say the sam to you - WP is all about misunderstanding and confusion and taking time to sort things out. I never questioned that you meant well; in the end pehaps we just have a difference of opinion. Anyway, I would indeed be glad if my musings here were at all helpful. Ultimately I think most issues in Wikipedia shoud be resolved through patient (if at times contentious) negotiation between good faith editors, this includes how to interpret and apply policies as well. Good luck contributing to other articles, Slrubenstein | Talk 03:16, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Re:Message left on my talk page

Discussion about what? Removing non-free images? Like how we have discussion before removing pictures of penises from featured articles? No. That's not the way it works- it's up to those who wish to include non-free media to convince everyone else that it's needed, not the other way around. Trust me, removing images contrary to our non-free content criteria is pretty standard stuff- myself and others do it every day. J Milburn (talk) 11:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry this removal process was so rough- I guess I treated the article as I would have treated a character list, discography or article on a children's film, when the best course of action would have been something a little more conservative. I'm only human, hopefully I'll improve my methodology for next time- I'll certainly choose to contact the WikiProject (which seems to be very efficient) if I come across similar articles with the same issue. Thanks for seeing it through. J Milburn (talk) 20:42, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Stoicism

No problem and thank you for working on such nice things, I love philosophy too! Cheers. — Orion11M87 (talk) 19:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:AN/I

I have reported your disruptive activity to WP:AN/I. Hopefully administrative intervention will encourage you to follow dispute resolution rather than just lying on the talk page and pretending you aren't making the edits you are obviously making. csloat (talk) 16:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Malcolm

I just wanted to say hello and note that it's great to see here. I find Wikipedia frustrating at times, but i also know that, as the largest repository of information currently on the web other than raw search-engine lists, it is never a complete waste of time to edit here. I was surprised to see you show up for the AfD on the DOS -- i myself don't usually follow that debate, but this group has links to other groups that made it interestng to one such as myself. If the article goes, then those links go -- which makes understanding the way the world works a little more difficult for the next generation -- which is why i fight for the incluson of such articles. But you know that already, i suspect. Anyway, great to see your name around, and i hope we find a few more pages of common interest in times to come. Catherineyronwode a.k.a. "64" a.k.a. "Nameless Date Stamp" 64.142.90.33 (talk) 19:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

New Thought

This article in hardly complete Creative visualization is used in every branch of New Thought. Follow the link. 69.86.63.13 (talk) 14:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I added reference.69.86.159.34 (talk) 15:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi the comparison of how many external links the Catholic article has no bearing on and the New Thought page wiki does not have any set number of external links. I will revert those which have a bearing on NT. Thanks66.108.92.43 (talk) 22:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

DOS AfD

Catherineyronwode has removed upon request the offending remarks from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daylight Origins Society. I doubt that we can get through this without some degree of rancor, but I would at least like to get the worst of the sniping off the AfD page. Would you be willing to strike or remove your off-topic comments? I am making the same request of Orangemarlin. - Eldereft (cont.) 18:11, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

If OrangeMarlin removes the sentence that is insulting to Catherineyronwode, my comment upon it would would become pointless, and I would be very happy to remove that edit also. (But please note that, in my view, points on uncivil edits are not ever "off topic". In fact, I added my comment after Catherine remove the source of your own complaint.) Malcolm Schosha (talk) 18:36, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Never mind, the discussion is closed now. - Eldereft (cont.) 19:28, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Esoteric Astrology

Hi Malcolm, What do you think of this? I don't quite understand what s/he's saying (other than that the signs were reversed?)? Thanks, Renee (talk) 12:01, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I never read AAB's Esoteric Astrology; and, although I know it presents a different approach to astrology, I do not know anything about the differences. The statement could be correct, but it certainly is not helpful as an explanation, so that alone makes it problematic. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 14:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Barry Long

I have responded to your comments on the Talk:Barry Long page. Thank you. 78.151.255.93 (talk) 18:30, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I replied on the article talk page. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 19:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Quotes

I certainly didn't add the quotes, I just highlighted what was already there. I thought you were planning on doing something with them, otherwise I would have removed them myself. By all means, feel free to remove them. NJGW (talk) 17:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Personal attacks

This edit is a personal attack. Stick with the topic and not with the editor. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 19:13, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Stop complaining. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I know plenty of Italian, thanks. "Capice" when used in an English forum is typically used as a put-down. Also, not a good idea to talk back to the user above ... pick your battles properly BMW(drive) 23:07, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

BMW, I know nothing about pop culture uses for that, or any other word, but I did live in Italy for seven years.

I say what I think is needed, not what will win me popularity points.

For when Vespasian sent for Priscus Helvidius and commanded him not to go into the senate, he replied, "It is in your power not to allow me to be a member of the senate, but so long as I am, I must go in." "Well, go in then," says the emperor, "but say nothing." "Do not ask my opinion, and I will be silent." "But I must ask your opinion." "And I must say what I think right." "But if you do, I shall put you to death." "When then did I tell you that I am immortal? You will do your part, and I will do mine: it is your part to kill; it is mine to die, but not in fear: yours to banish me; mine to depart without sorrow."

I should put this on my user page. I have been sent into permanent wiki-exile twice, and if it should be necessary to leave again, then that is what I must accept. So if you think I have done something to send me into wiki-exile, go ahead. Let me know if what I have said is not clear. Understand? Malcolm Schosha (talk) 23:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

How about this ..."don't bite the hand that [helps] you"?? BMW(drive) 23:43, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about giving you a hard time. (But please remember, I was not the user who made the complaint. I was the object of the complaint. In that regard, if you think I am in violation of WP rules, no need to do me any favors, but do what you think is right.) Malcolm Schosha (talk) 23:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I agreed that this was an editing issue early on, and don't feel you were giving me a hard time (I'm reasonably thick-skinned) - but I do believe that you proved in WQA that you can be uncivil, and don't give a shyte about it when confronted ... that won't do well later on. BMW(drive) 11:30, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no point in my giving an expanded explanation of my reasoning. Perhaps I do not belong here, and should leave those who do in peace. Certainly, I can be abrasive in certain circumstances, and since your skin is thinner than you want to admit, you felt it; and it is natural that you would want the source of irritation removed. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) That would go outside of my firm, personal belief that "everyone has something to add to Wikipedia". Yes, I saw your abrasiveness. Yes, I pointed out a few spots that would obviously be thought of as insults. Other than that, meh. ɃMW(drive) 21:21, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Your edit at WP:FTN

Do you have any idea what happened with this edit to the section on Polytheistic Reconstructionism? (Note the changes to the two posts previous to yours.) I've seen you around enought to know you're not a vandal. Could it have been some kind of server or browser error? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 07:57, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea. All I did was add my edit. I suppose it could be something I caused inadvertently, although I don't know how. (But "don't know how" pretty well characterizes my bewildered efforts here in Wikiland, where my lack of computer know-how sometimes does make problems.) If you figure it out let me know. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Categories

I've put the articles back into Category:Kabbalah. Now please get off my back (re your comment in the move discussion). Bob (QaBob) 17:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Negative comment

No worries. My edits certainly looked boneheaded! Wiki was displaying only old versions of the article when I was editing for most of the last hour or so. Had to clear my cache to get it to function properly. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

October 2008

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 24 hours in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for for edit-warring at Psychic[7][8][9][10][11]. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make constructive contributions. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first. Elonka 19:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Kwork2 (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Request reason:

Only three of the edits were the same edit. At least one was reverting what turned out to be a WP computer glitch (see section above this one). And, since the issue was resolved, the block seems a little late and pointless. Additionally, I did not get a 3RR warning. Not only that, I can't believe that you would do this to an editor (i.e. myself) with such a sweet disposition and with such sensitive and easily hurt feelings. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 19:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Decline reason:

You have been an editor long enough to be aware of what edit warring means, and you should also be aware that you may be blocked for edit warring even if you don't technically revert the same exact text more than three times. You are clearly edit warring over the article, and since you have shown no signs that you intend to stop this behavior, you will not be unblocked at this time. Should you give admins assurances that you agree to stop this behavior, and that you also understand that you will be blocked again if this behavior resumes, then someone may feel better about lifting this block. — Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

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If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

You've already been warned about 3RR in the past, on a different article.[12] As for the reverts, they don't have to be reverts to the same text, they just have to be reverts of what other editors are doing. As for your sweet disposition,[13] erm, I could send flowers if you'd like? Or would stickers with rainbows and unicorns be better? --Elonka 19:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

O shit! That means I may actually have to to some work now to keep busy. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 19:54, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think much of your POV, but this was a ridiculous block by an involved, very involved, admin. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure what you think my POV is. I admit I can carry tenaciousness to an extreme on occasion. Other editors who have that same quality, but find themselves on the opposite side of an editing disagreement, might not enjoy that characteristic. Personally I admire editors who try hard to do what they think is right, even when I do not agree with what they think is right. However, in this particular case, I doubt if you would have opposed any of my edits.

I do think it is a mistake for an administrator to get involved in that situation, which may seem a little acrimonious, but in which the editing process is moving forward. Seeing that several editors were working on the article at that time, and that none of the editors had complained to an administrator about edit warring (a term which did not really describe that situation); then for an administrator to get involved with blocks and warning of blocks, was really disruptive with unnecessary wiki-lawering. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

However, I complained to you about your edit warring, and you ignored it, removing my warnings from your talk page. Next time, in the same circumstances, I will complain to an administrator instead, since you don't heed friendly warnings, thinking yourself to be always in the right. Bob (QaBob) 12:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Your warning was on the Psychic article talk page [14], and I did not see it until after I was blocked. (You had the same number of reverts as me, or perhaps one less.) If complaining about me to administrators will keep your comments off my talk page, that will be a welcome development. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 13:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience

As a motion amending the above-named Arbitration case, the Arbitration committee has acknowledged long-term and persistent problems in the editing of articles related to pseudoscience. As a result, the Committee has enacted broad editing restrictions, described here and below.

• Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process.
• The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.
• Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.
• Discretionary sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate administrators' noticeboard (currently WP:AE), or the Committee.

These editing restrictions may be applied to any editor for cause, provided the editor has been previously informed of the case. This message is to so inform you. This message does not necessarily mean that your current editing has been deemed a problem; this is a template message crafted to make it easier to notify any user who has edited the topic of the existence of these sanctions.

Generally, the next step, if an administrator feels your conduct on pages in this topic area is disruptive, would be a warning, to be followed by the imposition of sanctions (although in cases of serious disruption, the warning may be omitted). Hopefully no such action will be necessary.

This notice is only effective if given by an administrator and logged here. --Elonka 19:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

This ruling says:

Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process.

Well, if not pseudoscience articles, what is the best type of article to edit for someone who can't quite manage to meet "expected standards of behavior"?Malcolm Schosha (talk) 20:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe try for something that is listed at WP:MISSING but isn't within the scope of Wikipedia:General sanctions. Which still wouldn't be 100% safe, but it stands a better chance of putting you deep enough in the stacks, that you can work more independently. Which would mean that you could just go ahead and write, without having to worry about negotiation and consensus-building every step of the way. Personally, I enjoy filling in gaps in the topic area of medieval history, as it's very rare that I run into a conflict when trying to expand articles about a 13th century priest or a medieval Egyptian capital. :) If you enjoy scientific topics, Wikipedia:List of missing journals is a good place to help out, and could definitely use the help! --Elonka 21:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Trigger happy administrators

In her explanation of why she blocked me, Elonka gave five diffs:

1. [15], was where I moved a sentence to the talk page for discussion [16], which is (as far as I know) universally considered acceptable editing practice. (I do not know what all the red is on that edit, because all I did was remove one sentence, which went to the talk page.)
2. [17]
3. [18]
4. [19] were, all three, reverts of one disputed edit with Bob (QaBob).
5. [20] was intended as a revert of an edit by ScienceApologist, who had just reverted the entire article to an earlier version (the result, it turned out, of a computer glitch he had), but which may have reverted QaBobAllah's revert of the same overwrite, and made just ahead of me. When I realized the edit was a mistake, I apologized to ScienceApologist for the negative comment. This edit had nothing to do with edit warring.

Because of Elonka's apparent misunderstanding of my edits, and the following typical WP administrative trigger happy application of administrative powers, I got blocked while QaBobAllah got a warning for doing the same thing. It is not that I expect fair treatment from administrators, but it would be pleasant if I did. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 15:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Fair question, let me try to explain: Per Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR/Administrator instructions, admins are advised not to block an editor for edit-warring, unless that editor has first been clearly warned about the WP:3RR policy. Such warnings are usually issued with the {{3rr}} template. When I looked at the history of QaBobAllah's talkpage,[21] I could not locate any record of QaBobAllah (talk · contribs) receiving a 3RR warning, so I went ahead and issued one.[22] If he would have continued edit-warring after that, he probably would have been blocked. However, he wisely chose to stop voluntarily, so no block was necessary. If for some reason in the future he resumes edit-warring, he can be blocked without warning, since there will be proof on his talkpage that at least one good faith effort was already made to educate him about the policy. As for your own actions, the best way to avoid further blocks, is to only use the "revert" button when dealing with vandalism. Using revert on an established editor accomplishes little except to escalate a dispute. Some editors follow a self-imposed "1RR" rule, meaning that they will only revert once, and then take things to the talkpage if there is further disagreement. The simple fact of the matter is that revert wars are completely ineffective as a way of changing an article. Editor A reverts, Editor B reverts A, A reverts B, back and forth, but it accomplishes nothing except to disrupt the article, and to increase blood pressure and stomach acid. See WP:MASTODON. Instead, the most effective way to implement a change is either to edit the article to try and find a compromise which both editors can live with, or to discuss the matter on the talkpage: Build consensus, request comments from other editors, start a thread at a dispute resolution noticeboard, or possibly request mediation. There are many ways to deal with disputes on Wikipedia, but revert-warring is pretty much at the bottom of the list. --Elonka 18:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, the problem with your reply (as I see it) is that

1. You did not respond to my point that much of what you used as a basis for blocking me was not really a basis for blocking me.
2. What you did write is a combination of vague generalities, wiki-lawering, and platitudes about how Wikipedia editors are supposed to act which has no connection to how they actually do act.

My own general views on editorial conflicts is that there is nothing wrong with some interpersonal conflict; and since it is part of human nature, WP efforts to suppress it rather are unnecessary (not to mention futile) if there is evidence of editorial progress, and if it has not become mean spirited. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 22:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you to a point. There are a few disputes that I keep an eye on, where editors get into a bit of a tussle, but I tend to stay out of it. Because in between the pushing and shoving, the article seems to be making slow progress, and neither of the editors involved seems to be overly concerned with the tone of the discussion, and no one else on the project seems to care enough about the topic to have an opinion. Which doesn't mean that I go completely hands-off... There are still various markers I watch for, at which point I'll step in as an administrator. One is when the dispute seems to be escalating outside of a small contained area, and overflowing to other articles or editors. Another would be if I see indications that some outside editors are reluctant to step in, because of the heat on the talkpage. Another is if an article is undergoing so many back and forth reverts, that it's getting difficult to tell where the "stable" version is, and editors are approaching 3RR. The last criterion, is what was happening at the Psychic article. Multiple editors either passed 3RR, or were teetering on the edge. I could have opted to just protect the article so that no one could edit at all, and indeed, I think that many administrators looking at that situation would have opted for page protection. I, however, dislike protecting articles except as an absolute last resort. Instead, I prefer to identify the editors that are using "revert" as an editing tool, and I tell them to cut it out. As for your point about how Wikipedia editors are supposed to act, not having any connection to how they do act, well, I'm not going to argue that that happens sometimes. This is a big project, with thousands of articles flowing in every day, and disputes are inevitable. However just because sometimes editors ignore policies, does not mean that the policies are okay to ignore. --Elonka 16:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I just wandered in and made some changes to the article that I think were logical....and got into (what seemed to me) a small dispute. Truthfully, I did not notice until later just how contentious editing this article has been. Five archived files for the talk page in less than a year says a lot. That is an indicator that I usually look at before getting involved with editing. Considering that the article is rather low priority for me, and knowing that that it is so easy to get stung by worried administrators, you are not likely to see much of me there in the future. So administrative actions can be a reason for editors staying away too. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

References

I made a revert of your edits here. The reason I did so is that the "ref name" allows one to refer to the same article in several places. Please see WP:CITET for more information. It makes for a cleaner article when the same ref is used multiple times with the ref name code. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 17:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I put in what seemed a better source, because it was directly from the Gallup site. If I was wrong about that, then it should be removed. In any case, I have decided that the Psychic article is not worth the trouble involved in editing it, and I think I would rather put my time and effort into articles on subjects that actually interest me. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 22:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Anti-Zionism

You are in violation of the three-revert rule. Please self-revert now, or you will be reported. CJCurrie (talk) 02:37, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Those were edits, not reverts. I changed a disputed sentence and tried to improve it. It was you who are engaged in edit warring. Please stop. (If you think you have a basis for your 3RR accusation, report it here [23].) Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I have now.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

October 2008

I have blocked you for 48 hours for edit warring on the Anti-Zionism article. Despite believing that you are "editing" and not edit warring, you should have worked out the dispute on the talk page rather than constantly rewriting. Please do not think that you haven't violated 3RR, because you have. If you wish to contest this block, please use the {{unblock|Your reason here}} template. Scarian^{Call me Pat!} 12:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Please also see WP:GAME. "Editing" like that, as you put it, is still considered reverting. Thanks. Scarian^{Call me Pat!} 12:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Considering our past history it seems more that a little problematic that you have blocked me. But I have no doubt that you are sure that your are doing the right thing; and I am, likewise, sure that I have done the right thing. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 12:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

By the way, Scarian, I feel cheated that I did not get the usual block template with this block. It looks more decorative on the page. Also I value them as ethical equivalents to a Purple Heart. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 12:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Admins don't always have to use the block template, but sure, I shall leave one. I left the above message indicating that you can request unblock using the unblock template. It's the unblock template that places this user talk page into a category which is then checked by other admins. But, sure, I shall honour your request. About "our past", I vaguely remember what went on, but, seeing as there were no problems between us (you and I), per se, I can honestly say that I bare no ill feelings towards you whatsoever. Scarian^{Call me Pat!} 14:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 48 hours in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for violating the three-revert rule at Anti-Zionism. Please be more careful to discuss controversial changes or seek dispute resolution rather than engaging in an edit war. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below. Scarian^{Call me Pat!} 14:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

If Scarian had taken a look at some of the discussion that occurred concerning the disputed sentence, such as this, from Jayjg, [24] he might understood that the editing situation was different than he assumed.

Additionally, there is a conflict of interest problem in his block. Scarion states on his user page: I am a far-left wing liberal who supports socialism and communist values[25]. Considering that the dispute involved the Anti-Zionism article, anti-Zionism being the standard leftist code word for their version of antisemitism, there is a perception of conflict of interest in his blocking me from editing the article; particularly so since his action left editors more favorable to his (perceived) POV to continue with their editing of the article. I am not saying that another administrator would have acted differently, but I do think Scarion was certainly the wrong administrator to have acted in this dispute. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 15:07, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it shouldn't matter. I never paid any attention to the article whatsoever (except to the check the diffs, of course). Your argument is subjective. It's strange that you think it plays any part in this, are you self-admitting that your edits were biased to one side? What would a right-winger admin have done? Let you go scott-free? Actually, I don't really understand your argument at all. I leave my POV at the door and I have never edited any politically charged article (except removing vandalism, of course) and I have never taken any administrative action against anyone because of a politically charged article. If you wish to be unblocked, please use the unblock template above, otherwise please could you stop leaving messages here. Thank you. Scarian^{Call me Pat!} 15:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The perception is bad. I do not claim that an administrator with different views would have acted differently, I said that the perception of neutrality is lacking. It is not an issue of left politics, but the simple fact that the political left has shifted to an Anti-Zionist stance. (I would be surprised to find that, in other respects, your political views are different -- or more to the left -- than my own.) This was not intended as a personal criticism of your good intentions. Meaning well is one thing, insensitivity to the issue involved is another. I am sorry if this has hurt your feelings, because that is certainly not my intention.

I will make an unblock request soon. As far as I know I have a right to use this page, which is for now my only means of communicating on this web site. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 16:17, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, now that I have tried, I can't get the unblock template to work. With my lack of computer know-how it would probably be better if I was not editing WP anyhow. I suppose that is the only permanent solution to my many annoyances with WP. Non fare pasta. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 17:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

COI?

I just noticed this, discussing me, on Scarian's talk page [26], the section titled Hi and thanks.

This friendly exchange with the user who filed the 3RR against me, leaves a lot to be desired, and serves to increase concern of WP:COI in his decision to block, as does his apparent satisfaction with having helped out Peter cohen. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 22:05, 28 October 2008 (UTC)