User talk:Wikidemon

xrxty

Check the contributions list of Special:Contributions/72.192.216.42

"is based loosely on" vs "is loosely based on"

It's the match of the century!

In this corner, weighing in at 4 words: "is based loosely on" . (cheers, cheers, cheers)

In the opposite corner, the challenger, weighing in at 4 words: "is loosely based on" . (cheers, cheers, cheers)

I googled the two phrases and got: 91,400 hits for "is based loosely on"; and 541,000 hits for "is loosely based on" .

It looks like the challenger wins by decision, but it wouldn't surprise me if the less popular version is more grammatically correct. I don't know what the relevant grammar rule is. Also, it may be better reading to use the more popular version. My preference is "is loosely based on". Forgive me if this might sound silly to discuss such a small issue, but I'm curious. Regards, --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know either is correct. With "is loosely based", the adverb "loosely" modifies the adjective "based", meaning that is a specific kind of basing. With "is based loosely" the adverb modifies the word "is", meaning that it is normal basing, but its status of being based is a loose one.Wikidemon (talk) 22:16, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Abbarocks et al

has a 99% chance of being a sock -- see [1]. I had a user before use the same m.o. named User:Brendan19 though not quite as blatant <g>. At the time I suspected wither the late User:Writegeist or User:Mattnad was also involved as they appeared (sometimes mysteriously) in the same discussions with the same vocabulary. As a wizop for many years, finding "alternate personas" was almost a sport. Mattnad appeared in Business Plot with this [2] having been initially logged in as 98.331.28.245 (indicating he logs on and off at about that time). Brendan19 five minutes prior made a similar type of post at Union Banking Corporation [3] Neither had been on either of those pages previously, hence the concern that the two are related. Abbarocks has been the main person reverting on Union Banking, while Ikip is the one on Business Plot. I suspect you are well familiar with Ikip at this point. Thanks! Collect (talk) 03:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, gosh. I just hadn't been paying attention. Still, if you get into arguments with socks on talk pages they win. Best to collect evidence quietly until you have enough to convince someone to do a CU or a block. Good luck. Wikidemon (talk) 03:35, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Barack Obama/weight

Hey, what exactly does this measure? Grsz¹¹ 03:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

This was from autumn 2008, when various difficult editors, were advocating for inclusion of disparaging material about Obama. Specifically they wanted to add or expand treatment of the matters of Bill Ayers (the supposed "unrepentant terrorirst"), Reverend Wright, and Tony Rezko. Because the issues came up every few days, often by repeated attempts by the same editors (later found out for the most part to be sockpuppets) to introduce the material, I wanted to create a stable page rather than trying to re-argue the issue every time. The objective here was to show the amount of coverage given in this article, and in another comprehensive account or two, to the various people and events in Obama's life. In an XXX word account of Obama's life, YYY sentences were given to a job he had for ZZZ years, AAA sentence were given to a relative, and so on. That would help keep the matter of a distant political ally, a pastor, and a political affiliate, in perspective. Wikidemon (talk) 08:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

And, rewritten

Hi. At WT:NOR, I responded to your last message there in the section And, written. I'm not sure if you saw it. Could you say over there whether or not it is OK with you to just replace the first sentence for now, as I suggested? Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:39, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/MZMcBride

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/MZMcBride/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/MZMcBride/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Tiptoety ^talk 02:40, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Them Terribles

A tag has been placed on Them Terribles requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a band or musician, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for musical topics.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 08:11, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

March 2009

Please do not remove speedy deletion notices from pages you have created yourself. Please use the {{hangon}} template on the page instead if you disagree with the deletion. Thank you. ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 08:17, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

• Please stop adding the speedy tag to the article, and be more careful next time. Check out my edit history - I'm not a novice editor. The article has an inuse tag and I'm working on it.Wikidemon (talk) 08:20, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits.
The next time you remove a speedy deletion notice from a page you have created yourself, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 08:38, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Given that you're not a novice editor, I don't need to give you so many warnings. Stop removing the speedy-tag. The instructions clearly say not to. If you disagree with it, follow process. But if you remove it again, you will be blocked. ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 08:38, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Why the heck would you want to waste your time and mine, and disrupt the encyclopedia, by repeatedly nominating an article undergoing active editing by an experienced editor on a notable subject for deletion, even after the editor has asked you to stop. I'm working on it. I don't write speediable articles. Because of the ridiculous so-called "last warning" I must take this matter to WP:AN/I - an even more pointless waste of time. In the meanwhile you might want to review some pages like WP:IAR, WP:AGF, WP:TEND, and WP:DTTR. Wikidemon (talk) 08:42, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, please let me know when you list the issue on ANI, with the {{ANI-notice}} template on my talkpage - thanks. ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 08:47, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I've just done it. I'll leave a courtesy notice after I finish a minor clean-up of my post. Wikidemon (talk) 09:00, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

You seem to have found the discussion so I will refrain.Wikidemon (talk) 09:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Shiny things and related...

		The Template Barnstar
		For introducing a new template, {{increation}}, which shall help to get less new articles deleted before they are finsihed. --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord2 23:14, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Great work. Now just make sure it will be linked to and from Wikipedia:How to create a Wikipedia article and other more frequently visited pages (wherever it fits and editors will look for when searching for an answer). Just try to make it easy to find incl. the welcome templates).  ;) . Again, great work and you did spend your time wisely.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:55, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

...and besides that, you did get what I consider "the nicest closing of an ANI thread" I'm aware of: "tea and sympathy for Wikidemon". With other words, you went from "getting a hard time" to "getting the best" in one day. How much better can it get? :) --The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:09, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Article probation

I'm not sure I've actually seen it in action before. I'm impressed. Guettarda (talk) 02:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Kfedup (talk · contribs)Another article probation notice needed? Guettarda (talk) 03:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Yup....and when we're done, perhaps a WP:CHECKUSER on some of these editors. Wikidemon (talk) 03:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

• Whoops. Looks like we were working the same case at User talk:Neophytesoftware#Article probation notice, and I happened to block during the time you were giving him a final warning. Do you want to rescind, or shall I? I smell sock accounts nevertheless... seicer | talk | contribs 03:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Rescind the warning? The block is likely the way to go - the warnings and reversions only egged him on to be more tendentious. I doubt my warning would stop him, particularly given the climate established by the editorialist inciting the fringe loyalists to view the article as a dictatorship of the cabal. Wikidemon (talk) 03:16, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Is there any way to remove my user name from the notification list? I was just trying to be helpful. SMP0328. (talk) 03:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Don't take it personally - we're all on the notification list... I'll make a comment on your page to that effect. It's no stigma, and being on the notification list does not make you any more likely to get blocked for good faith editing. Article probation has generally been used as a tool to come down in real time on high-intensity disruption. Wikidemon (talk) 03:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. SMP0328. (talk) 03:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Please let me know if what I wrote is okay - I can nice it up some more if that helps. If it were a regular warning I might strike or remove it, but we have no precedent for un-notifying people about article probation. It's just a notice, it means you're aware. Wikidemon (talk) 03:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Sleeping

Man I go to sleep and miss all the fun! I should stop sleeping and maybe then I'd be able to see the weirdness start! Brothejr (talk) 11:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

One needs to do a sanity / reality check. We went from a quiet, stable article to complete mayhem, socks, and a couple dozen or more editors singing the same tune, proposing the old nonconsensus edits, crying censorship, etc., all in one day. One tries to explain this in simple terms but then that's too much to be a mere coincidence. If the New York Times had published an expose on Wikipedia I doubt it would have influenced editing this much...Wikidemon (talk) 11:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I look at it as an attack by the far right wingers who are still sore over losing the election and are pissed that WP does not cover all the conspiracies like Conservapedia does. Basically in their minds, if it does not tilt toward the right and their views, then it is inherently biased. One thing that a Republican said (I forgot who) a couple weeks ago was that this country is inherently a center-right country and I could not stop laughing at that. The conservatives truly think that their way is the majority! That is what we are seeing here now. I'm expecting this to take a couple days to sort itself out. Brothejr (talk) 11:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I only wish that Wright line that had been added stopped most of the weirdness, but I don't think even one line would stop them. Brothejr (talk) 17:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This looks to be a replay of last fall - scores of meatpuppets and possibly sockpuppets making the same claim again and again while edit warring, crying censorship, insulting editors, calling the article a whitewash, etc. It may very well be the same people. The sudden influx tells me that someone probably put them up to it - behind the scenes emails, newsletters, etc. This camp has demonstrated before in the field of Arab/Israel disputes that they're willing to game Wikipedia - they're in the business of no rules espionage and sabotage in the world of journalism, so when they set their sights here it's no surprise. Plus they've convinced a number of Wikipedia's regular editors to go south as well.Wikidemon (talk) 17:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

True, I did notice a couple editors who normally would not care seem to be speaking up for the weirdness. Brothejr (talk) 18:03, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

3rr warning

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. NDM (talk) 11:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Looks tit-for-tat retaliation from a misguided user who wants to use a talk page on article probation for a soapbox. Wikidemon (talk) 12:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Please stop harassing me

I've asked you numerous times not to post on my talk page. Please respect my request. If you need to call my attention to a discussion on an article talk page that would be fine. Thanks. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not harassing you. Because of your request, and the general vituperation you have directed at me for several months, I have generally disengaged from any involvement with you on the project. You have not always done the same. I have been patient, but that does not give you a free ticket for gross incivility and disruption to the encyclopedia, as you have been doing lately on the subject of Obama. If you disrupt an article I am working on and your talk page the appropriate place, that's how it is. If you don't like it, a better start would be cleaning up your act than complaining to me about it.Wikidemon (talk) 18:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

My focus is on article building and improvement, so I have no interest in arguing with POV warriors like you. I think the damage you do to the encyclopedia speaks for itself. Your comments on my page have nothing to do with article improvement and were pure harassment. Please don't post on my talk page unless it's to call my attention to a discussion of article content on an article talk page. Thank you. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:13, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Nope. That one is transparent, and you get a warning for that one.Wikidemon (talk) 18:16, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikidemon, you POV warrior you. Lol. Grsz¹¹ 18:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Please stop harassing me Wikidemon. I've asked you numerous times not to post on my talk page. Your posts don't haven anything to do with improving the encyclopedia and are harassment. Leave me alone. Thanks.ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll refer to my initial response, and this picture of Doctor Evil.[4] Wikidemon (talk) 18:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

OMG, not the picture of Dr Evil!!!  :) Brothejr (talk) 18:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Might as well just ignore him Wikidemon. You and I both know that crowd can't handle being called out on their bullshit. Grsz¹¹ 18:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Ignoring is the best response, but it only goes so far. Eventually, it may be necessary to put together an RfC/U in order to make a case for a block or ban. --Ronz (talk) 18:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Just a note

I happened to read this and just thought I'd mention that this is the same editor who simply insisted the project's featured articles were incredibly flawed and called them "crap" and threw a huge fit because editors took exception to her insistence that the term "icon" should appear in the lead to Tina Turner without any supporting documentation and that "the whole article supports it." She didn't seem to get the concept that such an unsupported statement was POV and seemed really insistent on concentrating on Turner's legs vs. her comeback from nothing and a life of abuse to being a huge star. She also challenged the use of the term "businessman" in Michael Jackson because just buying a song portfolio (Northern Songs) and managing it for years didn't make him a businessman. Despite the efforts of editors to demonstrate that his having bought the portfolio was a smart business decision and that Jackson had parlayed it into his main source of income, she persisted, then finally retreated to her area of comfort before apparently entering the world of politics. Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:13, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Re: your note

Hey, thanks for the note. I agree completely with your view - the Obama article is nicely neutral, includes links to the daughter articles that Klein conveniently forgot to look at, and so forth. I did look over the article for links to the contentious stuff, and didn't see it at the time I checked, that's about the only complaint I could possibly have had about it at the time. I'm just getting annoyed by the frothing, at this point. Hopefully it dies down shortly and we can go back to dealing with the encyclopedia, instead of the influx of Freepers and dittoheads. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Investigation

Hello, I have added more information to your investigation begun here [5] TharsHammar (talk) 23:18, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

You might also be interested in reading the full letter from Klein about Jerusalem21, [6] TharsHammar (talk) 23:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

CSPI

Thanks! Neutrality^talk 02:32, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:SOAP

Article talk pages are for discussion of article issues such as content and sources. Also, thank you for reverting my resoration of a post on the talk page. I had not realized the editor removing it was the editor who posted it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 08:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Please stop trolling. I was responding to an earnest poster's sincere question there. You really need to tone it down and try to conform your behavior to collaborative, civil editing.Wikidemon (talk) 08:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

It's troubling that you make yet another personal attack against me saying I'm trolling. This comment [7] that you reverted back onto the talk page does not have anything to do with article content or citations and violates WP:SOAP. There is a reminder at the top of the article talk page that says "This is not a forum for general discussion of Barack Obama. Any such messages will be deleted. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article." I hope you will remain civil and focused on article improvements in the future. It would also be good if you showed fairness in reverting and warning all editors who make personal attacks and inappropriate comments and not just those whose statements you disagree with. You commented soon after a statement was made about "batshit insane fringetards (and the poor sheep that follow them)," and I hope you're aware that this statment violates our civility guidelines and is grossly inappropriate. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:03, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I stand by what I said. There was a reason I added that commentary, because I was engaging an editor who made a strong point a number of people disagreed with. I don't think it's worth engaging you over this subject, however.Wikidemon (talk) 18:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Huff Po article

Dunno if you saw this, but it made me laugh. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

San Francisco Police Officers Association

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 13:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Please review WP:BLP and WP:DTTR - note that the editor who just templated me is the one edit warring across five editors to include a poorly sourced accusation of murder against a living person, after being cautioned not to do so.Wikidemon (talk) 13:42, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

• Poorly sourced - For more information, please see;

San Francisco Chronicle - S.F. police union accuses Ayers in 1970 bombing

The Politico - Group puts Ayers back in spotlight

Fox News - Report: Police Union Accuses Ayers in Deadly 1970 San Francisco Bombing

WorldNetDaily - Cold case: Will Ayers be brought to justice?

Fox Business - San Francisco Police Officers' Association Supports Effort to Bring Charges in 1970 Bombing Case

FrontPage Magazine - A Murder Revisited

KGO-TV - Union accuses Ayers of 1970 bombing

The San Francisco Examiner - Police union targets ’60s radical

Chicago Tribune - San Francisco cops target Bill Ayers

Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 13:53, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Please don't robo-cut-and-paste pointless stuff to my talk page. The problem is your edit warring of BLP-violating material into multiple articles simultaneously. If you want to make a case that this material should be in more than the one article where it makes the most sense, you're welcome to use the talk pages to make your proposal - currently the BLP noticeboard where this got consolidated. Wikidemon (talk) 14:07, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the warning!

I was not aware that "Talk:Barack Obama, is on article probation." 15:40, 15 March 2009 (hist) (diff) Talk:Barack Obama ‎ (→Bad faith all around). Although I should have. I have ready the article probation information and see I am to late to help. I wish all of you the best and only hope that everyone remembers that we all pay for what we do and don't do in due time. Everything is always done one group at a time. And it will be your time some day. That is why I protect even what I sometimes do not agree with, because they have rights too. And once you take them from one group it is easier to take them from others. Gama1961 (talk) 16:48, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea what that's intended to mean, nor do the repeated comments on the Barack Obama talk page make much sense. This is an encyclopedia, not a place to get into a debate about free speech. Talk pages are for constructive discussion about improving the article in question. You are not supposed to use the talk page of an article as a place to vent about what's wrong with Wikipedia or the editors on it. Maybe brush up on Godwin's Law too? It's odd that someone would create a new account and use it so far only to vent on the Barack Obama page about censorship.Wikidemon (talk) 16:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

It is not "odd that someone would create a new account and use it so far only to vent on the Barack Obama page about censorship". It is the first place I noticed your censorship. And it is the one thing I can not let go by unnoticed. Plus, it was brought to me by a concered adult becasue I often send my students there. But my classed and I will be looking for it from now on. And the fact the you find it odd, speaks volumes. Gama1961 (talk) 17:42, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

"Odd indeed" - you confirmed my suspicions. So you have never edited Wikipedia before, or have you edited before from a different account? Assuming you are indeed a teacher, new to the encyclopedia, and sincere in your intent to fight censorship, there are some things you need to understand first. Please review the welcome message and read the pages on the links for advice on how to be a constructive editor. You should also take a look at WP:NPA, WP:AGF, WP:NPOV, WP:TALK, WP:POINT, and WP:SOAP regarding your edits. Please be humble when approaching new projects that you do not yet understand, and don't come here with an agenda. Note that it is against Wikipedia policies to edit the encyclopedia as a class project. Also, if you are teaching students you should learn a bit more about what censorship is before throwing around the term loosely. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a public forum, and editing articles invariably involves a choice of which version will be approved. That is not censorship, that is editing. If you just happen to be an opponent of Obama who wants the article to be more negative about him, I hope you are being fair and allowing your pupils to make up their own minds. If you came here due to the fake scandal initiated by that right wing agitator Aaron Klein you ought to pay some heed to what actually happened.Wikidemon (talk) 17:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

BLPN discussion/ANI

IMO Noroton is just (again) trying to provoke you to make "mistakes" s/he did and (in part) led to his/her topic ban. Don't fall for it and don't overreact. You should and do know better.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 22:25, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I haven't made any mistakes. Is Noroton topic banned? I think the admins gave him a 3 week block as a more effective alternative. Wikidemon (talk) 22:41, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Re. mistakes.. No, not really but even if reasonable to collapse his edits (with his history in mind) I wouldn't have done it since (as you can see by now) he reversed it.

"Is Noroton topic banned?". You know, I'm not sure now that you're asking. Could be that he evaded it by "resigning" but I'm positive about that restrictions were "applied" to him either by force or for him to decide to do so freely. So I guess you're right with a "more effective alternative" which at the end comes down to the same as a topic ban, only that he's not in violation of it therefore.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:15, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

That's fine - I'll revert his re-insertion of the personal attacks. He has no leg to stand on with that. Wikidemon (talk) 23:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

With or w/o a leg or two [artificial legs I'm thinking w/o offense to anyone], I wish and hope editors/admins that where involved and remember the whole thing (from last year) would kick in (at ANI).--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:36, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. It will happen soon enough. Problem being, the new influx of novice POV editors, and likely the accompanying socks, could force a repeat of last fall unless people take a hard line on this nonsense. Wikidemon (talk) 23:38, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see POV editors (in general and from both "sides") as a problem since we can deal with them. I'm only discussed if they need socks. Very disgraceful. But anyway, I don't think last fall's repeating but if so, I'm out of here... :) --The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Weatherman article

Hi Wikidemon. I actually wouldn't include any mention of Obama in that article myself, but it should at least shouldn't be made into an attack on Palin and should be similar to the Ayres article. Anyways I have commented on the talk page as you suggested. Please feel free to delete this or respond here or continue on that article talk page. Tom 03:05, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Arbcom

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#User:Stevertigo's disruptive trolling and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the guide to arbitration and the Arbitration Committee's procedures may be of use.

Thanks,

Arb

Hey, for some reason I can edit any page but ArbCom, could you post this under my section:

As this case is suppose to be about Steve's behavior, yet he only provided alleged wrongdoings against him, i'll put out the same evidence that I offered William Connonlley last night: Opening pointy ANI threads without the slighest hint of attempting to resolve the situation ([8], [9], [10]); edit warring on a talk page; edit warring non-constructive comments back into DRV ([11], [12]); edit warring at ANI to keep his disruptive sections open ([13], [14], [15], [16])

Steve has been around long enough to know that what he is doing is disruptive and inappropriate. If he were a newbie he would be identified as an SPA and indef blocked already. This isn't an issue for Arbitration, as administrative action under the terms of article probation could solve this. Grsz¹¹ 18:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Note to Clerks - Please move Steve's reply above to his own section. Just another example: he knows better, but chooses to be disruptive anyways. Grsz¹¹ 18:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, Grsz¹¹ 18:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm having my own trouble at the moment - I get a "server error" much of the time I try to post there. But I'll give it a shot. Wikidemon (talk) 18:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

That's what I was getting, but it was limited to that page. Plus some computer issues on my end. Thanks though, I wanted to get that in there. Grsz¹¹ 18:51, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Ping

[17] Was that the document? The convo at the bottom. rootology (C)(T) 23:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk page notices

I have asked you repeatedly not to post on my talk page except to call my attention to a discussion on an article talk page. This was necessary because of your history of harassment. There is already an Arbcom case about your biased editing. I suggest you consider carefully the guidelines for editing and behavior on Wikipedia. Thanks. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

You have made various requests in connection with your talk page, and I have said that I would not post unnecessarily there. I have never agreed to avoid your page entirely, and when your edits or some other mater warrant attention on your talk page I will post there. The tone of your message, above, is unfounded, unreasonable, and unduly combative. This seems to relate to your long-term denigration of my behavior and edits as being somehow detrimental to the encyclopedia, and if I cannot dissuade you from thinking of me as some kind of Wikipedia boogeyman I would at least appreciate it if you would hold that opinion to yourself. I have never harassed you, nor is it reasonable to say that there is an arbitration case about my editing. More to the point, I posted a notice on your talk page regarding a disputed edit you made to the Barack Obama article, telling you I was about to restore the article to an earlier state, and inviting you to discuss the matter on the talk page. Your talk page is the appropriate place for such a notice, and I am sure that whatever the outcome of the arbitration case may be, something along those lines would be considered a reasonable way of going about handling a disagreement about article content. Wikidemon (talk) 18:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Please stop posting on my talk page. As noted above I have asked you repeatedly to use the article discussion pages. I'm not sure why you fail to respect good faith requests by other editors. The excuses you make for your biased editing and harassing comments just don't cut it. PLEASE STOP!!! ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I believe my earlier comment is self-explanatory, but to reiterate: I will post to your talk page when that is the appropriate place for a message that is important to pass along. I have refrained and will continue to refrain from posting unnecessarily there. The latest comments on your talk page are a case in point, stated neutrally and non-confrontationally, and entirely appropriate. Despite a temptation to do so I avoided characterizing what I think of your behavior, something I note you have not refrained from doing. I would ask you to extend me the same decorum - your comments above, as I note, are unduly confrontational. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 18:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Obama articles

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Obama articles/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Obama articles/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Mailer Diablo 18:18, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

One thing you might want to add to your evidence on the whole FAQ event. After Stevertigo modified the answer,[18] my reversion,[19] his re-adding,[20] then PhGustaf's reversion,[21] he immediately went to AN/I without any attempt to discuss.[22] It may also be of note that as soon as the 24 hours of a 3RR would be up, Stevertigo hopped in feet first on a separate edit war over the question[23][24] The later link includes a tit-for-tat personal attack via edit summaries between Sceptre and Stevertigo.--Bobblehead ^(rants) 05:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Please assume good faith

I undid your archiving of a discussion item at WP:IAR characterizing it as disruption (also because I wished to comment on it as well). JustGettingItRight (talk) 21:17, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The issue has nothing to do with good faith. Please see my comment in that discussion area. The matter is being discussed in arbitration, and it should remain closed on the policy page.Wikidemon (talk) 21:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I would agree if someone were editing the project page. The talk page is designed to solicit comments, no matter how out of the mainstream they are (see WP:TALK). When a proposal out of the mainstream is opposed by consensus, then the policy itself is validated. JustGettingItRight (talk) 22:18, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's a definition of trolling - trying to get a reaction out of people by proposing something that is not on the level one knows will provoke them. We're not obliged to comment on something just because an editor wants to chat. If he has a real proposal he's free to bring it up, but not by goading people. Wikidemon (talk) 22:22, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

WD, I'm always open to discussion, so lets carry it on here if you don't object. You may wish to consider removing the edit you made at an archived section [25] and perhaps moving it here also - but that's totally up to you, I'm not fussed either way. I personally don't ever add into an archive, seems to me that you either unarchive it to continue the discussion, respond below the archive, or just drop it. But whatever.

As to specifics, well first of all I had no idea that you would consider my comments to be an attack. I stand by my comments equally as you. The objective facts seem to me that I am quite capable of holding my own in wiki-converse, I generally resist all forms of baiting and provocation, StVert was making reasonable responses and in fact it was yourself and Sceptre who brought an argument from elsewhere. The manifestation was reversions (including reversions of my good-faith edits, which I don't vastly appreciate) and in your case a long screed about your perceived grievances and deficiencies in others. I'm sorry if you disagree, but that's what I see, having no flea performing in the current arb-circus.

This perhaps reflects one of the big gulfs in understanding between different wiki-editors. I see a straightforward commment that I made, you see an attack. I'm not right to say "oh grow up!" and neither are you right to cry "I have been wounded!" We just approach things differently, and we need to find middle ground. Preferably not a battleground. Nevertheless, if you perceive an attack in my comment, I will apologize that you see it that way, and I'd ask for clarification as to esactly what I said that was an attack.

I'll re-iterate though that it's not necessary for you to pre-manage disruption. There are many other editors with eyeballs, thoughts and access to edit and undo buttons. It's important that you confine your disputes, else we risk chaos. I'd also ask you to trust my judgement. Regards! Franamax (talk) 00:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I believe my statements and actions on the IAR talk page were correct. Please reread what you said on that page, and here on this page. You take sides, not only against me but to criticize me for my attempt to explain the situation, tell me I am "getting worked up here", and tell me I shouldn't try to protect you from yourself or bring trouble from elsewhere (which has nothing to do with the issue). I responded because you chastised me just before the page was archived and it was a meta-comment about me, not about the proposal. Quelling disruption is indeed an important thing to do. Disruptive proposals are routinely shut down across the encyclopedia, and when an editor forum shops or attempts to expand disruption, they get shut down elsewhere. Here Stevertigo made an unserious proposal to do away with one of Wikipedia's core policies - that is about on the level of nominating a featured article for deletion. Stevertigo did not come out of the blue to make that proposal, as I explained. He was on a roll of provocation across a number of pages that started on the Obama page and landed in arbitration. It was not a fair proposal. Some of his various other actions on other pages were also summarily reversed - an article he was promoting was speedied, for instance. There has been a constant cloud of disruption lately on, and emanating from, the Obama articles and it's all we can do to keep things atable. Wikidemon (talk) 00:37, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, let me try to take these in order. I try very hard to not take sides, I try to see both sides and got a "consummate mediator" tag once, so I'm not too worried. (Note that I could claim a personal attack there :) The "getting worked up" bit relates to the sheer length of your post, which generally indicates an emotional rather than rational response. I did not mean to chastise you personally, although perhaps I used the "royal you" to refer yourself and Sceptre, two parties deeply involved in a wiki-squabble with the OP. My "meta-comment" was indeed about the responses to the proposal which I thought disproportionate. Quelling disruption is certainly important, but I can't help but observe the frequent contributors to WT:IAR and ya know - I haven't seen you there much. OTOH, check the history, I do believe that I have a little more stature on deciding what constitutes disruption on that page. Maybe you could ask Chillum or Father Goose about that - we've all spent lots of time on the issue. So yeah, be WP:BOLD in your edits, but rest assured that between us we've got it all handled. We don't all agree but we manage the situation, again don't bring your "management" of disruption to places where you aren't even checking to see who the existing managers are. Like I said, thanks for the input - other people than yourself are equally capable of closing discussion, editors not involved in current disputes.

Did I miss anything? As far as StVert and the ArbCase - don't care. Please take it up there. Not taking sides. I'll offer reasonable discussion to both sides. Just please don't extend disputes beyond the areas where they started. StVert caused no disruption in the WT:IAR post, beyond provoking reactions from involved parties. No-one else was harmed at all and StVert acted reasonably. The storm came from elsewhere. You take offense when I suggest you're getting worked up, but I'll still suggest that you calm down. Regards. Franamax (talk) 01:21, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

And possibly to clarify: Wikidemon, just because I disagree with you at a particular page at a particular time, doesn't mean that I disagree with everything you say, or think you're wrong on the underlying issue or feel compelled to attack you as a person. It just means I disagree with your particular expression of ideas. Odds are that I will be agreeing with you somewhere else within a matter of hours. Unless you're a troll, which eviodnce I've never seen and do not believe exists. We're just two editors with strong ideas. Again, apologies if you perceived any personal attack. Franamax (talk) 01:28, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

The length is an attempt to explain a fairly involved situation in detail, aware that we are in an arbitration case and that any action or statement can and will be subject to scrutiny and accusations. I have not been deeply involved in a wiki-squabble with Stevertigo, no more than any of the other few dozen disruptive accounts on the Obama pages this year, although he has sought made it so. On my part it is a matter of responding to simple disruption, something we do several times per day in the Obama articles. When trouble spills out to other pages, editors patrolling Obama-related pages sometimes go there to clean up. Nothing wrong with that. Dealing with disruption as if it were normal consensus editing, or as if each page were its own island, is impractical. Stevertigo created a rapid-fire series of pointy disruptive edits to a number of articles, and viewed in context his quasi-suggestion to do away with IAR policy looked like and probably was trolling. It now looks like he may have been deliberately stirring up trouble so that he could make an issue of it. Simple reversion of pointless disruptive edits is usually effective as a first line of response in dealing with this, as is closing meaningless discussions. Whatever the situation, it is subject to resolution in the arbitration case. If you are indeed skilled at mediation, surely you know that if a party is truly worked up telling them to calm down does not help things, and if they are not upset, telling them that they are being irrational because they are upset may be a self-fulfilling prophesy. Wikidemon (talk) 01:40, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Teleprompter

The only problem with this is that I had already requested temporary full page protection for this article, so it is conceivable that this version will get protected. I appreciate the 3RR heads-up though - my previous edits were "yesterday", but still within a 24hr span. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Well, sometimes it's the wrong version. As goofy as the edit is, it just makes Wikipedia look sophomoric... it is not a great BLP harm. Wikidemon (talk) 16:00, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

What is your thoughts on this user. Think its a sock puppet? TharsHammar (talk) 17:09, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

This[26] was obviously not the person's first ever edit to the encyclopedia. Speaking of which, you (TharsHammer) seem like you've had experience before your account creation date. What gives there? Wikidemon(talk) 17:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Time for a little detective work. I don't think any of the usual suspects are that good at English or Wikipedia article layout. Wikidemon (talk) 17:21, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I had about a hundred edits on my IP address before signing up. I found out about geolocate and whois and I realized I didn't want people being able to trace me. TharsHammar (talk) 17:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough...just wanting to be careful. Wikidemon (talk) 17:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

It is pretty clear that Dermus is around only to create articles about Obama's teleprompter use. TharsHammar (talk) 17:34, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, WP:SPA is not as bad as being a full-blown WP:SOCK. If the person who created it is a longstanding editor who wants to hide behind a second identity to create POV articles, and especially if that person is using both accounts to try to participate in AfD and other discussions, or edit wars, that's a very serious behavioral problem that can end up causing a lot of trouble. Gotta say, I agree with the sock on this one though.[27] TOTUS, in all capital letters, is obviously a different thing than Totus in lowercase. For example, ACORN versus the woefully inadequate Acorn. Wikidemon (talk) 17:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I checked, and if you type in Totus it goes to the same redirect. I don't think the search feature distinguishes by capitalization. TharsHammar (talk) 17:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Overlawyered

It meets WP:WEB, and shouldn't be a redirect. See WP:COIN#Overlawyered for RS. THF (talk) 20:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer...I've created the beginning of an article, but it still needs some work. That should hold it for now, though. Wikidemon (talk) 20:59, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

NOR

Re: this edit: thank you. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:48, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I was confused - I thought Bob had added your version with a "slight modification", not his version - that's why I reverted SlimVirgin. I thought Bob had finally come around and we all agreed, and that SlimVirgin had misunderstood the discussion. I was confused that SlimVirgin would have reverted summarily. Now that I see what happened, I understand. I'm fine with either version... I hope I haven't made a mess. I wasn't trying to start any trouble. Wikidemon (talk) 02:51, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

thanks

Thanks for responding in the RfA (the Teleprompter one). I'm never sure what constitutes a "new" user ... lol. I haven't been here that long, but I didn't just sign up yesterday either. Looking back, I'm thinking it may have been directed to another user who seems to be a SPA, and newly created account just a few !votes up from me. I do appreciate you taking the time to reply though - thanks. ;) — Ched ~ ^(yes?)/_© 10:18, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Good, better, best

You removed the sentence, "ACORN encourages government-based housing trusts rather than a market-oriented approach to expand public housing.", and the corresponding citation. I also considered removing it, but then I read in that source that Clinton did propose just such a trust fund, and an ACORN spokesperson indicated they were pleased with it (even though it didn't go far enough). So I left the sentence in, figuring I would get around to wording it more accurately. I think I much prefer your solution, per your edit summary. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:08, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

RFC regarding WP:TERRORIST

Hi: You're probably watching the WT:WTA talk page, but if not, I wanted to let you know I've set up an RFC to get some outside discussion there, and to encourage slightly more formal statements than our more freewheeling discussion thus far. Ray^Talk 17:53, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

BLPN post

Right after you posted to my query on the BLPN, I slightly reworded my original post to clarify what I was asking. I don't think it will affect your statement, but I wanted to let you know about the change. Horologium (talk) 20:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Drudge

Hi Wikidemon! I see you censored my discussion entry within minutes of posting. I just wanted to drop you a line and say keep up the good fight of censoring dissent. I know some people say dishonest editing make for a dishonest institution, but what do they know? At any rate, hopefully we can collaborate in the future to suppress detractors' influence on our MOB TRUTH. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chipdouglas (talk • contribs) 17:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

(2): I actually agree, and I see you referred me to "What Wikipedia Is Not." It is ironic, however, that I am being chided for not adhering to Wikipedia virtues on articles that even more egregiously fail to adhere to editing criteria ("Wikipedia Is Not" for "advocacy" or "opinion pieces."). This is not on you, as review suggests you restrain your views more than the average Wikipedian editor, but hopefully you can appreciate the absurdity of enforcing pedantry while ignoring serious offenses and contradictions. It is like making a citizen's arrest for stepping over the threshold of private property while that property is looted and burned by others. Just out of personal curiosity, what is your POV on the inclusion of "conservative" for Drudge even while such titles are omitted for the aforementioned openly liberal pundits? Chipdouglas (talk) 18:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I have mentioned on the article talk page that it is not good for the first sentence of the lead because that is used to identify the subject - that suggests that conservatism is a defining characteristic of the Drudge Report, which is not really right per the sources. However, it is not useful and against the rules to use talk pages to accuse editors of ganging up, censorship, etc. You will find nobody listens to those arguments, and they do not build an encyclopedia. Wikidemon (talk) 20:22, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

ANI

I have filed a complaint against you for removing other editors comments and for WP:BITE [28] CENSEI (talk) 02:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

WD, I think CENSEI has a crush on you. He sure likes following you around here. Grsz¹¹ 03:13, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

So does ChildofMidnight, another editor involved in the mess. Wikidemon (talk) 03:14, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh well, it's amazing he's even still around. Probably just best to ignore everything he does and pretend he doesn't exist. Grsz¹¹ 03:18, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Disengage from CENSEI

Please stop taunting and pushing buttons of User:CENSEI. Your contributions (and his) were disruptive and both of you are facing disruption blocks if this continues. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:38, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Please retract that warning. I am a productive, good faith editor acting in a role to avoid disruption and keep the peace here. I have not taunted CENSEI or pushed any buttons. When a problem editor like CENSEI disrupts things, I help out. My actions have not been disruptive in the slightest, are attempts - which would have been successful ones - to calm disruption. Wikidemon (talk) 03:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not want to escalate this or pick sides - but both of you are over the line on disruption right now. And both of you know better. Any unbiased look at the ANI thread shows that neither of you are being constructive about this at the moment.

You are a productive good faith editor, yes. That doesn't excuse this little blowup, however. Please don't do it again, or make this case worse.

Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:50, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

What "blowup"? Grsz¹¹ 03:56, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm with Grsz here, I asked on ANI on the now-archived thread, and you have not answered. GWH, what has Wikidemon done which appears to you to be aggressive or a "blow up", or in any way inappropriate? You keep accusing him and have offered no difs and answered no requests for clarity. KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

(ec - addressed to Georgewilliamherbert): I'm afraid you must be jumping to some conclusions without having all the facts available. I am doing the right thing. I know what I did, I thought about it carefully when doing it, and I believed and still believe it was the best course to keep the discussion page orderly and on track. I am not blowing anything up or doing anything at the moment - the brief matter on the Drudge Report talk report is long over and I am simply asking for time while gathering diffs to explain what happened. I do not sek CENSEI out. If you look at the recent history and his topic ban I was more kind to and generous to CENSEI than almost anyone else around here. But given his record it seems very likely that he will cause further trouble to articles on my watch list. The problem with equating helpful editors with tendentious ones, and give them like warnings, is that it is discouraging and punishing to editors for trying to help out. It also emboldens those who would cause trouble. Just hold on a bit, I think this will be a lot more clear when I have a chance to explain. Wikidemon (talk) 04:03, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

The very fact that Wikidemon has kept his cool after being equated with CENSEI proves there is no danger of any kind of "blow up." This is as shitty as it gets, he tries to disengage a disruptive, pointy editor and gets reprimanded for it??? If anything he deserves a barnstar, definitely not a threat to "block for disruption." Landon1980 (talk) 05:12, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Kept his cool? He threatened to take me to ANI after he removed someone elses comments on the talk page. CENSEI (talk) 12:55, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

You are in error. He stated if you didn't revert your action, which was edit warring over an inappropriate post which was neither to you nor by you, he'd report it. You chose to beat him to the punch. KillerChihuahua^?!? 13:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

69 ANI threads

Hi. As I wrote, CENSEI has reading problems. The list includes every 3RR report you've made and every comment you've made at ANI, regardless of who was involved in the incident.

The frightening thing is that, based on my experience with him, CENSEI "reads" sources as poorly as he reads search results. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 05:03, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Blunt Caution

Please do not refer to others comment as "ridiculous". If you disagree with someone you can articulate it without demeaning them in the process. I think the selection of photos all being one sided was noteworthy and not "ridiculous" as you state. Also, it is not "ridiculous" to point out that there are other interest groups who have an interest in the Obama page. Do you think that they don't care at all? Either way, you will not increase the integrity of the article by deleting discussion threads you don't like. Please refrain yourself in the future.

P.S. Please also sign your posts even on talk pages.

thank you. JohnHistory (talk) 20:54, 29 March 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory

No go, I don't need any advice here. I'll add my signature to my post but other than that I have given you blunt caution. You should read and heed it, or the advice of others, if you are going to stick around on this website. If not, fine. You won't last long.Wikidemon (talk) 21:21, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

E-mail

You've got a new one. Grsz¹¹ 00:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I see you aren't denying this WD...or should I call you Bryan! Grsz¹¹ 03:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Deny this! - Wikidemon (talk) 03:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Coultergeist

"Ann Coulter is a childhood friend of biracial American golfer, 2007 PGA tour leader, and unrepentant terrorist [[Tiger Woods]]"

Bwaaaahaaaahaaaahaaa! God, that was too damn funny. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Category sorting

Just a reminder that the DEFAULTSORT markup uses a colon, not a pipe; for example, {{DEFAULTSORT:Rigo, Pascal}} instead of {{DEFAULTSORT|Rigo, Pascal}}. —Paul A (talk) 01:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting that. Wikidemon (talk) 02:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

April 2009

Please don't troll my talk page. You've been asked repeatedly not to post on my page unless you need to call my attention to a discussion on an article talk page. Your behavior is disruptive and you've been warned many times. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:04, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Characterizing my notices as "trolling", my behavior as "disruptive", and your complaints as warnings, is vexatious and unreasonable. That is particularly given acute given that your protests come amidst an overall campaign to disrupt the Barack Obama talk page. As I have said many times, I will use your page for its appropriate purpose, including admonitions and notices, but have and will continue to avoid unnecessary chatter there. If you do not wish to be cautioned for disruptive behavior, stop engaging in it. Wikidemon (talk) 05:30, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I see your note on my page

I also see that you may be starting to see that my point #2 is correct. Support of Mrs. Clinton could be relevant information but the minor details of how is unimportant in the biography of President Obama.

Some people may say that even the Mrs. Clinton support is just a formality if it can be shown that the major candidates always support the winner in the end.

With Senator McCain, did Mr. Romney and Rev. Huckabee endorse him? Did Mr. Edwards endorse President Obama? Did Mr. Edwards endorse Senator Kerry in 2004? Did Mrs. Dole endorse Mr. Bush (W) in 2000? Even in the hotly contest 1980 race, Mr. Kennedy endorsed President Carter in the end (see "To get Kennedy's endorsement Carter was forced to make many policy concessions to the liberal senator" http://millercenter.org/academic/americanpresident/carter/essays/biography/3 )

All of the above is just commentary, not asking you to support any editorial changes. G7error (talk) 17:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes...of course. Thanks for making the effort to discuss with me. I never actually got to the substance before the conversation veered off the tracks. You'll find that if you reach out and are courteous, most (but not all) people will overcome any prickliness and they'll be receptive whether they agree or not. I took your two points as examples, not proposals, because that's what you said they were. Maybe your (to paraphrase) "I'm just commenting, not actually asking you make a change" self-introduction simply backfired because people are more afraid of comments than practical suggestions. Because it is an important article with many dozens of editors and thousands of pages of discussion over time, you'll find that modest incremental improvements like this one are a lot easier to address than issues that are bigger, more contentious, or impugn the sincerity or abilities of the body of editors. Anyway, feel free to participate in the discussion or editing - don't let us chase you away. Wikidemon (talk) 18:05, 5 April 2009 (UTC)